From the get-go, you have shown yourself to be friendly, open, and genuine. I believe that you are the perfect candidate to answer all those crazy questions that we always wanted to know the answers to but were too afraid to ask.
So I am respectfully requesting your permission to step forward and take on this prestegious calling. If you are willing, I will change the name of this thread to its true and proper name.
[ March 19, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
It wasn't meant to be a dobie! Really!
Someone asked for it...
*mourns at her misunderstood-ness* Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Sure! This sounds cool. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Man, what about us 27-year-old male heterosexuals?
This board has gotten so bigotted lately...
-Bok
Posted by The Cheat (Member # 5204) on :
<kicks Bono in the shins>
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Thanks, Telp.
Ok, I was thinking awhile back about single girlfriends I've had comlaining that they meet this awesome, cute, funny, sensitive, all-around wonderful guy, then find out that he only digs other guys.
Then I was thinking, dude, this must be how gays/lesbians feel all the time! The world must seem full of wonderful, interesting, attractive people who have very little likelihood of being attracted to you. Does that bug the heck out of you? Or do you see it as being not much different than a hetero guy who really likes hot chicks but can only get the moderately-hot chicks. (Had to throw that term in! It was just too perfect.)
Not a clear-cut question, just wondering your thoughts on this.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Well Beverly... Yah, I get frustrated all the time. There are tons and tons of beautiful nice smart boys out there... but the ones I'm attracted to aren't gay! Or they are only sortof bi and always say "Karl, if I went gay you'll be the first to know".
*sigh*
It's not like with straight peeps... they know from sight if someone is a woman or man and they have high odds that they will be attracted to each other. With the gay folk you have to play a guessing game all the time. That's why gay bars exist, to actually get enough gay folk in one place you actually have a chance to find someone. The problem is that most of these places are meat markets and hard to find true love there.
I find the best way to find a true love interest is at college or introductions through friends. You can still find people to date at the clubs, but you have to be really careful... or just expect it to be just superficial sex stuff.
That's the problem of only having 10% of half the population to work with.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Like I HAVE shins... I levitate!
-Bok
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Telperion, I have a strong sense that you will find what you are looking for. Keep your head on straight while you wait -- the real thing is worth it.
Your name is Karl? One of our most intelligent and thoughtful posters here is named KarlEd. You might get the chance to meet him sometime.
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
Karl posted on Tel's first thread.
I remember watching "Places in the Heart" as a teenager and wondered where married folks who commit adultery meet. (Sally Field's character had a sister whose husband was meeting with the schoolteacher. They were also Bridge partners...) At the time, the likelihood that I would ever like a guy who would like me seemed so remote, the idea of meeting yet another seemed totally bizarre. Still does.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hmmm, I see the plight, especially with not being able to tell from sight. And that makes sense about the bar scene. I guess any bar kinda has the rep of a place where people go to find non-commital sex.
What about other sorts of gatherings/communities/clubs? I fear to suggest meeting someone over the internet, but I have been impressed at this particular community. The people here meet in person on a fairly frequent basis. It makes meeting a whole lot safer than one-on-one meetings.
Here is an obscure example, but I like guinea pigs, cavys. Most people could care less about them. But through the miracle of the internet, cavy lovers are able to form online communities. Occasionally, these people who are near enough to each other will get together for a "pignic", a little gathering where the people and their piggies go to a nice park and eat lunch together.
I wonder if there are some cool internet communities out there for homosexuals that might get together in groups also. Takes some of the "scary" out of making online friends.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Yup yup... my real name is Karl.
Yah...I know that if I wait something good will turn up. It's hard waiting and waiting... I used to be all about "well if I can't find Mr. Right there is always Mr. Right Now!" But I think my massive slut days are over. I'd rather be single than be with someone who sucks. Or at least...sucks....well... erm.. heheh
Anyway, I've been single now for at least 4 years. I still have my flings now and then, but nothing that lasts for too long, unfortunatly. I don't go, personally, for the flamer girly type. I like guys and I want my men to be Men! But there are all type of people who like differnt things...
My dream is to find a mate, get married or whatever, get a house, and then maybe... maybe.. have children. Through adoption or finding a birth mother.
[ March 19, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
*phew*
Good thing I'm only 24!
All the same I'd have to agree with TelpTheSilv. For those of us homosexuals who are of the running-jumping-climbing-trees variety, it is even more difficult. I actually think that's part of the reason why some more feminine guys are as flamboyant as they are: with such a low probability of delivering your product to the right customer it probably helps to advertise a bit.
Another thing that sucks is having women fall all over themselves for you because they find you so damned attractive. It's like only getting noticed by your sister or something.
But essentially you are correct. It is physically and emotionally frustrating to grow up around plenty of gorgeous and intelligent people--especially the close ones--who would never ever notice you the way you longed to be noticed.
Which is why it's so important to be self-actualized and independent and to have a supportive community around you.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Wow, it seems like for a homosexual, just meeting anyone who could be a prospective is very, very difficult. Interesting point on the "advertising". I assume there are certain understood "codes" for advertising your sexual orientation to make this easier?
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
How much truth is there to "gaydar"?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Hmmmm... internet stuff. Yah, I know of several. Part of my downfall is that I'm terribly shy. At least at first. Once you get past the hard outer layer, I'm all warm and cute and sweet and talkative.
I'm shy of taking what I really want. Afraid of failure I guess...
That's why I'm friends with so many women. There is no fear or expectations. PLUS they like cuddles much more than my guy friends so it works out just dandy. I'm a big hug whore. And yes there is a difference between a prissy, flighty man and a gently, cuddly man.
I also suffer from terminal laziness...
What? You mean I have to WORK at a relationship? Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Not to depress you, but do you think 1) Since there are fewer gay people, the chances of finding someone of high quality and high-match are lower, relatively. 2) Gay people are, on average, of higher quality, so it's not any harder numbers-wise to find someone wonderful 3) You've never thought of this before, and think it's a silly idea.
and each of you. Name your biggest gay-related pet peeve concerning the thoughts/comments/questions of straight people.
BTW, do either of you have opinions on the validity of bisexuals? I know some bisexuals feel ostracized by both the straight and gay communities as not being able to 'choose one or the other.' I personally think this is tremendously silly.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Gaydar and advertising....
Well, gaydar is just means that you are paying attention to the signs of advertising. As John said one way to advertise is to keep the flame on, so to speak. I guess otherwise your only options are to be open about your sexuality often...or maybe just wear your freedom rings all day long! Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Give it up Keatster and marry me.
[ March 19, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Kama ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Bisexuals...
Hell yah they exist. I never understood why people can't comprehend or try to deni that it exists. I think bi folk are increadibly lucky... they can love just Humans... and not worry about if they are male or female! How wonderful!
I have so many female friends that would be perfect for me that I often wish I was bi. Never straight though... I could never give up the boys. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Suneun, on the whole gay ratio thing... I think that you might have something there. But I don't know if gay folk are on average higher quality...I wouldn't be surprized! They say left-handed peeps have certain mental gifts over and above... But I've also met some real sleeze-ball gay peeps in my life. I think it all has to do with what circles you surround yourself with. Hence my comment earlier about college being a good place to meet someone.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
But what about once you leave college? I mean I've had more trouble just making friends of either gender (except for Hatrack) since I've been out of college. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to actually find a relationship. Clearly a lot of straight people here have the same problem, which must be compounded by the lower gay population.
AJ
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Telp, you say you are shy at first, yet on this forum you have shown yourself to be friendly, open, easygoing, and charming. That is why I could see an internet group working so well for you. It is easier to open up when you aren't standing right next to someone in RL. Once you feel comfortable and know the people there a little better and a group of you gets together, you might have to deal with the shyness there at first, but I bet you could overcome it via the connections already formed. I dunno, just thinking aloud.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I know I have that problem. I can barely meet close friends outside of college. Real ones, let alone potential lovers... The opportunity for lascivious behaviour will never present itself.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Synth, I understand. I feel pretty lucky that I found someone while I was still in college. I think I would have had a really hard time if I didn't, because I have a really hard time building strong friendships. Those with whom I have become close are usually people who wanted to be friends with me badly enough to persist, get past my walls, and not be bothered by my introverted nature.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dang, How I wish someone lovely would pursue me... Providing they are not stupid or annoying... But ideal... But it never happens... Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
BannaOJ... you've hit the nail on the head. Once out of that almost perfect bubble it gets hard. That's why it's best to be as social with the friends you keep from college and from before you went. It's important to go to the clubs... or to any kind of gathering to meet people. It takes years sometimes to build up good connections and to make your mark.
Myself, I'm addicted to having a good time, so it's usually my regular club that I've been going to for the past 8 years. It's like my "Cheers". Part of the problem though is the "club drama" and slutty environment of many of these places. I still don't have the perfect solution to this problem... I mean... I could get laid any day of the week if I wanted to, but that's not my goal anymore.
And my club is becoming less and less of what I need. And I don't have a solution yet...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Some of the questions I ask here are going to reveal just how ignorant I am.
I have always wondered about jealousy and homosexuality. You see, if I am in a relationship with a guy and he starts flirting with a girl, that is pretty threatening. The girl represents an opportunity for him to have a relationship with someone else in a way that I never would. I could be friends with a girl, but not a sexual partner.
But when you are homosexual and you are feeling jealous of your lover possibly being interested in a certain someone, this could conceivably be a person that you have a secret attraction to yourself! I guess what I am saying is that there could be a strong possibility for a three-some or something like that. I know that there are groups out there consisting of a man and two bisexual women, and each person is attracted to both of the others in the group.
Again, not a clear cut question, but I welcome any comments, insight on this.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Bev... thanks for the compliment.
I can be open and all that here... because of the mask of the computer... This is not the true myself that I show to the world. It is a mask, and thus keeps my ego safer than if I was talking to you all face to face.
Of course, get a drink in my and I'll be this way irl too! I actually know how to handle a party with lots of people very well. I've gotten out of my shell over time and developed tricks to keep my shyness and low self-esteem in check...or at least not visable till I get comfortable.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Telp, I guess that the stereotype (and I personally thing there is some definite biological truth to it) has always been that men are more interested in sex than women. So when women are taken out of the equation, I guess it isn't too hard to score, eh? Well kudos to you for looking for something more substantial than that. I can certainly respect your decision!
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I disagree with your stereotype there beverly, but that isn't the point of the conversation <grin>
AJ
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Again for Bev...
Well... jealousy I think is different for everybody. I have been part of, in the past, threesomes and orgies and what have you. But that was during a time of sexual exploration when I was between the ages of 18 and 23.
Now I'm a very jealous boyfriend. I am NOT willing to share.... unless I am very very very confident in myself and my lover...
There is a difference between f**k buddies and lovers. Both are about the same in difficulty to find. A true f**k buddy will provide sexual joy without any hang ups in emotion. And of course we all know about a true love. True lovers will be your mate forever (hopefully). And there is a HUGE amount of emotion in-between. And of course you have the danger of a f**k buddy becoming the love of your life and not havning the feelings returned. Then this great thing turns into torture whenever you see them with other people.
At least... this is my feelings on the situation. I know swingers who are totaly happy having threesomes or being with other married couples and there is no rocking boats or hurt feelings. It all depends on the person.
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
What's the difference between a top and a bottom? (Other than the obvious, of course.)
