"Let us put to rest the myth the myth that low gas prices are good for the economy!" - Dick Cheney
OK.
Let us see...
We have two EX-Oilmen CEO's as President and Vice-President.....
We now have the highest oil prices of all time and a oil war!
Congratulations America!
You've earned it!
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
*shrug* As supply shrinks, oil wars are inevitable. Better to have them on our terms.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: "Let us put to rest the myth the myth that low gas prices are good for the economy!" - Dick Cheney
So high prices are good for the economy?
Posted by CalvinMaker (Member # 2032) on :
As a delivery driver who uses his own car, the high gas prices really kill me.
I saw a station the other day that was selling regular for $2.15 a gallon.
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
Dear God!
Posted by Strider (Member # 1807) on :
quote:As a delivery driver who uses his own car, the high gas prices really kill me.
agreed. it makes the commission less and less worth it. and robs me of money.
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
High oil prices are not good for the economy, although they are good for the environment. Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
Regular hasn't been down that low for us in a while, Cal. It was $2.37 at the station I saw yesterday.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
I saw on the news that Alabama has the second lowest gas prices in the country, after Texas. I don't have a gas guzzler, so it makes little difference to me, but it's nice just the same.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
I live in Houston, Texas the Machine City American Energy Mecca
Unleaded is $1.83 a gallon
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
There's some gas here in Colorado at $1.77 a gallon.
Hobbes
[ May 15, 2004, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Is there Gasoline in heaven?
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
There must be....after all there is a street of gold.
And where there are streets there must be cars.
And where there are cars there must be gasoline...
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
I would think GOD would be smart enough to create a car that runs on light.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
No, he would just get in and say go, and it would go.
Gas used to be a big problem since I used to drive a V8 Jeep. I now drive a four-banger Subaru wagon. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I here ya. Rock on, 1982 Civic Wagon!
I'm going to leave that spelling error there. People need to see the real me.
[ May 15, 2004, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by littlelf (Member # 6145) on :
I paid $2.37 for regular unleaded today, but there are stations in my town charging $3.17 for full service. Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Gas is about $2.20 in northern California. In the bay area it gets more expensive though. Around $2.37. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I've never been all that concerned about gas prices, so I'm always a little curious as to why folks get so wooried over them. Is it really THAT BIG a part of their budget?
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
According to the first chart I found on Google, crude oil would have to reach $59 (2004 dollars) to be an all-time high.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
See, fallow, most of the people responding leave their houses now and then.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
hopefully on bicycle if it's amenable to their lifestyle.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
My bike got stolen.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
It rarely is. Combine kids, extreme weather, heavy loads and long distances, and you leave relatively few people who can feasible get where they're going on a bike.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I've never been all that concerned about gas prices, so I'm always a little curious as to why folks get so wooried over them. Is it really THAT BIG a part of their budget?
While I do ride my bicycle as often as I can (my contribution to a better environment ), I still drive about 20,000 miles per year, and my car gets on average about 22 mpg, so thats roughly 910 gallons of gas to go that distance in my car. At $2.20 per gallon, that's around $2000 dollars a year. That's a large part of my annual income.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
but lifestyle is a choice.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
My husband commutes and doesn't get paid for travel. One week, he was breaking even everyday. He was making $10.00 and was working seven hours per day. (Because he wasn't getting paid for the commute.) You do the math. I should point out that he drives the company truck which gets terrible gas mileage.
quote: but lifestyle is a choice.
Yep. I choose not to ride home from the grocery store dragging my two kids and ten bags of groceries behind me on a sled. In 100 degree weather.
[ May 16, 2004, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Sure, lifestyle is a choice, but I'd like to keep a roof over my head. At the moment, this requires driving. However, I'm going to school within walking/biking distance, and I'll be working as an EMT in my own city.
Partly to save on gas.
I also had to quit my softball team because it's 45 minutes away and eats away mileage for two games per week.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
My mom-in-law gave me this nasty old Schwinn that I am in love with. I wish I could ride it sometimes, but there's no way to attach the kids.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
lifestyle is a series of choices?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Well, there are ways, they involve duct tape, and I'm pretty sure they aren't legal.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Legal, shmegal.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Fallow:
quote:...hopefully on bicycle if it's amenable to their lifestyle...
