This is topic My personal beef on porn in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Here's what I have against the widespread images of "perfect" (read "airbrushed or otherwise altered") women that are nearly ubiquitous in society. This is not necessarily about porn alone and has nothing to do with the government or legislation.

I think viewing such images makes males in general more demanding in what is required to stimulate them. This leads to women feeling that they have to have perfect bodies or men will find them repulsive. While being healthy and fit is good, the effort required to meet the rising expectations of men is unhealthy, IMO. We have high incidences of eating disorders and women undergoing surgery or other drastic measures to alter their appearance.

I don't know enough about hard porn to know if it focuses on women who are "physically perfect" or if that is secondary to the acts or situations potrayed therein.

But it seems that a lot of the "soft" stuff or things going in that direction focus on "physically perfect" females. These images are found everywhere, magazines, movies, TV, videogames, etc. It makes me wonder if young men of our society are shocked at the lack of perfection in the actual women they become intimate with. But of course, the secondary effect of men's raised expectations are that more women are likely to meet their standards due to the overwhelming amount of time and money they dump into their appearance. But is that fair to women?

What do you of Hatrack say? Do males focusing on these images cause their demand for large chested, thin-hipped women to rise? Does it get to the point that average, unaltered, flesh-and-blood women just can't stimulate a sexual response from men? Do men require greater stimulation (like porn) to get a response because they are used to more stimulating material on a regular basis? Educate me.

Now, men don't have to deal with so many demands on physical appearance because every goon knows that a guy does not have to be physically attractive to have a decent, pretty woman attracted to him. Women may drool over Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom, but they can also totally go for a guy who is good and solid but not very attractive. How many movies have the ugly, geek guy gets the hot babe? How many movies have the ugly, geek girl gets the hunk? A few make a pale effort, but the girl usually has to "transform" to get him.

But perhaps men feel the same way about romance books and movies. Do chick-flicks inflate the expectations of women on men to be perfect in other ways? This is one of the reasons I can't stomach most chick-flicks. I find them... unsatisfyingly unrealistic. Do guys out there feel intimidated by the built-up image of what women expect of them based on all the romance stories out there?
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.

Also, I think it's good to try to look as good as you can; I spend a lot of time down at the gym trying to look like Brad Pitt and I don't see any real problem with it.

[ April 07, 2004, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Book ]
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
I'm not so sure it's the guys that are most affected. In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them. Kind of like how most men seem to say that makeup is not necessary, but women don't buy into this. I personally find your stereotype supermodel, with phony boobs, garich makeup, cheesy come-hither look, and vacant eyes, to be repugnant. But maybe that's just me. *shrug* What's porter say?
 

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Posted by T. Analog Kid (Member # 381) on :
 
Beverly, I have seen evidence of that which you speak... but I've seen more evidence that males will let themselves be manipulated by attractive women, as if we owe them something for being attractive.

It does, indeed, cut both ways.

Fortunately, though, it doesn't have to be that way and, while I am as taken by the swimsuit calendars and victoria's secret commercials as any guy, I also happen to find almost any "average" woman to be beautiful as well.
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 
I always thought women dress up to impress other women not men. Kinda of a competition thing. I have seen that in my life anyways.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
It's not hard to impress a man. Pretty much all you have to do is wear an okay dress and touch him. Anywhere. Doesn't matter.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
Lord I hope nobody dobies this . . .


 

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Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
 

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My personal beef on porn

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Thank God this was posted by a verifiable female...
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Icky, Porter is not a good representation of the average man (I think that is a good thing!) Pornography is not really a part of his life at all. I know he likes me just fine, and, uh, I will leave it at that. That is all that is important regarding my own situation.

But it is true that some of my reflections here are influenced by my own personal insecurities, and I am wondering just how much. That is why I ask for your input (and thank you for the comments already given!) Having a widespread representation of different perspectives helps me understand my own better.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
Sorry if I got too personal. Actually, I was assuming that porter was like me in that regard (i.e., not prone to an unrealistic demand of women), and thinking that, if true, this would back up my claim.

Of course, it could be, as you say, that we're both just strange. :-p
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 

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Icarus talked about porn and stuff:
I'm not so sure it's the guys that are most affected. In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them. Kind of like how most men seem to say that makeup is not necessary, but women don't buy into this. I personally find your stereotype supermodel, with phony boobs, garich makeup, cheesy come-hither look, and vacant eyes, to be repugnant. But maybe that's just me. *shrug* What's porter say?

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Beverly asked:
Do males focusing on these images cause their demand for large chested, thin-hipped women to rise? Does it get to the point that average, unaltered, flesh-and-blood women just can't stimulate a sexual response from men? Do men require greater stimulation (like porn) to get a response because they are used to more stimulating material on a regular basis?

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Book said:
Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.

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quote:

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Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.

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Now, men don't have to deal with so many demands on physical appearance because every goon knows that a guy does not have to be physically attractive to have a decent, pretty woman attracted to him.

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I'm not about to dispute this statement. I just want to put in my perspective. Most of my friends throughout my life have been guys. I was friends with a guy in college who wasn't ugly, but wasn't "hot" (IMO). He thought, for whatever reason that he "deserved" a beautiful woman. The girl he ended up marrying was very pretty, but not exactly what I thought he was talking about. Yay for him for not being as shallow as he made himself sound.

On the other hand, I was talking to another guy friend the other night, and while he doesn't exactly "fit the profile" he girls of our group find him perfectly attractive. He doesn't believe us because we are his friends (which I totally understand).

My point is that, it is more widely accepted that the media and society portray and unrealistic images for woman to strive toward, but I think it's important to acknowledge that men are affected as well. Maybe we don't hear so much about it because they have to be, well manly, and pretend to be more secure with themselves than they are. Guys, am I warm?

As a girl who also "doesn't fit the profile" I get depressed every time I see someone who does, whether in real life or in the media. However, I trust that, when the right guy comes along, physical attractiveness won't matter to either of us. A perfect example of "the ugly girl getting the hot guy" is the movie The Truth About Cats & Dogs. There is one potentially offensive scene, but the main theme is that it's what's on the inside that counts. I wish there were more movies like this.
 

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Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
 
Let's make a matter of degrees, then. The more addicted someone is to pornographic images, the less likely they're interacting with the real world in a meaningful way in the first place. Or put backwards, if a guy's virtual lusts makes it impossible for him to find reality attractive, he's the one suffering the most (and without my sympathy).

Aesthetically, I think it's very difficult to convey attractiveness in a picture.* I'm a decent photographer by now yet have a hell of a time trying to convey the beauty I see in people. The best I can do is remind myself of it, far from capture it.

I'm probably the wrong one to answer the remaining points. 99% of (visual) porn is boring, yet I've been active in A.S.S.* longer than this BBS...

*I assume that's what we're talking about -- video actors are undividedly ugly (or amateurs, whose lack of extensive makeup etc. removes them from this discussion.)
 

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Posted by Daedalus (Member # 1698) on :
 
I think I speak for most men when I say we're attracted to looks, but stay for the personality. I don't particularly care how well-shaped a woman is if she's an airhead or a brat -- we can have maybe a physical relationship if she's not terminally obnoxious, but I'd never commit to a long-term relationship with someone who annoys me.

