I visited friends at BYU while I was down there for conference and also got to interview some local LDS artists with my mom who is working on a paper. I was really fascinated by some of the people I met, especially Vern Swanson of the Springville Art Museum, and now I'm seriously considering transferring to the Y to finish my art history degree. Right now, I'm an art history minor, and I feel like I've gotten everything out of my current department and am still lacking a true professional art history education. If I transferred, it would also save me a ton of money, since I'll have to start paying out of state tuition if I stay here. If I get my BA in art history, I'll then almost certainly go for a masters.
This will undoubtedly end up being more time in school, though. I'm currently one semester away from having a BS in French and a minor in art history and 2 semesters from having a BFA in graphic design.
What are the thoughts of any more experienced BYU alumni? Any experience in the art history program? I know the fine arts program there is less than ideal and way too postmodern for my personal tastes, but the encounters I've had with art history have been good so far.
Any other input as to the smart way to finish my education?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I can't speak to BYU at all, but if you're that close, I'd reconsider transferring now. It would be worth finding out what BYU's requirements are for entering their M.A. program, and possibly modifying your course selection to account for that.
Once you enter an M.A. program, your B.A. work immediately becomes prologue. Extending your time as an undergraduate when you intend to move on to higher degrees seems to provide little benefit.
Dagonee
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh Annie. *hides face in hands* Not the Y...
*grins at the other twin*
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I obviously can't help at all when it comes to what BYU is like but I want you to know that whatever you choose, I know you'll do it well, and I'm proud of you for what you've already done.
Hobbes Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
I'm with Kat on this one. Going to BYU means you'll... [whisper]be living in Provo.[/whisper]
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Rise and shout the Cougars are out... da da da da da da da, da....
Annie, don't listen to kat or T. The only people who say things like that are people who can't get into BYU.
Go to the Y. It's a great experience, a great campus with solid educational opportunities. And that's coming from someone who graduates with a master's degree from USU this month.
Of course, my first degree is from the Y.
If you go to the Y, will you bring that mushy Hobbes with you?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Annie, where are you attending now? For all the complaints that it could be better, the Y does have some national name recognition. But I don't know about the quality of their Art History program. Isn't ranked in U.S. News and World Report for some scandalous reason. I went to the U, but I'm not really into the whole rivalry thing.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Trogdor, Can I order a Ute Stomping Cougarfied burnination for Pooka.
I AM into the whole rivalry thing. Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
**burninates pooka the darkest shade of royal blue there is, then dances on her worthless Utah Ute ashes**
**reminds pooka that he kids her cause he likes her**
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Here's my question, Annie:
What do you want to *do* with your degree?
You want to go for a master's in art history, right? Does that mean you'd like to teach, or curate, or work for a gallery, or become an archivist or an art restorer? How much flexibility do you want in where in the country you have a good chance of obtaining a decent job? What type of art are you most interested in?
If you are fine with working as a graphic designer [and feel you have enough of a portfolio, etc. that you don't need a degree in it], then I say go to the Y and enjoy yourself.
If you want to teach art at a two-year college or high school [rare] in the Intermountain West, then go to the Y.
If you think you can compete succesffully for the very limited curating/archivist/gallery jobs in the Intermountain West and are interested in "Western" or American Indian art, then go to the Y [although there are much better choices for both categories, I bet -- esp. for American Indian art].
If not any of those, then I'd look into other options. At the very least consider getting just your BA at BYU and going elsewhere for an MA or MFA.
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Annie- Definitely take a long look at what credits will transfer etc. before you move. I have nothing but praise for the quality of education at BYU. I have found it to be on par with any other major university- though I also think that for undergrad education for most schools what you get out depends mostly on what you put in.
So basically it comes down to what you might gain by leaving the program you are in and going to BYU. To be honest, on the intellectual side if you have only 1 semester left I cannot imagine that even if the BYU program is much better you would gain all that much in proportion to the headache of transferring. On the side of basic university experience, though, I have no doubt that the change would be extreme. Student life and the student body of BYU is so far different from any university I have heard of that I don't know of any comparison that would do it justice. This, of course, includes both good and bad aspects.
For the sake of poor Hobbes I also feel it necessary to point out that going to BYU also increases your chances of getting married within the next year by about 5 fold. I think that about 3/4of the college-educated Mormons in the US met their spouse at BYU.
[ April 07, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Jacare Sorridente ]
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Thanks, Troggy. The DSORB reference made my day.
