This is topic Required Reading in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
The vast majority of the population considers reading an optional time-passing activity. Some even say that it is a mark of laziness; they reference the old saying "Idle hands are the Devil's playground."

I, however, believe otherwise. Books are a tool for mankind, chronicling our history; our mistakes and our successes, victories and losses. They allow, perhaps more than any other media, the expansion of the mind. This expansion not only means a gain of "knowledge," but a stimulis for creativity and overall cognitive abilities.

With this in mind, I present a small but ever-growing list of books that provide a means for the betterment of the mind. While many appear to be dry lecture material, this peels away on a second glance. Take Isaac Asimov's I, Robot, for example. On the surface it appears to be a brief sci-fi story about aritificial intelligence. Upon a closer examination, however, it reveals itself to be a stunningly insightful commentary on the Human mentality. From Mrs. Weston's blatant bigotry to the more subtle statements made by the intricacies yielded by the Three Laws which make robots better humans than humans themselves, I, Robot shows the details of humanity that we may never think about because of society's unspoken consensus.

So, without further ado, the List:

Voltaire Candide
Dante Alighieri The Inferno
Aldous Huxley Brave New World
Isaac Asimov I, Robot
Plato The Republic
George Orwell 1984
Joseph Heller Catch 22
Fyodor Dostoevsky Crime and Punishment
Thomas Pynchon The Crying of Lot 49
Ray Bradbury Fahrenheit 451
Karl Marx The Communist Manifesto
(Left Blank for a good reason) The Holy Bible
(Left Blank for a good reason) The Qu'ran
(Left Blank for a good reason) The Book of Mormon
(Left Blank for a good reason) Most other religious texts. Why? For the vast majority of humanity, it forms the basis of moral and social structure.

This list is far from complete. There are many literary aficionados that peruse this sight, and I am requesting your input.

Note that I am not asking for your favorite novel or anything of the like. If that is what I wanted, then Mario Puzo's The Godfather would most certainly grace the list.

The full list, which is being constantly updated from over 5 input sources, is on my site: www.xanga.com/lot49

[ April 22, 2004, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: HRE ]
 

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Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
 
Slaughterhouse-Five and Cat's Cradle, by Kurt Vonnegut.
Gandhi's autobiography.
Lonesome Dove, By Larry McMurtry.
Of Human Bondage, By W. Somerset Maughm.

The entire Calvin and Hobbes collection, as well.
 

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Posted by UTAH (Member # 5032) on :
 
Why Farenheit 451? I've never read it. What's it about? Just curious. My kids had to read it for high school, but they never said anything about it when they were reading it.

[ April 22, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: UTAH ]
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey

nobody should for any reason EVER read Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Ben: Agreed!! Only about Ayn Rand.

Farenheit 451 is passable. The laudable premise does not forgive the miserable characterization. It suceeds as treatise but fails as literature.

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To Kill a Mockingbird
Lonesome Dove
The Life of Pi

[ April 22, 2004, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Vonnegut, Ghandhi, and Mcmutry added.

Why Cuckoo's Nest and Lonesome Dove? What are the merits?
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Also, I'm not looking for Twain et al...I do not wish to stray into popular sci-fi either. I want books that truly make one think.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
one flew over the cuckoos nest is one of the finest character studies in all of literature

[ April 22, 2004, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Gotcha. Added.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
If an entire genre doesn't make you (or any one) think, is that the fault of the genre or of the reader?

At one time it was harder to find a more mainstream sci-fi book than I, Robot....

Kwea
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Kat, did you like the Life of Pi? I've been thinking of picking it up and I think that you and I have relatively the same taste...so maybe I will now.

Other books to definitely read:

The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis
Nicholas Nickleby Charles Dickens
Little Women Louisa May Alcott
Anne of Green Gables L.M. Montgomery

Those last two are a must even if you ARE a guy. They're just so well done in every way.

[ April 22, 2004, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: Narnia ]
 

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Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
 
For a book that will make you think about capitalist corruption and the horrid effects on society from the mother-infant relationship all the way through international politics, a must read is:

The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer.

Shan (well, everyone else is, why can't I?)
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
man, I've only read about a third of the books posted so far, and have only heard of half of the others.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
The Man Who was Thursday G K Chesterton
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 
Victor Hugo: Les Miserables
Homer: The Illiad, The Odyssey
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I've heard that Les Mis is only worth reading if you read it in french. Having read it in english I have to say that I don't consider it required reading by any stretch of the imagination in that language.

You know, my dad was a librarian and as soon as he got married he started putting together a library full of the books he thought his children should read. By the time I came around the number totalled over 4000. Sadly, they were all given away when we moved across the country.

It's definately something I want to do for my children, should I ever have any.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Okay, I'd take off religious texts from that list because they are simply too long - only parts are needed. I'd also (and this is treasonous, I know) not include the Republic, because I think a lot of people would just plain not like it (or understand it if they weren't reading carefully). I'd base my list not only on importance but also on accessibility and readability for the average reader.

Here's my list:

Nonfiction:
The Apology by Plato
Meditations on First Philosophy by Descartes
The Prince by Machiavelli
On Liberty by Mill
Second Treatise on Government by Locke
The Declaration of Independence
The Communist Manefesto
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Kuhn
The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life by Goffman
Jihad vs. McWorld by Barber
Genesis
At least one of the four Gospels
The Art of War by Sun-Tzu

Fiction:
Odyssey
Aeneid
Romeo and Juliet
Macbeth
Hamlet
Don Quixote
Great Expectations or David Copperfield
Les Miserables (abridged is okay)
Brave New World
1984
Animal Farm
The Lord of the Flies
To Kill A Mockingbird
Tom Sawyer
Huckleberry Finn
The Lord of the Rings
Dune
Siddhartha
Catch-22
At least one Harry Potter book
At least one book by Roald Dahl
At least one book by Dr. Seuss

And probably a bunch of other stuff that I haven't read or can't think of now...

And yes, I'd contend all of these make you think. Particularly the Dr. Seuss.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Harry Potter? Lord of the Rings? Yes, they may make you consider, but that is not the "think" I am shooting for.
 

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Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
 
*is thinking that HRE is slightly elitist*

*does not know what HRE means by 'books that make you think' if sci-fi is not to be included*

Good heavens, sci-fi is also known as speculative fiction. It makes you speculate .