Everyone has shortcomings. It's a fact of life, and I doubt many people expect their significant others to be without a few charming imperfections. But if a girl titillates me (no pun intended), she's the one I'm going home with. Toni's short for my giant size, but damn if I wouldn't sweep the girl off her feet given the chance. Whereas if I were stuck with a Lisa Kudrow clone -- pretty enough (kinda sorta not really, but then, I'm biased), but god after five minutes of hearing her ditzy whine I'd strangle her with her own hair -- I'd never consider going out with the woman, let alone having any sort of relationship.

If your husband's having trouble being attracted to you, hit the gym. Work out hard, work out long, and maintain a semblance of physical attractiveness -- I don't think it's unreasonable to be attracted only to women with, if not slim, at least proportional bodies. I wouldn't blame your troubles on the prettiness of other women for raising men's standards. As much as I hate Brad Pitt for giving men a standard to rise to, I'm certainly not going to complain that his existence negates my own sexiness.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
Well, take this for instance: Elisha Cuthbert, who is from the Girl Next Door, is gorgeous in that role. However, on Conan O'Brien just now she was decidedly less attractive-looking, and yet, to me, this "reality" of her appearance made her much more attractive to me personally, because now I see her as a real person; not as an idea. (But I still didn't like her hair that much.... )
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Interesting, Richard. I have wondered if my tendancy to focus on visual beauty has to do with the fact that I am an artist. As an artist, I long to capture beauty and life in a single image. I can appreciate that trying to do that as a photographer can be very challanging. It's amusing to put a movie on frame-by-frame advance and watch some of the terribly unflattering screen-shots that pass by.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Don't let Onan see this thread.
 

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Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
 
Celebrities on talk shows, in my experience, as more fake than in movies. Stage makeup is excessive by design -- it looks real on camera. The psycho concoctions (and fashions) they come up with for Jay Leno's sake, however, are indefensible. All but a few actresses fall into this trap. Their loss.

Back to porn: my point reaches beyond the abstract. I'm a musician, not an artist, so when I talk about capturing beauty I also mean simply getting my point & shoot to look anywhere near as cute as the person my organic eyes have observed in motion. Glossy magazine covers and so on have no reality-based reference point to remind me of, so I have little reaction one way or the other to most. Porn fares even worse, consisting (in my limited experience) mostly of horse-faced boobfests.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

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horse-faced boobfests.

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I am going to be laughing at that for a long time!
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
But this girl, apparently, didn't put on all the talk show makeup. Seriously, it looked like she had just walked in off the street.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
Let me say this, first and foremost, the unreasonable expectations of women’s appearance are not the fault of the porn industry. It simply isn’t ubiquitous enough. You seem to think that every guy goes home after work and watches 6 hours of porn. Even guys who *do* enjoy porn don't generally go after it every day. Compare that to the complete inundation of beautiful airbrushed images you see on TV, in magazines, on billboards, etc. It's these images that are causing the most serious problems. They start as soon as you’re old enough to open your eyes and keep going until you’re dead.

Secondly, I think you’re putting far too much of the blame on men. I’m not going to say that sex doesn’t sell, or that men don’t like beauty, but get real. Women bitch about what other women are wearing and compete with each other an awful lot. Or it’s completely an internal thing; you see these images all around you and feel that’s what you have to be, even though nobody “real” has told you. Think about your own life, how many times has your husband pressured you to be a flawless, thin, big-breasted blond? Your male friends? The TV? Movies? Who’s at the top of that list? Is the fact that these images are even there the fault of men? I don’t think so, things that are marketed to women and only to women still feature beautiful, flawless women.

I think I must be the only guy on the planet who feels pressure to actually look good. Which is odd because I put so much effort into giving off the impression that I don’t care. But, really, how many fat men are in magazines? How many acne-riddled movie stars are there? The problem isn’t with my friends, they don’t give a whit one way or another. I’ve had girlfriends and they certainly haven’t cared. But you can’t get away from all these images of your well-toned man with his perfect smile and blah blah blah, it breeds exactly the same kinds of self doubts. Yes, it is less of a problem for men than women, but there’s also a steady rise of men with eating disorders and the like. Your attitude that men are completely spared from societal pressures to look beautiful and that women don’t care about a man’s appearance where men are flesh-hounds isn’t helping anyone.

Now, I will give you this, studies have shown that men who watch large volumes of porn do, in fact, take more to be stimulated than men that don’t. But this isn’t because they’re expecting an unreachable perfection from their mates, it’s because their minds have started to demand all sorts of variety and the same person doing the same thing just won’t do it for them any more. It doesn’t matter if the most beautiful porn star is on the screen, if he’s seen her a million times it won’t work, he’s going to have to diversify. That’s the most damaging aspect of porn (according to what I’ve read, at any rate), not that men demand an unreachable standard of beauty, but that they require a different woman/situation every time to turn them on.
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 

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But, really, how many fat men are in magazines?

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I don't know. Have you seen these new fat-guy hot-wife shows? I am thinking of 'King of Queens' right now. But yeah, I do agreee with you overall.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
The followign is all in my opinion:

I think this worry is partly true, but is also quite a bit off, due to a general misconception of the way each gender experiences things like porn.

Men are supremely visual, and don't get the "cuddle hormones" to the extent that most women get them when experiencing sex. The average, well-adjusted male, when viewing porn does not generally make an emotional connection. Excess viewing of porn can certainly lead to unhealthy fixations, but I would think that the porn is merely a facilitator, and that the predisposition already exists. Also, given the likelihood that an excessive viewer of porn will likely not be having much actual female intimate contact for long lengths of time, the two situations can act as a feedback loop (and an unhealthy one at that).

Generally speaking though, I don't think most porn has the effect on men that some here are fearing. I'd bet (a nickle ) that the incidence of porn addicts to the general population, when adjusted for availability, synchs up pretty well with other addiction rates.

Honestly, I think it's women who mess with other women's perceptions more then men. I knew a good friend in college (yes this is just an anecdote) who was basically estranged from her family because they didn't want her to go to college (not her place, after all), and whose mother (a former local beauty queen) often criticized her looks. She had some major insecurities about it, and colored her worldview accordingly.

-Bok
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
I've NEVER heard any of my male friends say or even suggest that there is a "lack of perfection" in the women they are around. If anything, the reaction is almost universally the opposite among the men I know.

It's the women who I hear claiming that men think this.

[ April 07, 2004, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I agree that most men are more into personality, and here I do have a problem with porn because I don't think a lot of the "actresses" have much self-respect. I'm much more worried about a guy who gets turned on by a helpless, victimized woman that a guy who gets turned on by a physically flawless one. I don't know much about the plots of porn films, but it seems like the women in them must be pretty desperate. And I have had experience with my husband wanting things from me that were fed by the media. I'm sure I'm guilty of the same thing.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
Boy, if nothing else, this thread tells me that the world of gay porn and issues surrounding it is a whole 'nother universe from straight porn.

