quote: I number among the two-and-a-half minority members we have here.
That made me think. What counts as a minority? Does that mean being Jewish, being gay, and being Mormon don't count as minority? If it refers to physial disability, I'll bet there's more here than we know. Does this mean Asians don't count as minorities? Because I KNOW there are more than two and a half here.
Is it all about context? Minorities here are just those who are not in the majority at Hatrack. The groups also intersect and combine - pooka is Mormon, but she is also Asian (I think).
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
So, basically you're telling him to save hyperbole for when he really means it?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No, I'm not, actually. If by minority he meant traditionally-repressed, skin color darker than B-7 or however they measure it, I think his number is a little high.
I was just wondering. Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
People are always disagreeing with me and claiming I'm weird, so I think I must be one of those 2.5 people...
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I disagree that you're weird. Freak!
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
So the "half" part of that census didn't give away its inaccuracy?
Heh. Kat, you need to learn someday, 68% of all statistics are false.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tres, you couldn't be more wrong. What a weird person you are.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Curse you and your speedy fingers, Bob!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I don't think when it comes right down to it that the word "minority" has any particular meaning. I think we need to put a qualifying adjective on it before it makes any sense at all. The default adjective is "racial or ethnic" in the US, but we should always be mindful that minority status along any dimension means that there's the possibility of being marginalized in our society.
Being on the margins means that you can be locked out of opportunities based on something that has nothing to do with your qualifications and more to do with the particulars of your birth or your culture.
And frankly, I think the more one focusses on those attributes, the more one risks being marginalized too.
I'm not a big proponent of forced assimilation, but I think people should want to assimilate at least to the point of being proficient members of the society in which they live.
Oops, more than you asked.
Sorry.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hey Lalo, come a little bit closer. You need something desperately. Lalo
Boogerbrain, I'm trying to start a discussion on what it means to be a minority.
If there are truly no real minorities here at Hatrack - every discussion is about down the middle, it seems - does that mean we are not accepting of others?
[ March 22, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
'sokay Noemon. You beat me retroactively.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Maybe I'm the half.... I mean, Tres is definitely weird - but Xaposert is just cool. Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
<-- minority
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Just a couple of definitions - any number of neuropsychologists will tell you that people "like me" have some trouble with high-order abstract concepts.
quote:individuals with disabilities are a discrete and insular minority who have been faced with restrictions and limitations, subjected to a history of purposeful unequal treatment, and relegated to a position of political powerlessness in our society, based on characteristics that are beyond the control of such individuals and resulting from stereotypic assumptions not truly indicative of the individual ability of such individuals to participate in, and contribute to, society;
quote:Main Entry: mi·nor·i·ty Pronunciation: m&-'nor-&-tE, mI-, -'när- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties Usage: often attributive 1 a : the period before attainment of majority b : the state of being a legal minor 2 : the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control 3 a : a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment b : a member of a minority group <an effort to hire more minorities>
The dictionary is kinda weird - seems like the first definition listed for "minority" is the least commonly used here in the U.S., with the possible exception of juvenile caseworkers.
Might be good when talking about "minority" to try to nail down which particular definition you're working from - the numerical definition or the more complex social one.
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
I (pooka) am half asian. And I keep asserting Asians are still minority. But I think I'm alone as an Asian jatraquero in doing that. So we have Lalo (hispanic) sndrake (differently abled) and half of me. I don't think Lalo can at this point be absolved with the assertion that he was engaging in hyperbole.
Or maybe he meant the gay members of the board. Karl, Karl, and half of me because I admit to having bisexual tendencies.
Posted by luthe (Member # 1601) on :
Lalo was engaging in hyperbole.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
If you're counting disability, there are definitely more people than just me here who have identified themselves.
We have more Latinos than just Lalo, too.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Lalo has already said he looks white, and let's face it, that's all that counts when talking about whether you're a minority or not.
Lalo, I hereby promote you to majority status. Enjoy!
[ March 22, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Heck, I'm even a minority of the voices in my own head.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Dan
The voices in my head speak with heavy foreign accents!
Posted by The Thnikkaman (Member # 6330) on :
I'm another of those minor voices in Dan's head.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Bob, that has to go into the single line description thread.
Shhh Thnik, its my turn to type. Wait your turn.
[ March 22, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
So what's the point of a hyperbole about not enough minorities on Hatrack? Aren't there not very many minorities everywhere? Isn't that the point of being a minority? Oh well. I was going to impugn Lalo's mental health, but I'm part of that minority as well. But like being LDS, I don't know if suffering from a mental disorder is a minority on Hatrack.
