The last episode I saw was the one where Cordelia came back to life, and at the end of the episode, died. And we discover that she'd never been really 'alive' the whole time.
I come back last night, there's a chic with blue hair hanging around, Fred's gone, Gunn's in the hospital with. . . guilt about something to do with Fred, and Angel and Spike are all chummy.
Che?
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
in short gun acidentally let an ancient spirit enter fred's body and the spirit thing ate fred's soul and took over her body(ie. the purple smurf thing). angel and spike found a way to save her but they didn't because it would kill thousands of people. Weasly had fallen in love with fred before she died.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
To flesh that out a bit:
1. Gunn signed an order to bring the relic that caused Fred's transformation in to the country [and thus Wolfram & Hart]. He did this because he wanted to make his brain permanently juiced up.
2. Westley stabbed Gunn.
3. Angel and Spike are all chummy because, well, they've been fighting together a lot and that makes Spike happy and Spike discovered he likes everybody [esp. Fred] more than he thought and wants to be a hero. Angel tolerates him because his ranks are getting thin and it turns out the whatever-it's-called prophecy probably is about him and not Spike -- his doubts about it were caused by Lindsey's machinations.
4. There's a big {supposedly THE big] apocalypse coming.
But mainly everybody is really depressed about Fred.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh, and the new liasion dresses really well.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
And Adam baldwin is on the show, which makes me happy. And connor's back, which is weird.
Ni!
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote:And Adam baldwin is on the show, which makes me happy.
I knew I had seen that new liason somewhere.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I was wondering, why did the liason kill a security gaurd of his new employer for no apparant reason? I mean if he now works there he should just show the security gaurd his papers, why the f*** did he punch him through the chest?
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I never did see a shelf down in the cellar that had light bulbs on it.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Q guys, what ever happend to that blond guy who was going out with Cordelia? The one with the pure black eyes who talked kindof like Teal'c on Stargate, he was around for the Conor thing, I loved him! What happened to him?
Posted by Koga (Member # 5646) on :
Gru? The dude from Pylea who was half demon? Yeah, he was cool, but he was there just for Cordelia, when he realized she didn't have feelings for him, he just went home.
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
because no one else did...*****SPOILERS*****
Actually, Groo (a.k.a. the Groosalag) just left. The story didn't say he went home to Pylea. The story seemed a bit more concerned with Cordelia finding out she was in love with Angel, and then deciding to tell him, then getting told by Skip that she could become a higher being so she gets taken up before she can tell Angel, and then Connor locks Angel in a box and drops him in the ocean for 3 months as the season finale.
Here's the part I missed and I need to find. I'm guessing Cordy got kicked off the higher plane and given amnesia 'cuz she caused the jackpot that freed Angel when he was in Vegas. But I think I've missed the part where Cordy became taken over by evil and then plots to give birth to Jasmine and steal Angel's soul, etc. My question is when did she become possessed by evil? Was it before she slept with Connor? So then did she get possessed by evil when the huge demon unstoppable horned thing came out of the ground where Connor was born and grabbed her by the throat? Maybe I need to find an online episode guide...
[ April 24, 2004, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: JonnyNotSoBravo ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
This sounds like the weirdest show.
And not necessarily in a good way.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
***SPOILERS (kind of)***
I think the poccession was while she was a higher power, but I have no idea how I came up with that thought.
[ April 16, 2004, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Marek ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
So does Connor know. . . or not?
I vote that he does.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I think he does too.
So does anyone know why the new liason killed the security gaurd?
MEC
[ April 24, 2004, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
I vote "he knows" too.
He'd have to, since it was obvious he was close enough to the shattered thingie that gave access to memories of the unaltered reality. That explains why he was suddenly able to dispatch the demon who was wiping the floor with him.
I think we were supposed to think that Connor made a choice at the end to embrace the gift of the new reality that Angel had given him. And his one oblique comment about "taking care of family" as something his father taught him was a way of letting Angel know.
