I agreed with OSC on something! *giggles* I should probably mark it on the calendar and celebrate it as a holiday. I'm referring to this article (the Sexism part):
Seriously, I'm usually puzzled by his taste in movies, and generally avoid the political discussions (When people ask me if I'm conservative or liberal, or Democrat/Republican, I usually describe my political leanings by sticking my fingers in my ears and humming. I mean, I take WAAAAAY too long just to pick out shampoo. I try to become reasonably informed before elections. I vote. Then I spend the rest of time praying that JackAss A will screw with my life less than Jackass B. Sort of like the psychological phenomenon known as Learned Helplessness translated to politica terms. But I digress. )
Men can't win. They can't. Someone will be pissed at them whatever they do. I'll quote to make this easier...
quote: On E.R. last Thursday the writers ruined an otherwise pretty good episode, because you know what? I have a hard time enjoying mean-spirited male-bashing.
It came along with a double standard so egregious that even the most deliberately-blind politically correct ideologue would have to admit that I'm right about this.
You see, there's this group of Catholic school girls who chase after a flasher who always runs off before the police can get there. They beat him up and he winds up in the hospital -- at the same time as one of the girls who pounded on him.
In another plotline, a pervert hits on Sherry Stringfield's character. It seems he has a thing about hugging pregnant women. When her boyfriend (naturally, this being the zero decade -- the zips -- they aren't married or even engaged) comes out of the restroom and the pervert persists, the boyfriend decks him.
Naturally, the Catholic girls are heroes for beating up a pervert -- in fact, the writers loved their actions so much they got to do it again before the end of the show. But the boyfriend was a typical idiotic male lout for hitting the guy. Sure, he thought he was protecting her (rather the way the Catholic girls had wanted the police to protect them), but because the pervert threatened to sue, the only way to pacify him was to let him hug Stringfield.
So all the women in the E.R., including Stringfield, blamed him for the fact that she "had" to give in to the pervert's demand. And the writers had him tag along after her, whining for forgiveness, completely humiliated. "Baby, please, I am sorry. Listen, please, come on, don't be like that. Who knew that guy was such a wack?"
And as they go out the door, still begging, he says, "How does a guy like that get to be such a freak?"
"Born with a Y chromosome?" answers Stringfield.
"Oh, so all men are twisted?"
"You said it."
"You hate men?"
"If it weren't for sperm and heavy lifting, you'd all be useless."
My, how funny.
See what the message is? Women can be as violent as they like, and whatever man they pulverize deserves it. But if a man dares to violently defend the woman who says she loves him, then he's a complete fool. Not only that, the boyfriend is not only blamed for what he did, he is also blamed, as a "man," for what the pervert did.
In fact, it seems that whatever a man does, it's wrong. Unless it's exactly what a woman needed him to guess that she wanted him to do.
Truth be told, I DID laugh when I read the "sperm and heavy lifting" remark. I know that to a lot of women, that sort of thing is funny because it seems true. It doesn't seem true to me in my experience, but I still found myself amused by it.
That really scares me, because I have SONS-- two sweet little boys who love me and their daddy and each other (despite the odd bedtime mooning, or the like). These are sensitive kids who get a lot of 'girl power' messages in the media, even though we don't have cable or watch TV (other than PBS or the occassional WB cartoon) unless we are visiting relatives or something.
Why is it that some women want to paint all men as brutes? Nature made them bigger and stronger, not just so women could ogle them but so they could defend and protect their families. That's the way things should be, IMO.
I have nothing against women being able to protect themselves. I just started kickboxing, and I love it. I like to see stories where femmes kick butt-- I was a Buffy fan, and I'd even sneak to watch Charlies Angels or Wonder Woman as a kid.
But that doesn't mean that men shouldn't be men. Yes, some men are unnecessarily violent, some men are rapists or murderers. But a REAL man-- like my wonderful Ron-- use their size and strength to defend the weak, protect their families and store their favorite snacks on the top shelf where no one else can reach them. The occassional heavy lifting or yardwork is a plus, but in no way a measure of their manhood.
When society shows kids crap like that bit on ER, what can it do but make boys defensive, and angry? Why can't men and women value each other for their strengths, instead of mocking percieved deficiencies? If we work together, we compliment each other so well.
It's unfair to the kind, strong men out there who really are good men, and it is also unfair to the next generation of men and women. The temptation is there (I felt it when I was still a sweet young thang) for girls to treat boys like a lifestyle accessory instead of a potential partner in life. It's just so twisted and insidious.
And it really pisses me off.
Some of you have read some of the novel I'm working on, but this kind of thing is central to the frustrations that prompted me to start the story. Such casual sexism only leads BOTH sides into underestimating the other half of the world's population.
I want to know what you guys think. Have you ever faced sexism like that (men or women)?
Once back in college, this idiot I knew (WenchCon I attendees may remember my E. Roy stories) was going on and on about calling the Civil War the War Between the States or not. Now, he obviously had a very thin grasp of the debate, having read a few articles on the subject. That is the sort of potato potahto argument that has always really annoyed me. I was always much mor interested in the details of history (or literature, even) than the labels people come up with to stick on them. Yes, I understood the implications of the different titles, but to me the bruhaha only served to continue the hostilities it described (certainly in a small way, but a continuation nonetheless).
So I finally called him on it, basically saying the same thing I just wrote. He reponded, "Well, what would you like to talk about, Olivia? Buy anything interesting at the store today?"
People laughed!! I couldn't believe it. I was a frugal girl. I hadn't done any 'shopping' in the girly-girl sense in my life. But I was pretty and perky-looking and active socially, so I must be a mall-stomping pinhead. Gggggrrrrrrr! I got the last laugh when they posted the names of all the 4.0's that first semester, though. I was on it, and Eroy was on academic probation.
Anyone else want to comment, share a story or just vent?
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Funny how this really hits home when you're Mom to a boy.
That thing you said in the other thread about how single moms of boys tend to get married oftener than single moms of girls... That felt true. I know that part of my eagerness to get remarried was so my son could have a good male rolemodel. It takes all my energy to be a good woman, so I don't even pretend to be a good man. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I absolutely agree. And I could've written this (well, except in the future/present tense, not past):
quote: I know that part of my eagerness to get remarried was so my son could have a good male rolemodel.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
You know, this kind of thing is one of the reasons I get very upset with my mom and, by extension, many self-identified feminists. See, I think of myself as a feminist, because I believe that women are equal and deserve equal rights, and I conduct my life accordingly. I probably get this attitude from my mom, who is a very strong woman and managed to do a good job raising me and my brother alone while still owning and operating her own business. But very often I feel like her attitudes are extremely anti-male and the older I get the more this bothers me.
