This is topic My child's in trouble AGAIN! in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
He's making me crazy. Worse, he's driving the staff at school nuts.

Back up...last year, kindergarten. He was only in class for 2 1/2 hours a day, and was getting in so much trouble he didn't even want to go anymore. He'd even cry when it was time to go. Adding to the frustration level was the fact that I wasn't allowed to even stand in the hall and observe while class was in session, so I couldn't really be sure what was going on. It got so bad that I pulled him out of school after Christmas and homeschooled him for the rest of the year.

Over the summer, we moved to a new school district. He was doing SO much better, up until February or so...

Today, the principal called me. Two weeks ago, he got in trouble on the playground for throwing rocks at one of the other children. She sent a slip home for me to sign and return, and suspended his recess for a week. He sat out the first day, but hasn't since.

Last Friday, he had to serve a day of ISS because of this. His teacher reminded him this morning, right before lunch, that he HAD to sit out recess for the rest of the week. Well, he ate lunch and went outside. At least 7 children reminded him to go to the office, and he refused. So, after lunch, he was called to the principal's office. Then she called me at work. He's getting a spanking at school as we speak.

His behaviour has deteriorated at home too. Is he just not mature enough to handle his grade level? Is he mad at me for working so much? Is he more upset about the new baby than he's letting on? ::sigh::

Only 4 more weeks of work, baby's due in 5 weeks, school's out in 6 1/2. Maybe this will work itself out over the summer...or maybe I'm just sick of being away from my kids. Maybe I shouldn't work at all next season. Maybe I shouldn't send them to school after this year either. He was *so* much happier and easier to get along with over the summer last year. I just don't know...
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 

quote:

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He's getting a spanking at school as we speak.

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quote:

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Adding to the frustration level was the fact that I wasn't allowed to even stand in the hall and observe while class was in session, so I couldn't really be sure what was going on.

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Stupid schools.

I would homeschool, Boon. I really would. If at all financially possible for you, then I would consider this. Your kids will probably also need more time with you, especially when the baby comes along.
 

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Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
 
(((Boon))) I don't have any kids, so all i can offer is hugs. I hope it all works out.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
No, it's a public school. I signed a slip at the beginning of the year, but attached a restriction: I MUST be notified in advance and given the opportunity to attend and/or reject the punishment.
 

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Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
 
I've *never* heard of a public school doing that. I must be out of the loop.

I don't know, Boon. I think it sounds like your son would be better off with you, or at least outside of a school that...for some reason...can't enforce a child going to the pricinpal's office? In elementary school, our teacher's took us from class to class, and out to recess...how is it that your son went to recess in the first place? Why wouldn't a teacher have forbidden him to accompany?

*so confused*
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Wow, spankings in a public school! I didn't know that was still possible.

I don't have kids, either, so my opinion isn't worth much... but I think PSI has a good point. Usually I'm not a huge supporter of home schooling, mainly because of socialization and independence issues, but he's so young that I doubt he'd be missing out on much in the public school system. And you'd have plenty of time to reintroduce him to the system once he does grow out of these problems he has with school. It might give him a better foundation in life than this unpleasant school situation would give him. I don't know.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Boon, I don't understand. He has consequences at school (no recess for a week), but they don't follow through to make sure that he takes consequence? They don't enforce their rules? Or do they expect the kids to just police themselves? If so, it sounds to me like your kid is definitely worth keeping -- he doesn't follow rules just to follow them. He tries to find out why they exist and tests them constantly. That's a smart kid.

Two things really alarm me about this school -- the first is above (consequences that are not followed through, with spanking as the only punishment actually administered); the second: they won't let you observe the class in session? If this is a general policy they have, and if it were my child, I would pull him out of the school immediately. Today. There is too much room for abuse and no way to know who is telling the truth.

(Btw, my son's school still has corporal punishment, but if they administer it more than once or twice a year, that's rare. I don't advocate spanking, largely because I think it's a fairly ineffective discipline technique, but figure with the guidelines this school has on its use, it won't do much harm. I'm alarmed by how your school is choosing to administer it.)
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
The whole "not letting me observe class" thing was at the old school. Not this one.

He was reminded every day before lunch to go to the office when he was finished eating. Heck, *I* reminded him every morning too. The kids are watched while they are in the cafeteria, and when they're finished eating, they get up, dump their trays, and go outside. There are teachers out there too. They're not unsupervised.

So, he was reminded every day and still refused to go. He was told if he didn't, he'd get ISS. BTW, he HATED that! But it wasn't enough to get him to sit out recess today. So he got paddled.

Ya know, if I tell him to clean his room and he doesn't do it, I don't jump right to spanking either. But I WILL do it if I need to.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
What's ISS?
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
In School Suspension
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
What does that mean, In School Suspension? What do they do with him if he's in school, but suspended?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
I remember one time in the seventh grade I got a solid week of ISS for possession of "Fart Spray" because, inexplicably, it qualified as a minor bomb.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
Yep, he had to sit in the office all day and do his school work there. Lunch was brought in. No friends, no toys, no fun.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
So tell me if I understand correctly:

1. He threw rocks at some kids and the consequence was to lose recess for a week.

2. Each day, he goes to the cafeteria, has his lunch, and is then expected to go either to the office or back to his classroom until recess is over.

3. If he chooses not to go back to the office or classroom in lieu of recess, the consequence is ISS for the rest of the week?

4. When he chose not to go back to the office or classroom, instead of getting ISS, he got a paddling.

Is that right? Is he what you'd call a strong willed child?
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
So what will he miss in the last five-six weeks of 1st grade if you pull him out now? Will they refuse to promote him to 2nd if you choose to pull him out "to see what it troubling him?" Or will they gladly say "take him home from now until through summer and see how things go?"

My son was like this in K-1. The principal once said to me that my son was the ONLY kid he ever had at that age that didn't give in to the ISS -- he would sit in the office all day, more than one day at a time, and not to a fricking thing. Didn't matter to him that he was out of class, away from the other kids, or couldn't do recess or spend time with them at lunch. He preferred to be alone. So he just sat in the office. And sat. and sat. Didn't help him a bit.

Yeah, I pulled him out and homeschooled him, mainly because I realized I really needed to know what made him "tick" a lot deeper than what I thought I knew -- so I could figure out how he thinks and how to help.

You'll get through this okay, Boon. Hang in there. My kids are now all older teens -- we made it through those rough years.