I'll bet if there had been another season of Angel that wouldn't have been the end of it, though. Joss Wheedon hates to have people stay happy for very long (how long did Wesley and Fred get?). Probably by next season, we would have seen a tormented and torn Connor coming back, trying to come to grips with his two incompatible realities - since the changes wrought were far greater on him than anyone else.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Connor and Buffy hook up. . . at the end of last season, Connor's adopted family said that he was going to spend some time in Russia, and Buffy is over in Europe, so . ..
That'd be too cheesy.
Connor steals TWO girls from Papa Vamp.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Well THAT was interesting. (note timestamp)
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Ack!
Um.
ACK!
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Aaargh! Next week! Oh lord! I can't take this anymore.
I am really going to miss this show.
*heavy sigh*
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:Well THAT was interesting. (note timestamp)
(9:33 pm) - yep. Remember it well. This is how the conversation went at my house at the commercial break:
Me: Well, I guess it's all over now. Diane: How are they going to do 4 more episodes? Me: Well, I'm wondering how they're going to fill up 25 minutes more of showtime.
Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
quote: I think the poccession was while she was a higher power, but I have no idea how I came up with that thought.
Yeah, it was. They said it at some point. I think that was the reason the demons wanted her to became a higher power. Some grandoise demon plan or something. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'd have a lot of respect for him if he ended like that, halfway through the 4th to last episode. Teach WB to cancel him!
Dagonee
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
poor joss. he just can't win with anything lately. I wish ONE of his shows was going to stay on tv.
Ni!
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Did more happen? I changed channels after all that happened.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
In my understanding, WB didn't notify Joss & Co. that they were cancelling Angel until after this season's episodes had all been filmed.
So, while we'll get a season finale, it probably won't be on the scale of Buffy's series finale.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I was wondering why they didn't free that one guy buy putting the necklace on the torturer, I just assumed they didn't because it was against the rules or something.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I assumed it wouldn't work because he's already in the dimension. But if he was entering before and exiting after each session, it makes sense.
Dagonee
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Well, maybe the explanation for their failure to try that out boils down to something Cordelia said two seasons ago when arguing that they really needed to consult with Angelus:
"Evil is smarter"
The irony, of course, is that Cordelia was clandestinely evil at the time she said that.
And they bought it.
[ April 29, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: sndrake ]
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Illyria, someone who thought of herself as the source of all rules and power, would've thought of that. I mean, it is an elegant idea that comes from thinkin' outside the box.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I prefer Mel Brooks's way of putting it. "Evil will triumph because good is dumb."
Posted by Sugar+Spice (Member # 5874) on :
It's really annoying that they've cancelled it. I caught an episode of one of the previous seasons the other day and it's not bad, actually really funny in places, dramatic in others. Everyone always told me it was just Buffy's lame twin.
Plus, who doesn't want to see more of Spike?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Frankly, I think Spike might be the best example of character development in TV. He goes from being pretty much the most evil villain to being a hero, and every step is believable. No magic wand waving, no sudden revelation. Actual growth, with a few kicks along the way from U.S. Army technology.
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
If only they could have skipped the part where he was always so whiny about Buffy.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Only six more episodes? YES!!!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Zgator: True, that was the only time his character seemed less than genuine.
Nick: That's a hangin' offense in some states!
Dagonee
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Zgator,
maybe we're getting a peek into Wheedon's own personality - since all of Buffy's suitors turned whiny at some point or other.
Definitely prefer Spike in non-whiny mode.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Although I have enjoyed Spike's development, I have recently come to the realization [after watching some of the earlier seasons] that the development of Gunn as a character has been quite remarkable. The way he has grown, made mistakes. And the way the mistakes of his past always haunt and impinge upon his present.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree, Zalmoxis. And Gunn's failures and redemptions have been much more human and murky. With Spike, it was pretty straightforward. Soul removed, gets muzzled, falls in love, decides to make with the moral opposite day
With Gunn, though, he was always rationalizing things. Spike never had that problem, really. More shades of grey with Gunn.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Anybody else remember Wesley Windham Price - Rogue Demon Hunter? I believe you could say Wesley was a study in character growth as well.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yeah, but Wesley went from buffoon (remember the scene where Giles is fencing with him while reading a book, and having no problem keeping Wesley at bay) to fairly bad-ass, with no stops along the way.
