quote:

---

I mean OSC doesn't appreciate fans telling him they don't like his books, and Kristine gets defensive when people post it here. There's never an official smackdown, but she doesn't like it. There was a thread a while back that was very critical of something he wrote, and the mods wondered why people wondered why OSC never posted here. I know maintaining the site is an immediate drain (maybe not a long-term one), and that just means that criticizing OSC's books on his site kicks off the panic button for me.
I want the people in charge of keeping it alive (Kristine) to feel happy feelings. We are guests in their living room.

---

While I don't disagree with Kat's post, I guess I find it hard to believe that someone in OSC's position wouldn't want feedback.

Feedback, if given in the proper tone, with the proper amount of respect should be seen as something good. If anything, it's a way to see anothers point of view and move on from there, using the information or not using it to make yourself better in the end.

Of course, It has to be done in a mood of respect, concern and mutual understanding.

But, that's just me.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
I agree with you as far as constructive feedback goes. "I don't like this book" isn't very constructive. What don't you like about it? What do you think did work? What would make it better in your eyes?

Also, I think it's pretty well known that OSC himself doesn't read this forum very much. So posting feedback here isn't very effective, and doesn't feel (to me) like an appropriate place. This is, like Kat said, a party in his living room, but he's out on the back porch talking with someone else, and "we're" making negative comments for his wife and kids to overhear. What good does that do?

I would think if you have true feedback, that is, with helpful comments, send him a letter. If you just want to complain, do it somewhere his family can't overhear you.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Or phrase it politely, and be specific. Mention things you DO like as well.

I like his books, but I don't love everything about every one of them. However, I don't run around critisizing him, as he is FAR more talented than I am, at least at writing.

It's easy to critisize something that you have never done. I hear people in NE complain about Pedro Martinez all the time, but people who know baseball, particularily those who have played it professionally, say he is the best in baseball. That doesn't stop people from saying he sucks every time he messes up, or does something they don't like.

This IS a fan site, and if you aren't a fan then don't post. If you are a fan, but have a problem with something in a book, discuss it in a civil fashon.

BTW, I mean this in general, not as an attack on any one person....I have seen this topic debated over and over again here, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents this time...

Kwea
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Perhaps, but how many people would really feel comfortable being given negative feedback, in front of audience (much less in their own living room)?

I mean, I have opinions about ssome of his work that might not be entirely complimentary, but I try to use my best verbal gymnastics to keep from expressing them here. Even though my intentions would not be malicious, it would just feel... rude. Not because I wouldn't say it in front of him if asked, but precisely because he didn't ask.

I mean, it just seems a strange mix of things: confrontational because it's 'in their living room' and also sort of talking-about-someone-behind-his-back because he probably won't see it.

Though I admit, the regular posting of his articles here does sort of lend itself to discussion. I'm not sure where that line should be, honestly.
 

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Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
I think OSC is a great writer. He is a wonderful storyteller and the depth and complexity of some of his stories cannot be matched. I recommend him highly to everyone I know.

[ April 19, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: UTAH ]
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
I don't tink his book sneed any sort of feedback or criticism at this point, because they are already beyond his reach, in a manner of speaking.

Feedback is usually a term people use when seeking to improve unpublished works. Even the most constructive of criticisms won't help something that's already out there. He can't fix it unless there's another edition or something. So why bother? Just to look smart? "Hey! Lookee! i found a mistake in blah-blah on page whatsits!"

With the opinion articles... I think if we can discuss them without being insulting, then it's probably okay.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Me too. I guess I should delete some stuff I wrote a long time ago on the Discussions about OSC side.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I don't think it's really behind his back, since we post with the knowledge that he could choose to read our words at any time or just do a search and bring up old posts. Or kacard or Geoff could read something here and casually mention it around the dinner table.

Since it's ridiculously easy to search the web and find posts people have made from 1996, I think it just makes sense that you should only posts messages you're prepared to stand behind no matter who sees them.

As for why OSC doesn't visit here much -- I can't speak for him, but Hatrack is my own favorite method of avoiding writing, and I don't do it for a living.
Spider Robinson's creations spawned one of the most popular newsgroups ever, alt.callahans, and he flatly refuses to visit it because he knows in his heart he'd disappear and never write pay copy again.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Are you saying that you can only talk about OSC's work if you have good things about it? If you didn't love it, you aren't allowed to share your feelings here? I doubt that's how the Cards feel.

But I have been wrong before.
 

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Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 
I can understand what you are saying about not being insulting, but there's an entire forum titled "Discussions about Orson Scott Card." If he didn't intend for people to discuss his work then he wouldn't have created that forum. I also don't think he expects that every comment will be glowing in praise. I think it's an invitation to openly and honestly discuss his works.