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Bev, yes... guys are programed to be little sex machines. Ready at a moments notice. We have to be... the woman is only fertile once a month and we have to be ready!
That's why AIDS spread so fast in the gay community in the 70's and 80's. You have all this guys who like guys and they are all ready to have sex whenever there is a change in the wind...so you had/have all this sexual promiscuity.
Next question... Top and bottom deal with dominate and submissive personalities and sexual positions. Being a top is dominate... so you play the cop or master role. Bottom you play the slave role.
ALSO more commonly it means who takes it up the rear end. Tops give, and bottoms recieve, if you get my drift. Some are usually only one or the other, but many are both... willing to give and recieve. Some people, like myself, like to be more submissive but will NOT take it up the rear end. TOO painful and ...well... dirty. Oral is much better and intimate in my opinion anyway.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
AJ, I am with you on women having healthy libidos that is a good thing!! But I do think that a man is more likely to want non-commital sex than a woman. Heck, I have always hated the idea of NCMO (non-commital make-out). In my life, whenever I kiss a guy, it means commitment to me.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
OK beverly I see your point makes a bit more sense now.
AJ
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Meeting people online is not the way to go to find your gaymatch. Unless you managed to do it through a non-related medium such as Hatrack or otherwise.
The reason why I don't recommend this for gay guys is because local online communities based solely upon the kind of sex you're interested in are not likely to give you anything more meaningful than the kind of sex you're interested in--it is guys we're talking about, here. And it makes sense, because a lot of people in the gay community are only able to express themselves in anonymous kinds of situations like the internet because of their fear of judgement or inexperience or whatever. Basically, the people you find there are either just interested in getting it on or too afraid to be themselves that they lack the maturity to be in a healthy relationship in the first place.
The best thing to do is to have a take-no-prisoners approach to being yourself, whatever that cost may be, and let the chips fall where they may. You meet the best people through mutual friendships because, well... your friendships tend to be more mutual that way.
Sunuen:
quote:1) Since there are fewer gay people, the chances of finding someone of high quality and high-match are lower, relatively.
Somewhat. It's kindof an apples-->oranges situation, though. I've found that more evolved homosexuals are more likely to be decent people than your average heterosexual because of the struggles they've had to overcome in their lives, including anything from persecution to disownment to living with the reality of AIDS. Of course I'm a sucker for anybody who perseveres to overcome their sorrow. On the flipside, most people you meet are NOT all that evolved, and in the gay community it can seem even worse because so many of the contexts in which you can be comfortably public with the expression of your love are, well... meat markets. And that makes sense, too, since we're talking about men here, and it's known that men think about the nasty about 12 times as often as women do, and gay men in particular often come out of the closet and go right to the bedroom because their emotional/devotional energies have been repressed for any number of years.
Essentially you are correct. As far as the numbers are concerned it is much more difficult to find an appropriate match. That's why we all moved to San Francisco.
quote:2) Gay people are, on average, of higher quality, so it's not any harder numbers-wise to find someone wonderful.
I think I sort of addressed this in the last answer... but it's a totally unfair question. You should judge people independently on their own merits. While sexuality can play some role in determining what kind of person you are, your 'quality' really has nothing to do with the slots or tabs you prefer to use in the engineering of your relationships.
quote:BTW, do either of you have opinions on the validity of bisexuals?
They are mammals, too. <grin>
Of course they're valid. They even come in all shapes and sizes and temperaments. Most bisexuals that I know personally, though, tend toward the "guilty pleasure" side of the spectrum, and that's the reason I'd guess they ever have 'validation' issues in the first place. But how can anyone not love Lestat?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Ok I've asked this question before but it was at least a year ago when Queer Eye for the Straight Guy was in its infancy.
Do you think this show is more positive or negative in its repercussions in the gay community? Is it re-enforcing stereotypes or breaking them down?
AJ
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Hard to say... I don't watch it that often! But the episodes I have seen from the first season do show ALOT of sex. It's like trying to give away our tactical secrets! I think that in some ways it builds up the sterotypes... but it also shows the gay folk as complex humans. So I guess it's 50/50.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
I believe the best way to put it would be that the show familiarizes and desensitizes those stereotypes at the same time. The fact that they are injecting their stereotypes into a straight person's life and that the straight person is usually comfortable and grateful for it is desensitizing. The theatricality of the show just adds fuel to the flamers, so to speak.
Granted, I've only seen like two episodes (don't watch tv, as a general rule).
But then there are few stereotypes that didn't evolve out of some kind of truth.
[ March 19, 2004, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: JohnKeats ]
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
They asked about QEFTSG, not about QAF.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Next question: What do you think is the connection, if any, between being homosexual and being effeminate? I'm tired of hearing that a guy can't be sensitive, gentle, in theater, play with dolls, dance, be fashion-savvy, or any number of other things without being gay or suspected of being so.
Is there really a connection between these things, or is it a well-propigated myth? Are ultra-masculine men secretly afraid of "turning gay" when they mock these things? When will the "manly man" and the "effeminate man" learn to resolve their differences?
[ March 19, 2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
John, that makes sense about online communities. How sad. There should be a site called, "Gays Tired of Non-commital Sex"! Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Rock on Bev! You are super cool. You're right that it's a shame that guys are often encuraged to avoid anything with culture or high class or refinement for fear of being labled "effeminate". That's where this new term, the "metrosexual" comes in: straight dudes trying to get the same sterotypical refinement that the gay folk have.
I think that the effeminate behavior has two answers. One, that in the beginning of the gay rights movement only those people who were most different and could not stand to put on an act to operate in straight society were the first to come out. These were also the transgendered and the guys and gals who were born in wrong bodies. So this core began the modern day gay culture.
Birds of a feather flock together for protection...so when new peeps come out of the closet and socialize with the gay society they take on the traits of that culture to blend in and become one of the gang. Same thing when someone works with lots of people who swear like sailors... you'll start swearing too.
Second is that many guy guys are effeminate naturally. So maybe there is a biological thing there too.
[ March 19, 2004, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Alright my friends... I have to leave for today! I'll be back maybe late tonight and for sure tomorrow. Looking forward to answer more questions.
Peace, love, and harmony! Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Just for clarification, peeps=people?
Yeah, I wish that "macho" men weren't so hard on the more effeminate guys. Perhaps that change is coming.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
a lot of sex? Are we watching the same show? I watch it on Bravo in the unabridged version. I mean yes there is the occasional funny inuendo, but other than that?
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Banna, he was talking about Queer as Folk, a show on Showtime based on a British show. Basically, Sex in the City with gay men, and, believe it or not, more sex.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
ahhh *lightbulb* ok!
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I love Queer as Folk. It makes me wish I had Showtime the way the Sopranos makes me wish I had HBO. 90 times better than anything on network television. I just wish they had more minority queers... Some Asians and some blacks and hispanics as well...
Posted by ladyday (Member # 1069) on :
A general question about "out" culture vs. "in the closet" culture...
As an openly gay man, how would you feel if you met someone with great romantic possibility, but he was still in the closet? Would you still want to persue the relationship? Do you think you would encourage him to out himself?
Also, when is a person considered "out"? If all of a person's close friends, coworkers, etc. know, but not the person's parents and family, is he out? Are there "shades of out"?
How much time is reasonable between discovering/accepting that you are gay and coming out? Does a person who has known he is gay and has been dating men for, say, 10 years, but isn't out, set off alarm bells?
*really hopes not to offend*
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I thought "out" meant openly dating men in general. I guess starting with the definition of "out" is a good place to begin once they get back.
Teleperion and JohnKeats rock!
AJ
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
You know the ambiguously gay duo...
Well are they?
Great to have you back Caleb! Jeez, now that I got used to the other name, you bring back the Keats one...
Well whatever format you are in its welcome here.
Oh and Telperion, good to have you on hatrack. As far as I am concerned, the more diversity the better, and of course having another actual gay person to have the concervatives have to face intead of just having them be abstract shadow figures (just some conservatives, not you specifically, don't argue please!).
Hope you stick around.
[ March 19, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Xavier ]
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
What is the best way for an adult to support a closeted gay teen?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I agree with you Xav, knowledge leads to understanding. Ignorance leads to prejudice.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Do girls often try to convert you? (to heterosexuality, I mean)
Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
Romany, as far as I'm concerned, the best way to support anyone, especially a teenager, is to make him or her completely certain that you care about their life. My response encompasses a couple of threads woven into this one, and I apologize in advance for stepping into this, as I am not a 27 Year Old Male Homosexual, but rather a currently hetero-leaning bisexual 39 year old woman.
When I was a confused teenager, I remember watching "10," and thinking Bo Derek was incredible. One of my older female cousins said to me, "Isn't she wonderful? I'd love to hold her." That was a valiation of what I felt, but didn't know I was allowed to feel. My cousin knew what I was feeling, but didn't want to force the issue, only acknowledge that what I felt was valid.
That particular cousin was fairly upfront about everything, however, I don't feel it's necessary to bring up the subject of sexuality to show support of a sexual orientation.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I know we joke about it, but is Gaydar still being used, or did the devices never take off?
And do you guys, personally, believe that raising a child in a homosexual household is equal to raising a child in a heterosexual household, or that it's a little less than ideal, but still better than the average, imperfect hetero home? Or something else?
What's with the phrase "Good Times"? I hear it from straight friends now, but about five years back, I only heard it from gay friends (all in different parts of the country). Did it originate as a subtle way to "advertise"?
And what's the deal with antiques? I lived in Vermont, and those freaking shops were everywhere.
And I have to say, this is an entertaining thread. You guys rock. And you, too, bisexual woman.
[ March 22, 2004, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Frisco ]
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
I have a few questions too, but first, an advertisement:
Would you guys be offended if I made a list of my homosexual friends/aquaintences who are looking for long term relationships? ClaudiaTerese has the Matchmaker thing sort of locked up, but maybe she'd be willing to let me sub-let the homosexual section? It's a niche market that I seem to be perfect for, having uncanny Gaydar myself.
Does anyone else find it interesting that of our three actively-posting male homosexuals, TWO are named Karl?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
(Know any nice girls or boys? It doesn't matter to me, as long as they are not goons)
A twink is a young skinny man.. Like Justin on QAF... 18, but looks a bit younger.. I think someone bight have a better definition...
Posted by jack (Member # 2083) on :
quote:Does anyone else find it interesting that of our three actively-posting male homosexuals, TWO are named Karl?
Hmm, and I thought they were all named Mark, Rich or Steve and had track lighting.
[ March 21, 2004, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: jack ]
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:TWO are named Karl
My friend once made a prank phone call to the gay bar downtown on a dare. The dare was to call the bar and ask for Bruce. The guy who answered wanted to know "which one."
I must admit that I've been on a "date" with a gay guy. I thought it would just be two buddies having a night out on the town, but he took me to Nordstrom and had me try on shoes.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Caleb, you look maahvelous.
Frisco: I definitely have seen the Gaydar at work, and I've had touches of Gaydar-sense before. A semi-closeted gay friend has asserted that he has 'impeccable' gay-dar, often guessing a person's gayness before that person comes out.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
No, I mean actual Gaydar. It's a device that vibrates when other similar devices are in the vicinity.
