quote:

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Why do we not get it when the church tells us that Scouting is the activities arm of the Aaronic Priesthood, from Deacons to Priests....

While I was in college, my Dad was called as a Scoutmaster and worked really hard to do it right. I had fun watching him. He was tired of the short cut merit badge factories that have become too common. He also had a vision of the use of Scouting to activate some of the prospective elders he had been working with as High Priest Group leader prior to his call. One example of how these two concerns intersected was particularly fun to observe. In our ward, there lived a saddle maker....My dad asked this brother to teach the scouts the merit badge. The projects they completed were significantly better than the above-referenced key chains, and more meaningful for the boys. Additionally, this brother had the opportunity to interact with many members of the ward and feel a little bit of fellowship that otherwise would not have been there.

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For those of you who live in the affected areas: is Boy Scouting really considered a de facto arm of the priesthood by Mormons? Can someone actually be "called" into positions of Scout leadership?

As a former Scout leader myself, I found this more than a little chilling.

[ June 25, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
That's something I hadn't thought of in awhile, Tom.

I don't have an answer, but some other questions of my own, heh. My ward has many Scouts in it as well; in fact, during meetings, Scout weekly meetings and campouts are mentioned. I'm pretty sure that the Troop in the ward is exclusively Mormon. It meets upstairs, after all.

But I've heard that men are often asked to serve as Troop leaders. This was before I converted, and it was heard from my father from other Mormons, so I'm not sure if it's a case of people being called to be a Scoutmaster, or of a need for volunteers being announced and then met.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
TD:"is Boy Scouting really considered a de facto arm of the priesthood by Mormons? Can someone actually be "called" into positions of Scout leadership?"

I can see how this might sound weird. But when we say that Scouting is the activity arm of the Church's Young Men's Program, all that really means is that we have adopted Scouting as the medium through which we provide special activities (outside of Church meetings) for the 12-17 year old boys. (Not to mention the Cub Scout program, which the Church has similarly adopted for its 8-11 year old boys.) It does not mean that we have any special control over the BSA, or even the local councils.

Individual Boy Scout troops are often sponsored by churches of all kinds. However, it is true that the LDS Church is one of the BSA's largest supporters. Each ward organizes its own troop, and the adult leaders of the troop are in fact called to those positions by the bishop of the ward. Each ward also has, or should have, a Scouting committee, whose job is to help organize and support the program. The committee members are also called by the bishop.

[ June 25, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: UofUlawguy ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"It does not mean that we have any special control over the BSA, or even the local councils."

It seems that the rest of your post is spent contradicting this sentence.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
"As a former Scout leader myself, I found this more than a little chilling."

As the mother of a former scout, I also have the chills.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
U of U,

I find your explanation less than comforting. I think many troops around here rent various churches for meetings, but so does WeightWatchers and a number of other groups. The fact that you are saying this is an adopted, sanctioned, Mormon activity, with all Mormon troops, makes me very nervous. Sorry, but I feel that if a church wants to have an activity group, they should have it, not "adopt" one.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
Me:"It does not mean that we have any special control over the BSA, or even the local councils."

TD:"It seems that the rest of your post is spent contradicting this sentence."

Well, let me put it this way. The LDS Church has no official control over the BSA or the local councils. But by the mere fact that so many Scout units are sponsored by LDS wards, we probably do have quite a large unofficial influence, particularly in certain areas of the country.

However, I (and many other members I know) predict that this relationship will not endure much longer. I would guess that within the next ten years or so the Church will cut its ties to the BSA and start its own program.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
What I found particularly interesting about the thread in question -- started by Geoff -- was that the stated purpose of Boy Scouting in the LDS church is to turn out good, "non-useless" Mormon husbands, and that many Mormons feel that Boy Scouting is failing in this task as compared to the apparently-more-useful training that Mormon women receive.

The same thread indicates that the LDS church sponsors twice as many individual troops as their nearest "competition" -- all the public schools in the country, taken collectively -- which makes sense, if it's one troop per ward. And that, oddly enough, the church registers three scout leaders for every four scouts, a statistic that I find really unusual given my own experience in the Midwest.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

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The fact that you are saying this is an adopted, sanctioned, Mormon activity, with all Mormon troops, makes me very nervous.

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This may be a stupid question, but why?
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
E:"I think many troops around here rent various churches for meetings, but so does WeightWatchers and a number of other groups. The fact that you are saying this is an adopted, sanctioned, Mormon activity, with all Mormon troops, makes me very nervous."

The fact is that many, many churches and synagogues sponsor Boy Scout troops. They don't just let them use their facilities, they actually sponsor them. This reflects the fact that individual Boy Scout troops are not truly under the control of the BSA. Somebody has to start the troop up, organize it, raise funds to run it, etc., and neither the BSA nor the local councils do this. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of Boy Scout troops are sponsored by religious groups. The remainder are probably largely sponsored by municipalities, fraternal/business organizations like the Elks, Rotary, etc., and other such groups.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
On the other hand, let's face it. Boy AND Girl Scout troops are cliques, anyway. There is not-so-subtle competition between troops,and leaders call the friends of their children to be in the troop. So, I suppose the fact that there are all Mormon troops is not out of line. Around here there are All Living in Houses Over $250,000 Troops, and My Family Has Lived in the Town for Five Generations troops.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
TD:"And that, oddly enough, the church registers three scout leaders for every four scouts, a statistic that I find really unusual given my own experience in the Midwest."

If this figure is true, I would guess it is because each boy is in Scouting for up to ten years, whereas each LDS Scout leader is called by bishop of the ward for a relatively short period of time, which might be cut even shorter by factors such as moving out of the ward, being called to a different position, or just bailing on the responsibilities. Over a period of years, quite a large percentage of the adults in a ward might end up registered in Scouting, even though each one might only have been involved with it for a short time.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*settles in comfortably*

The Boy Scouts of America does not exist without chartered organizations. The BSA provides the program materials and council support - campgrounds, booklets, and top-level recruiting and fundraising support. The chartering organization must provide a place to meet and the volunteer leaders.

That means every BSA unit is attached to another organization as well. For the majority of units, these are either churches or public schools. How those chartered organizations (CO) go about signing up the volunteer leaders changes for each CO. For LDS, yes, it is treated like the leaders for the teenager girls, and the volunteer leaders are filled by those called by the bishop of the ward (leader of the local congregation).

The LDS church has adopted the BSA program as the activities arm - the Stuff for the Teenage Boys To Do. This is not doctrine, and it isn't permanent. There have been rumors that the church is developing an alternative program to be used if (in my opinion, when) the official policies of the BSA no longer match those of the church.

--

This puts the BSA in the position of being dependent on chartered organizations for their very existence. There is absolutely no doubt that LDS have influence (in what specifics, I couldn't say) over decisions and policies. Thomas S. Monson - the second counselor of the presidency of the church - is on the board of directors here and spoke last year at the annual meeting. If that makes you horrified and want to withdraw your support, well, that's already happening to a great extent. United Way support has almost bottomed out. Alternatives will be and have been found.

----

This is different from the Girl Scouts. The Girl Scouts is more like Weight Watchers - they rent buildings, but it is the Girl Scouts that is renting them. A Girl Scout unit is answerable only to the national program, and the national organization does not partner with local organizations. This means there is much, much greater leeway and control for the national office, but it also means increased risk and a greater responsibility. It is a different system - kind of like the federal government versus local school districts. Whether or not one is better than the other, I don't have enough information to say.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
In my town, we had one troop: the "boys who live in this town and like to go camping" troop. That was pretty much where the line was drawn; if you didn't like to camp, you probably washed out.
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Scout troops are often sponsored by churches. In my hometown, there's a troop sponsored by the Methodist church and a troop sponsored by the LDS church. My dad was scoutmaster for a long time.

He never had leadership over boys in different troops - all of the boys in his troop were from our ward.

None of the activities done in scouting are religious in nature, with exception of the Duty to God award, which has parallel awards in many different faiths.

