I say nevermind the quality of the pretentious sequels--the imagination and force of the first one hasn't been surpassed yet in the science fiction world by any of it's authors...ever.
You know it's true.
*baits Card fanatics, gets can of Coke...and waits*
Edit: thanks to Katharina for pointing that I misspelled "baits"! =)
[ May 26, 2004, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: the Somalian ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I loved Dune. Haven't tried any of the sequels yet.
space opera
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Wow, your reasons for your opinion have shown me the errors of my ways. Please, tell me what else to think in less than 3 sentences!
Posted by Valentine014 (Member # 5981) on :
Yes, Dune is brillant. But to say that it's the "Greatest Science Fiction Novel of All Time"?
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I would say it definitely is one of the greatest of all time. Top 5 at least. I think that the later ones in the series started to drag though. I don't think the prequels are pretentious. I like them for what they are and don't try to compare them so much to the originals. I just welcome another dip back into that universe in whatever guise it comes. Nothing is ever as good as the original(in most cases) so I don't expect it to be. Definite top 5 on the list. So is Ender's Game. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
bates?
Posted by the Somalian (Member # 6557) on :
"Wow, your reasons for your opinion have shown me the errors of my ways. Please, tell me what else to think in less than 3 sentences! "
Many err in their ways, but you are on the correct path since you have recognized your errors. With some time and effort you too can come to see the greatness of "Dune" and why it is the greatest science fiction novel of all time...why, in terms of imagination, it even surpasses Tolkien's LOTR saga in its daring fusion of politics, science and philosophy --in its compelling Machiavellian plot and memorable characters. I'm sure you'll one day see this. =)
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
Kathy? Norman? Katherine Lee?
---- And, BTW, the first book is almost meaningless without the sequels.
Posted by the Somalian (Member # 6557) on :
"bates?"
It seems I have undermined my assertions with this blatant display of stupidity. I meant baits...=(
Posted by pH (Member # 1350) on :
*stare*
Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
That wouldn't be the Care Bear stare now would it, ph?
Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
Are you walking on dangerous ground by saying that Dune is the greatest SF novel ever, and posting it on an OSC site? Just food for thought.
(I'd put it in my top ten, personally, but would find it hard picking any one book as the best.)
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Ugh... Dune the "greatest" science fiction novel of all time? It was the most-readable of the series (the sequels were far too thick, stylistically, for me to get into), and it was a decent, but IMO it falls far short of the greatest.
Maybe it's because I quickly tire of the "wheels within wheels" that Herbert seemed to love so much.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I wouldn't argue with the earlier top 5 comment, but I could make a case for: The Mote In God's Eye, Childhoods End, Ringworld, and an obscure one that I absolutely loved when I was younger, Earth Abides. I think if I spent more time on this I could do better but this was just off the cuff.
Posted by the Somalian (Member # 6557) on :
"Are you walking on dangerous ground by saying that Dune is the greatest SF novel ever, and posting it on an OSC site? Just food for thought.
(I'd put it in my top ten, personally, but would find it hard picking any one book as the best.) "
I probably am. I love Card's Ender quartet and place it among my favorites series of all time. I went through a Card phase back in the 8th and 9th grade--reading the quartet & Ender's Shadow and numerous short stories. Beyond that though...with the exception of the Bean series...I haven't been able to "get" into Card's other material. For instance, I couldn't even read the first book of the series that's supposedly inspired by the Book Of Mormon. The only reason I come to this site isn't out of fanaticism for Card but because of his movie reviews--I find him to be one of the few straightforward and honest film critics on the web.
Regarding Dune, I love it...perhaps I should just leave it that.
Posted by the Somalian (Member # 6557) on :
"wouldn't argue with the earlier top 5 comment, but I could make a case for: The Mote In God's Eye, Childhoods End, Ringworld, and an obscure one that I absolutely loved when I was younger, Earth Abides. I think if I spent more time on this I could do better but this was just off the cuff."
Okay...I'm so reading Ringworld now. You are the second person I've seen today who mentioned it in such overwhelmingly favorable terms...
I've read Childhood's End and I'd see it's good, but Clark was somewhat limited with his characters & prose...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:why, in terms of imagination, it even surpasses Tolkien's LOTR saga in its daring fusion of politics, science and philosophy --in its compelling Machiavellian plot and memorable characters
This statement is far more risky and wrongheaded than any comparisons to OSC.
Dagonee
Posted by the Somalian (Member # 6557) on :
"This statement is far more risky and wrongheaded than any comparisons to OSC."
