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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
I just wrote an IQ Test and I just couldn't solve this question:

There is a system for pricing items at the candy store. How much should the chocolate cost?

ice cream 32 cents
lollipop 34 cents
licorice 32 cents
jawbreaker 42 cents
gum 13 cents
chocolate ???

Someone help me out

Pericles
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
Rainman would say it's a dollar.

Also, you "wrote" this test and you can't solve one of your own problems?

[ April 30, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
anyone???
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
how is it a dollar?
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
consanants are worth 5 vowels are worth 3 add them up
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
It's just a joke. You've seen the movie Rainman? You should.
 

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Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
 
wouldn't that be 37 cents?
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
yup.
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
doh!
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
A weightless and perfectly flexible rope is hung over a weightless, frictionless pulley attached to the roof of a building. At one end is a weight which exactly counterbalances an orangutan at the other end.

If the orangutan begins to climb, what will happen to the weight?

1. It will remain stationary
2. It will rise
3. It will fall
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
And Pericles is the first person ever to fail his own IQ test.
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
it will rise, assuming the monkey is climbing up.

edit: to add monkey thing.

[ April 30, 2004, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
* he proudly takes a bow *
mercie mes amies!
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
You have a ten centimeter by ten centimeter square with a flap on the top edge. Unfolding this flap reveals a second flap, and unfolding this second flap reveals a third, as shown. If there are an infinite number of these flaps, what is the area of the entire figure (in square centimeters) when they are all unfolded?
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
"why will it rise" asks the doubtful naysayer
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
10*infinity square cms?

[ April 30, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by :Locke (Member # 2255) on :
 
How long is the rope?

How much does the cow weigh?

How do you spell?

From: Luke and Andrew's Super Duper IQ Test
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
I'm having trouble visualizing this one.
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
To MEC:
How does it rise considering the force of gravity doesn't increase as one climbs up things does it?
If both masses are equal, how does it become heavier. Wouldn't it remain stationary?
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
The monkey is exerting force which is transferred by the pully onto the counterbalance (I think, physics not my strong suit).
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I'd have to say the decrease in length of rope increases the rope's tension thus pulling the rope till both sides tension's are equal.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
In balance situations, the downward force exerted is the product of the weight and the distance from the fulcrum. Thus, as the orangutan climbs upward, it reduces its distance from the fulcrum, reducing it's pull. So the weight ought to go DOWN.

Of course, I could be full of it.

[ April 30, 2004, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
You try that...I think you're thinking of situations where torque is applied, not force.

In this case both masses forces pull downwards, however the tension in rope is reversed to oppose the force of the masses.

[ April 30, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Yeah, my answer seemed counterintuitive to ME . . .
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
If I'm wrong with the tension thing then it probably has to do with the masses' potential energies.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
I think it would go down. Center of gravity has to say the same since no external energy is added t the system.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by littlemissattitude (Member # 4514) on :
 

quote:

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it will rise, assuming the monkey is climbing up.

edit: to add monkey thing.

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Except for the fact that an orangutan is an ape, not a monkey.
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
monkey, ape, whatever, call it a fish for all I care.

I quess i'm wrong on that one.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
The more I think about it, the more I think it'll stay the same. Does it affect the weight either way if the monkey is two feet from the pulley or twenty feet from the pulley? The rope still won't move because the weights are even.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
If it was a teeter-totter, it would absolutely have an effect. (Which is toque, so it doesn't necessarily mean I'm right. But it goes to show that there may be more to the situation than just weight.)
 

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Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 
Wouldn't the monkey need to exert a force downward on his side in order to climb? And wouldn't that bring the other side up?
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
Or maybe it's like a tug of war with two equally strong opponents on either side of the rope. Does it matter if they start 40 feet apart and then one guy walks forward while still maintaining the same force on the rope? The other guy still won't budge.
 