Last I saw, it was being marketed as a keychain.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Okay, Syn... How old are you and where are you? Geography can suck when it comes to internet love And I don't think I really know any femmes of the appropriated inclinations. I do, However , have a really sweet and nice brother-in-law, who is in his early twenties. He's a gamer, and he's shy. He seems to fall for artistic types (read: nutcases ).
Actually, you might wanna try the matchmaker thread. I knew several lesbian girls in HS (though they weren't out at the time) but I have completely lost touch with them all. Oddly enough, they were all named Amy (Aimee, Ami, etc.).
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I know I'm a borderline luker half the time, but sheesh! Why do all the interesting threads start when I'm not looking?
(Hi TTS! Nice first name. )
Regarding online dating: Most of the sites set up for gay men to meet are sites for hooking up for sexual purposes. It isn't easy to meet people for long-term purposes on those sites since many of them are just looking for sex. Also many of them are looking for it online because they are either too closeted to go to the bars or are cheating on their wife, partner, or boyfriend. Others are not interested in anything but playing around. However, that said, those sites are not entirely useless. Most of them let you post a photo and most let you include a profile. Many men will put x-rated photos and profiles listing only what type of sex they want. However, others will put face photos and what their interests are and sometimes specifically state that they are interested in a long-term relationship (LTR).
Also, there are many sites for gays to meet that aren't specifically sexual in nature. Gay.com is one, I think. And I think there are also non-sexual personals at planetout.com.
On a personal note, my current boyfriend and I met online. We chatted and decided to meet, and the first thing we did was go see a movie. Now it's 9 months later and we're sharing an apartment. I know it's quick, but I've never been with anyone as compatible as he and I are.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Would I pursue a relationship with someone who was closeted? At this point in my life, probably not. If I was very attracted to them and we got along well, I would do all I could to encourage them to come out, but if they were adamant about remaining in the closet, I'd have to move on. Life it too short to waste it hiding from people. And nowadays it's usually no big deal to come out as far as work or friends are concerned. Family is a different issue, but regardless of the reaction if you can't be yourself to your family then what good is the relationship you're (supposedly) trying to protect anyway?
I have a gay friend right now who is VERY closeted. It's a bit rediculous because he'd set off even the some of the weakest gaydar out there. But he's afraid of his family finding out. And his work. And his friends. He keeps his straight friends segregated from his gay friends, and for this reason, I think, he doesn't have a lot of gay friends. He also longs desperately for a LTR, but no self-respecting gay man is going to put up with living in his closet so he ends up with a series of one-night-stands and clandestine interent hookups. Chris and I are trying to maintain a friendship with him because he's a nice guy and deserves better than he is allowing himself. But he'll never be happy until he is OUT.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
[has never had a girl try to convert him] Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Like John, I've given off quite a few of false positives. I almost think I've been hit on by more guys than girls over the years. But, really, I think it has more to do with guys being a lot less subtle. Or maybe I'm more able to pick up on the signals? Or maybe I just think an awful lot about myself Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Now I have wondered women trying to convert gay men to hetersexuality. I don't doubt that some of it is the idea "He hasn't met *me* yet".
But I wonder if there might be more to it. It seems to me that more and more our culture is saying that the best kind of man for women to be in a relationship with is a man that you think might be gay, but who turns out to be straight. Maybe some women are attracted to gay men because they are trying to avoid the stereotypical straigt man -- obnoxious, drunk, and watching football and porn.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
25 by the way. It would be nice to have a man I could chill with who would be nice to cuddle and not neassasarily get all fresh... What do you think of women who are into things like yaoi and slash? That is a fascinating phenomenom
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
It does seem like girls and gay guys make great friendships. Gay guys can be close and emotionally intimate with a girl and unintimidated because there is no romantic possibility. Emotional intimacy is just the sort of thing many girls long for from their straight-guy love interests. A girl may look at that and think, "This is exactly what I want in a boyfriend!" So she begins to pine after this man who will never think of her that way. I can't help but feel for those girls, being a girl myself.
Sorry about the lack of girl groupies, KarlEd. If you have had close girl friends, they may have pined after you and you not known about it.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
You know I'm right for you.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
*winks at KarlEd*
Syn, my brother-in-law is into Anime, and I think he's gleaned from my collection that I like Yaoi, though not so much the explcit kind. I really liked Descendants of Darkness:
Sort of like the X-Files in the afterlife, with mildly subtextual boy/boy romance. Plus, vampires, demons, mad scientists... Golly, Anime is fun!
Anyway, to you Male Homosexual posters, I'm curious about Syn's question, too. I mean about Yaoi, Slash and why it seems to be largely produced by heterosexual females. Do you think it's silly, or do you even know what I mean?
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I've found it the opposite, most of my female friends are either lesbians or bi (I'm a straight female). However, I know two openly gay guys (our school is MUCH crueler to homosexual guys than girls, is that normal?) and am not friends with either of them, even though I know them both fairly well.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Ladyday:
quote:As an openly gay man, how would you feel if you met someone with great romantic possibility, but he was still in the closet? Would you still want to pursue the relationship? Do you think you would encourage him to out himself?
Also, when is a person considered "out"? If all of a person's close friends, coworkers, etc. know, but not the person's parents and family, is he out? Are there "shades of out"?
There are different levels of ‘out’. In my case being ‘out’ means that everybody who really knows me is aware of it. I don’t wear freedom beads or rainbow buttons or anything like that (I do have an earring, though… does that count?). And I’m not all that obvious so I generally have to be asked. When I’m asked I always tell the truth. I don’t feel the need to make people unnecessarily uncomfortable so I pretty much keep it to myself as long as it doesn’t cost me anything. My most extreme example of that would be my father’s entire family. I fully intend to have ‘the talk’ with my dad eventually—though it’s more than possible that he already knows—but I’d prefer to wait until after my grandparents kick the bucket. They are VERY old-fashioned and I respect and love them way too much to burst their bubble about who I am. And I don’t want to cause a heart attack, either. The general rule outside of that one context is that if I care about you than you know about it. Or if you ask about it I’ll tell you. I have a fairly open-minded workplace so that’s easier for me to do. I’ve been in other work situations where it would not be okay to be honest about yourself, however, and I wouldn’t immediately judge anybody who decided to keep their private life and their public life slightly separated. It isn’t for me, but there was a time when it was and I can certainly understand that.
The deal breaker on outness, for me, is whether or not you lie about it. Or perhaps more specifically, whether or not you are motivated by fear or shame to keep yourself hidden from the world. There wouldn’t be much romantic possibility for me with somebody who was of two minds with themselves. I would only encourage somebody to out themselves if they had already decided they wanted to do it. I would encourage anybody to accept themselves and take an active role in their destiny. It is the acceptance of self that allows one to stand before his peers and be immune to judgment.
But coming out is different for everybody. I know a guy who, as a teenager, one day tore down all of his Madonna posters and replaced them with Leonardo Di’Caprio posters. Can’t get much more obvious than that. For me there was no party or parade or changing of the guard. Just an excrutiatingly honest moment with somebody I cared about too much to let go without knowing the truth, even though I knew it would cost me a lot more than I wanted to pay.
Romanylass:
quote:What is the best way for an adult to support a closeted gay teen?
The teen will most likely have self-esteem issues, so one of the best things to do would be to help build on that in whatever way is most applicable to the individuals involved. Unfortunately I can’t really be more specific than that because I never had the luxury of a supportive authority figure or a community that did not ostracize the idea of homosexuality. I’ve heard that PFLAG is a pretty good group to go to for that kind of thing. I’m sure there are other groups as well. School counselors north of the Mason Dixon line would have resources to recommend (and some south, too). You could also seek resources or advice from groups like the Human Rights Campaign.
Aka:
quote:Do girls often try to convert you? (to heterosexuality, I mean)
Is that an offer?
I wouldn’t say often, but it does happen. I get hit on a lot by women but they usually back down in disappointment when I tell them why they’re not even on my short list. Most of them are quite cool with it, though, because as we discussed earlier, many women enjoy having nonsexual intimacy that their hetero counterparts are all too often incapable of providing.
Frisco:
quote:I know we joke about it, but is Gaydar still being used, or did the devices never take off? What's with the phrase "Good Times"?
I’ve never seen one. They are not really necessary. I used to use the phrase ‘good times’ back in high school, along with everyone else. Most of them straight. You are just behind on the times.
Olivet:
quote:Would you guys be offended if I made a list of my homosexual friends/aquaintences who are looking for long term relationships?
First of all, those pictures are pretty old. I’ll see if I can send you some newer ones later today.
Secondly, I wouldn’t be offended; I’d be embarrassed. Though if you can find me a nice Scorpio between 20 and 28, maybe we can talk. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
You're actively looking for a Scorpio???
(Not that I follow Astrology or anything, but my ex was a Scorpio. )
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
It's something about the way their minds work; I'm a sucker for it. I've dabbled in astrology quite a bit, actually... one of my favorite resources is the Personolgy guide, the first edition of which focusses on each day of the year and comparison biographies of famous individuals who were born on that day throughout history. The second edition is a relationship guide that does the same thing, only with the weeks of the year. It can give you insight into any relationship with anybody, basically, from friends to lovers to family members.
Scorpios can be a piece a work, but to an Aquarius such as myself they are somewhat mutable and very conducive to personal and spirituatl growth.
Er... back to your regularly scheduled Mormonism.... Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
The poet in me is interested in astrology in theory but the skeptic in me supplies the grains of salt. But that said, I have to say that Chris and I (both Sagittarius) are about as compatible as two people can possibly be. I get along better with him than I do with myself.
Oh, and for anyone interested, I was mostly joking about the implication of dissappointment that I've never had a woman try to convert me. It's like the straight guy who wonders why none of his gay friends hit on him. Is he not attractive? What?
[ March 23, 2004, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
*shrugs*
It's a science that's been around much longer than any of today's modern religions. At the least you can say that everything carries some characteristics lent to it by the time in which it exists, from wine to politics to people and their personalities.
Whether or not the cycles of the universe are related to the cycles of humanity is another question. I found the possibility intriguing enough to look into it. After a while you can start guessing people's birthdays with reasonable accuracy, and that's always fun.
Note that I do not subscribe to horoscope-styled astrology. People are individuals first and organized into classes second. You'll find no value in the horoscope section of your Sunday paper.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Thanks JK. I'll set her up with the local PFLAG, luckily here in the Seattle area they advertise in all the papers. This young lady, 16, goes to church with me and I'm the first adult in the congregation she came out to. Unfortunately, she will have to set up alternative living arrangements before coming out to her dad.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
That's really tough, romanylass, and I feel for all involved. PFLAG is a really good idea in this case, because it's a community of parents and friends and they can possibly help her deal with the situations she'll face in her own household.
Hopefully she'll come out unscathed.
[ March 23, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: JohnKeats ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
(Random tangent)
You know, while I don't personally believe in astrology, I find it a lot more interesting than, say, the Chinese years. I mean really, are they trying to tell me that everyone born in a certain year is going to have anything in common? That is a bit much to swallow. I think of kids in my grade growing up. It is laughable.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
That's exactly what I always thought. How can it possible that everyone I went to school with all had the similar personalities and were best suited to date people who were five grades up from us?