Dune is my LOTR, you dig?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Sure, I dig, you daddio.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
It seems unfair to discuss this without Leto around, so let me just add this, hopefully in his spirit:
Damn straight. About time you realized it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I never felt the need to read Dune until I discovered that here I felt remarkably left out. So I did. And although I don't consider it the best science fiction novel of all time, I really liked the way it was written, and the characters, and therefore, I loved it.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
So, if it is your LOTR, then you admit that LOTR is the ruler you must measure it against?
Maybe you aren't as wrong as you seemed at first....
Kwea
[ May 26, 2004, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Hrm. I'd put foundation on any list of the greatest sci fi novels of all time. And if we're gonna talk lotr, then I think you also have to put memory sorrow and thorn in the top five... ahead of lotr. Ender's game is obviously up there, and dune is as well.
Off the top of my head, my list would go MST, Dune, Ender's Game, Foundation, Pastwatch in any order.
I would probably adjust that list if I thought about it for a while.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Welcome to my opinion, folks!
Like the LoveBoat, but without the 'exciting' and 'new'.
Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
Dune is like many series in SF where the first book is great and the rest are not up to par. I would put Ringworld on this list, along with the second Thomas Covenant series (not as good as the first three books), and Asimov's last Foundation novel. I think publishers force authors to write sequels so much that they ruin good ideas and series with less than valiant efforts (another example of this is all of the really bad movie sequels).
Fortunately, Tolkien is not around to be forced by a publisher to write "The return of the return of the king."
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'd put Dune in my top ten, certainly, as a standalone novel. As a series, it's not in the running.
Posted by BYuCnslr (Member # 1857) on :
Stanislaw Lem -The Cyberiad Best Sci-Fi author alive. I mean...how can you compete with a book that has "A Good Shillacking" as a title of one of it's chapters? You just can't. Satyagraha
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Put me down as another reader that considere Dune one of the best SF novels of all time, but not THE best.
And for those who are mentioning Childhood's End, I just don't understand where you're coming from. I read that book several months ago because it was on somebody's list of 100 best SF books, and I thought it was quite ordinary.
Personally, I think that there should be more Philip K. Dick on everybody top ## lists -- particularly A Scanner Darkly.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Put me right to sleep.
[ May 27, 2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Sopwith ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
As a non SF reader, I will simply say that I have read the Ender's Quartet and 2 1/2 of the Dune books. Dune seemed pretty good while I was reading it, but I didn't feel compelled to finish the series. I think the measure of a great book is you don't have to be a genre junkie to like it. IM(ns)HO.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Dune ROCKS!!
"God Emperor" and "Chapterhouse" were my two favorites. God Emperor is the linchpin of the whole story.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
A Scanner Darkly was eerily accurate.
There are so many parallels that another thread would have to be started to discuss them all.
Mad, but prophetic.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Robert Jordan modeled "Wheel of Time" after Dune.
Posted by Godric (Member # 4587) on :
After five aborted attempts to read Dune, I have resigned myself to taking a well-earned tongue lashing...
Other sci-fi authors I've tried to read without success have been Heinlein and, if he counts, Vonnegut.
Posted by jehovoid (Member # 2014) on :
Dune is one of my favorite words that rhyme with noon.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I hope Sci-fi channel makes "God-Emperor of Dune"... that would be COOL!! *can't wait till Battlestar*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm just about finished reading God Emperor of Dune for the second time. About half of what Leto says (and pretty much all of his quotes from the stolen journals) make me go "Herbert, just because you are incomprehensible doesn't mean you are profound."
Did anybody else feel this way, or am I just really thick and not understanding things?
edit: Maybe it's because I haven't read Chapterhouse nor Heretics of Dune.
[ July 31, 2004, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Dune is definately one of my top 5, but I really can't say about best.
My top five would be: Dune, The Gods Themselves, Ender's Game, Pastwatch, The Naked Sun not especially in that order.
Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Are we talking about OSC's Pastwatch? Is it really that good? I've never picked it up because it looked incredibly dull.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
punwit:
quote:I wouldn't argue with the earlier top 5 comment, but I could make a case for: The Mote In God's Eye, Childhoods End, Ringworld, and an obscure one that I absolutely loved when I was younger, Earth Abides.
Earth Abides is absolutely seminal. I wasn't aware that it's obscure; sad if true.
Dune as a standalone doesn't even register on my top 20. It was a fun, easy read, but I expect a little more from my sf, and books in general. As a series? Bleargh.
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
I didn't like the first Dune book as much as the sequels--up until Chapterhouse, that is. God Emperor was my all-time favorite, and probably what I would consider the best sci-fi book apart from OSC's work.
