Invariably they are people who know each other in real life:
Members of the same family
Co-workers
School buddies
Neighbors
People who have attended one of the various -CONs, Clumps, or Shindas
Their most obnoxious behaviors:
Spinning fluff in the middle of a serious thread.
Taking a thread discussion to private chat or e-mail.
What can be done about it?
Nothing; it’s a fact of life here at Hatrack. Attend a CON if you dare, but be prepared to have your butt kicked by a chick wearing army boots or thigh-high sexy boots.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I say we kill them.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
Are you saying that you are against having your butt kicked by a chick wearing army boots or thigh-high sexy boots?
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Army boots would be a welcome change.
Taupe pumps don't do much for me anymore.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Heaven forbid people to bond.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
There's a rule against that in the bible too?
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
BtL, actually raventh1 was reading an incorrect translation. As anyone who has read the original aramaic would clearly know, the verse quoted by raventh1 is actually "Heaven forbid people to Bond-O."
And I can't say that I disagree with that sentiment. Bond-O should not be mixed with people, it _is_ an abomination.
-Bok
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
what is wrong with people taking conversations to email or a chatroom?
do i have to change clothes in front of you people, too??!!
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Yah... I don't know anyone here on the "outside".... So keep your thoughts where I can see them! Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
*Thinks of Telp in taupe pumps*
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
if you don't take the bait, the trolls can't bite you, kids.
skillery i can't decide on. does he know what a troll he is? are his posts intentionally as loaded as they read? he said in his other thread that he would sit back and watch. i think this would do him a lot of good if he isn't a troll.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Hey, what happened to the comfortable sneakers?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i decided i'm not playing.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:do i have to change clothes in front of you people, too??!!
Yes, yes, you do.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
There's a clique? Where's a clique? Can I be in a clique? Am I already part of a clique? If not, I'm gonna start my own clique. It's gonna be for ummm....thinking....people who think "Spirit" is a movie worth crying through, like lightening bugs, think the only topping worth having on a pizza is cheese, and who have read the book "Bug City." Crap. I'm a clique of one.
space opera
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I am still trying to decide if skillery is being serious, silly, or tongue-in-cheek.
Sometimes your remarks, skillery, come off as either obtuse or clueless, I haven't decided which.
But you DO seem to have a sense of humor about yourself. Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
Uh, I thought you had to have a point, or at least take a more solid stand on something to be taken as "serious, silly or tongue-in-cheek". As it is now, he seems to be making a somewhat vague statement and a very roundabout judgement of this behavior. Maybe I'm missing something, because he appears to have offended a lot of people, but, to me, it doesn't seem to warrant such a reaction.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Hey, I'll join your clique, Space Opera. But I think you should know that I like my pizza Hawaiian or BBQ chicken. Mmmmmmm. *Will make pizza tonight*
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Ok, Bev - we'll do half/half. Just don't let any of your icky stuff touch my cheese!
space opera
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
um... erm.. oh.. right.. pizza
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Uh, I thought you had to have a point, or at least take a more solid stand on something to be taken as "serious, silly or tongue-in-cheek". As it is now, he seems to be making a somewhat vague statement and a very roundabout judgement of this behavior. Maybe I'm missing something, because he appears to have offended a lot of people, but, to me, it doesn't seem to warrant such a reaction.
That's because one of the posts in which he offended some people was deleted, and the other one is posted elsewhere.
I don't know, though. I don't think he is deliberately trying to offend people. I think that he just barrels right into things without thinking through exactly how people are going to react to what he is saying.
[ June 09, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
I used to think that, but now I'm not so sure. This is the second shot at me he's taken this week. I'm not offended by either, but I am a little bothered that he spends so much time on me.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
He's stalking you.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
He loves you, celia.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
maybe he wants celia hot and bothered...
(what if it is Bill lurking?) AJ
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:seem to have a sense of humor about yourself.
Thanks Ela.
Somebody yesterday in my apology thread wanted to get peevish about the supposed existence of cliques here.
I got to thinking about it last night.
Yeah, there are close-knit circles of people here. Call them cliques if you will. So what?
And as someone else implied, the initiation process into some of these groups might be considered fun. Masochistic maybe.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
AJ,should i punish him by cooking?
fine, then i'll work from the assumption that you're just an idiot. hey, idiot, leave me alone. i'm not interested in being friends. i'm not interested in being enemies. just leave me alone.
[ June 09, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: celia60 ]
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
quote: I am still trying to decide if skillery is being serious, silly, or tongue-in-cheek.
I'd say tongue in cheek. Easier to make clique-ing noises that way.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
What she *is* interested in, is me.
Gimme some sugar, baby.
Groovy.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I am part of a one-person clique. *cough*.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
I angered celia at Sakeriver in a discussion about friends, and who can be your friend. And I came off as a sexist pig, trying to communicate that as a married man, I have to be careful in my friendships with women.