But I realize that my knowledge of the Chinese astrological calendar is limited to what I've read on placemats at Chinese restaurants. And considering that they rarely get the FOOD to be authentic, I wouldn't exactly say that I'm an expert on it.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Any astrology based solely on a person's sun sign is woefully incomplete.
Reading a person's birthchart is much more interesting... It can "explain" why a Virgo like me tends to be so disorganized (Hint: it may have something to do with 4 of the other planets being in Libra, perhaps?)
-Bok
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
And me having several planets in Scorpio might also have something to do with why I love the way their minds work, too.... Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Caleb, I know they're old, but geez-- you never talk to me any more. *focusses guilt ray on Caleb*
Plus, you guys are ignoring the questions about slash and yaoi, et al, so *claps hands* Chop, chop!
[ March 23, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Olivet ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
That site has your answer Olivet. I googled it cause I had NO CLUE what you guys are talking about.
Of course I am still a 22YOM Heterosexual, but I have google, and am a little disappointed I can't answer the questions in this one...
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Freedom rings?
Oh...and one day I wore a silver ring...it only fit on my ring finger and I wore it on my right hand...and a gay friend of mine told me to put it on another finger.
Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
quote:Syn, my brother-in-law is into Anime, and I think he's gleaned from my collection that I like Yaoi, though not so much the explcit kind. I really liked Descendants of Darkness:
Sort of like the X-Files in the afterlife, with mildly subtextual boy/boy romance. Plus, vampires, demons, mad scientists... Golly, Anime is fun!
Olivet, you have just become even cooler than you already were in my book.
~Jane~
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
I have a question:
Why do gay men love me so much? Caleb, we've spent time together. Do you have any answers?
I live in a community with a high percentage of gay people. I swear I can't walk down Hawthorne street without getting checked out or talked to at least three times.
And I am NOT the stereotypical pretty boy. I am too thick around the middle, lost my abs years ago, and have too many scars on my face.
What is it about me that they love so much?
Caleb, I didn't know you were gay back when we were hanging out, but I never noticed you checking me out. So, given that you are immune to my charms, can you give me an unbiased answer on this question? I would really appreciate it.
Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Thanks, JaneX! Though I don't really get why that would make me cool.
However, You can get Descendants of Darkness on Netflix, and I reccommend playing it with Japanese dialogue and subtitles. The English dubbing just seems funny. For one thing, the little owl guy has this serious, deep voice, even though he's obviously a comic character. And in the English, the characters do a lot of unneccessary explaining ("so I chased him down" as we are watching a flashback of somebody chasing somebody else, and catching them. DUH.)
Xavior: Thanks for the site. There was a lot there, and most of it I didn't know. Lot more complex than it seems. Still not sure I understand it, though.
Slash, hon, lots of gay men like the manly men, and, soft middle or not, that's what you are. Plus, scars only add to that particular aura. Our buddy Nash has the same sort of experience. He sort of looks like a Russian mobster, but he has this... thing about him that says "I have nothing to prove."
But I know that doesn't really answer your question, as I'm not a gay man, though certainly immune to your charms. Posted by Pippin (Member # 6042) on :
Synesthesia, are there any pic of you on the net that i could see Posted by JaneX (Member # 2026) on :
quote:Thanks, JaneX! Though I don't really get why that would make me cool.
Because you like yaoi. I thought it was just a teenage girl thing, since all the other yaoi fans I've met are teenage girls. But see? There are mature women out there who like yaoi, too.
~Jane~
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Synth, I didn't know what Yaoi was till I googled it just now.
I guess this must be the female response to hetero guys liking girl/girl action. Maybe most flesh'n'blood males just are not beautiful enough to make it worth a girls while. Bishis are eye candy!
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
KarlEd, Halla thinks Nero is pretty cool, if that's any consolation.
JohnKeats, my theory is that gay guys are especially attractive to girls because they will be your friend without ever giving you the feeling they are hitting on you. The absence of pressure is very interesting, perhaps... the emphasis on friendship. And maybe girls like a challenge, too.
Slashy, I imagine gay guys like you for the same reason girls do! Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Great thread, and I love the fact that everyone has been ...well,polite, for lack of a better word.
You know, I usually avoid all the various gay threads here at hatrack, for a couple of reasons. First, I tend to judge people on how they act (or here on-line, what they say), and not just as a label, and so I avoid thinking about people's sexuality in an attempt to aviod labeling them. Second, The threads seem to get everyone all riled up here.....sometimes a little too riled up. I come here to hatrack because I enjoy talking to (or sometimes talking AT) most of the people here, and I don't like it when people get all fired up with each other. I am not shy, nor do I fear an argument, but I hate it when all intelligence seems to flee and flame wars break out.
Also, to be honest, I have had a problem with gay men a few times in my life, and that soured me to what I viewed as the gay lifestyle. I try to realize that you can't over-generalize with any group, gay or straight, and I try to respect other views, even when they aren't in agreement with my own, but sometimes I catch myself feeling uncomefortable for no apparent reason, simply because I am in a discussion about gay rights, or behavior, or whatever.
So I am somewhat suprised to find myself in here, and even more in here with something to say.
Most of my recent friendships with gay men have been good friendships, but that wasn't always the case. I currently live near Northampton, Ma, which is the home to the largest population on lesbians in the US (I think....if not, it's real close), and there are a lot of gay men in the area as well. I went to a gay bar with a friend from school one day, without knowing it was a gay bar. It was one of the most uncomfortable situations I have ever experienced, as I am not gay, nor had I ever been exposed to that lifestyle before. My friend assumed I knew he was gay, and was suprised to find that I wasn't gay. His so-called gaydar had told him that I was gay, and he assumed that my offer of a drink was a pass.
Well, I was very upset. I am a very outgoing person, not shy at all, and I knew I wasn't gay, but trying to convince some of Danny's "friends" of this was impossible. Danny was mortified, and was fine with it, but his "friends" were completely obnoxious. They said I was in Denial, and that I was gay EVEN IF I WOULDN'T ADMIT IT TO MYSELF!
Now, I was a psych major, so I knew that some people ARE in denial, but I had never (and still don't) been attracted to a man, so I knew I wasn't gay. But how do you prove it, at least to others? You can't.
I read a lot. I love kids. I love puppies, and classical music.....for Christ sake, I played flute for 11 years! It wasn't the first time I had been called gay, or had my sexuality questioned.
I AM different, but different doesn't mean you're gay. However, nothing I said made a difference to them, so after a half hour of this I stood up to leave.
Then one of the guys grabbed my butt. I knew he was drunk, but I didn't care.I slapped his hand away, and he took a swing at me, calling me a tease! It turned ugly, and the police were called. I got out of there just in time, and had to call for a ride for the first time in my life, as my car was still 30 miles away.
I know, intellectually, that most men, gay or not, aren't pigs, but it took me years to stop hating gay men because of this incident. I was aware of my prudjuce, but that didn't mean it went away. I was raised to be tolerant of other people, but I had to work at it.
Danny was arrested, as were 3 of his friends. He refused to name me as the guy who threw the first punch, but he never really spoke to me again. As far as I know he still thinks I was lying to him about my sexual orientation.
Gaydar isn't infallable, any more than straight guys are infallable when figuring out which women are sexually interested in them. How many times have you been wrong about that (or had a man be wrong about you if you are a woman) in your life?
I am still straight (no suprise there), and I am now married to JenniK. I have relatives who are gay (including one who was the president of the dancers union on Broadway) and I love them and wish them happiness. I have friends who are gay, and are very open about it, and the only rule I have for them is "don't offer too much info.", which I try to follow myself. I don't want to hear about their sex life, and I know they don't want to hear about mine.....
Take my word for it, gaydar is a myth, and a dangerous one at that. You can play flute, love kids and dogs, be respectful of others and still NOT be gay. I don't know any other way to be than the way that I am, and I don't want to find another way, thank you very much. I love the fact that I am different.
I just find it sad that some people assue that they know your sexual orientation because of those type of things, and label you gay, even if you aren't.
Kwea
P.S. I know they were idiots.....and that most people aren't like that. Most of my friends who are gay are very respectful, but even they talk as if they can tell by osmosis sometimes....and that bothers me....
[ March 25, 2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
When H is Orange, Syn.
When am I gonna get mine?!??!???
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
When H? I seem to have a collection of friends who are into Yaoi... One is even a lesbian. Which is extremely interesting. Yaoi is quite nice as long as it's not about Japanese rockstars that are real people. That just squicks me. And sadly I do not have a picture of me on hand.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Kwea, maybe gaydar in your case just means that men find you outrageously attractive and some of them can't help themselves but go after you.
Trying to put a positive angle on your bad experience.
As you know, the problem you dealt with is disrespectful people, not gay people. Bars in general are not exactly the first place you'd go to find especially respectful people. There are just as many predatory homosexuals as there are predatory heterosexuals. At least proportionally.
Slash:
Um, I've been avoiding answering your question... could you tell? Frankly I'm not sure why you get hit on all the time. I already knew you were married way before we met so it wouldn't have crossed my mind to come on to you, had I been interested. Nor would I have been able to do so back then, anyway. Plus, you're what... 20 years older than me? Might it have something to do with the sign on your back that says "go ahead, make my day"?
And Olivet, I'd never heard of Yoai-Maui-Wowee-whatchamacalit before this thread so I couldn't answer any of those questions either. Today I'll have the tools I need to take my pictures from my camera to my computer, so I can follow up with recent pics tonight.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Kwea, sorry you had that experience. As you said, though, it's not representative of gay men in general. I, too, dislike much of the lifestyle of gays who spend every weekend at the bars. But that is hardly the lifestyle of the majority of gay men, at least in my experience.
Olivet, I'm going to have to check out Decendants of Darkness on Netflix. I've never heard of Yaoi before. I'm just now getting into Anime via Chris, though he's only dabbled in it as far as I can tell, and I don't think he's heard of Yaoi either.
quote: Slash, hon, lots of gay men like the manly men, and, soft middle or not, that's what you are.
I know that's why I'm smitten with you. Posted by Olivet (Member # 1104) on :
Caleb, I'll be happy to fix my pix of you, given the opportunity. We should talk sometime. I 've been wondering how you're getting on.
KarlEd, Hope you like it. I'd love to hear what you thought of it after you see it. I do reccommend seeing it in Japanese with the subs the first time. The dubbing isn't bad, but I guess I'm a purist. Plus, they call the main characters "Shinigami" which just sounds better than guardians of death or whatever they translated it as.
Beware of albino Mad Scientists in Red Earrings. *snort*
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
To answer some questions:
Shades of being out of the closet...Yah, I think there are shades. Coming out is kinda like being reborn. You have to realize and accept it for yourself and then once you are fine with that you break out and re-teach those around you who you are. So you can be out to yourself, out to your lover, out to your friends, out to your family and then all of the above. Another step beyond that is out to the people you work with (not nesessarily being obvious or loud about it, but when people ask you tell them the truth and it's ok).
How to help a gay teen... well if you are their parent to have a family talk about sexual orientation and that whatever grade they are is ok by you.
Do I get girls trying to convert me to hetero... Heheh... yes I do. ALL the time! Girls dig me and I dig them too. There is no fear or expectation with them so I can treat them all as my sisters. I can be very flirtatious with them because I love attention and cuddles, and they are happy to share that. Of course you have grades of "fish". You have your "icky fish" and your "nice-clean-yummy fish". Aka: fag hags and girlfriends. 'Fag hags', in a harse interpretation of the title, are gals who REALLY want a gay man as a lover and will cling to him in a very annoying and scary way. 'Girlfriends' are your good buddies who are chicks. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Your parents named you beverly? I hope they aren't surprised that you turned out gay!