In almost every country outside the US it is practical to bicycle to work because there are no zoning laws keeping houses and factories apart. You can live as close to your work as you want.
People outside the U.S. accuse Americans of being gas guzzlers and rightly so. We guzzle gas because we know that it's not good to live next to cyanide-leaking 3M plants.
You can pay a dollar a liter like they do outside the U.S. and ride a scooter to work. You can live in Bophal and walk to work. Or you can pay $2.50 a gallon, live in the California mountains, and drive for three hours every day.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
what's wrong with scooters?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Scooters are great, but you won't last long on American roads.
I just got my wife one for Christmas, by the way. She has yet to venture outside the neighborhood on it.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
training wheels?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
fallow, I challenge you to get my three kids to school (two different schools) on time AND then get to my job on time on a scooter. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
rivka,
I will take up that challenge, conditioned on the services of one ak as scooter-mechanic.
fallow
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pfft. You won't have TIME to have a mechanic do anything. And I'd like to know where you plan to stow the kids -- in their car seats, natch.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
We're all gonna be wishing we lived closer to school and to work. Forget driving the kids to soccer practice.
Some of the choices we made back when gas was cheap can be reversed, but some we're going to have to live with. How about that ninth kid that jumped the neighbors from a minivan to a gas-guzzling Suburban?
At $4.00 a gallon it will be cheaper to burn human fat than to fire up the WHAM-MOBILE.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
where to stow the kids?
*taps* *frowns* *puzzles*
do you know their initial velocities?
*raises eyebrow*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Since I generally STOP the vehicle while they get in, I'd assume it's zero.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
oh that's not good. never come to a complete stop. what about momentum?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Safety beats momentum. It's not even close.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Do you have a particular color in mind?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Color of what?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
scooter.
I noticed when you came in here you had your eye on the electric blue one.
she's a beaut!
fallow
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
A couple of weeks ago here in Salt Lake a lady dropped off her niece at school and drove off, not knowing that the little girl's coat was caught in the door.
Not funny, but another problem solved by scooters.
Oh, and most people can't shave, pick their noses, and talk on the phone at the same time while scootering.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I have never shaved while driving.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
It's true, skillery. Rivka has never shaved while straddling an electric blue scooter.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Would attaching child-carrier panniers raise the insurance premium on a scooter?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Nah, those come standard, Mrs...?
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Life is a series of Choices?>!
OH! And I'm the Jesusest wine of the BUNCH! Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
They say bad food and good plastic, buy you better feet. You wait and see!
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
life is a series of informed (ill, mal, or freely) choices made.
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Pay your car payment.! Pay your insurance ( car) ) Pay your insurance ( health ) Pay your rent Pay your gas Pay Your Water Pay Your phone Pay your cable Pay your triple A Pay your 3 credit cars Pay it all away!
KING come Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Today about a buck ninety.
I don't care what faggohtish economists say as they hump a wad of money, oil is "healthy" at about a buck a gallon.
Add Car payment plus Car insurance plus a triple digit gas bill just for the privalige of driving to work?
Y'all people are crazy. Totally television brained crazy, and your religion is weak.
don't sell mammon as God.
it causes lots of trouble
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Bush #2 fired Enron as his top advisors and then his energy plan actually got worse.
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
Maybe people will start buying more efficient cars and driving less.
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
When I was at the Saudi Embassy a month or two ago, their mantra was "We want to keep the price of oil reasonable because this benefits both producers and consumers."
Bull.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Maybe people will start buying more efficient cars and driving less.
I've tried Sun, but I have to drive sometimes 130 miles to work. I can't ride my bike that far. I never drive for coffee and such though. Unless it's with a girl, that's different. Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
You should take a drive around Houston.
seems like 40% of the vehicles are the suburbans which are BIGGER than a short bus.
It's ridiculous
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Thor, maybe that's because, whatever their ethical problems, Enron knows what they're doing. They are, after all, a business, and they have to stay in business. Government, by contrast, has no competition except in highly unstable countries.
Posted by ssywak (Member # 807) on :
Wow, Mabus.
You're kidding, right?
Enron intentionally caused the rolling blackouts in California just so they could increase their own profits.
You want them dictating the country's energy policy?