Celia joked (I think she was joking) that she would kick my butt if I showed up a KamaCON. I think Kama said as much as well.
Anyway, celia started posting pictures of some of the various hobbies and activities she does, like shooting and sailing, and I recognized that she is really cool. Too bad I pissed her off.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Wait a minute, that was a joke about kicking your butt? Sure fooled me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
stop thinking and talking about her completely, skillery
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
sure, no problem
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
sailing+fencing=pirate!
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Their most obnoxious behaviors:
Spinning fluff in the middle of a serious thread. Taking a thread discussion to private chat or e-mail.
Spinning fluff in the middle of a serious thread can be annoying, at times, but I personally find it a minor irritation. Sometimes it serves to lighten a too serious mood. I don't really think it's the results of any "cliques" though, at least not that I have observed.
Taking a thread discussion to private chat or email is usually done either to avoid generally offending everyone (or a particular person), or because the person doesn't want to discuss it in a public forum. I am sorry it makes you feel left out. A lot of us started chatting or emailing only because we had something further to say that we didn't really want to post in public. It's not generally done to be exclusionary. Sorry if it feels that way to you.
[ June 09, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
skillery I just read your thread on sakeriver, which ticked me off as well. You are a male version of what I most loathe about my mother.
I didn't say those behaviors made me feel any particular way. My point was that their behavior doesn't get any worse than that, which is to say, benign.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
I don't know that we really need to go back to that particular conversation, AJ. By the way, since you went to sakeriver already, why not register? Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Hey BannaOJ:
I posted a couple times to your "every waking moment together thread." I think I came down in favor of having some time to yourself.
Aren't you the lady who gets really creepy letters from her mom? Am I really that bad?
Too bad. Can't kill me. Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
I was hoping for a nice, organized listing of actual Hatrack cliques... I'd kind of like to see exactly where I stand...
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Hi Ela:
I didn't say those behaviors made me feel any particular way. My point was that their behavior doesn't get any worse than that, which is to say, benign.
Okay. Your point is taken. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
What Ela said: I don't think these the behaviors of cliques. Whether or not there are cliques, what you're pointing at ain't them.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Skill short answer:
It has to do with fear of friendship with the opposite gender due to the fact that you are married. Why are you cutting yourself off from friendship with 50% of the population because a few of them are unpredictable?
My mother does not have a single male person she considers to be her friend other than my father. Even if they have been friends with a couple for over 20 years, she is friends with the wife and my father is friends with the husband, regardless of who has what interests.
I have a half dozen guy friends, who I've been friends with for years. Many of them have gotten married. I was invited to several weddings even though I had never met the bride. While I don't talk to them as frequently mostly because of distance, it would be awful for me to stop being friends with them simply because they were married.
The same goes for the other way around. Steve has several female friends that I was never friends with. Does this bother me? not in the least. But having friends of the other gender to me goes part and parcel with having independent hobbies that take you away from each other.
I think limiting yourself to merely half of the world's possible population for friendship is a horribly unhealthy way to live. But maybe avoidance is the way you cope with everything in your life. If you avoid something, you can never actually have a problem because you are never going to be in pain. But you miss out on so much joy too. AJ
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Thanks AJ
I'm just wierd. I went too far in overstating my position in that thread. I do have female friends. An extra measure of care is required in those friendships, and there are personal rules that I apply to keep the friendship within the bounds of propriety. That's all.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I have been thinking about something lately, they say you are a "real hatracker" if you have met another one in real life. So am I real? I know quite a few, but knew them before I became a hatrakcer.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
That counts. You're real if and only if at least two other Hatrackers, having met you in person, can vouch for your existance.
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
I brought up the cliques, and for clarification I should mention that I'm pooka in my "I don't want to post my 4th Landmark while suffering PMS" digs.
I've just been cut down by a lot of folks here lately. A few it was a surprise, several not. But this is probably also due to PMS. I figure PMS was important in prehistoric times so that women who are about to be, well, unclean, feel like getting away from the group for a while.
Space Opera, apart from "Bug City" we are really close.
Skill, I also try to be supportive of you because I felt partly responsible for the first time you fled from Hatrack (the homeschool thread, remember? Ah, memories).
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Saxon, I have sent things to two Hatrackers, and have promised to send things to three more. Does that make me real? Oh, and I still owe Olivia a critique from about a year ago.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Nope. You'll just have to come to KamaCon for it to be official. Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
Pooka, thanks for the support.
Actually I owe you an apology for misleading you. We were joking around in a thread a couple of months ago about Punxsutawney Phil and Groundhog Day, and I must have left you with the impression that I was "fil" or "fileted" or whatever. Sorry. February 2004 is as far back as I go here at Hatrack. But I'm glad to know you anyhow.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I would come to KamaCon, but I have State Fair leadership conference that weekend, which is supposedly a major honor. Sorry. I will have to have fugu, blacwolve, and raia say I am real.