*mutters*

*refrains from adding more because it is past bedtime*
 

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Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
 
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams

It doesn't make you think; it makes it so you don't have to. It made sense out of so much nonsense that only religious works could be considered decent competition.

quote:

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Also, I'm not looking for Twain et al...[] I want books that truly make one think.

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Doesn't Twain make you think? Even if it doesn't make you think now, it definitely made people think when it was first published. Or are you only talking about "authors that were good when they were underground"?

[ April 22, 2004, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
 

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Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
 
Hoo boy. You're not gonna like this.

King's Dark Tower series.

Ni!
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
HRE,

I hope this isn't on the list yet.

non-fiction:

victor frankl's (sp?) "Man's Search for Meaning"

It's very nice.

fallow
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
I thought you wanted insight on the human mentality? Both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter do an excellent job of that.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
Hmmm...let me clarify, to the best of my abilities. I am looking for books that give you mental stimulation, that require you to think, imagine, and philosophize on your own, especially about mankind or society. I may be wrong, but I do not think that the mass-produced, form-fed Harry Potter books match this. While Lord of the Rings is an excellent work of fiction, by far one of my favorites, I don't think that it fits here anymore than the DragonRiders series would.

Huckleberry Finn and some of Twain's other works I could agree with. What I mean by that comment is that I'm not looking for your American Literature Summer reading list.

I never said that sci-fi is not to be included. Again, I need to clarify. Everyone has a favorite novel. I do not want them. Unless, of course, they fit the above description.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
If, on the other hand, you're really interested in smart sounding books so chicks while talk to you while you read them in the coffee shop while sipping your specialty coffee, Harry Potter will probably attract a wider audience than Lord of the Rings.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Why would "I, Robot" or "The Inferno" make you philosophize more than Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings?

The Lord of the Rings is about the human individual's desire for adventure, as well as the nature and character of good and evil. It's hard to miss these themes as you read through.

Harry Potter is about identity and belonging, the value of imagination, and (like many hero tales) the difference between vice and virtue. It's comparable (although it gives very different answers to these questions) to books like The Catcher in the Rye or The Chosen which follow young protagonists along similar (although less fantastical) journeys.

I think you may be looking for books in which intellectualist authors have attempted to insert hidden messages and meaning. However, that would overlook those stories in which powerful messages and meaning is more naturally included just by the sheer power of the story itself - a greater feat I think, as it's not so hard to insert your opinion into a novel.

[ April 23, 2004, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
So you're looking for books that approach human society from a philosophical/theological/scientific point of view? (also, what xaposerT said about intellectual authors inserting their world views into the stories)

How about Camus' The Stranger?

Also, I second Of Human Bondage (although I don't know if it belongs on the list 100%). It's truly a masterpiece.

[ April 23, 2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Incidently... The Prince, Meditations on First Philosophy, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, Animal Farm, Don Quioxte, and The Lord of the Flies are DEFINITELY the sort of books you are looking for, even if not the others on my list.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
drats!

jehovoid, thanks for including those.

A book that engaged me as a youngster (dunno how appropriate it is for any audience as I haven' read it since 5th grade) was "My Side of the Mountain."

Actually, on that note, now that I've mentioned it, is this the kind of thing I'd go back and hate upon reading it as an adult? (like the star wars phenom?) Anyone happen to know?

fallow

[ April 23, 2004, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
 

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Posted by the perpetual newby (Member # 6468) on :
 
I would like to contend for Les Miserables, unabridged, in English as I cannot read French. If one is looking for a nice plot and such, the abridged version is fine, and the unabridged version is both annoying and boring. However, if one approaches the unabridged version as a treatise on human nature and the inherent problems of society, it is truly amazing definitely one hundred percent belongs. As for the English, I read an old translation, it might have been the original, but I can't remember, and it was still an amazing book. I can't compare it to reading it in French, as I haven't, but the English is just fine.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
It sound like HRE should be polling lit majors, not the general population of Hatrack.

I have read about half, or maybe slightly more than half of the books mentioned (I told you I read a lot), and I do understand what you mean when you say that you aren't looking for a favorites list. Every person has a list of favorites, and the lists never, ever agree. The last list of influential (I think that is what you are aiming for) books I saw was the list(s) published in 2000-2001, and the list(s) included most of the books already mentioned.

In all three of the lists LOTR was the number one choice, must to the dismay of Collage Lit elitists everywhere.

I found many of the so-called classics a bore, both for their poor writing styles as for their pedantic preachings. It is easy to forget that most of these books were written hundreds of years ago, and were the first of their types, or nearly the first...and they have been imitated so often (and poorly) that they often seem cheesy and ring false.

Dumas was an original, but how many rip-offs of COMC has the modern reader been subjected to these days? Too many to count. Every detective story seems to remind me of Doyles books, and if one more person tells me how wonderful it can be to be completely selfish I will kill Ayn Rand myself (that is if she wasn't already dead).

I,Robot was pulp fiction when it was written, and Tom Sawyer (and Huck Finn) were lambasted when first released. A Brave New World never even contemplated computers or Nuclear Power.

All "classics" must stand the test of time, and the scorn of "intellectuals". Not all that glitters is gold, either. Some of the so-called classics don't ring true to me, but that is as it should be.

My point was that any book, from almost any genre, can make you think. If it doesn't, the problem is with your mental skills, not necessarily with the book itself.

[ April 23, 2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by MattB (Member # 1116) on :
 
Watership Down.

This is such an important book, in so many ways.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
oh KWEA, come on!

Most classic lit is passed down from teacher to student because it made an impression on the teacher (long before elitest sentiments could have set in). Same goes for SF (see "I, Robot").

fallow

PS "thanks to Mr. G. for opening my eyes"
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
Here's my contribution for now. Some of these are books I read in an honor seminar called "The Quest for Wisdom" in college. Others are just books and stories that resonated and made me think.

- Siddhartha, by Herman Hesse
- I Ching
- Tau te Ching
- the entire Twilight Zone opus, by Rod Serling
- Night, by Elie Weisel
- I, Rigoberta Menchu, by Rigoberta Menchu
- Black Elk Speaks, translated by John Neihardt
- Autobiography of a Face, by Lucy Grealy
- On the Road, by Jack Kerouac
- Maus, by Art Spiegelman
- Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert Heinlein
 

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Posted by Jeni (Member # 1454) on :
 
Everyone should be required to read Le Petit Prince about every five years beginning at age twenty.
 