Farmgirl

[ April 05, 2004, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
Not quite.

1. He threw rocks at a child suring recess. The consequence is to sit out recess in the office for a week.

2. After a few days of reminders and refusal to sit out, he was told he'd get ISS for one day for not sitting out.

3. He refused to sit out again, got ISS, and was told that the next time it happened he'd get a spanking.

4. He refused to sit out again, he got paddled.

He's not normally this strong-willed. This stubbornness is a relatively new thing.
 

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Posted by Paul36 (Member # 6339) on :
 
I'd be careful about homeschooling right now. He does need to learn how to act in socially acceptable ways while you are not around. Maybe it's maturity... who knows, but if he's generally been doing alright this year, you might give it some more time before making your decision. Good luck!
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Ah. That makes more sense. It sounds like this school has a lot more on the ball than I thought originally.

My suggestion: Ask the school to stop reminding him, and don't remind him yourself. He's smarter than the average bear. Reminders may have one or two messages to him: 1. I'm not smart enough to remember what the consequences are even though you told me what they were. 2. Every time you remind me, you're trying to take all the control; I'm going to do everything in my power to show you how little actual control you have over me.

Next, when he has made a bad choice (as in, going to recess instead of the office), be empathetic about the consequences. "Oh, honey, that's so sad. That was a bad choice. I always feel sad when I make a bad choice too," said with a hug. I know it sounds hokey, but it works. When he sees you're on his side without excusing his behavior, there is no reason to keep making his own life miserable.

So when he gets home today, don't say anything about the paddling unless he brings it up. He already took his punishment. He understands why he got it. (Though if you're not sure he does, you could ask him some gentle questions like, "Why do you think that happened?" and if it seems like he's just being unusually dense and wanting to put the responsibility off on someone else, you could say "Well, honey, if you can't figure it out by tomorrow, let me know and we'll talk about it more.")

If he brings it up, be empathetic, but don't excuse his behavior or choices and don't lay any responsibility on the school. He was warned...he made his choice, and he had his consequence. He will have to decide if he wants to make his life hard or easy. And if he can learn that in 1st grade, he's WAY ahead of the game.

From what you've described, he sounds like a real keeper -- I like him already.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Boon, I remember that awhile back, there was trouble between you and your husband, and that for some time you thought that the relationship might be ending. I have no idea what's going on with that relationship now, of course--it could be that the problems have been worked through, and that the relationship is healthier than ever. If it isn't, though, it's possible that your son's acting out could be related to his perception of trouble at home. Does that seem like a possibility?
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
Things are mostly worked out on that issue, thank you for asking. I don't think home issues involving that are the issue...if it IS home issues, I think it would be more along the lines of the new baby, me working, or, well, I don't really know what else...
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
As far as socialization goes, there have been numerous studies that indicate that early homeschooling actually IMPROVES long-term social skills, rather than hinder them. The emphasis is on the word long-term. You may see a homeschooled kid that doesn't seem to fit in well, but it's not necessarily because they aren't socializing. It's more because they have a better grasp of who they really are, and tend not to "go with the flow" and just do whatever their peers do.

Please read this article.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
((((Boon))))

I don't have any answers for you, but I know what it's like to be in your shoes.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
In addition to my previous post, I'd have to say that if socialization means fitting in with some of the mini-gorillas that attend the schools around me, I'd rather my kids be complete outcasts.
 

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Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
 
Have you determined the circumstances under which he was throwing the rocks?

I don't generally approve of rock throwing.

But, I can think of at least two excellent reasons why rock throwing would be more than appropriate.

Perhaps he feels like he has a good reason, and no one wants to know what it is, so he's not going to submit willingly to the punishment.

I kind of have one of those personalities, so that's why I ask.

SW<----Who only got in trouble 3 or 4 times in school. Yeah, I'm a sicko.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I'm glad that you've worked through that situation! I've been wondering about that.

Have you tried sitting him down and asking him why he's doing what he's doing? With some kids I've known that would work wonderfully, and with others it wouldn't work at all.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
SW, I'm pretty sure there aren't any circumstances under which rock throwing during school recess is okay.

At home, outside, yeah, I can see it. (A couple of summers ago, I took a couple of neighbor boys to task for throwing rocks at -- and striking -- one of the boy's little sisters. In retrospect, I should have stayed out of it -- she started it and had the natural consequence of not only having bad aim, but picking the wrong people to throw rocks at. I should have stayed out of it.)
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
All I can seem to get is "I'm sorry, Mom. I just don't know." Tearful. Emotional. Poor guy.

Not that he gets out of trouble that way or anything, though.
 

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Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
 
SW, I'm pretty sure there aren't any circumstances under which rock throwing during school recess is okay.

jeniwren: You have a very limited imagination, then.

Little boys are ALWAYS taught to take care of themselves. It is just the way they are treated and socialized. Protection of boys is not a high priority.

If other kids were throwing rocks at him, or otherwise attacking him, self-defense rock throwing (IMHO) is perfectly acceptable.

Of course, the best alternative would be for him to go to a teacher and have that teacher put an end to it.

But boys are not encouraged to go to a teacher for self defense reasons, first of all.

Second, maybe they had him cornered, and he couldn't get help.

Third, the teacher would have probably ignored his plea for help (been there). So, maybe he had to take care of things himself.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
YEAH! Why is it that teachers always tell you to come to them before taking matters into your own hands, but then if you come to them, they tell you to sort your own problems out? What's up wi' that?
 

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Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
 
Most adults like to think they can solve any problem. But sometimes the solution takes some effort to achieve!! At that point, most of us, (including teachers) take the easy way out and just ignore it, until the kids take matters into their own hands.

Of course, we're really good at dishing out the "spankings" when that happens. Hey, it's easier to make some kid sit out recess or get a 30-second spanking than it is to actually spend a half hour and try to prevent the problem in the first place.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Boon,
Is there a chance your son has a learning difficulty he is trying to hide with his poor behavior? This might be unconscious or conscious, but lots of kids get themselves into a behavioral box they can't get themselves out of. Everyone expects them to misbehave, and they get to a point where it feels uncomfortable to get positive feedback.They don't know how else to behave, because no one(and I am not implying you here) has actually explicitly told them that throwing rocks is not OK, and why. Or, he could get that throwing rocks AT someone is wrong, but gleefully throws rocks at a playground target, thinking he is doing the right thing.