True BYU sports fans should check out this. It's my favorite BYU related site.
added: Pooka, I wouldn't do it if I didn't love you too.
[ April 07, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: peterh ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Unless you are independently wealthy, the only degree that I can see mattering is the graphics one since that will help you get a job. So, I guess my vote is to stay another two semesters where you are at.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
My main motivations are just to get into the real world of art history. Right now I'm an art history minor, and I think I've really gotten the most out of a possible education here. I've had some good professors, but this is a fine arts program, and my papers are astronomically better than everyone else's for the sole reason that everyone else is a painter or a graphic designer and has at best very basic writing skills.
For me in my current financial situation, BYU is one of my only options. There is no way I could afford an out-of-state program.
I guess what I'm debating most is whether to stay in Bozeman for the 3 French credits and the 3 art history independent study credits I'd need to graduate in December. It might be smarter to do this and then apply to the Y's grad program, but my art history minor gives me just the bare minimum in art history credits needed to apply for grad school and again, I have no way of knowing how competitive my writing abilities are on a scale larger than my little 3-professor department.
And don't you worry, I won't be seriously threatened by all the offers of marriage that will be flying my way - my Hobbesy is way too good to me to tempt me to give serious thought to anyone else.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Annie:
You still haven't answered my question about what you want do. Forget the money for a moment and answer that question.
Now -- about your worry about the minimum number of credits:
How are your grades?
How good is your French?
If both of those are decent, then I wouldn't worry so much about the smallness of the program you are in. This is assuming, of course, (and I think it's a correct assumption) that you can get good recommendations from at least one of your Art History profs and one other prof.
As far as your writing goes -- I don't think that's an issue. From what I can tell, you would be a better writer than *at least* 85% of your fellow art history graduate students in even more competitive programs than BYU's.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I don't know anything about the Art History program at BYU, so I can't give any advice, but I just couldn't let this thread pass by without saying that
BYU SUCKS!!!
There, now I feel better.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
I think your doing yourself a disservice by not finishing the french degree somewhere. You've only got 1 class to go.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
What happened? You couldn't get into BYU's law school?
Sorry about that.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Oh dear. My de-emphasis of the rivalry has had an unexpected consequence. :hugs peter, leaving a large red handprint on the back of his shirt:
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Actually, I walked up to BYU law school's table at Law Day, chatted with the rep for a while, asked him about what they look for in LSAT scores, mentioned my own score, grinned at the look on his face and agreed with him as he said "Well, with a score like that, you have your pick of schools. You wouldn't want to come to our school anyway." Then I walked away.
It was delicious.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
Oh bull crap. You wanted to be a Zoob. Admit it. Coogie lover.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
<----amused by the tempest considering the very small teapots involved -- it's like watching two kitties hiss and spit at each other.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
**hisses and spits at Zal**
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
I've taken six art classes at BYU while working towards an art minor, but none of them were in art history, so I don't feel qualified to comment on that program. I have mixed feelings about some of the other classes. I loved figure drawing and observational drawing, but spatial drawing and color theory were a waste of my time, and composition was infuriatingly post-modern (half the time, the teacher ranted about chaos theory ). I'm probably not going to finish the minor just because it'll cost me another semester of tuition, and it probably won't help me develop my skills much more. (The most advanced classes in the minor are fundamentals classes—whoopee!)
However, I love BYU. It's a great environment and a great education. Sure, it means that you have to live in Provo, but it also means that you can hang out with all the cool Utah Jatraqueros. Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
For sheer animosity and partisan zeal, the Utah-BYU rivalry (the Holy War) is the equal of any major-college rivalry in the U.S. It's just that the number of fans and the size of the stadiums is not as huge.
It has just gotten worse in the last decade or so. Before that, the U had a long dry spell in almost all sports (except gymnastics and, I think, skiing), so it wasn't much of contest. Now it's a lot more fun.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:Oh Annie. *hides face in hands* Not the Y...
*grins at the other twin*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Alabama versus Auburn.
People have actually killed over that one.
Posted by Not a Danite (Member # 6185) on :
kat, don't be too sure that it hasn't happened in this rivalry as well.
Not that I know anything.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*pat pat*
I hold that no rivalry that doesn't involve alcohol and/or Texas egos can compete in the Crazy Competition.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Does anyone outside of Utah know about this rivalry?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
The Holy War does involve alcohol, at least on the part of U fans, who like to be blatant about their drinking when the Y fans are watching. And I think that Utah County egos can compete with Texas egos any day.
