Okay this might take awhile, but this is honestly whats on my mind at the moment. Well its been on my mind since we were moving through Karbala. Sort of has been on my mind for a long time. Well even from when I was a child. I've always had a sort of odd view on what it meant to be a soldier. My father was always a patriot, but never the blind sort. Well I suppose this really is going to take a lot of room so I suppose I'll post it here and then post it in its own topic so. Yes.
I don't mean to disrespect someone when I say the word civilian and I don't mean it in the broad sense of the word. I mean it in the sense of what I have seen to be the average American. So.. I suppose here goes with what has been torturing my soul.
The Average American is the sort to help a stranger who has fallen on the ground, or to help an old lady across the street. The average guy I've met loves his Grandma and most of the time loves his mother like no other. The thing is he is inherently racist.. well I shouldn't say racist, but he is unfeeling for the most part for the plight of those in the far away lands. Lands where most likely his forefathers had never heard of , at the very most heard of in some far off story of some sort or another. Democracy and polls have put the average American into a rather unusual and unprecedented postion if you ask me, that he though uniformed and uneducated on a majority of the world has great decision making power of the vast sort. He is simply educated by what he reads in the news. But every event in life tends to be very polar. War for example is very much towards the negative, while say good economy is positive.
My favorite example is the fact that we would suffer a minor ambush in Iraq in our battalion area and it would be on CNN. While we would be in another larger encounter a week from then where we took down some odd target or simply ambushed would be ambushers. This of course is for the most part not broadcast out to the general media. Its not like there was a reporter on every corner. Plus news is simply geared towards the more radical and interesting rather than perhaps that which is most pertitent for a citizen to make an informed educated choice. The thing is if you ask me most people make their choices based on things that are false. That and I have found that those that are educated tend to develop traits and ideas I find to be very false, but I'll get into that later.
So for the most part I utterly and totally hate the average American. This might come as a shock to many people, but it is honestly the truth now. I do not like the average civilian anymore. Why is this? Well mainly it comes about that I find Americans, and to be honest most of humanity is very fixed on his comfort level.
He complains and whines when he should laugh and take heart at his situation. Me and my buddy Watson laugh and joke about his scars, he caught a large amount of shrapnel to his right shoulder, one piece through his torso into his intestines and chipped part of his liver, and then a piece into the side of his face , plus it drove the sunglasses he was wearing into his eyeballs taking away 50% of his perepherial vision plus putting a small dot of blackness in his right eye. He still goes out and runs 5 miles a day and enjoys life as he did before for the most part. He is of course lucky as my good buddies Rowe and Hutchinson were both killed as well as a aquantance of mine in HHC and B co. My friend Abbot lost his right arm, my friend Zamora was shot in the thigh, My friend rednour had a silver dollar sized hole punched a inch and a half deep in his skull. Those are just the men that I know extremely well in my tiny band of brothers so to speak. You know what we had it easy if you ask me. Soldiers before me have had to bear so much more and fight with so much less. Yet the civilian tells me when to stop, when I've had enough, he tells me how much I'm capable of giving up.
A friend of mine once said that Iraq is stupid as there are no WMDs there and why remove an evil dictator. That we would have to take out the rest of them as well. Of course I simply said that I wouldn't mind fighting in a dozen more wars. Not that I feel like it, but then to be honest I think most of all to a piece of advice from my father. He hates the civilian world because you will have to do a job with ten people and no one will take charge, and when someone does they whine about how it should have been done this way or that way. How they failed etc. Then of course they get up there and can't do nearly as good of a job, or can't do it at all. His favorite leaders, and those I admire the most, are the ones who will see a situation in which no one has any idea how to approach it. Instead of ignoring it or pushing it off on someone else he jumps in and trys to accomplish his mission or duty. Though he may fail or take more time doing it that one time, from then on he knows better on how to handle it. Yes I don't even think the war was directed correctly? But would any of you honestly know how to approach it correctly 100%? Or would you simply have left it alone, shoved it off on the internationl community as if we are not a part of it. Yes we the United States are a bit imperialistic, practically all powerful nations and empires have been that way. However we do so in a way I feel most empires and nations have not. We do not conquer our prey, but attempt to have him see things our way. Of course I'll be honest, I don't think its so great to make the rest of the world like America, but at the very least the world should let its people and populace do things in the manner which they see fit.
I notice so many people go to college and university and say that they are finally seeing the world. I always laugh at this as when you go to college you experience the life of college as at every stage of your life you experience life, simply through your lens. I will say that education helps people, and for the most part it is a very good thing. The thing is so many seem to believe that they know the world through a textbook through the writings of others. And of course this is a good thing to a point, the thing is everything is skewed towards the authors point of view. The thing is I feel that far too many people who get put through the system are highly mechanical or entirely emotional. I will give an example, They believe in following the plan ( evil methodists ) the path of execution which will bring them the wealth, power, or even emotional pleasure that they wish. This of course isn't the worst of things. Then there are the emotional, those that believe in following ideals and emotions, love, hate, anger, pride, honor, etc. and basing there actions on those. What I seem to find most contorting is that all these ways of thought they always seem to be mostly for the individual.
Have you ever felt no gratitude, no happiness, no good warm fuzzies from helping someone and continued to do so simply because there is a logic of sort behind your actions. Simply because it is correct. Have you ever planned your life for others and yourself at the same time. I suppose that I find the belief that one must love themself before they can love others is utterly false. But that one most love others in all their imperfections before they can love themselves. Though I hate Americans I still love them in my own way. I suppose most of all what I want to be is no longer an American, no longer a German, no longer even a human being. Simply an entity, an object amongst many other objects. I interact with my world and before I can clean it I must empty all the drawers, closets, I must move the refrigerator of the world and sweep behind it. I of course can't do that all alone, and I highly doubt I will be able to do it any time in my lifetime, or even the lifetime of my children if they are ever born. I feel people should act and stop talking. That perhaps compromise is not always the best thing , that one most evolve and become a human being that can handle and accept evil as readily as he/she can accept good. Sorry that this is all.. a bit well very staticy in its presentation. I suppose I'm a little staticy as well.
[ March 27, 2004, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Black Fox ]
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
You might try inserting a few more paragraph breaks. edit to remove snarkies.
[ March 27, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: skrika03 ]
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
there more paragraph breaks, now the evilness of finding out where I made myself look like a grammatical idiot.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Paul, I am going to speak harshly to you because I know you need some @sskicking. You know that I do this because I am worried about you and because I have some experience with persons like yourself who have been in battle. Seek counseling. I know there is a stigma in the military against counseling, perhaps with some reason, but it is vitally important that you have someone (someone IRL) to talk to about all of this. You are a complicated person, and while that is usually a good thing, it complicates your situation. Ask for a counselor with (fairly recent) battle experience, a soldier. I doubt you will be able to find an enlisted person to counsel you, but if you can find an enlisted mentor to help you out unofficially, this would probably be best. Ask your first seargant, if you feel comfortable with him. The average American citizen simply cannot know what you know. That does not make them vile. That makes them different. There are plenty of things about the world that you don't know, too. Even things that occur in your sphere. Even soldier things. Trust humanity to be stupid, yes, but trust humans to be compassionate, too. Get the help you need. Do it for the military community, if not for yourself.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
I don't need any counseling, I'm completely mentally stable, just angry. I simply finally don't feel like holding it in anymore. Americans are a great example of ignorance is bliss. I love the country man who perhaps uneducated has a good set of reasoning in his mind. It is interesting that our urban elite seem to not be able to solve anything. People would just sit there and have their problems solved for them. Our nation has shown it can't handle war anymore, Vietnam is a great example of that and this simply shows it even more. If anyone can hurt us in even the slightest way and put doubt in the publics mind they will win.