I understand where it comes from, because I know that she has had a lot of obstacles as a woman who owns a business. She has told me several times about how hard it was for her to get her first business loan, despite the fact that she is very good at what she does (and she is). I can understand how this would cause a certain amount of bitterness. And I don't believe that even today women really are on an equal footing with men, although I do think things are getting better. But what she and, in my opinion, rather a lot of "feminists" fail to internalize, to really believe and live, is that advancing your own cause is not the same as antagonizing the opposing side. Making it about "sides" in the first place is just not the right way to go.
This is one of my hot button issues, if you couldn't guess.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I agree with saxon75, and it's one of the main benefits of hatrack in my opinion, that we can hang out with folks and most the time it doesn't matter what gender they are.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Bull. Men in general suck. There are a few men, who as individuals, don't suck.
But Card makes it seem like everyone is bashing men all the time. I'd love to see a study where they compare/contrast the usage of bashing men vs. the usage of objectifying women/or making female cliché jokes.
Oh, and by the way, Sherry Stringfield's character married the guy in Vegas. When they got back, they got divorced and kept dating.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I don't think all men suck. There's the same variations in character as there are among all humans. I think male-bashing comes from a sense of vulnerability, and/or really, really crappy experiences.
But...
quote: I'd love to see a study where they compare/contrast the usage of bashing men vs. the usage of objectifying women/or making female cliché jokes.
I agree with this completely. There's too much of both.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
If I recall correctly, Kayla, you're an equal opportunity hater, no? So why spare the women the glory of your scorn? Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Please tell me you did not really mean "Men in general suck." I'd really like to retain some respect for you.
Dagonee
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:I agree with this completely. There's too much of both.
kat, I think her point was that the amount of male-bashing would be way smaller than the amount of female objectification/cliche jokes, and (if I may extrapolate a bit) that therefore it's not significant. I have no data on the relative amounts, but I have noticed that TV commercials tend to portray men as incompetent or stupid at least as often as they portray women as sex objects.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I don't like male bashing any better than female bashing. To me both kinds of bashing denigrate both sexes.
Tv is often like that, though. It's often really offensive. I'm so much happier since I stopped watching it. Have I said that before? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
The War of the Sexes will never be won because there is too much fraternizing with the Enemy.
(That may be a quote, but I don't know where from.)
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*insert <beat> or <pause> or "I think" in between the last two sentences of my last post*
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Oh, don't get me wrong. Women, in general, suck, too.
I'm nothing if not equal opportunity.
And, I'd like to say for the record that I absolutely hate Everybody Loves Raymond. That show is nothing more than, "What idiotic thing did Raymond do this week?" Male bashing isn't cool. But men whining about being bashed is pathetic, too. It's that whole double standard I can't stand. They can dish it out for several millennia, but they can't take it for a couple of decades.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hmmm. Where are these people that have been doing anything for a couple millenia? I wasn't aware lifespans had shortened so much.
Dagonee
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I hate that show, Kayla! It gets on my nerves. See, television is what sucks. It simplifies things. People are complicated! There's a whole spectrum of people out there! Burly men, butchy women, girly looking women who hate shopping, femmy men who love to shop. All types! But on most sitcoms you get stupid incompetent men like Raymond who won't spend time with their kids and their shrill wives whine constantly and say, "When will you fix this, that and the other, what are you doing hanging out with that girl? You never clean up after yourself." Which makes it seem like women are ANNOYING nagging, shrill obnoxious STREWS! Like that woman on Whatever that show is called with the fat guy and the skinny chick and the guy who's always yelling. She's a major irratating female dog! And her husband is dopey... Most men on television swing beer, watch sports for hours upon end and act like jackasses. Most women nag the men for sitting on the couch watching sports and drinking beer. It's television, it has NOTHING to do with real life. With real women and men. I'm TIRED of stereotypes. I don't even fit them. I hate shopping, I wear sloggy clothes. I PLAY VIDEO GAMES for crying out loud. Women on television NEVER play video games. They complain at the men about playing video games.
You have to admit that some of the complaining about men's antics (some men, not all!) is not so much as bashing, it's true. A lot of men, too many men act like brutish idiots thinking that THIS is what it means to be a man. Like on the Sopranos. Does Tony skank and cheat because all the men around him skank and cheat? Because he wants to prove that he is a man? Do men even HAVE to prove that? It's pretty obvious...
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
My little brother is my reminder of how great guys can be. He's so cool. I'm going to get him to start posting in the forum so he can read this.
Hey, Bud Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
You know, two shows that stand out in my mind are Yes, Dear and Still Standing. (BTW, Syn, the show you are thinking of is King of Queens.) On Yes, Dear, rather than it being nagging, shrill wife and dopey husbands, it's one dopey couple and one nagging couple. Both the women and the men screw up, both couples love their kids, both couples are occasionally right. It's a pretty balanced show. Still Standing has a dopey husband, and a nagging wife, but they admit that they are dopey and nagging and work together. They love their kids, but they aren't quite grow-up themselves. They are good parents, in a bad way.
Anyway, women are bashed at least as much as men, though I believe the women would actually come out on top if a study was done about who is actually bashed more. Women are an easier target because they've always been the target.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
This is true. Women seem to be seen as- Sex objects (I could find a lewder, colourful way to say that) Shrill nagging wives Obnoxious girlfriends
It's just annoying and insulting. Men and women should complain about it. They should say, I'm not going to put up with this anymore.
Like these magazines or Xmas and Mothers and Father's Day ads. Why is it assumed that only MEN like cool machines like MP3 players and Playstation 2s while women just want lacy silky dresses and washing machines? Drives me up a tree...
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Here's another example- TV networks are ALWAYS trying to get the attention of males ages 18-35 thinking that they spend the largest amount of money on beer and gadgets. To try to attract them they put shows with the lowest common denominator on. Shows like The Help or Surreal Life. Now how sexist is this? Assuming that all young men LIKE trashy shows with cheap stupid women and inane plots! Even worse is assuming that women ages 18-35 don't buy gadgets or having spending power. Statistically, women buy more things for their families, right? I could be wrong about that. But why use such stupid tactics to gain audiences? It's so outmoded. They need to get with the program.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
My favorite is any commercial about cleaning a bathroom. Is it ever a man cleaning the toilet? Then not long ago I saw a commercial with a man cleaning a toilet. But I think there was some catch to it. Can't remember.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Yeah, his wife called up and said, "Did you clean the toilet?" And he says, yes dear and uses a disposable toilet brush that foams. You never see men mopping the floor and talking to bald men as they do it.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
What is this 'toilet brush' you speak of?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Come closer, Stormy. I'll show you.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
(rivka get on aim)
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
If it helps, OSC also despises I Love Lucy for the gender bashing as well.
Kayla said:
quote:They can dish it out for several millennia, but they can't take it for a couple of decades.