I don't know why you find this disturbing. Why can't a scouting troop composed entirely of LDS boys have LDS leaders appointed to govern it? They're not in charge of the other local troops and, from my dad's experience, the LDS leaders are in position for far shorter periods of time and are chronically less aware about local politics than the community scout leaders. They're far less of a threat to changing the status quo than scoutmasters who hold their post for an indefinite period of time and are there on their own personal ambition rather than as a religious calling.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"There have been rumors that the church is developing an alternative program to be used if (in my opinion, when) the official policies of the BSA no longer match those of the church."

Let me guess: this would be the moment it admits gay scout leaders.

---------

"Why can't a scouting troop composed entirely of LDS boys have LDS leaders appointed to govern it?"

LDS leaders appointed by the LDS church, to train the kids -- as instructed by one of your prophets -- in how to be ideal LDS youth? I'd argue that the organization crosses over into propaganda at some point along that line. The historical parallels for that sort of thing are not, in general, pleasant or flattering ones.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Thanks, Kat.

JonBoy,
It makes me nervous because LDS is a proseletyzing religion, and young children are easily influenced. To be honest, I was as disturbed by the emphasis on patriotism more than by any religious affiliation. It started to feel to me like the MILITARY was proseletyzing, if the word fits in that situation. I just like church and public organizations to be separate, I guess.

Edit: Please do not do the dogpile thing with me. I am just expressing a very raw opinion, which is already evolvoing listening to the responses.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
I don't have a problem with the LDS/BSA cooperation.

However, how come the LDS doesn't do Girl Scouts as well, then? Do they not like the Girl Scout program or what it teaches?

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Farmgirl: I think it's because of the way Girl Scouts is set up - everything is under control of the national organization. Boy Scouts work because of the local autonomy, but Girl Scouts doesn't offer that autonomy. Putting the girls in Girl Scouts would like sending them to another church - convenient, but maybe not the point.

quote:

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Let me guess: this would be the moment it admits gay scout leaders.

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quote:

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LDS leaders appointed by the LDS church, to train the kids -- as instructed by one of your prophets -- in how to be ideal LDS youth? I'd argue that the organization crosses over into propaganda at some point along that line.

---

You mean a church setting up a program to teach the young members. That's like saying Sunday School is propoganda. Which, I guess you could also say. An awfully pejorative term for it, though.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

quote:

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It makes me nervous because LDS is a proseletyzing religion, and young children are easily influenced.

---

quote:

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LDS leaders appointed by the LDS church, to train the kids -- as instructed by one of your prophets -- in how to be ideal LDS youth?

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quote:

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LDS leaders appointed by the LDS church, to train the kids -- as instructed by one of your prophets -- in how to be ideal LDS youth? I'd argue that the organization crosses over into propaganda at some point along that line. The historical parallels for that sort of thing are not, in general, pleasant or flattering ones.

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quote:

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But the difference here is that, in my experience, the vast majority of sponsoring organizations do not think of their sponsored troop as a form of official church training.

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quote:

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The idea that nothing good can escape eventually being swallowed and run by the local church is something that makes my skin crawl.

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quote:

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The vast majority of sponsoring organizations do not think of their sponsored troop as a form of official church training.

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Nor do the vast majority of Mormons.

Tom, are you even listening to the Mormons who have had experience in the Boy Scouts, or are you too busy being indignant?
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"There is as much emphasis on religious stuff and moral character as there is on camping."

See, there was plenty of emphasis on moral character, and people were definitely out getting their individual religion's merit badge if their parents made them, but there was nothing at all about religion beyond the oath itself. Had there been, I and probably half the troop would have left in disgust.

--------

"EVERY troop is swallowed by the local whatever."

Except that not every troop has its leadership hand-picked and rotated regularly by its sponsoring church, or is identified as being the official means of life-skill training for the young men of that church.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Tom I can tell you for a fact that being raised in an anti-mormon-fundamentalist-christian environment out in CA, that young boys were steered AWAY from the Boy Scouts because of the "dreaded Mormon influence". I think eventually some people did get chartered to have their own group but I don't know how long that lasted.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Then it worked. I'm glad you had a great experience.

quote:

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Except that not every troop has its leadership hand-picked and rotated regularly by its sponsoring church, or is identified as being the official means of life-skill training for the young men of that church.

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Are you listening? Yes, it is. The local leadership is ALWAYS picked by the sponsoring organization. How they do it is their business.

And whether or not its official, part of the way the BSA markets itself is as a program to train boys into moral, patriotic citizens. Maybe local organizations don't emphasize that, but that's their perogative.

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I think you had a different experience in the BSA than that, and I'm DELIGHTED it worked for you. That proves it everything's working.

*grin* Unless you think the way your troop did it is the One True Way.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
The LDS church has already adopted an alternate program to scouting-- one comparable to the Young Women's program. It's called Duty to God, and does not require participation in scouts.

The Duty to God program is very active here in VA. . .
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I need to ask Steve about this, he was one merit badge away from Eagle himself, and I've never heard him mention any sort of LDS influence at all though. But he was in Ohio. I do suspect the population composition of the BSA drastically changes west of the Rockies.

AJ
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
*wonders if Tom was ever even a Boy Scout*

FG
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
An LDS Troop having the same religious beliefs is nice for being able to be open about things of a religious nature. You can't really do that so much in a group of mixed faith/belief systems. Too much potential for offense. It is something that brings the troop together, something they all have in common. I think it is cool.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Okay, I think the reason the LDS aren't seeing this as a problem is that they aren't looking at it the way I'm looking at it:

Propaganda targeted at your own members is still propaganda. That doesn't make it LESS creepy; in fact, the opposite is probably true.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
So Tom, what you're really upset about is that LDS are raising their kids to be LDS?
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Then does the concept of BYU bother you also? LDS families sending their college-age kids to an LDS sponsored school where many of the professors are LDS and may openly share their religious feelings in class. What of Catholic Schools? Other private religious schools?
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
Define 'propaganda,' Tom.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
"LDS leaders appointed by the LDS church, to train the kids -- as instructed by one of your prophets -- in how to be ideal LDS youth? I'd argue that the organization crosses over into propaganda at some point along that line. The historical parallels for that sort of thing are not, in general, pleasant or flattering ones."

As was said, the scouting activities are not religious in nature. Scout leaders are pulled from local congregations mostly because that's the most efficient way to do it. The Church wants the boys involved in scouting because scouting provides good, wholesome activities in which they learn valuable skills and how to act responsibly and maturely. Scouting provides an outlet for the boys--which isn't strictly an LDS concept. Discussions of religion are not excluded from scouting activities, but again that's not a strictly LDS concept.

I participated in a scout troop run through my LDS congregation in Minnesota. We went on camping trips, worked on merit badges, just like any Boy Scout troop would do. We welcomed boys into the troop who were not members of the LDS church, and provided the same activities and fun for them.

I also joined another troop later on when my congregation's troop went dormant. This was a troop sponsored by a local Methodist church. And we went on campouts and did merit badge activities, and I never felt uncomfortable with them.

That's pretty much it. There was no propaganda, no Hitler's Youth, just scouting sponsored by church congregations. The values they taught to the boys were the same in the LDS and Methodist troops, and in both cases, boys of other faiths were welcomed without question.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think it's Tom's iconoclasm whirring into action. *grin*
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I'm upset that they're raising their kids in LDS clumps, in organizations locally devoted to LDS principles (to the point that the LDS will embrace and extend to swallow an organization that might otherwise appeal to their kids, just to make it more LDS), and rigorously scheduling their weekly activities -- so that the first time they encounter non-LDS societies in any real way, they're deliberately isolated as missionaries sent to save the heathens from themselves (while escorted in order to ensure their non-participation in that larger society). And once they return, they marry the LDS girl they met four months before they left and start the cycle over.

This is, again, probably a Utah culture thing. But it's downright spooky.

-----

Yeah, I intend to let my kids see my values in action so they can decide whether to follow 'em or not. But the idea of blanketing my kids in those ideals so they can't see the alternatives is not one that appeals.