It sounds like the teachers are expecting him to know things that he just doesn't know. Because no one is telling him, he is just doing things, and seeing what reaction he gets. The reason he is so comfortable at home might be that he knows what you expect, and feels safe with you.

It is very hard for me to hear that a person other than you is putting their hands on your child, though. I know that corporal punishment is still around in some states, but my blood is boiling just thinking about someone hitting my child.
 

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Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
 
I'm a spanker. But I do *not* want anyone else spanking my child. That's just weird. Of course, your prerogative. I don't intend to criticize you, Boon.

I completely hear where you are coming from. Luckily, my Christopher seems to be on a turn-around, but he had a Very Tough Time with Kindergarten in the beginning of the year (there is a thread around here about it somewhere). We were very lucky to have a nurturing set of teachers (Christopher requires hugging, it's like food) and a good school counselor who took the time to talk things out with us and create an action plan to help modify his behavior.

I said that to say this: I know how heartbreaking it is to hear your child say that he doesn't know WHY (and have him honestly mean it, not just trying to get out of consequences) and with the crying and everything. Ugh. When Christopher does the fake crying, I am totally unsympathetic, but when he honestly doesn't know why he is doing a thing, I can see how frustrated he is, and it makes me very sad. Poor monkeys. They are trying so hard to be humans!

I also echo wanting to know the 'why' behind the rock throwing, though. Of course it is Never Appropriate To Hit Someone (that's how I say it at home), sometimes, well, there's a reason. Not an excuse, a reason. Hmm.

Hang in there, Boon. There is some good advice in this thread. I wish I had some, too. I just can only give you hugs. (((Boon))) There. That's all I got.
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
Going one step further than Elizabeth, have you thought about having your son see the school counselor or special education team?

From the pattern, I've seen -

- Constantly in trouble at kindergarten, with a day limited to only 2.5 hours.

- The behavior and unwillingness to go became so bad that you had to switch schools

- The behavior corrected temporarily, but has again begun to decline

- He's been violent, rebellious, and unwilling to accept blame or punishment for his actions

- His behavior has deteriorated at home, too

- When questioned, he doesn't seem to understand what the problem is. As you put it he just "doesn't know".

As a teacher, all of these things are throwing up big red flags. This is not to say there is a learning disability or any other problem, but there are enough indicators that I would suggest having him evaluated by the school counselor, psychologist or child study team.

There could be a hundred reasons why he is acting out, and traditional methods of behavior adjustment might just exacerbate the situation. Pulling him from one school to the next, or pulling him out to a home school environment is not helping the situation either, as he is not being allowed to develop a sense of stability in his environment.

Please, please, please have him talk to someone who could determine whether there are deepter issues at work. Even if there's nothing there, you'll at least have ruled that out. And if there *is* something there, there are definite strategies you can use to solve (or ease) the problem.

Now, I don't know anything about the events concerning you and your husband, but that may also have had an effect on him. He may need counseling to work through his feelings toward the both of you, or towards his new school.

What I'm saying is, don't try to solve this on your own. There are plenty of outlets for help, and his problems just *may* be deeper than you know, or easily corrected in ways you have not yet thought of.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
And the earlier, the better.
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 
I am not a spanker.

(Actually, that's not true, I do spank until they're old enough to reason verbally, then I stop. My view on this is that sometimes an instantaneous punishment such as spanking is warranted for things like running away from a parent into a street with a car coming. If a child doesn't talk, then they have to have their views corrected another way, immediately. As soon as can reason, then the spankings cease which is usually 2-3 years of age.)

And like jexx, I don't have an issue with people who choose to spank. I don't even disagree. For me, however, my tactic has worked well for me.

But, like jexx, I think it's strange to ever let anyone other than me lay a hand on my child. A parent is a parent for a reason. Let the school punish in any other way they want. The physical punishments belong to me -- And I choose not to do it that way.

[ April 05, 2004, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Trogdor the Burninator ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
You know, oddly, my father had the same view, but a completely perverse one, as opposed to Pat's completely sane one.

He'd be damned if anyone ELSE beat the crap out of his kid. Good to know he had some priorities.

Why the heck are my parents on my mind lately?!

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...
 

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Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
 
Mack -- the more I hear about your parents the more I'd like to physically assault them.


 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I am also really surprised that a public school allows spankings. To be honest, a part of me is impressed. I know that schools used to do this in previous generations, but it is seems to be really frowned upon now. I think that sometimes a "good spanking" can speak volumes to a certain children in certain circumstances. I don't side with the belief that you must never spank a child, and I admire that the school has the "guts" to go against what I thought was a societal taboo.

Has anyone here read "Starship Troopers"? That book had an interesting perspective on corporal punishment. I don't fully agree with it, but I find it very interesting. Heinlein basically puts forth the idea that corporal punishment is the secret to a utopia society. Well, that is a gross exaggeration of what he says, but he presents some interesting ideas about the effect of "pain" on learning. He suggests that a criminal would be less likely to break the law if his punishment were a public flogging than if it were jail time. I honestly don't know how much (if any) truth there is to that.

Anyway, off of the tangent, you mentioned homeschooling. My sister-in-law has a child with strong behavioral problems and she has started out with homeschooling, using techniques tailored to his special needs. It has done him a lot of good, and she is now easing him into public schooling. I hear he is doing quite well. It seems that her decision has been a very good thing for him. But I have no way of knowing if it would be helpful in your situation.

Sorry I can't be of more help! Our oldest, our son, is a bit of a handful himself and I worry about him when he enters school this next year. He is very strong-willed with an overactive sense of "justice". I am so worried that he will be a bully!
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
spanking pros and cons...

I am surprised that there are schools that still do it, but not surprised that the schools which do are in the midwest <grin>....

Sometimes I can see where it can send a strong message to a child (like the time I got swatted at school for climbing up above the stalls in the girls' rest room -- believe me, I never did THAT again).

But other times.....there was the kid in our class named Brent (I think -- it was primary school -- long time ago). He got sent the principal for paddling with the big paddle at least once per day. Sometimes more. Over and over.

Obviously, it wasn't helping this guy. When the discpline tool quits becoming effective, they need to quit using it. This kid ended up getting paddled for every little offense, and blamed for everything that went wrong.

Then one day he never came back to school. I never heard what happened to him, and always wondered.

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
First let me say thanks for the advice and encouragement.