I don't know about you, but I haven't been around for one millenium, let alone several. Men who are alive now are not responsible for the actions of the men that came before. They are responsible for their actions now, as are we women.
Male bashing is as gender racist and evil as telling a woman she can't be something because she is a girl. I would rather base my behavior on what is good and kind than getting even.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
quote:Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
Given the gazillions of dollars that these advertizers make, I'd say that most of us are falling for it.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I love you Olivia, I just love you.
I agree with just about everything you said, I have a boy too.
But mostly I say I love you because you reminded me of the E. Roy stories, and that is just priceless. Thank you for bringing them back to mind. Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I'm completely on-board on the male-bashing element to our culture, but while I agree that radical feminists bear some of the blame for it, I think OSC is ignoring the biggest source of this feeling, especially in the media (TV) that he's talking about: Housewives.
The worst offenders for the "men can't do anything right and they are just bigger children and whatever women want is the right thing" on TV are sit-coms. Well, and commercials, but I'm sticking with sit-coms. The exemplar for this as far as I'm concerned is Home Improvement, although, from what I've been told, Everybody Loves Raymond is vying for the top spot. Feminists and the sort of career oriented women that people slightly to the right of OSC think are sinning against nature don't watch these shows. Let's face it, feminists are in something like year 60 of their humor strike. The target audience for these shows, the people who love them because of the anti-male stance that they take, are largely women who are either stay-at-home or have jobs that aren't of the fast-track, jet-setting type. You know, the sort of people who tend to be aggressively anti-feminist.
Humor of the sort that turns the powerful figure into a bumbling fool dependent on the subordinate figure has been around as long as one group was holding power over another. American culture has really latched onto it because it sells really well. If you want to really look into the sources of male-bashing on television, yes, feminists have their influence, but I think that of women who are still being oppressed (and I'm not trying to claim that all housewives are oppressed. I'm big into the feminism means choice idea.) by the patriarchal elements of our culture have an even stronger one.
----
Of course, the shows that the yuppies watch aren't exactly overflowing with positive male role models either. NBC hasn't had a man worthy of the name on a sit-com, except maybe the non-flaming gay guy on Will and Grace, ever since Friends taught them that effeminate, bitchy men sell really well.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Um, I like you Mr.Squicky, and you make some valid points I think (though I have not sat through a sitcom other than the Simpsons or Futurama for literally years). But I just have to say, I HATE the term "Housewives". <cringe> I am not married to a @%#! HOUSE!
Plus, I am an educated woman-- I made great money when I was working, but I gave it up so that I could be there for my kids while they were small. It took some time, but I no-longer feel subordinated by that choice. It was our CHOICE, Ron's and mine. We didn't want to pay strangers to raise our kids, and if that meant giving up the biweekly manicures and chi-chi power suits, I'm okay with that, because my kids were more important. Thing is, if I had been happier or more ambitious with my carreer, Ron would probably have been the one to stay home. He wanted to, I think, but I hated my job and he knew I always wanted to write.
Anyway, I resent the stereotype, even though I know there wouldn't be stereotypes and cliches if they weren't true at least SOME of the time.
Belle, Thank you sweetie! I love you , too. How're the toes? I'll try to call you this weekend, okay?
Kayla, Syn, I sympathize completely with what you're saying. I just think the male-bashing only continues the antipathy between the genders. It doesn't help things.
I remember, for the longest time, thinking I was less than a woman because I had less than an A cup (until after the babies and the added poundage). I remember that story of the missionary woman who had prayed and prayed for blue eyes when she was a girl, but then when she was older, she was able to rescue children while wearing a veil, and blue eyes would have given her away as a foriegner.
For years I thought I'd have to impersonate a man at some point in 'God's plan for my life'. Heh. I was pretty. Guys wanted to get to know me or whatever, but I always felt deficient.
But when I had Robert, and breast fed him... It was just so miraculous to realize that my breasts were exactly as they were meant to be, doing what they were meant to do. (And Ron had always found them fascinating, though I had convinced myself his attentions were only construed to make me feel better. LOL. I was wrong. But I don't want to slip into TMI territory. )
I would love to live in a world where breasts are exalted for the pleasure and nourishment they give, and for the wonderful variety of shapes and sizes they come in. I hate to see something so beautiful depicted as a narrow ideal and plastered over bilboards to sell beer.
But I would also like to live in a world where young boys have some decent role models in popular culture. I don't see much TV, but I do rent some shows on DVD, so I have seen maybe the first 8 shows of the first season of Smallville. I think that the young Superman and his friends show the decency that I would like my sons to imitate. Standing up for the fat girl when somebody teases her, acting unselfishly to protect and rescue even those who are mean to them. (And Lex Luthor is really hot )
It's one reason I let my boys watch Princess Mononoke, even though it has violence and blood-- because Ashitaka uses his strength to help people, and his intellect to try to bring two sides of the conflict together. To see with eyes unclouded. I WANT my boys to admire Ashitaka.
I would like to live in a world where people are valued for their strengths, not dismissed as "Isn't that just like a man (or woman)!"
That said, Ron, the boys and I had a fun time at the zoo trying to figure out which Panda was the male. The boys assumed it was the one who scratched its butt for five minutes straight (and turned out they were right). Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
a) I agree with what you said about breasts. I think it is unfair that when it gets hot (in this culture) women still have to cover them up while men can run around topless. But that is the CA nudist coming out in me.
b)This is why we pretty much only watch Bravo, the BBC, the home improvement, history and discovery channels and sports on TV anymore.
Give me my Keen Eddie or else!
AJ
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I conditionally endorse your nudist statements, BannaOj Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
AnnaJo, you'd love Ontario. Equal top frontal nudity rights for all. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yeah but isn't it even colder there in the winter than Chicago? I'm barely making it through the winters here. I'm actually wondering if I have SADD or something.
AJ
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Jeff:
However, running around topless would...um...hurt.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
I've been thinking about building a light-box via Home Depot.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Then just walk it off Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Students Against Drunk Driving?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Walk them off!?
(CT...email?)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I meant walk off the pain, dork ;P
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
You know, not nearly enough women take advantage of the equal opportunity topless laws. It gets pretty hot and really humid in southern ontario, lord knows I spend much of my time with my shirt off (much to the horror and chagrin of all, I'm sure). I just don't want all those poor women to suffer needlessly!
<-- Philanthropist
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Commercials are among the most un-PC things on televison. I guess the advertisers believe in the stereotypes, because they believe that's what sells.
quote:Assuming that all young men LIKE trashy shows with cheap stupid women and inane plots! Even worse is assuming that women ages 18-35 don't buy gadgets or having spending power.
There's a real chicken-and-egg problem here. On the one hand there's a very valid argument that things like commercials and product marketing shapes our cultural tendencies. That is, men are told they are supposed to like beer and gadgets and women are told they are supposed to like clothes and things for the home, and so both do.
