On NPR this morning, I heard a segment on a 1 year old FL law that would allow students to skip their last year of High School, provided that they had maintained a C average, and had 18 credits.
The law was made, according to the NPR segment, to cut down on class size.
At this point, there's not much statistical data to review-- the law hasn't been around long enough. Only 4,000 students in the whole of FL plan to use it this year.
The reports that have come out have noted that most of the students skipping their last year are students who DO NOT plan on going on to college-- the law was formulated with the idea that students WOULD go on to college. CNN Linkage
Hmm.
Comments? I have no opinion as yet.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
It's neat how people in different parts of the country mention things that they heard on NPR in the morning that I heard, too. Somehow makes the world a more homey place.
I have no problem with the law, beyond the one caveat that one of the respondents they interviewed mentioned of students not being exposed to American history or civics. I think, though, it's pretty much a no brainer to just mandate that the stuff be taught before a student's senior year in high school. then there is no problem.
One problem I do see is that even though there aren't a lot right now, I think at the very least you'll still see at least a slight increase in the number of 'underage' students at colleges. This is just going to give the people who see college(and the rest of the country) as an extension of high school an excuse to tighten wat is and is not allowed on campus for the sake of protecting 'the children'. As should be obvious by now to most of the people on this forum, I am opposed to the filtering of ideas by the state.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Actually, most colleges aren't recognizing those diplomas.
-Icarus
[ April 23, 2004, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What were YOU doing awake at 5:30, Storm?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
About 6:30, actually. And I was on my way to work.
MegaIcarus, they mentioned that on the show. And, yeah, that is an issue outside of Florida. Apparently in Florida, universities, as they phrased it, 'can be required' to recognize those diplomas.
As a little background to those who don't live in Florida, the voters of Florida passed a bill last year mandating smaller class sizes. Jeb! has been doing everything in his power to not raise 'taxes', while still trying to somehow get something off the ground which will result in smaller class sizes.
The plan that NPR talked about represents one of these measures. 'Costs' the state nothing to let people get out of school early. Possibly hurts the students later on down the road, but who cares about that?<----sarcasm
[ April 23, 2004, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Well, I can certainly see why the kids that are taking advantage of the early skip-out are the ones NOT going to college.
Most colleges have their own standard of what credits you must have completed in high school, regardless of what the high school says. So, for instance, a college may say that you need two years of foreign language, whereas the high school only requires one for graduation.
My daughter is having to give up a lot of electives (in high school) just to get in all the REQUIRED courses for the college she plans to attend. She's even having to test out of one course in order to fulfill the high school requirements will also fulfilling the college pre-reqs.
Farmgirl
edit: shouldn't type before coffee
[ April 23, 2004, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Have an apple instead, FG.
Posted by John L (Member # 6005) on :
Kids who skip out early don't deserve a diploma. It's a stupid idea for Florida to try.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Scott, I heard about that apple idea, and let me tell you, apples are not coffee. I don't care what any 'scientists' say.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I thought this law was a bad idea from the outset. You miss a lot of education by just taking the bare minimum to graduate. If these kids were graduating early and then going to college, it might be different. But if they are graduating from college and not going to college, well, it just sounds like kids with limited opportunities limiting themselves even more.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
One of the reasons that I am tentatively in support of this law is that 'college' does not mean what it used to. It's perfectly possible to go to a trade school like a vo-tech or an ITT tech and the like and learn a trade and do much better financially than 90% of those who went to college.
In my completely ignorant opinion, if someone really has a love of 'learning', most of the time they have a love of learning because of the family they were raised in. Forcing them to stay in school(edit: I should say beyond a certain point. I'm not saying they can automatically drop out in 6th grade.) isn't going to make them a better person and eventually, if they want to get a college degree, they'll go back to school and take what they want.
The problem here isn't the student, it's the way the system is set up. The scholarships, financial aid and culture of college is still often geared towards younger people. I think, given the number of non-traditional students, that various institutions should be more open to givnig financial aid to older students.
Obviously, this raises questions of fairness and applicability, but I think it's a question that should be raised, at the very least.
[ April 23, 2004, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
In VA they give Seniors the opportunity to take classes at a community college-- which, IMO, is a good idea. Academically, it allows them to shorten their college career, because grades and classes are transferrable.
This seems to me like a much better idea.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:One of the reasons that I am tentatively in support of this law is that 'college' does not mean what it used to. It's perfectly possible to go to a trade school like a vo-tech or an ITT tech and the like and learn a trade and do much better financially than 90% of those who went to college.