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Posted by the perpetual newby (Member # 6468) on :
 
I also nominate the play A Man For All Seasons I forgot who wrote it? Anyway...it's about Sir Thomas More.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I disagree, fallow. A lot of my teachers seemed to think that because it had been on the "list" for so many years, it MUST be good. When I began to disagree they basically told me that I should stop thinking and just take their word for it....not in so many words, btu that was the just of it. Whenever I came up with a new take on meanings, or symbolism, they would say "Well if that were true, then someone would have thought of it years ago." (yes that is an actual quote!).

Intellectual snobbery is alive and well, and mores the pity.

Also, I DO like quite a bit of the classics; it just seems to me that if Tom Sawyer, or A Conneticut Yankee in King Arthurs Court made me think, then they should be included, and they are in my list.

It just seemed he was saying "Well, anything that makes you think. Except vulgar, popular things like LOTR, Twain; but I, Robot and Brave New World are OK because they are MY picks. Any book at all, but not...."

See what I am saying?

Kwea
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
I don't think I do see, kwea, or, at least, that wasn't my experience. I had some teachers/profs that tossed out "standards" as readings of the week, but I also had teachers who just heaped on the reading material, I think, hoping that the student would learn to read, critically, and hopefully take something home, whether it was their (the teacher's) philosophy or something they (the students) found themselves within that mountains of text.

I've always thought that was a good thing.

fallow

[ April 23, 2004, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: fallow ]
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Moby Dick Herman Melville
The Holcroft Covenant Robert Ludlum
Social Forces Edward T. Devine
The Court and the Constitution Archibald Cox
Take a Chance to be First Warren Avis
The Gospel of the Redman Ernest & Julia Seton
Human Destiny Lecomte du Nouy
Dante's Divine Comedy Trans.: Rev. Henry Cary
Discovering Matthew Ed: Floyd Thatcher
Does Anybody Have a Problem With That? Bill Maher
Dirty Jokes and Beer: Stories of the Unrefined Drew Carey
Great Dialogues of Plato Rouse
Fugitive from The Cubicle Police Scott Adams
Seven Years of Highly Defective People Scott Adams
Leadership Prayers Richard Kriegbaum
They Call Me Sparky Sparky Anderson & Dan Ewald

Wow, I know that's not all of the literature I own, but those are some of the most mind provoking books I have. Aside from Louis L'amour, OSC, Ben Bova, and much more. My book list is still incomplete. I'm behind by about four years on my list. I need to update it someday.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Do the ads on the bottom respond to the contents of the posts? Because right now they're about Bradbury and Asimov.

afr

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Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
 

quote:

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Dumas was an original, but how many rip-offs of COMC has the modern reader been subjected to these days? Too many to count.

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* claps at kwea's unintended, but quite fun, pun *
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
waddaya mean unintended???

:::hufff::

Just because I'M not a med student.... ....lol

[ April 23, 2004, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
 
Then I to you for your slick way of slipping in such a delicious pun.

[ April 23, 2004, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: Suneun ]
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
Man, I smelled all the pretentiousness through my computer, somehow.

Anyway, Atlas Shrugged is absolutely required reading whether or not you like it. The fact that it's a great story aside, the Library of Congress ranks it right behind The Bible in its list of most influential books of all time.

And so far, I'm the only one on Hatrack who will admit to enjoying it. It's easily in my top 5. As is The Fountainhead.

And I'll second (or third) Catch-22 and Siddhartha.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Frisco,

Ayn random all the way to the bleachers, creature.

fallow
 

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Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
 
You're a weird guy, fallow.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Takes one to know one, Frisco-nabisco.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
literature *twitch*
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 

quote:

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While Lord of the Rings is an excellent work of fiction, by far one of my favorites, I don't think that it fits here anymore than the DragonRiders series would.

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quote:

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However, one doesn't come away from the trilogy with any sort of new worldview or greater philosophical understanding of self, or of the human condition.

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Why not? I think I did, and I suspect many fans did the same. Certainly more so than many books that might make other lists - the Great Gatsby for instance, which doesn't come near to expounding upon the human condition as well as LOTR does, despite its acclaim from the literary "experts". Most people I know were unaffected by that, but I know many people who I suspect were made a better person from reading the LotR.

[ April 23, 2004, 03:09 AM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
xaposert,

That's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison, don't you think? Human nature from the POV of a fantastical world filled with variaform humans vs. a period piece set well in early 20th century American capitalism?

fallow
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America Barbara Ehrenreich

An Unquiet Mind Kay Redfield Jamison

The Rule of St Benedict St Benedict
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
Tres, being contrary? Never!

Sure, people get different things out of different books. I can't imagine many went to work the next day and thought "boy, my boss is SO like Saruman... I should deal with him the same way Gandalf did!"

The problems in LotR are not the problems the average human faces in life. We are not called upon to deliver a ring to a mountain and stop evil from spreading into the world. And, while the themes of love and friendship are great, they are also shown through extreme duress and life/death situations - which most of us don't see too often, I hope.

The world is not so neatly bundled into good guys with shining swords and bad guys who screech from under black hoods. While there are things to be drawn from LotR (I'd never deny that), they aren't really philosophically deep books - nor were they meant to be.
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 

quote:

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Louis L'Amour? You're joking. Or is that not the name of the cowboy books I read way the hell back in junior high?

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Yes, very serious. I collect his books. A lot of them came from my grandfather.
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
You mean there's more than one? I always thought there were just different promo covers for the same basic novel, no?
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
StallingCow, if ya lived closer I would give you a copy of The Lonesome Gods or The Walking Drum. The 2nd one is waaaaay better for his non-westerns.
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
I'm sure I'd like the first one or two I read. I don't know about after that. Same deal with Brian Jacques... Mossflower and Redwall were fun, but the rest are all just the same devices played out again.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
Lit discussions.

jamboree-w00t-w00t-wee!



fallow
 

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Posted by Stan the man (Member # 6249) on :
 
Actually, if I had only read The Walking Drum, then I could still die happy. But that's me.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 

quote:

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Sure, people get different things out of different books. I can't imagine many went to work the next day and thought "boy, my boss is SO like Saruman... I should deal with him the same way Gandalf did!"