Just kidding. I know you started this for TtS, but it must be confusing for newbies.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Story about this whole gay Karl's thing... Growing up I had the most unique name. Not only was Carl a rare name, but I had the super cool german spelling of Karl. I never ever met another Karl, let alone a Carl, till I was about 18. Then I get to college. And there are three Karl's there. And ALL of us are gay! Crazy!
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I hope that works...
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Why the straight female fascination with male homosexuals? Why didn’t beverly start an “Ask the 27 Year-Old Wanker” thread? Do straight people actually believe that male homosexuals have a more meaningful worldview than male autosexuals?
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I've only known one other Karl, and he was a "Karl Ed" also. But he was married and had a kid.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Good one skillery... autosexual That's great!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hey, Telp, just want to welcome you back. I have been extremely busy these past few days and shall continue to be for the next little while. But I just wanted to pop in for a moment and say "hi" to everyone.
Pooka: Yes, it is confusing. I'm 29.
[ April 06, 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Thanks Bev! Good to see you too!
Posted by AnonymousNC (Member # 1544) on :
Interesting Thread! I am a straight girl - girl nothing I'm 40 - but I'm obsessed with so called gay culture. Am I the only one? Why am I obsessed?
One of my best friends (a guy) that I had known since 1st grade came out to me in high school though I had already figured it out. Hence I was his partner in first going to the bars, buying his first porn mag for him, going to San Francisco, etc...Through this I made lots of gay friends and hung out with lots of gay guys for years - just a few these days. Unfortunately my good friend came out in 1979 just before the safe sex revolution and he died without seeing his 30th birthday.
But back to my so called question - I seem to be obsessed with gay culture. I LOVE QAF and can't wait for the new season. Any movie with a gay theme sucks me in. The "boy meets boy" bachelor type dating show last year had me in tears for poor James etc... While I do watch "The L Word" on Showtime, it is gay men shows etc... that I really obsess on.
I feel like Debbie on QAF but I don't have a gay son to explain my obsession!
Of course, this is far from my only interest but I have noticed that any show/movie that comes out with a gay theme ends up on my can't miss it list.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ok, Telp, now that you're back (and I have some spare time again, wheee!) it's time for my next question! ^_^ (Of course, anybody's insights are welcome too, but this *is* Telperion's thread after all....)
Ok, I think I know ahead of time that this is going to sound like rambling. Here goes. I am trying to understand better the mechanics of guy-guy attraction. If I understand correctly (and I probably don't) men-folk tend to be turned on by visual images. I have heard so many men talk about how being attracted to women makes sense. They're curvy, soft, and pleasing to look at. They can't understand why women are attracted to men because they just don't seem like much to look at.
In such conversations I usually go off on some explaination on how it's not so much how the guy looks that turns us gals on, but the essence of their masculinity. It's the feel of their more solid musculature, their deep voice, their rugged whiskers. Yes, the looks are part of it, but it is not so crucial to the functions of female attraction. They don't have to look so "pleasing" to have that masculine allure.
Also, a lot of guys in my life have confessed to me that in their young teens they went through a period of time in which they were attracted to guys. It often freaked them out, but subsided and the attraction to females was, in the end, much stronger. But a lot of these same guys later in life expressed a complete confusion on how a guy can find another guy attractive (or a girl for that matter, as already stated).
On the otherside, as a female, I have no trouble understanding the allure of femaleness. I was fascinated by what C.S. Lewis had to say in his book "That Hiddeous Strength". There was a married couple with a rather rocky marriage receiving sage advice. The man mentioned how the female form is so universally attractive that even other women are fully aware of it, influenced by it. I remember thinking, "Oh, so I am not the only one?" I honestly think that if I believed it were most right and proper to be attracted to women, I could do it. I have no desire or inclination to encourage such tendancies, so I don't. I don't know how common it is for people to feel this way.
So then jump to my first love who I later found out was bisexual. I had had very little experience with anything but heterosexuality before this situation. I knew he had been physically attracted to me, I had plenty of evidence of that, but years after we had gone our separate ways, it seemed he preferred pairing up with other guys. (He really reminded me of Josif in "Songmaster").
I pondered this and decided in my own mind that most homosexuality is a form of bisexuality that leans more towards same-sex attraction. It was actually an education to me reading about the OSC's character Zdorab in the Homecoming series. I hadn't considered men finding females sexually repugnant. I began pondering this new concept. The homosexuality discussions on Hatrack have further influenced my perspective on the world.
So help me out here, Telp, KarlEd, John Keats, and any others that have experience in this issue. When a man is truly homosexual, does he not find women alluring at all? Help me, please to understand this. I know it is impossible for you to fully explain, like trying to describe the color "octarine" in Terry Prachett's universe. I also realize that different homosexual individuals could have very different perspectives on this.
The female form sends such powerful messages to heterosexual men. Is that message totally lost on homosexual men when even other women can feel it? Or is homosexuality usually an extreme form of bisexuality where men are highly prefered over women? (I guess this leans over into the "women trying to convert gay men" topic.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
JohnK and KarlEd: Thanks, I agree that bars are full of pushy people of various sexual orientation.
One of the thinks I learned about myself was that I don't like PDA's from anyone, at least not of that nature. I get ansy around them, even if the couple is hetro.....but more so if they are gay. I don't mean holding hands, or even a quick peck or three.....I do that with my wife all the time. But I guess it comes down to class....if you want to simulate sex, why not just rent a room and have it there??? That way I don't see it....
I think I am pretty open-minded now, but I would be lying if I said I was completely comfortable with it. I do respect others, no matter what their beliefs are, as long as they respect mine as well.
And I really like the fact that I can have this discussion here without having someone being offended (I hope!). Real discussions are how things like this get resolved, IMHO.
Kwea
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: When a man is truly homosexual, does he not find women alluring at all?
Hmmm, interesting question. This really begs the question as to what you would consider "truly homosexual". I mean, if you take that to mean "only attracted to men", then clearly a "true" homosexual does not find women alluring.
Personally, I believe the Kinsey's got it right that sexuality is a broad spectrum. I think very few people fall to either extreme where they find one sex to actually be repugnant. I consider myself homosexual, but I can appreciate a beautiful woman. And I actually find breasts to be a nice feature on a woman but even the most beautiful breasts don't get a "rise" out of me (so to speak).
Could I have sex with a woman in order to save the species? It's not inconceivable, but more likely than not I'd be thinking of Collin Farrell the whole time. Does that make me less than a "true" homosexual? I don't think so.
Your question also begs the question, what do you mean by "alluring"? If it means "want to go to bed with", then no, I don't find any women I know alluring. However, there are women I find attractive in an aethetic sense. I think Queen Latifa is beautiful and her persona always comes across and strong and sexy. I bet she'd be fun to hug, too. And given the opportunity, I'd love to hang out with her. But the attraction isn't sexual (at least not on any level obvious to me).
I could probably explain more, but I'm not sure if I'm answering your question. Care to rephrase?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Also, a lot of guys in my life have confessed to me that in their young teens they went through a period of time in which they were attracted to guys.
This is completely normal.
It is a completely normal and necessary stage of development to go through a time of attraction to the same sex, even for people who are wildly far into the hetero side of the spectrum. It's completely normal for both sexes. For some people it lasts one minute, for other people it can last five years, but that moment is just part of developing sexuality.
[ April 07, 2004, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: I have heard so many men talk about how being attracted to women makes sense. They're curvy, soft, and pleasing to look at. They can't understand why women are attracted to men because they just don't seem like much to look at.
Well, I think you have to entertain the possibility, too, that many of the men who've expressed this to you are being somewhat disingenuous. Personally, I don't think that the men who buy "Men's Fitness" magazine are all closet homosexuals, but it is clear that they use male sexuality to sell the magazine to other men. And this is only one example. Shaving commercials are aimed at men and are skewed to play up the sexuality of the models. Sure they usually throw in some babe to coo over him and caress his baby-smooth face, but the male model is also always ruggedly sexy. If straight men couldn't identify with male sexiness, then wouldn't it make a better commercial to show some average joe getting the babes, presumably because he uses "X" brand razors? Clearly most healthy heterosexual men can appreciate, at least aesthetically, the beauty and sexuality of other men.
Note, I'm not saying, or even implying that most men are attracted to men in any sexual way. But any man who "cannot understand" why someone else might find a handsome man attractive is either aesthetically crippled or is too irrationally afraid of being labeled "gay" to admit they can recognize sex appeal in other men. (If you doubt this, ask the next guy who claims this if they'd be jealous if, at a party, their wife was off to the side talking with Brad Pitt. Then ask them if they'd be jealous if she were off to the side talking with Steve Buscemi.)
[edited for clarity - I hope ]
[ April 07, 2004, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think my husband is in his heart fairly straight because he can't keep track of the difference between Brad Pitt and Steve Buscemi. Or maybe he's just profoundly repressed. Actually, it's just an amazing lack of caring to link actors' names with faces. He has the same problem with actresses.
quote: I think Queen Latifa is beautiful and her persona always comes across and strong and sexy.
I think Queen Latifa is a goddess! She is such a role model for voluptuous women to feel confident and powerful.
I'm not obsessed with gay culture generally, though I love Keanu Reeves (not sure if he's gay, but it's often implied by lack of speculation) and Rupert Everett. Also, when they have those photos of historical figures that they are calling gay, and their eyes look so vulnerable. I'm thinking of Alan Turing, or there was a fellow on "The American Experience" this week. Will Percy. But maybe they just choose those photos because of that look of frailty.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
KarlEd, it is understandable that my post would come off as confusing. It was quite a bit of rambling! Let me restate the focus of my question. Men are turned on visually. Women can appreciate good looks, but it doesn't have quite the same effect. While I find my husband extremely attractive, that feeling isn't enough to, well, I don't want to be too explicit here. I am hoping that my meaning is clear enough. My point is while visual is trigger enough for a man, it is not (usually) for a woman.
Link that with the idea that in general a woman has more "eye candy" to offer. Both men and women seem to agree on this. Granted, there are severly hot men out there, but they are usually pretty far a the high end of the spectrum.
I include in the term "the male form" all the effects of testosterone, more angular facial bone structure, angluar form in general as opposed to roundness and curves. Humans in general are drawn to rounded forms, they are pretty much universally appealing. I have seen studies done on this.
So, when it comes to homosexuals, are they not as visually triggered as heteros, or do they find the male form to be every bit as much "eye candy" as a hetero finds the female form? Which is it? Or am I missing another way of looking at it?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Reply time! Whooo hooo!
Slash- Why do gay men hit on you? Because we like that sexy arrogant yet teasing personality... Heheh...No clue buddy. You cute?
Freedom Rings- Someone asked about these. Brightly rainbow colored metal rings on a chain that symbolized diversity and equality.
Kwea- Great story! I agree with KarlEd's analysis.
