During the 70's a new form of music appeared, that music would be Punk Rock. In my opinion I think Punk Rock is the best kinda music ever. To think it all started with The Ramones and The Sex Pistols. Also I love The Sex Pistols. WellI guess that's all I wanted to say...
-Tree
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I cannot say that I enjoy either. Sorry.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
*wishes for vomiting smiley*
..but to each, his own.....
FG
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Sex pistols were ok. as far as the 70s rebellions in the UK i took the ska route of fandom. like THE SPECIALS, and Bad Manners
[ May 19, 2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Punk is not good music. It is merely loud, rebellious, different and full of attitude. There may be artistry of some kind in it, but it still does not qualify as good music.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
that's crap!
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
hmmm, to school you, let's start with a newer punk record and work backwards. go download, or better yet invest the $10 for REFUSED - THE SHAPE OF PUNK TO COME on Epitaph records. listen to it all the way through at least once, then come back here and try to say that it is not good music.
*the above mentioned record is swedish for the record. and from the late 90s*
[ May 19, 2004, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Touched a nerve, did I? If you think that's good music, you must not know what the word "music" means. And I don't have the patience to educate you.
I can't believe you cited the Ramones and the Sex Pistols as examples of how good punk is. You know what I've always wondered? If any of those guys could actually sing or play instruments, why did they go to such great lengths to hide the fact from us?
[ May 19, 2004, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: UofUlawguy ]
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
There is good and bad music in pretty much any genre. Even Country and Rap much to my surprise. There is much in punk that is good music and much that is terrible but I can't think of a genre where that is not true.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
music - The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre.
how does punk not qualify?
tell me your definition of punk.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I didn't say punk wasn't music. I said it wasn't good music. It may be good something else (e.g. statement of belief, nonbelief, image, emotion, or political view). It may even be good art, depending on your definition of art. But it isn't good music.
And my only definition of punk is "that music which other people call punk, as exemplified by the Ramones and the Sex Pistols, which is often associated with a particular punk 'look' and punk behavior." Really. That's my operating definition.
By the way, we are not talking about particular songs. The way you set up the premise to being with, we are talking about the punk genre. I do not doubt that there may be individual punk songs that are good music. In fact, I would be surprised if there aren't. But I would say that they are good in spite of being punk, rather than because of it.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
quote: If you think that's good music, you must not know what the word "music" means. And I don't have the patience to educate you.
you didnt question my definition of music?
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i think the "punk" element in many songs and bands contributes to the quality, it doesnt diminish it.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
No, of course I didn't question your definition of music. Look again. I said 1) punk is music, but 2) it is not good music, so 3) if you think it is good, the only way you are right is if it is good something-other-than-music, which may be the case.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
it looks like all we can do at this point is agree to disagree.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Maybe so. But I'm not so sure.
The only thing I really argued with is the assertion that Punk is "good music." I admitted that individual punk songs might be good music, though.
I would also argue that Country, Hip-Hop, Jazz and Rock and Roll are not "good music," while individual songs might be.
I prefer Classical music, personally, but that's kind of unique because for the most part we only listen to the pieces that have stood the test of time. At the time those works were originally written and performed, I would say that most of the contemprary music was not "good music" either. That's why most of it has been forgotten and is never played.
The point is that you can't just point at a whole classification of music and say it is "good music." Music doesn't work that way. Most of it is crap.
Granted, I did make some cracks about the Ramones and the Sex Pistols, but that's just because I can't stand their sound. I find it unmelodious and ugly, but that's really just a matter of taste.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
fair enough.
Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
Ramones were from NY, doofus.
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
UofU, you probably won't do it, but listen to the first 4 or 5 tracks off of Bad Religion's The Process of Belief album.
Yeah, punk is pretty simple, but it is also very visceral. I like visceral, whether it's anger (punk) or sacredness (J.S. Bach). Or anything else.
-Bok
[ May 19, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Bokonon ]
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
Jeez Ben.
Punk was made to piss some people off!
To try and defend it to Utah Mormons and other conservatives is just plain wrong.
