If anyone can get me information on psychological and emotional damge caused by rape and treatment thereof, it would be most appreciated. Also any material that might help a person help someone who's been raped or sexually assaulted.
Thanks.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Just to clarify, given a couple IMs just now: No. It's not me. I need to help another person and I need to know emotional warning signs before any psychological damage becomes drastic. If you can also find anything on helping people deal with sexual assualt, that would be good too.
This evening I had a load dropped on my shoulders and I don't know how to help. So please . . .
[ June 03, 2004, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Anthro ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Anthro,
check out your local whitepages. There are probably several rape/crises places listed. If none, call the local ER and they can direct you. I'm glad that you're trying to be there for someone who needs you.
space opera
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Opera is right. There'll be listing for rape crisis call centers and if you call 'em, they would be a great help to you and your friend right now.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Right, see, the problem is, she doesn't want to tell anyone. Not for a week, until her parents are home. And I don't know how to be sure she's all right and I'm leaving for two weeks on Friday and I don't know what to do. I'm worried about her and normally when she's doing badly she IMs me and we talk but now I won't be here when she's really having trouble.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Crisis center calls are anonymous and confidential. Would she consider that?
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Well, she needs to be comfortable, but my fear is that once a week passes and her parents are home she'll be even less reluctant to talk. Would she feel more comfortable if you took her to a crisis center? Also, it's possible that she needs medical attention.
space opera
Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
If it is not asking too much, how old is the victime?
I used to be a foster parent for sexually abused children and attended many classes and seminars. Rape is handled differently internally by people of different ages and maturity levels.
Most rape crisis centers are good for women and high school aged girls. If, however, you are talking about a junior high girl or a younger child, these places can do more harm than good. In these cases, Child Welfare and Child social services might be a better place.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Just fourteen. I discussed legal implications with another friend and it probably qualifies more as sexual assault or date rape. Possibly just statutory rape, given different systems and that he's seventeen.
I just can't believe it. I know the guy, from my drama class, and he's a nice guy. He's always nice to people. So I'm having trouble grasping the idea of this happening.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
...it's still rape.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Underage sex crimes sound like they're out of your league, sorry. I would have her talk to the school counselor or another trusted + trained adult.
Since you're friends with the guy, why don't you work on getting his side of the story?
Posted by Jill (Member # 3376) on :
She NEEDS to be checked for STDs and pregnancy immediately. She needs to act NOW, if only to ensure that she doesn't pregnant or sick. Also, the longer she waits to tell somebody, the less chance she'll have at being able to charge him. If she goes before the bruises have healed (or, though it's probably too late for that, for the semen to be washed out), there'll be more evidence against him.
[ June 03, 2004, 04:08 AM: Message edited by: Jill ]
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
I agree with asking his side of the story if you know him...I actually would emphasize the importance of that especially if this seems to be something incredibly out of character for him...
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
[This post and ALL of Fallow's posts in this thread have been deleted for reasons that should be obvious to anyone who has read them. People, if you want to get banned from Hatrack, these are the kinds of posts you should write.]
[ June 03, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Epictetus (Member # 6235) on :
I've got to agree with Jill, it's vital that she act soon to prevent pregnancy and STDs. And as far as seeking help for her mental state, waiting is not going to make recovering from the rape any easier.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Fallow, Wrong place, wrong time. just because you wouldn't look for help here doesn't mean that no one else has the right to do so.
I would call her parents, or have her do so RIGHT AWAY! Don't you think they would want to know about this. If anything qualifies as a family emergency this would, and if they find out you knew and didn't contact them, or the police, then you could be in trouble too, given her age.
Let a responsible adult take the responsibility for getting her professional help, and legal help as well. This isn't something to be ignored, or deferred until next week. She might need, depending on what happened, to have a morning after pill to prevent pregnancy; providing that is something she and her family would consider...once again something that you can't decide for her, as you aren't family.
Kwea
[ June 03, 2004, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
And you are an insiped little person, who has no idea why this topic is so painful for me.
I've had it happen to people very close to me, and it took YEARS for them to recover, in part because they didn't tell anyone for too long. Go play your mind games somewhere else tonight.
Kwea
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
This is difficult for me...I'm trying to find the correct words (at way too early in the morning, and with not enough coffee in my gullet). Please bear with.
You can know a person who rapes, and that person can seem 'perfectly nice'. This does not mean that the person has not raped. Date rape is especially tricky.
I have faith in your compassion for your friend, and your overall smartness as a person, but this is really for a professional (especially considering her age). Please consider asking (anonymously, if you like) a professional for advice.
Um, yes, it happened to me. And the kid was 'perfectly nice'. And I even doubted whether or not it was rape (as I said, date rape is tricky). She's going to need professional help. I wish *I* had gotten some.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Thanks.
It's been a week or more already since it happened. She just told me. I managed to get in contact with her briefly again and I told her I'm going to give her a day to tell her parents herself. If she doesn't by this evening, then I will. I'm calling a rape crisis center over here and going totalk to them for advice also.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
A rape crisis center will always be happy to talk to a friend of a rape victim. It's the best place to start for advice, and can be done without betraying a friend's confidence since it stays anonymous.
You're doing a good thing here. One thing - I wouldn't confront the friend about it. You don't want to give him time to prepare anything. The first reaction when confronted with an accusation is a valuable investigative tool.
Dagonee
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
What I'm worried about now is what can be done in the next day. Tomorrow I leave and this will all be out of my hands. I'm calling the rape crisis center and giving her time to tell her folks.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I want to second Dag's recommendation that you not confront the friend about it. I really don't think that's a good idea.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
i'm going to third what dag and ela said. do NOT confront the boy about it. do not let him know that she told someone. dag is right, his reaction can be valuable - it should be someone much bigger and in more authority than you.