Posted by Trogdor the Burninator (Member # 4894) on :
quote:It's just that the number of fans and the size of the stadiums is not as huge.
Which for, Utah fans, that number is nigh unto negligible.
I loved the U add campaign two years ago.
"Utah football -- Don't make us come and get you."
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Lawguy: Which law school is higher ranked? I rest my case.
Also, when bringing up sports that the Yewts are successful in compared to BYU, skiing is as relevant as me saying BYU's mens volleyball team is better. (Although making it to the national championships 3 of the last 5 years and winning 2 isn't bad)
Pooka: I can take off my shirt, but the blue scarring burnination will take much longer to wear off
Annie: BYU is a great school and will have much greater name value than a degree from MT State. However, my main advice is to stay in school as long as you can. Change your major a couple times, take business classes, and hold out on those last few credits you need for graduation as long as you can. Once you're done, it's very difficult to go back. I wish I had double majors and 4-5 minors. That way, I'd be much more attractive in the job market, and have a much broader knowledge base to work from.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*points to zan's post*
The record attendance for a football game for my Texas high school is 23,000. 23,000!! In a town with 80,000 people! For a high school!
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Sports journalists around the country know about the rivalry, because it's their job to know about it. And fans of other teams in the Mountain West Conference know about it, because they have to play against both teams several times a year. And Mormons across much of the U.S., especially the West, know about it because they are either a) BYU alumni, b) close relatives of BYU students or alumni, c) people who could never get into BYU but still idealize it and aspire to send their children there or, in a few cases, d) U of U alumni.
Unfortunately, our national television coverage isn't widespread enough for very many other people to be aware of the rivalry.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So...
1. people who are paid to know it, 2. people who live near it, and 3. people who went to one of those schools
?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
peterh, their respective law school rankings seesaw back and forth, based on which school has had the most recent major addition. For instance, Utah was ranked slightly higher when I was accepted, but BYU passed them up a couple of years later when they built their new law library. However, the ranks are always almost identical. As a side note, both schools are also some of the best values in the country, when comparing their rankings to their tuitions.
And I only mentioned skiing to show that, up until the early 90's, the U didn't have much success in any major sports, just in some minor ones, but that that situation has changed now.
Posted by peterh (Member # 5208) on :
Kat, I know of most college football rivalries in the country, because I care about it. If you don't then that's one less person I have to wait in line behind at the concession stands at halftime. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Couldn't you attend an art school of national reputation outside of Utah?
Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
Tom- the whole beginning of her thoughts about going to the Y stem from the fact that she likes it there. Shocking, I know.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
It is shocking. It is time to do an intervention?
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
The question of what Annie really wants to do with her career is really important here. If she plans on being a graphic designer, all that really matters is her skill, and few will care which, if any, degree she has. If she wants to be a curator, I would imagine that the type of degree, reputation of the school, and focus of the curriculum are of HUGE importance.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
And then there was the out-of-state tuition to consider.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Kat, I know of most college football rivalries in the country, because I care about it. If you don't then that's one less person I have to wait in line behind at the concession stands at halftime.
That's my point. I don't care, not even remotely, and even I know about Alabama and Auburn.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
My opinion, finish the existing degree. It is exactly one semester. Having a degree to fall back on is invaluable. And if you only have 6 units required fill up the other 6 with more art classes that will look good when you apply to grad school.
If you want to go to BYU the following semester to pad your art classes further, while you are applying to grad schools, go by all means. If they will take you mid year as a grad student that woulds be even better. But, Quitting that short of a degree in French though limits your options. While yes, you want your life's work to be art, what if you are in between art gigs and penniless? You could support yourself as a substitute French teacher if you had to.
Also my understanding as far as grad school goes, is that just about any public university you should be able to get an out of state tuition waver at the least. Though things may be different in artistic fields vs scientific ones.
Especially in artistic fields prestige and connections are everything. You need to go to a university that allows you to make those connections. You shouldn't be worrying about the money now. That is what college loans are for. Once you graduate, you aren't considered a dependent and they no longer look at parental income for those loans either.
I understand that the LDS church preaches thriftiness, but education and buying a house seem to be the two most legitimate reasons for going into debt, because you are investing in yourself and your future. You are preparing to live the rest of your life, and you want to have the best preparation possible in order to make it rewarding as possible. Don't limit yourself and hamstring yourself before you start by not be willing to take out a relatively small loan to get through school.