Posted by sarahdipity (Member # 3254) on :
This thread is just evidence that I've been in grad school too long. As soon as I saw it I thought mmm graphs!
You need help.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Elizabeth, I'm sorry, but email, snail mail, video conferencing, and telephone calls do not count. Only real, live, face-to-face contact counts.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Saxon, I feel that that this policy is highly unfair. However, if the Western Mass. get-together happens, I will be real.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
skrika, you can still be in the clique. It's just that without "Bug City" you can't be in the inner clique of the clique. It's a complicated clique with many levels.
space opera
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
What do you mean if?
Oh yea of little faith...
I was about to mention it as a plug when you brought it up, actually.
But then again, I'm already "real",... Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
Saxy, I thought it was only if you met two other REAL Hatrackers? Who had, obviously, already met two other Hatrackers?
If what you said is true, though, I can be real! Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Realness is like a virus. It can only be passed on by someone who had it first.
I'm a carrier. Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
I am completely unreal. Does, having met someone and not known it, count as real? I mean, I probably bumped into one or two of you at an OSC books signing.
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
I'm a troll in a monkey suit, that is really a troll suit full of squirrels. So maybe i'm my own clique? Damn myself!
Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
I'm Real. I met rivka and PapaMoose. And I signed the Hatrack River book. yay, go me!
(if that doesnt make me real, blame them, for feeding me false facts)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*nods vigorously*
Posted by tonguetied&twisted (Member # 5159) on :
In that case, Rivka and Damien, may I meet you? Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
Fine by me. ^_^
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
YESyesYESyesYESyesYES! *bounces*
Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
o_O
Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
OoOoOoOoOoOoOo, bouncy Rivka! Woowoo! Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Please ! I met Corwin, and he's the only Hatracker in France ! It SHOULD count ! Or at last OSC should come in France juste once !
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Saxy, I thought it was only if you met two other REAL Hatrackers? Who had, obviously, already met two other Hatrackers?
If that's the case, then surely no-one can be real...
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
Indeed. As there would be no way for the first REAL Hatracker to come into existence. I think we need to modify the rules...
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
I remember having a discussion like this back in high school. We basically defined it as a group of friends who hang out to the exclusion of everyone else. Those of us with semi-open groups or who traveled between groups didn't mind admitting the groups were there and sometimes unfair to newcomers. The ones in the closed groups were the ones claiming there were no cliques at all.
Just my two cents.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I'm sorry, but no one with a member date above 4000 is allowed to speak directally to us...
So offically you didn't say anything at all...
If you REALLY need to speak, find a liason somewhere around the 3500 level....if they will speak to you. that is....
[ June 10, 2004, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Happy the first "real" hatrackers were made such by OSC, quite simple actually.
AJ
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Slash declared himself real, once. I think that if we start at people he's met and work our way out...I might not be a figment of AJ's overactive imagination.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
but I was enjoying you as a figment!
Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
So then, would meeting OSC and making at least 1 post on Hatrack be an alternative means of becoming REAL? Or has it mutated and now that's no longer a viable method of transmission?
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I guess the other option is to start at EnderCon where most people met for the first time, which included OSC and work out from there.
AJ
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
So, since I met at least 10 Hatrackers before I ever registered here, does that mean I was never imaginary?
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
Skillery isn't fil? I reserve this frowney for special occasions.
It's amazing how finding out that what you thought you knew about someone isn't true really reframes everything they say.
Fie on you, skillery.
fil was a person who coincidentally registered near the same time as filleted (now known as fallow). People mistook them for each other, and he left after folks dragged complaints about fallow into a conversation we were having about home school to question his credentials. It was kind of ugly. As hatrack goes, anyway.
I felt responsible for advancing the notion that they are the same person (because I thought they were the same person) because I conversed with them both a lot because we were all new at the same time. I called them both fil.
I don't suppose this was intentional on your part. I seem to recall you joined hatrack around the time that OSC fan was very active, which is why I "accused" you of being filleted.
Well, anyway. Just goes to show you never really know anyone. No one is real.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't think it is just "meeting" OSC, he has to know who you are as well. I mean he signs gazillions of books, of course he doesn't remember everyone.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I do think the rise of AIM has tended to create more cliques, simply because there is a smaller amount of the important friendship-creating conversations on the board.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
ElJay, logically, yes, you were never imaginary.
AJ
Posted by Zevlag (Member # 1405) on :
I would have to agree with that Kat. But so has the frqequency of shinda's and such.
Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
quote:complaints about fallow
No way! Fallow is my hero. Although I wish he'd post sober once in awhile.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
A personal pet peeve of mine is that sometimes the important stuff doesn't actually get posted on Hatrack. I mean I support all of the side forums that people have, but I tend to be mostly monogamous to Hatrack. I don't have time to check all the others and do some work... even though I think I actually am registered on most of them.(Though not philotic web)
Like for example, I knew from Hatrack Kama was upset the other day but I didn't know why. It wasn't till I went to sakeriver (or was it GreNME) a couple days later that I found out that she broke up with her bf.