Dagonee
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Warning: This post has spoilers.
Most definitely. And I like Wes a lot.
But you know, his character development hasn't been as interesting to me because you kind of knew that he was going to become a bitter, brooding fellow. What's funny [and this is true of all the characters] is that he really hasn't changed all that much. Everything is still always about him and his sense of idealism as well as his own personal obsessions.
I don't know. On the one hand, I like the drama of Wes being put through the ringer. The whole kidnap Connor thing. The rescue Angel thing. And I thought the whole storyline with his relationship with Laila (splg?) was quite compelling. On the other hand, I think that the whole Wes transforms thing was a little overdramatized. Just a touch. And I'm not talking about *what* happens. I'm talking more about how the *what* was totally telegraphed and was brooded and lingered upon a little too much for my tastes.
One more thing about Gunn: I admit I was surprised by the whole lawyer thing. It made total sense afterwards -- he's always had concerns about being "only the muscle" -- something put in high relief by his relationship with Fred, etc. At first it was just kind of cool. Gunn in Armani, you know. But to see what they've done with it lately with the whole Ilyria storyline. Awesome. Him putting on that necklace had reverberations not just back to him signing those papers but all the way back through him doing the killing of the dude that sent Fred to the hell dimension and ultimately him having to kill his sister.
Wes is acting all moody and depressed at the loss of Fred. But Gunn has given up a lot more over the years. He had made some poor decisions. But he has also always paid for those decisions with full knowledge of the price of the payment.
EDIT: Just saw Dag's post. Yep, I agree, and you said it in a much more succint way.
[ April 29, 2004, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Gotta admit though, I identify with the Wesley/Giles characters, since if I ever get to be a super hero it will be a brainy one, not a muscly one.
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
As brainy as Giles is, he has his dark side.
I agree that Wes went to a serious character from a buffoon quickly, but it took a while for him to become the brooding guy that has no qualms about murder and torture.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
so was Illyria's line in the begining about the plants a reference to the alvin maker series?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Last night's episode was unneeded proof that Spike has the best dialog of any television character.
"You didn't save the world from Ecathala - Buffy killed you. And I helped her, so that one's mine, too."
But Angel has some good lines when he's not moping, too.
"Why's she attracted to some immortal shadowey figure who's half good, half evil anyway?"
Dagonee
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I thought it was something like "why is she attracted to a centeries old guy with an evil history and may or may not be on the side of evil?"?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Probably - it was last night. But it was still funny.
Dagonee
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
How much of a time gap was there between BtVS when Wesley left, and Angel when Wesley appeared? I think that the experiences and humiliation Wesley endured tend to make one crack or grow up real fast.
Still, he's not my favorite character, and Zalmoxis and Dagonee are right-his changes were largely predictable. And I think Gunn is more compelling, too-just much murkier and more human. Also, he didn't start out as a buffoon.
Last night's was funny, and I thought the Illyria / Fred switchoff was done pretty well on the part of the actress. Quite creepy.
And the convertible / moped chase scene was great. And has anyone ever seen the Immortal (Ricardo)? Or is he just always the better-at-everything nemesis?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Haven't even heard of him before. Did we get to see who played him?
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
My wife was thinking it would be great if it turned out to be the Highlander.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
*snort* That would kick ass.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But Angel or Spike could kick his ass easily. I mean, sure, he has to be beheaded to die, but he doesn't really have superhuman strength, does he? Just lot's of time to practice with his katana.
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
When he became "the one", didn't he get something - the power to read minds or something?
And I agree, the switch between Fred and Illyria was creepy. She did that well.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Unless they found a way to ressurect Rudolph Valentino, I think any version of the Immortal they show would never live up to the hype. I bet they he never appears onscreen. He'll be one of those character's like Norm's wife or Nile's wife [hey, at least it's a guy this time].