[ June 25, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Good thing he's having a girl, at least this time

AJ
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
TD:"UofU, the very fact that Scouting is another such monolithic and semi-mandated function of the LDS church within the church is exactly what horrifies me. I don't worry so much about the ramifications at the national level of the organization as I do about the perversion of the troop structure into yet another church-run rung on the ladder of self-improvement. The idea that nothing good can escape eventually being swallowed and run by the local church is something that makes my skin crawl."

Maybe this admission will prove something about my own character flaws, but I am completely failing to understand your indignation here. It's not just that I don't agree with it; I honestly don't understand the nature of your objection.

What should we do differently? Right now, each ward sponsors a troop. Should we not do this? Should no religious group sponsor Boy Scout troops?

The sponsoring ward provides the adult leaders of the troop. Should we not do this? How else should the leaders be obtained?

The troop usually holds its weekly meetings in the ward's meetinghouse. Should we get a different building to meet in?

We earn merit badges, go to BSA summer and winter camps, wear BSA uniforms, attend BSA training, and follow all BSA programs. Should we avoid doing this since our troops are sponsored by LDS wards?

We encourage ALL our boys to be active in Scouting, though many choose not to do so and there are no negative repurcussions for such a choice. Should we be less/more zealous in trying to get the boys involved?

We often begin meetings with prayer, in addition to praying at meals and before taking long trips. If a camp extends over a Sunday, often a small service is held to which LDS boys may go if they so desire. Should we avoid these religious expressions when we are in Scout mode?

Just what do you mean by "perverting the troop structure into yet another church-run rung on the ladder of self-improvement." This sentence makes no sense to me.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
So you problem is with the whole LDS belief system, Tom -- not with their use of the Boy Scouts system.

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 
Actually, my brother was in a Catholic troop. It sounds somewhat similar to LDS troups. There may have been non-Catholics in my brother's troop but I don't know for sure. I never thought anything about it until we went to an Eagle scout ceremony. The bishop was there, there was this big ceremony in the cathedral, and they made it sound like becoming an eagle scout was practically sacred and that these boys were on the path to great things. Religious greatness was hinted at. I was pretty annoyed at the time. I was probably 18. I am not sure if I was annoyed because they made such a big deal out of such fine, upstanding young Catholic men who might even grow up to be priests, or because they didn't have anything similar for women, or what. But it was a very religious ceremony, considering religion was never really brought up during scouting meetings or activities, so far as I know.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Ahhhh! The LDS are taking over the world! Run away!!!!



If they don't live in Utah, they have every opportunity to interact with non-LDS. If they live in Utah, that is a problem, but not because of BSA. Yeah, I do think that is a problem people here face. That is why I don't want to live in Utah forever. I want my kids to have a more realistic sense of what is out there.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"So you problem is with the whole LDS belief system, Tom -- not with their use of the Boy Scouts system."

Well, duh.
It's just that I didn't realize they were using the Boy Scouts the way they used everything else. And as a Boy Scout myself, I'm more upset about that than I would be if they were, for example, appointing leaders to 4-H.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 

quote:

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Actually, my brother was in a Catholic troop. It sounds somewhat similar to LDS troups. There may have been non-Catholics in my brother's troop but I don't know for sure. I never thought anything about it until we went to an Eagle scout ceremony. The bishop was there, there was this big ceremony in the cathedral, and they made it sound like becoming an eagle scout was practically sacred and that these boys were on the path to great things. Religious greatness was hinted at. I was pretty annoyed at the time. I was probably 18. I am not sure if I was annoyed because they made such a big deal out of such fine, upstanding young Catholic men who might even grow up to be priests, or because they didn't have anything similar for women, or what. But it was a very religious ceremony, considering religion was never really brought up during scouting meetings or activities, so far as I know.

---

*nods* I really think this is more normal than otherwise. From the perspective of the national office, I can say that it is the assumption.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
Just poking my big fat nose in. I had no idea that Mormons were so heavily involved in scouting. I don't think that tends to happen around here (Kentuckiana). We tend to get more Christian troops. Operaetta is joining American Heritage Girls this fall, which is a Christian-based organization. However, they welcome people of all faiths and as a troop leader told me "it's not Sunday school on Monday night."

space opera
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Why am I not surprised that this hit the second page in a little over an hour?
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
If you can't get offended (or hurt), then you aren't being open about religious issues,IMO.

Of course this is a major tangent, so I'll leave it at that.

-Bok, a Tiger Cub/Cub Scout until my troop got disbanded
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
For what it's worth, I did Campfire girls.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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And as a Boy Scout myself, I'm more upset about that than I would be if they were, for example, appointing leaders to 4-H.

---

Run! 'Dem cows done been mormanized!

Dagonee
*Tom, this isn't aimed at you, and I don't think it's what your saying. It's more inspired by AJ's recollections.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"For what it's worth, I did Campfire girls."

I'm not going to comment on what THAT made me think.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Oh for crying out loud...
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Lol and to collaborate with Tom's comment on the subject 4-H was considered the "safe" (theologically speaking) alternative to Boy Scouts though since we were in a city, most of the boys found the crafting activities way too girly.

AJ
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
TD:"I'm upset that they're raising their kids in LDS clumps, in organizations locally devoted to LDS principles"

This really does sound like you object to religious people raising their kids in their religion.

TD:"(to the point that the LDS will embrace and extend to swallow an organization that might otherwise appeal to their kids, just to make it more LDS)"

How so? Just because the ward sponsors the troop? Who else is going to do it? In many of our communities, there are no other troops available. Besides, as I and others have said, it is very, very common for religious groups to sponsor troops. We are not the only ones that do it. And we do not "make it more LDS." We follow the BSA program.

TD:"and rigorously scheduling their weekly activities -- so that the first time they encounter non-LDS societies in any real way, they're deliberately isolated as missionaries"

I don't know where you get this. Do you think we all send our kids to Church-run schools, or home-school? Do you think we don't have neighbors with children not of our faith? Do yoou think we don't send our kids to sports teams, lessons, clubs, etc?

TD:"(while escorted in order to ensure their non-participation in that larger society)."

That's not the reason for missionaries to work in pairs, and I think you know it.

TD:"And once they return, they marry the LDS girl they met four months before they left and start the cycle over."

This is very upsetting, bordering on slanderous. It's definitely inflammatory. Again, I think you know better.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
I think one of Tom's alternatives to setting up your own largely separate troops would be to instead send your kids to any existing troops that may exist in your area.

Now, this may be done already, but from what I've read in the thread here, it doesn't seem all that common, and certainly not a default.

-Bok
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Actually, yeah. That sounds like a slap to some people we know. Bad form.

quote:

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Now, this may be done already, but from what I've read in the thread here, it doesn't seem all that common, and certainly not a default.

---

I think Scott said that he did that as a kid.

The units do have to be sponsored by someone, and the majority are sponsored by a church.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
U of U, if this ever becomes a place where Tom D (who has been around here far longer than you or me) can't express his honest opinions on a subject, I'm leaving Hatrack.

AJ
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
I think LawGuy was saying it was insulting, not that he shouldn't be allowed to say it.

Added: If you leave, I swear I'll hunt you down.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I also can't help but wonder how much of this is an LDS culture vs actual theology too.

I mean do they have Boy Scouts at wards in South America?

AJ

And *slanderous* does blatantly imply to me he shouldn't be allowed to say it Kat.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Tom, you don't like it that the church is so heavily involved in scouting, but once the church pulls out of scouting, it will be because we don't support gay scout leaders. Either way, we're in the wrong. *sigh*
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
And if this ever becomes a place where we don't expect everyone to treat others with respect, I'm leaving Hatrack.
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Oh my! it's Lawguy! now I see that. I read it as U of Ulagway.

Sorry, continue.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
AJ:"U of U, if this ever becomes a place where Tom D (who has been around here far longer than you or me) can't express his honest opinions on a subject, I'm leaving Hatrack."

So would I.

Tom (like everyone else)is free to express his honest opinions in any way he likes. However, he (like everyone else) doesn't get off scott-free when his expression is deliberately inflammatory.
 