Just some basic differences (as I see them):

1. While there is probably some degree of exploitation involved in gay porn, large numbers of gay porn stars actually like their careers. There are lots of interviews with gay porn stars where they say as much. Most gay men I know don't find gay porn degrading to the men involved. YMMV.

2. Most of the gay couples I know don't have a problem with their partners' use of porn. Some couples share the experience. Most of the gay men I know who have expressed an opinion think that porn is just another part of a healthy sex life. When Chris and I moved in together, rather than chuck our old porn, we just traded. (OK, that's probably TMI).

3. While most gay porn portrays idealized male physiques, there are vast amounts of it that cater to all different types. There are porn magazines that extoll the beauty of young, old, smooth, hairy, chiseled, husky, and all manner of other physiques. There is almost no body type that doesn't have some porn magazine extolling its sexiness. So I don't think that porn images have hurt the self image of most gay men.

So, I'm not trying to steer the discussion away from straight porn issues. I just thought it was interesting to note a different perspective on the industry.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 

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In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them

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Yet women still spend a lot of time worrying about their attractiveness.

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For all the discussion on VCP [insert: and any other porn] , I would like to see a study that compares gender and sexual preference with who thinks it should be legal/illegal [insert: is morally acceptable or healthy] . I wonder if there would be a correlation. Any thoughts? It would also be interesting to look at religioius involvement, education level, income level, and anything else you can think of.

thoughts?

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
FG, maybe not porn, but there's plenty of non-porn pressure on women in readily available outlets. I think that AT WORST porn is just an extension of the much more pervasive situation.

-Bok
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Karl, it may be that some porn stars like their careers. I just doubt that the actor's craft has a lot to do with it and if the director can get someone younger for less money, why wouldn't he? I don't know, you intrepid porn viewers, are their "household names" in straight porn? Or is it pretty much 18 year old of the month?

Edit: Wow, I've never made that typo before

[ April 07, 2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Female porn careers tend to be short, unless you are one of the "superstars" who at least partially crossover to the mainstream (Of which there are always a few around). I'd say that 99% of female adult actresses are done by the age of 30.

In this regard, it's not unlike regular acting, or even moreso like modeling (or even, in some regards, ballet!). For many the physical and emotional stress affects them. To others, the workplace can be surprisingly professional, and the women don't see much of a problem. The thing is pooka, you are making a tacit assumption that since you couldn't imagine it, it isn't so. There are many adult actresses who do it because the money is good, or they just like the work. Many (particularly the stars) would be offended that they must have low self-esteem because they are filmed having sex for a living. It's a strange, strange world.

The porn industry is much more complex than those who know little about it assume (though admittedly, just about all their assumptions are to some extent true). But is this because most porn is actually soul destroying, or are social stigmas to blame? Would some of the perceived issues of relating to porn disappear if people stopped stigmatizing it? This is the age-old question, as far as social policy goes.

For the record: I don't know many of the "breakout stars", aside from I guess Jenna Jameson. But ask any regular Howard Stern listener, and they'd probably know a few more.

Heck, in the straight porn industry, men are rather an afterthought. Except for a vanishingly small group, men aren't promoted at all. One can make the argument that porn objectifies men more than women.

-Bok
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Actresses, Models, and ballet dancers are not my idea of robust personalities, but... okay. So men are vanishing from porn?

I agree porn objectifies men, but probably not in the same sense as you. It is produced merely to respond to demand, not unlike network television. I don't think comparisons to seemingly harmless institutions are going to raise my opinion of porn.
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 
OK, Alexa, I'll bite.

First, I think you would be able to find all kinds of people who think porn should not be made illegal. I don't have any idea how many of those would say that it is morally acceptable or healthy. I don't really have a comment on the morality of it except to say that I'd argue Playboy and Inches aren't much less moral than twinkies, or McDonalds, and are probably more so than, say, cigarrettes, or Smirnoff Ice.

I wouldn't be surprised either if a study found that a higher percentage of gay men had friendlier attitudes toward pornography than the general populace. The very act of accepting your own sexuality in a society that marginalizes you for it indicates a certain ability to question societal taboos. And accepting that one is gay also tends to make one less quick to judge the sexual behavior of others.

Additionally, porn falls into the category of things that more people indulge in privately than would be willing to support publicly, so there's going to be a certain margin of error that should be corrected in favor of (at least de-facto) support of pornography.

[edit: misspelled the "straight" porn mag name. Go figure!]

[ April 07, 2004, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: KarlEd ]
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
At least according to one porn star (who I'm familiar with because she's a geek, not because she's a porn star), there are very much careers of it, and people are not easily replaced, at least experienced people.

If you want to visit her site (which is actually quite fascinating, though it has some scattered nudity, mainly upper body; its more of a combination personal journal/geek-out (she writes and maintains the site herself)) Just google for Asia Carrera and click on the very first search result.

She's quite famous in the geek community, and has appeared on and regularly been mentioned on tech tv. She's not updating her website right now, so some of the information is out of date, because she's recently married and retired from porn.

However, interested parties might pay particular note to her academic background. You may be surprised.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Alexa --

I think some of the answers to your questions can be seen even on this thread..... those who are more conservative, and usually deeply religious, are voicing more opinions of the harm of porn, while those who are more secular see less harm, and are arguing more the legalities, and not the moral, part of the dilemma.

pooka -- I probably shouldn't admit this on a public board, since I'm a conservative Christian, but once long ago I went with a group of office gals to see the Chippendale dancers (is that the right name?) Anyway, there were basically male strippers at a nightclub. The event was in honor of someone's birthday, I think.

Anyway, even though these guys were fine specimens of male flesh, I didn't find much attractive about them -- they moved like robots, there was no emotion in their eyes at all. I felt terrible just being there because I felt like I was 'making' them perform these sexual gyrations for the pleasure of the audience, yet they were getting no pleasure out of it at all. They weren't even the slightest aroused. I felt they were being objectified. I wondered how this affected their private sex lives.

(I will mention -- I was the only one there not drinking alcohol, so perhaps that is why I was not moved by this performance. The others girls were drinking quite heavily and really getting into it)

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
Karl, I would suspect that what you point out (particularly 2 and 3) is due to the fact that homosexuals who are out of the closet must, by definition, have a more open and tolerant (substitute your own adjectives if you don't think this is a good thing) view of sex than average people. Once you have come to grips with what makes you different, and also to some extent rejected some aspect of the traditional view of what makes sex right, then you are less likely, I would think, to be as judgmental. So if your lover is into porn, you are more likely to work that into your relationship than to judge him or shun him for it. Which, to cross-pollinate this thread with Pat's, brings up the question of to what degree the damaging aspects of casual porn use are actually brought on by guilt over it, rather than anything intrinsic in the porn itself.
 

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Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
 
You need to meet some more ballet dancers, pooka.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
Great. Just post exactly what I'm saying while I'm typing it, and make me look like an idiot, why don't you?

Jerk.


 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

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they moved like robots, there was no emotion in their eyes at all. I felt terrible just being there because I felt like I was 'making' them perform these sexual gyrations for the pleasure of the audience, yet they were getting no pleasure out of it at all.