And: Omigosh! We got to see the back of Buffy's head *again*. That was soooo exciting! Maybe we'll get to see her forehead or an earlobe for the finale.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
Really? I thought they were only showing the back of her head because they couldn't get SMG on the show.
Edit: tunned up sarcasmeter to Zal's request.
[ May 06, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
So, does anyone else think the "I can no longer hear the song of the green" line is in reference to the alvin maker series?
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
I don't know how common "the song of the green" theme is. Did it first appear in the AM series? Where did OSC get it from or was it his original idea? It seems like it could have come from someplace else, like common Native American folklore, even if my strongest association with that phrase springs from Red Prophet...
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
I just realized, I have missed almost every episode, if I havenm't actually missed every episode of this season. Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Psssst, MEC. Turn on your sarcasm meter.
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I will be sad to see it go. I think Amy Acker (fred) has done a great job. Particularly in the last episode where she had to change back and forth between good and bad.
Angel and Spike are very funny together.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
OK, tonight's the night. After this, no more Buffyverse anywhere except reruns.
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
What happened to Giles having his own show called "Ripper"?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:It has been nearly a year since the Buffy the Vampire Slayer series finale and now Angel is about to end its run as well. By the looks of things, Ripper will never happen and neither will any Buffy spin-off for that matter. Anthony Steward Head has not been approached in regards to doing this show so it is highly doubtful that it will ever happen.
Oh well, I wasn't that excited for it anyway.
I really thought they'd manage to at least pull in Willow for one of the last episodes. She's married to Wesley after all.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Okay, so the earlobe is probably asking for too much -- how about an elbow.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
quote:She's married to Wesley after all.
Holy crap! That blows me away.
Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
Lol!
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
40 minutes until the final episode. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's not even a 2 hour episode. Damn WB!
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
*sniffle*
No extras, either.
I hate WB.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Should the series finale really be about killing a group we heard about for the first time last week?
Edit: Poetry slam Spike was pretty good - I forgot William was a frustrated poet.
Dagonee
[ May 19, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*groan* Why do they have to end that show? Here I was just starting to really like it too. WB sucks. They should be called LTESIL.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
nice freakin ending.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ambivalent about the ending. On the one hand, it is pretty cool. On the other hand - ARRRRRRRRRGGGH!
SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER
And why'd they have to kill Wesley!
Dagonee
Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
I really wish they could have gone with the next season or at least added and ep. to do a real ending o well to late now. Mabey Joss will get to make a mini series or something for another brodcast company or get picked up by upn or fox(but thats probly hopeing for to much).*crosses fingers*
[ May 19, 2004, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: The Wiggin ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
SPOILER!
While I don't like that they killed Wesley, I can't think of anyone else that I'd rather have died.
And his death scene was GOODE.
"Do you want me to lie to you now?"
Plus, Loren and Lindsey. . . oh freak, didn't see that coming. Very well played. And heartwrenching to see Loren do something he absolutely abhorred.
Good episode. I'm sad it has to end.
[ May 20, 2004, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Having Wesley die set up the teary farewell with Illyria. They've been building to some type of emotional response from her.
Loren and Lyndsay - I didn't see that coming either, but in hindsight, you could see the clues.
Harmoney and Hamilton - of course Angel was playing them. As soon as Hamilton mentioned blood, you knew what would happen next.
I liked the ending. I wonder if he slayed the dragon.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Would have been a bad time for the Shanshu prophecy to take effect, wouldn't it?
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
It's always good to have another vampire with a soul waiting in the wings in case you have to sign away your prophecy rights.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I was thinking, what if an army of slayers had shown up to fight the army of deamons. I mean, why give up an opportunity to slay 50,000 evil deamons. Also, did angel still have Agent Hamilton's Senior Partner's powers, and if he did could they help them survive the fight? But even if they did survive I think gun would have died.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It is a good starting point for a crossover mini-series, isn't it. Army of slayers shows up just as Angel and the others are about to go down, then go after the senior partners themselves. Too predictable for Joss, though.