I stopped reading the prequels. I got up to the Butlerin(sp?) Jihad, but the second one in that series was too full of made-up technical terms and bad soap-opera-like characters to keep me interested.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
[This post has been deleted for general crudeness.]
[ August 02, 2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I first read Dune in the 8th grade, after reading, for the most part, the endless Dungeons and Dragons-like novels that were abundant in the eighties.
So for me, Dune was the first novel I read that had enough substance for me to want to know more about science fiction novels. After reading all the sequels, and re-reading the sequels every few years, I love the series as a whole. Strangely, God, Emperor of Dune was my least favorite book, but was haunting enough for me to appreciate Herbert's work. But for me the real tradegy was finishing Dune: Chapterhouse Dune , seeing Herbert's vision being culminated in some sort of HUGE finale, and having his dream unfinshed. This is what makes the series so fascinating and frustrating for me.
I too was very excited about the prequels and the first two were horrible . However, the Butlerian Jihad novels have picked up considerably in pace and vision to Herbert's original works, and have given me just enough hope to keep reading.
I can only hope that if KJA and Brian finish this masterpiece that it is with more substance and material than the tripe that made up House Atreides and House Harkonnen
Is it the best sci-fi novel of all time? Geez, I dunno. I would honestly say I do not have a top novel to enshrine as number one, but if I did, it would most likely be Speaker for the Dead .
I too also vote highly for Tad Williams Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series, and I too enjoyed them more than LOTR!
However, in terms of movie adaptations, LOTR spanks any and all challengers. Word.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm dissapointed to read that Butlerian Jihad is better than the other two prequels. I haven't finished it, but it's pretty horrible. I can only imagine what the other two are like.
How much of the prequels are based on Frank Herber's ideas and how much was just made up for these books?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
just out of curiousity.
have any of the post-mortem dune books been worth reading? I haven't bothered, but I did "love" that series for one obsessive summer.
fallow
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
As mr porteiro head eluded to, they are like Diet Dune. They remind you of Dune, but leave a bitter aftertaste that leaves you longing for the real thing.
[ August 02, 2004, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: Alucard... ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
alu,
thanks. good to know. I shall continue to avoid them like the Atkin's plague.
fallow
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Atkin's is communicable? Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Dune was just, well, downright boring. Sorry.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
That's OK. No matter how crappy something is, there are people that will love it. And no matter how good something is, some people won't like it.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
quote:Robert Jordan modeled "Wheel of Time" after Dune.
If you consider the few parallels between Dune and the Wheel of Time -- e.g. the Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit both being "witches" and the Aiel and the Fremen "desert warriors" -- as Jordan "modelling" his work on Herbert's, you might as well claim that Dostoyevsky created Raskolnikov with Abraham Lincoln as a prototype, since both at least once in their lives made use of an axe.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:If you consider the few parallels between Dune and the Wheel of Time -- e.g. the Aes Sedai and the Bene Gesserit both being "witches" and the Aiel and the Fremen "desert warriors" -- as Jordan "modelling" his work on Herbert's, you might as well claim that Dostoyevsky created Raskolnikov with Abraham Lincoln as a prototype, since both at least once in their lives made use of an axe.
What? You mean if whole groups and methods are similar, it amounts to equating one simple thing about one simple unverifiable incident? That sounds rather far fetched. I don't claim anything about Jordan's book, but that's because I have never read it, and almost all reviews from people I trust keep it that way.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Jutsa, I was exaggerating to illustrate my point. The Wheel of Time has a very different plot, a totally different feel, different milleus, magic system, characters and writing than Dune. While they share a few similar elements -- elements that are common to countless other stories -- saying that one is modeled on the other is, in my opinion, totally baseless.
[ August 02, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
DUNE ROCKS!!
Long live the Spacing Guild! Long live the Bene Tleilax!
I too see the many similarities between Wheel of Time and Dune.
Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
Well, it was your quote that started this tangent, Telperion.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Oh! Wow... look at that. That'll teach me not to skim threads or look at the dates! Posted by policyvote (Member # 3044) on :
As has been mentioned by others, I read Dune in Junior High because it seemed to be required reading for those into SF. I loved it, even if I didn't really 'get it' at the time. I've read it several times since, and liked it more every time. I haven't ever been tempted to read any of the other books--party because everyone says they aren't up to par with the original, and partly because I saw no need. The first book, to me, stands on its own very well.
As far as the "greatest" goes, I suppose it would have to be mentioned in any discussion. Certainly the "greatest SF novel" would have to classic and ubiquitous as well as surpassing in execution and originality.