Besides, if you're at this site, you almost certainly like more things about his work than you dislike, so criticism is unlikely to be too insulting.
 

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Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 

quote:

---

Besides, if you're at this site, you almost certainly like more things about his work than you dislike, so criticism is unlikely to be too insulting.

---

What he/she said.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
I don't read every thread here, and I'm on this side much more often than I am the other, but I've never noticed any chilling effect regarding criticism of OSC's work. I wouldn't blame the mods for removing posts that just slam his stuff, but I've never noticed constructive criticism being stifled.

And if you're good at finding mistakes or inconsistencies, you might end up in a future acknowledgement page...
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Kacard has explicitly stated that it's o.k. to disagree with what Mr. Card says. The idea that someone would censor those who disagree with what they write is a little...odd, to say the least. Would any of you really be able to respect Mr. Card if he advocated that belief? Do any of you really think that's proper?

You know when OSC needs to be worried? When people stop responding to his work. I think he's not afraid of pissing other people off with his tone and ideas. Given the way he writes, I would guess that it's a priority for him to be honest about the way he feels about certain things. Good for him, I say. Why would anyone think people aren't going to show him the same courtesy when talking about his work? Isn't it implicit without asking that a host is o.k. with people acting in his house as he does?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

---

I don't tink his book sneed

---

quote:

---

What he/she said.

---

I'm a she.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I see you're in Texas. Are you one of Kat's friends?
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*checks* You're in Dallas!

No, but she should be. I'm thinking about getting people together to go and see Ira Glass on Friday in Fort Worth. Do you want to come? If so, e-mail me.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Kat responded to something that I posted! I will have to write this in my calendar.

Now, I think only Belle is still ignoring me.
 

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Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
 
<-- ignores Stormy big time
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 

 

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Posted by Sal (Member # 3758) on :
 
*pat, pat*

<-- resumes ignorance
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Long day. Very, very bad day , in fact. I'm not usually that bad a typist.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I recall an OSC post somewhere in which he talked about the kind of criticism that truly bothered him. If I remember correctly, he started by likening his books to his children. Once the book is finished and published "out there." Telling him about errors and flaws in it is just hurtful to him. Like you were taking shots at one of his kids.

On the other hand, he has on at least one occasion asked fans here at Hatrack for help in making a new story (one still in the writing) consistent with what's gone before. And, during that exercise if an inconsistency or problem was pointed out, he actually used it in some creative way to make the new story fit with and extend the old.

So, there's really two things to keep in mind:

- There's a time and place for it.
- If he asks, that'd be a good time & place

Does anyone else remember this? Maybe I'm just thinking he said this when he never did. Or someone else said it on his behalf and now I think he said it?

Maybe I said it before and think it was brilliant so it must be something OSC said.


 

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Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
 
No, that rings a bell. I think freedom of discourse trumps everything, but since this is more or less private property, my opinion doesn't count.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Freedom of expression trumps. So why can't we tell someone so if we think they have been rude? I'm speaking in generalities, here, and not only of the most recent incident. Heavens knows I've been rude myself.

Though I think a lot of what has gone one in the Hatch Hillary thread warrants shutting the site down, on both sides IMHO. And in that atomosphere, whining about his work could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
 
From What to Expect at an OSC Signing

quote:

---

Criticisms. OSC has no illusion that everybody likes all his books equally. But he likes all his books. So perhaps a signing is not the occasion to tell him which of his books you did not care for. After all, you would hardly say to a parent you just met, "I really love all your children except Bucky. He's ugly and he smells." It might be true, but the parent does not want to hear it. (Besides, what exactly can OSC do about it? The book you didn't like has already been published.) If, on the other hand, you found a specific typographical error, internal contradiction, or historical or scientific error in a book, it would be kind of you to write a note about it and give it to him so that he has it in writing and can pass it along to the editor of the next edition.

---

What both he and his personal assistant Kathleen have told me in the past is that such criticisms (internal contradiction, historical or scientific error) are usually only useful between when the hardback comes out and when the paperback does, because those changes (if necessary) can be made in that paperback version. Changes are a pain, and except for unusual circumstances, there are really only two versions -- once the paperback is out, that's pretty much it for changes.

I suppose stylistic comments could be useful, because they needn't apply to a specific novel. However, since he's an award-winning best-seller-writing published author of 50+ books, and most of us are, well, fans, maybe he doesn't need our help.

--Pop
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
I'm soooo glad I have not even looked in the Hillary/Hatch thread. I really don't get why folks are so wigged about baptisms for the dead. I'm not LDS, but as religious practices go... that seems totally benign to me.

But then, to me, so does speaking in tongues and the doctrine of transubstantiation, which both seem to have cause kerfluffles of their own, historically speaking.

