OSC has stated numerous times that science fiction is the last real avenue of religious thought in literature. This is a concept that intrigues me. Where does theological thought stand in the world of contemporary fiction? Aside from works of apocalyptic speculation, where has speculation on God,gods, and Higher Powers, gone to hide. And I speak not of religious texts, just fiction. New ideas. New perspectives. Has humanity lost its imagination about its origins? Are we content with the current dogmatic standard in our literature?
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I like candy.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Well, it's worth noting that man generally does NOT speculate about religious origins much; we have a tendency, as a race, to believe what our parents told us.
Think about it: while there may be dozens of fringe cults at any given time, it's very, very rare to see a successful new religion or philosophy. That there was a wave of philosophical thought in the late '60s means, historically speaking, that we aren't due for another successful one for about another ten or fifteen years.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I like candy, too. Tastes yummy.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Speaking as a former secular humanist, I think that religious thoughts in a secular society (in the non-religious sectors of it) usually get channelled into other pathways. Feelings and thoughts that I now recognize as being religious were evoked in me by art (or artisanship), by literature (or storytelling), in appreciation of the beauty of nature (particularly in the woods and among the stars), and in contemplation of the profound beauty and unity of the universe, to the depths which we know it through science (mainly physics, evolutionary biology, and cosmology), and most particularly and directly through music of all sorts.
It was the same thing, just I didn't call it that. Maybe those words like God, heaven, sin, salvation, damnation, had too many negative and paltry connotations for me then. We cannot help but debase religion by associating it too much with our silly and picayune selves, maybe. It must ever be apprehended directly again and again in raw pure form. Like the difference between listening to your friend go on and on about the person he loves, and falling in love yourself. Posted by KrimsonReaper (Member # 6532) on :
Yes. that is the type of reply that I like, ak. I agree with you totally and wholeheartedly, but can we inspire and encourage those thoughts through literature? I see it occasionally, but not nearly enough. Words have power. They can affect you so deeply, causing irrevokeable change in how you both think and view the world. What I am saying is that rarely do I see authors seeking to do this anymore. Writing fiction, and especially poetry, is about evoking an emotional response from the reader. That is what is important. Is art--in my opinion, the closest glimpse of divinity we are allowed--in all of its forms, dying in modern thought. Or is it just manifesting itself in more obscure ways? I know my answer.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
Isn't there actually a pseudo-religion called the religion of art? Paul Gaugin springs to mind, maybe he has something to do with that.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
This is semi-on-topic.
I met with an editor about a story I have been writing, based on the Epic of Gilgamesh. part of her feedback was that I would have to be very careful about speculating what the religion of ancient Iraqis might have been like. I was like, HUH? You mean, people would not know it was fiction?
It just made me realize how many choices editors must make about how we think as a group.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Is art--in my opinion, the closest glimpse of divinity we are allowed--in all of its forms, dying in modern thought. Or is it just manifesting itself in more obscure ways?"
I would argue that art is not just manifesting itself in "obscure ways," but is in fact flourishing in a way that it has not done in hundreds of years.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Tom, Do you get what she said?(my editor) I mean, I get it, but I so disagree with it! A fictional piece, even if based on part history, should be able to deviate from the religious norm, shouldn;t it?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I would argue that there's plenty of fiction out there that deviates from the "religious norm" of Western civilization. A lot of it, of course, is produced in other civilizations, if only because most people write what they know -- but there are still a good number of Western authors who write books chock-full of non-Western religion. (Consider Richard Bach, for example.)
Fiction is a mirror for society, not a beacon; it reflects more than it directs, and that shouldn't surprise anyone.
---------
That said, Elizabeth, I think your editor is being a bit P.C. -- but that, too, doesn't surprise me. The Epic of Gilgamesh was at one point as real to Iraqis as the story of Easter is to Americans. Of course, the myth of Hades, Persephone and Demeter was once believed by a few Greeks, too, but that doesn't stop us from pillaging that myth for Xena scripts. I'd imagine that your editor, precisely because she doesn't recognize Gilgamesh as part of her own cultural mythology, isn't comfortable deciding whether it's "right" to encourage playing fast and loose with the ancient details. Of course, that suggests you should find a less ignorant editor, but still....
[ May 09, 2004, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
ak,
quote: I think that religious thoughts in a secular society (in the non-religious sectors of it) usually get channelled into other pathways. Feelings and thoughts that I now recognize as being religious were evoked in me by art (or artisanship), by literature (or storytelling), in appreciation of the beauty of nature (particularly in the woods and among the stars), and in contemplation of the profound beauty and unity of the universe, to the depths which we know it through science (mainly physics, evolutionary biology, and cosmology),
There's a mouthful. AK, what are these pathways? I don't understand your commentary on appreciation?
fallow
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Tom, The woman was actually a very good editor, but was saying what the publishing company would say. (Scholastic) And you are probably right, that they are going to stick with the norm as much as possible. I like your analogy of pillaging the ancient Grek myths. That makes sense, when I look at it that way.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
OK, I just read something about the movie "Troy" and cannot find the link. Brad Pitt said they did not put the gods in the movie because, and I paraphrase: "Modern people are not ready for that," or some darn thing. Gar. I wish I could find it.
