Could I ask for collective help? I have been put in charge of developing my schools webpage. Although I am trained in psychology and switching to education, I am somehow in charge of running the network at a middle school. I am the computer guru.
Funny thing is....I'm not.
I was given Adobe GoLive 5.0 to use, but I haven't found the user guide yet. My question: Is there another editor I can use that is easier, anything free on the web, or does anyone have experience with GoLive 5.0 or have a users manual?
Thanks for any responses.
Posted by beatnix19 (Member # 5836) on :
I've used navigator and FrontPAge. Both pretty easy. I think Navigator is free through Netscape but FrontPage is Microsoft and I doubt old Bill gives too much away for free. Wish I could help you more but these two are all I've used.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
FrontPage sucks. Badly. And the sites it creates are not accessible at all. Come to think of it, public school sites are probably required to conform to certain accessibility guidelines under the ADA and related acts . . .
But whatever. I highly recommend Nvu ( http://nvu.com ). Or learning how to code by hand.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
(nvu is free and related to netscape/mozilla's web page editing capabilities).
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
Because you don't have much else, I might suggest using NVU which is a free web editor, though as a warning, it's still under development (though they're progressing reall fast). Also, there is the 30-day trial 30 day trial for Dreamweaver, though you'd probably need something to use for longer than 30 days. And of course there are lots of people on here that would probably be more than happy to give some tips if you need help.
:: pokes fugu for typing faster than me :: Satyagraha
[ April 21, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: BYuCnslr ]
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
I agree completey, my school webadmin has used dreamweaver in nothing but graphical mode...and it's my job this summer to redo it, I'm not looking foward to doing that. But if you're unexperienced, and aren't planning on doing anything but use a graphical editor, it's the best out there. Satyagraha
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Dreamweaver is good; I am forced to use FrontPage here at work, and it sucks, but it is doable.
I always recommend that anyone wanting to even begin to build web pages -- take a course in basic HTML. At least know the basics. It will help a lot no matter which editor you end up using...
FG
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ayelar, while the photoshop to web page approach is effective in certain ways, for most web pages its really not appropriate. Photoshop designs are by their nature static (though some work may be done to allow for modifying that later), and a good web page presents its content in a way that accomodates itself to the viewer's needs. It is flexible.
Particularly on a web page that needs to convey a lot of content in a very effective manner to a diverse population, such as a school web page, flexibility is key. It should resize to different browser resolutions, it shouldn't break when a person enlarges the text (use relative size specifications), it should present the information to as many different browsers as possible (including text browsers, which photoshop pages often break in), and more.
As a related note, for any pages with text paragraphs on them it should have links to printer friendly pages (as well as specifying a print stylesheet).
Alexa, my AIM name is fugu13 and my email fugu13[AT]mac[DOT]com. If you have any questions about building the web page, large or small, give a holler.
Posted by Altįriėl of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
You only need three programs to make an awsome webpage. PHOTOSHOP DREAMWEAVER NOTEPAD with these three, life is simple.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
Good point, fugu, and I agree with you. My own pages certainly suffer from lack of flexibility.
However, since she's new to this, and not working on the next cnn.com or anything, I feel like using Photoshop to get the idea of what the site will look like is a great idea. But.... that's just me, and I'll definitely be trying to incorporate more fluid elements in the future.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
uh, not to continue to rip on Dreamweaver or anything, but Alt, is your page supposed to display like this?
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
This has all been very helpful. I have inherited a partially started web page, I am not sure if I am going to continue to use it.
It looks like the person used the cut a Photoshop approach. I may need to continue that format, unless I do a complete overhaul from ground up. I actually didn't know that using Photoshop is what the old employee attempted, but after reading the posts and fiddling with the program, I now know better thanks.
Fugu,
If the Photoshop approach is too static, do you recommend just using HTML? I bought a book and read it-- I now have a feel for basic HTML. I even made a few practice pages. OR do you recommend I stick to a nvu?
I have downloaded NVU and it looks a lot like GoLive 5.0. I may have an outdated program, as GoLive is up to 7.0 I think.
Why do I agree to these projects?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Are you going to have to do frequent updates, Alexa? Like lots of updates to school calendars, lunch menus, sporting events, etc?
Or is everything going to be pretty static once you get it built?