Posted by Phil Tice (Member # 6370) on :
I find it interesting that you claim to not need counseling when the things you post are exactly the kinds of things you would say to a counselor. Seems to me you want someone to listen or you wouldn't have posted this in the first place.
-PT
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
BlackFox-- everyone in the world whines in their own special way.
Every group, every religion, every clique, has its losers, its whiners, its downers.
It isn't just Americans. It's human nature, and you are a part of us.
That's something that you're going to have to get over-- or die. Simply put. You are human. You need interaction and connection. Survival, and thriving depends on the bond that you create with other people. You cannot be just an object or entity.
Because you are an American, geographically and culturally, your best bet for making connections with others is with. . . Americans.
Get over it.
:shrug:
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
Thanks for putting in the paragraph marks. I actually can relate to some of what you are saying, though I hesitate to say I understand since I am not in your shoes. But I was pretty disturbed by folks' reaction to the "reinstating the draft" thread.
I think what you said about loving others and loving yourself was very interesting. The usual self esteem stuff drives me up the wall.
P.S. I think writing out your anger is actually fairly healthy. Reminds me I need to do some of that, though I probably won't be doing it here on hatrack (due to spouse maybe reading it.)
[ March 27, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: skrika03 ]
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
quote: I simply finally don't feel like holding it in anymore.
Ahem.
I can only go by what you have written, and what you have written is very familiar to me (as a former Army Family Team Building counselor). I stand by my recommendation.
quote: People would just sit there and have their problems solved for them.
So what would you have them do? Join the militia and go out and save democracy in small guerilla groups flying out to different troubled countries? Really, Paul, you can talk about how the 'urban elite' sits on their butts and lets soldiers like you do all of the fighting, but would you rather *they* be out there fighting under your commander?
Your admiration of the 'country man' is a mirage as well. The 'country man' is as speculative as the 'urban elite', they both talk and talk about the state of the world, that's what citizens do. They both vote to make their voices heard (or don't, as the case may be, but I believe the voter percentage is close to the same, demographically), they both complain about things, they both suffer from inertia (or do something about their situation). People are people, all the world over (as someone smart said once). Ignorance is not discriminatory on the basis of geography or education. Not the kind of ignorance YOU are describing.
Whatever.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
For the most part, I utterly and totally hate the average American soldier. This might come as a shock to many people, but it is honestly the truth now. Why is this? Well mainly it comes about that I find American Soldiers to be extremely conceited, finding themselves superior to the rest of us, because they see fit to put themselves in harms way.
He complains and whines when he should laugh and take heart at his situation. After all, he is the pillar upon which America is built, is he not? Me and my buddy Adam laugh and joke about his stock portfolio. He lost a large amount of money playing the market. He had to sell his car and his house just to make ends meet, and his wife divorced him because she couldn't stand to be with a loser. Now he has to pay child support, and he barely makes enough money to afford his own food and shelter. He is of course lucky, as my good buddies Evan and Joe were both in a huge car accident, and even though they received settlements, their lives have been forever altered. They live in constant pain every day, while the bastard who hit them gets a slight rise in insurance costs. My friend Dave was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and since he never got it checked, it spread throughout his entire body. Even after massive amounts of chemo, he'll probably die. Those are just the men that I know extremely well in my tiny band of brothers, so to speak. You know what, we had it easy, if you ask me. Average citizens before us have had to bear so much more and fight with so much less. Yet the American soldier looks down on us, saying we don't really know what hardship is, because we've never been to war. Well I've had enough.
I notice so many people go off to war and say that they are finally seeing the world. I always laugh at this as when you go to war you experience the life of war as at every stage of your life you experience life, simply through your lens. I will say that education through the experience of war helps people, and for the most part it is a very good thing that they're defending us. The thing is so many seem to believe that they know the world through a battle plan, through the plans and politics of others. And of course this is a good thing to a point, the thing is everything is skewed towards the people in powers point of view. The thing is I feel that far too many people who get put through the military are highly mechanical or entirely emotional. I will give an example, They believe in following the plan ( evil methodists ) the path of execution which will bring them the wealth, power, or even emotional pleasure that they wish. This of course isn't the worst of things. Then there are the emotional, those that believe in following ideals and emotions, love, hate, anger, pride, honor, etc. and basing there actions on those. What I seem to find most contorting is that all these ways of thought they always seem to be mostly for the individual.
- - - -
Of course those first couple of paragraphs don't really reflect what I believe. The names and situations are not real, though they are entirely plausible, and have occurred in many American lives. So I pretty much just copied and pasted what you said, Black Fox, and put you in the position that you think we average people belong in. I'm just hoping you'll read what I said above, and that it angers you, and that you feel insulted. Because you've pretty much come in here and expressed total disdain for me, and my family, and my friends, simply because we're regular citizens.
Yeah, you're a great guy.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
To say people are people around the world over is to say that tvs the world round are the same. Of course they are not, and some parts are better than others. There is no colony for me to escape to , no place to become a citizen. That and I do not mind doing all the fighting , it is when they will have you fight but half way, that as soon as things get tough for ME they want to make it stop. How does that make sense!!!! No I am tired of class, I am saddened that a culture is not ruled by that which is more correct, or that which would make it better, or happier in a more profound way. No it is judged and dealt by those who have power, the accumulation of it therefore is paramount to so many. It is not the society that would stand forever that will exist with humanity, no it is the one that will crumble in a hundred years, but accumulates the power to crush the one that would survive forever, or at least until the sun implodes.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I can relate to what you are saying. I have never experienced war first hand and in a lot of ways I don't want to. But I do want to find a way to make the world a better place and i regret that I don't have the power and the money to do it now...
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
I have to admit I thought someone would do something like you just did Fritz. I'll simply say this, I do not feel superior in any shape or form, believe me in this if nothing else. I don't think soldiers are much better than the average human being. I've seen a lot of soldiers/people do some amazingly stupid things, things I would not have personally done. I do not look down upon you, I simply look at you in disdain. I have to admit I hope that you are a bit angry, as I doubt any person would look at what I said and smile and be happy. But then its up to you. Very few people can look at themselves and find fault and not be angered. I have many faults, but I can't let that sweep me away in anger and not try to fix them. If someone corrects you something when you're doing something wrong you probably feel embarssed, I know that I do.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
To me, this post was very reminiscent of the one titled "We." by Anonymous517. Similar in that both posts expressed a sort of disillusionment with humanity in general.
I don't think that using Hatrack as a sounding board indicates a need for counseling. Many of us do that.
I agree that America has forgotten what war means, forgotten that it can be necessary yet still devistating. We have not had war on our shores for a long time. This country has enjoyed unprecedented peace and prosperity in all of my lifetime. We are rich as a country and swollen with our full bellies and relative comfort. I fear that I will live to see this nation have to defend itself in earnest.
I imagine that a lot of people in the military have these feelings of being unappreciated by the majority of their country. I have never been in the military, but I imagine it is a unique and powerful experience. When you are the one in charge of a certain job, it is always going to seem more important to you. You will often feel frustrated that so many around you do not see how important it "really is".
You have a unique point of view because of your experiences. I hear you, thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Posted by Chizpurfle (Member # 6255) on :
I have to be blunt. I see your post as hypocrisy at best. Yes, many of our views are skewed by our experience in life. However, so are yours. Just because you have been a soldier and have come to some conclusions through your experiences, does not mean that you are right.
Many people have been through experiences and many people have come to some conclusions as well. Yes, I know I sound like a bastard saying this, but having a more traumatising experience than others, does not make you anymore superior or right in your knowlege of the world.
Example: Everyone on my fathers side of his family has been killed. My parents spent their teenage lives working in Labor Camps. They have seen babies smashed against trees. Their friends and families killed and taken down by diseases. No, it was not pleasant.
