I'm interested in what everyone thinks about the differences and similarities of faith vs religion.
My take is that religion is the outward expression of faith.
Those that reap security from the outward acceptance of religious protocol but feel no connection to the God sanctified by the particular religion they are practicing don't qualify (in my book) for truly practicing a religion. They are engaged in a social club that they find comforting.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
This is kind of like drinking vs. drunkeness. Is there really any reason to drink besides getting drunk? Are there folks who actually like the flavor? This is what I always wonder... are there folks who actually like going to church?
I know there are folks who may be there for their family. I dunno.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I actually DO like the flavor of a few drinks but can't drink because it makes me sick. Posted by Dillon (Member # 6536) on :
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
So Pooka, which is which? I'm a homebrewer, I happen to love the taste of good beer, but I hate being drunk. If you were to equate one with the other what would it be? I personally would rather profess to have faith but no religion rather than no faith but (practice) a religion.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
I've drunk for the purpose of intoxication like once in the last two years; of course we like the flavor (Bud Light wankers need not apply).
On a completely separate note, yes, I've found I enjoy going to (some) religious events whose actual spiritual contents I find ridiculous.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Richard, do you claim to be part of that religion, though?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I would say that the vast majority of people participating in religious observances do so for the sake of the observance and not for the sake of the religion itself. Witness, for example, the enormous popularity of those Easter and Christmas Eve services that concentrate on carols and chorales.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Tom, So you would maintain that many people would profess to be religious but have no faith?
[ May 12, 2004, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
But to actively disbelieve it? There's a difference between just being a slacker and fundamentally disagreeing with something.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I grew up in a family that was nonpracticing christian. Meaning, we "celebrated" christian holidays like christmas and easter, but never inside a church.
Posted by Polio (Member # 6479) on :
I think that religion is pointless. "Religion" to me means mindless ritualism, rules and guidelines. Rather, faith should reflect in one's relationship to their deity rather than a religion. The word "religious" has become twisted to depict uptight, hypocritical, non-committal parishoners who have faith but do not live it outside of church. Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Tom, So you would maintain that many people would profess to be religious but have no faith?"
Yep. Not only that, I maintain that many people profess to be religious but know next to nothing about the tenets of the religion to which they claim to belong.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Faith is trust in something, whether it be religious beliefs, laws of a faith, the actions of a friend, the love a parent, or the love of God.
Religion is a thing you have faith IN - a set of actions, ceremonies, beliefs, and divine beings.
[ May 12, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I can't really argue with this Tom. My point is that faith dictates your religious affiliation. I can't reconcile a difference between your faith and your professed religion.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
quote:Not only that, I maintain that many people profess to be religious but know next to nothing about the tenets of the religion to which they claim to belong.
Impossible, because a religion is just whatever those who belong to it think it is.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"My point is that faith dictates your religious affiliation."
Again, you would be well-advised to talk to American Catholics, Culture Mormons, or atheist Jews about this one. Or any Methodist who's moved to a new city and decided to go to the Lutheran church because they liked the people and/or facilities better.
[ May 12, 2004, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Punwit- Judaism is not like christianity, in which you are a member of the religion by holding a certain faith.
I had a bris, and a bar mitzvah. In the eyes of judaic law, I'm jewish, and can never be otherwise.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
*growls at Tom*
I’ll give you “many.” If you’d said “most” I’d have argued, but I have to agree with “many.”
And you can add people who want to be married in the church because they like the idea of it, but think of the building and the clergy as wedding accessories. Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Ok, Paul so regardless of your personal beliefs your religion will always be Jewish? I'm not ridiculing here I'm trying to clarify
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
punwit,
That thread seems to misuse the term, religion. You are not a part of a religion just by going to religious ceremonies of a given sort.
Maybe, though, to Paul "Jewish" doesn't imply a belief in God - like how "Christian" can mean different things to different Christian denominations.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Tres- Wrong. Jewish does imply a belief in god, but doesn't mandate it.