So now we can't even handle the Iliad? What is up?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I read they didn't put the Gods in because bearded guys in clouds tossing down lightning bolts was a little too cheesy even for this movie. As in CLASH OF THE TITANS territory.
That explanation I believe.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
But the thing about the Greek gods was that they appeared as humans, or animals. i think it would have been cool.
Also, it is just a teeny, tiny bit of the story.
Posted by KrimsonReaper (Member # 6532) on :
Mention of the gods should have been present, but actually seeing them would have been foolish. After all, did the Greeks ever actually see them? To hear the epics, one would say yes, but I am inclined to say no. Rather, I would say that they--like all who believe in some higher power--saw manifestations of the power of their gods in the everyday events that surrounded them. They attibuted to the gods the wonders and miracles of their lives. This is not hokey. This is a beautiful thing, and it is as timeless as religion itself. So, yes, I think that they should have at least talked about the gods, but I must agree that their choice to not show them was wise. Have you ever seen the face of your Maker?
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Well, I tried that when I read the Iliad, but it just doesn't work. I mean right at the start, Athena comes down on the battlefield and takes Achilles by the beard and says "listen to me". What I ended up doing is provisionally believing in the Greek gods existing inside the universe of the story. Sort of the way the Keeper exists inside the Homecoming series. And then applying that to the world I know in whatever way seemed to fit.
I think they should have shown the gods. I mean, without Athena doing that, Achilles would have slain Agamemnon right at the start of the story, and then there would have been no story. You can't just leave her out. She's real.
One night at City Stages, our outdoor music festival, I happened upon a fight just getting started, and I don't know why but I put my hand on the angrier one's shoulder and said quietly "listen to me", and stopped the fight. <laughs> A great feeling of joy had come over me somehow or other, and I realized there was no reason at all for fighting, and I just wanted to tell him that. <laughs> It was the next day before I remembered Athena taking Achilles by the beard on the field of Troy and using those very words. My guy didn't have a beard, though. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Oh, and fallow, I'm not ignoring your question. I just can't understand what you are asking. I never seem to be able to understand the things you post. I'm sorry. If you can make it simpler for me I will try to answer.
Posted by KrimsonReaper (Member # 6532) on :
Yes, I do agree. But would it not be more to the credit of the director and screenwriters if they were able to pull off the same effect, with Athena gaining full credit for her actions, without actually seeing her do it? Were this a factual occurence, would he have seen her do it? Or would he have spoken later to his close ones about this voice he seemed to hear, clear as day; like someone was standing right beside him? Would he have told them theat he felt this pressure, like his beard was being pulled upon? And that his heart told him that the goddess had spoken to him, that she had restrained him with her wisdom? I am picturing a quite moving dialogue, one that speaks of faith and conviction. The kind of monologue that Oscars are made of. Is it not more of an accomplishment to bring it to the viewer without special effects? Do special effects live in your heart?
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Maybe, though, some random passing chick got possessed temporarily of Athena, and for a moment she seemed to shine like the sun, and when she looked into his face and said "listen to me", her radiance was such that he could not ignore it. Then afterwards, she faded away, a happy, but ordinary girl once again. That could have been how it happened.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Sure. *shrug* Or, more likely, they just made it up.
[ May 11, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
ak,
My thoughts tend to condense themselves into the type of paragraph I quoted from you above. What do you mean by religious thoughts and the channelling of them into other areas/forms/endeavors/inquiries/activies?
fallow
Posted by KrimsonReaper (Member # 6532) on :
See now, ak, that wasn't that hard. All kinds of ways to make it believable without losing any of the power. Just avoid, hokey-ness. But we've gotten off topic. This was supposed to tackle the subject of literature, not film. And I don't mean Western religion when I speak of the religious norm, I speak of all mainstream religions worldwide. Including Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Wicca, Christianity, Judaism, Islam. These have all become the religious norm in one place or another. I want to discuss the absence of new speculations about God and the universe. New philosophies really. Writing was built upon philosophy, which often was religious in origin, yet literature nowadays seems to shy from it. Can we really blame it on the publishers? To a point, maybe. But not all publishers are like that. Many are looking for change; enough isn't being offered, though.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
One of my favorite books that I just reread is "Round the Bend" by Nevil Shute. You might be interested in it, Krimson, as it seems to be exactly the sort of thing you're asking about. It's a mainstream novel, set around the end of WW2, mostly in the Persian Gulf. Nevil Shute rocks!
fallow, email me about this question if it matters to you, and I'll make what answer I can. Posted by KrimsonReaper (Member # 6532) on :
Will do, ak. Thanks for the recommendation.Does anyone else out there have anything to say, or will this topic just fall into the abyss of dead and uninteresting doggerel?
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