Does, this however make them any more superior than the rest of us? Heck no. Does this make them know anymore better than the rest of us? No again.
Seek counciling. I see no reason why you should become so bitter at the world- it's not healthy.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
I don't mind being underappreciated, I do not wish for glory or honor. Even really respect. I really.. feel uncomfortable when people say they are proud of me for being a soldier etc. I simply am what I am, nothing more nothing less.
Posted by Phil Tice (Member # 6370) on :
I don't think using Hatrack as a sounding board indicates a need for counseling either. I think it's the nature of those feelings and thoughts expressed that indicates the need for counseling. When I say a person might need counseling, I don't mean that they need to admit defeat or that there should be any shame. Counseling somehow gets a bad reputation. Counseling is simply an outlet for people to get some perspective on the challenges they face. Everyone in every walk of life faces challenges, and eveyone could use some help sometime. The saddest thing is not when someone accepts counseling, it is when someone is too proud to accept help.
-PT
Posted by Chizpurfle (Member # 6255) on :
Okay, I feel bad. My post was a bit harsh.
I think my anger stems from the fact that I honestly do believe that there is good in many as well as the world. Does it mean that I am right? No.
You are really looking at the world in black an white way. To hate a certain group of people is still drastic but more understanding. To hate the average American is lumping everyone into one huge lump it's- no. The world is not that simple.
Reality does not work that way.
[ March 27, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Chizpurfle ]
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Paul, I agree with you that we in America like our comfort, and we prefer not to notice that most of the other people in the world are not nearly so well off as we. Also we sort of like to think we deserve what we have, instead of realizing that it is a gift.
But you are wrong to have contempt for people. There is much that you do not know. Everyone is given their own gifts, and called to their own callings. Have you done so well with yours that you can sit in judgement and contempt on others? That is a mistake.
Yet there is that terrible disconnect between the world as you now know it and the world as most of America thinks of it. That disconnect needs to be bridged. We need for you to tell your story. Everyone needs to hear everyone else's story.
Yet I will not lose faith, or grow bitter. Life is too sweet for that, and people too good. Good truly is stronger far than evil. And if there is great darkness, then how much more the honor to us when we prevail over it? No, I will not lose faith nor grow bitter. Love is still stronger far than hate. Knowledge always will conquer ignorance. I take a longer view.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
But counseling costs money. The 'rack is free! Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
beverly,
I respect your opinion, and I hope you are right, but I have counseled enough soldiers through trauma to be worried. I have been through classes for counseling, mentoring and team building.
This does *in no way* make me a therapist (or even a licensed counselor), but it gave me danger signs to look for when talking to Deployed and Returned soldiers. My husband's in the military and I used to be quite involved in the Family Readiness Group and Army Community Services when we were stationed in Alaska. When we moved, circumstances changed, and my volunteering hours were curtailed by my need to have a job to offset the Cost of Living Allowance we no longer received. That is too much information. Heh.
Anyway, I still hope that Paul gets counseling. I can't force him to go, and I can't make him believe that he needs to go, and he might not even need to go, but I know that if my husband returned from battle (with this attitude or not), I would urge HIM to go. And I would want to go (separately) as well. There are issues inherent in deployment (nevermind battle) that sometimes need a professional sounding board.
I'm just sayin'.
edited because everyone types faster than me!
beverly: counseling is free in the military
[ March 27, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: jexx ]
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
I counsel myself in my own ways through my own methods. I prefer to do so not so much in words, but actions.
Posted by Phil Tice (Member # 6370) on :
Pride rears its ugly head.
Free counseling is also available in the civilian world.
-PT
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Jexx, very interesting. Now that I take a moment to think about it, I have looked at those around me who have been in the military. I have thought that they have really been through a lot and that it often takes a toll on them. That is good that counseling in the military is free. Those in the military carry a heavy burden, and it is good to be able to vent.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Black Fox, I believe that words can be a form of action all in themselves. Is not the pen mightier than the sword?
After all, we don't go to war until words have failed us.
[ March 27, 2004, 10:00 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
quote: I have to admit I thought someone would do something like you just did Fritz. I'll simply say this, I do not feel superior in any shape or form, believe me in this if nothing else.
quote: I do not look down upon you, I simply look at you in disdain.
I hate to have to tell you this, Black Fox, but disdain is quite a bit worse than just looking down on someone. In fact, if you feel contempt for someone, it's pretty much implicit that you look down upon them. So you can claim that you don't feel superior, but your first post makes it pretty obvious that you do.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Paul, don't fall into the trap that so many of my military friends have: the assumption that your nobility is proven through your suffering, and the corollary that only your suffering can be noble.
Soldiers -- in fact, any small group under pressure for a long period of time -- tend to develop an "us vs. them" attitude; it's human nature, and I think it's especially bad for the military because they can't help feeling like all their difficulties are for the sake of the "them," whom they believe to be ungrateful and unappreciative -- and, ultimately, "lesser" people because they aren't willing to sacrifice in the same way.
It's a perfectly typical phenomenon. I've seen it happen to almost every soldier I know, and to all but two of the blacks I know who've gone into medicine; I think all you need is a hostile environment and a service career, and you've got the ingredients for this kind of resentment.
You're perfectly entitled to that emotion. You've EARNED it. But you have to decide whether you're going to cleave to the clique or belong to the rest of humanity -- a choice, I think, that everyone in your situation is forced to make.
[ March 27, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
This is interesting. Since the war...even back to version 1.0 during the previous Bush administration...there has been unprecedented support for the men and women in uniform. I think this war especially shows this. "Support the Soldiers, Not the War" type slogans have been in abundance all across the country since the first hints of going to Iraq. In fact, the biggest reason I hear folks saying this war is a waste is because we are losing precious American's lives pursuing weapons of mass distruction that may or may not exist any more. Regardless of why we are over there any more, US citizens are tired of hearing about the loss of OUR lives...regardless of how many we killed doing the job.
Just because people don't want soldiers over there, doesn't mean the don't appreciate the job of the soldier. Boo hoo, I say. People don't like garbage, but are thankful that there are folks who work tirelessly to get rid of it for us. Many people hate illnesses, but are thankful to those who work tirelessly to stamp it out or lessen its impact. Same with war...people are sick of war, but are thankful that there are soldiers to do it when needed.
Right now, there are just less folks that think we need it. It is like medicine...we have a love affair in this country with anti-biotics. These are good things when used correctly but we have overused them for sniffles for so long, we have lessened their impact in the future.
Same with the military. No one thinks we should get rid of it, but many think we shouldn't be wielding it like a child with a handgun as some think the Bush Adminstration is doing. In this case, we don't worry as much about the gun (the military) as the kid (Bush) waving it around.
fil
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Other military folks would need to confirm this, but isn't a sort of "counseling" a part of just leaving the service? I haven't been in touch with all my military buds since the first Gulf War, but one of my closest friends who served most of the 90's told me when he got out of the Army (he served with Armored Cav as a Scout) he was put through a week long "return to civilian life" type course in an effort to, I can only assume, "deprogram" people from the military life. One would think that at least some obvious concerns could be seen during this period if folks weren't "taking to" the "deprogramming" aspect of it. Did they or do they do this for folks returning from active duty now?
fil
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
In Voltaire's Candide, I think it is Candide who says that everyone has a story to tell, and everyone should tell it to the people around them, whether it brutal, gentle, ugly unbelievable or beautiful. People should tell the way their lens looks at the world.
Your story is honest, your thoughts are allowed, expected even. All you need is an ear, any ear.