These people won't like it. They aren't supposed to.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Ah, it wamrs the cockles of my heart to see people reduced to mere lables like that.
[ May 19, 2004, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
hehe. actually dude, SLC has a huge hardcore scene. many mormons contribute to said scene.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
And by "hardcore" you are also including your former self.
I've seen pics of you Ben, you are about as Hardcore as a girlscout .
Really though, the Mormon beliefs and punk music are mutually exclusive.
Perhaps some are ex-Mormons or pretend Mormons.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
looks (and kindness) can be deceiving...
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
If you don't believe him go search "hardcore girlscout" on google.
Posted by narrativium (Member # 3230) on :
Tree, you might like a band called BANG sugar BANG. They're old school-style punk band from LA. I saw them when they played in New York.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
It's crazy to dismiss the entire genre of punk. Say instead that you DON'T GET IT! <laughs> Okay? That's all. You just don't get it.
There are two parts to music, chops and "it". Music is really about the it, and chops are just a means to get there, but what tends to happen at certain intervals, is that people forget that and start to go after more and more elaborate chops. The endpoint of that can be overproduced, technically competant crap.
The late 70s is a time I'm thinking of that was like this. It got very elaborate and also there are huge barriers to entry. Well, guess what? Music is really about "it", and there are no barriers. Pick up your guitar and play.
Punk and other movements that happen from time to time in art and all artistic fields, (like maybe abstract expressionism is a good example), are about getting back to what matters. To the "it" part. The spirit and the joy, perhaps you might call it, though that limits it unnecessarily. Really it's just "it", the undefineable thing that makes music good. Punk and similar movements bring this point home viscerally.
(Another example: the very early Beatles were technically extremely bad. They could barely play, and they had to double-track all the vocals to make them sound decent. Yet they had "it" oozing out all over.)
People who only care about chops (technical proficiency) are missing the whole point. Anyone can get chops if they practice. The it is the reason you WANT to play. The magic is all in the it.
[ May 20, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
ak:"There are two parts to music, chops and "it". "
Hey, that's an exact quote of the opening sentence in my Music Theory textbook!
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Really? Whoever wrote that book must be pretty smart.
This is my own theory but it's so obviously true that I wouldn't be surprised if someone else realised it. Odd that they put it exactly the same way, though. They called it "it"? Really?
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Um, no. Not really. Totally being facetious.
Posted by Xavier (Member # 405) on :
I would like to point out here, that aka rocks, and I am completely unsurprised that she is the exception that proves the rule .
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
UoULG For a moment I thought you must have encountered a theory textbook written by a real musician.
Xav: Exception to what? I'm not a representative of any category as far as I can tell. My dad was a musician/computer systems analyst/engineer/artisan who built telescopes, boats, etc. and read philosophy and mathematics. My mom is a leftist housewife capitalist investment wizard who believes in "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" and revolutionary theology. I'm a little bit of all those things and more as well. Did you mean because I'm a hatracker? Or because I'm LDS? Or maybe because I'm old? Punk itself is pretty long in the tooth by now, and it's not nearly the first such movement.
In fact, Joey Ramone was a great investor before he died. He was fascinated with Wall Street and all that, like my mom. I thought that was cool.
edit: Ah, I see your thesis now about Mormon belief being incompatible with appreciation of punk music. <laughs>
[ May 20, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
quote: Really though, the Mormon beliefs and punk music are mutually exclusive.
Perhaps some are ex-Mormons or pretend Mormons.
I don't think I'm a pretend Mormon, and I'm certainly not ex. So I have to refute your thought, here.
Brigham Young said that everything true is part of our religion. That is very true.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
ak:"In fact, Joey Ramone was a great investor before he died. He was fascinated with Wall Street and all that, like my mom."
I heard that on public radio after his death. They played a song he recorded toward the end, all about Maria Bartirromo (who, I understand, is a cable TV journalist who covers Wall Street).
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Really though, the Mormon beliefs and punk music are mutually exclusive.