This is just my opinion.
AJ
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Because of their small fanbase, the BYU-Utah rivalry wouldn't be that big of a deal normally. But the addition of the religious element heats it up beyond its natural bounds. Most college rivalries don't have that aspect, but make up for it in sheer size.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
So, not to be silly, but what's the job market for any of the various degrees Annie wants? Is this a silly question?
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Exactly B-OJ.
And actually LDS Church leaders have repeatedly said the obvious -- that education and home ownership are two areas where it makes sense to go into debt.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
another point... I went on for a Master's degree, but didn't finish either that or my second bachelor's due to stress-induced depression. I was extremely glad I'd finished my first bachelor's degree even though I hated it at the end. It is the reason why I'm employed now.
AJ
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
But if you can get an equivalent education without going into massive debt, that's better.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Incidentally, I'm not LDS and probably never will be, but I do like their ideas on frugality and thriftiness, down to the whole having a garden thing. Though we have to get the house fixed up to tolerableness before I'll have time to start a garden.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
One semester of debt is okay. I didn't take out loans until my senior year (due to a scholarship and a job that were enormously fun, no responsibility, and which prolonged my adolescence until about 23), and they'll be gone by the end of the summer. (yay!)
--
Banna, I recommend sunflowers.
[ April 07, 2004, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
SS:
Short answer: not good.
Long answer: a lot depends on what she wants to do. Annie has a lot going for her so I think that she can be competitive in a variety of fields should she choose to. The question is what she is most intrested in doing.
I'm not saying that low tuition and an attractive environment shouldn't be important considerations -- but especially when it comes to arts and letters master's degrees, the projected end result should be a serious factor. There's nothing worse than settling for a master's degree program that either isn't as challenging as it should be, doesn't have an emphasis that you are interested in, and/or doesn't get you the contacts/experience/credentials you need to gain entry into your chosen field or profession.
I settled for a graduate degree program because of cost and convenience. It was the right thing to do and worked out well for me. But I do regret not making more of an effort to challenge myself.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
quote:But if you can get an equivalent education without going into massive debt, that's better.
Of course. But that's the whole question here, isn't it?
Don't get me wrong -- I think BYU is great for some programs. Graphic design would be one of them -- BYU graphic design alumns are, in my experience, the equal of those from any other top-rakned program in the country. Accounting would be another. BYU also has a high rated doctorate of education program.
But I'm dubious about art history at the Y -- unless certain conditions apply [i.e. see my second post on page one].
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
That's cool. I'm not against knowledge for its own sake, but I think every person who has had to support themselves at a crap job for peanuts an hour will get behind the idea that it's also important to plunk some money down on honing employable skills. It might even be a good idea to do both at the same time....
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Jon Boy if BYU profs have the connections and pull to get Annie a museum curator job, that is great. I'm just not positive they have the connections that the Chicago Art Institute has.
AJ
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If she wants to be a graphic designer, I'd say its about fifty-fifty graphic design skill and marketing skill, even for in house designers. Unless one works for a graphic design firm or a particularly large company, the only way to get a much better graphic design job is to switch employers, because there are no higher level graphic design positions. Which means a high need for marketing skill. The logic is pretty much self explanatory for freelance designers.
[ April 07, 2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I agree with Banna. If she really is shooting for a museum curator job, then I would guess that it would be worth her while to try and make it into a 'known' art school with profs and faculty with connections.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory? Honestly, job prospects aren't even part of my decision - if I wanted to go that route, I'm suitably experienced at this point to get a graphic design job even without a degree.
And this leads to the other main influence of my decision - my lack of funds. The only reason BYU is being considered is because it's a church school and is very affordable - less even than the in-state tuition I'm paying now. I already have more debt than I want and I've been maxing out my federal student aid since my scholarship ran out.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Simultaneous post- sorry!
I guess something that may not be clear is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints get a discount similar to In state tuition break at a state school.
In terms of school debt, the important thing is whether you have a good likelihood that the schooling you are going into debt for will yield a career where you can pay off that debt. Generally, I'd only recommend plunging into educational debt if you are in some kind of professional or certification program. Going into debt to become a school teacher will probably shortchange your future. (As an example, I know Annie hasn't mentioned this). And you only need a high school diploma to be a substitute teacher in Utah. Everyone short of an actual teaching certificate makes the same.