The problem is that marketing is based on market research. Companies spend millions of dollars to try to find out who will buy their product before telling the advertising people how to make the commercials. Beer and gadget commercials are geared toward men because market research shows very conclusively that the overwhelming majority of beer and gadgetry is consumed by men. Moreover, the style of advertisement and the shows in which they are placed are also determined by market research. The Nielson company makes tons of money finding out who watches what shows. This is the driving force behind television: the demographics of the audience. So if commercials aimed at men are put in "trashy" shows, it's because it's been shown that lots of men watch those programs.
So, we are shaped by our media, but our media is shaped by us. It's quite the vicious cycle.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Seasonal Affective Disorder, I think. Something like that, but I don't know what the other D is for. Seasonal Affective Deppressive Disorder?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Seasonal something depressive disorder.... ok mack what's the right ackronym then since I'm sure you know!
It's not so much that I'm mentally depressed is that physically my energy levels drop like in hibernation. And I'm always cold, to the point where I'm the butt of jokes at work. But I am that cold. Normally just putting my cold hand on somone's arm is enough to make them jump. I can't very well apologize for something that is just me.
AJ
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
mack, I will try to email later, but about 1/2 an hour ago, I took two Benedryl and a Premarin in attempt to induce sleep, as I have a solid screaming Friday night at the ER ahead.
The antihistamines are working, and I don't think I'll make it upt he stairs. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Mack is such a smarty pants Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:Yeah but isn't it even colder there in the winter than Chicago?
According to USA Today (temps in °F) and this page (temps in °C), the avg temp in January in Toronto is between 30.2 °F and 15.8 °F, while the avg temp in January in Chicago is between 29 °F and 15 °F.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Banna, I’ve always seen it as SAD – Seasonal Affective Disorder. And mine pretty much went away after I got a Sunrise alarm clock. Marvelous device – the lamp starts fading up ½ hour before the alarm goes off, so when it does beep your room is at full brightness and your body thinks it’s morning, even when the real sun isn’t due for another three hours (or isn’t planning on making an appearance at all). Full spectrum lighting helps too.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder).
I was just poking fun at AJ. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Regarding misandry:
There are few things that are more offensive to me than women talking about how "men are dogs" but then turn to the male friend in the room and say "I don't mean you." Do you mean it, or not? It seems like the only reason they think all men are dogs is because they had the extreme misfortune to pair up with dog after dog, while leaving out the "good guy" as a friend.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yeah, friend I had major crush on in high school and college once said, "Why can't I find someone like you?"
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Because, unfortunately, many women think bad or dumb guys are cool, and then are completely shocked when they get mistreated.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Here is an area which seems overripe for cognitive behavioral therapy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's a well-known fact that "nice" men often wind up being cast as the best friend -- an undateable but reliable guy who'll tag along and never be critical. It's remarkably safe for the woman, at least until the guy gets all unhealthy and passive-aggressive about it.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I think there's a element of attraction to "bad" guys, but I think alot of it also stems from most guys who complain about being a "good" guy and not getting women because of it lack confidence. I've known plenty of respectful guys who have no problem getting women. The thing is, their respect comes out of their confidence and is not covering up for it's lack. Of course, there's also the issue of who you're trying to get. There are a significant number of women out there who are attracted to guys who mistreat them.
Olivetta, I think you may have missed the part where I put in a disclaimer about respecting housew...I mean stay at home wives (or husbands) who choose to stay at home. Even if I didn't understand (and in the cases of kids wholeheartedly endorse) this choice, it would still not be my place to criticize another person's freely made choice. The problem is that there are still so many women who think that this role is the only choice that they can have. I was specifically talking about them.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
But it's my problem (or good luck) that has me always fall in love with my male best friends. Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
There was a time in my life that I was not interested in dating anybody, so I stopped trying to be "nice". I was obnoxious, and somewhat of a jerk, because I just didn't care what anybody thought.
Much to my surprise, women were *much* more attracted to me during this period than when I was trying to attract women. The inappropriate lesson that I leared was "women like jerks". Learning this "lesson" did not help me as a person. But I still think there is some truth to it.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
This is only somewhat related, but will someone please explain the whole bumbling fat guy/hot skinny wife combo that seems to show up so often in sitcoms?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hey, don't knock it. I'll be half of one of those marriages come July. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tom I think the "nice" "best friend" label gets attached to women as well. Generally the non-bitchy ones end up with the "nice-best friend" label while the "nice" guys tend to go for the prima-donna princess-bitch variety.
It makes no sense.
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
(Obligatory joke warning)
Dag, I had no idea you were a hot woman.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Edit: Id've gotten that one.
[ April 16, 2004, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm going to have to back up Banna's post.
Much to my, uh, chagrin.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Well, I see guys who walk around drooling after the princess girls, but at least they were smart enough to actually date and marry the nice and smart ones.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I never get that... King of Queens is such an annoying show, but slowly I'm learning to stop watching these irratating shows. Because if I complain about it, especially to a certain person she will say, "Don't watch them." And so will another certain person. But sadly, I am an idiot and a cultural critic. But it's really just frustrating. The Help, for instance is just... trashy and horrible. I wish these people would STOP making these sort of shows...
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*laugh* Somehow, everything works out.
[ April 16, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
As far as girls liking jerks: I think we're attracted mostly to confidence. Everybody is attracted to confidence. And there's a very fine line between being confident and self-assured and being horribly arrogant. My therapist and I had very long discussions on this subject.
Aside from that, a lot of women learn early on that "nice guys" turn into puppy-dog barnacles that attatch themselves to your ankle and don't let go.
I suspect it's probably the same with men liking bitchy girls.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Yeah, I really should make it a point to stop prying onto their ankles like that, I'm sure I get pretty heavy after awhile.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
btw I apologize using the word "bitch" if people find it offensive but I don't know what other word to use to describe it.
And after owning an unspayed female dog, I can assure you that the word's meaning really hasn't changed much.
AJ
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
"Bitch" means female dog! That always makes me laugh!!!
Speaking of Bitch, why are so many women on television so BITCHY and obnoxious? How is that interesting? Gah. I got to stop spending so much time complaining about television... There are other things I could do like read Seduced by Moonlight or play video games.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Synesthesia ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Grin, and being that I'm into showing dogs, one of the nicest complements I'm getting on one of them is.
"Man that bitch can move!"
Which she can. She flys at a trot around the ring at a speed when most dogs are at a gallop. She gets to set the pace of trotting that Jake has to keep up with when they are exercising.
AJ
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I just don't like the term bitch, even when you're using it with dogs. It's just so...bleh...
What do you call a male dog, anyway? Don't you just call them 'a dog'? Stud? Bana, fill me in.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I mean, you don't call female cats bitches, and you can communicate with people about the specific gender of your cat without refering it as a bitch. What's the point?