I usually don't mind observing that sort of religious discussion; to me it's sort of fascinatingly alien. Like watching the little red ants and the big black ants duke it out. I don't understand why they do what they do, but I still find it compelling.

P.S. I used the ant analogy to illustrate the 'otherness' I feel when I see people getting all het up about things that I frankly don't understand why anyone would get het up about, not to belittle people of religious feeling (who I can admit that I genuinely envy).
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Having said all that, I do have one teeny tiny criticism.

I've noticed over the years a distinct tendency in OSC's writing to never (not once) refer to me.

And while it might be expected in some of his early -- need I say "less mature" -- offerings, I find it shocking that he persists in this shocking omission right up until the present day.

Now sure, you're saying to yourself, he had a contest and it was won by Papa Moose, and he's even asked for assistance on some things and mentioned every person who actually came through for him at that time. So perhaps it's my own fault for not going to EnderCon or not providing some feedback.

But you'd be wrong.

You see, OSC writes about me all the time. He just never uses my name. And that's just plain irksome. I think he's even doing it on purpose.

I read his stuff and I see myself ALL OVER it. My mechanical eyes. My brilliance in tactical warfare. My ability to summon shapes out of rocks. But does he ever once say "oh, that's Bob?" No!!!

So, please take this minor quibble as the tiny speck of sand that it is. An irritant from which a pearl may someday form. If only he would recognize who and what he's been writing about all these years and give me my due.

Maybe he could put it in a footnote or something.

Or mention me in an interview.

"Oh, that's got Bob all over it."

Is it asking too much?

I don't think so.


 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Really, pooka? I actually thought that thread was fairly civil. By and large....
 

---

Posted by Amanecer (Member # 4068) on :
 

 

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Posted by lcarus (Member # 4395) on :
 
I stopped keeping up after the third page . . . I stop keeping up with most debates after the third page . . . but I didn't see too much that was really awful in those three pages.

(Not that I didn't see anything objectionable, because I did, but that I didn't see so much of it that I would think Hatrack should be shut down for it.)
 

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Posted by aretee (Member # 1743) on :
 
Bob, I know how you feel. Now, I haven't the posting record you do, but I did drive ALL night, from Missouri to South Carolina, to attend his writing workshop one summer. (I fell asleep during one of lectures because I was driving all night long and that was embarrassing, but I apologized to him whilst he signed a book.)

I DID go to EndCon. I bought two T-shirts and countless books.

I traveled a number of hours to attend a book signing after teaching all day long. Then, while we were standing in line I overheard some people wondering out loud about OSC and his life and I answered all their questions about his kids, and early life and eating habits, so they wouldn't bore him with those details and he still fails to recognize be at the next book signing.

I mean, I have a picture with him and he's got his arm around me! You think he'd remember, but I still have yet to be remembered. It's not like he meets thousands of people a year.

So, I'll just have to follow him around some more. I was there when Papa Moose won the trivia game. I was pleased to see his name in The Crystal City.

Oh, and OSC asked for help with Shadow Puppets. I still have the exerpt downloaded on my computer.
 

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Posted by LadyDove (Member # 3000) on :
 
Bob-
I've noticed your name mentioned on several occasions. I'm sure you'll recognize it once you know he's trying to be subtle, subliminal even, by spelling your name backwards.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Trogdor,

I think you are correct about the nature and necessity of feedback. I also tend to agree that the communication of feedback if it is to be constructive should be couched in certain terms, "buttered" as it were. But, I also agree with the folks who point out the "living room" nature of this forum. In that context - given the sheer volume of off-the-cuff posts made in that "living room", I would think it safe to assume that most criticisms made are conditioned on fandom. In other words, burying criticism within a spouting of adulation would seem unnecessary, here. An exercise in parlorship nicety?

fallow

[ April 20, 2004, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
Oh great, once again I am generating publicity for threads specifically because I don't like them. I guess this is why they say "no such thing as bad publicity".
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Utah just made a general comment on the book. I don't see harm done. So what? He didn't like the book. Oh well. It was done in a confessions thread. Give'm a break. I read the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan, but that doesn't mean I liked every book that has been written so far. There are people here who will criticize others left and right to a very strong degree, but somehow Utah is wrong for a light hearted comment?
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Utah did appologize. Does that not mean anything?
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Card's always pissed off about something or bordering on boiling-over pissed-offedness about something, even if it's something innocuous to the masses - a dire spotlight of perceived uncivility with a grand heaping of disincongruity will shine.

fallow
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Tell you what. He can have my job. I'm in the Navy, and am grossly underpaid. In the civilian market someone with my job gets paid about $80,000 a year......starting pay. I'm lucky to reach $20,000. Out of that about 30% is taken out for taxes. I have a job that is protested (nuclear power). I am involved in a war that is under vast scrutinee, and is not supported by a majority of the public. We also seem to not be needed as I guess most Americans seem to think they have it sooo bad living in the USA. I still wonder why they haven't left.