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
quote:Boogerbrain, I'm trying to start a discussion on what it means to be a minority.
If there are truly no real minorities here at Hatrack - every discussion is about down the middle, it seems - does that mean we are not accepting of others?
Kat, I'm afraid I have no idea what you've just said. We do have some very real minorities at Hatrack -- of our colored members, we have maybe a handful at best. Our homosexual members can be counted on one hand. We have a wide spread of members from across the country and from several different religions, but please don't mistake Hatrack for a melting pot of multiculturalism.
And, er, how exactly does a lack of minorities, assuming your claim were accurate, imply intolerance? I don't follow.
Being a minority in America carries a connotation of underprivilege and persecution -- and at that, popular understanding applies those rules along racial lines. Homosexuals, for example, are minorities, and are subject to widespread hatred and discrimination, but Hispanics and African-Americans are more often the poster boys for the term because they're a) identifiable by first glance and b) the subjects of government programs out to help "minorities" gain access to the higher tiers of society.
As far as what it means to be a minority? I don't understand. I suppose if you're a black woman whose life is continually defined by persecution and harassment for your skin color, your identity is largely formed from your existence as a minority in White America -- but at least in my experience, being Mexican is just a heritage to be proud of, no more or less than being Irish or Russian.
Then again, I'm also -- as Storm pointed out -- easily mistakable for white. Thanks to my half-Norwegian heritage, hell, most Mexicans mistake me for Armenian. I don't generally have problems with the police, nor do I think I've ever been denied a job based on my race or name, if I have the chance to give an interview. I'm not a representative sample of the Mexican minority in the United States. And even if I were, I'm not sure I could provide an answer to a question as vague as the one you posed.
What do you think it means to be a minority? Maybe if you answer your own question, I'll be better able to understand it.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, over the weekend I watched a very interesting interview on NOW with a guy who was arguing that, despite his hispanic ancestry, he was not a minority because of his full participation in mainstream American culture, his fluency in the common dialect of mainstream American culture, etc. He argued that his receiving any kind of advantage due to his genetic ancestory was wrong, because while he shared the same genetic background of many people who he viewed as part of the true hispanic minority, he had himself joined mainstream US culture. I think that was the gist of his argument, anyway; I unfortunately only caught the last few minutes of his interview, and had to kind of read between the lines to divine his general argument. I'll do some digging and see if I can find his name. I've been meaning to do that anyway; I want to read his book.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Okay, here we go. The guy's name is Richard Rodriguez, and a full transcript of the interview is available slightly more than half way down this page. Now to read the interview, and see if I understood correctly what he was saying.
Edited to fix ubb code.
[ March 22, 2004, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
I don't really seek any benefits for being half a minority. I think it is progress that Asians are not quota subjects anymore. I see it as a lack of progress that other minorities have been defined. The main respect in which I am still a minority is the emnity of other minorities. At least, that's where I've experienced the most intimidation and threats.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Pooka, are you avoiding a landmark?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I believe she said that she is.
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
quote:I don't really seek any benefits for being half a minority. I think it is progress that Asians are not quota subjects anymore. I see it as a lack of progress that other minorities have been defined. The main respect in which I am still a minority is the emnity of other minorities. At least, that's where I've experienced the most intimidation and threats.
Pooka, I have to say, I'm surprised. Other minorities have threatened you for being Asian?
I can kinda sorta maybe see the classic Korean-minimart-in-a-black-ghetto scenario, but I have to say, I'm skeptical of that particular story's residence in your life history. Could you elaborate?
As far as "quota subjects" goes, I'm not aware of any actual race quotas in existence. I'm against racially-based affirmative action, myself, but even it just gives minorities a small point boost in university admissions decisions. Are there any other examples I'm unaware of?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Icky, I know that during the Rodney King riots in L.A. Asian shop owners were frequently targeted.
The worst race against race violence I know of at all personally is rival black and hispanic gangs.
A good friend of mine got caught in the middle in a riot at her high school in the town where I grew up. She is multi-racial, her father is black-guatemalan, and she was born in Mexico. In apearance, she looks more ethnically black even though she speaks spanish fluently.
It wasn't pretty, was caught and couldn't get across the cafeteria, where the fight was happening because neither side would offer her protection to get out, like everyone else had.
AJ
Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
quote: Icky, I know that during the Rodney King riots in L.A. Asian shop owners were frequently targeted.
[psst . . . I am not Daedalus . . .]
Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
Yeah, I'm kinda insulted...
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What kidders. Lalo, Icarus, and Daedalus are all the same person.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Not to mention Lcarus.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Is sociopathy considered a minority?
Can I cash in on this thing?