Punwit- Yes. I'm jewish by birth, and by judaic law, and by culture, and by the ceremonies I engage in, which include, but are not limited to, observation of all major holidays, keeping many of the dietary laws, saying the shabbat blessings and lighting the candles every week, and observing a good portion of the 613 commandments.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Tom, I still maintain that if you proclaim that you have no faith in God that assigning a religious appellation to yourself that includes a belief in God is somewhat (to be kind) silly. There may be some rules regarding Judaism that I am unfamiliar with but that doesn't change my perception of faith and religion. It does influence the way I interpret Pauls use of the term tho. So considering Pauls viewpoint I was wrong.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Judaism doesn't require a belief in God? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to figure out how you can be the chosen people if there's no one choosing.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
There's really no good answer, kat. Religion is a lot like language in that respect.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Paul,
If you don't believe in the God proscribed by your religion why do you adhere to the other rules?
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
Are you sure you're not mixing up being Jewish (in terms of heritage) with having Judaism as your religion?
[ May 12, 2004, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I'm thinking that the fundamental difference here is the definition of religion. I would be sincerely appreciative if Paul or any one else that defines their faith as seperate from their religion would define both and elucidate how they are different. I've already provided an example. To me, faith is the internal commitment associated with the external practice of a specific religion.
I'll be waIting.
Dang I was missing an eye. No wonder eye had a hard time seeing this arguement
[ May 12, 2004, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
If religion is nothing more than a club, then why is it any statement to call snowboarding a religion? The devotion is obviously more what you are calling faith. But I don't know any snowboarders who would say it is a great way to spend time by calling it a "Faith".
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
*raises eyebrow*
Oh, the temptation.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
c'mon Mack give it up. You've got the photographers eye.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: To me, faith is the internal commitment associated with the external practice of a specific religion.
This does seem a bit idealistic. Paul is by no means the first person I've "met" who is Jewish and an Atheist. Atheist Mormons are a bit more rare, but seem to exist. I was one, for a while. That is, I felt it impossible that the God being described in Church existed. This was not what I would call agnosticism, in terms of having a sense that there is a benevolent intentionality in the universe that some might call God.
So I guess the more relevant question is not "What is faith" but "What is Atheism".
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I KNOW this site has many educated religious people. I REALLY want to to know what the party line is concerning faith and religion. Are they flip sides of a coin or are they completely seperate ideas. C'mon I know you guys are there.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Jewish can describe more than just your religious affiliation. If I told you I was a christian atheist what would your reaction be?
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Ok Pooka, I gave my definition of faith and religion, lets hear yours.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
While this link was interesting I'm not sure exactly how it relates. Please provide some commentary.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
To answer your earlier question, my reaction would be ho-hum, because such people are pretty common.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Richard,
You and I aren't so different. I'm trying to make a point that I think you share and you aren't helping me. Not that you should but I think our veiwpoints are similar.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
In case this helps... a thread on "atheism as religion" from a few months ago. There was a great deal of discussion on a definition of religion that would not include atheism.
Anecdotally, I have many friends who characterize themselves as both Jewish and atheist. I even have one atheist Jewish friend who keeps kosher. I believe she told me that it's to remember the history, suffering, and life of the Jews before her.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"Judaism doesn't require a belief in God? I'm not trying to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to figure out how you can be the chosen people if there's no one choosing."
It does, but it doesn't. The first commandment, obviously, is rather important to judaism. On the other hand, there are laws concerning who is and who is not jewish... and that IS religion, not just culture.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
[nb: assuming they still wipe threads older than 12 months, I don't think any statement of my religious beliefs appears on these forums]
Ok, let's back up further. The trouble with defining words like "religion" is to be inclusive without losing meaning. Moreover, you can't make a decision and say "that's that" because it's a term that (1) a lot of people want to be identified with who will inevitably hold beliefs just outside your boundaries (2) a lot of people who are inside your boundaries will object to its expansion.
Some resultant conflicts are straightforward, like Lutherans not wanting to accept that Gnostics self-identify as Christian. But it also leads to problematic comparisons even from a neutral POV: atheistic Judaism and, say, Freemasonry are both belief systems that value tradition, culture, moral structures, fellowship among members, etc. but one claims to be a religion and the other does not. Is it possible that both are correct?
Frankly, I don't find the question very interesting. The only people truly interested in its semantics are probably nonprofit tax lawyers. If you think I'm being too dismissive, I'm just the wrong person to ask.
The original religion vs. faith question has more facets, though. Limiting ourselves to religions whose commonly-accepted tenets require some articles of faith, what does it mean for nonbelievers to identify themselves with them? I'm not even sure how I'd answer kat's first question myself, because I think Tom makes a category mistake -- "I would say that the vast majority of people participating in religious observances do so for the sake of the observance and not for the sake of the religion itself" -- the religion is part of the observance, even in the most "sola fide" Protestant circles. This is why notions of identity are the subject of good fiction and long theses.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Punwit, what do you mean by "feeling a connection to God"? My first reaction would be to say that I feel no such connection. But that's not the same as "believing in God".