Here's what happened yesterday after school:

I picked the kiddos up. On the way home, like always, we had the "How was your day? Did you learn anything?" conversation. I heard nothing new. Dan chose his words carefully, and only told me about the trouble he got into in the classroom. I think this is because he had already read what's in the folder he had to bring home yesterday. (They send it home every week to be signed and returned.)

When we got home, I asked both of the kids if they had homework, told them to go change and put their backpacks away. I asked them both if there was anything else they wanted to tell me about school. Dan said, "No" and immediately turned tail for his room. I called him back and sent them both outside to play.

After dinner, I sat down on the couch to read for a while. Jen went to her room to play dress-up, and Dan fetched his current book and crawled up on my lap to read.

"Dan?"

"Yeah?"

"I know what happened in the principal's office today."

Pout.

"I'm sad that you got in trouble for your choices. I'm very sad that you didn't tell me yourself. I'm here if you want to talk about it, okay?"

"Okay, Mom. I love you."

"I love you too."

That's it. He didn't want to talk about it.

I called the principal this afternoon, and he sat out lunch recess. Maybe this one's over...
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
((Boon))

you're such a good mom.....

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Keep it up, Boon, and it will get better.
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
Boon, far be it from me to criticize the way you're handling this, but I still think you should have him evaluated by a school (or outside) psychologist.

This is the way I read your last update:

- He was closed about the trouble he got into, and only told you because he knew you'd find out through the weekly report.
- He did not tell you anything about his punishment.
- When it was revealed that you knew, he still was closed about talking about it.
- No resolution was achieved regarding future behavior.
- No indication was given that he understood *why* what he did was wrong or *why* he was punished.

If something else happens (and, I have a gut feeling this should be "when something else happens"), what then?

Now, it seems to me that the school is aware that your son is having a problem and that they have already implemented a form of behavior modification (the weekly signature sheet). Have they suggested any other steps to you? Have you asked if any other steps can be taken to see if there are deeper issues at work?
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
The weekly signature sheet is for all the kids, from the beginning of the year.

And...you were right, it was "when", not "if".

This time, though...I don't know.

Here's what the note the principal sent home said:

"4 strikes before noon (1 said he was going to beat up (one little boy) at daycare, 2 talking while I was trying to read, 3 pretending he had a gun after I told not to ever do it again and 4 hit (another little boy) in the forehead) I gave him a choice of missing recess and PE tomorrow or swats. He chose missing recess & PE but then didn't sit out even after classmates told him to. Then he lied to (principal) and said he didn't know he had to sit out.

Action taken by principal:

Held conference with student
Called parent (no answer)
Gave 2 swats

Sign and return"

First I talk to Dan.

1. He said that (first little boy) is the one who said he was going to beat Dan up, and that another student was the witness and was wrong on who said what. (For what it's worth, I've heard said child threaten a little girl while I was on a field trip with the class.)

2. Yes, he was talking while the teacher was reading to the class. He interrupted her to ask a question about the story, and got in trouble.

3. Didn't happen. Same witness as #1.

4. Says he brushed the top of (boy's) head...was not meaning to hit him, and didn't touch anything but his hair.

He said he thought that since he was missing PE the NEXT day, not today, that that's which recess he was supposed to miss too. And he said he had to sit in the office for the rest of the school day, which was not on the note.

Okay, but I'm not just going to take his word.

So I call the teacher.

She didn't SEE anything but #2, she just took the other children's word for it. She admitted that he could have been confused about which day to sit out.

Okay, I know my child can be a handful, but come on. Extreme for some not-so-reliable eyewitness testimony?

::sigh::

So then, I have to call the principal. You see, I have no real problem with him getting swats at school. HOWEVER, I must be notified! I wasn't home, and they never tried to call my husband's cell phone. They can't just spank him without talking to me. Attempting isn't good enough.

She got kinda snotty with me. I wasn't saying she couldn't do it, just that she couldn't do it without talking to me first. She said she didn't have time to pull his file every time he got in trouble, and his home number is the only one he knows. WHAT!?! You can hit a child but you "don't have time" to pull his file to see if you can?!?

I'm so upset over this, I didn't even take the kids to school for the rest of the week. I'm definitely going to start homeschooling them again over the summer, and they are NOT going back next year. But what to do about the rest of this year? It's less than 3 more weeks, but I don't want them there at all. But they want to go.

::sigh:: I don't need this right now.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
(((((Boon)))))

Dealing with kids' schools can be incredibly stressful. And the timing is awful!

I've had one in and out all year, and now he's somewhere else for the last month and a half of school. After one week, so far so good. But even if it goes ok till the end of the year, no idea yet what we're doing then.

And every time the phone rings during school hours, I tense -- even though this school hasn't had to call once.

Have you thought about the evaluation Cow recommended? Mine's in therapy, and although getting him in, and taking care of each step along the way has been major headaches, it does seem to be helping him.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
I've tried. Lord, how I've tried.

The teacher says he just needs to control himself better. Like he likes getting in trouble all the time.

The principal says lots of boys go through this, and he'll grow out of it.

The counsellor says he's normal, just impulsive.

They won't help me.

I can't afford private counselling.

I've contacted DHS. No help there without a diagnosis.

His doctor (assigned by HMO) won't refer him.

Truly, I think he's just not as mature as his peers. He's bright. He's funny. And they're right, he has trouble controlling his impulsiveness.

He also needs lots of one-on-one. He gets a lot at home, but it's just not possible for him to get that at school. It's not that he has trouble learning, but he needs attention a LOT. Which, come to think of it, is probably why he's in trouble so much.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
You know, I normally HATE home schooling. I think its a terrible idea. But in this situation... public school is worse.

Oh yeah, and sue the school. If the permission you gave them required your consent, they are so far out of line in terms of the law, that you can probably get the principal fired... and she SHOULD be fired.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Sheesh! And I thought the hoops we had to jump through at one of the local agencies (where we pay almost nothing, thanks to their sliding scale) were bad.

I hope homeschooling works well for you. (((((Boon)))))
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
have you thought about getting him tested for ADHD? It frequently goes along with conduct problems, and the problems with controlling impulses sounds like it. Your school counselor won't diagnose this (in most counties they are not allowed to) it would have to be privately diagnosed. While this is an over diagnosed disorder, there are people who do have it...and there are differences in brain chemicals for those people that medicine can help. While it is true that some behavior problems are typical in young children, serious behavior problems can be a sign of future trouble. ADHD in young children is a predictor of Conduct disorder in older children particularly if it is untreated. If you simply wait for the child to grow out of it, you might have serious problems later on. It is impossible to tell this kind of thing over the internet, you really should find some sort of doctor or therapist that knows about ADHD, and will medicate IF (and only if) it is needed.