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quote:

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The problems in LotR are not the problems the average human faces in life. We are not called upon to deliver a ring to a mountain and stop evil from spreading into the world.

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quote:

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The world is not so neatly bundled into good guys with shining swords and bad guys who screech from under black hoods. While there are things to be drawn from LotR (I'd never deny that), they aren't really philosophically deep books - nor were they meant to be.

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quote:

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I can't think of anyone trying to emulate any character in the way you suggested. But I think it's much more likely than someone trying to emulate, say, Hamlet.

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quote:

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Of course we are, in our own ways. Each of us.

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quote:

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The world isn't really as oppressive as 1984 is, or as absurdly incompetent as Catch-22 is, or as barbaric as The Lord of the Flies is.

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quote:

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Why would we consider the Lord of the Rings' message to be any less deep?

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Maybe because it's not. It wasn't meant to be. It's goal was not to enlighten the masses, nor was it to provide insight into the human mind, nor was it to shake up commonly held perspectives. Therefore, there's no issue with it falling short of that goal, because it was never intended to have that effect.

It was written to form a sort of mythological history for england, as the Greeks and Norse have. It was meant to display a setting within which certain languages evolved. Along the way, he used a standard epic journey plot to take the reader from place to place to reveal the tidbits he wanted to reveal.

If you want fantasy that focuses on the nature of humanity and strives to open people's minds to the world around them, and to the world within them, it exists. Don't try to shoehorn Tolkein into that mold - he didn't like going down the symbolism road while he was alive, and I'm sure he wouldn't appreciate it now.

The hobbits were the English. Comfortable not doing anything, but worthy when forced to act. The unsuspecting hero? Sure. So was Arthur before them. So was Luke Skywalker since. So were a hundred other characters in literary tradition - it was a plot device to provide the reader (who the hobbits were modeled after) access into the mythos. Elves and dwarves and even the humans of middle earth are too flat and archetypal for a reader to relate to on an empathic level.

But, again, for those who missed it. LotR is a great book, great literature even. It accomplishes its goals very well and provides such a rich setting that it was dupliated ad infinitum over the next several decades. It offers a sense of whimsy and escapism into a simpler world where the bad guys are easily identified and the good guys can fire arrows unerringly and come back from the dead. It's fun, it makes people wish they were in the setting themselves - it's a visual feast of images.

Still, though, trying to say it's a deeply philosophical text is like looking for romance in Asimov. It's not why you read the books, nor is it the primary thing you take away.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Narnia, yes! The Life of Pi was completely incredible! I wish I could reread it but I loaned it out. It's so wonderful.

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Frisco, Ayn Rand is required reading the same way that Osama bin Laden tapes are required watching. They provide the perfect elitist excuse to be a selfish megolamaniac. (No, I'm not thinking of you. And yes, I've read them.)
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I'm amazed at how many of the books HRE initially posted that I have already read (except the Qu'ran). And many of the ones others have suggested be added to the "must read" list. I must be better read than I thought!

Stan, don't let them dis you about Louie L'Amour books. I also have a collection. Although his western paperbacks became a bit predictable, he also wrote several really good, more in-depth novels, such as "The Last of the Breed" and "Haunted Mesa" that were far above the quality of his westerns.

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 

quote:

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If you hadn't noticed, we *do* live in the world of 1984. We even had a television show called Big Brother, and reveled in the lack of privacy. With the patriot act, pretty much anyone can be spied upon and observed by the government. We live more and more in a panopticon.

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quote:

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Note that I never held up Hamlet as being part of this list, nor would I.

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Maybe because it's not. It wasn't meant to be. It's goal was not to enlighten the masses, nor was it to provide insight into the human mind, nor was it to shake up commonly held perspectives. Therefore, there's no issue with it falling short of that goal, because it was never intended to have that effect.

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quote:

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Still, though, trying to say it's a deeply philosophical text is like looking for romance in Asimov. It's not why you read the books, nor is it the primary thing you take away.

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You keep saying stuff like this, but it contradicts reality as I observe it. I read Lord of the Rings and can say with confidence that it influenced me in a deep way. I can say that the deeper messager of the story WAS a primary thing I took away, more so than most other classics you might include on this list. And I can also say that I know many people for which this also seems to be true.

It's a message that is more powerful than, say, 1984, I think. 1984 is interesting in the way it helps us view government, but it is not a very widely applicable theme. The Lord of the Rings, in contrast, can alter your view of the world in a way that might be applicable in every day life. It deals with good and evil, the value of adventure, the burden of greed, and the need for sacrifice. These are things that everyond can relate to.

Now, you can CLAIM nobody comes out of reading the books taking away anything of deep philosophical significance, but where's the evidence for that claim? I think the evidence, in the form of all the people who have taken such meaning from the books, is against it.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
War and Peace, by Tolstoy.... Love that book!

Lord of the Rings, by Tolkien... another vote for a master work
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
The Death of Ivan Ilych by Tolstoy would be an addition I make.

Personally, I think Catch-22 and to a large extent Cat's Cradle and SH-5 ARE exactly like reality, it's just that we have less of a sense of humor about these things happening in reality..

But I am biased towards the latter 2 (though I would omit SH-5, everyone thinks it's his opus, but I think it's a fun romp through ideas he describes better elsewhere, [EDIT: and is notable solely] due to the literary structure/game he works with the narrative... Honestly, I'd ditch Brave New World, and add Player Piano by Vonnegut, since it is heavily influenced by the former, but is placed in a time closer to ours [and, quaintly, like most of Vonnegut's early work, placed in the past, the 50s/early 60s to be exact]).

-Bok

[ April 23, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
 

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Posted by Audeo (Member # 5130) on :
 
Daniel Deronda by George Eliot. Excellent characterizations, and it raises a lot of questions regarding morality, faith, and gender roles.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
I think the difference between 1984 and Lord of the Rings should be eminently clear.

One author was trying to write about government's ability to control social freedom. A novel was the best way for him to get across his message.

One author was telling a story about a mythical land and an epic quest. A novel was the best way to get across his story and bring his vision to life.

I really think that the salient feature of HRE's list is that it deals with authors who, for the most part, were social thinkers first, storytellers second. That's why LotR doesn't belong on the list. Not because of how the reader responds to it, but because of how the author wrote it. I think that by saying "favorites," HRE was trying to exclude "pure" stories.

