About a year ago I happened to talk with an acquaintance of mine, a teacher of Belles Lettres, and she expressed her distaste for American culture. She said it lacked depth. I replied that I had read several works by Americans and that I didn't find them superficial. At which she insisted, and I asked her if she had ever actually read anything written by an American, to which she replied "Not really". "Not really what? Almost, but not quite, or never?" I went on, feeling terribly nasty indeed, and stated quoting some well known authors. Henry David Thoreau? Herman Melville? Edgar Allan Poe? Henry James? Edith Wharton? "Not really, no." Not even oft quoted poets? Walt Whitman? Emily Dickinson? "Ehm, no." Then she she said solemnly, "I don't need to know American culture to understand that it's worthless."
This, in a nutshell, is the essence of European anti-americanism. A mixture of ignorance, arrogance, and prejudice. I always thought that to judge a culture you need to know it, at least a bit. But no, why waste time when superciliousness can do your work for you? I quote this episode because it illustrates a feeling quite common over here. Americans are superficial. They lack depth. They lack complexity. And so, no matter what they do, they're always wrong. Better sit gracefully on a fence than actually do something, it's so vulgar.
# posted by Joy @ 2:36 AM
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
The french can talk?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Sorry, I needed it. Hey, there are stupid people with prejugees EVERYWHERE, you know. You should have heard you just before the war began in Iraq I love American culture, and I love Hatrack.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
I like American culture!
However, I think it's a mistake to classify that as European anti-Americanism, as I know plenty of Americans that hate American culture in just the same way.
But yes, it is possible to hate something without understanding it at all. In fact, that's the EASIEST way to hate something.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: But yes, it is possible to hate something without understanding it at all. In fact, that's the EASIEST way to hate something.
Very well said Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Let's link to the Catwoman trailer and prove her wrong.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Yeah, I know many European countries that don't have any real problem with our culture... France and Italy I can see being condescending, as well as Spain. I saw Barcelona (the movie) and it seemed to kinda strike home to me. It seems the Latinate countries are the most beliigerent when it comes to that.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Okay, not all the french. Especially not Anna.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Erik Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Anna
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Funny how I'm interested in European Culture, especially the Art, and some Europeans wouldn't even like to consider us at all.
The close-minded are everywhere.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: But yes, it is possible to hate something without understanding it at all. In fact, that's the EASIEST way to hate something.
But in the other way, hopefully, when you get to know something or someone, you can less easily hate it or him In my adolescence, anti-Americans speech didn't bother me. Now I met Hatrack and all those wonderful people here, I just can't stay sit and let someone say that all Americans are obese or violent or stupid. Internet is a good and a bad thing, but it allowed me to meet those I thought were very different from me, in a certain way they were, but in other ways they were like other myself. A good way to try to learn tolerance, if you ask me.
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
This "Frogman" seems to like Americans and American Culture just fine too.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Kat, you rawk.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Am I a "frogwoman" ? Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm not very proud of American cheese.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I'm not proud of French pancakes, pizzas or coffee, to be honest. And a lot of things I don't remember now. For exemple, hard to find peanut butter here and I am a peanutbutterholic.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
What is American culture exactly? Now pop culture is a vast wasteland. It's not easy to find something good that has depth about it. But there's always some spark of light and interest somewhere... You can't just say you hate all of American culture due to a few stupid movies or lame pop stars parading around nekkid every five seconds. That's not the full spectrum of American Culture. There is jazz to consider! Rock and roll! A whole smashing range of books! Which is why I wish I could study American culture so I can at least know what I'm talking about when I criticise it. Especially since these days it seems to be about Mc Donalds, Coca Cola, product icons drowning out creativity like weeds. At least on some weird level..
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
OSC!
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
American culture, hmmm...
Ah, yes: Leonard Cohen! Great stuff! Yay to Canada.
What else?
Ah, yes: Nina Simone! The high priestess of soul! Johnny Depp! What a guy! Benjamin Franklin -- surely a very cultured man.
Ohh, wait, all these preferred, or prefer, to live, in France, no?
[ April 16, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Sal ]
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
That's some pretty selective picking there. That has to be, what, less than .5% of famous Americans? Also, you'd have to lump Alec Baldwin in there, too, and that takes the highbrow down a notch.
[ April 16, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Wait, how is this different from the vast number of Americans who hate France?
Or are we just agreeing that there are a lot of idiots in the world?
*ahem*
What I meant to say is, Go America Go!
Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
Sure, Book. That's why:
Though it's really interesting to think more globally and ask: Which part of American culture is, or will become, part of the world culture?
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: Wait, how is this different from the vast number of Americans who hate France?
Or are we just agreeing that there are a lot of idiots in the world?
Bob Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I never get that France hatred... Makes no sense to me... But then again, a lot of things people do just confuse me.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: Which part of American culture is, or will become, part of the world culture?
Email is Awesome Email is Weird Email is Awesome Email is Weird [incomprensible] GRRRRL!