Ayn Rand's utopian dreams of an objectove economy don't work. Companies today are so large (as are governments) that they respond too slowly to social pressures for there to be any sort of homeostatic (societally-regulated) control of their actions.
Think of trying to servo-control the position of an army tank turret with a motor designed to spin up a computer hard-disk.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
No, no, Ssywak. You misread me.
I was responding to Thor's (probably addled)complaint that after Enron stopped advising Bush his energy plan got worse instead of better. Enron's board may be despicable, but they are competent businessmen.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
BP has the best logo out of all the oil companies
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Competent? Maybe. But they were extremely unethical. I didn't like having to sit at home with no power for hours at a time, knowing that it was all a ploy to increase the thickness of some prick executives wallet.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Enron intentionally caused the rolling blackouts in California just so they could increase their own profits.
Can someone link this. I've heard the allegation before, but never seen a coherent description of the scheme.
Dagonee
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
See, here in Toronto some motorists are just refusing to pay the full price for oil. They'll pay what they think it's worth and take off. I guess it's annoying people that there's >$0.10 difference per Litre depending on where you are in the city (almost 4 Litres to an american gallon).
In Nova Scotia they passed a resolution requiring gas companies to give 2 days notice before hiking oil prices.
I just keep walking the 3.5 miles too and from work. The cost of pasta hasn't gone up at all.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Just google: Enron deathstar You'll also run across various other schemes.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Correction: Oil is not at an all time high. Gas is.
If you note, Diesel is at about the same price it was 6 months ago, while gas has gone up about 20-25%.
Why?
If you raise the price of diesel, all things become more expensive to ship. The result is rampant inflation.
That would create a very small net gain for the big bosses.
If you raise just the price of gasoline, people have a harder time surviving, and demands for higher wages increase, but the over all effect is increased profits.
Add to that the ability to blame environmentalist (We wouldn't be this high, they say, if we didn't have to reformulate the gasoline to get rid of the supposedly poisonous by-products), and the oil companies have a win/win situation.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Gas is still below the all-time high of 2.99 (inflation adjusted) in 1981.
I think shipping has definitely been affected. The last gallon of milk I bought cost almost $3, which seems really high to me. Unless there's a cow shortage or something.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
This is the only way we will evolve to other forms of energy. We will never stop using oil until it runs out or it becomes too costly to use.
Just imagin an entire layer of the crust turned into gas... Mmmmm... *breathes deeply* Who needs a ciggy when you've got pollution! Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
Ugh. You're right.
*keeps paying $20 a tank and too much for shipped goods* *still locked into car loan* *doesn't know anything about alternate forms of energy* *waits for day when smarter people solve these problems*
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
This would be a good time for an alternate-energy Manhatten Project. Bring the best minds you can get, throw 'em in a room and heap money on them.
Can't hurt, and it might work.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I was about to post that, Chris. Seriously.
It's a good idea, it's at least as important to our national security as any other issue right now. Just make sure the government owns the patents.
Dagonee
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
It would work.
So.
*looks at watch* *looks around* *reads mailing sticker on magazine on desk*
Man, what are they waiting for?
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Well...for someone to actually have the faintest glimmer of an idea for an energy source that might really substitute for oil.
It's not going to happen. When the oil goes, civilization will go with it. If I had any money at all, I'd be stockpiling food.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
That's the thing, it's really weird to realize most people are in a position where survival is dependent on factors we have absolutely no control over. I hate that! And I don't think being a skilled survivalist would be good enough. I think somehow, the bulk of society has to come to a solution because every man for himself can't work for the long run.
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Milk price increases are not related to the gas increase.
It seems there was a glut of milk on the market a year ago.
Of course, this didn't lower the milk price we consumers pay, but the milk prices fell on the wholesale level to the point that it didn't pay to milk the cow.
As a result many dairy farmers sold off their cows (or made 1/4 pounders out of them.)
Now, with many fewer cows, there is a shortage of milk, so the price has gone up.
Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
Oh.
Well... I still think... that we need to save the world.
Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
Got another problem. The amount of diesel being used/purchased is comparatively flat. So the same production facilities/capacity delivers an amount of fuel close to users' need. If the refineries keep those same facilities running the same way as they were in the past, the price run-up more closely tracks just the rise in crude oil prices.