As for the school paddling without permission, my guess is the principal was trying to brush you off so you did not realize that she could get into serious trouble for what she did. In most school districts paddling without parent consent is a serious offence. If your card says that you must give immediate consent before a paddling than the school could be sued for not following your wishes.

As for home schooling, I don’t think it would be your best option. Firstly, school is a good place for a child to learn proper social behaviors, and punishments for violating those norms. If he is having problems dealing with his peers, pulling him out could compound the problems later. Also, with a baby on the way your house is likely to not be the ideal place to educate a child.

There are a number of causes for problem behavior in children. Marital discord can lead to stress in the child, and is associated with problem behavior. While you said that the reasons for your previous discord are mostly solved, if there is residual stress it could have an impact. Of course having a new baby on the way also can lead to problem behavior, as a child can feel that they are being brushed aside (even if that is not the case). Unfortunately, this will not go away once the baby is born, as then people are likely to be paying lots of attention to the new baby, which could lead to jealousy. It is important to let your child know that they will always be important no matter how many siblings he has.

It is tempting to simply say “boys will be boys” or to think it is a phase, but it is important to keep up on a child’s behavior at a young age…because it is harder once they get older and are stuck in poor behavior patterns. It is possible that he will get over it once he gets used to the new child, but it is always best to stay on top of things. I would recommend trying to get your son to open up about the reasons for his behavior problems. He clearly does not want to, but it is something that must be done. Also remember that children do lie. It is hard for a parent to believe that their child would lie to them, but it is rather common…and actually expected at times.

[ May 02, 2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Lupus ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
I have to say, I don't see what you're so mad at the school for. If you don't want him spanked then don't sign the form next year. But aside from that, you can't expect teachers to overlook punishment in all four situations just because he made some excuses. Kids make excuses for everything. Maybe you can buy it if only one thing happens, but if there's a whole bunch of problems, something has to be done.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
You don't understand why I'm upset with the school?

They took the time to paddle him, but they couldn't take the time to look in his file to see if there was even a slip there that gave them permission? That's all it would have taken, all of our phone numbers are listed on that slip.

What if I'd revoked permission? How would she have known since she didn't take the time to check?

It is REQUIRED that they contact me, and actually speak to me prior to spanking my child. I really don't think this is too much to ask.

What would they have done if they'd decided to expel him? Told him to walk back home when he showed up the next day? They obviously couldn't be bothered to call me...

And if the principal can't take the time to pull one file out of a drawer in her own office and open it, did she even take the time to find out why she was paddling him in the first place? Did she talk to Dan and make sure he understood why he was in trouble?

I know kids lie. I'm well aware that he probably IS lying about at least one of the instances. BUT! Should he be punished for what COULD HAVE BEEN another child's mistaken observations?

I'd love to have him seen by a good therapist, psychaitrist, psychologist, whatever. I just can't afford to take him right now.

But more, I don't think I can afford to send him back to this school.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
Boon-
Don't feed the troll.
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
I did a search for ADHD in low income families, and this came up

http://add.about.com/cs/healthcare/a/healthcare.htm

I did not look into it in detail (other than a quick skim after a google search) but you might look into it.

Also, some regular doctors will know about ADHD if asked, but don't think about it otherwise. You might bring it up to your current doctor.

*shrugs* it might amount to nothing...and this might not even be a valid issue with your child but who knows, the info might help.

As for the lying thing...I am actually in agreement with you on the paddling issue. Regardless of the truthfulness of your child they should not have paddled your child without your consent...and they should not have used other children as their source of information (as those children are not likely to be any better at giving the truth as your child). I just thought I would mention it, as some parents can't believe that their child would not be truthful. I don't know you at all, so I just thought I would bring it up.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Boon,

The administration was lazy, but I think it would be a serious overreaction to change schools just because they only called your home phone and not your husband's cell phone, if that's what you're mad about. If nothing else, that's the sort of thing that's quickly rectified by complaining to them. They'll remember after that.

Actually, if it were me I'd just say no spanking anymore, since they couldn't get it right. (I always thought that was just standard for public schools these days anyway...)

But also, teachers have to punish kids based on imperfect evidence sometimes. Parents too. I used to get punished all the time because my brothers said I did something - usually it was true, but occassionally they lied. It's just the way it has to go. Would you want some other kid to get away with doing something harmful to your kid just because the teacher didn't see it firsthand?

quote:

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Don't feed the troll.

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quote:

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The situation is NOT correctable unless the principal gets fired.

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quote:

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Your post was trolling because I know you aren't stupid enough to really think that there's no problem here, so you must simply be seeking a reaction over a highly sensitive subject.

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That'd be like me saying I know you're not stupid enough to think I'm just being a troll here, so you must be just trolling yourself.

Trolling (and this is like the tenth time I've had to make this point on one thread or another, because everyone insists on calling other people trolls) is intentionally causing trouble on the forum for trouble's sake. In the history of this forum, there's only a handful of people who have actually done it. You (or anyone else) can't just call people trolls because you disagree with their point, or think it's dumb. Just because YOU believe there's a huge problem here that justified taking the kids out of school and firing the principal does not mean anyone who thinks anything to contrary is a troll. That's just an ad hominem attack to circumvent recognizing a viewpoint you don't like, and not the sort of thing a Hatracker should be doing. No?

I'm trying to give a different perspective here. If you disagree with it, then go ahead and give your reasons. If you disagree but think it's so obvious that you shouldn't need to give reasons, then don't post at all. But no name calling, because I can tell you right now that my intentions were NOT just to "provoke a reaction" or cause trouble for trouble's sake - and they won't ever be, to the best of my knowledge. That's not how I do things.
</RANT>

And sorry to have to put this Troll business in your thread, Boon - but people in general on this forum really need to stop throwing around insults like that, whether it's directed at me or w2w or John or someone else. I'm certainly not going to let them get away with it.

[ May 03, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Boon,
What state do you live in? In Massachusetts, parents can refer their own children for evaluation. It is expensive for the schools, so they will usually try to do anything they can to avoid it.
Do you have insurance?
Liz
PS Personal questions, and don;t answer if you are uncomfortable.
PPS Unsign the corporal punishment permission slip asap. The last thing he needs is to be hit whn he has no clue what he did.