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
maybe it is best that you do not confront him yourself, but at least have them both talk to the same school counsellor on their own and get both sides of the story that way then...I've seen a situation similar to this and if he had not been given a chance to be heard he very likely would have killed himself from grief at what he did...
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
(Hey, my post got deleted, too!)
Oh, and Anthro - you're very cool for seeking resources to help your friend out. I hope she's able to use them to heal.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
Too bad you are leaving, you sound may not be to capable when it comes to this but it sounds like you're doing a better job than most. With most kids 14 is very young, and that complicates things very severely in a number of ways, one of which was outlined by Jalapenoman's post: kids+shrinks= dangerous. If her parents are not the overbearing type and are open-minded and understanding, they're probably much more able to deal with this than you in all ways save one: the other side of the story. I agree with Reiko, there may be one. Therefore you should attempt to uncover it, aggressively. I find the idea that you should not "break cover" deplorable. If you're willing to take the "completely and utterly and totally guilty until proven innocent beyond any doubt"(which is what you'd be doing, because whatever the girl says first, regardless of whether she wants alter it later, will probably be held as undeniable fact) then the best course by far is vigilante justice, for which it is never to late, and always works, and doesn't involve "the hanging then the trial". It's also a little risky but far more honest. If at all possible you should present the most complete story possible when addressing the girl's parents for the first time.
Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
Most parents seem to be able to cope with even terrible news when it comes to their kids, and find a way to help the healing. I pray your friend's parents are that sort. If they are, they will be in the best position to help your friend make whatever decision she needs to make, go to authorities, talk to the young man, whatever.
Sounds hokey, but I wish I'd had the courage to talk to my mom when in a similar situation. It took me twenty years to tell her about it, and I spent way too long thinking I'd done something wrong. I applaud how you're handling this, and the suppoort you're giving your friend.
L
Posted by Ninja Squirrel (Member # 6508) on :
I've never had anything like that happen to me personally, but it has happened to one of my friends. She needs support now, not later; if there is any way you can possibly postpone your trip on Friday, do it. You need to encourage her to talk to a counselor about it, too, and maybe even get her to call her parents. I agree with what others have said, to NOT talk to the guy. Dagonee is right about it being a powerful investigative tool.
The girl needs to be encouraged to speak out, and assured that people won't be disgusted by her. It sounds strange I know, but often a girl will blame herself for a date-rape, and feel like its somehow her fault.
Is there any way you can get her to contact her parents? I would not recommend that you do anything without persuading her to agree first; if you just call the parents/counselor yourself and tell them it may make the situation worse. But encourage her to take initiative herself.
As soon as possible too, so that she can press charges against the b@$+@^d who did it to her.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Therefore you should attempt to uncover it, aggressively.
This is not Anthro's job - s/he (not sure, sorry) is trying to help a friend through a rough time. It's not a question of guilt or innocence. This girl says she's been raped. Assuming she's not lying, then she thinks she's been raped whether she actually was or not and is suffering all the associated trauma. The purpose of a rape crisis center is not to punish the guilty; it's to help the victim face the physical and psychological consequences of rape, and to help preserve the victim's options to prosecute if she so desires. Anthro has been thrust into this role and is taking action to pass it on to someone more capable - a commendable decision, I think.
As difficult and specialized as the rape counsellor's job is, a well-meaning friend can cause even more damage to the police or prosecutor's investigation. Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent, will not help the victim if he is guilty, and will create a potentially dangerous situation besides.
Anthro does not need to form an opinion of guilt or innocence to help the victim.
Dagonee Edit: The decision to press charges must be the victim's. She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges. Frankly, with no physical evidence, they'd have a hard time convicting him of anything except statutory rape unless they get a confession. The burden of proof is on his side, not hers.
[ June 03, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I'd like to offer an apology to posters in this thread for my apparent utter lack of understanding of it's nature.
fallow
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
If I could clone Dagonee, I would. Unfortunately, a simple "what he said" must suffice.
Worth particular highlighting:
quote: Anthro has been thrust into this role and is taking action to pass it on to someone more capable - a commendable decision, I think.
As difficult and specialized as the rape counsellor's job is, a well-meaning friend can cause even more damage to the police or prosecutor's investigation.
Anthro does not need to form an opinion of guilt or innocence to help the victim.
The decision to press charges must be the victims. She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges.
(Spot on, Dag. Spot on throughout.)
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
quote:The decision to press charges must be the victims.
I disagree. The issue of having a rapist in the community (or alternatively, clearing someone's good name) is bigger than the emotions of one peron. There's some merit to the victim's having say in the prosecution of minor crimes, but there's a reason we have independent DAs.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
I've gotten her to call a rape crisis center. I can't get in contact with her now--her phone number is unlisted and she's not online. I know she has a therapist and she has a session soon, so I hope she'll get something from that.