After history's wars, there has been the same feeling from all those who were involved looking at those who weren't, and the ongoing themes and beliefs that Love Is Dead, Everyone Is Selfish, Why Can't They See? It's not new. It's desperation and confusion, leading into despair and disgust with the average being.
The story of Candide goes on to mock the idea that the world is perfect. Because of course it's not. You've heard that a thousand times. Humans are fallible. Nobody's perfect. Nobody can embrace, control, understand and give everything at once.
You know, of course, that 'Americans' aren't as bad as all that. You know that no one should go through what really amounts to terror, in order to experience 'life'. Life is what you see, it is, in your words, your lens.
You lent us your lens, now we'll lend you ours.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Black Fox,
Re: counseling. I can't say you should get it-I'm not informed enough on that. But I can say that it's a mistake to reject it automatically, too. There are some things, I think, that when said 'no' to before the sentence is even finished, need a re-examination. But that's your deal, of course, one way or another.
Re: hating Americans. Maybe the problem you have stems from the fact that you are focusing too much on human society, on human civilization, instead of human individuals. I think the problem here is that with any large group of humans, a careful examination will lead to at least one major disappointment. It's just the nature of things, I think. I can also say that without cynicism.
Maybe the problem with your focus is that it's too macro, and not nearly enough micro. You mentioned it yourself, having good things to say about individual Americans. Here's one of the problems with a macro look at Americans: what you see on mass media? That's not Americans, that's sensationalist, slanted (one way or another), self-absorbed bullcrap. You noticed it yourself, actually. You've surely had more than one example of that in your interactions with the press in Iraq.
Re: Americans' apathy. Maybe the problem you have here is, as others have said, apparently viewing this as an American phenomenon. But I think this is a human problem-very few of us are morally and ethically advanced enough to get very worked up about the suffering of people we have never met or hardly heard about. This problem exists in every nation on Earth. Do you think the people in Malaysia care much about suffering in Central America? Do Chileans concern themselves with the Tibet? I think the answer is a resounding "no".
This kind of apathy leads to different cultural and political problems in any given society, I think, but it's there none the less in every one of them. Unfortunately, I think, with America it's somehow worse, because we have the tools and the ability to fix problems in the world, and very rarely do so.
Re: American military as pawns in politics.
quote:Yet the civilian tells me when to stop, when I've had enough, he tells me how much I'm capable of giving up.
I can understand your contempt for this sort of thing, since by definition a person who opposes war on grounds including this is obviously not really concerned for you as a soldier, merely using you as a pawn. It is even more galling, I expect, because they disagree so radically with your position. But this kind of manipulation isn't just a forte of the 'liberal elite'.
It's used commonly by conservatives and Republicans as well. "You should support our troops!" is a cry often leveled at people opposing the Iraqi war, and while it's coming from people you respect more now, those people are also fixated on their standard of living, by and large. Almost none of them will ever write a soldier randomly, or go out of their way at all to honor a soldier.
What I expect they would do is something like this: minimum effort necessary to thank you and still preserve the facade that they "really care" about the American soldier. I think maybe you'll agree that even though it's maybe less galling (because they agree with you), they're still manipulating you and very fixated on their comfort level. Of course the problem with that is that it's certainly not a rousing endorsement of the 'average'* American, but I think it's just part of what it frequently means to be human these days. It's something we're trying to get over.
Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
quote: Other military folks would need to confirm this, but isn't a sort of "counseling" a part of just leaving the service?
No. There are several types of counseling. You can go to a friend or go thru your chain of command. You can go to a Chaplain (I never). Some medical bases offer counseling. Getting counseling is not necessarily (sp?) meaning you are getting out of the military. If you go for suicide reasons.....yeah, you get out.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
The secrecy is what I deplore. The spin. Let us have the light of truth on everything.
Paul, how can we accept your conclusions when we don't know your observations? You are a storyteller. Share with us your observations. Let us see the situation through your eyes. Then we will draw, perhaps, the same conclusions you drew. Or maybe we will even see something else over and above that which you see. Give us your respect to that extent, that you will share with us what you have experienced.
Reading over what you said, I wonder if your picture of the civilian world comes from observation of the government, or of government contractors. Empire building, blame slinging, rear covering, favor swapping, and position jockeying are common in that arena. Nearly everything but hard work accomplishing a job that really needs to be done, in fact. It's the nature of that system, (which rewards such and punishes the other) and I don't much like working under it.
In the real world of private enterprise there are companies and workplaces in which the opposite is true. Everyone pulls together as a team to accomplish what they set out to do, and professionalism and intelligence can prevail. They do exist. Our capitalistic system favors them. I have worked for several companies like that. They are not a sure thing, and human failings always exist, yet the magic is often there. If you look you can find it.
I agree that people who will try, and learn from their mistakes are worth much more than those who will only talk, and disparage others' efforts. I am proud of what we've accomplished over there, and I'm glad we did what we did. I hope I will be able to be of use there as well. It's an important and worthwhile thing, to free a whole nation. We certainly don't need to let thugs with bombs stop that.
[ March 28, 2004, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: aka ]
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
quote: I do not look down upon you, I simply look at you in disdain.
This statement really stands out to me... It doesn't make sense. Aren't they the same? I think disdain is even worse...
from dictionary.com:
quote: dis·dain tr.v. dis·dained, dis·dain·ing, dis·dains 1. To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise. See Synonyms at despise. 2. To consider or reject as beneath oneself.
You said in your first post that you were angry at the average American for being "racist", for not caring about the people in the world who are suffering. To me it seems racist that you would universally condemn every American.
Human beings are about communities. Whether it be the community of people living in your home, the community of the people living in your city, or the community of the people living in the world. It is beyond any one person to care about all the people in the entire world, and beyond any one person to help every single one of them.
It probably won't make any difference to you what I say, because it sounds like the hammer of your judgement has already come down upon the American people, but there are people in this world meant to help at home and people meant to help abroad. Comfort zones notwithstanding, people help where they can.
I just hate being condemned for reasons I can't control... It's impossible for me to join the military because of medical issues, and I've been prejudged because of my body often enough to hate it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Fox, I think you wrong average Americans. Yes, they're fat and lazy. Yes, they are self-centered. But, if you can get them to care about something, Americans are a extremely powerful force.
You don't see that there are tons of "average" Americans that do care. You aren't seeing that, like an anorexic girl, the stereotypical average American is more sinned against than sinning.
There is much about Americans to hate, but there is more to love. You'll not change them by hate. The bad parts are always going to be there, in one form or another, as they are in all people. It's what there is to love, it's their good, strong, amazing parts that can change the world. If these become strong enough, they can overpower the weaknesses that all men are prone to.
That's my American dream, that America provides the best place for all that is good in people to grow and to spread. If we can escape the bonds of our self-centered, comfort seeking prisions, it will be Americans that lead the world into a new shining day.
----
No offense to people from other countries. You're lovely too.
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
I always found it very hard to understand why many veterans of the Vietnam war had such a difficult time getting back to "normal". Reading Fox' remarks, I think I'm starting to get a vague idea.
A crucial part of military training, and of the preparation for an invasion like the one in Iraq, has to be deeply psychological. The soldiers sent over there have to be utterly convinced that they are doing the right thing. I'm pretty sure the army knows how to form the minds that it needs. It shouldn't be so hard; after all, every male (and quite some females) appreciate physicality and fraternity at a certain age. These things are obviously very important to Black Fox. They are a good foundation for shaping the convictions and types of behavior that are needed in a war-time soldier.
Now, Black Fox is also a thinker, and an unusually sensitive one. He is very different from the "naturals". (I will never forget overhearing a conversation where a mother told of her son, a US soldier in Iraq, who apparently very much enjoyed the adventure. His main objection was that after arriving in Baghdad, they couldn't "blow up" things anymore.) I do get the impression that there is some incompatibility between BF's personality and the army's basic psychological conditioning.