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Posted by EricM (Member # 6642) on :
 
Theca, the Eagle ceremony is different everywhere. Every one I've ever been to has been really different.

The most bizzare part of all of this to me is that the ward has so much to do with picking the leadership of the troop. I don't like that. Its an okay idea that it be rotated every 2-3 years, but I don't like someone outside of the troop picking it. I don't like the idea that the priest/minister whatever tells you that this is your calling. The leadership of the troop can make or break it. It determines, to a large extent the type of activities and their number. I don't like the inplications that 1 person is picking it. (I also have issues with the picking part, but not to the same extent.)

Also, in my experience, in southwestern PA anyway, the sponsoring organization doesn't have all that much to do with the actual running of the troops. The amount varies from troop to troop but they definatively don't pick the leadership.

Religion is only as much of an issue in the troop as the troop chooses to make it. I've seem troops that make a big deal, and troop that don't ever mention it at all. So that issue isn't a problem for me. The bigger concern is how non LDS members are treated, but if what is said is true they that isn't an across the board problem.

(This is HollowEarth, the password to that account is at home. Hence the new one. Did Hatrack always want address and phone number? Or is that a new thing?)
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Not that anyone ever reads my posts, but I also said earlier that I joined a Methodist troop for a time, and that my LDS congregation's troop (when it was active) welcomed boys regardless of faith.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

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In many of our communities, there are no other troops available....And we do not "make it more LDS." We follow the BSA program.

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Do you think we all send our kids to Church-run schools, or home-school? Do you think we don't have neighbors with children not of our faith? Do yoou think we don't send our kids to sports teams, lessons, clubs, etc?

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That's not the reason for missionaries to work in pairs, and I think you know it.

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"And once they return, they marry the LDS girl they met four months before they left and start the cycle over."

This is very upsetting, bordering on slanderous. It's definitely inflammatory. Again, I think you know better.

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Also, in my experience, in southwestern PA anyway, the sponsoring organization doesn't have all that much to do with the actual running of the troops. The amount varies from troop to troop but they definatively don't pick the leadership.

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It's a useful tactic when in a minority population, but quickly becomes creepy and ultimately diseased when practiced by a majority.

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So when did Mormonism become the majority religion?
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I did the whole beavers/cubs/scouts thing back in Nova Scotia. There was one in my home town, and a few others in surrounding towns and one exclusively Mormon one that pooled people from several communities. Not that we weren't free to join the Mormon ones, just that no Mormons joined the ones that were already in their community.

I cannot, for the life of me, remember God being mentioned at any scouting event. Not on the local level or the provincial level (I never did any on a national level). Except for the one LDS scout event I went to. It totally wigged me out. All I wanted to do was go tobagganing, why exactly were we praying?

God bless secular Canada
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"So when did Mormonism become the majority religion?"

*points back to the Utah comment*

Consider that I'm doing you a favor; if I can slow down recruiting so that you never become the majority culture anywhere else, you can continue to be offended by this kind of unjust criticism as long as it only applies to people born in a small geographic corridor.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
It is here...

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if I can slow down recruiting so that you never become the majority culture anywhere else

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Resistance is futile.

Added: Considering what Tom thinks happens in AIM conversations, maybe he won't think that's funny. *muses*

[ June 25, 2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by DiffidentVoice (Member # 3019) on :
 
Tom's point is apparently that when people try to live their lives the way they want to, rather than in a Tom Approved Fashion (tm), it is "chilling" and "horrifying". Tom reserves the right to belittle people having beliefs that are divergent from his, and this is no way Intolerant.

Tom, in another thread you said you were not aware of any LDS Hatrack members leaving because of things you've said. Well, I'm one. I left because you are unwilling to give people with different opinions the benefit of the doubt, and when you combine that immediate hostility with you voluminous posting ability, I felt that this was not an envrironment inclusive enough for me. I still lurk on occasion, but running across your arguments is still off-putting.

I no longer believe that it's me. It's you, and I'm calling you on it. There have been several people that have also called you on it, and you are defending your behavior rather than apologizing. You seem to be more concerned with your argument than the people you are arguing with. Hatrack truly *is* a place where some beliefs are not treated respectfully.

I'm outta here.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Bok: Yes, I started in the LDS troop, but this was in Duluth, MN, not Utah. My congregation offered scouting, and was the only one I knew of. And other kids I knew were also in the troop. I likely would have joined another troop if I knew people in it. But my troop was active at the time, had our church meetinghouse gym to meet in, and went on fabulous week-long canoeing trips in the Boundary Waters every year.

The Methodist troop I later joined met a long way away from where I lived, but again, it was the only active troop I knew of. I wanted to advance in rank, and I wanted to be in a troop that actually worked on merit badges.

Edit: And you know, the Methodist troop was a lot more overtly religious than the LDS troop ever was. We had campfire Bible study.

[ June 25, 2004, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Tom's point is apparently that when people try to live their lives the way they want to..."

Nope. My point is that when people try to make their children live the lives they want them to....

I think religious fundamentalism and group-think of all kinds is the single biggest threat to the stability of our culture. Hands-down. There is NO challenge that, in the long-term, is more dangerous. And so anything that produces homogenous religious culture is, by its very nature, deeply unnerving.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

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Jacare, how immune from criticism do you expect someone's religion to make them? At what point does the fact that something is a principle of some religion exempt it from being discussed?

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I'm NOT a big fan of the Mormon trifecta: convert, isolate, and dominate.

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I think it's unhealthy, and probably contributes quite a bit to the otherwise unfair "cult" accusations. It's a useful tactic when in a minority population, but quickly becomes creepy and ultimately diseased when practiced by a majority. This BSA thing, to me, is just another symptom.

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Jacare, if I were being snarky, I'd say it's simply turnabout for the LDS saying, "You non-LDS people offend us, so we're going to send missionaries out an about to make you see the light."

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I know a great many people who have EXACTLY the same opinion as Tom about the LDS involvment with the Boy Scouts and that actually present their views far more vehemently.

Why can't we discuss that this is something that very much squicks non mormons out? How are you Mormons ever going to be able to understand the perspective to try to convert us if nothing else?

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I think it says more about you that you think this is another "Oh, the big, bad LDS offends me!" thread.

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It's interesting that an ostensibly ecumenical organization is part of a religious practice... The lines seem kinda blurred here to me.

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*points back to the Utah comment*

Consider that I'm doing you a favor; if I can slow down recruiting so that you never become the majority culture anywhere else, you can continue to be offended by this kind of unjust criticism as long as it only applies to people born in a small geographic corridor.

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Nope. My point is that when people try to make their children live the lives they want them to....

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"Tom's point is apparently that when people try to live their lives the way they want to..."

Nope. My point is that when people try to make their children live the lives they want them to....

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I see the smiley. . . but I don't know what it means.

How does one raise a child without trying to pass on one's own vaules?
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
AJ:"the leaders AREN'T chosen. They VOLUNTEER."

All right then, who do the volunteers come to when they want to volunteer? Isn't there somebody that gives the volunteers their OK? Are all people willing to volunteer allowed to do so? And what happens when there are no volunteers, or not enough? Doesn't somebody go around and ask people in the community if they would be willing to get involved?

The LDS system isn't much different from this. It's just more formalized.
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
afr, thanks for that. It doesn't refute my point (I didn't use universals), but it appears to not apply to you.

kat, I disagree that it ought to be blurred. It's one thing for a church (ANY church) to provide money and resources for a troop.

I think it's a whole other (weird, IMO) thing to utilize the an ecumenical group's structure (which was presumably to increase the pool of participants) to essentially create a unoffical arm of the religion. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean it's agreeable. See the whole "felons go door-to-door" thread as an example of that. By essentially ensuring that the LDS troops are always run by LDS, I think it looks, to the outside, as the LDS leveraging the resources of a separate group in a way that is not in the spirit of that group.

Now, maybe the spirit of the group has changed. The question is then why?

-Bok
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.

Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?