Are "pure" stories better than the "required" reading? Can one do both at the same time? Heck, I don't know. Probably.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
What do the author's intentions have anything to do with how we judge the book, or its "purity," or whether or not people should be required to read it? A book defines its own worth - not its author.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Actually, jehovoid, by that reasoning Tolkien needs to be on the reading list. There's no better book for demonstrating the true purpose and methods of myth in the human consciousness.

The lesson isn't about the difference between good and evil. It's about the fact of good and evil, the limitations of temporal power in confronting it, and the need to still do so.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Scythrop (Member # 5731) on :
 
I have to say, I think that given the completely subjective nature of all literature, great or otherwise, just coming up with a reasonable set of selection criteria for a list such as this would have to be a close to impossible task.

That said, I'd still like to see James Joyce's Ulysses make the list as one of the greatest ever examples of characterisation and psychological writing. Of course, this is just my opinion...;-}

Would also throw my support behind One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Oh, and Perp. Newby - A Man For All Seasons was by Robert Bolt, I'm pretty certain....

cheers
 

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Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
 
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen

Life isn't simply the big things, the societies, the deep philosophies. It's also personal love and pain and loss. A Required reading list that includes only social commentary would be just as useless as one that includes only pure stories, humanity is both, not one or the other.
 

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Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
 
I second Nickel and Dimed.
 

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Posted by the perpetual newby (Member # 6468) on :
 
Thanks Scythrop.....you're totally right


 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
I don't know why I keep responding to you, Tres. It's a fruitless and ultimately unfulfilling exercise. It has been for these three years I've been posting here, and I don't think that will change. But, alas... I have a thing for lost causes, I guess.

quote:

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If you want proof just ask them how the Lord of the Rings has influenced them, how they love it.

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I read Lord of the Rings and can say with confidence that it influenced me in a deep way.

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It's a message that is more powerful than, say, 1984, I think.

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With this in mind, I present a small but ever-growing list of books that provide a means for the betterment of the mind.

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These are things that everyond can relate to.

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Now, you can CLAIM nobody comes out of reading the books taking away anything of deep philosophical significance, but where's the evidence for that claim?

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I think the evidence, in the form of all the people who have taken such meaning from the books, is against it.

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quote:

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A book defines its own worth - not its author.

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There's no better book for demonstrating the true purpose and methods of myth in the human consciousness

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LotR was actually not a myth. It was a story in the style of myth. If you want to see the true purpose and methods of myth in the human consciousness, go back to a story written when such myths were believed, and when gods were given the blame for the unexplained. Try Homer - you know, that guy whose works Tolkien was emulating.

But, even so, we're looking for betterment of the mind. We're not looking for examples of methodology.

[ April 24, 2004, 01:23 AM: Message edited by: StallingCow ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
If you see LOTR as an allegorical tale, then you have missed the point. Unless you know more about what the author meant than the author himself,who violently objected to all such allegations.

Any story can dissected and made to fit in an allegorical setting, even if that wasn't the intent of the writer. Most of the people who teach such drivel are frustrated writers themselves, who seem to revel in dissecting others works and assigning false meanings to them.

LOTR isn't about either of the World Wars, even though he lived through them, and it isn't an allegory of the rise of Hitler. It isn't just a tale of friends succeeding when all others had failed, although that is a part of it.

LOTR was Tolkien's attempt to formulate a series of tales to take the place of all the native English folklore and mythology that had been destroyed in the past. He was trying to give his version of the fantastical, to give back to his people a sense of wonder. He never expected to become rich, and was often quoted as being surprised that anyone would be interested in his tales outside of academia.

Tolkien touched a nerve with people everywhere, and I think it has been very important in many ways to many people. To me, it seems that he taught me to look at the world through different eyes, and he woke a deep love of reading in me that will last the rest of my life.

If that isn't what you meant, then I don't know what is.

Also, I wasn't being overly critical of Brave New World...those comments were the authors (A. Huxley) own words in the preface of the newest edition of it. They were his thoughts on the book he had written so many years ago, not mine, so I guess he might have known what he was talking about...I was using them to point out that even a great novel(lla) can have major flaws. I love that book, and found it to be very thought provoking.

I have read many of the classics we have mentioned here in this thread, and enjoyed most of them. But to say that I can pick whatever books I want, then say "well, except for...." isn't a fair situation. I get to choose, but someone else gets to tell me if my choices are of any value? Then why ask for opinions?

I don't think the measure of a book's value is how many English professors like it, or that age automatically qualifies a book for greatness. I try to see each book I read as valuable, but not all books are of the same value.

Here is my list:
LOTR
Brave New World
Lord of the Flies
Iliad
Odyssey
Kalivala (Norse myths)( I know I butchered the spelling)
Hero of a Thousand Faces
Shakespeare ( his poems, too)
Masque of the Red Death
Rappaccini's Daughter

Kwea
 

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Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
 
Kat: I will pick it up. I trust your recommendations more than I would trust most people's.
 

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Posted by Muwahaha (Member # 6488) on :
 
I've been lurking, but had to come out for this one. Let's add some Toni Morrison to the list - "The Bluest Eye"
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
kwea,

can I ask you a favor?

fallow
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
yeah, sure. That doesn't mean I'll do it, though....that depends on what the favor is....

Kwea
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
cool!

I forget what I was gonna ask, though.

*slaps forehead*

can I keep it as a rain-check?

fallow
 

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Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
 
Ayn Rand is required reading. Love her or hate her, you *must* develop an opinion.

quote:

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(Left Blank for a good reason) The Book of Mormon

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Trying to make out LotR as a book primarily focused on the betterment of the mind, of achieving a higher intellectual plateau, is stretching a bit far, don't you think?

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It's not a list of books that influenced you. It's not a list for, as you put it, "good and evil, the value of adventure, the burden of greed, and the need for sacrifice."

The list was for books that dealt with the betterment of the mind.

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And where is *your* evidence, which you speak so highly of? Saying "all the people" is as worthless as saying "none of the people"... any evidence will be anecdotal at best.

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Funny, then, how a book would have no worth if it had no author. By the very nature of art, the artist is important. Otherwise, art would not exist.