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Left-handers are a minority. And we are constantly discriminated against. Sure, nobody hates us, so we don't face prejudice like racial minorities might. But we are frequently inconvenienced and sometimes put at risk because of which hand we use. And we don't have the lobbies or public sympathy that other minority groups have received. Yeah, there's no active hate...it's just that people don't care.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that everyone here has been a minority in some way, whether because of our race, sexual orientation, gender, religion, disabilities, or even which hand we use. The challenges we face might be different, but we've all been discriminated against because of who we are.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Lalo, weren't Asian shop owners targeted during the Rodney King riots? you were a lot closer in proximity than I was.
AJ
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Right is Right: Lefties GO Home.
I am hereby forming HELLO--Help Eliminate Lefty Losers Organization. We think that left handedness, with its Sinister Leftist associations, is a mark of a depraved sinful mind. Further, we are tired of there impractical and costly demands for special benefits. I mean, do we really need Left Handed Scissors or Left Hand Turn Lanes?
As such we promote the following:
1)No person is allowed to use their left hand as a primary hand in public. Save your degerate behavior for the privacy of your own home.
2) There is no evidence that left handedness is genetic. It is a life style choice and one that is wrong. Any findings to the contrary are part of the "Left-handed Media Conspiracy". Check it out. The writers of those papers are either closet lefties or sympathetic to their cause.
3) Lefties shall not pitch in any baseball game shown on public television. This is another part of the lefties strategy to normalize thier abhorent behavior by destabilizing the great All American Pastime of Baseball. Since this is an afront to our pasttime it is obvious that Lefties are Un-American.
4) Ambidexterousness is a fable that doesn't exist. These are just closet lefties trying to pass in public. Heck, there isn't even a word Ambidexterousness.
5) We are all made in God's image. God is right handed (See the Cistine Chapel for proof). Hence using ones left hand is a sin.
6) This is not an attack on Lefties, but a defense of our good rightist culture. For if we allow lefties to be equal to us, then the next thing we know we all will be forced to be lefties.
[ March 23, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Dan_raven ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
*wonders if Dan realizes that "sinister" is Latin for "left-handed"*
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Excepting sports, you've just restated the American norm until the 60s, DanRaven, when those touchy feely liberals began preaching it was okay to be sinister.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Here is the relavent portion of Rodriguez's interview:
quote:RODRIGUEZ: Brown means this difference between, say, the blond Cuban and the Black Puerto Rican, and the brown Mexican in Los Angeles, this makes our racial variety so embarrassing for those of us who claim that Hispanics are discriminated group. My first book, HUNGER OF MEMORY is the story of a scholarship boy. I wrote that book against politicians who were describing me ethically or racially in those years, who were describing me as a minority. At a point in which I had become middle class, and I was telling them the politicians in this first book, that you know, I'm not a minority. There are people who are minorities, including a lot of white kids who live in Appalachia, who are truly minorities.
MOYERS: You resented that didn't you?
RODRIGUEZ: Oh yes, the way the liberal agenda has written out the white poor in this country for the last 30 years is an outrage.
MOYERS: Yes, there's this troubled me…
RODRIGUEZ: And the way it has allowed those of us who are middle class, to advance on the backs of the poor, by playing with that word minority, which is used as a numerical label. I am in this room with you, a minority. But I'm not culturally a minority.
We belong to the same world. But the assumption is that by advancing me, that I change the condition of those people in this country, who are culturally minorities. That is, those people who are outside, who do not speak this public language. Those Mexicans who work in east LA, my tie with them is very vague indeed.
But the notion that I'm a numeric minority allows me to advance on the basis of their exclusion. Do you know what I mean?
But I will never forget that that class barrier separates me. And I will never let you or anyone in America call me a minority because that trivializes their situation.
MOYERS: So in the end, it is class that wins?
RODRIGUEZ: Well, it will be class except at some level, all of us play parts in each others' lives. And I said, you know, I've been… not so much an admirer of the illegal immigrant but an awed witness to their journey. The poor are in movement all over the world. And they are forcing us to change the way we see the world.
MOYERS: But the facts, the data show that inequality is great and growing.
RODRIGUEZ: Exactly. Exactly. What…
MOYERS: …becomes.
RODRIGUEZ: Join me then in my criticism of affirmative action this movement that essentially has created a black and brown bourgeoisie in the name of the poor. Start social revolutions from the bottom and go up. Don't start it at the top and expect the bourgeoisie to improve the condition of those at the bottom. You know, California right now has the highest — except for Hawaii — has the highest rate of interracial marriages. But they also have the-- the largest number of per capita of gated communities in the country. This is happening simultaneously. We are marrying each other. We are violating borders. And we are also pulling back.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Yes, I know Sinister = Left handed.