Gaydar- Yah... unfortunately this doesn't exist as a reliable thing. There are signs of course for pointing out the obvious, but the subtle cases are impossible to be sure on.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Beverly- Well, for some reason Zborab never rang true with me for some reason, as I posted in my first post to this board in fact. But for myself, a 100% gay man, I do not find women sexually attractive at all. BUT, I do find them beautiful in the aesthetic sense. I find ALL Humans and most of creation to be beautiful. But I only find men sexually attractive. As for the forms and curves and things… I LOVE the harder edges of the male form. That beautiful jaw line and high cheekbones, legs and arms and abdomen. Yum.
As for dudes who are confused on how someone could possibly find the male form attractive are, frankly, not trying hard enough. Just like a lot of ancient (and modern) art was about the female form, because it was for the "male view". Making a building/temple? Better put up a bunch of naked women up! Of course that's just a tiny example of things but you get the drift. When I talk to dudes who are totally confused on how I can like guys and not women I just try and get them to see it from my perspective. They tell me I just need to sleep with a women and I'll like it… then I tell them to just sleep with a man and see how they like it. They get repulsed and I tell them that is exactly how I feel about sex with a woman. And visa versa on when a pretty gal walks by they get all like "damn look at that". Then I counter when a pretty guy walks buy with "damn look at that". They get all freaked out.
Of course, I'm a freak, and in my slut days would have orgies and the like. Ahhh… to be 21 again…. But for the "glory of the orgy" I would be willing to try new things… like mess around with a woman… but I could ONLY do it if there was a guy there too for me. I need a firm foundation from which I can venture into scary territory. I would never do anything with a female, except tease, outside of that situation. For me a woman from the waist up is ok. Anything below that freaks me out. Again, it's not that I don't love the human female form, it's just the sex with the female form that repulses me. J
So, no, I would disagree that homosexuality is an advanced form of bisexuality. And since it takes alot of energy and thought to think beyond yourself and comprehend the alien, I'm not surprised that so many straight men and writers don't see the beauty of the male form. This reply is kind of stream'o'consciousness so I hope you can understand it! Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Thanks for your responses. They are helpful. Telp, I am interested in the idea that sex with a woman freaks you out as much as a hetero male is freaked out at the idea of sex with a man. I am interested in this because I know that we were all raised in the same society, one that most strongly promotes male/female attraction.
I have said in numerous places that I think I have it in me to be bisexual if I had a different upbringing and belief system. But because of my beliefs, I have never felt inclined to explore or accentuate any of those things. So it has been easy for me to go through life assuming that most people are this way.
So do a lot of homosexual men agree with the sentiment that they feel like a "woman trapped in a man's body" or does that really only apply to the few who try to "become" women as well? I have heard others refer to gay men as another "sex" all their own. I am pretty ignorant on these subjects, and I am trying to understand them better.
I appreciate the thoughts that have already been shared, and am interested in more information as well. For instance, reflections on what it was like for you going through puberty, or even how you saw the world pre-pubescently.
I am fascinated by homosexuality, and believe that it is a complicated phenomenon influenced by many factors. One thing I have wondered is if it might (at least in part) be triggered by the hormone combinations and percentages that the fetus is exposed to in the womb in addition to genetic tendencies.
On a side note to that, I was listening to the radio one day and they were talking about a link between lesbian tendancies and hormones in the womb and its effect on the relative lengths of your fingers. It was something like that the index and ring fingers of one hand would be the same length and on the other hand slightly different lengths. I remember quickly looking at my hands at the time! I dont' remember the specifics and I have no idea if the source of the study is valid. I am just throwing this out there.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Yah, I've heard the hypothesis that homosexuality is caused by the hormone thing. In the version I heard is that we all have a biochem reaction whenever we are around another human. So the idea goes that if a woman is around a lot of people the growing fetus takes that flood of hormones signifying humans nearby as that there are too many around, so better make a baby that won't breed. Pretty much what you said, just in another way I guess... An interesting theory I think. I'm still of the opinion that sexual drive is genetic... but, of course, a hormone triggering a gene is almost the same as if the genes were triggered from the moment of conception.
I agree with you that homosexuality is very complicated, and there are many shades to it. You have your straight, bi, gay... but then you have the transgendered and the peeps who want to be the opposite sex that they are, then you have just the drag queens, then you have the straight guys who want to dress up as a woman not to be gay but to be closer to women.
I actually have a good straight friend who likes to do female impersonation (a difference from drag strangely) so he can be more in tune with the perfection he lusts/loves for in women. So I guess he's actually a lesbian trapped in a man's body.
As for my growing up I was always more attracted to the male form and anatomy. But it wasn't really sexual at that point. I didn't think of it as sexual. But of course, I was so sheltered (Catholic upbringing no less) I didn't know the word homosexual existed till high school. I thought my near obsession with the male anatomy and masterbation during puberty was just natural for that time of development (I was such a little scientist). I just figured I'd like girls eventually. But then I just started noticing guys... that was a shocker let me tell you! When I finally realized that I might be gay...and then that I was probably gay. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Btw, that finger thing is interesting! Never heard of that.... I'll try and check that out...
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Being gay is so gay.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
...[continuing] That's why I said coming out was like a rebirth. I remember the day that something finally clicked in my head, that I was probably gay. It was very scary at the time. Mostly because of the unknown! Once I got past the fear of the unknown it became a relief because finally I knew myself! But then it became scary again because I didn't know anything or anybody that could teach me. I was totally alone. I was already a social outcast at school so this would do nothing to improve my standing. And even if it could, I was too shy and sheltered at that time to defend myself emotionaly from others.
But that time past, and actually coming to terms with this challenge actually helped me become brave and sociable. There was still the ordeal of actually finding somebody like me of course... that didn't happen till after high school graduation and I met an increadible group of people. Mostly theater and music peeps from school and the local theater guild. They really helped me come out of my shell. Acting also helped me immensely. It taught me how to wear the mask... how to layer psychic shields over my personality and ego so I wouldn't be so fragile. I could actually take teasing and laugh at and with it! I could finally become part of the society I so wished to be a part of. The flow of life that OSC talks about. [edit for spelling]
[ April 07, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Slash, you are too cool. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: In such conversations I usually go off on some explaination on how it's not so much how the guy looks that turns us gals on, but the essence of their masculinity. It's the feel of their more solid musculature, their deep voice, their rugged whiskers.
Tee hee. *drools*
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
I think for your idea that homosexuality is just an extreme case of bisexuality to hold any water, you'd have to say heterosexuality is also an extreme case of bisexuality.
I don't think either is necessarily true.
Women cannot turn me on. I've tried.
But I can definitely appreciate the beauty of a woman. For me this usually is an appreciation of what you might call the 'sacred femminine'. I flirt with women often, as well, because they are fun to flirt with. Especially when they know you are unattainable. I can love and admire Woman for the great things that She is, but I am driven and drawn to masculinity and the features that come with it. Even this is something you can have a spectrum for, however, as there may be distinctly femminine qualities in a man--whether gay or straight--that I could find appealing as well. In fact I am pretty much not interested in anyone male or female who is too exclusively relegated to one end of traditional gender identities. Marlboro men are boring and Sansa Stark is everyone's least favorite Fire & Ice character. I do not enjoy romantic notions of righteous heroes with shining armor showing up just in time to save the damsel in distress.
But this stuff is all very complicated. Though I know what my body tells me about who I find attractive, there are peronality traits common to women and men that can be taken into consideration as well. One of the reasons I couldn't pull off having a girlfriend or a wife is that I often have very little patience for the inner-workings of the female mind. Once you get sufficiently close to a woman, you find out the inevitable truth: she is a LUNATIC.
Or maybe that's just the ones I've met. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Very good JohnKeats! I second your article...
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
No, it's true of all of them.
We only put up with it for the sex. If you aren't interested in the sex, there is literally no reason to hang out with women. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
JohnKeats, on many occasions I have argued that heterosexuality is an extreme of bisexuality.
Oh, and JohnKeats, my husband can sympathize with your frustration with women. He grew up with all brothers and his mom isn't your average female. They are in all, a very masculine, sensible, practical family and have little patience for the "irrationalities" of most females. He has often said that this is one of the great advantages to homosexuality, not having to deal with the opposite sex!!
[ April 07, 2004, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I think you're kidding, Slash...but isn't that pretty much true? Why would a guy want a girl to be "pals" with, when his dude friends understand him much better?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Y'all remember that one of pooka's arguments against sanctioning gay marriage was that it would give respectability to misogyny?
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
Exactly.
Which is why we invented garages, lawn chairs, and beer. Ah.... sweet escape.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Okay. Silver ring? Someone splain, please.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:Keats: I often have very little patience for the inner-workings of the female mind.
quote:beverly's husband: ...one of the great advantages to homosexuality, not having to deal with the opposite sex!!
Great. We should all adopt lifestyles that enable us to avoid people who irritate us. When I'm reincarnated, I'll choose to be born into a fluffy, pink, Pepto-Bismol world, whose god is a fuzzy stuffed bunny.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I choose not to be insulted by those misogynistic statements. Men can't tolerate our minds because we exist on such a high plane. Only another woman has the ability to understand our superior intellect and thought processes. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
:::pats PSI on the head:::
You keep thinking that dear....
Kwea
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
The last guy that patted my head lost a finger.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Skillery, there's a difference between loving men and avoiding women. That they are complimentary is just a side-effect.
Your fuzzy pink god has little interest for me, but if you want to go ahead and start that religion in this lifetime, you can count on me to defend your right to believe in it.
Posted by Slash the Berzerker (Member # 556) on :
quote: We should all adopt lifestyles that enable us to avoid people who irritate us.
That pretty much sums it up for me. What exactly do you find wrong with this lifestyle choice?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I would've taken more than his finger.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
*slips slash a pride sticker under the table*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Mack: We've got to stop meeting like this.....
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: Y'all remember that one of pooka's arguments against sanctioning gay marriage was that it would give respectability to misogyny?
I can't tell to what degree, if any, you are joking here, so I'll address the implied charge. I personally have great respect for most of the women I've known. I consider myself very far from a misogynist. From what I can tell, most of my gay friends have no animosity towards women, nor do they make negative comments specifically about women, except maybe when it comes to discussions about having sex with them (which are rare, believe me). I doubt misogyny has any greater occurrence in the gay population than among straight men, and my experience leads me to believe it is actually less. I think gay men are more likely to empathize with women. Most of my gay friends have close female friends and are supportive of them as women.
Regarding visual versus other types of stimuli, I know that certain visuals can really get me excited, but so can certain smells, and certain personality traits. What I like about men goes way beyond what they look like. And for me, the visual prospect of arousal generally fades over time. I can see Chris naked or even lie with him naked and not alway get aroused. We can get a really cute co-worker in the office and for a couple of weeks I'll have to work to keep my mind out of the gutter, but that, too, will fade as time goes on. I think visuals lose their impact with familiarity. I think that's one of the reasons passion dies in a relationship (gay or straight) if the fires are not stoked in other ways.
For me, once the visual loses its initial impact, it is much more the personality and other more subtle physical senses that turn me on. And some of those things can override the visual pretty quickly if they are negative. I have met absolutely gorgeously sexy men who hold no appeal for me after a 5 minute converstation with them. And for me, if a guy is too feminine or has blatantly nelly or swishy mannerisms it really doesn't matter how cute or sexy they are physically. They will do nothing for me in terms of arousal.
quote: So do a lot of homosexual men agree with the sentiment that they feel like a "woman trapped in a man's body" or does that really only apply to the few who try to "become" women as well? I have heard others refer to gay men as another "sex" all their own. I am pretty ignorant on these subjects, and I am trying to understand them better.