I think you are confusing Mormon bleliefs/doctrine with mormon attitudes/culture.
I don't care for Punk not because it's against my religion, but because I just don't care for it.
edit: I just realized that you were probably not serious. If you weren't, then forgive me for not recognizing a joke.
[ May 20, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
UofUlawguy,
quote: It is merely loud, rebellious, different and full of attitude. There may be artistry of some kind in it, but it still does not qualify as good music.
So, what is your definition of good music? Is it just anything that has withstood the test of time or do you have some other qualifier?
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
UoULG: Yes, it turns out that she was a fan of the Ramones as well. Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
I have a WIDE collection of punk songs. If you say you don't like punk, I'm sure I could find SOME punk you like. Punk. >_>
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
[ May 20, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
That too! Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
RE: Punk and Mormonism.
If we're talking about punk songs that tout an unsophisticated just-destroy-all-without-thought attitude or glorifies mindless sex and drug use, then, yah, that's rather incompatible with Mormon values.
But a lot of punk isn't about that.
If we're talking about punk that rails against commercialism, phonyism, militarism, coporatism, fascism and Thatcherism, then I see nothing there that necessarily would offend a Mormons religious beliefs -- political beliefs, yes. But that's a different area.
I like the Sex Pistol raw energy and attitude -- "Anarchy in the UK" "God Save the Queen" etc. -- but even members of the punk scene thought they were self-destructive posers. At bottom they were more all attitude and little substance, imo. I much prefer The Clash, The Ramones, and the post-punk of Social Distortion and Bad Religion. Or of Joy Division.
Which reminds me, I don't know the '80s So-Cal scene as well as I should. Time to scour the used cd stores for Black Flag, Agent Orange, or X albums. Anybody have suggestions on what I should get first?
Posted by Kasie H (Member # 2120) on :
Is The Clash considered a punk band?
If they are, how DARE you say punk music is bad!!
I don't particularly care for the Ramones, but the Clash....
*blasts 'I Fought the Law'*
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Punk is all about rage. Thus "gansta rap" is punk for the black folk. It's all about the rage...
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Punk is less about rage and more about do-it-yourself publishing/performing.
But nothing is *more* punk than discussions about what is *truly* punk .
EDIT to add: Thus, despite the rage, Gangsta rap is too over-produced and marketed to be punk. NWA and Public Enemy is more in the punk spirit than Dre, Snoop Dogg, or Tupac.
[ May 20, 2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Zalmoxis ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
quote:1967: The hippie counter-culture saw that the world sucked and promised to change it with love. 1977: Punk culture saw that the world still sucked and raised a middle finger in defiance.
1981: Goths understood all along the importance of a good smoke.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
80's so-cal:
Crimpshine (which later spawned FIFTEEN in the late 90s after he sobered up)
Op Ivy (which later spawned Tim Armstrong and Matt Freeman's dozens of other bastard projects, the most famous of which is Rancid)
Bad Religion
umm yea, others
[ May 27, 2004, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:There are two parts to music, chops and "it". Music is really about the it, and chops are just a means to get there, but what tends to happen at certain intervals, is that people forget that and start to go after more and more elaborate chops. The endpoint of that can be overproduced, technically competant crap.
... Punk and other movements that happen from time to time in art and all artistic fields, (like maybe abstract expressionism is a good example), are about getting back to what matters. To the "it" part.
Spot on, ak. That explained a lot to me.
*impressed and taking notes
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i'm amused how this thread seemed to become NOTHING to do with UK Punk and simply became a defense for punk itself.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
The Darkness the best band in circuitry today! Believe!
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Touched a nerve, did I? If you think that's good music, you must not know what the word "music" means. And I don't have the patience to educate you.
This might be one of the most ridiculously arrogant things ever said on Hatrack.
When you say, "I don't have the patience to edcuate you," I'm seeing, "My opinions are better than yours and I don't have a reason that can justify my obvious bigotry."
[ May 27, 2004, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
darkness DO bring the rock. but the punk?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Okay. Now this has gone far enough!
The "punk" movement started at CBGB's in New York City, not in the UK.