But I still would like to meet the Mooses and OSC.
So I still wish I could make it to KamaCon
Farmgirl
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I have to say that I only post the really, really personal stuff on GreNME. That's because fewer go there, it's more tightly moderated, and John carries an Uzi.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
i just don't like posting personal stuff at all. anywhere. heck, i don't even write my own landmarks!
i did sort of let more stuff leak out over on saxy's forum, but i think that's blown up in my face. back to non-entity status please.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
But the REALLY important stuff DOES get posted here, AJ.
[ June 10, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by skrika03 (Member # 5930) on :
I guess it gets back to whether folks bonding excludes others. It would be a pretty boring world.
I do belong to the "AIM is the devil" clique.
I belong to the "not embarassed by their LSAT score" clique. Even if I can't remember what my score actually was.
I profess to be a Daghead, which is a clique of two as far as I know.
I'm on CT's list, though I have no idea what that means.
I play mafia every chance I get, but I'm so bad at it, I'm kind of in the "pathetic, strung out mafia" clique rather than the "loves mafia" clique.
And Bok dedicated a thread to me.
Anyway, I guess I can't let the folks who squish me have more power than the folks that that have tried to build me up. I just get confused with folks do both.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:People mistook them for each other, and he left after folks dragged complaints about fallow into a conversation we were having about home school to question his credentials. It was kind of ugly. As hatrack goes, anyway.
Actually, in that thread, I dragged in complaints I had about fallow not to question fil's credentials, but because I had found them both to be extremely rude, and their identical snarky posting style and similar names confused me into thinking they were both the same person. And I don't know that it was all that ugly. Heck, I even apologized for the misunderstanding, though fil was the one who suggested that people who felt as I did had no business teaching and no real commmittment to the job. And nobody really dogpiled him either.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quote:I have to say that I only post the really, really personal stuff on GreNME. That's because fewer go there, it's more tightly moderated, and John carries an Uzi.
Exactly. Plus, I know the people who post there, so it's ok if they advise me on serious stuff. I wouldn't like such advice from someone I don't even realise exists on Hatrack, no matter how cool they end up to be.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
The rules for being real are as I have stated them. I'm sorry if that inconveniences anyone, but I didn't make them up. You could always appeal to the Lizard King if you'd like to have them changed (here is where he started the whole thing) but these days he's not on Hatrack anymore, so you'd have to come to his new official home in order to make your appeal.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Way to plug sakeriver, saxy. Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
This is a lurker’s perspective. I have always been a lurker, really, even before the Internet gave me places like forums to hone my lurking skills. Playgrounds in elementary school, the cafeteria in middle school – I was the one hanging back, looking longingly at the groups that so easily formed and wondering what the secret handshake must be. I’m shy. Don’t get me wrong; I’m not miserable this way. I’m a grownup. I’m happy in small groups of people. I’m comfortable in my skin. It is just not easy for me to join a new “group”.
This is my own baggage I carry with me to a place like Hatrack. It is just how I am.
But. The community here is harder for someone like me to break into. It sometimes feels like moving to a new school in sixth grade. People don’t push you away, of course. They’re very welcoming. But most of them were in the same kindergarten class together and remember the scary substitute from second grade and the terrible birthday party that Brucie’s mom threw at the truck stop… That’s not a clique, at all, obviously. But it is not easy to be a new sixth grader.
Silly personal and somewhat embarrassing example: when a bunch of hatrackers started playing scrabble at games.com, I thought, “Hey! I’m a scrabble player! Maybe that’s an area of common ground. I’ll pop on over to games.com.” (Unfortunately, I think when a lurker shows up in a context like that, it’s actually a little creepy.) But that’s in retrospect. Anyway, I watched a little scrabble, didn’t say much, and went back to my comfortable lurking role. The point is: I wanted to join in. No, I didn’t lay awake nights thinking about it. It’s “just” a forum. But it’s also a community, a vibrant growing interconnected family, and who WOULDN’T want to be a part of a place like this?
I guess my point – if I actually have one – is that people who speak of cliques may just be standing wistfully on the outside edges thinking what fun it looks like in here. Maybe they’re just wishing they were more a part of things.
P.S. I am real. I was at Boot Camp last year, which means I met ScottR and OSC and the rest of the bootcampers (not sure which of us post here). I may be a lurker, but I exist!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Well Sharpie, for what it's worth, whenever I see a post of yours I think "Oh, cool, Sharpie's back!". Your posts are pretty rare, but I always make a point of reading them.
Celia, I must have missed it when things blew back in your face over at Sakeriver. I'm not sure what happened, but I hope I wasn't a part of it. I'm glad that you showed more of yourself over there though; you're one of those hatrackers that I actually think of as a friend.