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Stan, don't let them dis you about Louie L'Amour books. I also have a collection. Although his western paperbacks became a bit predictable, he also wrote several really good, more in-depth novels, such as "The Last of the Breed" and "Haunted Mesa" that were far above the quality of his westerns.

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quote:

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LotR was actually not a myth. It was a story in the style of myth. If you want to see the true purpose and methods of myth in the human consciousness, go back to a story written when such myths were believed, and when gods were given the blame for the unexplained. Try Homer - you know, that guy whose works Tolkien was emulating.

But, even so, we're looking for betterment of the mind. We're not looking for examples of methodology.

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The fact that you think myths are principly about giving gods "the blame for the unexplained" is a pretty clear example of why LotR is a book for the "betterment of the mind." Betterment of the mind doesn't mean something "that warns us about a potential dictatorship" or "teaches us a moral lesson." It means something that contributes to the understanding of fundamental, universal truths. LotR taps into a deep wellspring of the human consciousness in a way no other story I've read does.

Myths gain power by their resonance with deeply held but poorly articulable beliefs. Tolkien's "On Fair Stories" explains this well, but LotR actually does it.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
When I was young, I liked Ayn Rand because everyone told me she was a great writer, and I found her intellectually stimulating.

The older I got, the less I liked her, her writing, or her books.

I find them irritating, poorly written, and shallow. She had some great concepts, but she didn't stay true to them. I felt she was preachy, and since I didn't agree with what she was saying I didn't see the point.

I don't think they are worth the paper they have been printed on. Of course, that's just my view.

I also really liked A Tale of Two Cities, but I found it to be a hard read. I didn't find it to interest me at all when I tried to read it, and that was weird since I could read anything. I had even read the original English translation of Le Mort d'Artur (sp?)(The Death of Arthur), and the most action in all 3000 pages of that was "He dreweth his sword and slayeth the giant.".

I had trouble with the first 200 pages of TOTC. I tried to read it three times before I got into it, but once I got further into the book I loved it. I read it again that following summer, and found it to be wonderful; it only starts slow. It taught me to be patient with classics because the payoff at the end of them is greater due to the wait.

Kwea

[ April 24, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
Okay, I'm done. I don't think I'm going to bash my head against Tres' signature brand of wall any longer. Call me a slow learner.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Truth is a wall you won't be able to smash through.
 

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Posted by StallingCow (Member # 6401) on :
 
"The easiest person to deceive is oneself."

-Edward Bulwer-Lytton
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."

Martin Luther King, Jr.

(Spelling? What's that?)

[ April 24, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: mackillian ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 

quote:

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"The easiest person to deceive is oneself."
-Edward Bulwer-Lytton

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Precisely.

Now... can we get on with the list?

[ April 24, 2004, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
 
The Lord of the Rings is about the human individual's desire for adventure
It's not about the desire for adventure, it's about the desire for 'stay-at-home' peace and quiet, and the courage and integrity required to achieve that.
 

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Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
 
Can't help out because after three pages I still have no idea what's being asked for. Apparently you want books that were written for the sole purpose of "bettering the mind," which would eliminate everything that wasn't a philosophical treatise, I would think.

I also wouldn't disparage popular literature as quickly as has been done here. If the book is impenetrable it doesn't matter how "important" it is.
 

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Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
 
Can't help thinking that authors who INTEND writing books that better the mind end up writing the exact opposite, or at best those that can be damned with the term 'worthy'. One of the marks of a great work of art is that it can bear many interpretations, including ones the author hadn't originally thought of. That being said here's a couple more to add to the mix:
The Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn
Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus, OSC
The Stonor Eagles, William Horwood
Skallagrigg, William Horwood
The Broken Heart, Bruce Hafen
 

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Posted by Law Maker (Member # 5909) on :
 
A Wrinkle in Time Madeleine L'Engle
A Swiftly Tilting Planet Madeleine L'Engle
Les Miserables Victor Hugo (If you can't stand the book, at least see the musical)
Stranger in a Strange Land Robert Heinlein
The Scarlet Letter Nathaniel Hawthorn
The Divine Comedy Dante (The entire thing. I don't know why everyone seems to stop after they've finished Inferno )
The Never Ending Story Michael Ende
Everything by William Shakespeare

. . . And I think there's some more. I can't remember, though.
 

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Posted by HRE (Member # 6263) on :
 
I go away for three days, and the topic breaks 100 posts. I'm going to need some time to sort through this.

Stallingcow was exactly right when he said:

quote:

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Kwea,

I can see what you're saying with regards to being able to find intellectual stimulation from basically any book. Anything can make you think, not just the prescribed books that civilization seems to think are *important*.

However, there are certain books that are inherently more thought provoking than others. For instance, the Lord of the Flies speaks far more to the human condition than does the novelization of the movie Underworld, for instance.

What HRE is trying to get at, I think, is an "agreed upon" list (as far as that's even possible) of books that get at the essence of the human spirit and the meaning of human existence. "Required" reading in a sense of books that help to provide a better sense of self, and of one's place in the world. Books that make you a more complete person for having read them.

To that end, certain great books fall short of the cut. Tolkien is a great read, and the books are chock full of literary symbolism and all manner of ponderables. However, one doesn't come away from the trilogy with any sort of new worldview or greater philosophical understanding of self, or of the human condition.

Contrarily, let's look at one you disparaged. Brave New World, though somewhat dated in terms of available technology, has become even *more* thought provoking and apropos in a world where such genetic manipulation of embryos is more and more possible and where sexual mores have lessened considerably. It's disturbing how closely Huxley's world parallels our own, even more now than when it was written. Does this mean it's as fun and exciting as LotR? Not at all. But BNW is far more likely to force a reader to examine the world around them and their place in it than LotR is.

---

 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
I'm going to put in a vote for Chaim Potok's "The Book of Lights." Possibly a slightly obscure choice, but it spoke to me on so many levels, and still does. It should be more widely-known and widely-read than it is. It's really just a very honest look at both political and spiritual issues in Judaism of the 1950s - very grounded in a particular time and place and yet the bits of one's mind it speaks to are, I think, universal. The bits that deal with conflict and encountering unfamiliar cultures and seeking to understand them. And I don't think I've advocated it very well, for it far transcends what I can say about it.

I think Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" should be somewhere on the list. It's a very good history of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and how they've interacted over the years. Accurate and perceptive and very very well written.