[ April 07, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Annie, I hear you. I stayed in school for ages because I was having so much fun and I liked the knowledge. I have a practical degree, but I also have three impractical minors and 60 extra semester hours.
If you're staying in school because you want to stay in school and you're happy there, do whatever (1) keeps your options open, and (2) costs the least, because debt follows you. The prophet says going into debt is fine for educational purposes, but after a while, it is funding a student lifestyle and not working towards the future.
Graduating does bite. Having said that... The future will come. Quite literally, don't mortgage it. The more debt you aquire now, the fewer options you have later.
[ April 07, 2004, 04:34 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Annie I'm not talking about how much money you make. I'm talking about your future in whatever you do. Unless you want a PhD and to stay in academia all your life, of you want to follow your passion you need to be sure you are at a place that can accomodate your passion and help it grow. And that can provide connections post- schooling if you don't want to stay totally in academia that can help you keep persuing that passion.
And to do a worst case scenario, what if you married Hobbes(or anyone else) who was making enough money so you could follow your dreams without worrying about paying for a roof over your head, but he suddenly died and you had a brood of children to feed? (Even if he has life insurance because that normally goes to pay off the worst of the debts like a home loan etc.) Teaching French would look a lot better than flipping burgers or working at walmart. Yes I know you would get support from your family and church as well but, I'm betting you would be kicking yourself for not finishing the french degree...
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
quote: And you only need a high school diploma to be a substitute teacher in Utah. Everyone short of an actual teaching certificate makes the
Pooka I agree with most of what else you said, but this makes the assumption that Annie will be living in Utah for the rest of her life. And to pursue the other dreams she is talking about travel elsewhere is likely in the picture at some point. I assure you that public schools in other states require a Bachelor's of something in order for you to substitute teach.
I still think you can get tuition waivers for out of state tuition in most master's degree programs as part of a financial aid package. Going for a graduate degree resets some of your financial aid formulas. But they don't get reset until you get the B.A.
AJ
[ April 07, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm glad to hear that, AJ, I was kind of horrified that they put so little value on substitutes.
P.S. I never planned to spend the rest of my life in Utah, but I don't really see me leaving anytime soon.
So Annie, you need one more semester- is that over the summer or are you talking next fall?
[ April 07, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory?
Actually, I've found that in fields where most people are not motivated by money but for love of the job, competition can be even more stiff, and a good educational resume even more important, than in more financial jobs.
Even more, educational credentials matter for longer in your career in such settings than in other fields, where within 5 years or so your experience will matter more.
I'm not trying to sound preachy, but this is something that is not evident until it's too late sometimes.
Dagonee
[ April 07, 2004, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't know if I'd want to go into a field where connections were the only thing that mattered.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Go for it, and drag Hobbes along. How is the Civil Engineering school at the Y?
Debt for education and a house is good. All other debt is bad. Education always pays off. I agree that you want something you can earn a good living with, though. For your own sake as well as your kids. I think Mom needs to be capable of being fully independent in all important ways and being able to earn a good living is a pretty important way. (Just as Dad should be able to cook and do child care and keep a decent house. Specialization is for insects. )
It's not even that you might need it (which you may) but that it enhances who you are. I'm convinced it makes you a better wife and mother both, if you are also a kickass accountant or attorney or french teacher or museum curator or whatever. Education is great just for the sake of knowing, of course, but putting it to use is even better because you learn things in that way that you can't learn any other way.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Dagonee, does that mean you don't think she should finish the French degree?
Clearly there are two different issues.
1) finishing the French degree or abandoning it (clearly I've come down on the side of finishing) 2) grad school (and which grad school (which I am for, but after she finishes the french degree)
The French degree might also make you stand out slightly more as far as resumes and porfolios go.
But Annie, it is your life, do what you think in your heart is best. I'm arguing a point. It isn't personal for me, other than the fact I'm soo glad I finished my first degree since the others didn't materialize like I thought they were going to.
AJ
[ April 07, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:How about if I don't care how much money I make and am just interested in grad school as a way to pursue what I truly love and believe in - which is contemporary art theory and the eventual downfall of postmodernism and chaos theory?
Then that's fine. Go for it.
But do you really need grad school for this pursuit? While there was some value, of course, in having assigned readings and deadlines for writing projects, I'm finding that my intellectual pursuits are more rich and of personal interest now that I'm done with school. Granted, I don't have as much time to pursue them, but at least I'm writing and reading what I want to and engaging in conversation with the people who I want to.