I definitely let my hair down more over at Sakeriver than I do here at Hatrack, for much the same reason as kat does at GreNME. Sakeriver is actually the first forum I check each morning (followed by GreNME, followed by Hatrack). I haven't gotten in the habit of visiting Jonboy's forum yet, and the one time I checked out Madowl it looked pretty close to moribund. I keep meaning to check it out again, but I always forget.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Talking about other forums, whatever happened to Tick and gamesmaq?
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Sharpie! Buddy!
Who were you in Boot Camp?
Aw, man! Give it UP!
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
The forum is still there, but I don't think anyone's posted since Kama and I wished the Tick a happy birthday. Haven't seen him in ages, though.
Noem, you're making me blush. Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
madowl is actually fairly active at the moment. Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Hiya, Scott (I'm Marcia McPhee). I can't believe it's been a year already!
And Noemon -- thanks for the kind words. Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:madowl is actually fairly active at the moment.
Yeah, pretty much everywhere is fairly active except sakeriver. ::pout::
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
I tried two e-mail addresses for Tick and got no response from either (though I also didn't get the e-mails bounced, so maybe he just doesn't like me), and I haven't seen him on AIM (probably has me blocked there, too). I miss him.
--Pop
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Sharpie, thanks for your throughts on this. I like your sixth grade analogy, but I'd like to share how I see it.
From my perspective, it's not a bunch of kids who have been together for years and don't know you; it's trying to go back to sixth grade again long after you've gone on to junior high. When I began here, the most prolific posters (to my recollection) were Bob, Ralphie, aretee, David Bowles, Slash, Leto, Strider, Leonide, aka, Eddie(now known as Lalo), Frisco, JaneX, Papa Moose, and Belle. A lot of those people are gone altogether, and a lot of them are still around but they lurk a lot more and post a lot less. So I come back to sixth grade and it's full of all these new kids, who know each other the way you say, but not me. Some of them remember me, some of them think I'm vaguely cool, perhaps, but I'm an outsider, and it's somewhat creepy that I want to come play with the sixth graders. The people with whom I shared the most intimate details of my life are no longer around, and I lack those bonds with the people who are. Things I thought I had demonstrated a long time ago about my character are things the new sixth graders don't know about me. I find that people don't know when I'm joking, or they perceive aggression from me when none is intended. (I remember one time when I posted a thread lampooning the recent rash of "Hatrack has gone downhill" posts, and someone took me seriously and suggested I leave Hatrack! There was a time, I believe, when nobody would have wanted to see me leave.)
(Which is why the next time I hear a rant about how Hatrack is not welcoming to newbies--and I'm not describing your thoughtful and insightful post here, but rather something else I see from time to time--and about how "we oldbies" are cliquish, I'm gonna rip that dumb n00b a new one.)
And Anna, this is why I think a lot of us feel comfortable in the other boards. A lot of those people who stopped finding Hatrack welcoming still post over there, and they are moderated by our friends. I have no complaints about the modding over here, but there are certain rudenesses I see over here that I don't think I'm as likely to see elsewhere, because the mods are active in their own forums. These other forums can't recapture what Hatrack meant to me, because they are splintered. But I can go there to talk to some individuals with whom I shared that period of Hatrack, and that is comforting.
My own analogy for Hatrack was not sixth grade, but undergrad dorms--of course, a way cooler (to me) set of dorms than any university ever possesed. It was like dorms where we were all just as intelligent, and shared the same interests. Being on AIM used to give me a very realtime sense of this, because I could have conversations with my fellow jatraqueros that were more immediate. But if you go back to your old college dorm a year or two after leaving the university, well, you see what I mean.
(Actually, I got this sense more on ParaChat than on AIM. AIM is so passive you can go hang out and never say two words. Nobody went to ParaChat unless they really wanted to chat. But ParaChat is a relic, now, so that is neither here nor there.)
I'm afraid this is going to come off as a bitching about Hatrack post, or a Hatrack ain't what it used to be post. And you're all welcome to tell me to get the hell out if I'm so negative, but that truly is not how I mean this. I think Hatrack still is these things, just for a different bunch of people now. For a couple of years or so, I got so much out of Hatrack that it hurt me to the brink of tears to start to realize I was an outsider. Through Hatrack I have come to know a broader spectrum of people than I could hope to know well otherwise. I have made some friends that I think the world of, and at least one who seems to like me as much in return. There are so many ways Hatrack has enriched my life, and I can't do otherwise than to look favorably upon the place.
-o-
By the way, Sharpie, I still play Scrabble, and, sadly, most of the Hatrackers who did have gotten bored with it. I would love to play with you any time.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Actually Icky, my quitting of playing scrabble had everything to do with sleep deprivation and nothing to do with being bored with it.
While I'm not at the Olympian levels of scrabble that you are, I'd love to play with you and Sharpie sometime, on a weekend, when sleep doesn't matter.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
(((Icky)))
I notice I'm not on your list.