Perhaps at some point, it was fairly hard for him to decide whether he was doing the right thing. But he has made that decision a while back, and it has been reinforced by the circumstances ever since. I can understand that the opinions "back home", including those here at Hatrack, must hurt him.
Who am I to judge him, or to decide whom to blame?
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
I think the assumption that people's opinions are due to things other than rational exercise of judgement based on their obervations is insulting.
This goes for assuming soldiers believe they are doing the right thing only because of indoctrination, and also for assuming people who oppose war do so out of fear.
Why not give people who disagree with us the benefit of the doubt? Why not assume that it's possible for rational beings with different experiences and knowledge to come to different conclusions than we ourselves? I think that's the only sound basis for discussing the issues.
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
quote:If we can escape the bonds of our self-centered, comfort seeking prisions, it will be Americans that lead the world into a new shining day.
*grin*
Squicky, that's a huge "if", which removes your statement about as far from reality as BF's somewhat more disdainful view...
*grin*
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
aka, was this addressed towards me?
quote:I think the assumption that people's opinions are due to things other than rational exercise of judgement based on their obervations is insulting. ... Why not assume that it's possible for rational beings with different experiences and knowledge to come to different conclusions than we ourselves?
I actually agree with you. However, I try to take it one step farther, and ask:
Isn't the "rational exercise of judgement based on obervations" dependent on what kind of observations we are able to make in the first place?
Don't you think you can condition "rational beings with different experiences and knowledge" by providing them with selected experiences and knowledge?
I hate to bring up Nazi Germany, but since I am German I might just as well. I am sure that the opinions of the majority of those soldiers were "due to rational exercise of judgement based on their obervations". Do you really think we should stop our questioning at this point?
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
I'm saying that to dismiss someone's opinion by saying either 1) it's based on fear or laziness, or 2) it's because they've been conditioned to believe that, is insulting, and ends constructive discourse right there.
Posted by ginette (Member # 852) on :
Paul, your post made me cry and there is only one thing that I feel I would want to do and that is hold you, hold you, hold you.
quote: that one must evolve and become a human being that can handle and accept evil as readily as he/she can accept good.
No! I mean yes, this would rid a human being of the pain and suffering, but at what cost?
God bless you Paul.
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
quote:I'm saying that to dismiss someone's opinion by saying either 1) it's based on fear or laziness, or 2) it's because they've been conditioned to believe that, is insulting, and ends constructive discourse right there.
Yes. This is a perfectly valid statement. I agree again.
My only problem is, I don't think it applies to what I said. Because I haven't "dismissed" anything.
I have actually tried to understand BF. I have explicitely made clear that I am not judging, and I have tried to gently tell other people in this thread they shouldn't either. English is not my first language; I apologize if I haven't made my intentions clear enough. I do admit that I thought it could be rather helpful to BF if he'd be nudged a little into reviewing the origins of his convictions.
However, having spent 1 1/2 of the most wasteful years of my life in an army myself, I am quite certain, frankly, that every army does brainwash its soldiers to some extent. To believe otherwise is very, very naive. For example, an almost reflexive following of orders is rather unnatural to the human mind -- yet you won't win any war with soldiers who question each and every order.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Well Sal if you want to you can speak to me in German, Meine Mutter ist Deutsch. Kind of curious what your time in the Bundeswehr was like.
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
Fox, I did remember that you were part German! I also remember, from your posts a couple of years ago, what in the service you enjoyed and were proud of having achieved, as well as your scepticism about certain things.
Guess what: Myself, I actually served on the other side, in the "Nationale Volksarmee (NVA)" during the "Cold War". The Bundeswehr and you guys used to be our archenemies. You were totally trying to conquer my country, and "roll back" our socialistic society by re-establishing the outdated, inhumane system of slavery where everyone and everything was ruled by capital!
It turned out though that I had a bad back and some weird heart condition, so I was shut out of many things, and never got to improve my athletic performance. The doctor said I should never have been drafted, but then, everybody was. (Of course, we East Germans were all raised on steroids, so we'd have kicked butts even with an arrhythmic heart. )
I tend to think that this whole experience makes me some kind of self-made expert on the methods and effects of brainwashing.
With your current situation though (Are you back home or still "there"? If you're home, are you going back there?), I am extremely hesitant to speak my mind. See, I am one of those civilians who never supported the Iraq war (which is entirely different from the "war on terror", I think). I feel as if everything I could say would somewhat weaken your position. If you're still there, all that matters is that you stay (1) alive and (2) decent. For this, you can't let yourself be eaten up by too much doubt in the meaning of it all. Do the job, come home, and try to start over if necessary, okay?
And please, don't go nuts!
I have never been where you are, but I can absolutely understand that the degree of exhilaration during battle, the enormous depth of emotion both positive and negative--when interacting with the local people, or at the loss of friends--, and the occasional sense of achievement, are something that will make you feel extremely empty once you return to the shallow life of us "normals". And yes, most of us won't be able to imagine anywhere near how it felt, having never gone to such depths. If you think you'll miss it too much, you may want to consider a line of work that will every now and then give your endorphins one of those kicks...
As much as you mislike jexx' suggestion, please, don't dismiss it too easily, all right?
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
Hey Paul, just sent you an email (at the address listed on your hatrack profile- if that's the wrong address send me an email).
Get back to me sooner rather than later, k?
Posted by Pod (Member # 941) on :
You're missing some things here.
And ironically enough, this is something that a good education should help you with. You've assumed an awful lot. That there is some sort of archetypical american, which the polls represent. That this eigen-american does in fact represent a good deal of people out in the US/world.
This is a generalization that you have made based on some obviously, and even admittedly flawed data. If there is such a thing as the "average" american (there probably is given the 200 million people or however many americans there are), but the body politik that polls are supposed to represent are NOT gaussian/normal/bell curves. If i had to hazard a guess, right now i'd guess it's bivalent, america is polarized, so your "average" american given by the polls are going to look like a bi-polar manic-depressive. Why? It's because you've got (at least) two different americas which are trying to fight for influence, and that's simply borne out by the media. The american will isn't fickle, or weak, the american will isn't usually in the hands of one group for terribly long. Thats the point of politics.
I disagree with your assessment that the majority of americans are like your average american. I agree with you that some people suck, but writing off -everyone- for the reasons you've done is a misrepresentation of and disservice to other human beings. And i say that because i can come up with counter-examples to all of the qualities you attribute to the average american.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Random Thoughts:
---- I'm recalling a previous post of Black Fox's when he said supporting the soldier but not the war was impossible. I believe I took exception at the time.
Maybe it is education that alows you do draw the distinction, but the idea made sense to me before I was "ejduumicated".
If we agree that "hate the sin love the sinner" is a valid response where genuine religious beliefs are held. Why can't it be true, when it comes to genuine social beliefs?
---
My father disagreed with the premise of the Vietnam War yet he served his country during it because he thought it was his Duty, even if he probably could have gotten out of it. Does that make him a hypocrite?
As I was telling Anne Kate last night, he also decided to walk through Berkeley in the early 70's with a buddy while wearing their Navy whites. I believe he was actually spit upon and that they left before any physical violence acutally happened. The thing is, my father identifies with the peace protesters and could just as easily see himself sitting there as in his uniform.
---
We know Black Fox expected to be changed by the experience of war. It sounds to me as if he thought he could predict the ways he would change, and now is having to deal with the fact that he didn't change in the ways he thought he was going to.