She doesn't want to do anything unless she's pregnant.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Here's hoping.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent" Dagonee, that is incorrect because it assumes he is totally innocent and so has no mistake to realize and that the justice sytem is perfect, and both are pretty obviously false assumptions. Ah well, probably too late now. Dangit I'm really sorry my last post was out of wack. Didn't mean to help this turn into an argument. Certainly wasn't advocating against contacting the rape crisis center or trying to imply the important issue is one of guilt or innocence, it's not. Obviously the primary concern is your friend, and telling her parents soon is very high priority. It would be better, if possible, though, if you could give them the most accurate possible version of reality, and since you are leaving I'm assuming that you don't have time to do much else. Again, that's really too bad, you sound like good support, and there's plenty of ideas what you could do to help her if you stuck around. You should be able to trust the parents to do what's good for their kid, but if you're going to take the job of telling them for her, then it's better that they get a less biased idea so they don't go off half cocked. It's all very well and good to say that "the decision to press charges must be the victim's", but it will ultimately be the parents'. Also, the parents will be far better off in the pursuit of helping their daughter if they have a closer-to-correct view of what happened. In my opinion you have not said enough the incident for people to be making the judgements that they are. And people on an anonymous internet forum assuming dilemmas of subjects like this, well Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
i don't see how a young woman going and asking the guy what happend is any more efficient than the parents pursuing the truth. your argument is totally incoherent.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I think it would be safer for the parents, or better yet the cops, to ask the questions. We're talking about a guy who allegedly raped a 14 year old. If he'd do that, it's entirely possible he could hurt Anthro for getting involved.
Cops on the other hand carry mace, small clubs, and guns. If the guy freaks out over the questions, the cops are trained to protect themselves and the community at large.
Anthro, the only thing I would ask of you is this. When you talk to your friend again, remind her that if she says nothing, she is leaving every other girl this boy knows in danger of him doing the same thing to them. Even if she doesn't want to speak out for herself, she may want to speak out to stop him from hurting anyone else this way.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Point taken, Berg.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: The issue of having a rapist in the community (or alternatively, clearing someone's good name) is bigger than the emotions of one peron. There's some merit to the victim's having say in the prosecution of minor crimes, but there's a reason we have independent DAs.
In one sense I agree with you – I think it is the responsibility of crime victims to society to assist in prosecution of criminals to get them off the street. However, this duty is not absolute and must take several factors into account:
1) The harm this will cause the victim. 2) Whether or not the victim is psychologically capable of testifying. If she proceeds with pressing charges and is ultimately unable to get on the stand and describe what happened, a lot of unnecessary emotional trauma has occurred and a lot of time and money has been wasted. 3) The chance of getting a conviction. Frankly, a one-on-one accusation where the accused says the sex was consensual, with no physical evidence, almost always has reasonable doubt. The defense attorney’s job will be to get the jury to doubt the victim’s story that she didn’t want to have sex. This will be accomplished with innuendo (“Why did you go up to his hotel room at 1:00 AM in the morning if it wasn’t to have sex?”). If the accused is found innocent, which happens even if the jury tends to believe her, there is an assumption at large that she was lying.
One of the immediate effects of rape is a loss of a sense of control by the victim. It is important that she be allowed to evaluate these factors and make her own decision. Someone advocating for prosecution should point out the benefits (to society and the victim) of pressing charges, but also point out the potential costs.
A prosecutor, in preparing the victim for trial, will have to be harsh with the victim at some point and ask the hard questions she will face on the stand. This will be her advocate essentially accusing her of asking for it. It’s necessary, but very traumatic. She must be the one who makes the decision and fully invested in the process for the prosecutor to have a hope of winning the case.
quote: "Approaching the accused will hurt the accused if he is innocent" Dagonee, that is incorrect because it assumes he is totally innocent and so has no mistake to realize and that the justice sytem is perfect, and both are pretty obviously false assumptions. Ah well, probably too late now.
I’m almost at a loss as to how to respond here. Thinking as a defense attorney, I want my client to have said as little as possible about this event. Anything he says either doesn’t help the case or can be twisted to hurt it. It is the imperfection of the justice system and the potentially gray nature of the event that make this dangerous for the accused.
And I’m not really interested in looking out for the accused here – this statement was meant to counter the facially compelling argument that fairness demands Anthro hear his side of the story. This argument has a compelling appeal – who wants to believe their friend could commit rape? The legal system is not always compatible with our inherent sense of fairness. It is geared so that all the fairness is related to how 12 particular people view and judge the event. The chance for the defendant to tell his side of the story is during trial, not before. The reason I added the line about hurting the accused if he’s innocent was to provide a rational reason for not doing something that we learn from childhood on, getting both sides of the story, is “fair.”
quote:Dangit I'm really sorry my last post was out of wack. Didn't mean to help this turn into an argument. Certainly wasn't advocating against contacting the rape crisis center or trying to imply the important issue is one of guilt or innocence, it's not. Obviously the primary concern is your friend, and telling her parents soon is very high priority. It would be better, if possible, though, if you could give them the most accurate possible version of reality, and since you are leaving I'm assuming that you don't have time to do much else.
No. Anthro is not equipped to provide an accurate version of reality. She is not a trained counselor or investigator, nor was she there when it happened. (This is not a knock on Anthro at all.)
quote:Again, that's really too bad, you sound like good support, and there's plenty of ideas what you could do to help her if you stuck around. You should be able to trust the parents to do what's good for their kid, but if you're going to take the job of telling them for her, then it's better that they get a less biased idea so they don't go off half cocked.
Getting the accused’s version doesn’t make their ideas less biased, it means there are two versions of an even seen from two totally different perspectives. Assume for a minute that the accused genuinely thinks she consented. Obviously, the victim and he have absolutely opposite views on what happened. The truth may be somewhere between, but it may be on one side or the other. Throw in the possibility that the accused will lie, and Anthro is in no position to provide a “less biased” idea.
quote:It's all very well and good to say that "the decision to press charges must be the victim's", but it will ultimately be the parents'. Also, the parents will be far better off in the pursuit of helping their daughter if they have a closer-to-correct view of what happened.