Dagonee
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I think Angel should have drained Hamilton completely instead of snapping his neck.
Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
I also thought that angel was ganna take on the panther in the white room. Why did they never use that place again after gun fought himself there?
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Well, maybe this is the best place to sneak in the news that Charisma Carpenter has an interview in a certain magazine that is now on the stands.
Uh, oh yeah...
There are some photos too...
So I hear.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Umm...I would never look at such things. Honestly. But I bet they have a good in-depth interview, so maybe I should pick it up anyway.
Dagonee
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Absolutely, Dag!
Can't pass up a good interview, can you?
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Oh yeah, that completely blew away the Buffy finale.
And as much as I love the Buffyverse, I hope there is no tv movie for Angel; the finale was just too perfect. Too much happened; if there's a tv movie in which Angel becomes human, I'll be spitting mad.
I loved that moment. When Angel signed away the prophecy. I just sat there thinking "damn damn damn" to myself. It was gut wrenching. And he did it without hesitation.
I don't believe I've ever seen heroes sacrifice so much in the name of the battle. Angel signed away his soul and murdered a good man. Lorne basically did the same. This wasn't some been-there, done-that final sacrifice for the hero to make, like Spike "dying" in Buffy's finale was. I wasn't sure if Angel would become human by the end, but I sure as hell didn't expect him to lose all hope so... so casually. If they reverse that in a tv movie, I'll feel ripped off.
Lorne's scene was heartbreaking, totally unexpected. It really did seem that Lindsey was starting to change his mind about the whole evil thing. Scary to have him knocked off like that.
So was Eve's last seen, for that matter. No longer the bratty character she was at the start of this season.
Wesley's death... Ill made the scene. Ouch.
My initial reaction to the final scene was disgust, but I changed my mind after about 30 seconds of thought. I think that it was just about the best last scene for any series that I can think of.
I don't want there to be a tv movie in which we find out that Team Angel beat the demonic army and Angel gets humanity. I'll feel really, really cheated.
Posted by Marek (Member # 5404) on :
I think maybe they should have let Lindsey live. As they pointed out, he was clearly a master swordsman, they could have used him against the demon armies, and it isn't like anyone was leaving that alley alive anyway.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Came across this excerpt of an interview with Joss Wheedon in the Boston Herald - published yesterday:
quote:``The pain of loss that I felt when (WB) canceled the show I'm going to share,'' series creator Joss Whedon said in a recent telephone interview.
Whedon revealed that at least one character depicted in the opening credits will die tonight.
How did Whedon decide who would take the fall?
``Where can I twist the knife? How do I make a statement and where can I find my pain? Where's the most beauty, where's the most theme and where's the most pain?'' he said. ``In `Buffy (the Vampire Slayer),' I had restrictions on who I could kill because I had to go out on a happy ending. I couldn't kill the core Scoobies. I couldn't kill Dawn. . . . `Angel' is telling a darker tale, so I have more license to do what I wanted.''
Wheedon confirming once again that he operates from sadistic tendencies with his audience.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Foust's analysis is correct. More later.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
SPOILER SPOILER
My disappointment with the ending stems solely from the fact that I wanted to see Angel kill the dragon - or vice-versa.
Someone as flamable as a charcoal briquette stacked in lighter fluid might not be the best choice to fight a dragon...
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Yes, spoilers.
And this is way late and not as polished as I'd like. But here's my analysis of the finale.
----- After the series finale of Angel, I thought that I was going to be writing a defense of the Manachean ending -- the forces of good poised to battle evil. But as I've thought about it, I've realized the ending isn't all that Manachean after all, despite the icon pose of four heroes weapons in hand staring down a rushing flood of demon warriors.
First, it's not as simple as good vs. evil because all the heroes are deeply scarred and not wholly pure.