Well, I for one do not feel like a woman trapped in a man's body. I feel like a man in every sense of the word that is important. I might want to be wanted by a man like a woman is wanted by a straight man, but I don't want to be a woman. There are people who feel like women trapped in male bodies. We call these people transexuals (pre-op, or post-op). Most of the gay men I know, even the more nelly of them, are very happy to have male bodies (both their own and their partners' )
Are gay men another sex? I dunno. You have to define the word. Gay men are XY just like straight men. They like a lot of the things, sexually, that straight men like. (And actually, there are very few things that gay men do sexually that at least some straight men don't do as well). But if you're talking about emotional sexuality, on the one hand I can think of some plausible arguements for gay men being a separate sex, but in my own opinion emotional sexuality is probably a more nebulous spectrum than even physical sexuality. I mean, I think the variations on what people want/need emotionally from their sexuality are far broader than man/man, man/woman, woman/woman, to the point where separating emotional sexual needs into groups (sexes, genders, whatever) would result in thousands of sexes and thus be practically meaningless anyway.
[Edit for typos]
[ April 08, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I believe that there are women friends. What prompted the comment was the bonding before about the "irrationality" and "looniness" of women.
When pooka was talking about eliminating half of the partnership was implied disrespect before, I didn't get it. What the heck? I still don't think it's intrinsic, but it seems like an easy pattern to fall into. Like the board Farmgirl was talking about - where there was a great deal of male-bashing, albeit good-natured. I don't like it. People don't fit stereotypes enough to warrant any kind of stereotypical bashing.
[ April 08, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
See. I told ya women were nuts.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
*bashes everyone*
Okay, here is a serious question about homosexuality.
My friend is gay, and he seems kind of nerdy. I really like him a lot, but I tend to hang out with people who are unusual and have only one or two close friends. He seemed like one of those kinds of guys. Anyway, we went to the Fourth Avenue Street fair together, and he was waving and talking to almost everyone there. He has a cell phone, and gets calls constantly.
This kind of confused me. I mean, in reality he's kind of a goober. Not because he's gay, but just because that's the kind of guy he is. How is it that he has a MILLION friends? I can't go anywhere with him without being stopped by people who want to hug him. They are mostly girls, but there are some guys among them.
The girls that are hanging on him are the kinds of girls that wouldn't give a straight guy a minute of their time, if the straight guy had a similar personality to this guy.
What is it, is it just that gay dudes are "en vogue" or super-cool? Do girls just like gay guys? I am really stumped.
I hate to be bashing on my guy, because I really like him. It's just that I have an odd taste in friends, and I've never had a "popular" friend before. I'm trying to figure out what makes him popular.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Seems to me you should be asking those girls.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
PSI, is he confident? It is absolutely amazing the following a combination of exotic, safe, and confident can get someone.
[ April 08, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Many desirable women enjoy hanging out with gay men precisely because they find their attention unthreatening.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I know why women like gay men, just not why women like nerdy gay men.
That's all. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Clearly I can't speak to the specifics of the case you mentioned above, but I find that many many women are just more comfortable around gay men than they are around straight men. I know a few women who are much more physically demonstrative of general affection with me than they are with straight guys we both know. I think this is because they know that with me a hug or a hand on the arm while talking won't be misconstrued as a pass. I have even had women ask me to help them with a loose bra-strap or some such similar thing when no other girls were present. One time a female coworker was complaining about a bruise on her lower back/upper buttocks that she got from some home injury. One of my male co-workers made a comment about how he thought she was faking and he'd have to see it to believe it <wink, wink, nudge, nudge>. She replied something along the lines of "Fat chance, I'll show Karl and he can verify it for you." Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
<--- late to the punch, as usual. Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: I know why women like gay men, just not why women like nerdy gay men.
Well, I think a lot of people withhold affection/attention from people that are sexual possibilities that they are not attracted to. This is very common in bar situations where a great looking guy won't talk to anyone he doesn't want to go to bed with because he presumably doesn't want to have to deal with rejecting you (if you can imagine the ego ). I've had straight male friends who complain of the same thing from some women. They don't even want to talk to you if they think you might want more than friendship. Maybe some (or many??) of the women who like your friend give him the time of day because he's like a "girlfriend" to them. (I dunno, like BTL said, you'd really have to ask them.)
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Airwolf baby... Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Yah... often while talking on the phone with my friend Heather I will hear this *FLUSH*.... "Heather?! Did you just use the toilet while talking to me??" Chicks love me. How can you get more comfortable than that?
[ April 08, 2004, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Oh my gosh...the Airwolf theme just went through my head. It'll be a week before I get rid of that. Thanks so VERY much.
I would never do that toilet thing. If I have to go, I say, "I'll talk to you later, I have to pee." Even with my husband.
Unless it's my mother. Then I put the phone down in another room, go pee, and when I come back she's still talking. She never notices I'm gone.
[ April 08, 2004, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Well, Airwolf is the Airwolf of Airwolf... what can I say? Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Ew... it sounds rude to go to the toilet while talking to someone! I've never done something like that... Nerdy guys can be somewhat appealing. They wouldn't glare at me for liking anime and RPGs so much.
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
Or maybe all those girls are getting sucked in by 'the agenda'.
...
The kid is popular because he appeals to those girls in some way. For any number of them it could be physical, emotional, or sympathetic appeal at work here. Hard to say without more intimate knowledge of the characters. Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to say. The real question is: why is it that you EXPECT this kid to be unpopular? What about him makes you figure that he's doomed to be disliked?
And if you find your expectations to be rational, then you should look to his friends to determine how it is that he overcomes that barrier with them, even though you probably already know why he broke it with you.
If the barrier exists, that is.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Nerdy guys can be somewhat appealing.
Yeah, they can. I just never see super "popular" girls liking them.
I think the reason I expected him to be unpopular is the same reason most of my friends, my husband, and myself are. He's got a big brain, doesn't talk much, and insults people easily (in the fact that he's kind of intolerant of stupid people). he's sort of the classic "I'm-smarter-than-you-so-you-are-inferior" type. The reason he broke it with me is because I was left alone with him long enough to realize that he doesn't really mean it, even though he comes off that way.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Also remember there are levels of friendship, acquaintances, friends, best friends, etc... I go out to my clubs and I feel like it's my own personal Cheers. But most of them are "club friends". Great people to hang out with and party, but you probably couldn't count on them when the going gets tough. Many of them I would never invite over my house.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Life is basically one great Revenge of the Nerds movie. It's different as adults.
[ April 08, 2004, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: It's different as adults.
What do you mean?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I mean the things that make someone a social outcast in high school don't count as much as adults, and other things count more. The whip-smart thing versus the cool musician scenario plays in the opposite favor when the musician is still living with his mom and the brain is taking business trips to India and dates to the opera. The flashy car and ability to look cool counts a lot less than the ability to be an incredible friend. It's nice.
"Popular" doesn't really exist as adults (outside of Hollywood anyway), because adults are not forced to share the same social milieu like high school students are. There's no such thing as an "in" crowd if there's no one watching, and who's going to watch if they are not thrown in with them?
---- Edit: Of course the best ones, like twinky, do both.
[ April 08, 2004, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Okay, Kat, that's what I thought you meant.
*falls out of chair* *dies*
Just so you know, I have always known this.
To make things more clear, I am an adult and operate on this adult system (and always have).
HE is still in high school, however, and most of the girls we are talking about are, as well.
Not that you're implying that I am a CHILD or anything... ...I've just never had someone explain to me how "adults" work, since I have been an adult in a child's body for my entire life.
Sorry, it's just that you told me something that no one who's ever met me would have even attempted.
I know, I asked you to explain yourself. I just wanted to make sure you were saying what I THOUGHT you were saying.
Besides, you can't tell me that adults value "know-it-alls" anymore than kids do.
[ April 08, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*grin*
--- Do you like Tom?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
<vigorous edits to avoid offending, because it just occurred to me that it might>
I do. Very much. I really don't think that's just Hatrack.
I wasn't implying that you weren't an adult. I'm sorry if it came off like that. You asked the question, but mostly I was delighted to expound on a theory that I like.
Maybe that older-on-the-inside thing applies to his friends as well?
[ April 08, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Eh, I doubt it. But I may be judging unfairly.
And yes, I like Tom. But he's broken it with me, too.
And BTW, I don't mean "know-it-all" in the sense that they are smart and confident. I mean "know-it-all" in the sense that they look down on you and think you're pathetic.
[ April 08, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, I do still like Squicky...
You mean your friend does that?
---
On the judging unfairly... My step-mother has five nieces. One of them was the head cheerleader at my high school when I was there(her aunt wasn't my stepmother then). All five size six, natural blondes, perfect Utah Mormons who married A.P. jocks that became wealthy businessman. Two live in Manhattan. They all have college degrees and the perfect children. And they are so nice. It's as annoying as hell. It's nice to think no one that has all of that could be anything but shallow, but it's not always true. It's possible his friends ARE mature enough to ignore the geek signifiers.
[ April 08, 2004, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Well, he comes off that way. But after being forced to hang out with him for several hours one evening, I realized that he didn't really feel that way, but has a hard time because he always seems to give that impression. Does that make sense?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Sure. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I think there is some truth to the idea that women like gay men. And as some of the guys here expressed, while they are not interested "that way" in women, they love flirting with them because they are safe.
I think a lot of girls look at gay guys the same way. You can have such a fun time flirting and there is no chance of getting "burned" in any way. You see, if your friend were straight, there's a chance he might get "ideas" from their flirting. From what you described, it sounds like they wouldn't want to encourage such a thing. But since they can "play around" without harm, why not enjoy it? Even with a "geeky goober". Risk-free flirting. What's not to like?
The only danger is if the girl genuinely falls for the guy. That just makes me sad. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Speaking of gals falling for gay men... I really really hate falling for straight men... so disapointing.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:they love flirting with them because they are safe.
You know, that's probably precisely the "harmless" I was looking for yesterday.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
OK, but why do women want to flirt with people they have no interest in romantic involvement? That's the real question.
Dagonee
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Telp, I hear ya.
Katharina, the solution! You need to flirt with Telp.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Why do men want to look at visuals of women they will never meet? Because it is fun.
[ April 08, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:why do women want to flirt with people they have no interest in romantic involvement?
Because it's fun. It's an interaction game. It's the same reason we debate endlessly and passionately here.
That's it. I'll remember that next time. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
*bump* Bev, were you looking for this? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Yes!!! Thank you! I tried to do a search for it and it didn't come up. That is weird.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
So, any more questions?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I don't think I asked this before but my memory may be off. It was touched on in some recent threads but never really explained to my satisfaction. I went back and read my posts in this thread to see if I already asked it and I don't think I did, but if was answered already please point me that way.
Why are there some gay men who aren't attracted to women, but then go out and date men who dress like women and look almost entirely female?
Like, what would be the point of dating Rupaul? Why not just a girl?
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
[whisper]Penis.[/whisper]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
So they'd be just as happy with a girl who has a penis?
(And what about the men that have had drastic sex changes?)