Farmgirl
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
My general suggestion is to play around with visual ideas in a program like photoshop (or even better, on paper), then figure out ways to realize them using html instead of just cutting up a photoshopped page. Don't think of your photoshopping as being the page, but as being a collection of elements you are going to position on the page. And by elements I mean in a cohesive sense -- don't slice them up unless you have to.
The best way is to write the source code yourself for a site like this, not using something like dreamweaver (at least in graphics only mode) or Nvu. I sometimes use Dreamweaver as a previewing html editor -- doing almost all the editing in the html frame, while watching the preview frame. More often though, I use a program called BBEdit (Mac only, unfortunately) which has really good tools for writing code (excellent syntax highlighting, and wizards to generate most any tag out there). A similarly good editor for *nix is the Bluefish HTML editor.
Heh, Ayelar, CNN.com is an excellent example of a ill-suited static design However, with them its because they're stuck with a really old content management system.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Well, My contract is a year contract. Hopefully I will be teaching next year. There will be a calander/events section that will need to be updated. I would like to make it very simple for the next person who replaces me to be able to do the updates with no problems, as he/she will probably have LESS expereince on computers then me.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Find a student to do it .
Seriously, though, talk to me via IM or email. Send or tell me some graphics ideas for how you might want it to look, and I'll give you ideas and pointers on how to transform that look into HTML + CSS.
Posted by Ayelar (Member # 183) on :
BBEdit: It doesn't suck.
Lol, fugu, I knew I should have said amazon.com.
Just when I think I'm getting a hang of the "right" way to do things... Oh well. Next time. Ahh yes, the upcoming next redesign of ajamation.com. Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Thank you fugu13, I am going to take you up on that.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Ayelar: Not every web page needs to be designed that way. For instance, your page is presenting your animation and graphic design capabilities, and as such isn't focusing so much on text based content. Its fine if it isn't all that flexible in that regard.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Ayelar, you worked for Apple?!?!
*jealous*!!
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
And add me to the list of helpers if you'd like. I'm not quite to fugu-esque command, but I can hang with his type.
Hand-written HTML + CSS is honestly the easiest way to do it, once you learn the basics.
They are due for a content refresh, as some of their info is getting out of date a bit, I think.
-Bok
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I highly recommend working out the basics in a text editor. When you rely on graphic design programs it can become extremely difficult to track down mistakes like missing slashes and things.
For my initial designs, I use a pad of paperTM and a pencilTM. I sketch out the page layout, the menus, elements like logos or graphics, content areas, and copyright info. This also lets me work out the css required.
Up until recently I used HomeSite for all my HTML work. Now I use Dreamweaver for design (with the design/code windows turned on, it's still faster for me to type in code than it is to figure out the little buttons ) and I use HomeSite or Notepad for quick changes or tricky problem diagnosis.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I've always been kind of curious what the benefits are, if any, to using software like Dreamweaver. I've always done all of my HTML (and more recently, CSS, JavaScript, and PHP) in a text editor (initially Notepad, now Vim), and I'm pretty happy with how things turn out.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Bokonon, That is a GREAT site!
Posted by Altįriėl of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Actually, no. My page is supposed to look like this: http://hostultra.com/namarie.jpg (Copy and paste this into your browser, hostultra has hotlinking protection on, if you access any files other than .htl, or .php via a foreign link, a 404 error comes up) You just have to wait for the entire image to load. Its better to use IE on a Windows compy. You get cool scrollbar effects and such...^.^;;
[ April 21, 2004, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: Altįriėl of Dorthonion ]
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
Webmonkey is also a good resource!
Posted by Altįriėl of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
And ofcourse, the must have Lissa Explains it All.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
You know, ripping on Dreamweaver because so many non-professionals who use it don't understand the idea of clean code is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. Yes, older versions of DW were just Macromedia-run versions of FrontPage (which means lots of arbitrary and unnecessary code). However, the last two versions of it have been absolutely clean, and as long as the person using it has some idea of how the code works, then the pages are flawless no matter what browser is being used.
No application is going to make you a better web developer. None. Anyone who believes thatnot that anyone has claimed that so farshould not be trusted doing web work.