For the war statement. I was on the USS Carl Vinson when 9/11 happened. Yes, I was involved. We were the first to start dropping bombs.

Due to the lack of job security in the civilian market I am forced to reenlist again. I have a job. It may not pay much, but I can live on what I make. There are others of us out there that can't. The pay does not bode well for those with families. I do know sailors/soldiers who have to use food stamps.

Due to operational commitments I have been home for Christmas once in the last 5 years, and only once for Easter. I celebrated a birthday in Boot Camp. I see my parents (or any of my family) twice a year. In fact, I use up so little of my leave that I am forced to go on leave before the end of the fiscal year, or lose some of the days accumulated.

Medical and dental may be paid for, but you get what YOU pay for. In other words it sucks.

I hope he's happy in his writing. I sincerely do. And one day I hope to do what I want to do. I just can't do it now. I need a security blanket called a pension check to help me if I fail due to a poor job market.

If ya think I is askin fer sympathy, then forget it. I just wanted to put this out.

[ April 20, 2004, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
*lights a stogie for Stan*



[ April 20, 2004, 03:52 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Not a bad idea. It's almost time to go to sleep. I have to work 2nd shift in a locked shift (7 days no days off). Yeah! Testing our equipment is finally going to happen. Sheesh, been waitin a month for this (a month of locked shift). If testing is sat, then we go back to normal. anyway, I have to smoke outside the house. cya
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
*casts a lonely glance down on cigar as the Man rushes out the door*

"couldna been otherwise"

fallow mutters in the dark, to himself, once again.

*a solitary tear trickles in ECU along the chubby cheekliness of the wouldbe hatracker*

(edited for whimsysake)

[ April 20, 2004, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
 

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Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
 

quote:

---

I find it hard to believe that someone in OSC's position wouldn't want feedback

---

quote:

---

Card's always pissed off about something or bordering on boiling-over pissed-offedness about something, even if it's something innocuous to the masses - a dire spotlight of perceived uncivility with a grand heaping of disincongruity will shine.

---

To me, that sentiment is out of line here. And it's inconsistent with my experience of meeting with Card and interacting with him and his wife through e-mail.

EDIT: and, for what it's worth, I'll delete my comment if you'll delete yours.

[ April 20, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: lcarus ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Well, I think making negative judgements on an author's personality based on his writing should always be off limits.
 

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Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 5538) on :
 
Sheesh, Xap... only an idiot would say something like that.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
I agree with Icky's last post.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
I agree with Ela's post about Icarus' post.

OSC is always gracious to his fans. He travels with his lovely wife, and they are both wonderful people who will chat with you, answer questions, sign books until the store kicks us all out, and generally have a few laughs and a few special moments.

That he makes money at this (the writing) is due to the fact that he is good at it.

One last word...Hatrack. I know that other authors do maintain websites, but take a look around here. There are places for people to go who want help with writing, places to discuss OSC works & activities, and then there's the forum just for discussing any old thing that comes to mind. This is not here for marketing. It's here because OSC thought it'd be a good idea and worth the money he spends on it.

It's a gift from him to us.

And we sometimes abuse that gift and he still keeps it going.

I'm sure the thought must cross his mind periodically to shut the place down, or at least curtail the space and bandwidth use by closing the forum. But he resists the urge. Even though he has to have moderators (Kristine and Kathy) who have to take valuable time away from real life and careers to babysit a bunch of people they've invited into their "home."

To show such disrespect as to make blanket statements about Mr. Card's personality or mindset is just plain rude.

fallow, you should at least learn some manners. Even if you really believe what you wrote (and I don't see how you could), you should have the sense and good grace to keep your fingers off the keys.

At the very least, try to let your gratitude for the good things on this site still your desire to be flippant and controversial.

Thanks!
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
See, I don't actually ever have a need to say anything negative about Card's writing. It's like...okay here goes:

I really love Ferrero Rocher chocolates. (Sorry, no accents.) They are pretty much a sublime experience. If I really tried I'm sure I could find something I don't like about them (like that fact that they go straight to my hips!) but really, it's the experience that counts. Picking out one thing you don't like is silly compared to the overall deliciousness of the rocher. So there maybe one or two things in Card's work that I don't agree with or something, but I feel like he's one of the best writers I've read, and his books do things for me that others don't do. So who cares about that other stuff?
 

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Posted by Altáriël of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
 
That's true, you have to be honest, but constructive. Its a matter of being true to yourself and those areound you. Personally, I don't feel anything wrong with OSC's writting. I devour it eagerly...
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Bob,

I'm at a bit of a loss here. I think I've minded myself pretty well for the most part, other than a regrettable episode of name-calling (along with other regrettable posts of dunderkind nature).