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
American dislike of France stems from Gaullism, I believe; Charles de Gaulle tried his hardest to get Americans out of France after World War II due to a deep, deep distrust of us. We didn't take that too well. Jaques Chirac is a neo-Gaullist, I think, or so I hear. He certainly believes France deserves a far higher place in the world than it currently occupies, and his unintelligent, tactless quips about America-loving Eastern Europeans makes him out to be the ultimate French political stereoty[e in many people's eyes.
Also, France prides itself on its culture, probably more than any other nation, and that just leads to a conflict of interest with America's natural exceptionalism.
[ April 16, 2004, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posted by Kamisaki (Member # 6309) on :
Anna, two words: Strong Bad.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I would like to second Anna's mention of pizza being one of the great American refinements. It is truly a wonder food that will make your teeth whiter, your fur shinier, and improve your sex life.
Hooray for American pizza!
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: [incomprensible]
It's "and I'll never forget the way it was grrrl!"
duh. Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
Hey I asked all the guys in the barracks how many of them had ready anything by any of those authors I received 49 nos, 1 yes ( myself), not to mention a whole lot of " Hey Jay Stop talkign about books and grab a beer."
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Even for Poe?
Hobbes Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Ha, that was my 6000 post and I didn't even notice! Mark this as the first time I've not done a landmark for a 1000 marker.
*Wipses sweat of forehead* I didn't much want to figure out what to write anyways.
Hobbes Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
yes, believe it or not, most people I kinda hang around here pretty much don't read for fun. The closest they come to quality reading is a training or field manual.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Yah but.... Poe! They must've at least heard quotes from The Raven! If not you should start quothing some of it to them.
*really lame joke smilie*
Hobbes Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*blink* I'm sorry, there are people who graduated from American high schools and didn't have to read ANY Poe? No Tell-Tale Heart? Not even The Raven?
I'm fairly certain pieces by each and every one of those writers were required reading in my high school!
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
Have you had a chance to ask the foriegn soldiers what they have read?
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
quote:Hey I asked all the guys in the barracks how many of them had ready anything by any of those authors I received 49 nos, 1 yes ( myself), not to mention a whole lot of " Hey Jay Stop talkign about books and grab a beer."
And these minds are defending our country.
I feel safer already.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
I LOVE Strongbad Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Excerpt from, "The Naked and the Well Read" (soldiers)
quote:When the order came to take Hill 19 the Sergeant ground his cigar stub into the fine white sand of Tojaida Island and bared his corn-yellow teeth. "Not that it's ours to take!" he said, rubbing his thick, calloused hand over the stubble of his square jaw. "You mugs understand we have property right in the hill, or any moral claim to the area it encompasses." He shifted his packed, hard body and spat into an overturned C-ration can.
"But is it correct, from an ethical standpoint, to allow physical force to be the deciding factor in disagreements between nations? What would Thoreau say?" It was Dough-Boy, the freckle-faced infantryman with the crooked, Mid-Western smile and innocent grey eyes that blinked whenever you poured pencil shavings in them.
"Difficult to say," the Sergeant replied, pulling a cigar stub from its wrapper. "Kant would subscribe to the deontological theory of moral imperatives."
"Check!" interrupted Grease-Monkey, the cherub-faced mechanic and former professor of Linguistics at Cornell. "He'd want us to examine our motives in a neutral environment, not the biased circumstances of war."
Bull, resting his muscle-bloated body on a rusted oil drum, had been shoved to the breaking point. His broad, featureless face exploded in fury as he jumped to his feet. "Talk, talk, talk... all we do is talk. Me want to clobber the enemy, not talk!" As he worked his massive mandibles the others rolled their eyes.
"Reminds me a little of Benjy, the simple-minded Christ figure in Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury," muttered Stir-Fry, the platoon chef.
"Philistine!" said Germ-Jockey, the seasoned medic.
"Leave 'im alone" ordered the Sergeant. There was a long, embarrassed silence as the rage melted from Bull's boulder-like head. "Hey, like... like me sorry me got mad" he grumbled, like a friendly grizzly bear endowed with the miracle of human speech. "It's just data I didn't do the readin' this week."
The platoon burst into gentle laughter as the Sergeant gave Bull a manly but affectionate kick in the head. "Hell, that all? Jesus, Bull, you can catch up. It's only 80 pages of Flaubert and we'll help you with the French." The Sargeant's [sic] words stretched a broad, moronic smile across Bull's acre-wide face and helped the platoon temporarily forget the horrors o jungle war.
"Alright...alright!" shouted the Sargeant [sic], shoulder his book bag, "load up and remember...no shooting. We have a moral obligation to preserve all life, regardless of the demands placed on us by an arbitrary government."
"Even if they shoot at us first, Sarge?" asked Slim-Jim, the munitions expert and beef jerky magnate, as he unloaded his rifle. "I mean, some interpret Ghandi's [sic] later writings as..." The Sergeant interrupted his discourse with a powerful right to the solar plexus. "Im [sic] not takin' any revisionist up the hill with me" he added, turning his back on Slim-Jim's wheezing form," so you can sit here and stew while we're gone."