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:You don't call female cats bitches.
That's because a female cat is called a dam.
And yeah, apparently, a male dog is just a dog.
[ April 16, 2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think it is like cows in a way. Cows are one of the few that we commonly call the entire species by the female gender rather than the male. Even though technically you've got cows, bulls and steers that all belong to the Bovine species.
In a similar way dogs and bitches are both members of the Canine species but we commonly call them both "dogs".
But the AKC went with technically correct definition back a century ago when they started and that is why it hasn't changed. In the dog breeding community it is very common to use the terms only gender specifically.
AJ
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
dkw -- that is *PERFECT* That exactly expalains what I was talking about in my life. Thank you.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's just unnecessary insulting to the dog and it grates on the ears. I just don't see the purpose.
JB, I never knew that was specific to female cats. Interesting. Thanks. I know it's a general term for mother, though.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Yup. Cats are either toms or dams (I think).
Oops. Maybe I'm wrong. I think a dam is not just a female, but a mother (so that it parallels the term "sire").
[ April 16, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Jon Boy ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I thought they called female cats queens... they did it in the book I read called You and Your Cat. Heifer is another funny word. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Stud dog means something very specific kind of similar to what Stud means in horses.
If you have a horse standing "at stud" or a "stud dog" it generally means something more specific then that they are unneutered (kwisni correct me if I'm wrong about horses.) Any unneutered dog can father a litter.
When a dog is a "Stud dog" it generally means that the owners feel the animal is a quality enough animal that it can contribute significantly to the breed. Generally the dog will have been shown extensively and done a significant amount of winning. (though "extensive" and "significant" are deliberately relative terms since it is a subjective opinion) And the owner is willing to have it bred to bitches outside their own kennels... for a fee.
If the "stud dog" is of high enough quality he can drastically influence the breed for good. Though sometimes a dog simply becomes popular with breeders overlooking his bad traits. And then the breed suffers as a result. The success of a "stud dog" is dependent on the quality of the genes he passes on, as well as the quality of the bitches he is bred to and how popular he becomes so that people want to use him with their bitches to begin with.
The "stud fees" vary by how much the dog has won, breed popularity etc. Right now I have a friend with a doberman that has a stud fee of $10,000 per female bred. In cardigan corgis the stud fee would on the highest end likely be around 2K and often not even that much but instead you ask for a stud fee puppy if you like the breeding.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I can't see that it is insulting to the animal, when the word is being used in its original context. Most people these days have their pets spayed or neutered a practice which I strongly support.
However until you see an un-neutered female reigning supreme in her pack and keeping the males in line you can't possibly fully understand why the word "bitch" got applied to humans with the connotation it did.
AJ
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Ther's also the issue of who and why you're selecting someone.
"Oh, why doesn't she see how kind and smart and sensitive I am? She just doesn't like nice guys."
"Hey, dude why are you interested in her?"
"Are you kidding? She's smoking hot!"
It's been my experience that smart, funny, intelligent, sensitive, and above all confident, girls don't like being treated like crap. They want a nice gy who is also secure in himself. It's just that there are so few of these girls out there.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Mr. Squicky, I love that comment.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'll agree to some of the nice guy analysis to an extent. However, I think there's an unwarranted assumption that men who are nice are doing it to get with the woman romantically, which is pretty insulting in and of itself. Also, most people wouldn't recognize true confidence if it bit them in the ass.
Dagonee
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Also, most people wouldn't recognize true confidence if it bit them in the ass.
What do you mean?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
*Chomp*
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Dag, To follow up on that, I guy I knew in college used to complain about how none of the girls he dated were worthy of him. He thought that he was so great and confident and that all the girls he dated were weak. He did eventually date a girl that I personally thought was super-kickass and she blew him right out of the water. He tried to subtly control her the way that he did all of his other weaker girlfirends and she wasn't having it. It wasn't long before he was running scared.
Since I never really liked that guy, I thought this was hilarious.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Pfft. You _say_ you want a confident, independent woman, but you don't really know what to do with one when you find her. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
LawGuy: Oh, really...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's exactly what I mean, Squick.
Kat, true confidence doesn't involve trying to control others, or doing anything to advertise how great you are. It's being yourself, and only changing for other people when that change comes from a genuine desire to please the other person, not from a desire to gain something for yourself by pleasing the other person. It's assuming others will take you at face value and taking others that way. It's knowing who you are, and being willing to confront those portions of who you are that need bettering. It's knowing what you're good at, but being willing to do things you're not good at.
In short, it's nothing anyone can really notice in a bar.
Dagonee Edit to fix spelling (damn homonyms) and wording, but not before Kat quoted it.
[ April 16, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Pfft. You _say_ you want a confident, independent woman, but you don't really know what to do with one when you find her
Marry her. That's what I did. Worked out really well too.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Kat, true confidence doesn't involve trying to control others, or doing anything to advertise how great you are. It's being yourself, and only changing for other people when that change comes from a genuine desire to please the other person, not from a desire to gain something for yourself by pleasing the other person. It's assuming others will take you at face value and taking others that way. It's knowing who you are, and being willing to confront those portions of who you are that need bettering. It's knowing what your good at, but being willing to things your not good at.
In short, it's nothing anyone can really notice in a bar.
Oh, I also love this. Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Check out Olivia Goldsmith's book "Bad Boys." A woman complains to her best bud about her latest jerk boyfriend. Best bud complains about being a nice guy, and asks her to teach him how to be a jerk so he can get dates. She does, and writes about it on the side.
Not what I'd consider a great book, but it did have some excellent insights on the attractions. At one point some women are talking among themselves and asking "Why do we like bad boys, anyway?" and one of them answers in a chillingly brusque, honest manner. I don't have it in front of me, but it's something like, "Because we know there's no real risk of commitment, because we know in our hearts that we're the only ones that can tame this wild panther, because they're the strongest and fiercest around so our bodies know they'll be good breeding stock, because they make the other women envious, and because it's an ego-boost to know that we can attract this impossible-to-control man."
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
To again chime in support of Dag, the psych research I'm running right now is centered around distinguishing between immature self-esteem and a more mature form of self-acceptance. In the first form, people deceive themselves as to how powerful (or smart or whatever) they are. They try to cover up their weaknesses instead of acknowledging them. It's very important that they always feel themselves to be the most powerful, so they tend to dismiss or feel threatened by other powerful people and to enjoy being around weaker people.
In the other form, people demonstrate a devotion and acceptance of the reality of situations. They acknowledge that they have weaknesses. They also tend to appreciate the company of people that are themselves strong. Thus, they don't need to dominate other people or to be the best.
An attitude that I've been pushing a lot comes out of this confidence. That is, confident people don't need others to agree with them to respect or like them. Instead, they tend to focus on whether the way people go about things is worthy of respect.