(I believe in Canada, but feel no connection to it.)
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
My point was that I have a hard time reconciling a difference between faith and religion. On another thread a poster made a distinction between his faith and his religion. His faith was atheism and his religion was jewish. I questioned that. As I said when I started this thread I believe that faith is internal while religion is the outward manifestation of faith.
Perhaps the term connection to God was not the perfect way to phrase it. In my opinion if you have no belief in God, then proclaiming yourself as a practitioner of a religion that worships him seems oxymoronic.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Ah, I get it.
I suppose there's no further point in me cluttering up the thread, then. I just notice that a lot of people have begun talking about religious faith in emotional terms--I feel this, I feel that. Bah.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
I do agree it's kind of weird to include Judaism on a list of religions that don't require faith. But I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"On another thread a poster made a distinction between his faith and his religion. His faith was atheism and his religion was jewish....As I said when I started this thread I believe that faith is internal while religion is the outward manifestation of faith."
Well, then, there's no conflict. He has no internal faith, but he chooses to outwardly manifest a religion of a given internal faith that he doesn't actually possess.
I would argue, based on my own experiences and observations, that this is remarkably common in America.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Tom, are you using "American Catholics" to refer to some specific subset of Catholics in America, or to refer to all of them. If the former, I haven't heard the term used that way. If the latter, I think some qualifier is called for as in your references to Culture Mormons and atheist Jews. There are a LOT of incredibly devout Catholics in this country.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* But even among the really incredibly devout Catholics in this country, the number who genuinely believe (or are aware of) all Catholic dogma is vanishingly small.
Such a minority does exist. But I wouldn't even include a majority of Catholic clergy in its number.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:*nod* But even among the really incredibly devout Catholics in this country, the number who genuinely believe (or are aware of) all Catholic dogma is vanishingly small.
Such a minority does exist. But I wouldn't even include a majority of Catholic clergy in its number.
True - but there is no requirement in the Catholic faith that all dogma be known by all believers. If you just go by what's in the catechism, the number with comprehensive knowledge is much larger (allowing for occaisional mistakes).
Dagonee Edit to add Tom's quote since the page flipped.
[ May 14, 2004, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Tom, I understand that there are many people who attend religious services and don't understand or care about the doctrine or minutia involved with that particular religion. What I find odd is actively disbelieving in the central theme of that religion, namely the belief in God.
If you reference the origin of this thread you will see that I acknowledge that there are people like this. If they find comfort in the ritual, tradition and trappings of said church, that's great but I would dispute that they are adherents of that religion if they don't share the central tenant (ie belief in God).
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
punwit, at which point do you disagree so much with your self-professed religion that you cannot be really considered a member?
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Tom
I'm a poor person to ask because, at best, I would call myself a Pantheist (perhaps).
I would maintain that the core tenant (belief in God) is the basis for this particular discussion.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: Ok Pooka, I gave my definition of faith and religion, lets hear yours.
Sorry I didn't see this before. But I doubt this is the "party line". I guess in the context you are discussing, I don't believe religion is a good thing. I believe in faith as the internal commitment to God and a church as the institution. Is there something between Love and Marriage? Surely the two are seperable, and unfortunately there are those who are married and not in Love. I've done that for periods of time as well. But because my husband loved me and asked for me to continue trying, and have found myself more in love with him than before.
There is a bias that something felt in the heart is better or more important than what goes on externally. But the feelings of the heart are inconstant. So I think institutions are established to give direction to the power of our feelings (like water contained in a riverbank or a dam has much more power than if it were allowed to do what it "felt").
One more analogy is whether I could expect good results if I exercise only when I feel like it. I'm looking at those results right now and I can't really say I'm happy with that program.
I think cultural traditions inevitably form around institutions, which is why I say religion isn't a good thing. Something like, "mormons tend to be republicans (or in the olden times, democrats)" But do you feel religion is something different from the institution of a church? I don't want to go off on that if it's just a semantic question.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
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![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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Or any Methodist who's moved to a new city and decided to go to the Lutheran church because they liked the people and/or facilities better.