Again, nothing in Anthro’s power can give them this closer to correct view.
quote:In my opinion you have not said enough the incident for people to be making the judgements that they are. And people on an anonymous internet forum assuming dilemmas of subjects like this, well
This is why all the advice was basically “get her to see someone TRAINED in this issue so someone with the proper expertise can gain first hand knowledge and figure out how best to proceed with the victim.” Ironically, it’s the lack of details that make your advice so dangerous. Was the rape accomplished through threat of physical violence? Through drugs or alcohol? Through sheer physical coercion? Each of these creates a different threat profile. Here’s what we do know: someone has accused this person of rape. That would be enough to make me tell my sisters to stay away until more is known.
There’s nothing that can be added to this story that makes me think it’s a good idea for an untrained private citizen to confront an accused rapist in order to figure out what really happened.
Dagonee
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Since this girl is a minor, is it not her parents' decision whether to prosecute or not? Or is fourteen an age where she can make this choice?
I wish her courage to get through this as a whole, unbroken person. I wish her peace and joy in her life.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Let me clarify my thinking about Berg's post a little.
I believe that it is best that a rape victim press charges, both for the victim and to help keep a rapist from preying on others.
However, if the decision is not fully the victim's, she will not be able to fully assist the prosecutor. This is a practical matter. If the witness is reluctant and obviously has not chosen to be there, the jury will not believe her.
I should have been more clear when I said, "She has suffered the ultimate loss of control and does not need people telling her she must press charges." A counselor and prosecutor should provide information. Part of that information is the benefits to the victim and society of pressing charges, and what that decision will mean for the victim. After receiving this information, the victim must be the one to decide.
In other words, she needs to hear, “Here’s what happens if you choose to press charges. Here’s how it will help you psychologically. It will also help keep a rapist off the streets.”
Then she should decide for herself.
Dagonee
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Since this girl is a minor, is it not her parents' decision whether to prosecute or not? Or is fourteen an age where she can make this choice?
The practical matter is that if she wishes to not press charges, the prosecutor probably will not no matter what her parents say. The prosecutor's entire case will be her testimony. There's no effective way to coerce it in such a way that it will be believed.
Of course, the parents will likely have a lot of say in her decision. But if she refuses, there's no real way the prosecutor can proceed.
And if she decides to press charges and her parents don't want her to, the prosecutor may proceed any way.
Dagonee
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Thank you!
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I had not checked this thread for a few days for personal reasons, both because of the painful memories that it reminded me of, and because of some of the things that were said in it earlier.
As I was catching up reading these posts I fought back the urge to post replies to several points made, but by the time I got to the end I found that my replies would have been duplicating Dag's posts, and completely unnecessary.
I think Dag hit it right on the head as well. Perhaps most importantly he mentioned the possible danger to Anthro; not that I am sure there would be any danger, but just in case he/she shouldn't risk himself/herself just to confront the accused. He has neither the training nor the responsibility to do so. His main focus should be on his friend, helping her to get through this terrible time.
I know from personal experience that as a friend of someone who has experienced this type of event it often feels as if you aren't doing all you can to support them, and you feel powerless. Keep in mind that the single most important thing you can do for her is to treat her the with the same respect that you have always shown her, and let her know how much you care.
BTW, when I was in the service, I was accused of making an aggressive pass at a friends wife while at a party. I was drunk, and I did remember having an argument with her and her crying, but I didn't remember much else. There were marks on her body, including teeth marks, and I was devastated with the thought that I might have done this, so upset that my commander had a watch put on me.
I came to the conclusion that I could not have done this, drunk or not, so I went to the police myself, and gave a dental impression. Turns out that the impressions didn't match; they weren't even close. I have a chipped front tooth, so it was very easy to see that it wasn't my marks that were on her arm.
A friend of hers came clean after hearing what she had accused me of doing. Turns out she was still sleeping with her ex,and they liked it rough. He left too many marks to hide, and I had caught them together, so she accused me to deflect blame from herself.
So as you see, I have been involved in both sides of this type of thing. I have been falsely accused, and only my own belief in my character saved me. That, and a chipped front tooth...
Kwea
[ June 04, 2004, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: He also expressed sympathy for two other celebrities facing high-profile criminal cases at the moment -- pop singer Michael Jackson and basketball star Kobe Bryant -- saying he considers both innocent until proven guilty.
I can't find a link now, but on the radio this morning when they were talking about this Simpson interview -- Simpson said at one point (about Kobe Bryant) "sometimes when a girl says no, she doesn't really mean no."
I would like to have hit him with a 2x4 when I heard that!
FG
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Well, you know, those two-letter words are just too complicated for a li'l ol' girl to understand.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
I don't disagree with any of your reply, Dagonee. I just want to be on the record as opposing the notion that we are obligated to have negative expectations of victims. In guise of help, to passively reinforce powerlessness in both behavior and emotion. If we all accept the attitude that "there's nothing you can do, just resign yourself to a lifetime of bitter counseling," then the terrorists win (and I mean that).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I totally agree with you.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"And I’m not really interested in looking out for the accused here"
You really didn't need to tell me that, I think I've figured that out by myself.
"The legal system is not always compatible with our inherent sense of fairness"
No? What about our inherent since of justice? I beg to differ. Principles of democracy hold that the "inherent sense" of the people is in fact what should determine the legal system, through and through. For legal reference see The United States Constitution
"No. Anthro is not equipped to provide an accurate version of reality."
Ungulate excrement. Anthro has a brain.
"She is not a trained counselor or investigator, nor was she there when it happened."