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Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 
But he also has gravity acting downward to give himself traction.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
Okay, so imagine that it happens out in space, and instead of two guys, its two identical rockets firing in opposite directions, and one rocket is capable of moving itself along the rope by some inner mechanism or something. Will the rope move either way?

[ May 01, 2004, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
 

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Posted by Mr.Funny (Member # 4467) on :
 
Hmmm... I think in that case the rockets would both move closer to eachother at the same rate (assuming they were firing away from eachother). The excess rope would extend past the rocket with the mechanism. If compared to the monkey thing, it would still have the weight going up. But, I might be totally wrong.
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
*rips up IQ test*
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
The weight only goes up or down if the rope moves. I think in the rocket scenario the rope won't move.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
I don't think the rocket scenario is analogous because there is nothing like a fulcrum. A pulley must act somewhat similarly to a fulcrum, or there would be no mechanical advantage to it.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
Would you have an easier time hauling something up using a pully if you grabbed the rope nearer to the pulley rather than farther away from it? I don't think so. I don't think it acts like a fulcrum. I think its mechanical advantage is that it uses gravity to pull things up rather than actually having to be at the other end of the rope pulling up.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 

quote:

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Would you have an easier time hauling something up using a pully if you grabbed the rope nearer to the pulley rather than farther away from it? I don't think so.

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Actually, I think you may have just pulled my point. Nearer to the fulcrum, you exert less downward force.

Oh wait, I think I misread you.

No, I think you might have an easier time pulling on a pulley if you are further from the pulley.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
Okay. There's a room ten feet high. There's a pulley on the ceiling with a rope around it. On one end is a five pound weight. Would it make a difference if you pulled the weight up pulling on the rope from the ground or if you climbed a ladder and pulled on the rope from the ceiling? No. A pulley doesn't give you any leverage, just changes the direction of the rope.

[ May 01, 2004, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Sadly, I don't have enough real experience with pullies to know if you're right.

There has to be more to pulleys than simply getting gravity to help you pull, or why would systems of multiuple pulleys, like in sailboats, be useful?
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Keeps the lines from being all over the place on the sailboat.
 

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Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
 
After reading mack's post I deleted my lengthy and uninformative reply. That one makes much more sense.

[ May 01, 2004, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: jehovoid ]
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Okay, I cheated, and the interweb says the weight would move up. Anybody want the linky?
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
No, mack's reply is not correct. Multiple pulleys multiply the mechanical advantage. The interweb says so.
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
multiple pulleys multiply the rope so you get the force of the tension for each line of rope through the pulley, but you have to pull the rope further to move the object the same distance. force * distance is constant (conservation of energy), so if you have enough pulleys to 1/4 the force required, you have to pull 4 times as far.

[ May 01, 2004, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
and yes, the weight moves up.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
That's what I get for trying to think outside of the box. :-p
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I am TOO correct. Coming from a sailor, all those lines laying all over the boat would send folks overboard pretty quickly.

Oh...and that leverage thing. But they aren't mutually exclusive. You CAN sail a dinghy without pulleys, but it isn't pretty.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Okay, I misstated: mack's reply, though correct to a point, is incomplete.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 

quote:

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You have a ten centimeter by ten centimeter square with a flap on the top edge. Unfolding this flap reveals a second flap, and unfolding this second flap reveals a third, as shown. If there are an infinite number of these flaps, what is the area of the entire figure (in square centimeters) when they are all unfolded?

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What is a "flap" exactly? I mean, I understand it's a flap of folded-over paper, but how wide is it?

"as shown" where?

This is an infinite series problem, but I think I need more specifics to answer it . . . at least, I'm too lazy to think about it much until I know more.

[ May 01, 2004, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
*spies a cloud on the horizon*

*calls out below*

"if ya'll could stop deliberating, maybe we could get this showboat on the road!"

err... sea, I mean.

*pulls nearest leg*

fallow
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
At least it wasn't a finger.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
doh!
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Three Little Words

Crud. It cuts out right before the refrain!