AJ
 

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Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
 
Okay, here's the opinion from a Mormon who has been in several bishoprics (the group that leads the congregation) and chosen boy scout and cub scout leaders:

When we have needed a new scout leader for the boys, regardless of age, we have not considered who was the most spiritual, who was the best teacher of religion, who could best hynotize the boys into following "the path," or who would be best at indoctrinating the kids into being good little future robot missionaries.

In every case, we looked for a person who enjoyed working with kids, who had the time needed to do the job, and who the kids would like and respect. Scoutmasters are men that often become second fathers or substitute fathers for boys and so they must be moral men of good conscience. We used to joke that the best scoutmasters were retired grandpa types with pick-ups and a little extra cash.

Some leaders have worked out well and done good jobs. Others have not. It is the same kind of statistic you will find in any organization or business. The people who were asked to work with the boys were also not required to do so, but only asked to do so. They had right of refusal.

You are also permitted within the LDS church to "call" a non-Mormon to be a scout leader; membership is not required (and we have had several scout leaders that fit this profile). Guess that kind of throws out the indoctrination theory.

Now, as far as the gay question goes, the LDS Church will drop the BSA program like a hot potato if BSA is required to allow gays into the organization. Elder Boyd K. Packer, President of Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has stated this publicly. He is also one of the biggest scout supporters within the church!

We have lived in areas where there were not enough LDS kids to form our own troops or packs and have gone into conjunction with other schools or churches to form these groups. In one town, the cub scouts were sponsored jointly by three different churchs. The three clergymen sat down together, as the representatives of the sponsoring organizations, and selected den mothers, cub masters, etc. This was done with the idea of providing the best leadership possible to the boys, regardless of the religious beliefs of the leader or the church affiliation of each boy.

All LDS boys are not required to be actively involved in the program and work towards their eagle rank. In one congregation, we had separate groups on our youth night for the boys in scouting versus the boys who were not interested. The boys who did not care for the program far outnumbered the scouts.

All of this said, I must now state that I have a major dislike for the scouting program and the way that it is often administered. I am one of those who would not mind it if the LDS church dropped it's sanctioning of the program.
 

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Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
 
Sticks nose in to say that I though ludosti had the best comments in the whole thread, and seems to have the best understanding of what disturbs Tom about LDS involvement in the BSA.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
U of U, in my experience (which isn't directly with the Boy Scouts so Tom please correct me) is that there are Never Enough Volunteers. This means that the volunteers that are volunteering have to have an extra amount of commitment and dedication as a result. They are never assigned to work anywhere except as the leaders get together and figure out strengths and weaknessess and divvy up jobs accordingly.

The turnover of leaders generally comes with the age of the kids they are parenting. They might stay in for a while after their own children move through the ranks and possibly volunteer from strong positive experiences in their own lives, but on average that is how you get the volunteer turnover. There will always be new parents coming in as thier particular child grows up, and there will always be a few parents leaving as they move on with that stage of their lives.

The nice thing is kids who don't have parents with the time money or ability to volunteer, benefit from the parents who do volunteer.

AJ
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Tom's description is like when your arm goes to sleep and when you touch it it feels like someone else's arm. Kind of an exhilaratingly creepy sensation.
 

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Posted by skillery (Member # 6209) on :
 
"It's been a long and great relationship"
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
I am still having a hard time understanding. So please, those who are disturbed by the LDS Church's involvement in Scouting: tell me what is wrong. What are we doing wrong? What should we do differently? Please be specific.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Your leadership publicly embraces the Scouts at the highest levels of the church.

No other churches, even those who have Scouting programs locally would go that far.

As theca mentioned there was some interersting Catholic involvment in the Eagle ceremony she attended, but you don't see the Catholic Cardinals in the US publically and grandiosely making the same sweeping proclamations about the Boy Scouts that you see the LDS leadership making.

Also Catholics (while they are theoreically) don't have the "proselytizing" focus that LDS and other protestant groups have. Come on, how many times have you been actively recruited into Catholicism?

AJ

I guess I lied, after a quick google it does apear that a catholic organization does exists though I don't know how officially sanctioned it is. I'd never heard of it before, which is telling since I was raised in the western U.S. where even though there is an extremely high Catholic population, Scouting is seen as the domain of the LDS church.

http://www.nccs-bsa.org/emblems-awards/emblems.php

[ June 25, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

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the Mormon church takes great steps to promote activities within its own circle. Many of these activities are essentially mandatory, and are very time-consuming.

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Most of its membership feels pressured to spend two years of their lives in an unfamiliar city, accompanied by a core group of fellow members and completely -- and deliberately -- cut off from contact with the surrounding culture, with the intent of doing both good works and learning/spreading doctrine.

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Its members often believe themselves to be victims of persecution, and speak repeatedly of not being "of the world." In fact, I've seen the word "worldly" used as a cutting insult.

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Dominate: the Mormon church identifies activities that are "good" and takes steps to fold those activities into their control.

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Members are expected to regularly visit other members to discuss religion and, not incidentally, check up on them.

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Members are routinely assigned tasks by church leadership; these tasks can include additional religious teaching.

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Peer pressure within Mormon communities is fairly heavy and, from what I've seen, Southern-style gossip is almost a sport; this ensures that deviation from the norm is punished almost immediately.

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I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.

Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?

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Most of its membership feels pressured to spend two years of their lives in an unfamiliar city, accompanied by a core group of fellow members and completely -- and deliberately -- cut off from contact with the surrounding culture, with the intent of doing both good works and learning/spreading doctrine.

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Dawn (the mom of the family) laughed, and said she'd thell me what was told to her by some men she used to work with in retail. All five of them (one a former eagle scout) all five of them said they had been molested in Scouts. They told her, "Whatever you do, keep little Micheal out of Scouts." So she did.

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They worry about that all the time here. Seriously. There are all sorts of rules that are supposed to prevent that, including background checks and always-two-leaders-together rules. There should be NO activity where only one leader is in charge of the boys. That's seriously the worst nightmare for the BSA.
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
skillery:"Query: If the LDS Church wanted to thoroughly hijack Scouting, wouldn't they do vicarious temple work for the founding father of Scouting: Robert Baden-Powell?"

What do you want to bet it's been done already?
 

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Posted by Alai's Echo (Member # 3219) on :
 
This is so typical of LDS-related threads here that question LDS activities. People are tripping over each other to be more insulted and offended than the previous.
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 

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Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?

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I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.

Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?
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Banna- am I right that you have no kids?
Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic.

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since the Mormon goal is to be the majority religion worldwide, we have to judge its quality as a culture based on the places where it IS the majority.

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Banna- am I right that you have no kids?
Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic. Sure you want your kids to make their own decisions, but it is a long, hard road before they get to the point when they can understand consequences enough to make good decisions.

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Yes I have no kids. Notice I said the child should back up his opinions with thoughtful rationale. Yes difining thoughtful rationale is a judgement call, but I doubt you could get thoughtful rationale from your pizza and candy eating daughter, the whole point is exactly to get them to the point of thoughtful rationale.

Now the question is, when your child does get to that point (which varies widely with age, see Ender for details) what do you do when your child comes up with a list of thoughtful reasons for disagreeing with you? Do you respect their right to make their own decisions or not? (I actually have observed the answer to this question of parenting falling exactly down classic Liberal and Conservative lines but that is a different issue)

The other problem is that people that think they are right won't actually listen to dissenting thoughtful rationale, which is why I have been near ostracised from my own family.

AJ

[ June 25, 2004, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Alai's Echo (Member # 3219) on :
 
I'm not hiding. This is the only name here I use. It was given to me some time ago by the person who had registered it. Considering my opinions when I began using the name actively, I'm still surprised it hasn't been canned already. Guilty by association and all that.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
OK, I admit it, I'm still confused about why this is a bad thing; but I think I'm getting closer to it. Can I try something? I'll list out why i think it's a good/not bad thing and someone can point out either which one(s) of my reasons are wrong and what reasons for being a bad thing I missed.