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That might partially be because the majority of the Chippendale Dancers were gay. So have been at least two of Playgirl's Men of the Year. (Sorry if this disillusions anyone. )
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
You know, media does a fairly good job of portraying only physically perfect MEN, as well, unless the physically imperfect man represents the classic "dunderhead" that can't get a woman. How many of you women think that this has made you less accepting of your husbands, to the point where you find them less attractive and can't be stimulated by them?

I didn't think so.

Granted, men and women are different...I just think there's no denying that an "imperfect" lover is better than a "perfect" figment of your imagination.

I basically only reiterated what different people have already said. Oh well.

I DO have a huge problem with the "victim" and "perp" roles that tend to be acted out in porn. Those scare me more than anything.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
pooka, if you admit that other tolerated careers aren't healthy, but aren't trying to get them toned down, then you are apparently using your religious bias in targeting porn actors. Which is fine, but that gets into a whole separate argument.

Men in porn are often uncredited, or at least are always second billing to the female "lead". The men are not much more than props used to produce the desired effects of pleasure in the female actress. That is certainly objectification from nearly any standpoint. The irony of course is that this is all used in turn to excite men (and a few women).

FG: Your response to the Chippendales is almost exactly the same as my response to strip clubs (my first one was an 18+ club, so no alcohol). I admit a certain titillation (being an 18-year-old virgin and all that), but man, those places depress me.

-Bok
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
Honestly, I think the sterotype is imposed more by women then by men.

I was actually talking about this with my boyfriend the other night, and I explained it to him this way:

If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing. Because for the girl, she perceives her possibilities as being limited not by the attractiveness of the available men, but by the attractiveness of the other women in the room. If you perceive yourself to be the cutest one in the room, you can go after any of the guys. If you're not, you have to limit your options accordingly.

I'm not sure why this is, really. I'm sure there's some girls who have self-confidence issues when it comes to talking with men, but there's also a general sentiment that most men will be flattered to be the object of any girl's attentions, no matter what she looks like -- until they become annoyed with her personality. (There are, of course, notable exceptions to this rule, for example the "idiot frat boys" described above...there's always *someone* who has an ego too big for them.)

Then again, this could just be my personal slant on things. I've always felt more comfortable talking/conversing/making friends with men than I have with other women. So when I personally walk into a room, it's the other women I feel intimidated by, not the men.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 

quote:

---

If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing.

---

I never did this, but only because it never occured to me. My brain is far too sexy to be put off by those girls who have nothing but an aquiline nose.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I missed this thread yesterday. More than one person has asked for my input, so I suppose I should respond.

My personal belief is that if a guy *wants* to, he can be attracted to pretty much anyone. He may have to put some effort into it, but he can if he wants to. Why do I say this? Because this has been my personal experience.

Of course, this has a lot to do with why I believe that homosexuality is a choice. Many men have said that they have been attracted to men as long as they can remember. Fine. I can live with that. Some also say they have tried to be attracted to women. I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.

Maybe it's because I am different. I don't *feel* different, but my wife is constantly telling me that I have a pretty non-standard array of strengths/weaknesses, and that it's not fair to judge others according to my nature.

But in the end, don't we always assume that others are like us? Don't we always assume that others have similar motivations/strengths/weaknesses as us?

quote:

---

We do not see the world as it is -- we se it as we are.

---

This is not an attack on anybody or any group. I'm just sharing some of the reasons why I think as I do. I hope that I haven't shared more than I should.

I know that I will probably get a log of flack for this opinion. Feel free to disagree -- I don't think I've ever talked to someone about this that agreed with me. But that's still how I think things are.

While not analagous, it reminds me of a lot of the flack that Bob Dole got from the anti-tobacco league. Dole did not have much sympathy for smokers. He had been a smoker himself, and one day decided that he should quit. And he did. His attitude was that if you don't want to smoke, you should just stop.

That was a strength of Dole's. Either he had greater willpower, or his body was less addicted to tobacco, or some combination of the two. But he was not able to bring himself to *really* believe that quitting smoking is that big a deal for people.

Sooooo. Back to the porn issue. I believe that a guy can be attracted to whomever he wants to. I have known guys (usually not too attractive guys) that will only consider girls that are pretty much model or near-model level. How pathetic. I think that a lot of reason for that is self-esteem problems. They don't have the huevos to date a "fat chick" and deal with the real or imagined scorn from their peers. They think that having a hot girl on their side will make them feel like a man. Of course, it means that they have *no* girl on their side.

Saying that you will only date a certain physical type of girl is saying "I don't want to be happy unless I am happy with someone that looks like ***"

Does soft porn affect this? I think it does. As T. Analgo Kid mentioned, swimsuit calanders, victoria's secret ads really catch the attention of a guy. They are designed to arouse, and they work. I think that they condition a guy to get aroused by that type of visual stimulus. The more of it the guy is exposed to, the less likely it will be that he will be sexually attracted to someone who falls short of those standards. What I am talking about is things that are designed to arouse, which many commercials for many things are. I don't think that just becase an actress is thin and attractive and on-screen causes these things.

But again, what do I have to go off of besides my own nature?

BtL -- the porn that I am talking about, and that I think beverly is talking about, does not come from the porn industry. Most people wouldn't even call it porn, or might call it soft porn. And it is different from what is marketed to women. Yes, the stuff marketed to women features flawless-looking females, but it is not titilating. The stuff marketed to guys, like beer or Victoria's Secret (yes, I believe that it is mostly marketed to guys) is designed to arouse.

Crap, but it's difficult to write about such sensitive things. Please be gentle.

[ April 07, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 

quote:

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Some also say they have tried to be attracted to women. I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.

---

quote:

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You need to meet some more ballet dancers, pooka.

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quote:

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Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.

---

That's not always true. There are many men who are addicted that you would never suspect; they have families and are dedicated to them, and are otherwise great people and not "losers". There is no "typical" porn addict, that you can tell they are by the type of person it is.
 

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Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
 
I guess I was talking about the college scenario. I can't imagine sticking with porn after marriage. That's what your wife's for, right?
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Yes. There is no "typical" porn adict -- just the stereotypical one.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
I think it's important to differentiate between a porn addict and one who uses porn, with regard to that statement.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
A lot of people here have commented that the pressure to look good comes from other women. I would like to propose that I am mostly immune to those sorts of signals. I have never been "into" fashion, clothes, etc.

All my life, when I chose my clothing, it was with the intention of looking good to guys. I couldn't care a flip what other girls think. The outfits that girls pronounced were "sooooo cute"! I had no interest in. Like "jumpers". I thought, jumpers are not flattering to my figure. I don't care what girls think, I care what guys think. And I dressed with that in mind.

When girls (or guys) get together and start talking about clothes, how much fat is on their bodies, their complexion, hair, my brain just turns off. I usually leave the conversation, because it has totally lost my interest.

That is just to give you some insight into what I am talking about here. It is NOT about glamor, it is about what men find sexy.