Edit: Sorry if I repeated things! I responded after reading only page one. Uh-der.

[ May 03, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
I'm in Oklahoma.

The school has been notified, in person and via certified letter, that they no longer have permission to spank either of my children.

When I visited with the principal, she refused to admit that she did anything wrong, even after I had her pull his file. She even went so far as to tell me that if they couldn't spank him anymore, they would have no choice but to suspend him for further infractions. She even seemed outraged, repeating her credentials as though that makes her an expert on my kid and somehow better than me. Like I'm just a parent.

So, the kids are back in school until the 19th. I'm still going to homeschool them this summer, and I have serious doubts about sending them back next year.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Boon,
You need an educational advocate. They are lawyers who make life hell for schools. Many of them will do pro bono work.
I am so sorry. It makes me very angry.
Liz
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 


Phone rang at 12:30. DH answered the phone. It's the principal. Dan's in trouble again.

He kept asking another little boy for his candy at lunch. Boy refused several times so Dan tried to take it from him. Boy tried to run, Dan grabbed him, they both fell and both got hurt.

::sigh::

So DH asks her, "What are you..." but she interrupted him.

"I'd just as soon we end his school year NOW. You need to come get him."

DH told her it'd be a couple of hours before he could come get Dan, because he'd been out until the wee hours on a really bad fatality accident. She got snotty, asking him if "Dan is a priority to you or not?" I really, really hate that lady.

So I got dressed, waddled out to the car, and went to go get the boy. When I get there, Dan's sitting in the hall outside the principal's office. I go in and ask the secretary where the principal is. She says, "She said it wasn't necessary for you to talk to her. Dan's already checked out for today and tomorrow. Have a good summer!" and went back to her phone call.

I'm upset anyway, and hormonal, and on the verge of tears, so I just turned around and left with Dan.

They didn't even tell him he wouldn't be coming to school tomorrow. They just told him I was coming to get him, not why, not that he was in trouble, and not that he got kicked out. I'm not sure how this would affect him next school year, but I've decided he's not going back to this school anyway. Ever.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Can I ask what Oklahoma school district you are in? I've got a couple of friends who are educators in OK and I'd be interested in hearing their feedback on your district.

AJ
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
The principle refusing to see you is very passive aggressive. Since you're going to have to do all the disciplining for this incident, you deserve to hear the accusations and evidence directly. Besides, it's just common courtesy.

I hope you can find a better place for him next year - this one frankly sucks.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Okay, this is something I should probably not say, and I am sorry if I hurt your feelings Boon, but are you seriously telling me your hubby wouldn't go get your son, because he had been out until the early morning because of an accident?

That seems really, really inconsiderate of him. Especially with you being so pregnant, and emotionally overwhelmed with the school already....why couldn't he go pick up your son? And why would he want his son sitting out from class for one second longer than he had to be? He honestly would have let the child sit there for a few hours?

Maybe I'm not understanding your post correctly. I just can't imagine being called to say I had to pick up one of my kids and being willing to leave them there for a few hours. LIke the principal, I'd wonder about where the priorities were too.

Sorry if this upsets you, but my hubby works a 24 hour shift, many times working fires or accidents all night long (2 shifts ago had a fire that started at 11:00 pm and they didn't leave the scene until 6:30 am) and he still would have gone to get the kids if I needed him to. he's done it before, when I was pregnant with the twins and on bedrest he had to do all the major child-involved issues regardless of how much sleep he'd had.

I don't get it - please tell I'm misunderstanding.

That said, if you don't think the school is the right place for your son, then you'll have to make a decision about where to go from here. However, this infraction - the forcibly taking of something from another child, and causing that child to fall and be hurt, was definitely a send-home offense. And it sounds like the principal honored your request, and called you and didn't spank him.

I do agree with Dag that not wishing to see you or talk to you was sucky and cowardly.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
What I find TOTALLY ridiculous is that they won't let you come to the school and observe when Dan doesn't know you're watching. That would give you a better idea on how to handle the situation.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Heh... this principal sounds like she's doing a very poor job.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Belle - I interpreted the reluctance to stem from lack of sleep. I'm all in favor of people who decide not to drive when they're tired - it's more dangerous than drunk driving in many cases.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I'm sorry Dag, but if my kids need me or my husband, we go get them.

I can stay awake long enough to go get my children, I certainly wouldn't leave them sitting in the hallway outside the school office for several hours while I took a nap! That's not acceptable to me.

Besides, my husband's job depends on him being able to drive while tired, or do you think fire fighters just stay up all night waiting for that 2 AM call? Driving tired may well be dangerous, but it's a necessity in many cases, and my children would constitute a necessity to me.
 

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Posted by Polio (Member # 6479) on :
 
I can give some insider info on homeschooling if you want. I was homeschooled for 2 years, and my little bro is still homeschooled. In regards to socializing, we all went to homeschool functions about once a week, and the vast majority of homeschoolers were so mature and so... nice. I agree with the statement:

quote:

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As far as socialization goes, there have been numerous studies that indicate that early homeschooling actually IMPROVES long-term social skills, rather than hinder them.

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It's so true. I felt much more comfortable conversing with adults during and following my homeschooling, and it's a lot easier to get along with someone your own age when you push aside the social structures and standards set for you in high school (I was homeschooled in grades 9 and 10). As for the actual learning aspect of school, I feel that most (again, not all) homeschoolers are much more well-versed in current issues as well as school curriculum, as there is more one-on-one teaching/learning going on. However, homeschooling is not for everyone; I feel that my brother adapted to it much better than I did. I missed people and I did not have the motivation to do my work outside of an institution; therefore, I went back to school. Best of luck with whatever you decide; it's a pretty ugly situation.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Wow, I'm not a parent, but I just assumed there were a bunch of extenuating circumstances involving the accident that made it impossible or extremely difficult for him to get there.

And while Boon is 5? days overdue, she is still capable of driving for short distances the most part however uncomfortable and annoying it might be.

AJ
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"http://www.wrightslaw.com/speak/04.12.ok.htm

Boon, this is the website for Wrightslaw in Oklahoma. It has links for getting help. I forget if your son is diagnosed with ADHD or some other behavior disorder? Have you had him tested?

Anyway, you have the RIGHT to a full battery of tests. You can refer your own child for an evaluation. Don't let them tell you you can't.

