This is topic The breastfeeding survival guide (was: Does a woman breastfeeding in public...) in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
I was sitting in the waiting room at our family doctor's office the other day. There was a man and woman sitting across the room with their @ year old child. Their child got hungry, so dad pulled a bottle out of his pocket and handed it to mom so she could feed the kid.
A little while later, Thomas decided he needed to eat. I ran my hand up under my t-shirt, unhooked the front of one side of my bra, put a spit-rag up under my shirt to catch "runoff", and then put Thomas up there. No one could see anything, and for good measure (because I know some people are uncomfortable with nursing in general!) I put a baby blanket over Thomas and up over my shoulder.
After a few pointed glances, the man leaned over and whispered to his wife, who looked at me and blushed. Then he got up and went to the receptionist's desk. He told her that I was "flaunting" my bare breasts, and could she please ask me to stop. She stood up, saw what I was doing, and told the man, "She's feeding her baby. You can't see anything, and there are laws that protect what she's doing. Please be patient and the doctor will be with you soon."
Now, I don't "flaunt" anything. I'm very careful to cover up when out in public, but I see nothing wrong with sitting on a park bench, in a restaurant, or wherever I am to feed my child. I've even fed a baby while shopping (yes, walking down the aisles and all) at Wal-mart.
When I see women breastfeeding in public, I smile. I think it's great! And I've even said so to a particularly young mother I saw breastfeeding her baby at the Sears Portrait Studio.
How do you feel about this? Why?
[ June 28, 2004, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Boon ]
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Heh. Gotta love how small a man's... ego must be to get nervous about breastfeeding. How prudish can you get?
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
I've seen hundreds of women feeding their babies this way (including my wife), but have yet to get a good view of the woman's breast (no matter how hard I try). All you ever see is the kid's bald pate.
What kind of exposure is that? Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'm only uncomfortable if I can see something. Other than that, of course not.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
It's always nice to see a mother feeding her child with a breast rather than a bottle. My mother never even used a blanket for my two sisters, so I only realised it was odd when my mother said she had sometimes had people ask her to do it in the bathroom or something. If everyone treated it as perfectly normal, which of course it is, no one would ever think it wasn't.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I thought it was illegal to serve food in a bathroom. Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I have no problem's with it, but once I remember sitting in my mom's office at a building on IU's campus, and a student came in to ask if there was anyway they could ask the professor to not breast feed her baby while teaching a class.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Huh. Out of interest, why would it make you uncomfortable if you could see the breast? Breastfeeding's hardly erotic.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I'm totally used to it. While on my mission to Brazil, breast-feeding was considered completely normal. They don't even try to hide anything. They'll first expose their breast, and then pick up the baby.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I think the man was a churl. And I agree that it's great for women to breastfeed, and that they should do so wherever the need arises.
But yes, it does make me uncomfortable. I'll be un-PC and admit to this. I would never complain about it, because the issue is mine, not yours. But it makes me self-conscious. If I look away, I'm self-conciously looking away. If I do not, if I try to act natural, I'm still self-conscious, because it's there, and it's hard not to notice, and I worry that someone will think that I'm trying to sneak glances.
I believe that our nudity taboos are, as I said about gender roles in another thread, societally constructed. But believing that intellectually does not make me immune from them.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
There are different levels of taboo in different cultures. Here in America, breasts are a big deal and very sexual. Other cultures wonder why we make such a big deal about breasts when they focus more on, say, a woman's legs or posterior.
In other cultures, taboos about breastfeeding is pretty relaxed. Porter talks about being a missionary in Brazil teaching a young mother who lifted up her shirt exposing her bare breast, reached over and grabbed the child, and then placed the child on her breast. He was a bit surprised at the time. Apparently that is pretty normal for that part of the world.
*Imagines the man's reaction if Boon had done that*
Edit: Too slow! Porter beat me to it.