---
Thirdly, while telling someone to seek counseling is likely to drive them away from it. I believe the ones who are doing so, are doing it from concern, because there have been significantly high, suicide-homicide instances from soldiers recently returned from deployment. I'll dig out the statistics but they are hard to find since the gov't doesn't like making them easily accesible to the public. http://www.bragg.army.mil/pao/Ft%20Bragg%20EPICON%20Report%20Redacted.pdf
There should be parenthesis around (Redacted) in the above link but ubb won't let me paste them in.
The most famous recent instance of violence is the (correction Siver Star not medal of honor)winner that returned from Somalia, and [correction]raped and sodomized his 12 year old daughter. His name was changed in the movie Blackhawk Down for that reason.
I don't really fear for Black Fox, as much as I do for Pixie if he did suddenly snap. There are NO good predictors for who will and who won't. I would think the collective guilt that Hatrack would feel in such a situation would be enormous, because we knew he was conflicted and yet we didn't do anything about it.
At the same time I do believe writing the words out is healthy, and a good step in the right direction since bottling things up is generally unhealthy.
AJ
[ March 30, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Fox, this is a powerful post.
I now remember how much we lost when you went to Iraq and couldn't post on here regularly.
You are saying things that are hard to hear for a lot of people. I hope their responses haven't been upsetting. (Never upset a man who can get his hands on automatic weapons people.lol)
You have gained experiences in life that I never will. There is no doubting of that. You have lost friends, and have seen pain that I can only imagine. You have helped good people in ways that I can only hope to understand. You have brought hope and order and your view of what is right to people who could not find these things under the weight of the Ba'athist regime.
And you ask us not to praise you for this.
You were only doing your job, doing your duty, doing what is right.
Then you complain that we, here in the safety and overwhelming comfort of the states, are weak and self/pleasure centered. As such we do not care about the rest of the world.
You also point out that our view of what you are going through is limited to the biased lens of the sensationalist reporters. I agree. I try to see beyond their limits, and hope that your experiences there could help us.
However, your views are also limited. You are seeing our response to your mission through those same biased media lenses, the ones wanting to show only the controversial, loud, and wild.
You see every time some politician demands your return to the states. You don't see the rest of us ignoring that uninformed idiot, are arguing against them, or standing up for the job you are doing.
I have been very critical of President Bush and how he got us into Iraq. That is for personal reasons. I feel personally betrayed by him, for I did trust his talk and trust his secret knowledge.
That does not mean I am critical of the job, the duty that you and those like you have performed. I am proud to be an American when I learn how well our soldiers have behaved and how much good they have done.
Right now, because of the freedoms you have brought to Iraq, there are people protesting and plotting how they will democratically take over Iraq. I know it will take some time for our troops to insure that democracy stays and no new bullies try to take advantage of the weaker Iraqies. To leave now would be to condemn those we have helped to chaos and destruction. It is what we did in Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat.
I am worried the President Bush will try to do the same here--We brought Democracy, now we go hide behind our oceans again.
That won't stop the stupid and the lame, the greedy and the self-centered Americans from making political advantage of all of this, just as orders don't stop some soldiers from black market corruption in Iraq, or the violent from beating prisoners. Just because a few idiots are in the mix, and get all the tv exposure, doesn't mean they represent the majority.
As far as therapy, I am no expert so I don't give that type of advice. I do have a friend who was in the military, served in Bosnia. He was a phsych major before joining up. He did not get any therapy. Today he still has trouble fitting into civilian life.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
aka, I am adamantly opposed to the idea that all people's behavior is the result of rational thought.
First off, what an absolutely horrible view of humanity that is. Do you really believe that all the horrible things that people do are the result of clear-headed thinking? I don't think that I could get up in the morning if I thought that. There would be no hope at all.
Thankfully, almost every single piece of scientifically verified evidence we have about human behavior shows that this view is untenable. There is so much evidenc to the contrary that some experimentally supportable theories suggest that no human behavior is the result of conscious decisions. In light of all the evidence, a person who earnestly tried to advance total conscious determination would be laughed at.
I'm sorry if you find this insulting, but I find your conception of human nature to be both appalling and extremely naive.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Fox, please, listen to jexx and Scott. I don't know enough to say and I haven't been through a war, but I know about traumatic experiences.
Heck, I think the worst thing that happened to Ender after everything was that no one tried to help him deal with his act. *hug* It's there for you, and so are we.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Fox,
Regardless of what anyone else says on this board, it's all right to feel what you are feeling, and to have the perspective you do. Sometimes I feel the same way you do, and I'm not even a soldier. Actions speak louder than words, and the "average American's" actions bespeak selfishness and naivete.
As an educator, I try to combat that. However, I must also struggle with the same faults within myself.
I'm glad you feel free, and among friends, here at Hatrack. I'm also glad that unsupportive opinions have not stopped you from staying mentally strong.
I think you know your own strengths and limits pretty well, perhaps more than most of us here. Take care of yourself, in whatever form that needs to take.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
AJ, the idea that Pixie is in danger from Paul is quite ludicrous. <laughs> I'm sorry but I can't help but laugh at that. I think you'd probably best leave that worry to her. (There was a post on the being-married-is-good thread by Pixie which you might want to reread, for instance.)
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Wow, if the bitterness surprised me at first, some of the reactions inside this thread are making me understand it more and more.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Really, aka? That's harsh. I thought most people were putting a lot of thought and care into their posts here.
I doubt Pixie is in any physical danger but that doesn't mean they won't grow further and further apart emotionally unless he learns to deal with some of these issues that have been brought up. She is an American, after all.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
Yeah, Theca, they do.
Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
Fox-
Your "military" not only taught you selflessness and honor; but it taught you that anything you loved could be taken from you.
My Dad is a Marine. He was actively enlisted for only 5 years, yet ...Semper Fi to the Corp. He was a bright, hopeful boy when they sent him to Vietnam in '61. He came back a silent, vengeful man who hates all people of color, trusts very few people and only gets along with men of similar age and experience. He's an angry, passive-aggressive man who looks back on his military days with something close to reverence and longing. The clear, black and white of following the rules, following orders were like a security blanket that swaddled him so tightly that nothing else will ever make him feel quite so safe.
I wish for more than this for you. You are a man now and can be the architect of your own destiny. You've always frightened me when you say that you're willing and ready to die; what I'd like to hear you say is that you're ready and willing to live. As an adult, you can choose to play it safe and push away love, people, happiness; or you can take a risk and live.
[ March 30, 2004, 02:34 AM: Message edited by: LadyDove ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
aka, I'm sorry, but murder/suicides in the military are one of those harsh realities that no one talks about but everyone remotely connected to the military knows exist. I come from a proud family military history dating back to the Civil war. My grandfather was a carreer miltary officer that retired a full colonel. He has two silver stars. He was a chaplain in Korea and Vietnam. He saw the worst. He was the one got to be on the scene to clean up the emotional mess on the base after a murder/suicide happened. My dad grew up a military brat and served his country with honor as well. The absolute worst statistics of these sorts of things are for the men on Nuclear submarines. Nuclear service is only ever voluntary as a result. My Dad was on one; he saw the worst.
While I didn't experience military life directly, I've heard the stories, I know what goes on. It is the reason why jexx is so concerned. She has been on bases that have gone through several murder/suicides. The data is an open secret. Do a simple google and you will find it.
I don't know Black Fox well. He definitely seems conflicted, I think we can all agree on that. It is not possible to predict who will *snap* and who won't. Therefore, mentioning this possiblity, however farfetched it may seem to you, seems to me to be prudent.
You are the one who is concerned about an asteroid hitting the earth. Lets say the odds are actually the same for Black Fox doing something henious (and the documentation shows the odds are much higher in his case than in the asteroid case). Yes, the odds are still thankfully slim for either catastrophe happening. Does that mean we should reject that the possibity exists?