Don't even think about getting me to start starting. Anyway I did not mean to imply Anthro should neccessarily act herself, a trusted representative who knows the subject would work as well, or maybe even, as Reiko suggested, a school couselor- anybody capable of gleaning information whose doesn't have the specific job of finding incriminating evidence.
Dagonee, no more arguments. Keep on as you have and you will cause me to say something I may regret. Protcol is never a substitute for common sense. I respect you and your views(and I'm not just saying that, I otherwise would have chewed you out long ago), they simply do not apply to the general case, and even less to this specific one, as nearly as I can tell.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Dagonee, no more arguments. Keep on as you have and you will cause me to say something I may regret."
This really sounds quite threatening. Dagonee was stating his opinion, no more, no less, and he was doing so in a respectful manner. Your reaction to his opinion is extreme.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:"And I’m not really interested in looking out for the accused here"
You really didn't need to tell me that, I think I've figured that out by myself.
You’ve conveniently ignored the fact that I listed good and valuable reasons why IT’s BETTER FOR THE ACCUSED if no one approaches him on an amateur basis.
quote:"The legal system is not always compatible with our inherent sense of fairness
No? What about our inherent since of justice? I beg to differ. Principles of democracy hold that the "inherent sense" of the people is in fact what should determine the legal system, through and through. For legal reference see The United States Constitution
You’ve also left off the rest of the paragraph that explains, in detail, how our traditional and instinctive sense that we should give someone a chance to explain their side of the story is not necessarily the best way to proceed when the criminal justice system is involved. The protections for criminals are active when the criminal investigation and adjudication processes are invoked. He is better protected by having the police involved than by having someone else conduct the investigation.
As to your constitutional argument, it’s frankly ludicrous. The inherent sense of the people is specifically overridden by most of the provisions aimed at protecting criminal defendants. That’s why the congressional law overturning Miranda (the expression of the inherent sense of the people) was itself overturned by the Supreme Court. The protections in the Constitution are there precisely so they can’t be overturned by the will of the people, unless that will is expressed in a very cumbersome and difficult amendment process.
As for the inherent sense of justice, that is only helped by having someone with the proper training confront the accused. Justice does not involve private citizens performing their own investigation into alleged crimes committed against third parties.
quote:"No. Anthro is not equipped to provide an accurate version of reality."
Ungulate excrement. Anthro has a brain.
But as far as I know, she is not psychic. She WASN’T THERE. Probably neither person present can provide a totally accurate version of the events. More than common sense or a brain is needed in this situation – particular training is as well.
quote:"She is not a trained counselor or investigator, nor was she there when it happened."
Don't even think about getting me to start starting. Anyway I did not mean to imply Anthro should neccessarily act herself, a trusted representative who knows the subject would work as well, or maybe even, as Reiko suggested, a school couselor- anybody capable of gleaning information whose doesn't have the specific job of finding incriminating evidence.
I don’t even know what the first sentence means. As for the rest of your suggestion, if you do that you’ve almost certainly doomed any chance of criminal prosecution that may exist. Apparently, the suggestion that Anthro provide continued support to her friend, provide guidance on how to obtain expert assistance, and leave difficult jobs to those people with the expertise isn’t good enough for you.
quote: Dagonee, no more arguments. Keep on as you have and you will cause me to say something I may regret. Protcol is never a substitute for common sense. I respect you and your views(and I'm not just saying that, I otherwise would have chewed you out long ago), they simply do not apply to the general case, and even less to this specific one, as nearly as I can tell.
“No more arguments”? You get to spew potentially dangerous and certainly counter-productive advice and I have to remain silent about it?
What the hell does “Protocol is never a substitute for common sense” mean. My suggestion not to confront the accuser was made because someone suggested Anthro get his side of the story. I suggested she not do so and gave reasons. Common sense dictates that the more difficult a situation is, the more it should be left up to experts. How many situations, besides being the rape victim, are more difficult than being told by one friend that another friend raped her?
In the general case, my advice (and most of the advice given in this thread) is dead on. In this specific case, there are no details to distinguish it from the general case. You yourself said we were lacking enough information to know how to deal with this problem. (“In my opinion you have not said enough the incident for people to be making the judgements that they are.”)
So why is advice to get experts involved who will elicit the necessary information bad? If we lack information to make judgments, why are you advocating Anthro take action?
Dagonee
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sometime's Dags posts really bug me. Sometimes I love them and sometimes I really look forward to them. Like this one.
Dags, are you secretly my hero?
And, if I were to make a CoH character named Dagonee, what super powers would he have? Would he blast people with his fiery passion and logic? Control people's minds with his careful rhetoric? Hit people with the giant axe that he somehow stores in his undershirt?
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Antrhro, I'm glad to hear you have been helping this young girl. I hope to hear un update when you get back.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
The police helped me. I was honest with them, and said I didn't remember the whole night well, and at first they were very skeptical, but the physical evidence cleared me.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, suntranfs, and Anthro has neither the obligation to pursue the truth by himself, or the training to do it properly. Not only could it be dangerous, but he could cause more harm than good, both to his friend who feels victimized and to the case of the accused by altering his reactions once the police question him.
[ June 04, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
quote: I think it would be safer for the parents, or better yet the cops, to ask the questions. We're talking about a guy who allegedly raped a 14 year old. If he'd do that, it's entirely possible he could hurt Anthro for getting involved.
Cops on the other hand carry mace, small clubs, and guns. If the guy freaks out over the questions, the cops are trained to protect themselves and the community at large.