Those are the only ones I can think of that haven't been mentioned.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
Reading Lolita in Tehran . I just read it today, and it is fabulous. Everyone should read it. Everyone. It's about this woman who started a reading group for women in Iran, and they read Lolita and The Great Gatsby and some other things, and it's very very interesting.

Jen

[ April 27, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
 

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Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
 
OK, this is the voice of God speaking, I have the final say so there's no point in arguing with me as you will invariably be totally wrong.

Different books are thought provoking for different people, that is fact. There is no way of making a singular list for the entire human race without including nearly every book ever written. Therefore, any common list must be qualified: for a large percentage of people a large percentage of the time.
If there is a book you don't think is thought provoking and somebody else does, then rest assured that you are wrong, and that the only reason you think that is because you are very stupid and narrow-minded like the rest of pathetic humankind.
If there is a book you think is thought provoking and somebody else doesn't, it's actually theoretically possible that you are again wrong because the other is so far beyond you in intelectual devlopment in the particular area that that book would not be thought provoking as the valid ideas expressed, implied, or narrated within have already been ingrained deep, deep within the individual's psyche.


That being said I'll go back to being good old contrary rude suntranafs.

Any people who did not have their thoughts provoked by the Lord of the Rings trilogy sure as hell should have. Most of the foundations of morality can be found therein. As a side-note, I myself did not find them very provoking of conscious thought, but the sub-conscious part of the brain is a lot bigger, and you can tell when it's working.

People who bash Loius Lamour books have either not read and appreciated the good ones or should by all rights be shot, mostly the former. Some of the really good, and I might venture to say substantially more consciously thought provoking than TheLOTRtril. are:
Jubal Sackett, the aforesaid The Walking Drum and The Lonesome Gods, Last of the Breed, Reily's Luck, several short stories of which the only one that story and title come to mind just now is "May There Be a Road", and others.
Many more of his hundreds of books do run along a similar theme, for they have something to teach: What it is to be a man.

"Brave New World I liked, and found interesting and I suppose thought provoking, Fairenheight 51 I have not read but would rather like to (but you want to talk reallly thought provoking from many levels and directions, try The Martian Chronicles also by Ray Bradbury) , and "1984" really sucked, pissed me off, I thought it was totally unrealistic for any time, that the author "cheated" to put a more negative spin on things, and anybody who thinks our country is there now is in serious need of a reality check. Things, no matter how bad, will never be bad in that way because life is not a story written by a psychotic God. I suppose the book was a bit thought provoking- the storyline was crappy and the writing a bit pointless, but there were some little outlying, blatantly obvious and unskillfully interwoven messages written in. ahh, I did kinda like doublespeak and truethink, oh and the ministry of peace, the ministry of truth, and most signifigant to that era and this, the ministry of love- actually might well be the ministry of security... ALMOST. Not quite. There's something to the book, but it's far to negative and unrealistic to be the great doctrine that everybody acts like it is.

It's hard for me to believe that nobody's specifically mentioned Speaker for the Dead, that's about as thought provoking a book as any I've read. Deny fiction as a thought provoking book category and you may as well say I have no moral literary education, and that would be bull. Non-fiction "Classics", with a few notable exceptions, tend to bore me to the point that I think Ok, gotta read this book, force myself through the first thirty pages, and then go read a good thoughtprovoking, or not, fiction book.

Want to talk about thought provoking with-definite-points-based-fiction, try "My Ishmael" or "Ishmael". Since probably few have hear of these, Ishmael is a Gorilla who talks with his eyes and reveals what's wrong with the world and how to save it. Another one, that's more like a relgious text, and that again, I can hardly believe no one has mentioned, is "The Prophet". Somebody already mentioned Siddartha, and I'd definitely second that, possibly adding "Damien" also by Herman Hesse.

If I were to start cussing at people for dissing Mark Twain, I'd probably run myself hoarse, but has anybody ever read "Letters from the Earth"? As if Huck Finn weren't enough. I actually haven't even read that much Mark Twain, but am I the only person who's seen his many reveletory quotes posted all over heck? I'm guessing the majority came from some book or another. If Jules Verne was the 19th century prophet of 20th century science, Mark Twain was the 19th century prophet of continued human moral evolution.

Another great prophet of that was the guy's name that I always forget... Heaven and Hell, Man and Superman, Caesar and Cleopatra, another good one I've read, and a lot of great quotes...ooo what is his name... dang these people with three names, I can only think of one, and I don't think OSC is a playwright.

Another really pretty thought provoking book I haven't seen mentioned but that is widely known is Inherit the Wind.

The gospels of Mathew and Luke, and the bit about King solomon in the bible may not be precisely thought provoking but they definitely their enlightened messages. Though I haven't done much of the actual reading, from what I've listened to on tapes, socrates must be something to check out as well.

And to add to the books that should be read and understood by the elite, many of which I have not read, I'd like to make the point of mentioning the stories of the three little pigs, chicken little, the emperors new clothes, the tin soldier, the black bull of norway, The sword in the stone, Sir Perceval, Tristram and Iseult, Romeo and Juliet, < well better make that a lot of the shakespeare plays, Vasillisa the Beuatiful, Fenist the Falcon, The Gift of the Sacred Dog, Naya Nuki, and about 1,000,000 others.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
HRE: All I did was quote Huxley himself when I was talking about BNW. Are you saying the author was wrong?
Once again, let me repeat ( ) that I wasn't dissing BNW, just pointing out that even a great work can have some serious flaws.

As far as ponderous works, full of heavy symbolism goes, I feel that most of the "classics" are closer to that standard than the books I mentioned are. Not every conversation has to laden with overtones of doom in order for a book to be great, but Moby Dick is so overburdened with angst that I never enjoyed it. I'm not saying it isn't a good book, but I didn't really learn much from it...perhaps because I had already learned those lessons from LOTR...

Read my earlier posts, and then agree or disagree; it doesn't really matter. All I was saying is that it didn't really sound to me that you wanted peoples true opinions, because if you did, you wouldn't have been so scornful when they offered it.

All of the books mentioned here has touched someone, and you your list, by excluding their choices before the choices were ever made, belittles them.

If nothing else, this thread should prove my most important point. That is, everybody will have different books on their lists, and that is as it should be, for we are all as different as our choices for books are.