Taking Dan out of this school with the scary principal might help for a while, but eventually he is going to be back in the fray, and he needs help controlling his behavior when you are not around.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Ouch, Boon. Having been dealt with similarly by the school my son was at (he is there no longer, and is thriving elsewhere), I absolutely empathize. But having to deal with this while being Extremely Pregnant ( ) must be especially trying.

(((((Boon)))))
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I'm sorry for coming off like that in the last post, this is a thread where Boon was looking for support, and I look like I'm attacking her and her husband.

I just wanted to let her know that her husband's response to the principal about not coming for a few hours might very well look like his priorities were messed up, it looked that way to me, so maybe she should cut the principal a little slack in that area. If I called a parent and told them they needed to come get their child and was told "I'm tired, I'll be there in a few hours" I would be curious as to what the parent held as his top priorities too. That's all.

Sorry for sounding like a b*tch.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, I am a parent, AJ, and I can't think of much worse than my child being humiliated, which when they're pulled out of class and sent to the principal, they are humiliated. I will not stand for them to be in that situation one second longer than necessary. My daughter was sent to the office once for being sick, and I couldn't get to her for over an hour because I was on the other side of town. She cried and cried because she said "I was just sitting there, and they wouldn't let me go back to class, and you wouldn't come."

I think everybody is being a little too harsh on a principal, who had a child taking something that didn't belong to him, then causing the other child to be hurt - and then when she contacts the parents she's told they can't come get him for hours because one of them didn't get a lot of sleep the night before? Cut the principal some slack here - she's got a child she's had problems with before, what is she going to do with him for hours? Leave him sitting in the hall? She doesn't want to do that, and can't send him back to class....I don't blame her at all for being put out when the husband says he can't come get him right now.

Attack me if you want to, but remember I know this situation well, my husband works accidents with fatalities at least three nights a week. Many times he'd love to stay at home and sleep, but his obligation to his family prevents that.

As a parent, you have to make sacrifices. sometimes that means sacrificing a little bit of sleep for the sake of your children.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
I wasn't going to post this, but the second response changed my mind: Driving While Drowsy.

This is a fairly personal issue for me, because I lost a friend in high school due to this, and I almost caused a horrible accident doing it myself once. It's not a question of losing a little sleep - it's a question of not killing people. I'd rather my child wait in the hall for a few hours than be another statistic.

Dagonee

[ May 18, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Poor Boon. I know this must be incredibly stressful for you. I really hope that things get better soon.

In support of Belle, I will say that the principal was probably not trying to be a jerk. Remember how many truly terrible parents she has probably dealt with. I have several friends who are schoolteachers and sometimes they get to the point where they wonder if there are any good parents left. Looks like the principal unfortunately made an assumption that Boon and her husband were in the category instead of attempting to be more understanding.

space opera
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Most people that have accidents from driving tired are people that are driving for long periods on highways, the "hypnotic" effect of the neverchanging roadway has been cited as a cause for this.

Driving to a school is not the same, not to mention that anybody who works accidents in the middle of the night should be well accustomed to getting up and driving while tired.

Sorry, Dag I'm not about to back down from my stance that it was incredibly inconsiderate of this person not to go and get his kid. I don't know the whole story, true, maybe there was some other reason besides pure tiredness that was why he didn't want to go. God I hope so! My husband would never have sent me out in a car alone when I was past my due date.

I will say that my husband has to drive sleepy all the time, he works as a firefighter and works a 24 hour shift and he's never caused an accident for one reason - he's used to it. You can train your body to respond differently to being waked in the middle of the night and after 10 years as a firefighter, he can waken instantly and function quite well.

If you want to stop people from driving tired, you're going to have to do away with emergency services in the middle of the night, I'm afraid. It comes with the territory.

"I'm sleepy, I was up late" is NOT an acceptable excuse to me for leaving your child at school when the principal calls to tell you he needs to come home.

You're going to be driving a very short distance, not over a long highway (most likely, most elementary schools are close to home and don't require interstate travel) you should be able to safely get your child and get him home.

And yes, it is more important to get that child than to leave him sitting for hours outside the office in a hallway, humiliated in front of his friends. I would do whatever it took to spare my child that. I was heartbroken at what my daughter went through when I took an hour to get to her, and she wasn't being punished, she was just sick.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Well, I suppose we have different priorities then.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Belle, I wasn't trying to attack you at all.

I just assumed that there was a plausible alternative in the story that we didn't know about. It is the way my brain works, quite possibly because I'm not a parent.

The two facts that jumped out at me were 1) it wasn't an life or death emergency, even if the kid was stuck sitting in the principals waiting room for a while and 2) Boon could (and did) go get, him miserable though she might be. She isn't on bedrest, and has only been ordered to stay within driving distance of the hospital. 3) I didn't think I had enough information to make a judgement call on Boon's husband one way or the other because there were obviously already some extenuating circumstances.

But not being a parent I admit I don't have the same sort of protective sense of urgency that many parents do when it comes to their children. The fact is she Did go get the kid. And it wasn't so much the principal's actions today as all the previous history that make anything she does now suspect. Would you give someone a clean slate who had in the past been negatively involved with actions towards your children Belle? I kind of doubt it.

AJ
 

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Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
 
Belle, you seem to be making a LOT of assumptions about this situation without really knowing anything about it.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
How is my assumption unwarranted? I am going by what she posted, that her husband wanted to wait several hours because he was working an accident the night before.

Now, if he was injured in that accident or there is some other reason he can't drive, then that's one thing. And I allowed that perhaps there may be more to the story, in fact I said I hoped there was.

I just don't know if you understand what it would be like for a kid to sit outside the principals office, with people walking by him all the time, wondering what he did, whispering about him...and him just sitting there, possbily no way to tell time, no idea when his parents are coming to get him, if at all, wondering what the principal said about him - that has got to be a terrible thing to go through.

I'm trying to think about what the child was experiencing. And as for the principal - I don't at all see that she's done much wrong in this situation. Except for not wanting to talk to Boon. Certainly he committed an infraction worthy of being suspended.

I wouldn't give her the benefit of the doubt, no. But knowing what type of person she had been in the past, I would have been there to get my child even faster after she called.

I'm not saying Boon did anything wrong - she went and got her kid. I question however, the willingness to leave him there for hours. How was that supposed to help his situation, exactly?

I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around a husband that would rather his nine month pregnant wife drive to the school than he would. Maybe because I'm married to a man who, despite what type of night he had at the station before, would not have let me do it but would have gone and handled it himself.