BSA has to be sponsered by someone, and if the Church dropped it, many of those clubs would simply dissapear, most would not be picked up by other organizations.

BSA is a tool, designed to meld with it's sponsering organization (with specific guidelines as to how much). The LDS Church is using it as that tool, and not using it as something it's not supposed to be (meaning, for example, that it doesn't use it to teach religious princibles, or "indoctrinate", but focus on the purpose of BSA, life skills and all that).

Though others are allowed to join, the LDS sponsered ones are clearly LDS, meaning you don't just stumble into an LDS sponsered one, and the idea of using something as a tool for conversion when almost none of the people it affects *need* that conversion seems a bit silly.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
 
Jacare, I don't actually feel that way, but I felt you were being at least a little snarky yourself.

I don't think that missionary work is equivalent to what I described. I have no problems with it.

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Jalapeno, thanks for the info; the fact that you will look outside the group (though not likely as a first choice) is a more concrete reassurance. It also renders my earlier argument incorrect.

-Bok
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
AJ, I think that a lot of parents struggle with these issues with their children, especially if they have strong beliefs. Some of them handle it immaturely (as I believe your parents did). It is not strange for someone with strong religious beliefs to want their child to believe also. But they should want that child to believe willingly, not to be "duped" or "forced" into it. I would be sad if one of my children decided they didn't believe in God, very sad. It would be very difficult for me to deal with.

But "thwap"? No. Children grow up. They become adults that think for themselves. Parents have to let go. You just can't continue to exert the same control over them that you did when they were 3. I know some parents do, and I don't agree with it.

Tom, you believe that people of religious mindsets try to brainwash others into believing as they do, perhaps because from your perspective you can't imagine any other reason why someone would convert. It doesn't make sense to you. You seem to be very disapproving of "proselyting", but in my mind you are one of the strongest proselyters on this board.

It seems to me you want to actively steer people away from religious beliefs. But you choose to poke fun at and belittle other's beliefs. It is subtle, but it is there. I see a fair amount of that coming from agnostics and athiests here, actually. On the other hand, I see very little of that coming from the religious minded here. That is just how things look from my perspective.

Maybe I am the only one who sees it that way. Maybe it is because I am religious that it seems that way, and my view is skewed. Difficult to tell for sure.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
To address something from earlier:

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We have already assured you that proselytizing does not go on in the LDS troops. Are you saying, then, that local congregations of churches that actively proselytize should never be allowed to organize Scout troops, even if the troops are not used this way? Why?

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But "thwap"? No. Children grow up. They become adults that think for themselves. Parents have to let go. You just can't continue to exert the same control over them that you did when they were 3. I know some parents do, and I don't agree with it.

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I'm going to take this a slightly differently direction bev.

I would say, that the LDS I see here on hatrack, that I respect the most, that think for themselves have Exactly this problem with the LDS structure/culture attempting to control them like three year olds, even as they do their best to remain faithful followers.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Are you asking if LDS would choose not to share their beliefs if given the opportunity? I think you are correct, they in most cases will. If a non-LDS boy chooses to attend an LDS troop, sharing of beliefs is probably going to happen.

I guess this would disturb some. But in my mind it is just LDS living their religion, and if it bothers someone, they are free to steer clear of those troops.

If the LDS troops are the only ones around? That does make it tough. Sorry, no easy answer there.

But it remains true that most troops "recruit" new scouts, and LDS troops do NOT. I just want to make sure that point is understood.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
And bev, I'm afraid there are Always going to be more immature people than mature people out there, which leaves me quite cynical at times, even though I'm generally an optimst.

Is cynical optimist an oxymoron?

AJ
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 
Maybe that's true AJ, but even so, I don't think you're one of them, I think you rock!

Hobbes
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

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I would say, that the LDS I see here on hatrack, that I respect the most, that think for themselves have Exactly this problem with the LDS structure/culture attempting to control them like three year olds, even as they do their best to remain faithful followers.

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But it remains true that most troops "recruit" new scouts, and LDS troops do NOT. I just want to make sure that point is understood.

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If the LDS troops don't recruit, it does somewhat rebutt the prosyletizing concern, but it also re-inforces the insular monolithic culture concern.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Hmmm, is it possible to be cynical and optomistic at the same time? I guess so. I think part of it is that you approach a situation cautiously, but when you are given reason to trust, you trust deeply. Just thinking aloud here.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 

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To clarify, do you mean within families, or within the community? I think this sort of thing does happen, at least to some extent, especially in areas where there are lots of LDS.

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If the LDS troops don't recruit, it does somewhat rebutt the prosyletizing concern, but it also re-inforces the insular monolithic culture concern.

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We can't win, can we?
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Nope

I'm not sure which of those two concerns is at the top of Tom's list, though they are interrelated.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I think Tom put it very well when he said that other groups do these things well, but not as well as the Mormons. I guess we are a scary lot.

Thanks, Tom, on behalf of all LDS, for the back-handed complement.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Bev, I said the same thing in an earlier post.

AJ, I certainly don't think the church is trying to control anyone like a 3-year-old. There really is not that sense inside the church. If that's the opinion of many who have other beliefs, then it's being perpetuated by people who have other beliefs. There is a perception of the church leadership as being very dominating and controlling. That is simply not true; the teachings of the church also do not advocate that kind of treatment. If it happens, it is on an individual basis and does not reflect the overall values of the church or its membership.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Tom,

No, you didn't mention Hitler Youth even once. But you were parelleling LDS involvement in the BSA to similar activities done by other, unsavory and bad groups in the past.

Anyone who has heard about the Hitler Youth, I'm sure they knew at least one of the unsavory groups you were talking about. I expect that's what Jacare meant. And I think it's what YOU meant-drawing a comparison between practices.

--------

I empathize with you. Someone who regards the sanctity of personal choice in choosing a religion is *bound* to be upset, even offended, at practices that smack of blunting that choice. And, you know, raising children in one's religious beliefs-even if it's just bringing them with you to church-has that affect. Even if it's very, very carefully and honestly done without intent to take away the choice and make it the ONLY thing, the natural thing.

If I ever have children, I think I will try (and fail) to walk the same razor-thin, wavering line between raising my child(ren) in what I think is right, and making sure that they choose the right thing to do for themselves. Not only for religious reasons-I think God likes it much, much more for people to do that for themselves than because it's expected, but because I'm a half-baked humanist who thinks people are happier and better that way without religion than if they do the right thing because it's expected BY religion.

But assume that parents fail in that task, whether they chose to attempt it or not. Their children choose to hold to their parents' religion because they lacked any other choices. Someday, the children will grow up and be adults making their own decision. They will have the emotional, spiritual, and financial power to say, "To hell with this!" if they want to. If they don't, I think it's fair to assume that their religion has become their choice-even if it's an unhappy choice they make more out of obligation than out of genuine freedom.

LDS emphasis on not being of the world has a spiritual and a practical aspect to it, as do most religious issues. I think part of the practical aspect is to prevent temptation, and another way of describing that is to say limiting choices. It's something I'm not comfortable with; I suppose that's why I'm not a very good Mormon-I still watch rated-R movies, for example, and I hang around with people who drink and smoke, but I don't do those two things myself. *shrug*

Anyway, I'm rambling. Just wanted to say I understand your concern and your wariness. And Olivia, that's terrible and very frightening. I think the choice you talked about was the ONLY good choice; what parent would've sent their child into BSA after hearing THAT?
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
They may not be Trying, to control people like 3-year olds. But the impresssion that I have gotten from Hatrack, time and time again, is that the LDS people who actually Do think for themselves often get treated like three year olds by the culture (which is very tied to the religion and hard to extricate dispite all of the claims of how it's working in other countries) for doing so. Now this is my impression of their experiences so I could be wrong but I'm just sharing observations here.

AJ
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
As a Latter-day Saint who thinks for himself, I can say that I've never felt like the Church was trying to control me. I think most fellow LDS Hatrackers would agree.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Jon Boy you were also born and raised with the culture and as far as I can tell have no reason to clash with it, other than bad grammar

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
afr, sorry if I said something you had already said--I didn't mean to run-over something you said.