Anthro, the only thing I would ask of you is this. When you talk to your friend again, remind her that if she says nothing, she is leaving every other girl this boy knows in danger of him doing the same thing to them. Even if she doesn't want to speak out for herself, she may want to speak out to stop him from hurting anyone else this way.
okay...especially in reference to the second paragraph, the one about how it would be better that the police interrogate him as they carry arms...there are more ways to freak out than violently, for all we know he could have a nervous breakdown and be destroyed worse than any damage that has been inflicted on this girl...personally I would think it would be much easier and less intimidating for them to speak to a counsellor first, and then, if she decides to press charges then all the power to her...but if she decides not to in the end, there is a chance that the damage will already have been done on both ends...
I am not saying that he is innocent of all wrong doing, only that there is a chance that he will never do it again... also I am not saying that she should do nothing
if what I have said sounds offensive or I am wrong, please accept my appologies...
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote: Sometime's Dags posts really bug me. Sometimes I love them and sometimes I really look forward to them. Like this one.
Did this one do all three at once?
quote:Dags, are you secretly my hero?
Well, not any more, blabbermouth.
quote: Antrhro, I'm glad to hear you have been helping this young girl. I hope to hear un update when you get back.
Yes, let’s not lose site of this. Anthro, you’re doing a good thing. You’ve made an immeasurable difference in this girl’s life, no matter how it turns out.
quote:The police helped me. I was honest with them, and said I didn't remember the whole night well, and at first they were very skeptical, but the physical evidence cleared me.
This is the flip side – lots of people are cleared by the police every day.
quote: okay...especially in reference to the second paragraph, the one about how it would be better that the police interrogate him as they carry arms...there are more ways to freak out than violently, for all we know he could have a nervous breakdown and be destroyed worse than any damage that has been inflicted on this girl...
Barring police brutality, this is an extremely unlikely scenario. I don’t think the physical danger is the key issue here, although it can’t be ignored. Anthro could pretty easily set up a situation where the physical danger is small.
The issues are giving the accused a chance to prepare his version of the story and the fact that it is hard to testify about a conversation with someone. Police are much better at this than most, even counselors. As I said before, they’re often able to get a good read from the moment of first accusation. Finally, the accused does not want to give multiple statements about this, especially if he is innocent. Innocent people often behave and speak in ways that make the average person (read, juror) think they are guilty. For one, they’re less likely to have prepared a story, and so more likely to have minor inconsistencies that look devastating on the stand.
However, having ANY trained person do the confrontation is far better than Anthro doing it. This decision shouldn’t be Anthro’s at all – it should be the victim’s, based on advice from the rape crisis counselor.
quote:I am not saying that he is innocent of all wrong doing, only that there is a chance that he will never do it again...
Once is enough. I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply otherwise. And any harm caused by a police investigation is negligible compared to the harm suffered by the victim.
Dagonee
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
Yeah, Reiko, better apologize, you sure do have to be careful about offering a dissenting opinion around here. Even if you are dead on right, as I have more faith in your views on this than my own, and might as well have been plagarising, you can still get slammed with rhetorical crap all day long.
quote: “No more arguments”? You get to spew potentially dangerous and certainly counter-productive advice and I have to remain silent about it?
If that's the way you want to take it, go ahead, but last time I checked I didn't have the power to force you to remain silent. Wow, Dag, I knew you were strong in your convictions, but I didn't know you thought you were God. As far as every last thing I have said on this thread goes, well intentioned generally cautious and polite though it was, it is apparently in fact I, not you, that has no right to say what I believe to be true if it happens to be in disagreement with what you have said. Since you are God, and therefore You are definitely totally right and I am definitely totally wrong and am somehow on the side of someone who is very likely a rapist, and totally ignoring the real issue of helping a hurt little girl, or so say your accusations, then I guess I really don't have a right to talk. I just kinda figured that since the responsibility was in the hands of the thread originator, that I would give my advice along with others directly to her and that she could pick and choose as she saw fit. I didn't count on the fact that you would seek an argument with me when I actively tried to discourage it, but I guess if you're sure you're absolutely and totally right and someone else is absolutely and totally wrong about a subject of great import, then the only option is to just drive him and his argument into the ground,-so what if you have to accuse him of taking a position he's not and then, when he tries to respond without getting offended because he thinks he should try to be extra respectful and cautious on this subject, you accuse him again of the same things, and so you trash him publicly because he does not wish to deny directly what you are saying on his own behalf- oh well, I suppose it's fair enough, you get your completely correct point accross unchallenged, and evidently that's the important part, that it's unchallenged? I mean for somebody to challenge your views, they would have to be really really really bad. Still I wonder, if God's on an internet forum, offering advice, is it really neccessary for him to quash any other opinions than his, why not just let them be heard without being run into the ground so that everybody can see how much better God's opinions are, hey isn't that what free will is all about? Let's see I didn't say much... just that the kid is top priority and that the truth is neccessary to help the kid, and then, oh oh, this one must have been a pretty serious insult to God, I implied that the person writing for advice should have just a little confidence in herself(God evidently requires faith, not confidence), and then oh oh oh oh the clincher, I implied that maybe nobody posting, including God, was really able to judge the particular situation well enough to say most of what they were saying. That latter bit was surely the final straw, I mean even God can't deal with the suggestion that he might not be God! Not even posted yet and as I predicted, I almost regret it already, but I'm posting it anyway because I'm sick of having the sh*t heaped on me because my ideas on this matter are not perhaps as articulate as they should be, but I did my best and I tried to keep brief and to the point, it's 3:30 in the morning here and I'm going to bed.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
*rubs eyes after trying to read that one huge paragraph*
FG
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If that's the way you want to take it, go ahead, but last time I checked I didn't have the power to force you to remain silent.