In terms of a relationship, you are confident when you appreciate another person for who they are and delight in both your similarities and your differences. You are not confident when you focus entirely on what you are getting out of the other person.
The best part is, I've got actual scientific research to back up these claims. Go Science!
edit: And I want to emphasize what Dag said about most people not knowing real confidence if it came up and bit them on the butt. I totally agree.
[ April 16, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
You know the line between confidence and arrogance is one I struggle with myself. I know I come across as arrogant to people but I genuinely don't mean to. I don't think I'm actually more arrogant than anyone else. But you will rarely catch visibly in moments of doubt unless you know the deepest darkest me that not many people see. I second guess myself but I'm not afraid of making decisions either.
How do you be confident but not arrogant?
AJ
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Have faith in your abilities, but don't brag about them. Do what you can and work to stretch your abilities, but don't assume you can handle everything. Remember that no matter how good you are, you can still screw up. Respect the abilities of others. Don't act threatened if your abilities are questioned.
For some reason when I think of "confidence" I think of "quiet." An arrogant person makes sure you know what he or she can do. A confident person doesn't need to.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The quiet part is a good indicator, but a confident person is also willing to speak up and say, "I think I can do that well" when appropriate.
In other words, be willing to make your talents known when that can be helpful.
Dagonee Edit: It's worth pointing out that the reason you need to speak up at such times is because you haven't been arrogant before.
[ April 16, 2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Livvy, have I told you lately that I love you? Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I find that the problem is that even if other people *can* do something they are afraid to open their mouths while I'm not. Therefore I'm seen as arrogant just because I will admit I can do something when no one else will even if they are equally if not more capable. I do screw up, but when I do I try to honestly admit it, make reparations as much as possible and move on. I didn't mean to make this introspective but it is something I struggle with trying to make sense about.
Now that I have a boyfriend both he and other guy friends have told me the reason why I seemed unapproachable from a romantic standpoint is because I gave off no visible appearance of "need" even if I wasn't arrogant.
AJ
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
AJ, if that's what you're doing you're not arrogant. I think lack of confidence can make truly confident people appear arrogant.
Dagonee
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
AJ, I think that some people view true confidence as being arrogance. It isn't, and they are mistaken. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
But therin lies the problem. Is it more noble to hide the confidence, so that others feel more comfortable around you?
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I know what you mean. Is the expectation really to act weak. That hardly seems either honest or desirable in any way.
It also isn't necessary, since everbody has weaknesses about something.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
People should just be themselves. The right person will love you regardless.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I find that confidence is attractive to people, but it makes you less approachable. People want to be near you, but they don't know how to get close. You don't seem to need what they have to give. My way around this is to state what I need honestly and confidently. I compliment people on their strengths when I notice them. Also, I am frank about my weaknesses.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
The confidence shouldn't be hidden, nor should one act weak. If you play a game well, play it well. If you do something well, don't say "I do this well" unless that information is directly relevant. Or, don't say anything about how good you are and just offer to do the thing you do well that needs doing. When someone needs an accurate assessment of your skills, give it.
All this is much harder than it sounds, I realize. I err both ways at different times.
Dagonee
Posted by Yank (Member # 2514) on :
I have to leave the library, but I had two comments before I do.
1) I agree with about everything that has been said in this thread, whole-heartedly.
2) I was just thinking how nice it was that all the posts actually use *grammar*. And *punctuation*! And *spelling*! Truly Hatrack is a diamond in the rough of the Internet. It warms my anal-retentive soul.
[ April 16, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Yank ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Jenny, I love you, too.
Mr.Squicky, I didn't mean to sound angry with you. I only wanted to gripe about the Housewives thing. My mom was always very annoyed by that label. She preferred, "Homemaker". I actually hate them both. My house is much less cared for than the people in it. Ask CT, since she saw my sloppy house full of happy people
I actually appreciate your comments and I agree with you. I suppose I should have made that clearer. *giggle* It's the label thing again. Call it a pet peeve. It rushed to the top of my brain ahead of all the complimentary comments. Like the one I was meaning to give you about your take on Abraham and Isaac on the other thread. With the limited time I have, I guess I sort of nod at the good points and elaborate my own opinions from there.
Just to make it clear:
Squick ROCKS!!! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Olivet(ta), how do you feel about the term "domestic goddess"? Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
rivka, if she's a goddess, does that mean someone will be starting The Church of Olivet?
*wonders what the requirements are for joining*
*hopes he doesn't get struck by lightning*
Olivet, you are a pretty cool person.
rivka, can I join your fan club?
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
I will SO start the church of Olivet.
Ni!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Derrell, not necessarily. I think that's only if she's a Goddess. As far as membership, sounds great to me, but that's imogen's department.
kwsni, cool! Only shouldn't Olivet be a founder too?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I guess I was that “nice guy” in high school. Not to say I was particularly nice (if I was I doubt that 3/4ths of the people in my classes would’ve hated me ) but almost all my friends were girls, and I certainly heard plenty about whatever boy it was they wanted. It never really bugged me because I guess that at the time I really wasn’t interested (which of course resulted in many of the people I knew thinking I was gay but that’s another story/rant). Anyways, after a good while (I hung out with a group of girls all through out high school and this was during senior year) some of them did start to get a crush on me (being that it was girls doing the “crushing” of course all this information was obtained through some sort of weird, twisted, really long chain of command that only they can understand). I don’t know, I guess I did act with confidence (mostly just because I recognized that hey, what could possibly happen? ) but my anecdotal lesson was that, being the nice guy you may be ignored for a while, but not necessarily forever. And besides, if anything ever does happen you’ll know the other person well and presumably get along with them; and hopefully your relationship will end up being more than the flash-in-the-pan variety.
And as a side note, any guy who is nice to a girl for simple dating purposes instead of because of the respect he holds for her as a person is both doomed to failure even if he manages to get a date with her and is also a fool and a jerk. Thank-you.
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Not to kill the thread or anything...
Hobbes Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
I have alot of trouble about this "being yourself" thing. I act very different depending on who I'm with, but it's very rarely (if ever) conscious. I only notice it in retrospect, or in some cases, when I start to annoy myself. So am I a big fake? Or am I my real self (or selves) whenever I'm comfortable enough with the way I'm acting that I don't think of it?
I ask this, because I've been asking myself this question off and on for quite a long time. Who is the real me? Are there several of them? If you consciously try to be yourself, does that mean you're fake?
Okay, the more I type, the more I confuse myself, so I stop here.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: That's because a female cat is called a dam
Syn: I thought it was a queen as well. That's what it says on the back of my Kitten Replacement Milk.
---
Man, confidence. My husband is the most confident guy I know. It's like, if there were a cliff of confidence, and you could get closer to the edge and become more confident, but egotism would send you hurtling over the edge...