I agree with afr in that I don't think the church endorses such behavior, but I do think it happens. Human nature and all.

Edit: True, Jon Boy and AJ, I think in "thinking for themselves" we are to read "disagrees with mainstream LDS thought". If you have not openly disagreed with mainstream LDS thought, then you wouldn't have experienced it.

[ June 25, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
Not at all, bev. I was responding to something different--yet eerily similar.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
but disagreeing with "mainstream" thought does not actually include disagreeing with the theology, yet people are treated like they had.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Yeah, I hate it when LDS get culture and theology mixed up. Ticks me off.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Banna: I agree with that, although I also have to admit it is like all the editorials complaining that they were the only ones who dared to mention something disparaging about Reagan during the Week of Yougooglizing. There did seem to be quite a few, and no one got smacked down.

[ June 25, 2004, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
 
Banna, I'm saying that you keep talking about all these "people" who feel this way, and yet I've never noticed that anyone feels that way. Actually, I feel like you're being somewhat vague (probably in the interest of not naming names, like "I've noticed that Jon Boy feels repressed").
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
There are several "ex-LDS" on this forum. Some of the experiences may have come from there.
 

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Posted by Jacare Sorridente (Member # 1906) on :
 

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.

Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Banna- am I right that you have no kids?
Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic.
It is? Imagine my surprise, having raised two great kids to think on their own and come to their own conclusions...

They both definitely have minds of their own, often don't agree with me and their dad, and many here can testify to the fact that they really are great kids.

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Ela- I think you may have misunderstood me and I in turn may have misunderstood Banna.

Here is what I was trying to say:
I often run across the idea that parents shouldn't "indoctrinate" their children and should let them "choose for themselves".

I think that this idea is absurd because of the very nature of raising children. Children see what their parents do. They see what their parents value, what they believe and how they spend their time. Even if parents never gave a single lecture to their kids the children would inevitably be "indoctrinated" with their parents values. But what's more, good parents want very badly for their children to be good people. To this end parents teach their children to share and "don't hit your sister" and "say please" and so on. But children are very inquisitive and they want to know why they shouldn't hit their sisters and why they should share. Eventually the parents must arrive in their explanations to the ultimate rationale- the foundation of their code of ethics. This may be taught by diffusion simply by living example or it may be in words, but I think it fair to say in every case the children will sooner or later come to understand that mom and dad think that the gospel of Christ is the most important thing in the world and the foundation of everything they teach, or maybe the founding philosophy is humanism and progress or whatever it may be. Whatever the philosophy the truth is that the children will find it out whether consciously or no and the children will try to emulate the parents and the parents will almost always be pleased by this.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Why can't we judge the quality of LDS culture based on the people who live the teachings while surrounded by differing cultures and beliefs?"

My answer to this is that the best judge of any organization or philosophy's merit is the way it behaves when in power and able to put its theories into mass practice.

That said, I think Rak's managed to boil it down for me: I can't imagine anything more personal or more deserving of absolute, complete non-interference than religion, and since I think of values as being something independent of faith, I don't necessarily see that the passing of one is contingent upon the promotion of the other. Ergo, it creeps me out.

There's another part of it, too, the socially traditionalist/conformist part, that bothers me on another level, but I might move discussion of that to a second thread because, at heart, it has nothing to do with religion OR scouting.

[ June 25, 2004, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Exactly Jon Boy, I don't really want to start pointing fingers at individuals. Like I said, it is a personal interpretation of what those people have said at various times as well. I'm pretty darn certain though that all of them genuinely believe LDS theology.

AJ
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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since I think of values as being something independent of faith

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Since a great many people don't, I think you're stuck being creeped out.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Yeah, but you're stuck listening to me complain about it.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Everyone wins!
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

 

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Posted by EricM (Member # 6642) on :
 
UofUlawguy, I'll post a better explaination later, but AJ is basically right. They volunteer. They are approved by the troop council, and they get the job. When no one volunteers, that troop slows way down until someone does, or it folds all together. When there are too many volunteers, you either have too many people or someone gets told no.

Seriously what do you folks do for a living? I don't post much in the threads that actually interest me because I can't ever keeep up with the discussion.
 

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Posted by Alai's Echo (Member # 3219) on :
 

quote:

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I just want to give a little different perspective on LDS culture.

The Mormon church is not a Utah church. It is not an American church. There are more LDS members worldwide outside of the United States than inside of it. In America, there are more members outside of Utah than in it. There are more Mormons in California than in Utah.

The majority of LDS kids grow up outside of large LDS communities. The majority of LDS kids do not attend church-sponsored Universities.

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quote:

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The truth is, Utah Mormons and culture are, to non-LDS, the biggest example of the LDS church in s single, concentrated form.

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quote:

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As much as it may annoy many LDS, Utah is simply the quickest, easiest, loudest, and most visible example of the LDS church that exists, for better or worse.

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quote:

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So, basically, "The truth is hard and stereotypes are easy, so deal."

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Yeah, but you still get to whine about it, so everybody wins.

[ June 25, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
*grin* Yeah. *pat pats stereotypers*
 

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Posted by Alai's Echo (Member # 3219) on :
 
Nice to hear there are statistics, but whatis being done about them?

quote:

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So, basically, "The truth is hard and stereotypes are easy, so deal."

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No, the truth is that groups are always characterized by their loudest and most prominent members, and it seems the LDS here want to only be judged by the best sections, while pointing out the largest singular clumps is considered inflammatory and untrue. As far as I've seen here, no such outrage is made every time such characterizations are made outside of the LDS culture. Instead, it's only unfair when it is done with the single largest group affiliation here on Hatrack. Or, can you show examples to show otherwise? I am willing to be convinced, but since being here, that's all I've seen (along with overt moderation removal of statements made by non-LDS about LDS matters on more than one occasion).

In other words, you reap what you sow as a group, not as individuals who are connected to a group.
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 


Well, we have missionaries out there proselyting. What else do you want?
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 

quote:

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No, the truth is that groups are always characterized by their loudest and most prominent members

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quote:

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And you think that should be perpetuated and encouraged?

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quote:

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I offered other examples that occur here often enough, and are never addressed.

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I must have missed that....

I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone would approve of this behavior in any direction.

Edit: Ok, found it now. Well, you're right, usually the ones to protest are the members of the group. If there were more Baptists and Islams here, I'm sure we'd be hearing from them about it. And we would all duck our heads and apologize. The children's playing got out of hand.

[ June 25, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
OMG. *sigh*

I'm not a Mormon, and I don't play one on TV.

However, I have met very many SPECIFIC Mormons that I have liked VERY much, beginning with several of the missionaries that visited us for over a year. Of the original pair, one was the nicest person I ever met-- really personable and understanding. The other was a total jerk, of the I'm-right-and-you're-stupid-just-because variety.

But of all the 'home grown' (as opposed to converted) Mormons I've known long enough to get a feel for them, that one jerk was the only one. Now, maybe the Hatrackian element has something to do with the general tolerance that most of the Mormons I have met have had for my very not-Mormon ways, but still.

Maybe certain aspects of Mormon culture suck, but I think that can be said of any relatively insular group. Even 'Jatraqueros'.
 

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Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
 
The issue has been objected to when used to describe: liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, Catholics, Jews, Christians, Muslims . . .

And that's in the last month. I think the one being selective here is you.
 

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Posted by Alai's Echo (Member # 3219) on :
 
Beverly, check out the Moore threads, pretty much any thread discussing Bush, the recent gun control thread, and whenever there is discussion on the Iraq war and other War on Terror discussions. It happens quite regularly, and often without a peep to point out the mischaracterization.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
We just need to go around insulting more Hindus, that will solve the problem!

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Sorry, hon, I rarely visit those threads. My hands are clean.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

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Yeah, but you're stuck listening to me complain about it.

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I like listening to you complain. It means us religious folk are still doing something right.

quote:

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Beverly, check out the Moore threads, pretty much any thread discussing Bush, the recent gun control thread, and whenever there is discussion on the Iraq war and other War on Terror discussions. It happens quite regularly, and often without a peep to point out the mischaracterization.