[ June 25, 2004, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
Spending more than a year among the folk of Honduras and Guatemala erased any hint of embarassment or discomfort I might have felt at seeing a stranger breastfeeding in public.
I think that breastfeeding is so important that we should do everything we can to encourage it, including making sure mothers feel free to do it whereever and whenever necessary and convenient.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
A lot of people, even women, won't meet your eyes while you're breastfeeding. I've always wondered why. Is it because they are embarrased? Or is it something else?
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That happened at my college TOO. It's distracting if you're teaching. I mean, I'd object if a male professor brought in his kid and was bottle feeding it at the same time as teaching. Distraction.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Some really good comments on this subject from a Mr. Mom character are in Forty Signs of Rain by Kim Stanley Robinson.
(My KSR plug for the week...) Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Does a woman breastfeeding in public make you uncomfortable?
Only if it puts my neck at an awkward position.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
quote:But yes, it does make me uncomfortable. I'll be un-PC and admit to this. I would never complain about it, because the issue is mine, not yours. But it makes me self-conscious. If I look away, I'm self-conciously looking away. If I do not, if I try to act natural, I'm still self-conscious, because it's there, and it's hard not to notice, and I worry that someone will think that I'm trying to sneak glances.
My reaction exactly, Icarus. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but it still weirds me out a bit. But I would never complain about it unless the woman really was flaunting her breast.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I could see people complaing if the woman whips them out and shouts, "Look, milkjugs." But she is feeding her child. Besides, in NYC at a certain march some of the women are topless.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Cards to hand out. Good idea?
Posted by Garick (Member # 6619) on :
enh. Not so much that it makes me uncomfortable, but I will look away because I feel as if the woman and child should have some privacy.
If she's comfortable breastfeeding in public, go for it, I say. Not that the breast is exposed.. but I'm sure we all wish it were. (and perhaps the man as well.. that's why he was uncomfortable with it because his wife was there and he couldn't ogle)
But then.. I know I'd be perfectly happy if I could run around naked on hot days.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Yes, it makes me uncomfortable, and then I get doubly uncomfortable because I think I should be cool with it. After all, I have a 'breastfeeding.com' bumper sticker on my car and everything!
Hmf.
I breastfed The Boy for almost a year (he weaned himself, the little booger!), and yet, when I see someone feeding their own baby, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't think it's gross, or inappropriate, I just don't know where to look, I suppose.
I wish that MORE moms would breastfeed in public, so I could become more comfortable with it. Yes, selfishly, I believe it should be done for my benefit.
Oh yeah, and good for the baby, yadda yadda .
My best breastfeeding story: breastfeeding my kid on a cross-country trip (from Arizona to Alaska) in a moving vehicle. He was in his car seat, too!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Cool, Boon. I think what that man did was wrong. I don't know if handing out cards will help or not, but I'm all for getting people to think about this.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I made a conscious effort, years back, to learn how to look at a woman without automatically scoping her neckline. I can't say it's easy, but it is amazing how well women respond to men who see their eyes first.
If I see someone breastfeeding I'll smile, but I won't stare and I won't jerk my head away as if I caught them doing something embarassing. If the woman seems uncomfortable or even just distant I'll compliment the child and then give them their privacy.
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
I think I'll save the cards, though I don't know if I'd use them. No one has ever objected to me nursing a baby in public.
So, no, I'm not uncomfortable with it. I think it's fine and dandy.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Same here, Jexx. I have breastfed and yet I would have never done it right out in public unless I had no other choice, and it creeped me out a bit when other women did it. But as long as I'm not seeing a breast, I know that it's my fault I'm bothered.