Gunn has never fully recovered from his role in the revenge killing of the professor who sent Fred to the demon dimension. Sure, he didn't strike a fatal blow, but he was the one who pushed the man into the portal where he would be transported to a place where he wouldn't survive for long. And then, of course, in his attempt to retain the power boost to his brain, he signed the papers that set up the events that led to Fred's body being taken over by the demon Ilyria.
Fred herself is not quite as pure as the image she projects. Although Gunn gave the final push, Fred was the one who was out for blood and is most responsible for the whole professor thing. Of course, Fred is no longer Fred. She's already gone, her body now the vessel for Ilyria -- Ilyria who shows up for the final battle filled with grief for Westley, a demon finally affected by the vestigal humanity of her vessel, willing to stand and fight with the others Fred loved even though it's not really her battle. [BTW, is anyone else struck by how embodiment is such a constant theme in this series?]
Westley betrayed his best friend. Seduced by a (false) prophecy, he took Angel's infant son and delivered him to Holz. And then there's all the murky stuff after that -- forming a relationship with Lila, keeping Justine (?) locked up in a closet [so he could rescue Angel, but still…]. In fact, Westley's tragic flaw is that he thinks in stark, Manachean terms. It started with his failure with Faith, and despite how 'dark' he became, the flaw remained with him -- thus Connor, thus his leading role in doubting Angel this season, etc. This, I think, is part of the reason he was the one who died before the final fight [and the why the whole 'lie to me now' is so poignant]. He doesn't quite fit with the others.
Neither does Lorne. Which is why he isn't there. A compassionate, sensitive demon with a distaste for violence. I've never hear a silencer sound so mournful.
Finally we have the twin paradoxes -- Angel and Spike. The vampires with a soul. Angelus, one of the greatest mass murders the world has ever known and William, the bloody. Sure they are champions. But the demon is never far away with them. Angel is there to finish the fight that began when he fled Buffy's arms for LA. Spike -- he's living on borrow time anyway.
It's tempting to think that Angel has gone fey -- itching to battle to the end because he has given way his incentive to live [to life]. And yet the Shanshu prophecy was never what it was *really* all about. Sure, Angel would have liked to be fully human again. But his core motivation has always been redemption -- atoning for Angelus's bloody deeds.
And here we get to the second reason why it's not some simple Manachean struggle. It's not some ultimate, almost abstract, good vs. evil thing. It's much more human than that. From the beginning Angel and co. have been about freeing people -- individual humans -- from demonic influences. Slaying the demon, vampire or whatever so people can get back to their 'normal' lives. Angel reminds us in his stirring speech in the offices of Wolfram and Hart that you can't ultimately erase evil -- you can only slow it down, throw a wrench in the works. It may mow you down, but you still win by standing against it because in choosing to stand you assert what humanity is all about -- making choices.
Through five seasons Angel and co. have fought to create a city where individuals have the space, the room to choose their own fate, unterrorized by evil. The final fight at the end isn't some crazy suicide mission engaged in by world-weary individuals who have nothing left to lose. It's the final chapter of the battle they've been fighting. It's what they've been doing since the beginning -- writ large.
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
Zal, totally agree with your point. I hate to be nitpicky, but I just wanted to clear this one thing up:
quote:Sure, he didn't strike a fatal blow, but he was the one who pushed the man into the portal where he would be transported to a place where he wouldn't survive for long.
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Gunn snap the professor's neck before shoving him into the portal? Certainly seems like a fatal blow to me.
And just to add to your point about Gunn, I think he was also fighting with the fact that he wasn't able to safe Fred from killing the professor. Even though he did the deed, she still felt responsible, and so Gunn felt he lost her because of that.
Then, of course, the brain charge and Ilyria stuff, hehe.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Wesley kept who locked in a closet? Did I miss that much of the series?
Dagonee
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
ya, Fred was just going to let him take a tumble into Pylia, Gunn snapped his neck first
And Wesley kept that woman who worked with Holt locked up...though to be fair, she had slit his throat previously.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ahhh. Missed that part. She deserved it, though.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Right on, Zalmoxis.