I pretty much agree with what my husband said. Well put, Porter.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Of course, it's no big surprise that your beliefs about how males react to porn/soft porn match my beliefs. There are a lot of people here that disagree. If they are not deluding themselves, then I am wrong, at least generally.

But then, it's obvious that I don't think I'm wrong.

Of course, who *does* think that they are wrong?

[ April 07, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
I think I could force myself to be attracted to a woman if I had to. Of course, it's easier from the female point of view. Women are just more beautiful.

I saw that comment, by the way, Porter.

[ April 07, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I'm glad you took it as intended. Looking at it, I thought it just wasn't funny enough to risk the possible offence.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Oddly enough, if I've already decided that I like someone, they almost CAN'T offend me. But if I've decided I DON'T like someone, then they can't avoid it.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Thank you for the implied (or at least inferred) compliment.
 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
See, that's interesting, because I really don't think I could possibly feel physical attraction for a guy. I have friends whom I love "like brothers," but that's it. Our attitudes on this question probably colors our belief on the choice issue. *shrug*

[ April 07, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: lcarus ]
 

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Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
 

quote:

---

I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.

---

Well, my gut reaction to that was to be insulted by your presumption, but I suppose I can understand your lack of empathy. And maybe given the right circumstances I could bring myself to become sufficiently excited with a woman to have sex, but: 1. It wouldn't be very satisfying to either of us, I'm sure. 2. What woman wants a man who has to psych himself up or play mental bait-and-switch games just to pretent she's his real object of desire? 3. No woman I've met can give me what I find desirable in men.

Even though I can understand it, your statement still bothers me. I feel a similar way about people who claim to have "felt the Spirit" or gotten a "Witness from God". I don't think they are lying, but I think that on some level they are deluding themselves. I think while the feelings might be real, they are generated from within and have nothing to do with an outside force. But I would feel really rude pressing the issue with someone. And even if I could get them to admit that there is the tiniest possibility I'm right, what have I gained, really?

Likewise, what is gained by getting a homosexual to admit that, yes, on some level deep deep down there is the remote possibility that he could find himself aroused by a woman?
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
mph, I am discounting nothing. Just seeing if it's worth continuing to argue the point.

But yeah, I'm just another liberal whacko, secretly brooding on my plans for World Communism, trying to marginalize good Christians (persecuted as they are from every side). Sheesh.
---

pooka, what I am saying is that if there are these other, more mainstream, but analogous, careers for women, say, that while you find are dysfunctional, you feel no need to create some public policy to fix/combat, then your objection comes from the fact that porn is about sex in particular. You imply that you want some curbing of it, either by more societal pressure, or by governmental intervention (which doesn't mean abolishment). From where does this particular sentiment arise? In your case, I'd guess religion. This doesn't mean you are wrong, but by identifying it as such, if you choose to do so, means that _I_ can't argue it with you, because the assumptions of each of us are too different, and too fundamental, to bridge. Lord knows I would never want to attack your religious beliefs. You may very well be correct. I won't try to dissuade you otherwise, but neither will I try to argue from a more secular POV, since your religion's doctrines and the inward judgment of the influence of the holy spirit (not necessarily in this order) will always trump secular concerns. I will let you act/believe as you feel you must, and I will act in the way of my choosing.

If we're going to argue from a societal standpoint, where the harms must be physical/psychological (as opposed to spritual), then the fact that porn is about sex cannot be a priori considered harmful. It requires data, not just to show a correlation, but to show a likely causation. I'm sensing from your arguments that you feel a more fundamental concern. I may be wrong.
---

mph, I am in the same boat as you are as far as sexual preference it seems (I am not actively attracted to men like I am to women, but I have had many male fantasies, and am not icked out by the male form), but why do you feel compelled to assume that sexuality is just one way? Why isn't a sort of flux, a range along which we all have varying proclivities. I know many people who just can't see men in a sexually attractive way. In fact there was a 10+ page thread on an online video game board recently asking why guys play female characters... The #1 response? They'd rather look at a female butt for hours on end than a male butt. They are fundamentally disgusted at the male form (even just the butt). Maybe some are compensating for something, but EVERY one of them? Consider me skeptical.

Changing gears, it's sort of ironic to say that you feel people can change something as fundamental as their sexual preference, but then despair at (and assume universally, it appears) the fact that you can only see things from your point of view. I'll agree that you can never separate yourself completely from yourself, but (at least for me, and I won't fall into the trap that it is even possible for you, because it may not be possible for you), I am quite capable of viewing something from another person's POV, and understand it as far as it goes, and see why someone acted in a way completely different from the way I expected.

However, for me to use my fairly successful experiences with empathy to presume ANYONE can do it, even only to the extent I can, is foolish, I think. To say that "Gee, mph, I can do it, and have been doing it since I was a kid, so can you if you try hard enough" is insulting to you, and ignores the fact that it may never be true. I'll never throw a 90MPH fastball, nor will I ever have that innate charisma some people have.

-Bok
 

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Posted by captainmoriar (Member # 6416) on :
 
Most of what I would have said has already been said. I'll just toss in the fact that I always hear women/girls say stuff like "OMG she has the same shirt as me. I am so embarassed." If guys(including myself) actually even notice another guy wearing the same shirt we don't care what-so-ever. To me that gives the impression that it is women who push other women to spend so much on clothes, surgery, etc.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Bokonon -- one of my greatest weaknesses as a human being is my inability to empathize. I have to consciously give people the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't happen on its own. It has always been a barrier between myself and others.
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
I just sorta... want to comment on this statement

"Actresses, Models, and ballet dancers are not my idea of robust personalities, but... okay."

The strongest, most powerful female personality of the women my brother and I have dated, was definetely the ballet dancer in the group.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
mph, I empathize with that.

*rimshot*



Even the Great Empath known as Bokonon has had to conciously make an effort to give certain people the benefit of the doubt (in fact this tends to be more of a problem with me the closer I am to someone!!). People have varying abilities. We aren't all self-sufficent (no matter what my libertarian friend in DC says...). Of course, if they are, they probably don't need to befriend me, so I'd never know, what with that self-sufficiency personality trait and all.

-Bok
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
KarlEd -- I have started several posts in response to yours, and posted none of them. Let me just say that I have gained a respect for you from your posts. I knew that my feelings/thoughts might probably offend you, and that gave me sorrow, but I hoped that I could share without offending too bad.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
It seems most people disagree that the ubiquitous images of "perfect women" have not raised men's expectations or changed what is required to excite them. I would like to believe that, but it sounds like more like a nice, comforting fairytale.

First of all, how can I know that my "average" and your "average" are the same? Has the standard for "average" raised because of rising male expectation and the number of women trying to meet them?

Now the following sentiments are hypothetical because I am happily married and only one man's opinion matters to me, and things are fine between us. Also, keep in mind, this isn't *really* about porn, but anything that promotes sexually alluring images of women. James Bond movies fit into this category just fine, and I don't consider those pornographic.

I am not denying that there is increasing pressure for guys to look good, but I think the women simply don't need men to look as good as men need women to look. I think the rising trend of guys needing to look good is a relatively new thing. And, IMO, it at least in part, stems from the efforts of society to make both sexes the same.