Grad school wasn't a waste for me. For one thing, it helped me figure out what I wanted to do and put me on my current career path. For another, a couple of courses really did influence my thinking about literature, culture, etc. But a lot of it was also experiencing stuff that I could have at a faster pace and in a more direct way if I had been making money and using part of my free time and part of the resources I used on school to indulge my intellectual pursuits.
Again: what do you want to do with your contemporary art theory? What works do you want to create; what communities do you want to become involved in? It's a very important question. You don't have to know the answers now. Grad school may help you figure that out [although it's easy to just coast along and not figure it out -- you go to class, you do your assignment, you get validation from your grades and your classroom discussions, but at the end the question is always -- to what end?]. But it's good to have some idea, to have some eventual goal beyond just acquiring knowledge. At least that's my earned-the-hard-way opinion.
What I'm saying is that grad school can be quite beguiling -- esp. in the humanities. But if you see it as a deferrement of reality or an end unto itself, it's bound to dissapoint, I think.
EDIT: I see others have said much the same thing. Sorry for piling it on.
AND: Great link, JB. My favorite title that came up after a few clicks -- "Baudrillardist hyperreality in the works of Madonna." That's hilarious. Oh, yeah, and let me plug yet again my own take on shoddy postmodernism: Another Academic Journal Falls for Postmodern Hoax.
[ April 07, 2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I could enumerate how badly educational debt can be abused from my own sad history but I don't want to make anyone depressed.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Banna -- most states I know of only require either junior or senior standing (in credit hours) for substitute teaching.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:But if you see it as a deferrement of reality or an end unto itself, it's bound to dissapoint, I think.
Actually, I think it can be highly effective and enjoyable as a deferrment of reality. The only price is to stay in that world...
My best friend is still in that, and he's seen his options slip away. He's the smartest person I've ever met, and loves learning from head to toe, and has some other things in life, but...there's a time and place for everything. The reality he's deferred is no longer waiting for him. After a while, the preparation for a life becomese simply life.
Not that I think Annie is remotely close to doing this. My friend takes EVERYTHING to extremes in all cases. A blast to be around, but under no circumstances a role model or a representative of anything other than himself.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dagonee, does that mean you don't think she should finish the French degree?
No - I absolutely think she should finish the French degree, especially if she's only one credit away. The M.A. program at UVa requires German and one Romance language - I assume other programs are similar. Plus, it's a very international field, so languages are good in general. I know one class won't make you more fluent, but again, credentials matter.
Dagonee
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Really? I had a minor in math along with my engineering degree and still wasn't viewed as qualified enough to substitute teach high school calculus in the Chicago area.
Plus there isn't just substitute teaching to consider. Actually teaching French in a school system while not high paying would give you something to live on and the summers off to pursue your art and other passions.
AJ
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
AK, I know that BYU has a pretty good ME department but I haven't heard anything (positive or negative) about CE. I'd rather not move to Utah myself for various reasons (one of which being it would be one more reason for my family to not support any of my choices) but if it came down to it, I'm willing to go any where for Annie, and a place as benign as Utah doesn't begin to challenge that comittment.
Hobbes Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Well, apart from Hobbes being an absolute sweetie (which we've established a long time ago), here are the thoughts I've had on the subject today.
As disillusioned as I am about my art options, I had a fabulous talk today with my French professor that really encouraged me. (You get to do things like this when you're the only student who shows up for class)
I think I've decided to finish my French bachelor's and art history minor and apply to grad schools. I'm much more encouraged by my options since I've thought it over, and I think finishing french is what I owe myself, even if I'm sick of the art scene here. My professor reassured my worries about my writing skills, and I feel confident enough that I can get into grad school in art history even without the bachelor's degree in it. I think I'm still considering the Y because of my newfound fascination with Wulf Barsch and the Mormon Art and Belief Movement and the conviction that I'm going to save the world from Matthew Barney.
Thanks everyone for your intelligent support, especially AJ. And thanks Jon Boy for the hilarious postmodern backup.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
btw Annie, who is matthew barney? I've never heard of him <grin>
Oh yes Kat, I just planted 24 pansies in our window boxes. There was a close call where I thought I'd lost them when one morning they looked fine and that evening they looked dead, but they perked up after some water and they seem to be doing ok now.