The Brits were just quicker than the Americans to pick up one of the coolest styles of music ever.
Television Rules.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote:Crimpshaw (which later spawned FIFTEEN in the late 90s after he sobered up)
It's Crimpshrine actually.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
*snickers*
It kind of seems like you haven't read all of my posts on this thread yet. If you had, I don't think you'd be quite so up in arms.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
you are right...how could i have mistyped that. dammit.
i've been schooled...yet again. this happens to me alot on hatrack.
[ May 27, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: It kind of seems like you haven't read all of my posts on this thread yet. If you had, I don't think you'd be quite so up in arms.
Heh. I'm just stating an observation I have made, I'm not up in arms. I'm not angry with you. I don't even like punk all that much.
I did read all your posts.
I just think that was a very arrogant post, and I said so.
[ May 27, 2004, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Well, if it was arrogant, it was so by design. I felt that I had good rhetorical reasons to sound that way.
Not to say that I'm not a music snob. I definitely am. But that wasn't why I chose an arrogant tone.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I think you're forgetting about the bigoted part too.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I considered "arrogant" and "bigoted" to be two words for the same thing, as used in your post.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
DUMBEST. THREAD. EVER.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I considered "arrogant" and "bigoted" to be two words for the same thing, as used in your post.
I'm sorry but you're mistaken. I clearly used both properly. I still want to know how you can justify your position. I would rather not argue about my wording, rather than the message brought about by them, which is quite clear.
[ May 27, 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I make no attempt to justify the position. The position was a pose, but a pose to make a point.
My actual position was expressed in a later post. I thought I had made that clear.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Oh, and Jon Boy -- I can't even imagine how dumb a thread would have to be to qualify as the DUMBEST. THREAD. EVER.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: I make no attempt to justify the position. The position was a pose, but a pose to make a point.
My actual position was expressed in a later post. I thought I had made that clear.
So the above is your way for recanting the below statement? I mean, your ACTUAL position was that you don't think that just because a song is punk it's good. I agree, but that's not what I'm talking about. THAT position WAS quite clear.
I'm asking you to explain how the statement below would not make you a bigoted and arrogant jerk, or admit that you were being a bigoted and arrogant jerk.
quote: Touched a nerve, did I? If you think that's good music, you must not know what the word "music" means. And I don't have the patience to educate you.
[ May 27, 2004, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Nick, lay off. He was obviously acting superior to make a point. You might not like how the point was made, but there is no need to throw around weighted words like "bigot".
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Yeah Jon, you're right. Forget it. I just don't like people getting insulted.
quote: Nick, lay off. He was obviously acting superior to make a point.
Not obvious enough I guess.
[ May 27, 2004, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It seems that the word "bigot" can mean anything these days.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
I'm not going to continue this. I really wish this board had a private message system.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Nick, if I made that statement with a straight face, I probably would be exactly what you say. But I didn't. I was goading the giddy punk fans, trying to pop the ridiculous bubble they had blown. I mean, making such sweeping and vainglorious claims about the entire punk genre is just inviting a fan of a different stripe to comment, isn't it? So that's what I did.
Then, in the later post, I made my real argument. I was really just poking fun at people who identify so strongly with a single brand of music that they don't even ask themselves what good music is. Good music isn't a kind of music.
I guess I just had flashbacks to my high school days, when it seemed like every petty little clique was identified by the brand of music they listened to, as well as those they did not.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Now that I can respond to in a civil manner.
quote: Nick, if I made that statement with a straight face, I probably would be exactly what you say.
I thought you DID mean what you said. Then this was all just a misunderstanding on my part. I saw NO sign of sarcasm.
Posted by Sarcasm (Member # 4653) on :
quote:I saw NO sign of sarcasm.
That's surprising.
*strikes again*
[ May 27, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Sarcasm ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
I guess I was having too much fun in that role.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: It seems that the word "bigot" can mean anything these days.