You’re the one who ordered me not to respond in a way that contradicted you, not me.
quote:Wow, Dag, I knew you were strong in your convictions, but I didn't know you thought you were God.
So offering opinions and providing arguments as to why a particular piece of advice is bad is the equivalent of playing God. I guess most of the participants in the political threads are God, then.
quote:As far as every last thing I have said on this thread goes, well intentioned generally cautious and polite though it was, it is apparently in fact I, not you, that has no right to say what I believe to be true if it happens to be in disagreement with what you have said.
I have not once attempted to keep you from posting or to silence you. I have offered information and reasons for someone to reject the advice you offered. In doing so, I responded directly to the points raised in support of that advice, something you still have not had the courtesy to do.
quote:Since you are God, and therefore You are definitely totally right and I am definitely totally wrong and am somehow on the side of someone who is very likely a rapist, and totally ignoring the real issue of helping a hurt little girl, or so say your accusations, then I guess I really don't have a right to talk.
Again, who has said you don’t have the right to talk? Who has said you were on the side of a likely rapist? Not me. I have said simply that confronting the accused rapist is a mistake, and provided reasons why it is in the interest of all concerned parties, victim, rapist, and friend, that Anthro not do so.
quote:I just kinda figured that since the responsibility was in the hands of the thread originator, that I would give my advice along with others directly to her and that she could pick and choose as she saw fit.
Same here. My advice happens to contradict yours. Instead of just flatly contradicting your advice, I provided reasons.
quote:I didn't count on the fact that you would seek an argument with me when I actively tried to discourage it, but I guess if you're sure you're absolutely and totally right and someone else is absolutely and totally wrong about a subject of great import, then the only option is to just drive him and his argument into the ground,
I responded to your arguments. You have yet to do so to mine.
quote:-so what if you have to accuse him of taking a position he's not and then,
I’ve accused you of nothing. I have said your advice is incorrect and provided reasons why.
quote:when he tries to respond without getting offended because he thinks he should try to be extra respectful and cautious on this subject, you accuse him again of the same things, and so you trash him publicly because he does not wish to deny directly what you are saying on his own behalf-
Where have I done any of this.
quote:oh well, I suppose it's fair enough, you get your completely correct point accross unchallenged, and evidently that's the important part, that it's unchallenged? I mean for somebody to challenge your views, they would have to be really really really bad. Still I wonder, if God's on an internet forum, offering advice, is it really neccessary for him to quash any other opinions than his, why not just let them be heard without being run into the ground so that everybody can see how much better God's opinions are, hey isn't that what free will is all about?
That’s all I’ve done. I’ve provided reasons for my opinion on this matter. When presented with contrary opinions, I’ve addressed the reasons why I think those contrary opinions are wrong.
quote:Let's see I didn't say much... just that the kid is top priority and that the truth is neccessary to help the kid, and then, oh oh, this one must have been a pretty serious insult to God, I implied that the person writing for advice should have just a little confidence in herself(God evidently requires faith, not confidence), and then oh oh oh oh the clincher, I implied that maybe nobody posting, including God, was really able to judge the particular situation well enough to say most of what they were saying.
No, you said “I agree with Reiko, there may be [another side of the story]. Therefore you should attempt to uncover it, aggressively. I find the idea that you should not "break cover" deplorable.” Aggressive attempt to uncover the other side of the story is what I (and others) have counseled against.
The lack of information speaks to turning this over to the experts, not playing Nancy Drew.
quote:That latter bit was surely the final straw, I mean even God can't deal with the suggestion that he might not be God!
You seem to be the one with a problem with people disagreeing with you. I have been content to post reasons why the independent investigation is a bad idea. You have made this personal in two posts. I certainly don’t think I’m God. I don’t offer advice unless I’m confident in it or qualify to show where my doubts lie. Having given advice, I provide additional reasoning to support it when it has been questioned, or modify my advice in response to the questions.
quote:Not even posted yet and as I predicted, I almost regret it already, but I'm posting it anyway because I'm sick of having the sh*t heaped on me because my ideas on this matter are not perhaps as articulate as they should be, but I did my best and I tried to keep brief and to the point, it's 3:30 in the morning here and I'm going to bed.
You think this is sh*t being heaped on you? Try being told not to disagree and then told you have a God complex for having the nerve to respond to posts on a discussion board.
Dagonee
[ June 04, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
My training addressed not questioning possible victims of sexual abuse ourselves, as we may accidentally ask leading questions or contaminate testimony. Seems that the same goes for suspects as well, that either side, the questioning needs to be done by trained professionals.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
i think everything dag has suggested is wise, but even that which i found questionable i now understand because he backed it up with solid reasoning and facts. i also trust mackillian as this has been an area of study for her.
i don't know why you are taking someone disagreeing with you so personally, suntranafs. i think dagonee's advice is the best route to ensure justice for BOTH the accuser and the accused. and he was thorough in explaining why. perhaps you have some personal beef with this issue, or you just can't handle someone having a difference of opinion, but either way you are out of line.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
There is absolutely nothing wrong with providing care and support. And if your friend divulges anything, that's her choice. Same went with my clients. We just couldn't ask questions about the incident.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
It's the part I'm least comfortable about with lawyering. It would be realtively easy for a good defense attorney to plant the idea that the rape counselor subtly altered the victim's testimony. Careful training is required to avoid such an outcome.