Stalling cow: All that proves is that LOTR isn't the same book for you as it is for me. I found myself loving reading more for having found it, and that did change my world significantly. LOTR led me to a lot of the classics that we have been discussing here, and fostered a love of reading that has stood me in good stead for my whole life. It made me question the opinions of teachers, and helped me realize that it was OK to be different, to enjoy different things than most of my classmates. How ironic that sounds now, in the wake of it's new-found popularity, but in 1981 it wasn't nearly as mainstream as it is now.

I also learned to be critical of Lit, because a teacher of mine used LOTR to teach his class how to analyze a novel. Usually those types of classes bored the hell out of me, but I loved this one.

So by your own criteria, LOTR fits in MY list, because it did all the things you said great Lit should do: It expanded my mind, taught me critical thinking skills, and motivated me to continue reading and learning for my whole life. It taught me that you could still be a man and enjoy using your imagination, and that other people like me were out there, with the same interests and behaviors. And it taught me that there were worlds out there waiting for me to discover them, all held between bindings.

Kwea

[ April 26, 2004, 01:27 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
suntrafs,

this is gonna sound rude, but I don't think you know what you are talking about.

fallow
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It doesn't just sound rude.
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
I'm so glad sutranafs has such a high impression of me.

Edit: I've decided not to do a Landmark for a little while, so I'm going back to my FlyingCow nick.

[ April 26, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: FlyingCow ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Yes, that was rude.
 

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Posted by combustia (Member # 6328) on :
 
Yes. All Bow To The Great And Wonderful SUTRANAFS
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I just wanted to share that because of this thread, I decided to go ahead and read Moby Dick for the first time. I am enjoying it much more that I thought I would.

Just thought I'd share.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I have to admit I wasn't impressed with Brave New World at all, because I didn't see it as plausible at all. Do you know what I mean? It was like your brother telling you horror stories when you can SEE the he's the one pulling a string to make the scary noises. If anything, the Chicken Little thing made me LESS fearful of oppresion, because I simply don't believe BNW's scenario could ever happen.
 

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Posted by hugh57 (Member # 5527) on :
 

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Tolkien is a great read, and the books are chock full of literary symbolism and all manner of ponderables. However, one doesn't come away from the trilogy with any sort of new worldview or greater philosophical understanding of self, or of the human condition.

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Yes. All Bow To The Great And Wonderful SUTRANAFS

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A supremely excellent idea. Specially since I notice no one is arguing with me

No, Seriously, though, flying Cow and any others, I did not mean to offend- and the domineering tone was more of my dumb humor. When it comes to things like this, as I tried to use my alter-ego(God) to point out, everybody's got their views, and I don't think anybody (except possibly me, and that I tried to qualify) was saying anything too negative, just expressing strongly-which I applaud, because I like to myself. Let's face it Some of us just really like books, and feel some need to stick up for our favorites, whether it be their story-value or intelectual-value in question.
 

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Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
 

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When you say "one" doesn't come away from the trilogy, etc., you are assuming that everyone came away from it exactly the same as you did, which isn't true for this, or any other book. You shouldn't presume to speak for everyone else based on your own personal reaction.

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Hey! You coppy cat. Did I or did I not JUST say that? j/k I don't care.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
It was my point first, so does that mean god is quoting me, or simply using me as a reference source?
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
ibid.
 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
People do so often talk about "escapist" literature and "interpretive" literature. My English IV teacher was always on about what was escapist and what was interpretive. I told her that what she considered escapist were books that didn't make HER think. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to go on and clarify that; she thought I was calling her stupid.

But I mean--how does any book not make you think about something? Does anyone actually read a book with his mind a perfect blank?

Lord of the Rings always makes me think about something . All books make me think about something . The value of the book is partly in the reader.

Jen

(Disclaimer: I've never read any bodice-rippers...maybe they're the exception.)
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
How could you possibly insinuate bodice-rippers aren't just as valid as literature as anything else? I mean, all books are equal, right? It's all just about interpretation.

Let's throw some self-published pay-for-print books on the list. And why are we discriminating against the young? Goodnight Moon and See Jane Run should certainly be on this list because of their enlightening impact.

Wait... what about all the illiterate people out there? Aren't their opinions just as valid? Surely picture books must be included on the list.

And emergency test patterns on the television, because, it's all what the viewer/reader makes of it, no?


 

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Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
 
FlyingCow dahling, I'm not saying all books are equal, just that I don't see how you can read any book and not think about anything .

I wasn't, actually, arguing that all books should be required reading. Some people were saying that certain books didn't make you think, which bewilders me.

Apologies. Lack of clarity.

Jen
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Actually, I was gonna mention Goodnight Moon. That book is a must read.

I'm not sure it does meet the standard of inducing deep thought, though - not at the level Lord of the Rings does at least. Even for kids.

Dr. Seuss, though, I said...
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Shan, if you like The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer, you should also read Milk, Money, and Madness by Naomi Baumslag and Dia L. Michels. It's on the same topic, a few years later.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Why not just go like this, Cow?nbjviebigbjvnbaxjcnbvqjrehgoeqnjvnajvnrejongjovdxnvojneognjobvnxvc?? Right?

I never said that all books were equal. I said that this thread started out as elitist, and I wasn't the only one to notice it. If you think LOTR is on the same level as See Dick Run, that speaks more on your ability to think and analyze works of Lit than it does of either book....not that I really think that of you...

I get your point, I even got it before you posted it...but it still doesn't address the fact that HRE was trying to ask for peoples opinions when he had already made up his mind to not listen. That is shown by his dismissive disregard of a novel that people on all seven continents have deemed important.

You don't have to agree with me, but trying to ridicule my point doesn't make that point any less valid.

We all make our own lists, and my list does include LOTR. It doesn't include many novel that stuffy professors have told me over and over again were wonderful; but it does include many classics that I personally found thought provoking. Just because a book is old and overwrought with clichés doesn't mean it meant jack to me.

But just because something has been called a classic doesn't mean I won't like it, or think about it.

Kwea
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 

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I don't know, LOTR made me stop and examine the world around me and be relieved to hear that real human dialogue isn't that stilted.

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Mack, you gave me my first giggle of the day.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I think Alexander and the Terrible, Horrible, No-Good, Very Bad Day is high fine literature.

Why?

Who HASN'T had a day like Alexander?

I've had several in a row.

I'm moving to Australia, I say.
 

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