But I agree with you. There's a transition phase when people come and go, and there were several points when I nearly stopped posting because my friends had mostly stopped - the first and most memorable being when anne kate started posting considerably less often.
Fortunately for Hatrack , I decided to stay anyway. This is sort of an extended family to me - just like my friends in the dorms and then apartment buildings and wards in college were. A few stayed the same, but most of the players there changed often as well. Don't laugh, but for someone as transient and committment-phobic as I am (used to be?), staying at Hatrack was a really big deal.
[ June 11, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
An oversight, Katharina. My apologies.
But then, you're still as prolific as you ever were, so you weren't a good example. Same goes for Tom Davidson.
And I also left Baldar off the list, for other reasons.
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:I still play Scrabble, and, sadly, most of the Hatrackers who did have gotten bored with it.
Sadly, I was one of those who got tired of Scrabble. I'd like to play again sometime, though. Just not three or four games a day. Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
Oh, please! You newbies who first met everybody at Endercon kill me!
The original group of real people were those who attended the very FIRST hatrack picnic in L.A. the summer of 2000. Namely Jacob Porter, Dean Latour (Dean), Mike Cross (moonflower or Perfect Gentleman), Richard Berg, Brian Worth, sarfa, a seven foot green scaly lizardnewbie named Slash the Berzerker, and myself. That was the one and only occasion upon which realness was conferred from scratch. All subsequent realness comes from face to face meetings with one or more of those seven, or those they've infected with realness. Obviously, only those active on hatrack at the time are potential carriers.
There were subsequent SoCal parties that Slashy, Deany, and Mikey attended which conferred realness upon Papa Moose and others, who then carried it to Endercon where it grew to epidemic proportions.
Only one real person is needed to carry the infection. Other groups of six or more hatrackers who know each other in real life may have temporary provisional real status conferred for a period of up to one year, after which if at least one of them doesn't meet someone truly real face to face then they revert to unreality.
I expect that all of the various shindas and gatherings had at least one real person among them, but it's probably best to check. Endercon had the Mooses, who were real from earlier SoCal gatherings. Wenchcon had katharina from Endercon. The PacNW gathering with Narnia, Death of Bees, Bernard, Zotto, and so on... didn't that one have Hobbes who went to Endercon? Jaiden and Pod went to Endercon and later met Amira and also the eastern Canadian contingent (twinky and BtL).
Here are my questions: Is the CFC real? Icky? How about the Provo clump? Well, Nathan went to Wenchcon so that would seem to connect that one in. I think realness can infect people backwards in time. I don't see any problem with that. The Bloomington clump has at least provisional real status, by dint of being so large. Has it been infected with true reality yet? I know there was a gathering with rivka (at least one). Did that one have the Mooses or someone in attendance which would make it really real?
This seems to cover everyone. Who got left out?
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
What about the New England clump (though I prefer the term "wad" )???
-Bok
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
We are real. Bob has met with several other clumps, we have met Ela and family, who were at Endercon, ditto for Leto, whom Cor and I have met, along with the old New Jersey clump. And Cor and I have met Papa Moose and the SoCal bunch.
So I am, in fact a carrier of realness.
[ June 11, 2004, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Members of the Bloomington Clump have met Hobbes at the OSC-Signing so their status isn't provisional.
In a reverse twist of fate, I guess I, one of the latecomers to the greater IL-WI-IA-IN clump, have made Tom Davidson real, since I am a carrier since I met Hobbes. Though there might be another strain of infection coming via Dana via Bob_Scopatz.
AJ
Posted by Damien (Member # 5611) on :
quote: IL-WI-IA-IN clump
I was trying to pronounce that, in my head, as one whole word. >_<
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:Though there might be another strain of infection coming via Dana via Bob_Scopatz.
It's always the ones you least expect.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I think I became real following the first Wisconsin get-together. I can't remember if you were at that one, Anna, but it included Dana (who would not yet have been real, either), CT -- who, following WenchCon, should have been, and at least two people who had become real at EnderCon.
Consequently, pretty much anybody who has met anyone in the Midwest clump is real.
[ June 11, 2004, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
i've posted more in the past three days than i have in the past three months put together. hatrack cycles for me. sometimes i have time for it, sometimes i don't. sometimes the topics interest me, other times i have too many things going on for me to even try to care. there's people i miss, but most of them are cyclical, too. eh, i don't worry about it. i first registered in dec 1999, and i guess if i've hung around for almost five years i'll probably never completely drop off the radar. i think hatrack has been a positive force in my life Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:So I am, in fact a carrier of realness.
Keep away! You'll infect us all!
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
I guess I'm "real" too since I went to a get-together at amka's place, and there were a couple of other jatraqueros there, though I'll de damned if I can remember what their names or handles are.