At the call to "fall out," the small platoon lined up and began its rigorous but sensitive trek through the dense jungle. CO'B
Posted by Fishtail (Member # 3900) on :
quote:And these minds are defending our country.
I feel safer already.
Not all of your military members eschew literature, even of the American variety.
But yes, it does take all kinds to defend the Constitution. And often, the military gives people some means to improve/continue their education.
Your generalization is misconstrued.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Beren, I'm not sure if that's funny or frightening. And I'm not sure what it says about people who read too much. But that was cool.
I think all cultures have good and bad in them. American culture that nobody mentioned yet: THE BLUES! Of course that originated in West African folk music, but everything we've done comes from somewhere else. Maybe the coolest thing of all about America is just how we freely cadge, nick, adopt, steal, borrow, and amalgamate everything good from everywhere else. Pizza, indeed. I would add the American version Chinese food, which isn't anything like Chinese Chinese food, from what I hear, but it's so great!
Energy, optimism, vitality, feeling. America is a puppy. How can you not love it?
But France is wonderful too. Because Anna's from there, and they make such great movies, and they seem to understand the human heart there, more than we do, don't they? And know its all-importance. And because of Le Petit Prince. What a jewel of a book! (I think I'm in love with a French pilot who died 60 years ago.)
<<<<<<<<<<<Anna>>>>>>>>>>>>
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
You should come to Poland, John. Every soldier knows Thoreau and Melville by heart. Not to mention Shakespeare.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
ak, you will never guess who wrote that article. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Beren, that was awesome. Is "The Naked and Well Read" a book?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Nope. It was written by a college student.
This student, now a major contributor to the worthless American Culture, recently gave a pretty nifty commencement speech for his alma mater.
"What else can you expect? Let me see, by your applause, who here wrote a thesis. (APPLAUSE) A lot of hard work, a lot of your blood went into that thesis... and no one is ever going to care.
I wrote a thesis: Literary Progeria in the works of Flannery O'Connor and William Faulkner. Let's just say that... it doesn't come up much. For three years after graduation I kept my thesis in the glove compartment of my car so I could show it to a policeman in case I was pulled over. (ACT OUT) License, registration, cultural exploration of the Man Child in the Sound and the Fury..."
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Are you saying it was written by you?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
What a compliment, but no. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I don't think most guys in an all male environment are looking for a way to demonstrate their grasp on the finer things in life. I mean, when I'm hanging out with the girls, none of them wants to discuss compression ratios in two stroke vs. four stroke engines.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Ah, internal combustion engines, though. Sweet nothings to my ear! Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
Thanks fishtail. I was going to post something to that effect. Some to Most of these military minds are educated.
To let you know, I hated Poe's writings. I prefer Nathaniel Hawthorne, Mark Twain, Louis Lamoore (changed to L'amour). If you want to compare book collections, I own over 550 books (not all in english) and have over 800 magazines ranging from cars to western history and ww2 history.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I had "dulce et decorum est" inked on my helmet band at various times while I was in the military and no one said a damn thing to me. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Stan, I'm not terribly fond of Poe's stuff either. I just can't imagine not remembering it!
Storm, did you really?! Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
(((((ak)))))
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Storm: Don't forget the pro patri mori!
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Storm, did you mean that ironically, as in the poem?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:Jaques Chirac is a neo-Gaullist, I think, or so I hear. He certainly believes France deserves a far higher place in the world than it currently occupies, and his unintelligent, tactless quips about America-loving Eastern Europeans makes him out to be the ultimate French political stereotype in many people's eyes
Well, this is certainly a simplification. Chirac's party has made a large effort to distance itself from the Gaulliste party. It's basically a conglomerate of parties on the right, consolidated to create a larger voting force against the leftist parties. At any rate, I would by no means call Chirac representative of the French public. The only reason he was elected to a second term is because he was running against LePen. And the most recent round of elections has shown him losing a lot of ground.
Not that any of this is relevant... the main issure here is over-simplification of a people you don't understand. As soon as anyone starts passing judgement on an entire nation without being fully educated, we run into problems of prejudice and stereotyping.
Can't we all just get along? Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I actually don't have much of a problem with the french... I took several French literature classes and they were some of my favorites, which is sort of the reason why I find the distance and their supposed disdain for us to be fairly distressing.
But the guy who told me Chirac was a neo-Gaullist was my European relations professor, whom I trust... He's published and whatnot, if that means anything, and he certainly knows enough about European politics to go on and on about it endlessly, on tangents, and bore us all to death. Perhaps he's wrong. Americans probably associate any semblance of French ambition with Gaullism.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
There is a valid point under there, even if the Italian lady came nowhere close to finding it. When you're in Europe it's just as easy to find American culture as it is here, and not just because of the Internet. The prevalence is freaky considering the language barrier et al. In my experience this in no way drowned out local culture -- 300 million people can absorb a lot of cultures, period -- but the prospect has rightfully scared some folks.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
quote: But the guy who told me Chirac was a neo-Gaullist was my European relations professor, whom I trust...
He is right. Point is, not everybody in his party is like him : in fact it's a minority. And as a president he represents the all party, not his own opinions.
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Anna
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