Alexa, there is no quick answer for your needs. I would suggest using the KISS (keep it simple, stupid) method from the start when designing ittry to envision what you want on a piece of paper first. Know what you're going to aim for before even beginning to apply it. Next, go to your nearest bookstore and get a beginner's book for creating web pages. O'Reilly and SAMS are good books to look for. For later on, use the books as a reference to learn more, and try things out.
Dreamweaver is a good program, but it won't solve your problems. You would have to learn how to utilize Dreamweaver to use its full capabilities. Don't try things you don't understand the workings of with it. Mistakes could be made which would be... disappointing.
Even with the WYSIWYG (what-you-see-is-what-you-get) editors, which is what Dreamweaver is, you should still look into a good text editor. If you use Windows, do not use Word or Wordpad for editing text files for web pages. Even notepad is not recommended, though it's fairly adequate. I suggest TextPad, though it's totally your choice.
If you use Windows, I suggest using Filezilla for transferring files from the machine you do the work on to the server which will be displaying the pages by using FTP. Windows can do it without an outside program, but programs like Filezilla are easier and free.
The recommendations for NVU is nice and all, but ultimately useless if you do not have Linux installed on your computer, which I'd guess you wouldn't be asking these questions if you were running Linux as your desktop. You are going to have to either use Adobe GoLive or buy another editor. If you just want to try GoLive and want to find manuals, poke around on Adobe's website. They have downloadable documentation for most of their products. Also, you can try doing some Google searches for GoLive tutorials, as they may help.
Ultimately, though, don't listen to everyone who claims to have the solution for you, because every solution is different and not everyone is the same. Everything I put here are suggestions, not answers. The plain truth is that you're going to have to find the answers yourself. The best I can do is point you to some good sources for answers.
[edit] just like those other sources in the last few posts. Great links, guys!
[ April 21, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: John L ]
Posted by Altįriėl of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Thats true. But I don't see why notepad is not recommended, if your study the code in raw. Thats pretty freakin' wierd...
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
if you want to work with the actual text for webpages, I suggest using Crimson Editor, which is also free (and free is good), which is considerably better than Textpad's $29, and it does about as much. The reason we don't use things like notepad is because notepad doesn't do anything, while editors like textpad, and crimson editor as long as it knows what type of file it's editing (which it judges by the file type) they'll configure themselves to colour code known handles like this As another note NVU development isn't only for Linux, they have it ported to Windows as well, and are soon to be releasing an OSX port in a month or so. Satyagraha
[ April 21, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: BYuCnslr ]
Posted by Lissande (Member # 350) on :
quote: And of course, the must have Lissa Explains it All.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
TextPad is shareware, which means you can use it for free. You get all the full capabilities, and the only thing that could be labeled obtrusive is that it asks you whether you'd like to purchase the product when you save. You don't have to spend 29 bucks to use it. I never have. Also, it has lists of common commands for many languages, including HTML, all accessible from a drop-down menu on the left side. Crimson editor looks close, but TextPad has more helpful features right up front.
By the way, free is not always better... but that's a whole `nother discussion.
It's good to know that NVU has a Windows port. Perhaps they should let people know that on their front page.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
I really can't thank you enough. This one thread has saved me so much time and pointed me in directions I never new existed.
As I am designing this, I realize that I have my screen set at 1024X768 pixels. Will this make a difference in my web-page? Is there a standard setting I should work with to make sure my page fits the most amount of computers properly?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Alexa, a good web designer will design a page for multiple screen resolutions. If you're an educational institution, you are federally required to meet ADA guidelines, which include multiple resolutions and text-only browsers.
I'll level with you: I don't think you're up to this. I don't mean to sound unhelpful about this, but I don't think there's any way that you're going to create both an attractive and ADA-compliant site at a professional level with nothing more than a basic understanding of early HTML.
Given the number of young students who're really into this kind of thing, and the number of desperately unemployed -- or, rather, "freelance" -- web designers out there, I think you'd find it a better use of your time (which is money) to hire someone to do this page for you. Hourly rates are quite reasonable, and I think they'll be worth the investment.
Basically, I'm skeptical that anyone here will be able to teach you the fundamental principles of decent design without basically doing the site for you -- and while there are people here who, I have no doubt, would be willing to basically do the site for you, I'd recommend that you talk to the school and see if they're not willing to pony up some actual cash.
You work for a school. Would the school ask the janitor to teach a French class? If not, why do they expect you to make a website?