AJ
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
To me, the soldiers over there ARE heroes. And if when they get home they have some wake up calls to issue to us at home, if they have things to tell us of which we are unaware, then I think we should listen to what they know.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I know too many soldiers personally to think that they're all heroes, or that I should be looking to any random one of them for moral guidance.
I know Black Fox enough to think that he, personally, is an intelligent and mostly wise young man, and respect him for his moral choices. But respecting him because he's a soldier seems rather back-asswards.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
aka, everyone has a story that will break your heart. A soldier sees a different world than most, and a more difficult world than many. It's how they choose to handle it that makes them heroic or admirable, same as everyone else.
As for Fox, it's his choice to live his life fostering this bitterness and judging every civilian he meets, but I don't think it'll be much of a life.
Posted by aka (Member # 139) on :
I think the thing that really upsets me is that we as a country all know that we need soldiers. We ask people to do this job for us. It is an honorable job, and they do it valiantly. They put their lives on the line for us, and they kill and are killed, essentially as our proxies in the world. Because of that, they are exposed to a side of the world that we never see, because we are safely insulated behind our "skin" of fighting young men and women.
When they come home, they deserve our honor and respect and thanks. They do not deserve to be handled with long poles because we are terrified of what they have become in the course of doing the very hard and heartbreaking job we sent them to do.
It's true that nobody knows who will snap. That's true of civilians as well. Yet as many extreme and in your face opinions as I've read here on hatrack over the years, nobody has suggested that the posters are a danger to their loved ones before. This is apparently the reality which returning soldiers face. Especially those whose fathers served in VietNam, as you mention, AJ, I can certainly see why it might make them tempted to become somewhat bitter against civilians.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"They do not deserve to be handled with long poles because we are terrified of what they have become in the course of doing the very hard and heartbreaking job we sent them to do."
But statistically, returning soldiers ARE a danger to their families and loved ones. I think, rather than denying this fact because it may offend, that we should concentrate on ensuring that this is no longer the case -- perhaps through some sort of mandatory deprogramming.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
anne kate I think it is tragic. I don't think that soldiers should be quarrantined or isolated from their loved ones.
Yet when the statistics say that there is far more chance of any given returned soldier snapping than there is in the general population, there is a problem that needs to be addressed. To deny that problem is to make it worse. If there are any signals that loved ones can be alert for, they should know them ahead of time and know appropriate coping strategies.
I guess as long as there is war it may be the best we can do. It's still tragic.
AJ
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
Fox,
I just have this to say, very similar to what others are saying: you will come back and you will be living among civilian people who've never been in a war. It is your choice as to whether you can make that life as meaningful or more meaningful or live in some sort of nostalgia for the time when you used to be needed and useful.
There are many ways to serve humanity.
We cannot always serve on the scale of the world, or a nation. Many of us must serve on a much smaller scale. But the smaller scale does not make it any less important.
The better part of the world does not exist only through the acts of a few valiant men and women. It comes from the good acts of every person who serves in some way. The mother who paces the room, holding her colicky baby who has been screaming for three hours. What can she do? She has done everything she can think of. There is nothing but to give the child a loving and safe place the episode passes. Could you do that? Hold a screaming infant, cuddling them as if they were smiling sweetly at you, for hours? They need it.
The suffering of people not in war is not whining. Some of it is very, very real, even if it is common. And the people helping them are doing what is needed.
My husband has been in the military. Served on the border patrol between Finland and Russia, at the time the Soviet Union. He doesn't know if he shot and killed someone because he wasn't the only one shooting. He spoke of being afraid of the programming he recieved in the military. He was afraid that if anyone did anything bad to his family he would simply snap and hurt or kill that person.
He didn't, but only because he now stays behind the lines while I take care of what is needful.
And that is the balance. We are strong for each other at different times and in different ways.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
From that link I posted earlier which is a pdf rom the Army Surgeon General. (don't forget you have to add the parentheses because ubb wouldn't let me put them in. Typos are mine because I had to manually typ since the pdf wouldn't let me cut and paste.
quote: From 1990 to 1994 in an anonymous survey 4% of returned soldiers self-reported severe aggresssion (defined as beating up, choking or using/threatening spouse with a knife or gun)
quote: A study conducted among U.S. Army combat arms soldiers deployed on peacekeeping missions to Kosovo showed that the number of adverse experiences in the operational setting in Kosovo (such as being shot at, seeing dead bodies, handling landmines etc.) had a direct relationship to interpersonal problems reported on returning home. Getting in physical fights, having serious conflict with family members, threatening or being verbally abusive, or having thoughts of hurting someone were reported significantly more frequently for those exposed to a greater number of adverse peackeeping experiences. Among soldiers who had more than 10 adverse operational experiences, 10% reported getting in physical fights, 20% reported threatening someone with physical violence, and 18% reported having serious conflict with family members or friends. Remarkably, this was not an anonymous survey, although it was conducted as part of a research protocol in which the questionnaires were kept separate from the medical record and therefore confidential
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I don't know what that page is like since the link no longer works, but you can, normally cut and paste from a pdf. You just have to switch tools (look up at the top of the screen and one should be a "Select Text" tool, the default is the hand.
Hobbes Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Yes I'll admit there are lots of problems for soldiers that are coming back from deployment. Many of which aren't just because of their experiences but simply what happens when you get back. Also in my company of 100 people plus there hasn't been one report of spousal abuse etc. Though I'll admit there were two cases right before we left. A lot of it comes from the attitude thats cultivated I'll agree with that, but then I believe its that mindset and cultivation of thought with normal reasoning which leads to a person being in combat. The idea is to create someone who understands the consequences of his action, but also always acts. In the military there is no action more wrong than no action at all. As we are always told, whatever you do end up doing, do it 100%. Plus the fact is most guys I know, a good 90% of my friends, joined the infantry to shoot guns and to kill people. They aren't murderers, just on the average they aren't adverse to the idea.
Good example I know, and this really can't go beyond this forum and I won't tell you what unit this comes from etc. A company had a soldier die during an amubush, through our intel assets we( I use we as in the army/soldiers) found out who equipped him. We raid his house only to find out he is in hiding. Instead we arrest all his male relatives and put out a bulletin that as soon as he peacefully turns himself in we'll give up his relatives. About two hours before the deadline ends this Terrorist/freedom fighter/capitalist ( they make good money) turns himself in peacefully at the company. They then procede to take him out back put a sack on his bag and hit him with body shots for 6 hours. From what I was told they even let the guys from their support platoon who delivered chow to go out back and have some "fun". To say the least I don't agree with tactics and actions as that, I consider it inhumane and unsoldiery. Doing such actions for intelligence reasons has some merit, to do so for the simple pleasure of causing pain to the enemy is without excuse in my eyes.
I'll be honest I have no problems killing a man, but to bring him pain for a meaningless reason, heck even with a decent reason is without forgiveness in my eyes. I know a lot of people that are like that in the infantry, they aren't so much bad people.. as in just someone who just.. had an odd way of though to begin with. I know dozens and dozens of individuals who have done something I would not agree with, and many of those persons have been dealt with under UCMJ ( uniform code of military justice). The fact is you don't turn pacifists into good soldiers/killers.
Again I don't feel I honestly deserve any respect for my actions. It is simply what I was told to do, and not a whole lot more. Its not like I wage war on my own discretion. I fight where I'm told to fight. Also I find problems with the post earlier that talked about the medal of honor winner who raped his daughter etc. For one the only two people to win the medal of honor in Somalia where the Sergeants that were froms 1st SFOD ( Delta force to you guys). They were snipers who asked to be inserted to give covering fire to the wounded 160th aviation pilot below. In doing so they knew they basically put their lives down to attempt to give the pilot enough time so that help could get there. They were turned down repeated times by their command until eventually they were given the okay to be dropped in. Second the man who did that was a sergeant from Ranger Battalion and he only won the silver star, though obviously what he did was wrong no matter what form of honor or achievement he had previously.