Maybe I should put my previous opinion in the context of what I read from Card, now. Exclusively his opinion reviews and war/world/civilization watch. From those readings, I stand by my comments and I don't see it rude or mannerless. That's what I read. Anger. Irritation of some sort at every turn. Hyper-criticality regarding the world we live in.

Maybe I'm reading too much into a print-personae or something.

fallow
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I think that he is critical of the world we live in, but that is why he is motivated to write those columns. I enjoy reading them, but he has pissed me off a few time.
But I don't come here to complain about it. If I do complain about something here, I hope I am tactful about it, and I don't expect people here to agree with me about the criticim.

I don't really see this as his house; it's a forum, and the purpose of a forum is public discussion. It's not much of a discussion if everyone agrees with everything he says. Mr Card is an adult, and I believe he is thick-skinned enough to withstand criticism; but this isn't the best place for it. This is a fan site, clearly, and most of the posters (myself included) care more about what Mr. Card had to say than what others have to say. He is a great writer, and even if I don't agree with his view, I love to read it because it is usually very well written.

So have some manners, and don't be surprised if people here become a little protective of the Cards if you criticize them. It would be really easy for the Cards to post sarcastic observations on all of our posts, but they don't. If they have a problem with something that is written in here, they are always polite, at least to my knowledge. Why is it so hard to do the same while we are guests here?

Kwea

[ April 22, 2004, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
 
Well said, Kwea. When I run forums anything goes so long as you obey netiquette. I know OSC has been online long enough to recognize the value in both halves of that statement.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Well, coming from member # 133, .....thanks!

Again, that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, it's just something that has come up three or four times in the 3 years I've been here, and I don't know why...

Seems pretty self-evident to me...

Kwea

[ April 22, 2004, 02:07 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
who's complaining?

This is a public forum for discussing OSC? Discussion includes criticism?

fallow
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Of specific points, not of his overall character. And only in a polite way. If you (or anyone) isn't a fan, at least a little, then why come here to criticise?
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Kwea has a point. An excellent one. The original post that started this thread tho wasn't criticizing OSC overall. He just said he didn't like one of his books. He didn't say that OSC was a bad author. In this sense I can't understand why he was slammed for it.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
have you read my posts (the intelligible ones)?

I'm just eager for OSC to kick the [edit]-kick he's on and get back to some challenging insightful stories. Not that he's run out of gas or anything, but I think the this right-side-o-Rooney schtick he's on is a wee bit premature.

fallow
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Personally I just want to see Kristine's "official smackdown". Would it be wrong to sell tickets?

*Imagines Kristine as a Mormon super-hero, laid back, Jello supplier in spandex*

Werid.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
hobbes,

did you just use jello and spandex in the same sentence?

definitely not nummy. no no no nummy there.

fallow
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 


That's just wrong!!!
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Actually, fallow, I think it'd be at least a good idea if posts about OSC were in the other forum, not the general interest one. So your point about this being a forum for discussing OSC and his works is really incorrect since there's separate place for that.

However, that's not nearly so big a deal as the point you appear to be missing. There's a big difference between critique and criticism. And empty or worse, malicious, personal attacks are unwelcome by anyone, not just creative people. And it's doubly bad when you do it in a place that the person PAYS FOR!!!


I know you think this is a free speech zone and the free means you should be allowed to say anything you want. That's up to our hosts, though. They own this space and they pay for its continued existence.

And again, I say, if you have something constructive to say, I'd have no problem. But so far you've just been belittling our host. I just think you'd have the sense to take it elsewhere. That's all. You're cretainly entitled to your opinion, but you have the precisely WRONG model for what Hatrack is. And because of that, you are acting in a rude and unwelcome manner.

Think
"I'm a guest." Think "I'm in their home." And then decide what you should and shouldn't say here at Hatrack.

I doubt OSC is really worried about your opinion or is actually hurt by it. But you are making me cringe in embarassment on your behalf. If this were an actual home, I would've already taken you outside and explained the situation to you. Since it's a virtual world, I can't do that.

But you are being an absolute ass and I think you need to stop.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 

quote:

---

*Imagines Kristine as a Mormon super-hero, laid back, Jello supplier in spandex*

---

Much as I don't want to bump this thread, I just had to say:

-Icarus
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
That's right. Hobbes get's even werider at night.

Hobbes
 

---

Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
I think we've all entered the Twilight Zone tonight.

-Icarus
 

---

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Why'd you go back to that login Icky? I like the orginal.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
I was in the mood for something different.

-Icarus

[ April 22, 2004, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Bob,

I haven't been able to sit down all day.