I was a lefty, who in kindergarten in the early 70's was forced to switch to writing right handed, and tieing my shoes right handed. As a result, my writing is illegible and my shoes continually come untied.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
wow that sucks dan. I'm a lefty. I even broke my left arm about the time I was starting to favor it. And I stayed a lefty.
Though my handwriting is illegible and my shoes come untied...
AJ
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What an interesting interview. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, isn't it? I'd like to hear more of what he has to say. I'm adding several of his books to my "buy in the relatively near future" list.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Same ol' "If I say what the Man wants to hear, the goofball'll pay me big bucks."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You think so, aspectre? Explain, if you would.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote: As far as "quota subjects" goes, I'm not aware of any actual race quotas in existence. I'm against racially-based affirmative action, myself, but even it just gives minorities a small point boost in university admissions decisions. Are there any other examples I'm unaware of?
To maintain some government contracts, my company is supposed to maintain a quota of minorities which varies from agency to agency. There's no particular race quota that has to be met, but a general one. I believe for Orange Co., FL, it's 24%, meaning 24% of full-time employees in our company should be a minority. Minorities include women and blacks, but not most Asians or Arabs. Nepalese count though.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Same ol' "If I say what the Man wants to hear, the goofball'll pay me big bucks."
Same ol' "A minority can't have an opinion without being accused of selling out."
Edit: the more I think about this, the more it strikes me as an incredibly condescending and insulting attitude to have, as if you are so much more aware what positions are "good" for minorities that there could be no reason for having a contrary opinion other than greed.
[ March 23, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
My daughter is a lefty, and her handwriting is also illegible, and her shoes also come untied!
Posted by JohnKeats (Member # 1261) on :
I'm starting another group: PFLAP. Parents and Friends of Left-Anded People.
I'm a righty myself, but lefties need to have equal protection under the law. Our society needs to view everybody equally.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
"Same ol' "A minority can't have an opinion without being accused of selling out." "
You are the one who mentioned "minorities". I was speaking of the PC crowd following RushLimbaugh's example. Ya know, the ones who wanna believe in "trickle down economics": if the government fills the high troughs for the big hogs, some of the feed will slop outta their mouths for the piglets to eat; if the government pours enough golden draught down wealthy gullets, those waiting upon them beneath will receive a golden shower.
Never thought of such pseudo"conservative"s as a put-upon minority m'self. The right wing of the king's table is reserved for those whose loyalty can be counted upon cuz their stature is dependent upon the king's favor. The left wing is reserved for those who gained their stature independently, upon whom the king must rely because they bestow wealth&power&stability upon the king. And so the inept must rely upon their sycophancy to gain a seat at the right wing of the table. And the left wing will always be less trusted, cuz the competent always know that any king is replaceable.
[ March 24, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: You are the one who mentioned "minorities". I was speaking of the PC crowd following RushLimbaugh's example.
Considering your post was pretty clearly a response to the Rodriguez interview, that no one on the thread has mentioned Rush until you did, and given your history of posting incredibly inaccurate statements and refusing to acknowledge refutations in any way, I think you're back-peddling here. But just in case you really did mean it that way...
quote: Ya know, the ones who wanna believe in "trickle down economics": if the government fills the high troughs for the big hogs, some of the feed will slop outta their mouths for the piglets to eat; if the government pours enough golden draught down wealthy gullets, those waiting upon them beneath will receive a golden shower.
This isn’t even close to what “trickle-down economics” is. Trickle-down economics, at its heart, states that the efficient allocation of capital will result in long-term sustainable job creation, lifting the standard of living of most people. I’m not a strict trickle-downer myself – I think the economy, like most things in the real world, is more complex than that. But it’s also more complicated than “trickle-up” people would have us think as well.
quote:Never thought of such pseudo"conservative"s as a put-upon minority m'self. The right wing of the king's table is reserved for those whose loyalty can be counted upon cuz their stature is dependent upon the king's favor. The left wing is reserved for those who gained their stature independently, upon whom the king must rely because they bestow wealth&power&stability upon the king. And so the inept must rely upon their sycophancy to gain a seat at the right wing of the table. And the left wing will always be less trusted, cuz the competent always know that any king is replaceable.
This is laughable. Most conservatives I know are incredibly competent people. A good portion of them have successfully created small businesses that provide jobs and benefits, taken all together, to hundreds (if not thousands, I don’t feel like doing the math) of people. Your utter refusal to see potential positive motivations in those who disagree with your political and economic views is astoundingly childish.
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