AJ
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Anything I can do to support the cause, Annie. Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
quote:I think I'm still considering the Y because of my newfound fascination with Wulf Barsch and the Mormon Art and Belief Movement and the conviction that I'm going to save the world from Matthew Barney.
Now this is a good reason to go to the Y, and one that I support whole-heartedly [you need my validation, right ?].
Go Annie! Melt those post-modern pretensions like so much vaseline left to be de-congealed by the hot summer sun of form, aesthetics, belief and history.
BTW: Are you familiar with the volume _Arts and Inspiration: Mormon Perspecitves_? [Ed. Stephen Sondrup, Provo, Utah: BYU Press, 1980].
Much of it is related to literature and music, but there are some interesting essays about visual art -- and other essays apply to art and aesthetics in general. Check it out. You should be able to get it through ILL rather easily. Oddly enough, my academic library actually has a copy of it.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
So I take it none of you think Matthew Barney jokes are funny. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
considering I don't know who he is (and haven't bothered to google yet) I'd probably laugh politely if it was clearly supposed to be funny in the context of a conversation and that's about it.
AJ
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I guess it would be counter to your mission to promote our understanding of who this Barney monster is you are trying to defeat.
Hmmm. Weird. He made something called "The Cremaster Cycle", an epic named after the muscle responsible for "Shrinkage", as I recall.
[ April 08, 2004, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
*laughs politely at Zal's Barney jokes*
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Apparently he made a set of 5 post-modern films called Cremaster 1-5. I looked at the trailer for the first one. The images were beautifully presented, but I couldn't discern any actual plot. It has something to do with some human cycle involving the testes and was possibly also called something involving cremaster. I'm not sure. I watched it yesterday, and my memory has faded.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Explaining a joke makes it not funny. Which is exactly why I'm going to explain it.
The joke isn't my use of imagery related to Matthew Barney's art career [in addition to the Cremaster series, he has made "sculptures" out of vaseline]. It's the follow-up post expecting people to think the joke would be something people would get and think funny.
In other words, the joke is on Barney and his elitist art.
EDIT: And laughing politely is, I think, the appropriate response.
[ April 08, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Oddly enough, Barney doesn't really consider himself a filmmaker, but a sculptor. The five-hour plotless films filled with bizarre random imagery are nothing more than an elaborate stage for his large-scale vaseline sculptures. At a recent exhibition, he cast a giant vaseline and wax pig, but the mixing was done wrong and the sculpture collapsed. He displayed it anyway, celebrating the chaos that helped him create his sculpture.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
*cries at the death of art*
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
For the record I have no problem with the use of vaseline as a medium for art. And while it's not always to my taste, I think there's room for bizarre imagery in art.
It's the breathy hype and writing and attempts at finding deep meaning and genius in Barney's work and the self-congratulatory tones that people who are aware of it use in talking/writing about it that I find hilarious and a little sad.
On one level his work is nothing more than hipster semiotics -- the signifiers don't matter except as they point to a signified "coolness." The other level is so intensely private to his mind that I'm not sure it matters much (or should matter much) to an audience.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Personal theory of art, culled from years of classes, museum attendance, experimentation, and aesthetics. AND... I'm sorry - the reason I refuse to do theory.
If it cannot be stand without the little museum plaque, it's not art. In other words, if the artist fears to have his name and possibly a title alone attached to it, it's not art. All else counts.
Edit: spelling
[ April 08, 2004, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Are you looking for a degree, or wanting to study an interest?
If its the degree, I can't help you with any advice.
However, if it is an education on a subject -- you really don't need school. The steps to a good education, with minimal cost, is to live near a College or host of libraries. Visit live and Internet book sellers and join Internet discussion groups. Look on the various Art School web sights and ask students for the textbooks and reading material used. In other words, read and read some more and keep reading till you don't want to no more.
The more practical and hands-on your interests, the more likely college classes with good professors are necessary. However, the more theoretical and bookish the subject (and Art History sounds like this), the more independant your learning can be. You are most likely to be doing nothing other than reading anyway. The major drawback to this might be feedback, but that is why there are Journals and Magazines. With those you may even have a chance to get paid for your work.
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I obviously can't help at all when it comes to what BYU is like but I want you to know that whatever you choose, I know you'll do it well, and I'm proud of you for what you've already done. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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- my Hobbesy is way too good to me to tempt me to give serious thought to anyone else.
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