It used to be that it was expected for men to be permiscuous and put high emphasis on women's looks. Today's society seems to encourage women to be just as permiscuous and shallow even if it is not biologically in their nature to be so. I guess I hold to the old school idea that men and women are essentially different and their sex drives work differently. I just don't think that women by nature have that same desire to "mate with anything on two legs" that men seem to lean towards. (Sorry, gross exaggeration.)

I feel like the image being promoted today is that women should want to sleep around and focus on the physical appearance of guys. It's poetic justice, right? That's what we women have been dealt from men since the beginning, right? It's only fair to turn it back around the other way. I believe the pressure on guys to be "hot" is a side-effect of that.

Ok, Kasie:

quote:

---

If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing. Because for the girl, she perceives her possibilities as being limited not by the attractiveness of the available men, but by the attractiveness of the other women in the room. If you perceive yourself to be the cutest one in the room, you can go after any of the guys. If you're not, you have to limit your options accordingly.

---

quote:

---

How many of you women think that this has made you less accepting of your husbands, to the point where you find them less attractive and can't be stimulated by them?

---

This doesn't effect me because I believe very strongly that looks are are not nearly so much a part of women being attracted to men as it is for men being attracted to women. At least in my case, I am capable of being attracted to a fairly "unattractive" man if the right other ingredients are there. I can say this with all confidence because it has happened, more than once. (No, I am NOT talking about Porter Porter is HOT.)

For men, attractiveness certainly isn't the only important thing or even the most important thing, but the majority feel it must be there. Fortunately, not ALL men feel this way. I'm sure some of you fine men here at Hatrack are among them.

Blah, sorry if some of my comments come across bitterly, this is a fairly emotional and personal issue for me. Again, I do appreciate your comments and differing perspectives.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
The above post is proof that my wife is not attracted to someone because of looks.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
*wants to see Hot Porter*

Bev: I agree that looks are more important to a man...but to a point. I think men can be attracted to other aspects of a woman, besides her looks. Aren't there still some men left out there that are attracted to their wives even after they've gained thirty pounds, have stretch marks from breasts to butt, and have gray hair? I hope so, or marriage seems kinda pointless.

It seems kind of wrong to say that a man will have sex with anything that moves, but to then say that a man won't be attracted to a woman who isn't perfect. Those two stereotypes cancel each other out. Not that you're saying this, Bev, but it seems to be the two conclusions that come up most in reference to men and sex.

Maybe I'm rambling...I'm not very sure how I feel about all of this. I agree that having sexy images of women everywhere affects how men see their wives to some degree...I just think that most men KNOW that real women aren't like that, and can be happy with a woman who is "imperfect".
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
No you don't.

Besides, if he ever existed, it was several years ago.

[ April 07, 2004, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
I just have to say this is a great thread!
I'll try and contribute more when I have time. Time to run some errands. *hugs*


[ April 07, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Ooo, PSI, good point about the two conflicting ideas. Perhaps I should change that to "mate with anything *hot* on two legs."

In my post, I put forth the idea that while a man might be willing to have sex with an "average" chick, he would prefer a "hot" chick. I don't want "willing", I want passion!! I don't want it to be about "just" sex, I want it to be about wanting me! Is that selfish?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oh, and PSI, believe me, you *will* get a chance to see my handsome hubby soon. I'm having some pictures posted on foobonic!
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
No, and my husband and I agree with you. That's why we don't have cable, don't watch TV, and don't go to mall, or shopping at any place that has somewhat explicit nudity in the windows. My husband gives me his car mags to let me tear out the pictures of scantily-clad women before he reads them. That was his choice by the way...I didn't hen-peck him into that. We check on each other at random times to make sure our internet usage is clean.

These were things we decided to do TOGETHER...it isn't all about me policing him. He polices me too, because we feel like both partners can be royally screwed up by things that they see on a regular basis. We keep each other accountable.

This seems extreme to most people, but we feel it's necessary, and don't think that any lengths are too long to go to in order to keep our marriage as good as it can be. We've both seen first-hand how much pain can be caused by porn in the family, and want to avoid that as much as possible.

So now you know how I REALLY feel about it, all other discussion aside.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Thanks for sharing, PSI.

*tries to imagine giving up TV*
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Well, we watch SOME tv....mainly British comedies on PBS, and Scrubs.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
PSI, I really respect your husband for being so motivated and caring about your relationship enough to do that.

I am also very grateful that my husband agrees with me on these subjects, because I would feel like such a loser if I was trying to convince my husband to avoid oogling and he just totally didn't understand why it should bother me.

Now, part of his discipline is faith motivated. If he were not a man of faith, I think he porn might be a part of his life. I can't speak for him on that though. But this is one of the ways that I feel like my faith protects and blesses me rather than restricting me. My faith encouraged me to marry a man who loves God as much (if not more than) he loves me. I have done that, and it is one of the best decisions I have ever made.

Oh, and was it Book who said he couldn't imagine continuing to view porn when married? There are probably a lot of bachelors that feel so. After all, marriage means steady sex, right? Well, for some men, marriage means getting tired of sex with the same woman, at least at some of the time. Such men might have strong desires to return to the porn that they found so stimulating before when they get tired of "grilled cheese for lunch everyday".
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 

quote:

---

My faith encouraged me to marry a man who loves God as much (if not more than) he loves me.

---

Sing it, sister.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
You know people bring up that "grilled cheese for lunch everyday" argument with me when I tell them I plan on marrying forever, and not "experiment to make sure it works" first. I always remind them that they're talking to a person who willing eats the same thing for dinner every night, whose gone to a Chinese restraunt every week for 9 years and has ordered a grand total of two different things there. Grilled cheese sounds fabulous.

<--*Likes random inserts in conversations*

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
You know, Ruth and I have some odd pet names, but none of them compares to "grilled cheese."
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Yo, me too, Hobbes! Beef and Broccoli, or Orange Chicken and egg drop soup. Constantly.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
My favorite restaurant is a Spanshi tapas place tucked away in a neighborhood in downtown, and in two years, I don't think I've had the same thing twice.

Hmm...
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I'm too cheap to develop a favorite restaurant.
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
beverly,

My point was more that the standards are imposed by women on themselves and on other women. Which guy you go home with depends more on her actions than on the mens' decisions -- The best looking man in the room might be perfectly willing to go home with you -- and he very well might -- *if* the hottest girl doesn't get to him first or try to steal him away from you. You're both real, after all, you're not models or porn stars, and heck, maybe neither of you is all *that* attractive.

I don't know, I'm getting tangled up in my words here. My only point, though, was that I think it's *women's* standards of beauty that are being affected by the inundation of images, not men's. At least not to the same degree, anyway.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Ah. For a minute I thought that PSI was saying that "Beef and Broccoli," "Orange Chicken" and "egg drop soup" were pet names she and her husband have for each other.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*grin* It's for dates. On top of yummy food, it's cozy, somewhere between casual and formal so you can wear anything, there's live music, and it's family-run by people with charming accents and 11-year-olds in velvet. I love it.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Oh my gosh. No way.