What I don't understand about your lecture is this guest-host thing? Fallow's been an ass all around as far as I can recall (intentional or accidental). If your analogy held and I were the host, I would have taken fallow's rotten self outside a long time ago for interacting the way he seems to do with the other guests. As host, I wouldn't wait for one of my other guests to take up that burden. So, I'm not sure that analogy is altogether accurate.

I don't have a model for Hatrack, so it can't be wrong or right, much less precisely.

I understand the difference between criticism and critique, and, although I thought anyone familiar with my posts would understand my lack of tact, that is apparently not the case, as your criticism informs me.

Also, I DO appreciate the good things here. That's an insult to presume I don't.

In any case, I do have a tendency to get carried away and you have my thanks for 1) keeping fallow honest and 2) addressing your concern's about fallow to me directly.

*tip-o-the-hat*

fallow
 

---

Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 

quote:

---

Why'd you go back to that login Icky? I like the orginal

---

Dontcha mean Licky?

Unless of course, we're talking about the *real* and somewhat more elusive landmark-avoiding Icarus...

imogen
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
It's cool, fallow. I haven't seen whatever started all this up again, nor do I wish to, but it isn't the first time this issue has come up here, that's all. So of the people here have been posting here so long (or often) that they feel as if this their home too, if not in the same way.

You can have whatever opinion you want, and you don't need my permission to do so, of course. I don't expect you to agree with everything I post either, and I would think you were sick if you did ....but I enjoy talking with you here, most of the time, and I don't think it is unreasonable to expect better of you than this.

Just because you say you lack tact doesn't mean it's OK to be rude. I like this place because people here, for the most part, aren't rude. Most of us feel comfortable here, and like having differing opinions present, as it gives rise to some very thought provoking discussions.

I've never had a problem with you, and you usually aren't rude to me (at least not to my face ). I just think you need to be a little more careful choosing your moments...

Kwea
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
KWEA,

what does it stand for? Kiss-Which-Ever-Ass is available?

Shall I submit my posts "of the moment" for your perusal before posting?

(actually, I happily would, as they'd most likely make more sense in the end)

fallow
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I don't have an answer for you...I don't know any words small enough for you to comprehend.

I say what I want, just like you do...but I don't need to make insipid comments in a vain attempt to make myself look better.

I can't fathom why you are here, other than to troll....and I won't bother to reply to you again, as you are not worth the effort I have already expended.

Best of luck here, for the little time you have left. You obviously need it.

Kwea
 

---

Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
fallow,

you know I've enjoyed your existential, free-form posts in some of the other threads.

I don't really have a huge problem with you.

You either get it or you don't. I can't force you to pretend you care, let alone actually care. If you don't care, you don't care.

If you do care, you'll modify your behavior. If you don't, you won't.

It's not my place to enforce the rules here. It's not my place to presume to teach you anything, either. I posted because I didn't like what you said or how you said it. Clearly kacard & Kathy Kidd are the real arbiters of your Hatrack fate. Not me.

I'm not going to blow the whistle on your posts in this thread. You might consider, however, sending an e-mail yourself to kacard with a sample of your posts about OSC and ask her if she has a problem with it as moderator of the board.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Kwea,

That last post of mine was a joke. Where did I go wrong in communicating that to you?

fallow
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Well, it didn't seem that way....in that case I owe you an apology.

I thought we got along pretty well, which is why I was offended. It is hard to tell at times when you are being flippent or serious, fallow.

I'm sorry I jumped all over you like that, if you were just kidding. I was trying to not be offensive, particularily to you, and so I felt blindsided. It can be hard when you are new here and someone who has been here a while disagrees with you, so I WAS trying to be polite. But don't ever think that I won't stand up for myself if I feel I'm being ambushed, and I don't kiss ass, ever. If I agree with someone, then I agree, but I make up my own mind...I always have.

I can't be all bad...I DID make up the goodnight thread, right? And I even use it, once and a while....

Kwea
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Bob,

quote:

---

you know I've enjoyed your existential, free-form posts in some of the other threads.

---

quote:

---

If you do care, you'll modify your behavior. If you don't, you won't.

---

I do care. (though I'm a little lost on your authority to judge how I exhibit that caringness, particularly with respect to your previous post).

fallow
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Kwea,

I thought you were being funny. I tried to respond in kind... thinking you might enjoy a ramp-up of "zingers". I was wrong.

Yes, and I do like the hello/goodnight thread.



fallow
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I'm tired, and sick still....and I was being a little tongue in cheek...

I should have given you the benefit of the doubt, I guess.

Enough said, as far as I'm concerned, I'll try not to jump the gun next time....
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
*ka-pow, ka-blam, ka-blooie*

where's that thread?

fallow
 

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Posted by kacard (Member # 200) on :
 
You guys know I post rarely -- because I'm not the writer in the family But I feel like some of you have been expecting some kind of "smackdown" or at least clarification of the host/moderator view on this.