...he's teetering right there. Right on the edge. And he's tied to a tree to keep him from falling off....
...and the tree is him tripping on things. He does that all the time.
He embodies the phrase "Those who know, don't speak. Those who speak, don't know." That's not the exact phrase I don't think, but you get the point. Hence, anytime people are saying stupid things, he never says a word.
I really can't stop talking about him. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I ask this, because I've been asking myself this question off and on for quite a long time. Who is the real me? Are there several of them? If you consciously try to be yourself, does that mean you're fake?
The real you is a person who acts differently in different circumstances, which is to be expected. If you planned how you were going to act ("I'll tell the Priest, Rabbi, and Minister joke to get things started.") you'd have something to worry about.
Dagonee
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I'm really not all that interested in labels, even if one of them involves the word 'goddess'.
But, thanks a lot, guys. It just makes me feel good to read that people I think are cool seem to think I'm cool , too.
I've had a really bad week, for some reason. I really think I may be ill, in some fairly protracted way. I think this may be my second most successful thread ever, after the Shaven Scrotum game. (Let the newbies figure THAT one out )
I have weird taste. I have always thought NIce Guys were sexy. I mean, in movies and stuff, I usually go for a villian, or a handsome male character with menace. Real life, though... Nah, those too cool for you rebel guys just seem sort of funny to me, like a guy wearing a big pink Rabbit suit. It's all a put-on.
Confidence is cool because, lets face it, there is nothing that wears on a person so much as being around a person who constantly needs your reassurance of their worth. They're like psychic remoras, and, while not neccessarily outwardly harmful, they're still a drag.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I wonder what OSC thought of last night's episode.
Here's a rough idea of what was said.
Pratt: (after being "informally accused of sexual harrassment) I had you in the room so I wouldn't be accused of things I didn't do.
Sam: Oh, come on, you know you wanted her. Tell me you weren't thinking what a great "rack" she had.
Pratt: I wasn't, and even if I was, it doesn't matter. She can't read minds.
Sam: We all can. It's not that hard. You're a guy. All guys think about is food, sports and sex. If they ever create a refrigerator with a wide-screen TV and a vagina, we'll never see you again.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's just as well that I missed it, I guess. *sigh*
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
The executive producers are John Wells, Lydia Woodward and Michael Crichton. Over the last ten years, there have been 30 some odd producers/co-producer/executive producer/etc.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Well, west coast liberals or not, my husband agrees with them. I told him what was said, and while miffed by it, he grudgingly said it was true. Must be true love. I found someone who agrees with me about men. Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
It may be (broadly) true of the male animal, but there is a male mind connected to and in control of the male animal. The male mind is not so simplistic.
Unfortunately, too many men turn the reins entirely over to the animal.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
I only speak in generalities. Individual men are adorable, as I've said previously.
[This post not aimed at anyone, just a restatement of fact, in case anyone had forgotten.] Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
"I can be your Housewife baby!" "I can take away your pain!" "I will stand by you... foreva!" "You take...*heavy breathing* breath away..."
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Okay, Telp. You can be my Housewife. Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Whoa. Now, I'd pay some good money to see that.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
O_o
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Got this in email, and thought it fit with the general theme of the thread:
quote: THE NEXT SURVIVOR SERIES > **** > Six married men > will be dropped > on an island with > 1 car > and > 4 kids each, > for 6 weeks. > Each kid plays two sports > and either takes > music or dance classes. > **** > There is no access to fast food. > **** > Each man must take care of his 4 kids, > keep his assigned house clean, correct all homework, > complete science projects, cook, do laundry, etc. > **** > The men only have access to television > When the kids are asleep and > all chores are done. > There is only one TV between them > and there is > NO REMOTE > ***** > The men must shave their legs, > wear makeup daily, > which they must apply themselves, > either while driving or > while making four lunches. > ***** > They must attend weekly PTA meetings; > ***** > clean up after their sick children at 3:00 a.m.; > ***** > make an Indian hut model with > six toothpicks, > a tortilla > and one marker; > ***** > and get a 4-year-old to eat a serving of peas. > ***** > The kids vote them off the island, based on performance. > ***** > The last man wins .. > only if ........... > he has enough energy to be intimate > with his spouse at a moment's notice. > ***** > If the last man does win, he can play the game > over and over again > for the next 18-25 years ... > eventually earning the right to be called > ************** > ***"Mother."*** > ***************
One of the guys my Mom sent it too, responded with the question:
"Does the TV have HGTV?"
At least he had a sense of humor.
BTW, my husband is always outspoken that he thinks my job is harder than his, and would never trade places with me.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I'd do it in a heartbeat, but you probably wouldn't like what I considered 'clean' or 'nutritious'. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
My hubby is like that, too, though sometimes I think, in his heart of hearts, he thinks he could do better.
*SHRUG* He's probably right (at least in some ways, I think he'd be a great full-time parent). Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I always thought the best way to get over a lack of appreciation for the other spouse's job is to swap. There are lots of headaches to working full time outside the home, too. Seems like if both of you feel the other has it easy, then everyone would be happier if the roles were reversed. And no excuses about why you can't make as much money, or why you can't keep the house as clean, and the children as happy and well fed/dressed/educated/behaved. They've got it easy, right? So you do it.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Whenever I leave Porter with the kids for extended periods of time, I know he is just counting the minutes until I return and relieve him of those three little burdens. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Thoughts on things like the episode of "I Love Lucy" where Ricky and Lucy switch for the day, and on using the term "babysitting" to refer to dad watching the kids:
I've never thought that situation would work like it does on TV. Switching wouldn't really help much. It might help ME because I could more fully appreciate what a burden it is to be doing manual labor in the desert in the summer (read: My husband moved 2,000 pounds of flagstone yesterday by himself, just not all at once.)
But for him, it wouldn't work. Case in point: Leaving Jes alone with my son for a week left him tired and stressed, but not nearly as much as I would have been. Why? Because they'd been eating out and doing "fun stuff" for seven days, which are things I wouldn't normally do. Now, hamburgers everyday for a week won't kill my kids, but you can't keep it up forever. The only way for them to fully grasp it is to have to do it longterm, so that they can become as neurotic about every detail as WE are. *I* have to consider my child's nutrition over a long period of time...Jes can feed the kids junk until I get back without permanently damaging them. He can give the kids a total of two baths the entire time I'm gone, but I have to scrub them twice a day for a week to make up for it.
My husband is kind, and cares about our kids. He loves them, plays with them, and rewards and disciplines them fairly. But there is a grain of truth to describing dad's day (or week) with the kids as "babysitting" because all the really important stuff gets put on hold until Mom gets back. If he has a question or isn't sure what to do, he can save it for me. (And that builds up.) When *I* have a question or don't know what to do, I have to make an educated decision and keep trucking.