My father told me on multiple occasions that the best soldier is a child. The reason for this is that most children do not understand life, they don't understand that it can honestly end. As in the feeling of immortality so many have that fades off very quickly in combat or any risky situation. He said a child was an emotional beast and easily swayed into a way of thought. Basically a young man for the most part is still a child, but has the physical ability of a man. That is why basically he makes the best warrior of all. He still looks for his niche, his acceptance, and is easily bent to that of being a warrior without fear. As the only fear one can have is to be left on the battle field, something that the army has ingrained in itself never to do.
The reason I dislike the average American for the most part is simply what I find to be his lack of action. I do not get this from the mass media, some novel or text book. I simply gather this from first hand experience. The people that I know always seem to let their passions go for this reason or that. That their values and beliefs are not worthy of action, of word, of a simple vote. It is that your neighbor extends beyond your neighborhood, nation, creed, religion, or thought. That even though you may hate the enemy you must love him as well. As he deserves more love than most as he is willing to act upon his beliefs, even if those be the opposite of yours.
I went to our Chaplain today and had a little chat with him for a little bit to tell him how I feel. He told me that I shouldn't worry so much as their are many people who respect me for being a soldier and beleive that what I did was a good thing. That they value the action as much as the postion. I told him that what hurt me the most is that it seemed so few people acted upon what they believe, and that those that did seemed to only think the opposite of what I did, which isn't the worst thing in the world. I could very well simply be the evil, the wrong in the world. He said that I shouldn't simply look around, look at him, all my compatriots and see that there are quite a few people that feel the way that I did. It did make me feel a lot better, I'll be honest. He gave me a few little sections in the bible to read and those words made me feel better. I supppose I simply wish that America would be more than just a nation with a massive amount of potential for good great change.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Black Fox, Steve yelled at me about the Medal of Honor things too (he just read it) The guy lived. He got a Silver Star not the CMOH. I just put a retraction it in the original post.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
And Fox, thank you for talking to a chaplain. I think most of us only get so riled up because we care and fear for you, because we know you have been through experiences we can't comprehend.
AJ
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I'm posting this in response to your initial post, Black Fox. I'm sorry I didn't read it sooner, but I failed to realize what it was based on the title and thought I didn't have time for even opening it earlier.
Here's the thing, I found some real beauty in your post. Not that I like being "an American" that you now hate. But I think I see your point. And I do understand the desire to be just an entity and not need to be labelled or affiliated.
I have a globe in my house. It's the only kind of globe I want to think about. It has the continents and the ocean depths, but no country boundaries at all. The continents are identified by name, but no boundaries for which group claims which piece of dirt.
I like to think of the Earth that way.
As for the rest of your post, all I can say is that you will have to judge for yourself where to stop. If you become insular and negative, that's not good. It could be a sign of some after-effects of the combat stress you went through. Or it could be that you are disconnecting from the world around you. And that's not a good thing.
But if it feels like you just need time to decompress and maybe reevaluate, it's probably just fine.
What I can't do is even begin to relate to the situations. My daily life doesn't involve bloodshed. If I'm bleeding, then something is wrong. Pretty much true for everyone here at home. There, you're doing a job that involves it every day. And you had to willingly enter situations that could result in your death or serious injury. I can't even imagine it. And I probably wouldn't do it unless directly threatened (me or my loved ones).
But I can understand completely the idea that, having gone through that, you would not want to associate with the folks who hadn't.
If the natural state of mankind is war, however, then I'd rather not be human. If that is the state during which we achieve our best, I'd rather we go extinct.
I believe it is unnatural and aberrant. I believe that people were not meant for killing each other to achieve any particular end goal. And I believe that we should work hard -- very hard -- to avoid it. Even in the face of grinding evil.
But that's just me.
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
oh also Bannana the Ranger who did that was of all things a Clerk, that being supply. Wasn't an infantryman, he didn't hack up his wife and daughter and rape them. However he did rape and commit sodomoy with his daughter ( I believe she was 12) and is in Fort Leavenworth for a 30 year prison sentence. Might I say that its not a prison you want to go to. Plus if I'm correct the army punishmet for rape is higher than in civilian courts ( I know the max sentence is death), but lets not get into that really. Just don't like it when people try to over exaggerate things like that. I can't believe you think he hacked up his wife and daughter and won the medal of honor. Might I say a bit of a drama play there.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm sorry, Fox if I got the facts wrong. I was not actually trying to employ drama. I corrected the medal of honor thing as soon as I knew I got it wrong.
I am discussing it with Steve, we both heard the story at the same time from a Ranger who went in and replaced the men who were in the Battle of Mogadishsu -Basrah Market. I had no reason to believe he was exaggerating at the time, being that he was not generally given to braggadocio.
It is possible at the time it was more of an urban-miltary legend and the facts of the inqury had not been determined. But I believe that the person telling me thought he was telling the truth.
AJ
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
I generally try not to post in Foxy's threads or ones he frequents a lot because I can chatter things out with him later on my own so I won't say much now but I do want to make one thing clear:
Paul has never threatened me verbally, with a knife, gun, or with any other weapon you can think of, including just his physical strength. He has never choked me, never hit me, never hurt me. As far as I'm aware, we had no "interpersonal problems...on returning home", there was no "getting in physical fights, having serious conflict, threatening or being verbally abusive, or having thoughts of hurting someone". Only the contrary, he was and is extremely gentle with me.
And not just with me either. My little brothers could exhaust the patience of a saint and Paul never once lost patience with them (at least not to the point of actually doing anything), even though he had ample opportunity to do so on more than one occasion.
Please know that Paul has not done any of the things mentioned, nor do I think him capable of ever doing so. He may get frustrated with people but, as he himself just said, he does not enjoy hurting other people. He is a genuinely good and caring man (one of the best in my opinion), and that is something I believe even those who don't agree with him would be forced to admit if they took the time to really know him. Oftentimes, it is those who have the greatest capacity for love that also have the greatest capacity for hate - the same holds true for light and darkness: you can not have one without the other, at least not in full awareness of what each actually is.
I am sorry if this came off strongly, but so is the nature of my beliefs on the matter.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Didn't he get the Silver Star for his isolated act of valor having nothing to do with his actions after that? I thought the rules were basically the same but even more stringent for the act of valor required for a Medal of Honor and that it was isolated to that specific heroic act not the way the individual lived the rest of his life. It isn't some "lifetime integrity award". Though I realize that the Medal of Honor it is mostly presented post-humously so there might not be any further "life". But every now and then someone lives.
AJ
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Pixie, I am not afraid so much that Paul will hurt you (and I don't believe I ever posted such a thing), I am afraid that Paul will struggle with his feelings and harm himself emotionally, mentally, whatever. I realize that I do not 'know' Paul. I realize that I cannot know what he has gone through. I merely advised that he seek counseling. I don't see a problem with that.
I'm not posting anymore in this thread. I expressed my concern, and that is that. If you or Paul, or anyone else, wants to discuss this further with me, you can email me at sewsquare@yahoo.com, because I am banning myself from this thread.
It is what it is.
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
I just wanted to say publicly that I did not intend to offend anyone in any way whatsoever. I simply wanted to clarify an issue that, to me, was important.
I really do appreciate everyone's concern more than I can say - it's one of the things that kept me going throughout the deployment in the first place. For that, and for the support you all continue to give even now - Thank you. Your advice was good, Jexx - I even quoted you to Paul while trying to convince him to see someone. Just... Please don't be offended. Insulting you or anyone else was the furthest thing from my mind while writing that post.
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