One thing OSC cares deeply about is the importance of community-building and how that is done in a positive way. We have tried not to impose our opinions on this forum, but rather set up the ground rules of civil discourse that we expect. I've used the living room analogy a lot myself. Mostly, those who care about Hatrack help newcomers understand what is expected, and there is no need for the mods to do anything. (Though, I'm sure most of you notice that there are those whose learning curves seem to be very very long -- I've been pleased with the patience I've seen.)

No one has ever been banned or censured for the opinions they express. As long as they stick to explaining and supporting their opinions -- not name-calling or character assassination or psycho-analyzing those with a different opinion. (Well I take that back, early on we banned someone for advocating an action that was so far over the line of human decency that it could not exist in a forum based on compassionate human discourse -- no don't ask me, I'm not saying what it was -- but that is something altogether different.)

I have appreciated the thoughts expressed by many of you here about what kind of feedback and discussion is appropriate, so I don't have much to add to that.

BUT -- there is one important point that MUST be clarified. This forum is not about being careful of how we disagree with the host -- it is about being careful about how we discuss and disagree with EVERYBODY!!!

We expect respectful discourse no matter WHOSE books, opinions, choices, taste, philosophy of life, religion, or whatever you are discussing.

So -- thanks for the kind words from so many of you, thanks for helping those new to the community learn what kind of place this is.

Kristine

P.S. Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you. Aretee -- sorry you never hear us say just before you walk up "Remember not to recognize Aretee, or she'll stop coming back." Hobbes -- nobody at this house eats jello. (edited to add a smiley face for Hobbes)

[ April 23, 2004, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: kacard ]
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Headlines read: "Kristine smacks down Hobbes's world view, poor, innocent tiger may never recover"



Hobbes
 

---

Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 

quote:

---

Jello supplier in spandex

---

quote:

---

BUT -- there is one important point that MUST be clarified. This forum is not about being careful of how we disagree with the host -- it is about being careful about how we discuss and disagree with EVERYBODY!!!

We expect respectful discourse no matter WHOSE books, opinions, choices, taste, philosophy of life, religion, or whatever you are discussing.

So -- thanks for the kind words from so many of you, thanks for helping those new to the community learn what kind of place this is.

---

One of the many reasons why I love this place. Thanks for making it possible for us to meet here.
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
kristine,

Thanks. Muchos gracias, and domo arigato.



If I could offer up a small comment (something I've advocated in my previous posts - that musta gotten lost in the chaotropism) - entering into this forum is a bit of a gauntlet (counts chalk marks on the wall). I don't really see why it should be that way. Not having met most (99.9999%) of the folks here, my perspective on the forum is about the same as it was 5 days into posting. (that is a critique, not a criticism)

I really like the idea of a welcoming thread (one that is maintained). A meet-'n'-greet thread. That would take some tedious time commitment.

anyhow. On with the nonsense!

fallow
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"my perspective on the forum is about the same as it was 5 days into posting"

This, fallow, is because you're tiresomely self-absorbed; you operate entirely in a universe of your own devising, in a world you've constructed completely within your head.

You've often commented that you think of this place as fictional, and its inhabitants -- including yourself -- as unreal personas.

[ April 23, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
TD,

I thought tiresome self-absorption was the bread and butter of this forum? Far be it from me to deviate!

*licks self*

fallow
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
^flippant^

Seriously, though, TD. What's with the out-of-the-woodwork commentary?

fallow
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Frankly, I'm starting to find you boring. You play a few too many deliberate mind games, and troll more than a little too often. And you can only blink your eyes innocently and say "who, me?" so many times before I stop giving you the benefit of the doubt.

I think you know perfectly well what you mean to say, and I think you know perfectly well when you're being inflammatory, hurtful, snarky, or callow. But I think you've gotten away with it by keeping your tone light, cryptic, and occasionally baffled. Sooner or later, though, you're going to have to decide whether you want to become emotionally invested in this place or whether you're just going to continue to treat us like rats in your imaginary maze.

Honestly, I've thought of you for some time as a somewhat more literate version of want2write.

[ April 24, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
TD,

The bottom line is that at the end of the day, from soup to nuts, whether you like my fictious leveraging or not, I frankly don't give a darn.

(except as a flippancy op)

fallow
 

---

Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"I frankly don't give a darn."

Oh, I know. That was my original point, in fact; that's PRECISELY why you're no closer to understanding this forum or the people who post here than you were on your first post.
 

---

Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 

quote:

---

Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you.

---

Okay, I'm having that one embroidered on a pillow or something.



kacard, you know, the neatest thing is that you just managed to tell us all off and praise us at the same time. I need to learn how to do that. You are one of those people to whom it always pays to attend.

[ April 24, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Can you two go squabble elsewhere?