MPH:
quote: Nick, if I made that statement with a straight face, I probably would be exactly what you say
Maybe I don't have the wrong definition of "bigot", just the instance in which to use it? I thought he was being serious. Jon and UofUlawguy: I need to cool off. I'll talk about this later when I can possibly give a more sincere apology than what I have on my mind at the moment.
[ May 27, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
now, THAT was funny. (referring to sarcasm)
[ May 27, 2004, 07:47 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Alright. I've thought about it. UofUlawguy: I'm sorry that I didn't see the sarcasm. I really could not tell if you were joking or not. For that I apologize most sincerely. I also apologize for saying you were acting like a arrogant and bigoted jerk. I see now that you're not.
Solo: Telling me to "lay off" as if you had the right to commmand me around is something I think is very rude and innapropriate. Not to say my actions were appropriate either, but my point still stands. Beyond that I have nothing civil to say.
Jon: I haven't misread sarcasm like this on Hatrack in years (Frisco comes to mind), so I fail to see why your were sarcastic in saying "That's surprising." I'm not writing this in anger, I'm just honestly curious as to why you think it's not surprising that I miss this obvious act of superiority as sarcasm. Like I said, this hasn't happened in a while.
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Nick, I don't expect you to read my mind. I'm really not surprised you didn't catch the sarcasm. I didn't make it very obvious. But I was kind of surprised that it seemed to be such a big deal to you. Surprised, but not offended or upset. I don't get upset over stuff I read here. After participating in message boards for six or seven years, I know that 99% of the problems are caused by simple misunderstanding. So I always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
...*belated twitching at mention of the Darkness*
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: After participating in message boards for six or seven years, I know that 99% of the problems are caused by simple misunderstanding. So I always give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
I wish I could have as positive and attitude. And I'm grateful that you're not angry and you're not going to hold a grudge, because honestly, I don't think I would blame you. I did say you were acting like an arrogant bigot.
Why did I get so upset? I'm sure some of you are wondering that. Well people used to talk down to me like that all the time. I refuse to take it. I don't like it seeing it happen to other people either.
When people talk down to others with such arrogance (and mean it, mind you), it makes me very upset because I know what it feels like, if that makes sense at all.
[ May 27, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
I really hate it when someone says something completely stupid or hateful, and when they're called on it, the person who calls them on it is yelled at.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:I haven't misread sarcasm like this on Hatrack in years (Frisco comes to mind), so I fail to see why your were sarcastic in saying "That's surprising." I'm not writing this in anger, I'm just honestly curious as to why you think it's not surprising that I miss this obvious act of superiority as sarcasm. Like I said, this hasn't happened in a while.
Because even though you have gotten a lot better about picking up on sarcasm, you still take things too seriously on occasion, and you still have somewhat of a reputation from your earlier days, I think. But mostly I was just trying to be funny because it seems to me that you're a pretty good sport about stuff like that, so I thought you wouldn't mind.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
now, on with the punk.
Hooray for THE QUEERS
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
Oh wonderful. More stuff I took too seriously and more people I offended.
Jon, I lost track of the context of your joke because of the shock that UofUlawguy was kidding. Sorry about that...
[ May 27, 2004, 11:55 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Punk sucks! How could you people like this music? The bands can't play. I can't stand listening to punk. If you think punk is good music, you don't know what real music is.
Oh, I'm just being sarcastic.
Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
quote: Punk sucks! How could you people like this music? The bands can't play. I can't stand listening to punk. If you think punk is good music, you don't know what real music is.
Posted by solo (Member # 3148) on :
Hey Nick,
Sorry about coming down hard on you. I just didn't like how this conversation was going about and I found your use of the word bigot as insulting and destructive. I picked up on the sarcasm where you did not so I had a different perspective about the situation. I should have used a little more tact instead of adding to the negative leanings of the thread.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
I still think the title of this thread is wrong.
>_<
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I'm reminded of a certain gay, Swedish, punk band.... what was their name?? TurboNegrets? They were really silly and were part of NAMBLA or something. Posted by Nick (Member # 4311) on :
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
For a moment I thought you must have encountered a theory textbook written by a real musician. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)