[ May 01, 2004, 02:10 AM: Message edited by: Megachirops ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Which was?
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Okay, I seem to have found the song in its entirety.

Of course, it's a two or three minute download, and I'm not sure it's totally legal, althought the site I found it on had a link to the band's own page, so (I'll delete it if you think I should.)
 

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Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
 
On the flap one ... if there are an infinite number of flaps, and you are unfolding them one at a time, then there is no such thing as a time when you've got them all unfolded.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
We have to have a diagram for the "flap." Is it the same size as the original 10 cm square? Half the size?

Assuming the flap is at all smaller than the original, and each succeding flap is smaller than the previous one by any amount, the total area will be finite. The exact number will vary with the ratio of each flap to the preceeding one.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
The weight may stay still, go down, or go up, depending on how the monkey climbs. Assuming that the rope is taut, if the monkey climbs in a way such that he keeps the rope taut (he maintains the original distance from the pulley) the weight will not move. If he climbs in such a way that the rope is pulled (he increases his distance from the pulley), he is imparting energy on the sysem, and the weight will move the exact same distance closer to the pulley. Vice versa if the monkey moves in some manner towards the pulley (he is implicitly reducing he Potential Energy with respect to the monkey-pulley-weight system). This is all because this situation is a closed system.

Of course, if the monkey is frictionless as well (which it would have to be or else you'd have to take that into account as he climbed), then the monkey couldn't climb at all.

So I claim the weight won't move, no matter how hard the monkey tries to climb.

-Bok
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I assumed the flap was the same size because he didn't specify how much the flap is compared to the previous. if each one gets a fraction of the length of the previous then the solution is:
100 / (1 - x) where x is the fraction of the length of one flap / the length of the previous flap.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Bok, how tongue-in-cheek is your answer?

How many different ways to climb are there?

(And did you notice I already looked up the answer to this specific question?)
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
MEC - I just ran this out to 63,000+ terms (Excel is a wonderful tool) and it's not even close to the formula you gave. And all numbers in at least the last 2000 are 0 to 12 decimal places.

Here are the results

code:

---

RATIO               TOTAL AREA
1/10                  101.0101010101010
 1/5                    104.1666666666670
 1/4                    106.6666666666670
 1/3                    112.5000000000000
 1/2                    133.3333333333330
 2/3                    180.0000000000000
 3/4                    228.5714285714290
 4/5                    277.7777777777780
 9/10                   526.3157894736850
 .99                   5025.1256281406800
 .999                 50025.0125016523000

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code:

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          *--------*
          |        |

          |        |

          |        |

          |        |

          |        |
*---------*--------*--------*
|         |        |        |
|         |        |        |
|         |        |        |
|         |        |        |
|         |        |        |
*---------*--------*--------*
          |        |
          |        |
          |        |
          |        |
          |        |
          *--------*

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Isn't that the biggest it could ever get?

[ May 01, 2004, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Nato ]
 

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Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
 
(this is suneun) Sorry, my ape going downwards depended on the rope having weight. And since the rope doesn't, the ape doesn't go down.

Still pretty split on whether the ape goes upwards or remains in place. Don't mind me, carry on.
 

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Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
 
I'd just like to point out that jehovoid's analogy on the previous page with the two rockets is exactly correct. All the pulley does is change the direction of the tension in the rope, so if you replace gravity with thrust from rocket engines (assuming you could keep the thrust going forever, and neglecting change in mass from the exhaust) you get exactly the same situation. Except for the fact that a rocket is not an orangutan.

From this point it should be pretty clear that the rocket doing the pulling is pulling itself and other other rocket closer to the system's center of gravity at an equal speed, which is half the relative speed of the pulling rocket and the rope.

This isn't rocket science, folks.