Nope, our nicknames are the ones Hobbes used for Suzy. Shnooky-Ookems and the like.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

---

My point was more that the standards are imposed by women on themselves and on other women. Which guy you go home with depends more on her actions than on the mens' decisions -- The best looking man in the room might be perfectly willing to go home with you -- and he very well might -- *if* the hottest girl doesn't get to him first or try to steal him away from you. You're both real, after all, you're not models or porn stars, and heck, maybe neither of you is all *that* attractive.

---

My point is, I don't want to go home with a guy who is willing but would rather have gone home with "the hot chick". I want the guy to want to be with me the most. How is that affected by women's expectations?
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 
One interesting thing that this discussion about hotness made me think about:

My girlfriend doesn't particularly think I'm hot. Which is true. I'm certainly not hot. I mean, I might be kinda cute sometimes, but I'm definitely not hot. I've heard her point out other guys who are hot, and it makes me feel a little disappointed with how I look. But on the other hand, she told me one time that she wouldn't want me to be hot because it would only cause her to focus on her own imperfections more.

*shrugs*
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I know I wouldn't want to be with a really hot guy, meaning the sort that all girls swoon for. It would do nothing for me and it would just increase the likelihood of him being flirted with or having a "big head" about his looks.

Nato, do you find your girlfriend hot?
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
I am often quite turned off by the classically "hot" guy, if only because they seem kinda dumb.

Maybe that's not fair.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
You know, most of the actors that gals drool over, I don't. Please don't pelt me with pebbles, but I have never thought Brad Pitt was a big deal. I'm more of a Harrison Ford or Bruce Willis kinda gal. I find them both charming. Maybe I like smirks?
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Yeah, I don't dig Brad Pitt at all.

I kinda think that kid on Scrubs is cute...of course it's the guy with the big nose and huge hair.
 

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Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
 

quote:

---

Nato, do you find your girlfriend hot?

---

I like the way she looks. She's not "hot" I guess, but I don't really go for the "hot" look anyways. "Hot" is way too thin usually. In any case, I think she looks better than I do.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
My girlfriend is more beautiful than any angel in heaven, and you can tell her I said so.

I think a relation needs at least some element of physical attraction, but qualities like "hotness", or thinking they're the most physically attractive person ever isn't necessary either. Basically, some physical components have to be there, ideally you'll be looking at this person for the rest of your life, it be best not to be repullesed by them.

Or you could get lucky like me and find the most physically gorgeous speciman of the opposite gender on the earth... if you're a girl that is, my opposite gender's best is taken.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

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I think the women simply don't need men to look as good as men need women to look

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At least in my case, I am capable of being attracted to a fairly "unattractive" man if the right other ingredients are there

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My point is, I don't want to go home with a guy who is willing but would rather have gone home with "the hot chick". I want the guy to want to be with me the most. How is that affected by women's expectations?

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The funny thing is that the girls in these examples are quite attractive, just not thin.

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There's also that infamous problem where many women won't date men shorter than they are.

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This one I have to admit is true. I'm 5'8", and 5'7" is the absolute shortest I'll date. It isn't just a matter of carrying around a ruler - I've just not attracted to anyone shorter. There was a gorgeous, sweet, hot guy on the track team in high school, smart, the whole deal, and my 5'2" best friend melted when he walked by in his 5'5" glory. He did absolutely nothing for me.

I can concieve of universwe where I may make an exception, but it hasn't happened yet. I doubt it will.

[ April 08, 2004, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Hooray for Kat!

I love it when people tell the ugly truth.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

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I guess I was talking about the college scenario. I can't imagine sticking with porn after marriage. That's what your wife's for, right?

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Oh, wow. I love porn, even moreso now that I'm married.

We courted each other by writing erotic stories for one another. If I want to get lucky, I doodle an explicit drawing on his napkin at the pizza parlor.

Mind you, I have found few things on film that I find enjoyable, but I love stories. One of the ways I know he loves me is that he still keeps an eye out for good anthologies -- and sometimes they appear at my bedside.

So yeah, I'd say that pornography is what a wife is for, albeit from a somewhat different angle. I'd say that sharing stories/films/pictures is a great, safe way to explore that vast expanse of sexuality one has with a mate, if one is comfortable doing so. Knowing what turns on your partner is intriguing, but knowing why is incredibly intimate, and -- for me -- irresistible.

Of course, this is merely my perspective, YMMV, and perhaps TMI. But man, can I just say: Berg on A.S.S* ?
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 

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For those who have met me, thinner then myself is about a toothpick.

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My husband may be thinner than me. But that's a good thing. If I were thinner than him, I would have NOTHING to shake.

I agree with Kat about the shortness factor, to a degree. A guy that's shorter that 6'1" will never catch my eye at first glance, but I can find one attractive if I get to know them better. It's not that I think no short guys are good-looking...in fact, my first serious crush was on a guy that was shorter than me. Of course, that was seventh grade, and all guys are shorter than girls then. I can tick off several guys under 5'10" that are handsome, and that I'm attracted to. I just wasn't able to see it until I got to know them better, if that makes sense.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
My first love was about 3 inches shorter than me. I didn't mind. But then, I don't hesitate to admit, I am unusual.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Oh, BTW CT, I think that written pornography could have a very different effect on couples. First of all, from what I understand, words are far more of a turn on for women just as visuals are far more a turn on for men. Using the written word is a good way to get the wife all steamy for her hubby. It might please him too, but it doesn't have as powerful an effect on him the visual.

I am not going to state my mind on written pornography at the moment (haven't thought about it enough). My "beef" here is more with the visual stuff.
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 
See, porn can have a positive effect on society.

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Researchers said free-to-air satellite TV channels - such as Venus - broadcasting hard-core porn 24-hours-a-day had become a prime vehicle of sex education for women and men alike.

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"My 'beef' here is more with the visual stuff."

So it's okay if it's a turn-on for women, but things that turn men on are nasty and harmful?
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 

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My first love was about 3 inches shorter than me. I didn't mind.

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bev, you're just itching for the OOC thread, aren't you?

I used to have more snobbery about porn. What I liked was erotica, not the trashy stuff that should be called porn. *shrug

But then I read Sallie Tisdale's phenomenal Talk Dirty to Me, a frank and intellectually rigorous look at desire, and I changed my mind. Tisdale manages to be both personally engaging and academically interesting: quite a mix. Unparalleled, in my opinion. And the book has the flat-out sexiest (but completely work-viewing friendly) cover I've ever seen.

By the way, for me, it isn't about "getting the wife all steamy for her hubby." It's about finding out what it is that we both find erotic and exciting -- it's about me learning what turns me on, as well as learning what turns him on. There is nothing more intimate, and as he is my mate for life, I find nothing more pleasing than the lifelong journey of figuring out what makes him tick, be it rational or absolutely outrageous.

The steaminess is just the yummy frosting.

[ April 15, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
I think I should speak up for stories with explicit sexual content. I'm actually in favor of there being more of those, so long as they are good, by which I mean real and true.