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Tom, not all schools meet ADA requirements. In fact, I've seen many that don't.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
800x600 has been the web standard for a long time; that's the usual resolution for a 15" monitor.
The BEST way is to not have it designed for any resolution at all. Depending on your layout, you may want to fix the size of your navigation panels, but the main content section should try to remain relative to the size of the browser window itself.
Oh, and here's two hints (that are sorta advanced, but I'll put them down for later reference):
1) Use divs and spans, not tables. Unless you are actually displaying tabular data.
2) To keep your html/css as browser-agnostic as possible, "zero" out your margins and paddings on basic html tags (body, div, span, table, etc). Each browser has different default padding/margin values, and can drive one crazy when trying to get a page to look the same in two browsers.
2b) When in doubt, make sure the page looks good in IE. Since 95+% of people use it, make sure it looks right.
-Bok
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Bok speaks true. So true.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Oh, and here is another
2c) Just because you should follow 2b), that doesn't mean you should write non-standards-compliant html if you can help it. Use the CSS Validator and HTML Validator to keep your code clean.
-Bok
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Preach on, brotha-man!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I highly recommend downloading the Web Developer plugin (it works with the mozilla family of browsers). With it, you can easily do many of the tasks you need to do with a website (such as validate), view all the CSS applied to the site (not just the CSS file, but also CSS listed inline and as parts of elements), check form variables, and tons more that make developing with it much easier.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
The good thing is that I really have a lot of free time at work. Whether I get next years web page completed in a professional manner is certainly suspect, however, I am going to take the next month and give it my best.
There is no better time to learn then now. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
True. But given how cheap professional web design is nowadays, couldn't you put your time to better use doing something like, say, learning how to administrate the network?
I'm sorry; this is just a pet peeve of mine. For some reason, around 2001, people seemed to come to the conclusion that you could randomly pluck somebody off the street and make them a "computer person" because they knew their way around Microsoft Office. I made a ridiculous amount of money in those years as a freelance consultant; my angle, SPECIFICALLY, was that I'd come into a building and audit it for free, and they wouldn't have to pay me unless I found something seriously wrong. I never ONCE left a building without getting paid, and most of the time it was because the places that called me in were dimly aware that their "computer person" was in fact somebody with a history degree and a personal home page.
I could be reading too much into this, but the whole "funny thing is....I'm not" section suggests to me that you, as often happens, woke up and found yourself thrown into network administration and web page design without any solid experience in either.
I wouldn't ask someone to be a surgeon without being an actual surgeon; I wouldn't ask someone to administrate a network without being a network administrator.
At the end of the day, this stuff -- while easily comprehensible to someone who wants to put the time into it, I believe -- takes time and lots of practice to learn. My gut feeling, speaking as someone who's seen lots of minor network problems ultimately bring an organization to its knees (things like the accumulation of BadMail/Exlogs, hacked servers hosting hundreds of movies, etc.), is that you'd be better off using your time -- even as copious as it is -- to learn how to administrate your network, and off-load the web design to the much cheaper and much more readily available experts who are already out there, desperately looking for work.
Quite frankly, I'm also motivated by a sense of justice; it seems highly unfair to the huge number of laid-off professionals I know, many of whom are remarkably talented, that you're not even considering going to a professional for the work.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
That is a good point. I will take that into consideration.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
*nods*
Also, in this particular case you'd want to exercise some care in choosing a web designer. You don't just need a well designed web page from an aesthetic (and update) perspective, you need a well designed page from an accessibility perspective, which is beyond the ken of many web designers.
Posted by Altįriėl of Dorthonion (Member # 6473) on :
Lissa Explains it all is a website that offers GREAT html help and stuff. go to http://www.lissaexplains.com i learned a lot of html from this site when I was a begeinner.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
While Lissa Explains It All seems to get the basics pretty well, it doesn't much get into the more refined and messy details of web design. A good place to start, but not to finish.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
Thank you so much everyone. I am well steeped into my page design. I will post it when I am done.
Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
Yes, there is another editor, and you know waht it is?
WordPad
Or notepad, but I perfer wordpad.
EDIT: A good free alt to ant FTP client is IE. That is pretty much the only thing IE is good for.
For images, MSPaint.
You don't have to spend anything to make a webpage.
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thanks.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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