I think you are correct, if the students graduating early are actually doing this. What I worry about is students graduating early, just to get out of school, and then finding themselves with limited job opportunities, and limited options.
I guess my view is influenced, at least in part, by the sorts of young people I saw at the public hospital where I worked. At least some of them seemed to fall in the category of those who seem to be permanently stuck in a deadend job, or unemployed and stuck in the welfare system.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
But is one more year in high school going to do anything for these people?
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Hey, I did this! *surprised
It's why I don't have a high school diploma.
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Another measure proposed by Jeb! to punish the voters is double sessions. We are looking at double sessions in our county for the 2005 - 2006 school year. I am anxiously awaiting details of how this will impact teachers, because this stands a decent chance of driving me out of the profession, or at least out of Central Florida public schools.
-Icarus Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I don't have a good answer for that one, Stormy. I guess I am thinking that finishing that last year of high school would give the student one year more of maturity to make decisions. It would also afford the student one more year of being (hopefully) positively influenced by teachers, so that the student could make positive, constructive choices about his or her future.
But maybe I am being too optimistic.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
What are double sessions?
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Mega, my brother, a member of of the teacher's union, claims that they are the only thing standing in the way of the idea.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Ela, most of the people at my school who weren't on the way to college often finished up with high school one semester (or more) early, anyway, or just took bs classes to finish up their diploma.
believe me, it's almost certainly no great loss.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I'm assuming you didn't go to an inner city school, Stormy. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't get it?
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Stormy, you said
quote:Ela, most of the people at my school who weren't on the way to college often finished up with high school one semester (or more) early, anyway, or just took bs classes to finish up their diploma.
believe me, it's almost certainly no great loss.
I agree with you, if you are talking about middle class students, motivated students, and/or very bright students (like CT, up there ). I think the last year of high school can be a waste of time for some students; in fact, I offered my daughter the option of skipping 12th grade and going straight to college, since she was so fed up with her school (she decided not to take that option).
However, the students I am worried about, and the types of individuals that I have run into where I worked, are not as motivated, and not as likely to finish up or go on to a technical school without the proper motivation from their teachers. Many get little to no motivation from home (if they even have parents who are present at all). Many are stuck in poverty, stuck in the welfare system, with little to no hope for a better future.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
No, I'm saying the exact opposite. The people who were heading into college were still very busy their senior year of high school with calculus or ap classes and the like. all the non-college kids had basically completed their requirements by their senior year.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
And, lest I dig myself into a hole, I imagine a good high school guidance counsler, or a motivated teacher can definitely be a GREAT thing in a student's life. Since I had neither, and never had at any of the four or so different high schools I attended, my attitude towards what a school can do for you is probably biased.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
Florida has another system that allows students to graduate early: virtual school. One of my friends is doing this. The coursework is completed online, and the student comes in to classes every other week for two days (in the evenings) to make sure the instructor has answered any questions the student may have.
Most of the kids in this program can receive a regular high school diploma by sixteen.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:No, I'm saying the exact opposite. The people who were heading into college were still very busy their senior year of high school with calculus or ap classes and the like. all the non-college kids had basically completed their requirements by their senior year.
Okay, then how does that relate to what I said about being concerned about certain groups of students finishing high school early?
Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
Double sessions are where there are two school days per day. Kids are divided into morning shift, which might run from 7 am to noon, and afternoon shift, which could run from noon to five pm. It allows the district to reduce the class-sizes without building more buildings. Of course, since the typical student's day is currently around 7 hours, some adjustments need to be made. One possibility is not interrupting classes for lunch. The morning shift could eat lunch after their last class, and the afternoon shift could eat lunch before first period. But that still leaves over an hour to trim. So we take away some electives to make the day fit, maybe.
What is not clear yet is how this will affect teachers. Do we go to the shorter schedule like the kids do, thus earning less? Or do we go to ten-hour days, earning more but killing ourselves in the process? Or do some of us do one and some of us do the other? My family has four people basically in the system: me, my wife, and my two kids in school. My wife and I don't work at the same school anymore, and my kids don't currently attend the same school. What if we get put on different shifts? If we work two shifts, what sacrifices would we have to make to arrange childcare. Suddenly, it starts to look attractive again for me to leave teaching and double my salary, freeing up Cor, and not having to pay for after-school care. Although the last three years of teaching have been my happiest in the field.
-Icarus Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Okay, then how does that relate to what I said about being concerned about certain groups of students finishing high school early?
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). I think the last year of high school can be a waste of time for some students; in fact, I offered my daughter the option of skipping 12th grade and going straight to college, since she was so fed up with her school (she decided not to take that option).