I'm not sure what the working definition of porn that most people here are using, but I guess I define it as something meant primarily to get a sexual response. That being its main or only purpose.

The sort of things I think are good would involve your whole self, all your thoughts and emotions. What I would like to see is the same as any other great literature, but have it include detailed sexual information, as well as the rest of the story. Right now it's like only part of the story is told in good writing. And the type of writing which tells more is not truthful or thoughtful or real.

Actually, the type of writing I mean may well exist but suffer from being shunned or sidelined or grouped with the other stuff. Or maybe I've just not heard about it. Sounds like CT knows of some, for instance.

I would write it myself did I not lack qualification, in several important ways.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
ak, do you recognize that your response could be considered sexist? I don't mean that in a negative sense, but do you understand that both you and beverly are actually saying that the kind of things that turn women on are not 'porn'/bad, while the things that turn men on are porn/bad?
 

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Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
 
No, I'm not saying that. I can't speak for beverly. I feel the same way about visual arts. Good art will portray life with faithfulness to what's real and important. Sex is certainly something real and important in life, so I good art will have sexuality as a theme too.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
After having read Tisdale, I realized it is much more difficult for me to make sense of what I find erotic than I thought. In some ways this is unsettling, in some ways reassuring -- at the very least, I have a better sense of where my own areas of comfort and discomfort about myself lie, and I can speak with much more frankness and lack of presumption to others about sex. Given that I quiz teenagers about sexual practices as a matter of course at my job, both not blushing and not making assumptions about what I expect to hear is terrifically useful.

I really, really loved this book. It began as a 1992 essay in Harpers, but the book that evolved from that start is so much more. Booklist has a good review (quoted at Amazon.com):

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Tisdale likes to expose the fallacies of our most thoughtlessly cherished stereotypes. She applied this sort of critical perception to life in the Pacific Northwest in Stepping Westward (1991) but soon moved on to far more mysterious and treacherous territory: the land of desire and arousal. The first incarnation of Talk Dirty to Me was a jolting essay that appeared in Harper's in 1992. Now Tisdale has explored the controversial subject of sexuality in greater depth and with even more chutzpah in this far-reaching, candid, tolerant, and provocative treatise.

Tisdale believes that in spite of the so-called sexual revolution, American sexuality remains juvenile and conflicted. She expands on this by challenging commonly held assumptions about nearly everything related to sexuality, from the age-old and fear-based image of the vagina as a devouring mouth to oral sex to slang for various parts of the body and what we do with them. She also blends personal anecdotes with commonsensical analyses of various attitudes about sexual fulfillment, especially for women.

Tisdale's frame of reference is wide: she compares American and Japanese pornography, quotes from James Joyce's infamous love letters, interviews enterprising prostitutes proud of their skills and earning power, critiques the rhetoric that equates pornography with violence, and analyzes the findings of sex researchers. Uncompromisingly honest if a bit dismissive of the dark side of lust, Tisdale forces us to recognize our sexual self and be more accepting of the needs, and rights, of others.
Donna Seaman

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
ak,
cool.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I haven't thought enough about written porn to decide what I think. Besides, from what CT was talking about, the erotica she and her husband use are about "them". Like the stuff they write for each other. I think that is sweet.

If you want to videotape yourselves having sex and watch it, I don't personally have a problem with that. It is the unrealistic or objectified depictions of women in porn and other things "near porn" with the main point to titilate males that bothers me most.

It is related to the discussion in another thread where I said I believed that men's ideal of women's beauty is (in part) programmed into them by the society they live in. I believe that visual porn (or more likely "near-porn" like the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Calendar) is a part of that.

I can promise you that flat abs have only recently become an important part of female sexiness. A hundred years ago it was the tiny waist that mattered. Before that, something else. Those are the sorts of things that society has influenced. I think most men reject the idea that society has influenced their sexual tastes so much, cause hey, "I know what I like", right? I think the issue is too "close" for most individuals to look at it objectively. Including myself!
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 
Beverly,

do you think the porn that is infiltraiting some parts of the middle east is having a positive or negative impact? see here for details...
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
You know beverly, it's annoying to see you point the finger at men so much. It *isn't* just men's view of what makes women attractive that has been influenced by society, women's view of what makes women attractive is just as influenced. Or do you think all those women out there who starve themselves and get boob jobs are thinking, "gah! This flat stomach and these jumbo-boobs are gross! but it's worth it if men will like me!" I think women think they're attractive too.

I know, I know. You don't. Neither does your husband. You're both exceptions.

Anyway, I just find it to be a grating aspect to your posts.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Sorry, BtL, I admit to being irrational on this subject and bitter. I cannot trust myself to not be unreasonable about it. So many women do it for women. But we are talking about what bothers me in this thread and what women do to impress other women doesn't really matter to me.

Alexa, I am all for being open and talking about sex. Hey, just look at my posts, I love to talk about sex! But I try to do so in a matter that does not debase sex, because I believe it is wonderful and sacred.

I think that any sexually repressed society is going to have problems. But I am not convinced that porn is the best way to create a sexually healthy society. Unfortunately, in a society as close-minded as this particular one, it may be the fastest way to "break them out of it". If they were more open about sex in the first place, they wouldn't need to be "educated by porn". Are you sure it is benefiting them? I'm not.
 

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Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
 
Did I hear my name?

If anyone *cough* is an author, they simply must tell me their "Norm D. Plume" (yes, I know that's taken).
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

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But we are talking about what bothers me in this thread

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what women do to impress other women doesn't really matter to me

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Why not? Is the effect that men and their expectations have on women more important, influential, or potentially damaging than the expectations of women? I would guess, based on your previous posts, that it is for you, but is it invalid to talk about larger issues?

I'm curious, what is your goal with this thread? That is, you say it is about what bothers you. If, by saying that, we are to exclude what others perceive to be true in the more general case (that is, what effect pornography--and societal pressure in general--has on people), that would seem to limit the discussion quite sharply. I suppose what I'm driving at is that if all you're looking for is a backrub then that's fine; that's a completely reasonable thing to want out of a thread. But, if that's the case, I think many of the participants here may have missed it.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Do I think the expectations of men on women are more damaging than the expectations of women on women? I haven't thought much about it yet, but my first answer is, yes. Because men/women sexual relationships are more pivotal to society than women/women non-sexual friendships. They are the foundation upon which families are built, the foundation upon which the next generation is raised.

Sorry I gave the impression that I wanted to keep the discussion narrow. That is not true, I want people to talk openly about a variety of related topics. My comment was responding to someone who asked me why I seem to be accusing the men. Well, because they are the ones using visual-porn (most of the time.)

What is my goal? To make a point. In another thread, the majority of the posters said that they thought there was nothing inherently wrong with porn. My point is that I think, at least for visual porn, there is harm. Not just to the already sick and criminally minded, but to the average individual and society in general.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
You know, I was dead serious when I mentioned in another thread that, even without porn or any kind of fashion industry,the women that hate their bodies would still hate their bodies.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Storm, in all honesty, I disagree.
 

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