However, SUVs et al are guzzling MUCH more gasoline than the cars they replaced. Since they were the fastest growing segment of new car purchases, the demand for gasoline is increasing sharply. Because US refineries run at near full production capacity, there are only two ways to increase the gasoline supply: Import gasoline from nonUS refineries; which boosts world gasoline prices. Plus gasoline is more expensive to transport for importation than crude oil, so that transportation cost must be also be passed on to the consumer price. And/or convert USfacilities which currently produce diesel over to gasoline production. Which means that those facilities would have to be shut down during the during the conversion process, again adding to cost that must be passed onto the consumer. Such a conversion would also decrease diesel supplies, leading to increased demand pressure which would cause a price rise in diesel.
An increase in diesel prices would also lead to increased transportation cost, which in turn leads to increased cost of delivery of consumer goods to stores (and gas stations). For many products, especially items found in supermarkets et al, the transportation cost already exceeds the manufacturers's cost to actually make the product. Again leading to a cost passed onto the consumer. Such additional costs would also disproportionately hit the poorer segment of society since food and other necessities make up a larger portion of their budget. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Speaking of which, it is somewhat misleading to compare gas prices based solely on inflation-adjusted dollars. The average household income for the lower three quintiles (60%) of wage earners has decreased in inflation-adjusted dollars. And the lower on the economic scale one looks, the greater the decrease. For minimum-wage workers in terms of hours-worked per gallon of gasoline, the true inflation-adjusted cost (ie the decrease in pay compared to the increase in the cost of goods in inflation-adjusted dollars) is currently equivalent to more than $4.25 per gallon. MUCH more if one is talking in terms of discretionary income, since they pay a higher percentage of their total income for necessities.
In terms of discretionary income -- ie money left over after paying for food, rent/mortgage, utilities, medical/dental care, childcare (for single-working-parent and dual-worker households), car insurance (which is mandatory for drivers), and taxes -- everyone in the lower 60% pays a higher price in terms of hours-worked per gallon of gasoline than that reflected by comparing the current cost to the highest cost in inflation-adjusted dollars.
[ May 18, 2004, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: aspectre ]
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
Does anyone remember when at the beginning of the Bush/Cheney regime, Cheney LAUGHED at the idea of conservation???????
Does anyone remember the SUV provision Bush put into his tax cuts where the largest SUV's could be WRITTEN OFF ?????
Aye Carumba!
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I heart that yesterday President Bush declined to use our strategic reserves to fight the increased cost of oil, blaming the entire problem on Democrats for, "Not passing my energy plan three years ago."
That Energy plan, which was probably put together by the oil companies including Ken Lay of Enron (but we don't know because VP Cheney refuses to allow anyone to see his guest list to the meeting where it was ironed out), and mostly included drilling in the Alaskan wilderness, which wouldn't have begun producing its limited amount of oil, for several more years.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: Does anyone remember the SUV provision Bush put into his tax cuts where the largest SUV's could be WRITTEN OFF ?????
I don't know if this is related to your statement above... but..
a co-worker of mine (rich kid) has a huge SUV that was manufactured to be compatible with running on 85% Ethanol fuel (if desired -- it can also burn regular unleaded.)
There are two fuel stations locally that offered the 85% Ethanol fuel (because we have an Ethanol plant nearby). The thinking, of course, is that Ethanol is better for the environment and local agrarian economy.
This co-worker was once bragging to me about his SUV, and I mentioned the station that I always fill up offers 85% ethanol for vehicles like his, and I asked if he burned it.
He said, "Hell no! I'm not going to drive out of the way to get fuel. I only got it equipped for Ethanol in order to get the tax break on it!" (or tax write-off, I don't remember which phrase he said).
I was disgusted by that attitude. He brought a gas-guzzling SUV with this enhancement just for the tax break, not because he really cares at all that Ethanol might be a better choice...
Farmgirl
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
Its weird when the best source of hard info comes from The Moscow Times Posted by Lara (Member # 132) on :
The feature article in this month's National Geographic is called "The End of Cheap Oil," it's very comprehensive. There's also an article about the Shiites in Iraq, together they're a good perspective on timely issues.
![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Color of what?
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)