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I can only participate in so many threads.

Dagonee
Edit: In other words, if you want to raise a peep about such doings, raise it.

[ June 25, 2004, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
a lot of time scout troops are tied to one church or another. I was in a scout troop based in my Presbyterian Church when I was young...and as far as I know all of the leaders of the troop were members of the church. I think the Methodist church that I am now a member of has a troop as well…though I am not completely sure.

It would not surprise me to find that some Mormon churches are tied to troops as well
 

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Posted by Mockingbird (Member # 5640) on :
 
Olivetta, I'm responding to your post way back when:

quote:

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All five of them (one a former eagle scout) said they had been molested in Scouts. They told her, "Whatever you do, keep little Micheal out of Scouts." So she did.

And really, would Boyscouts seem as attractive an activity to any parent after that story?

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I'm a Cub Scout den leader, and the amount of effort that the Scouting organization is now putting into anti-abuse is really something:

*When boys get their Bobcat badge at the very start, they have to work through an anti-abuse booklet with a parent. The booklet is included in every Cub Scout manual.
*Once a year, they have a Pack meeting dealing with abuse issues; recognition, prevention, etc. Parents are required to attend with boys.
*Two adult Den leaders are required to be at every Cub Scout activity, or it is cancelled.

My recollection is that a criminal background check is also now required of every Cub Scout leader. I could be wrong here, though....

I imagine that the same is true of the Boy Scout organization proper (Cubs is for boys ages 7 or 8 to 11; Boy Scouts is thereafter). Times have changed, and a lot of organizations are taking steps to prevent abuse that wouldn't have been thinkable a generation ago.

Not that this means everything will always be okay, but I wouldn't hold your boy out of Cub Scouts for this reason alone. Make sure they follow the guidelines, and stay alert to anything odd ... but you could say that about a lot of things our kids do. I have 3 young boys, and the older two are having a great time in Cub Scouts. (Okay, we're LDS and in an LDS troop, but still.)

And on the main topic, at least in my experience, while Scouting has a strong religious undercurrent generally, I haven't seen anything I'd consider proselytizing in nature. We say prayers at the beginning and end of meetings. We talk about moral principals generally (required as part of the Cub Scout Achievements). We often meet in church buildings. That's it, as far as I can think of. ...Actually, I've been holding den meetings in my home, but that may change next month when my Wolf Den (currently 6 boys) will have triplets joining us. Wish me luck.

[ June 26, 2004, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
My agressively Catholic family is quite tickled at the following story (it gets retold again and again at family gatherings). It makes me wince.

At one of the big annual overnight events supervised by my Uncle (Den master? is that the right word?), some of the boys were whispering after lights out. He woke them all up and got them on their knees, saying "If you're going to be up in the middle of the night talking, you might as well be talking to God." Then he lead them through an hour of Hail Marys, Our Fathers, and the rest of the decades of the rosary.

Those that weren't Catholic still had to say it, even those who had been sound asleep at the time of the talking. Now they all get warned at the start of the retreat that "If you're going to be up in the middle of the night talking, you might as well be talking to God." [read: my God]

It's become a bit of a joke, and my Uncle is delighted to relate that some of his former Scouts come up to him at other gatherings and say it was interesting to learn how to say the "Hail Mary."

(But what else is a polite young 23-yr old supposed to say when he's dragged to the community fishbake by his folks who insist that he "go talk to your old Scout leader, see, Jack's right over there. Go on, it'll mean so much to him.")

Ewwww. I can't imagine what it would like to be a young Jewish man who's made to pray on his knees "Hail Mary, full of grace ... Holy Mary, mother of God." Frankly, it sounds like an outrageous abuse of power. This wouldn't be an issue unless there was a policy of "we welcome non-Catholics, too" -- i.e., if it were a den restricted to Catholics -- but my understanding is that such exclusion would not be allowed. (Is this true, katharina?)

Yes, you are welcome to join with us, non-believers, but you must pray to our God.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

[ June 26, 2004, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Man, that's an EXTREMELY ew story, Doc! Any parent who raised a child who would've told that guy to go to hell did something right, sez me.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Interesting. If God is so welcome at scouts, I don't get what the purpose of the Royal Rangers is?
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
What ARE the Royal Rangers?
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
http://royalrangers.ag.org/

The Assemblies of God church I went to as a li'l Storm Saxon (the one you see right off of I-4 in downtown Orlando) had this organization, which to me looks exactly like the scouts, but they are upfront about using it as a ministry for Christ.

I guess my question, now that I think about it, is, is there anything in the Scouts that says you *can't* use them as a pronounced religious organization? Like, all these people in this thread are saying that they would never proselytize, but let's say they did. Would this be o.k. with the Scouts or not? And, again, if it is, I wonder what hte purpose of hte Royal Rangers is?
 

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Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
 
I'm sure it happened, and I'm sure it does happen CT. Does that mean that its how things are expected to work? No. Its the same way with molestation story.

There will always be people like that in volunteer run organizations. I really don't see how to prevent that. However you have two choices when dealing with it. Try to get him removed or his behaviors changed. (There are channels for this very purpose.) Or go to another troop that doesn't have his stupidity. In cases like this it is the responsiblity of the parents to make the stand. No way is this man going to listen to the elementary schoolers in his charge.

One data point does not a statistic make.
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
No, I meant nothing in general about the Scouts by telling the story, and I apologize if such was insinuated. It's just another flaming example of the inappropriateness of some members of my family.

quote:

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One data point does not a statistic make.

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What statistical point did you believe I was trying to make? It was just a story.

In fact, I noted that I believe the BSA would not allow religious belief as a tenet for acceptance in a particular troop, and then I asked Kat for clarification.

This wasn't a point about Scouts in general, HE. It was a point about how Scouts was IMO misused by my family member. And, as I am in a crabby mood altogether, I get a particularly nasty tweak from crabbing about my family, some of whom are utter ratfinks (but the distribution has nothing to do with Scouting, BTW).

[ June 26, 2004, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
 

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Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
 
I think I am a bitter, bitter woman.
 

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Posted by Mockingbird (Member # 5640) on :
 
Okay, I have another thought/question regarding abuse that occurred to me after I posted my response to Olivetta last night (and yes, it was very late, even by my standards). At the time I was just thinking about the potential for abuse by adult leaders, but can anyone speak to the possibility of molestation by other Scouts? I don't see how it could happen in Cub Scouts under normal circumstances (no unsupervised time together). But I guess regular Scouts could be different.

Edited to add: Cub Scout overnight campouts are in fact permitted (you even get an Arrow point for them).

[ June 28, 2004, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Mockingbird ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Very disturbing about the molestation, and interesting about the Catholic leading the others in prayer.

I know that at our district-wide Round Table (Cub Scouts) meetings, there is always an invocation offered at the begining along with the flag ceremony and other stuff. Our district leaders tend to not be LDS, but are very active in their own chruches. Sometimes the person leading the prayer is LDS, sometimes not.

I wonder how common prayer is in Boy Scouts in other areas.
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
CT, I think I'm going to reconsider my dislike for sour candies ;)_
 

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Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
 
(This is katharina writing - Coccinelle's back from Europe!! And Karl, she's going to write you an apology because she didn't read any of the e-mails from me after the first whining "I miss you!" one, so she didn't see the thread or the request. I'm sorry.)

quote:

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My recollection is that a criminal background check is also now required of every Cub Scout leader.

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quote:

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Frankly, it sounds like an outrageous abuse of power. This wouldn't be an issue unless there was a policy of "we welcome non-Catholics, too" -- i.e., if it were a den restricted to Catholics -- but my understanding is that such exclusion would not be allowed. (Is this true, katharina?)

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CT, that is an AWFUL story. I don't know all the BSA regulations, but I don't think you are allowed to refuse entry to boys for just about any reason, especially their religion. There are different awards for the different religions, but membership in the troop is not allowed to be restricted. So, yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry.
 

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