I don't think I'm well-read enough to even name anything else as a contender. I've always been fond of The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, personally . . .
Peace policy
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I have to admit, I watched the miniseries version of Dune long before I read the novel. And by miniseries version, I mean the one that broadcast on network TV in the mid-80's (I could probably date it by the car commercials on my videotapes if I really wanted to ) that had a male narrator instead of Virginia Madsen (in her role as Princess Irulan). Sting as Feyd-Rautha..... yummy
Even though I'm a big sci-fi fan, I really don't think I could have made it through even the first Dune novel without having seen the movie. And I still have not been able to get through Heretics or Chapterhouse
I've really been enjoying the prequels so far. The House series were absolutely wonderful and really helped to fill in a lot of the gaps in the relationships between the different Great Houses that even 10 years later still had me confused. Jihad had me reeling with surprise in a few places, Crusade left something lacking but wasn't bad. I'm definitely looking forward to Battle... two weeks until release and my library still doesn't even have it on the hold list!
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
How has this thread managed to exist for over two months without sparking another sakeriver poll? Mr. Slaine, you are seriously slacking.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Goody, you're thinking of the David Lynch movie version, which was had a theatrical release in late 1984, as I recall.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
OMG. Sorry Mr. Saxon, I have been seriously slacking.
We have done a greatest author, but not novel....
Hmmmm....
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Last time I read Dune books, I got stuck in Heritics. Now, although I almost got stuck in God Emperor, am devouring Heretics, and am almost ready to start in on Chapterhouse.
Posted by Rhaegar The Fool (Member # 5811) on :
Sorry, "The Song of Ice and Fire"
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
quote:Goody, you're thinking of the David Lynch movie version, which was had a theatrical release in late 1984, as I recall.
As my information has it, yes and no. Lynch did the theatrical, which had Virginia Madsen doing the voice-overs. The version I have on videotape definitely came from WGN television, has a man doing the voice-overs, and has scenes that the theatrical doesn't have. After major searching for a DVD of the version that I do have (because my tapes are getting kind of worn out ), I was finally advised that mine is a miniseries version that because of the extended format allowed them to put some things back in for the broadcast version.
Hmmm, think it's time for another re-viewing Feyd-Rautha, here I come!
Goody
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I don't remember how many times I have read the Dune series. Probably even more than the Ender ones, or Ph. K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"...
As for my brother, Dune is his Bible. If he were a writer instead of a painter, I'd trust him to write a Dune sequel/prequel.
mph, I guess this is your first time reading Heretics and Chapterhouse ? In that case, don't worry, they are excellent books. While God Emperor is probably the best of the series, Heretics and Chapterhouse give you a very insightfull perspective from the Bene Gesserit point of view. It's very interesting to see them other than 'black witches' !
As for a question you asked earlier in this thread, yes, sometimes Frank Herbert liked to be veeery profound ! But I liked that. And I re-read the books partly because I wanted to understand more of what he was saying. And I did ! At least I think so...
About the prequels: I've read only the Butlerian Jihad and, while the action can be interesting sometimes, the quality of the writing is way below my expectations. Maybe I'm subconsciously comparing it to the other Dune books, but I don't think so. I just think it's poorly written. One can only hope that by the time they get to Dune 7, they will be more experienced... (I soooo don't want this to become another Star Wars fiasco...)
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
I admit it. It is! (Dune, I mean). Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I'm listening to it on tape. So far I'm about a fourth of the way through (although the first tape was buggy and I missed that. I just called a tape buggy. Damn I'm a youngster)
The plot is fairly interesting so far, but the writing is really... irritating. I can't use any other words than that. I don't really want to hear about every single detail and thought and thing these people do. Maybe it's just that it's reading out loud. If I was reading it myself, I think my eyes might gloss over the boring parts. :/ (shrug)
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Ryuko is suffering from non-manga adaptation.
(Hey, Ryuko...you know I'm just kidding, right? I mean...RIGHT? )
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yeah, this is my first time through Heretics.
I have read Dune 4 times now. Each time I like it more, and each time I get further in the series.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
No. Kidding? What is that. I now hate you, Edu_Sauron. Hate you forever.
(also, you'd be surprised what they've adapted into manga... O_o)
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Please, enlighten me. What they've adapted into manga?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
) that had a male narrator instead of Virginia Madsen (in her role as Princess Irulan). Sting as Feyd-Rautha..... yummy ![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
), I was finally advised that mine is a miniseries version that because of the extended format allowed them to put some things back in for the broadcast version.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)