Edited to add: imagine you and a friend are playing tug of war. In a pond. In innertubes. You pull the rope. You and your friend both float closer to the midpoint between you. Now, same situation, but you're both kicking away from each other equally. Voila (or viola as some would say).

[ May 01, 2004, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Enough of this monkey buisness. (sorry I couldn't resist)
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
For more exciting arguments and theories based one these example of questions, quickly go to www.highiqsociety.org . This is where I went to to find out my iq. To join the high iq society you need at least an iq of 120 to qualify, and even then its not free...so I didn't join. But the free iq tests are fun and the puzzles are brain rattling. Have fun and post your IQ's. Let the "Member in Hatrack with the Highest Intelligence of 2004" begin... huff huff...

Pericles
p.s (I qualified for the "special" division. I feel "special")
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I was wondering, if the rope is massless and the ape exertes energy to climb, wouldn't it then burn calories climbing, effectivly reducing it's weight, and causeing the mass to fall?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
MEC: the ape is 100% efficient.

Good for physics ponderables, bad for dieting.

Dagonee

[ May 02, 2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
But just because it's 100% efficent doesn't mean it doesn't use energy. It just means that none of it goes to waste, right?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Man, nothing ruins a good joke like insistence on precise scientific wording.

Party pooper.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Just because the ape used up energy doesn't mean that his mass will have decreased. It's just that his chemical composition will have changed, but no mass.

Of course, he has to breathe, and will constantly be losing H20, and therefore mass. Unless he's wearing a space suit.
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
And then he'd eventually run out of air in the suit, die, and fall of the rope.

Pericles, I took the "Ultimate IQ" test on their site. And a lot of the questions didn't provide enough information. Anyway, I scored a 150 on the test, I'm in the highly gifted catagory.

[ May 02, 2004, 08:25 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
That's exactly what I got on the verbal test.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
I just tried the verbal. Only got a 120. Guess I'm only above average on verbal...
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
And now the culture one: 140, gifted(1 point away from higly gifted).
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Is it me, or is a site that thinks the SATs correlate that well to IQ scores highly suspect?
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
rivka, please. We're trying to maintain our illusions, not shatter them.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
Terribly sorry. Ignore the woman behind the curtain.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
There's no place like my carefully maintained mental construct.
There's no place like my carefully maintained mental construct.
There's no place like my carefully maintained mental construct.
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Here's a list of some other IQ groups and their average acceptance rate:

Mensa
www.mensa.org
2%

Internel
www.internel-iq.org
1%

The Top One Percent Society (TOPS)
www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/tops.html
1%

Colloquy
steveheller.com/colloquy
0.5%

Poetic Genius Society
www.poeticgenius.com
0.5%

The Cerebrals Society
www.cerebrals.com
0.3%

The International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (ISPE)
www.thethousand.com
0.1%

Triple Nine Society
www.triplenine.org
0.1%

The One-in-a-Thousand Society (OATHS)
www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/oath.html
0.1%

The IQuadrivium Society
s-2000.com/iquadrivium
0.1%

The Prometheus Society
www.prometheussociety.org
0.003%

UltraNet
www.megafoundation.org/Ultranet
0.003%

The Mega Society
www.megasociety.org
0.00001%

The Giga Society
www.gigasociety.org
0.0000001%

[ May 02, 2004, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: MEC ]
 

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Posted by Pericles (Member # 5943) on :
 
You guys are so intelligent. Way out of my league. Maybe by "special" you think I meant super intelligent. By special I meant "special-education" or "special olympics" "special". I only scored 129. I mean I'm sixteen and I ONLY SCORED 129!!!

(Excuse me while I wallow in self pity)

Pericles
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
You're being sarcastic, right?
 

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Posted by MEC (Member # 2968) on :
 
Oh, and the solution to the folded flaps problem's answer is 150 cm^2. The first reduction in length is 1/4 then the rest are 1/2. so the equation was 100 + (25/(1-(1/2))) = 150.
 

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