I'm trying to wrap my mind around the fact that Mikhail and Bob_Scopatz are the same person, and you're distracting me.

Shoo.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Oh no. The Keeper of the Earth and Bob_Scopatz are the. . . same. . . person.


 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Is this true, Scott? I am so out of it.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Hey, everyone raves about kacard-- all I know is that above, she definitely said:

quote:

---

Bob -- so glad you finally figured out every single OSC character is based on you.

---

I think that's pretty conclusive.
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Oh, dear, I was on a whole other tangent, thinking they were screen names.
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Wait, wait. Does that mean that Bob is The Hive Queen????
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Holy crap, IT DOES!
 

---

Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Even more disturbing, Bob is the little baby with flipper feet that gets flushed down a toilet.
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
The Sister of the Faith!!!

Sister Carlotta!!!

(forgot her name)

[ April 24, 2004, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

---

Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Bob is also a little onanistic monkey.
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Holy Discovery, batman! Bob Scopatz is Christopher Columbus!
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
I don't think we can actually qualify Chris Columbus as an OSC character...he's not an original.

[ April 24, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Well, OK PSIT, let's compromise, and say that OSC's depiction of Chris Columbus was based on Bob.
 

---

Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Oh, definitely.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Bob is Jane, Bob is Meb,
Bob's a sister who is dead,
Bob is Ender, Bob's the Queen,
Bob is Beauty, and just as mean.
Bob is everyone to you and me--
And most important to OSC.


 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Ha ha ha.

Bob's the mean old blacksmith
And Al's brother Calvin, too
He's a little bit of me
And of "piggy" people, too.

He communicates through ansible
And vibrations in the air
He is Bob, though, and we love him
Even with his real long hair.

[ April 24, 2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Al's brother's name is Calvin-- but good job anyway.
 

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Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
Thank you Hatrack for helping me to see the error of my ways. If I had known beforehand the reprocussions that would evolve from my "rude" remark, I promise I would never had said it. I realize now that one must have a thick skin to be part of this community (more than a lurker).
I appreciate and thank those few of you who saw that I did not mean anything malicious with my "confession." I was very surprised that it was labeled as rude.
I enjoy coming here once in awhile to see what everyone is interested in and thinking about and sometimes I like to add my two cents worth. Anyone who thinks I am out to criticize or be rude to the Cards is totally off track about me. As I have said previously, I LOVE OSC's books and have read almost all of them. I also recommend him to everyone that will listen. I seriously hope to meet him someday.
I shouldn't have said what I did on this forum. Kat was right to call me on it, but she also expected me to understand what she was freaked out about (Cards were going to shut down the forum.) and I didn't. I didn't know the ins and outs of this website. I also didn't know all of the previous postings about such comments. Without excuses, I apologize for the second time.
So, with this said, can we all move on?

By the way, I'm a she. (Someone referred to me as "he" in their post.)

[ April 24, 2004, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: UTAH ]
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
UTAH, I don't think you were rude. And I think that Kat posted out of reaction to a general trend lately, including other people who truly HAVE been rude in the last few weeks, most notably on the other side. And so I don't think Kat was responding primarily to you, but that your post was just the occasion. I wouldn't feel too bad about it if I were you. And don't put blinders on: many people posted to say that you were not out of line.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Utah, I wasn't saying anything about your posts. I went back to read what you'd written and you've already edited it, so I can't even say whether I thought it was unwarranted or not.

Basically, I think as long as it isn't a personal attack it's probably okay. Read kacard's post above for her views on it. She and Kathy Kidd are in charge of that anyway, not any of us.

I'm sorry you felt like we dog-piled you. Things work better when we welcome newcomers rather than jump all over them for their honestly expressed views.
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"Al's brother's name is Calvin-- but good job anyway."

I know that, Scott. But because of the general "OSC bases all characters on Bob" comment, then he would also be Al's brother. It just fit into the rhyme scheme of my deeply intellectual poem, that's all.
 

---

Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Um. . . You said 'And Al's brother Caleb, too'


 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Ach! I did! Apologies all around! I am going to change it, though, so beware that it will make your post sound silly, and then you will have to delete it. I will leave mine up in pennance.
ha ha.

Also, I cannot really remember a character who communicated through vibrations in the air, but was hoping no one would notice that, or else just think of a character who could.

[ April 24, 2004, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Most of OSC's characters communicate that way....
It's called speech!

That's all sound waves are, right?

Kwea
 

---

Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Ha ha! Yes, it is! Thanks.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
No problem!


Kwea
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
I'm lost.
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
It was part of her poem; she used a line (just for a rime.. ) that made comment about communicating by vibrations in the air; she didn't realize..

You know, it isn't nearly as funny if you try to explain it....

nevermind....

Kwea
 

---

Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 

quote:

---

You know, it isn't nearly as funny if you try to explain it....

---