As far as cliques go. . . I feel that I post more on Ornery and nauvoo than here because here on hatrack I largely feel ignored. Too many people or something. I used to frequent illuminatingdarkness.com back when it was focused more on Morrowind, and even after it switched to focus more on anime I still went for quite a while. It was a fun little board with not too many people on it, so it became a conversation, instead of what seems to go on here -- about 5-6 of the "big names" start going around and around and if anyone else (like me, for example) interjects a post into the mix it is simply ignored. Or if it's not ignored it's dismissed.
At least -- that's my perception. I must get some responses, since I have 900 or so posts, but. . . .I largely feel ignored and no longer bother to post much, since my perception is that I'm going to be ignored anyway, so why bother?
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Sorry Jon, I've met you. I like being the link in so many places!
And yes AJ, I did go to the PacNW signing.
Hobbes Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
there's this weird blank space between jon boy's posts and hobbes. is hatrack buggy, or what?
honestly mags, most you're not ignored. just because someone doesn't "hear hear!" or "oh my heavens that is ridiculous!" after someone's post doesn't mean that people are skipping over your posts and that you are a nonentity. there are a LOT of people at hatrack. everyone's going to feel ignored at some point, and unless you go zap-flashing around just for the sake of being noticed, chances are you will feel like you don't exist. heck, for the past year until this week i have felt totally invisible at hatrack, but i hardly care. if i have something to say i say it, if i want specific feedback i'll ask for it if at first no one responds.
but then again if you don't feel like participating, i doubt anyone's going to hold it aginst you. honestly i think sometimes people put too much emotional stock in these message boards. grow some beans.
[ June 11, 2004, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: porcelain girl ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Magson - it is kind of like the floor of the stock market. That's why you get people who decide to make all their posts in bold with no punctuation in order to stand out. I think everyone gets ignored at first. I do remember that when I first came to Hatrack, anne kate took me under her wing. I think I used to try and get TomD mad at me to get noticed, too. Not that it worked. People are STILL using that particular method.
I really think it's a matter of being stubborn and paying attention to other people. And being stubborn again. And puns.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Joe, you continue to show why you are one of my favorite Hatrackers. You pretty much took exactly what I'm feeling and put it into words in a way that I couldn't. I miss my newbie days. For that matter, I miss the days when my job was new and exciting, and I miss my old college dorm and high school (even though I hated it at the time) and summers walking back and forth to my best friend's house and Boy Scout camp and all of that. Sometimes I miss it so much that I feel it as a physical sensation. I still enjoy many of the things that remain in my life, though, as well as many things that are new. I often wonder how this time in my life will look to me five, ten, twenty years down the line. I guess that's just life, eh?
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
What I want to know is this:
What does it take to be recognized as "surreal"?
I'm pretty sure I qualify, but I thought I'd throw it out to experts I trust and respect.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I think you'd have to meat a real Hatracker, but they have to be so mind-numbingly drunk that they think they were dreaming.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:you'd have to meat a real Hatracker
My goodness, Eddie.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
I suppose I won't even try to cover that up with an edit.
Posted by porcelain girl (Member # 1080) on :
yeah, that sounds about right.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:So I come back to sixth grade and it's full of all these new kids, who know each other the way you say, but not me. Some of them remember me, some of them think I'm vaguely cool, perhaps, but I'm an outsider, and it's somewhat creepy that I want to come play with the sixth graders. The people with whom I shared the most intimate details of my life are no longer around, and I lack those bonds with the people who are. Things I thought I had demonstrated a long time ago about my character are things the new sixth graders don't know about me. I find that people don't know when I'm joking, or they perceive aggression from me when none is intended
quote:And Anna, this is why I think a lot of us feel comfortable in the other boards. A lot of those people who stopped finding Hatrack welcoming still post over there, and they are moderated by our friends...But I can go there to talk to some individuals with whom I shared that period of Hatrack, and that is comforting.
quote:For a couple of years or so, I got so much out of Hatrack that it hurt me to the brink of tears to start to realize I was an outsider. Through Hatrack I have come to know a broader spectrum of people than I could hope to know well otherwise. I have made some friends that I think the world of, and at least one who seems to like me as much in return. There are so many ways Hatrack has enriched my life, and I can't do otherwise than to look favorably upon the place.
Wow, Icky, I empathize with so much of what you said. I don't think I could say it as well, and if I tried to express it, I'd probably get people mad at me anyway.
I am beginning to feel as though I don't really belong here, much, anymore.
And I hope you have more than one friend among Hatrackers, Icky. I certainly consider you one of mine. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
It's so interesting how people perceive things differently. Icky and Ela, I always thought of you two as being with the "in crowd." By the way, I like you both, whether you're in a clique or not.
space opera
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
btw Magson, are you still moving to Illinois? Our clump is mostly harmless I promise!
AJ
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Magson,
Operative word in the statement is "mostly."