[ August 06, 2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Then hermaphrodites would be fine?
Am I getting this right, male homosexuality centers around interest in male genetilia more than about not liking women?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Does heterosexuality center around not liking the same sex?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'm going to have to agree with Fugu here, sexuality is normally defined by attraction, not lack there off, bi-sexuals being another good counter-point example.
Hobbes Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Nah, they're just indecisive.... Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I was trying to respond to the comment about gay men who date effeminate men and dating women with penises, but I think I was commenting on something that wasn't said.
So afresh: I'm pretty much straight, and much of that is due to an appreciation for the penis. So I like men with penises. But I have found myself liking girls with girlness, too. But I don't want a girl with girlness and a penis. That's just weird. (YMMV)
Edit: I don't want a manly girl with a penis, either. Just so you know.
[ August 06, 2004, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: dabbler ]
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
OK, I have a question.
I used to watch this show called "An Adoption Story" or some such, mainly because I intend to adopt. One of the gay male couples were talking about how they love their child, and how they have had to make new friends because their old friends kept teasing them about being straight now that they had adopted. Does anyone know why these "friends" would say such things? I honestly don't get it because I don't think adopting says anything about homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
quote:I guess I am just wondering if a woman's attraction to a man and a homosexual man's attraction to a man are the same thing. It has been my experience that for the most part women don't really care all that much about a man's penis until it comes to the actual use of it.
Bev, I think I can't figure out what a gay man would find penis-oriented-but-not-the-action attractive that a straight woman wouldn't. The thought of a penis, with little care as to the body attached? Easily find either a gay man or a straight woman for that.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Well, as a heterosexual woman with very small breasts, I guarantee that some men are butt and leg men, or I'd never have gotten a date.
That said, I suppose women would be more interested in penises if they were more obvious. I shall never forget my first water polo match. O_O I can also say that some women past a certain age or with a certain level of experience, DO talk about penises. Ceck out some Ewan McGregor fansites, if you don't believe me.
But penis size or whatever can't have a lot to do with who we chose to date, just because once we see the thing, chances are we're fairly committed. I've only ever had intimate knowledge of the ONE (though I have come to understand that my beloved is a man of unusual proportions) and it hardly had any bearing on my choice. By the time I met Ron JR I had already made my choice.
Also, I did once get flashed on a walk through my neighborhood, and immediately became incapacitated with laughter, not disgust. I was still a teen, and didn't really see any implicit threat in the gesture. It was just shocking. Yuo're right, though, in that it didn't DO anything for me.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
quote:Most women don't particularly like to look at them or think about them. They only care when they are in the thoes of passion.
I think this is the part that I question and disagree with. Unless you can find a study that says this outright, I'm just going to say that I think it's an unfounded stereotype.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
Would it convince you otherwise if I could get half a dozen female hatrackers to raise their hands on being visually stimulated and particularly interested in penises? Seems treading the line on family-oriented forum, but if you'd be willing to accept that as enough other-side anecdotal data, then it might be worth it.
Edit: sorry, errant 'r' getting in the way.
[ August 07, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: dabbler ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
You know, dabbler has a very good point. Just because I am curious about this doesn't make it an appropriate conversation for a family-oriented forum. While I do wish to discuss it at some point with a group, this is *not* the proper place to do it.
I deleted three of my posts, which may make some other posts here look out-of-place. Feel free to delete them also. We can just pretend this conversation never happened. Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
I dunno. I feel that abstract, non-descriptive discussion would be okay but I'm not a mod/owner.
How about this. Would you be perfectly happy to marry a man with no genitalia? Or lets just take Porter and subtract that part of him. Would you be just as happy/contented?
I think that similar numbers of men and women would prefer their mates with genitalia intact, indicating an interest in those genitalia apart from other gender-specific characteristics.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Heh. I told somebody the other day that I did track and feild events in highschool, like the dashes and highjump. I said I didn't like team sports, because i hated having to deal with/depend on other people.
He said, "You frighten me, Olivia." Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: How about this. Would you be perfectly happy to marry a man with no genitalia? Or lets just take Porter and subtract that part of him. Would you be just as happy/contented?
No, but part of that would be knowing that a eunuch or even an impotent man can't enjoy that sort of intimacy much. But I will say this, I can enjoy such an intimate encounter without that being involved. It is not crucial to my enjoyment.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
And I think (know) heterosexual guys can enjoy an intimate encounter without breasts being involved.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
::shrug::
Fair 'nough. I still think that there is a pretty significant difference in the way men and women's sex drives work. And I honestly am curious particularly about the homosexual male and if his sex drive tends to work more like a man's or like a woman's or perhaps a combination of the two. I find it an interesting question.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
I think a gay man's sex drive works pretty similarly to any other man's, though the object of desire is, by definition, different. But I think men's sex drives are much more varied among individuals than typical stereotypes allow. My ex was insatiable. My current boyfriend very much less so (though I enjoy intimacy with him much more.)
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Yup yup...
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
PSI Teleport asked about men who date nelly (girly) men. Personally, I find that a little mysterious myself. I can see the hottest looking guy in the world and if he starts mincing or swishing or talking effiminately the attraction bottoms out pretty quickly. But I imagine for people who are attracted to this, it's the same as for straight men who like boyish or even mannish women.
This isn't to be confused with "camp" though. Many gay men (myself included to some degree) will affect somewhat effeminate (or effeminate charicatured) speech patterns and/or mannerisms when we're in gay company. I might say "You go, girl!" to a gay male friend. A friend of mine will adopt a very queen-ish attitude and then say something cutting-but-witty that will have us all laughing. It's a part of the culture for some. It's an embarrassment for others.
On a related note, there is the concept of "gender-f***", which is basically thumbing one's nose at established gender stereotypes. For some this is an expression of freedom. For some it is more a kind of in-your-face activism.
There is also the tradition of drag, which is not to be confused with transvestitism or transexuality. Drag is more dress-up or impersonation. For most drag queens, it is theater, and the illusion of uber-femininity is the point in itself. And To Wong Foo aside, very few drag queens wear drag except when they are "on" (at the bars or for performances). But I'm getting off the point I think, so I'll stop here.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
School4ever wrote:
quote: I used to watch this show called "An Adoption Story" or some such, mainly because I intend to adopt. One of the gay male couples were talking about how they love their child, and how they have had to make new friends because their old friends kept teasing them about being straight now that they had adopted. Does anyone know why these "friends" would say such things? I honestly don't get it because I don't think adopting says anything about homosexuality or heterosexuality.
Some gays actively reject the "straight world". I think they are a minority. These gays also usually could care less about gay marriage, or adoption rights. Just like there are some black people who scream "Uncle Tom" at any black person who doesn't talk in ebonics or (heaven forbid) might marry a white person, there are gays who think gay-marriage and adoption and such are signs of trying to "be straight" and by implication rejecting gay culture.
I think it just shows that there are narrow-minded people in all cultures.
It's sad to think that a case like you mention might be taken as representative of the norm. In my experience, most gays are very happy for those in the gay community who might choose to adopt or get married.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Wow! So much to learn. Thanks, y'all.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Mmmmmmmm.... this 27 year old homosexual is dead tired... I therefor appoint KarlEd spokesman for the gay community...
*zonk*
Rock on KarlEd!
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Okay -- I'm going to ressurect this thread to ask a probably-stupid question to Telp or KarlEd.
In a gay-male relationship, isn't one of the partners usually more "feminine" and the other a little more "masculine"? To various degrees?
I mean - once, years ago, I picked up two hitchhikers (both male) who, after about 15 minutes of riding in the car with me, it became obvious were very gay and very much in love with each other. One of them I would have figured was gay if I had met him even totally in a different context or alone -- the other one, I would never have been able to tell. In fact, he said years ago he had a "straight" relationship with a wife & kids and left it because he was gay, and now had this partner. But he was definately more masculine of the two in mannerisms, etc.
Now I'm asking this because I have a friend who is a gay male, and he is just going through a break-up with his partner of several years. I'm not sure how to address this/comfort him. I mean, there are certain things I feel I can relate to a girl when she is breaking up with a guy, or a guy when he's breaking up with a girl, but I don't know which of these two viewpoints of breakup this guy is feeling. But I want to show caring and compassion because I realize they had a loving relationship.
or maybe I should just keep my mouth shut altogether?
FG
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I remember in the Philippines someone talking about lesbian relationships and how one is often "the male" and the other "the female".
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think of any two people, no matter what their genders, one will find one is more masculine in at least some ways and the other more feminine. Also, particularly as society tends to expect masculine/feminine pairings, those differences will likely become more evident due to role fulfillment.
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
Karl- thank you for answering my question. It has puzzled me for some time.
Posted by School4ever (Member # 5575) on :
You are right, it is sad there are bigots in every culture.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Farmgirl - I think the feminine/masculine dichotomy in gay relationships is largely a myth. I think that straight society identifies some degree of femininity in all gay men, and some degree of masculinity in all lesbians. Additionally, I think if you looked hard enough at any male (gay or straight) you could identify some aspect of his personality that might fit the stereotype of "feminine". Ditto (in reverse) for women.
I'll admit that some gay relationships one partner might more clearly fall toward the masculine end of the spectrum and one toward the feminine end, but I think most gay couples are less easily pinned down to a spot on the spectrum.
In my own relationship, I tend to be the protector (M), the primary bread winner (M), the cook (F), the home-maker (F), etc, though Chris also shares in each of these roles. He does more of the housekeeping (F) but I also participate int his. Sexually, I'm probably more the initiator (M), but in terms of the mechanics of sex we both enjoy roles that straight people would likely identify with one end of the spectrum or the other. (Trying not to be too graphic here )
I think, though, that if you looked at any straight couple with the intent of picking out ways one gender is filling the role traditionally filled by the other gender, you'd be able to find a lot of "feminine" men and "masculine" women paired together.
So I think that since straight relationships have had more clearly defined masculine/feminine roles traditionally, people (gay and straight) often try to project those roles into a gay relationship and determine who fits which stereotype best. In reality, though, I think the masculine/feminine aspects of the roles get shuffled pretty thoroughly in gay relationships (some more than others) and such a dichotomy is harder to substantiate.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Thank you for that clarification, KarlEd. That was very enlightening, and I will do my best to NOT perpetuate that myth myself in the future, then. I can see the logic of both what you say, and what Fugu said, about EVERY relationship having some masculine/feminine traits. In fact, I have been accused of being too masculine many times because of my extremely independent streak. It has intimidated some men in my relationships.
Back to my original question then (the reason I asked that above). What is the best way to (verbally) show compassion and understanding to a gay person who has just ended a long-term relationship? Just the same as we do anyone else, right?
Farmgirl
[ August 10, 2004, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
Yes. People are people and should be related to as individuals, especially when it comes to personal issues like a breakup. Just as you probably wouldn't say the same thing to all the straight women you may know who are going through a breakup, but tailor your response based on your knowledge of the situation and your degree of closeness to the people involved, you should do the same for your gay male friends.
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But I think my massive slut days are over. I'd rather be single than be with someone who sucks. Or at least...sucks....well... erm.. heheh ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Synth, I understand. ![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
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[has never had a girl try to convert him] ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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are there any pic of you on the net that i could see ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
autosexual![[Monkeys]](graemlins/monkeys.gif)
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