If moms and dads switched for the day, the work would still be unequal because there would be things that mom would have fix or figure out when she got home.
(This, of course, would work the other way around for stay-at-home dads.)
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Oh I agree. It has to be a for-the-forseeable-future type switch. The same thing is true in the other direction, too. The person who works outside the home has to think of how the economy is looking, what is the long term earning potential in their industry, is it worth while to put up with this very unpleasant boss for a couple of years with the potential for promotion around him at the end of that time, and so on. There is much more to all jobs than one day's effort will bring home.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Please, my husband doesn't think about that stuff. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I completely agree with PSI and anne kate. A day where you have to think about long-term consequences will be very different than a day when you can forget about them.
When my mom died, I still had two brothers at home, and it's remarkable how many things fell through the cracks. They hired a housekeeper to do the cooking and cleaning, and my dad bought the boys cell phones that they were required to keep on (didn't anyway), but things like...well, report cards. My dad didn't even look at their report cards or ask about grades for two years. My brothers picked up a habit of skipping school because there were literally no immediate consequences.
I don't believe that any intelligent person is incapable of doing what needs to be done, though. I think its just easier to ignore it and hope the issue goes away.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I hate how most guys today associate slobness with masculinity. As an overly obsessive, appearance based man I can't stand a few of my roomates. Fat, drunk, eating hotdogs with mayo and watching football is not "manly." That's just "dumbassery." (Can you figure out if I made that word up or not?)
People like that are guys. Not men. See Dave Barry's book comparing the two for more information.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My husband works at night, and has always been the one to be with the kids in the day.
Sometimes, if he is out of town, and I have to put the kids on the bus(which I have to call in late to do), I thank heaven for him.
He is definitely more fun and more fast food oriented than I am, but he is every bit a parent in time, energy, and love, as I am. He is no babysitter.
My dad raised me alone in a time when it wasn't often done, as I think I have mentioned before. I am so thankful he raised me, and not my grandparents.
Sometimes, I think men are intimidated by women's style of parenting, and figure they cannot do that, so why try? I try not to give my husband any crap when he is in charge. We work well together that way.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Sometimes, I think men are intimidated by women's style of parenting, and figure they cannot do that, so why try?
This may be true with some men, but I think alot of them just honestly have no clue what's going on in our minds. On the outside we're fixing dinner, but on the inside we're planning dinner for the next week, thinking about whether the food groups were covered, wondering how cranky the kids will be (since they didn't get a nap), planning the best timing for getting them in bed without a fight, trying to remember if Son likes cabbage, kicking ourselves mentally because we forgot to rinse the ammonia of the bathroom floor, wondering where all the small spoons have gone, thinking about the cool picture Daughter drew that morning, wondering if you're going to get lucky later, trying to remember if you paid the electric bill, and so on.
Think we talk alot, guys? Compare that to what we're thinking about, and it's a drop in the bucket.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Er...that list is exactly what I've always assumed most people (male and female) think about while making dinner (or any similar task), PSI.
<--- Is a dude.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Well, the next time a woman asks you what you are thinking, do NOT reply with "I don't know" or "nothin'". That tends to throw us off.
Or maybe that was your plan.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:wondering where all the small spoons have gone
No kidding! Where do they go? And why don't silverware sets have three times as many small spoons as anything else? I've bought entire sets simply in an attempt to always be able to have yogurt. I don't know where they go. I haven't played in the sandbox in ages, so my old hiding place can't be the culprit.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
See, I have done both. At one time my job carried more responsibility and brought in more money than Wes. Plus our insurance was through my job, the family depended on my working.
It was a heckuva lot easier to work outside the home than it is to stay home with the kids.
It's hard for people to understand that if they've never stayed home with kids. Like Olivet, I believe there are times when Wes thinks I have it much easier. That if he stayed home all day things would run smoother, the kids would behave better, the house would be cleaner.
*shrug* He can't trade places with me, because his is the only income and now his income is much, much higher than mine ever was.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I could never, ever, be a SAHM.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
If I gave you six million bucks, I bet you could manage okay.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That six million better not be monopoly money.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Depends on what kind of price you put on happiness.
There are some things that any amount of money couldn't make me do.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Wow... reading this thread makes me feel so... abnormal as a woman...
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
The thing is, Mack, you can be a SAHM, and not really ever be H. When I was home,(about nine months total, not counting summers off) I would just pack everybody up, throw food in a cooler, and go somewhere. It made cleaning the house a snap! They were not there as much to mess it up.
In the summer, to the beach or bike path. Mack, you could just strap the babe to your back and head for the hills.
There are all kinds of SAHMs. I like to think of myself as a Dented-Van Soccer Mom. I do all the soccer mom things, just not as efficiently or as regularly or as well.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
If gas prices get up much higher we'll stay homebound every day, though!
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Yeah. I agree with Belle. I made good money (GREAT money for an English Major ), but I HATED my job, for the most part.
However, even on days when people wanted to blame ME because their son left his wife and moved to California ( I had never even seen the fellow in person, and somehow, as a government flunky, I was responsible for this kid's total lack of loyalty to his wife and his son? Oy. I sat down UNDER my cubicle and cried) it was still easier than staying home with a toddler and a preschooler. They would scorch if we went to the playground except in the late evening, and going anywhere was hard because I didn't know anybody.
Plus, I couldn't go to a store or the mall for long enough to have to use the bathroom, because Liam would get out of his stroller, crawl under the stall and ask strangers to pick him up before I could get my pants up enough for decency's sake.
It's easier now, but for a while it was incredibly hard. I think I went three years before I could safely use the bathroom with the door shut (had to keep an eye on the little miscreants). Geez, what a life.
That said, I didn't choose to do it because it was easier. I chose to stay home because Ron and I decided that one of us should, and I volunteered. It was a hard, thankless job the first few years, but I'm glad I did it.
Oh, and Ron usually packs Robert's lunch for school (mister finicky will eat lunch from the cafeteria once or twice a month, if that), but I packed it for him on Friday. He got home from school and asked me who packed his lunch. That worried me a little, because Ron and I are usually both up getting stuff ready for the day. I'm usually the one getting his clothes and homework in order, etc. while Ron does his lunch.
I was afraid he didn't like it or something. But no. He said, "It was a really big luch and I really liked it. I just wanted to thank the person responsible."
Then he grilled Ron later about why he never packs good lunches like that. Gosh, I love that kid. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I love your boys.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:I could never, ever, be a SAHM.
I think you should reserve judgment on this issue until you are actually a mom. Many say that and change their minds.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
See, I also say that because I don't think I'm capable of being a mother.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm referring to this article (the Sexism part):![[Wink]](wink.gif)
but so they could defend and protect their families. That's the way things should be, IMO.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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