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Thanks, Space Opera. I like you, too. From what I've seen of you in your posts, anyway. Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
Mag, heck, I'm STILL largely (not completely) ignored. I think it's mostly a matter of timing and posting style. It only bothers me occassionally, mostly I just state my case and not worry too much about it, assuming no response is tacit approval, or at least tolerance
-Bok
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Bok, I don't ignore you. As a matter of fact, your very name makes me happy. Everytime I see it I say to myself, "Boke - E - Non!!!" to the tune of the Pokemon cartoon. Sad, but true.
space opera
Posted by Magson (Member # 2300) on :
Actually BannaOJ, my wife realized she can't take care of the kids on her own and they are on their way to UT right now. She still expects them to be returned at the end of the summer for some reason though. . go figure.
Once the custody situation is all done, then I'll know. For now, I have no plans on moving there, since my reason for moving was to be close to the kids. If my stbx ends up the "custodial parent" (which I doubt she will, actually, in spite of the bias toward mothers -- too much evidence against her being, IMO) then I will still move to IL. But. . .that bridge won't be crossed until it's come to.
Edit to add: Bok, that's largely my attitude also. I post, and hope someone gets something from it. I'm not looking for validation or anything, it just would be nice to actually have the post acknowledged every . . oh. . . say 1 in 20 rather than the current I don't know, but it doesn't feel like even 1 in 20.
Of course, I also tend not to post on the "fluff" threads, so if I say something, I generally regard it as important, and so that colors my view too.
[ June 11, 2004, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Magson ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Sometimes I post things and people say "ha ha!" or words to that effect and I'm all like, "They like me! They really like me! I feel so validated!"
Then I realize how sad it is to get my feelings of validation from a (mostly) annonymous internet forum and get depressed and further question my own self worth.
It's a lose/lose situation. There's nothing anyone can say/not say to any of my posts that won't send me careening off into the pits of dispair. Think about THAT they next time you laugh at me.
Punks.
Posted by Chris Kidd (Member # 2646) on :
I think i was told i was real already since i meet sandy , john at endercon. and broke a few camera's, who accidtently got pictures of me. and i'd like to say im very sorry about that. ;O)
[ June 11, 2004, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris Kidd ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Bobble, that was very deep. You've helped me to think, and you're pretty dang cool.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: Then I realize how sad it is to get my feelings of validation from a (mostly) annonymous internet forum and get depressed and further question my own self worth.
This particular disease is more wide spread than you'd imagine.
I've been diagnosed with it a time or two.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: I have made some friends that I think the world of,
Note the conspicuous use of plurals.
(((Ela)))
(What I was saying was that a lot of people had impacted my life deeply--but it's not for me to say what my own impact has been. Don't doubt my own high opinion of you.)
I definitely consider you a good friend, and I hope to see you again sometime soon.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
It's okay, Icky, I wasn't feeling insecure or anything. Just wanted to make sure you know that I consider you a friend. Posted by Professor Funk (Member # 5608) on :
It looks like Hobbes is a major Typhoid Mary of realness. Can we call him that? Typhoid Hobbesy?
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I bet I've met the most Jatraqueros of anybody who wasn't present at Endercon. (And oh, how I regret missing that.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I became real about a year ago (a bit more, neh?) when I met the already-real Ralphie, Pop, Mooselet, and LadyDove. (the saxons were there too, but that was when they got infected as well)
Didn't I meet up with Dana before the first Midwest gathering? Certainly before the second. . . I think I may have made her real, and by extension, the rest of them. Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Icarus, how many?
I'm up to 61
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
rivka, there had already been two Midwest gatherings when I met up with you. And I'd met Bob, Papa Moose, and Mooselet already, so I'm pretty sure I was already real.
Edit: Am I the only person who's met Bob_Scopatz, Papa Moose, CT, and Tom D.? And do I get extra real points for that?
[ June 11, 2004, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And I knew you'd met Pop and Bob! Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
No, Dana. But you DO get a gold star.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
I'd like the third (or forth, or eightieth, or whatever it's up to now) Icky's post.
It's just not the same.
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Has anyone mentioned a "lurker" clique yet?
I think there needs to be one. Posted by SirReal (Member # 5257) on :
How about the Clique Hater's Clique? Posted by KageMusha (Member # 6613) on :
You're all members of the Doomed Clique! Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I'm up to 61
You're COUNTING?!
[ June 11, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Nate, you did not attend Endercon?
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Nope. If you check registration date it was right before it, and it just happened to be that my parents decided to go to Disneyland that weekend.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Well then I guess you beat me. How did you meet so many??
Geez, you really ARE all in Utah, aren't you?
(er, should I join Nauvoo to ask that?)
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Portland trip, WenchCon, Utah. KamaCon in August.
Inside Utah, there are 23 people that I have met, including Bob_Scopatz, and Annie (though met her in Portland, too) since they were visiting. And 2 of my friends have joined up and post on occassion. The most recent in Utah were Porteiro_Head and Bev.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Um, you're counting people you have not yet met??
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I wonder how many people I'll meet at BobAnDanaCon?
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
No, I wasn't. I should have said, just imagine how many I'll meet in August. Sorry.
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