Dagonee
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*hugs Dagonee* AJ
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I don't see why you tried to make this personal, Sun. I reread all the posts, and you seem to be the only one offended, at it seems that you are more offended that everyone doesn't immediately agree with you.
I think that most of us here understand that Anthro wants to do what is right for her friend, but doesn't know what is the best course. We all can empathize, but some of us have been her situation ourselves.
So far a lawyer, a social worker, and a person who has psych training and is a NR-EMT all agree that in their opinions confronting the accuser could cause serious repercussion, and is a matter best left to those who have the training to deal with it, and to whom the duty is intended for.
We don't care if you disagree....at least I don't...but please do it a little more civilly.
You have as much right as we do to post your opinions on the subject, but the odds of changing my mind, or the minds of the others, are severely limited but calling others names and ranting. If you actually care about changing minds, IMO you would be better served by calmly disagreeing with the points listed than by making personal attacks on others who care enough to respond....even if they don't agree with you "aggressive" plan.
Kwea
[ June 04, 2004, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
Well spoken, all but the last nine words. *Hits self on the head for use of word aggressive in that phrase for the 100th time*
"I don't see why you tried to make this personal, Sun. I reread all the posts, and you seem to be the only one offended"
There are two combining reasons for that. Numero uno, nobody else had a number of inflamatory comments sent their way(I can ennumerate if neccessary). Numero Dos, Shoot me I'm sensitive on this matter, and the fact that I DO NOT have case specific experience to back up my case, but am pretty darn sure I'm right, does not help matters.
"We don't care if you disagree....at least I don't...but please do it a little more civilly."
Remind me that next time I'm good and pissed off in the middle of the night. Reluctant conditional apology.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
sun, thanks for the conditional apology. I would like to know which comments you considered inflammatory. Up to my response to the "God" post, I honestly don't see anything even potentially inflammatory except the "frankly ludicrous" comment, and that seems pretty mild in the context of the discussion up to that point.
If I insulted you, I didn't mean to, nor did I realize I was doing so.
Dagonee
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"If I insulted you, I didn't mean to, nor did I realize I was doing so."
I rather suspected that.
"I would like to know which comments you considered inflammatory."
Well, I'm pretty tired and it's pretty late here again, so I'll give you a list but not explanations, OK?
quote: the "frankly ludicrous" comment
quote: “No more arguments”? You get to spew potentially dangerous and certainly counter-productive advice and I have to remain silent about it?
quote: Apparently, the suggestion that Anthro provide continued support to her friend, provide guidance on how to obtain expert assistance, and leave difficult jobs to those people with the expertise isn’t good enough for you
quote: You’ve conveniently ignored the fact that I listed good and valuable reasons why IT’s BETTER FOR THE ACCUSED if no one approaches him on an amateur basis.
There were also a few minor comments in your posts that made it obvious you were missing a little too much of what I said, and then filling in the gaps a bit excessively. I don't really now think you did that intentionally, but it needled me all the same. This list was compiled at your request, not as further accusations.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Suntrafs, it's all good...I know that you meant nothing but the best for anthro in your original posts. It's a touchy subject, even for those of us who aren't directaly involved with this particular event.
I know what you mean, too...it does seem that getting all sides of the story would seem fair ad reasonable. I just think the risks to all invovled, accused and accuser (and anthro herself), are too great for an untrained person to take.
After it comes out, and there is less to lose, I could see myself being able to listen to both sides, if they were willing to speak to me. We can't know what really happened, as we weren't there, so I believe in keeping a somewhat open mind. Somewhat, because I wouldn't really care what the reasons for doing something like this are..if she feels violated, then something went really wrong somewhere.
And I know what you mean about beating youself up for using the word "aggressivly"...foot in mouth disease runs in my family...
Kwea
[ June 06, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Her ex, the one mentioned in this thread, showed up at school yesterday. He graduated last year, but he came and wanted to talk to her. The administrators kicked him out, but she was pretty down.
They never pressed charges of any kind. As far as I know, she hasn't had any physical problems after this. We looked up state law and the largest possible thing to claim is sexual assault or stat rape, but, well, I dunno.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
At this point, she needs to concentrate on taking care of herself then.
The other possibility that may arise is a future date rape by this guy. Prior bad acts are often admissible against defendants in sex crime cases. It's very likely that, if he raped her, he will do it to someone else. If the next victim is in the same he-said/she-said situation, your friend's testimony may be extremely valuable. I'm not sure I'd mention it to her, but there is a possibility she may be able to act against him in the future if she chooses to, even though her case is probably not pursuable now.
However, if she changed her mind, it's not too late to report it. They may not (even probably won't) prosecute, but it might do some good.
It's also not too late for her to call a rape crisis center. I know they get calls years after some attacks, and they will know where to refer her.
Dagonee
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I went through a similar situation in the past year. I was not around when this thread was started, but as I read it a few things came to mind. 1. School counselors are only a good choice if the person wants it known to both parents and police. The person will have no choice after the councilor knows. I told a teacher and they were obligated to tell the councilor. Once the councilor knows the parents and police have to as well. It was horrible for me. I was not ready to get that out in the open. My control of the situation was taken away. That is one of the worst things you can do to a rape victim. 2. I would recommend just letting them talk, assuring them they are not at fault, and just holding them (if it is possible/appropriate) 3. Do not force a rape victim to do anything they don't want to. You should be gentler in your persuasion. 4. Do encourage them to get help, when they are ready. Do not assume that just because they seem fine they are; bring it up every so often until they do. Edit:This it just from my experience. Everyone is different.
[ September 26, 2004, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Allegra ]
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