Maybe Wes is just different than most husbands.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Belle, the difference is that your assumption automatically made the husband "guilty" while my assumption automatically made the husband "innocent".

Which is the more charitable?

As for the humilliation of the principles office, I think it totally depends on the kid. This kid doesn't seem to have been terribly cowed in times past by any real or percieved humilliation. But each child is different. You know what your own child can take best.

AJ
 

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Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
 
Speaking as a teen who was considered to have "behavioral problems", all I can tell you is that he may be too smart for his grade level, so he has taken up new challenges (beating the system). I know that was my problem, and after about 6 years of being "a problem child" My 6th grade teacher started teaching me advance math and science. That led to the discovery that I'm just a tad bit too smart for my own good. They tried to put me into an ALPS program, but by that time I'd already started to "behave" (actually I just got better at not getting caught). I was in ALPS for a while, but I being the stubborn individual that I am, played dumb and got myself kicked out. I have no idea if any of this story helps you, but it may give you some insight into your sons thought process.

By the way, How are his grades?

Stryker
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I can only hope that when I grow up my family is as completely infallible as Belle assures me hers is.

Can you compare my family to yours next?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
The best to console Boon and help her in this is undoubtedly to insult her husband.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
The position of snarky person who's added nothing to the thread but snark has already been filled, Kat. Go find another thread, I was totally here first.


 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*pops popcorn*

sits back and watches snarkiness contest...


AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Bite me, Bobbley.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
You know kat, if Bobble's kinky enough he just might enjoy biting you...
 

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Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
 

 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
1. I wasn't trying to insult her husband, I even apologized for the tone of my posts, and got defensive only when everyone else attacked me - not Boon.

2. Boon has asked our opinion on the actions of this principal, I think the principal's actions in this particular case are not unwarranted (except not talking to her), so I wanted to point that out.

3. I didn't get the memo where we had become an online hand-holding group, it rather surprises me since when I've posted looking for support for issues, I certainly wasn't immune to people stating their opinions on my situation.

4. I'll be glad to compare my family to anyone's, I happen to think it's about as good as humanly possible, I think my husband and my kids are the greatest.

5. I had some personal experience, from being married to a firefighter, that I thought made it possible for me to offer my opinion objectively.

6. Since I don't think I'm having any positive affect on this thread anymore, I will bow out after this post, though I hope Boon at least takes my thoughts into consideration when judging the principal, because I think her reaction about priorities was perfectly justified. Boon may realize that too, after she has calmed down, who knows? Certainly I've jumped to conclusions before about people, and been forced to realize I was wrong later. I would hate for Boon to not be open to repairing this relationship later if she finds she needs to, because I've been there too - I had problems with the last principal of the elementary school that only ended when she retired. I wish I could have put aside some of the hostility and worked more closely with her, because I think parents should be on board with the administration and teachers as much as possible. It's the best thing for their children's education. I've even given Boon some advice about how to get the child tested, advice she didn't respond to so I don't even know if she took it or appreciated the effort I went to to get it for her.

7. Her son was WRONG. He stole from and hurt another kid. The principal was right to suspend him. The description Boon gave of the infraction leaves no doubt in my mind the kid was in the wrong- am I helping anyone if I pretend he wasn't wrong? All I'm saying is The principal had good reason to think that their son was not their priority when they said they wouldn't come get him for several hours. It may not be true, but she was justified in that opinion.

Turn it around and imagine the principal is our friend, not Boon.

"I'm having the worst day. Yet another parent who doesn't give a darn about their kids. I have this kid steal from and tackle this other kid, then when I call the parents, they say they can't come get him for several hours! So I asked the guy what his priotity was."

We would not think that was unreasonable. Especially if we knew that the principal had to deal with a lot of parents who just don't care. And that is the case in a lot of schools today.

Obviously we all think Boon and her hubby aren't those type parents, that they do indeed care about thier kid. The principal doesn't have that luxury however, and she has a kid here with a history of behavior problems and parents that say they won't come pick him up. I don't blame her in the least for he comment about priorities.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think the point is that saying "Your husband sucks; mine is better." is NEVER anything but rude.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
To: All Employees of Hatrack Inc.
Subject: Online Hand Holding Support Group
Date: May 18, 2004

It has come to my attention that there have been some questions on the subject of unconditional hand holding vs. constructive criticism. In the even that another employee distributes a message that has the clear intention of garnering support from fellow employees it is understood that the primary response should be one of encouragement and commiseration.

However, there is still room for intelligent, constructive criticisms. Should an employee feel they have a unique perspective to offer that may render the support-seeker additional aid they are encouraged to share. Note: this does not mean that haughtiness will be tolerated. Should an employee assume a role of snooty arrogance they may expect to be cut down several notches by one (or more) comments of equal snootiness, sarcasm, or so-called “snarkasm.� Claiming ignorance of this arrangement is not an excuse.

Kindly conduct yourselves accordingly,

Bob t. Lawyer

Addendum: Would Ms. Katharina kindly report to my office re: The Biting Incident.
 

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Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
 
Sorry I left for a few hours...sheesh!

I'm not offended by anything in this thread. So stop arguing.

1. My kid was totally in the wrong on this one. He knows what he did-he's the one who told me what happened. I'm not doubting that he should have been suspended...he's in BIG HUGE TROUBLE here, and believe me, he's not happy about it.

2. Unfortunately, the principal jumped to the same conclusion you did, Belle. When DH got home this morning, he stayed up long enough to get the kids up and on the school bus before taking a sleeping pill and going to bed.

3. There WAS an alternative to him sitting in the office (or the hallway) for a while...he could have gone over to the daycare.

4. The principal's attitude started as soon as DH picked up the phone, hence the whole interrupting him and telling him to come get Dan NOW...there was no courtesy or understanding in her voice at all.

5. Dan has an appointment with his pediatrician next week. I'll be discussing ADD/ADHD, possible allergies, and anything else I can think of with her then.

6. My last post wasn't so much a complaint but an update...the only real problem I had was the principal's general grouchy attitude. But I'm not really all that upset about that. More, I'm relieved that I won't have to talk to her anymore. I'm about as sick of her as I'm sure she is of us.

And on that note... I'm off to post in my baby thread.

[ May 18, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: Boon ]
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
BtL, have I mentioned recently how funny you are? That last post is suitable for framing!
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I'm a hero!
 

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