A pox on the WB.
Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
quote:And yet the Shanshu prophecy was never what it was *really* all about. Sure, Angel would have liked to be fully human again. But his core motivation has always been redemption -- atoning for Angelus's bloody deeds.
I think, by then last episode, Angel's fight is no longer about redemption. He's moved past all selfish motives, and is fighting the good fight because it's the right thing to do.
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Javert and Lupus:
Thanks, I forgot about that. I've only seen that episode once. Now things make more sense about how dark his and Fred's relationship became.
Jill:
Sure.
But to tease this out a little more -- I would argue that what brought him to this point was his need for redemption. And I don't see that need as a selfish thing. In fact, he's made it clear that doing good doesn't erase all the blood. Every good doesn't somehow make him incrementally a 'better' person or cancel out one of his murders. What it does do, however, is make a person's life better.
My point is that the prophecy gave him a selfish motive [and notice that it's origin is the vaults of Wolfram and Hart -- as dubious a source as there ever was] to be the champion. And it was an incentive that he had no problem signing away.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I just saw the last episode of Angel again, and it really was very good. If they ever do a movie or miniseries, I hope they start it right where this left off.
Maybe have the slayers show up. Cheesy, but it'd be Buffy cheesy.
Dagonee
Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
I still wish that Wes had not died. I really liked that character
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Me too. And we don't know if Gunn will die or not.
I'd like to see a Watcher turned into a Vampire - he could really wreak havoc. Wesley would have been perfect. Now it will have to be Giles.
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
I'd rather see a Slayer turned Vampire....
I really don't know why they never did that on Buffy. It would be a horrible and terrifying fun-house mirror for Buffy to look into.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If the slayer got vampire strength on top of slayer strength, that would be frightening.
But I've always liked vampires as controlling super villians, not just fighters. And either Giles or Wesley would be frighteningly good at that.
Or Witch Willow Vampire, but I don't see how they would beat her. Posted by JonnyNotSoBravo (Member # 5715) on :
Or the way she looked in that red leather! MeeeOW!
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Wow. My analysis rocks. Somebody should pay me for this stuff. .
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
I just finished the last episode of Angel... I know, I know I am behind the times . I would love to see a Spike/Illyria spin-off.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Actually, we have seen a...well, um, a Slayer Vampire--once. First season Buffy, in the episode where the little kid is causing nightmares to become real. Finding out that one of Buffy's nightmares is being buried alive, and that another is of being turned, gives new meaning to the events of season six. (First she wakes up in a grave; then she fears that she has come back "wrong"--and what, exactly, is the most common form of that in the Buffyverse?)
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Dagonee - you should go rewatch the series where Welsey has Justine locked up (series 3? 4? ).
It contains one of Wesley's meanest and greatest lines. Makes you shiver because he's being so crazy-evil.
"I'll take away your bucket"...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I haven't seen that arc at all. I need to watch my DVDs sometime.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
Go! Watch! Relive the glorious days when Welsey was still alive!
(I cried in the last episode. Stupid tear-jerking misery-causing Joss. )
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Yes, the Wesley alienation story arc is probably my favorite part of Angel. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've only caught the part where he actually takes Connor - nothing leading up to it - through Angel trying to smother him.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
This bit is after he takes Connor - I can't really tell you any more because of spoilerage.
You really really should watch it.
Just sayin'.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I've always thought that Giles and Wes would make kick-ass vampires. They're both dangerous in that lure you in and make you trust them sort of way.
maybe that's what being a watcher is all about.
Ni!
Posted by The Pixiest (Member # 1863) on :
Mabus: What I meant was a season Big Bad being a former slayer now Vampire. And the fact that Buffy had dreamed it would make the situation all the more powerful.
Plus you could have the "You think you know what a slayer is.... You have no idea..." speech.
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[The Wave]](graemlins/thewave.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Really? I thought they were only showing the back of her head because they couldn't get SMG on the show. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)