BUT
I have seen the breasts before, and the women made no attempt to be sneaky or modest about it at all, and I think that's really unnecessary. It's quite possible to breastfeed very discreetly, and I think it's kinda rude if you don't. Since breasts are considered private by most Americans, and walking around with them bared constitutes indecent exposure, it would make sense that showing yours would make some people uncomfortable. It should be avoided unless you have no other choice, which almost never happens. There is ALWAYS the option of facing the wall, which has no negative affects on your baby, and he can still get his nourishment that way.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
*Removes his tasteless joke just before hitting post*
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I had to breastfeed in public several times, but I always tried to be discreet about it. Usually, if I knew I was going to be out for a long time with either baby, I'd wear a big floppy shirt and bring a big cloth diaper to put over my shoulder.
Once, I was in a crowded airport with Robert. An older couple sitting next to me had struck up a conversation with me about my beautiful baby. Robert got fussy, and I said that I needed to feed him. The grandmother type graciously offered to get his bottle out of my diaper bag. She positively BLANCHED when I told her there was no bottle, that I breastfed. I took my baby and all our carry on stuff into the ladies' room to feed him. Because I was embarrassed.
It was HORRIBLE. There was no place to sit with back support. My back ached and I had a headache when it was over.
I NEVER did that again.
That guy was just squicked by it, not because he should be, but because our society has most people more comfortable with images of breasts used to sell beer than with the idea of what breasts were meant to do. Go figger, but don't let it bother YOU.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I personally have not felt very comfortable nursing in public, depending on the situation. I don't like the idea of making people uncomfortable. But if it were a widely accepted practice in this culture, I wouldn't hesitate to do it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Jexx and Ic,
I am another pro-breastfeeding-in-public person who feels uncomfortable. Hard to admit, but there you have it, and Icarus described ny feelings exactly.
When I breastfed my kids, I WANTED to be all cool about public feeding, but I was totally shy and uncomfortable.
Even though I feel uncomfortable, I consider it MY issue, not the mother's, and I want people to give the baby breast milk, wherever and whenever.
(well, not so sure about the classroom)
Posted by Mockingbird (Member # 5640) on :
I'm fine with women breastfeeding in public places, as long as it's unobtrusive (i.e., they try to cover up as best they reasonably can). I can't even imagine going there while teaching a class, but I did once nurse a baby while getting my hair cut (under the plastic poncho thing). I'd prefer not to get a shot of exposed breast, but that's me personally.
Frankly, I'm more comfortable seeing other women breastfeeding in public than I was trying to do it myself. The idea of exposing myself really bothered me. But some breastfed babies are, shall we say, very bottle-averse, and so there isn't always a good alternative to gritting your teeth and taking the chance of exposing your assets to the world. Other than dealing with a hungry, screaming baby, of course.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: Frankly, I'm more comfortable seeing other women breastfeeding in public than I was trying to do it myself
Exactly.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Heh. Once, when Robert was 3 months old, we went to Chicago. Ron had to be there for a convention, and it gave me a chance to visit old friends and show off our little bundle. On the first flight, I sat next to a pilot who was being sent to the connecting airport to fly another plane. He helped me carry stuff to my connecting flight and everything. It was neat.
On to the funny breastfeeding story... We went out to eat with our buddy Nash (who later came to live with us a while here), at a little outdoor cafe. That was nice. Then we walked back to the hotel room and sat around talking. It was a suite, so I went into the bedroom and got everything 'set up' for the breastfeeding. I had the cloth diaper pinned to my shoulder and spread out, careful to be modest.
I rejoined the group in the sitting room (Ron, Nash and one of Ron's co-workers). During a lull in the conversation, Nash asked what the 'tent' was for. *snort* I blushed and Ron looked uncomfortable, then Ron's slightly older (and more experienced parenting-wise) co-worker said, "She's breastfeeding, DUH" or some such. Then Nash was embarrassed. He was fascinated by Robert and had wanted to look at him more, but then felt... awkward about having been trying to see him 'in the tent.'
It was amusing, but maybe you just had to be there.
[ June 25, 2004, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I don't blame him. Breastfeeding can get pretty in-tents.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Pa-dum-PUM!
(BTW, Thanks for helping with the file)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
What a let-down this thread is!
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Wonder how long we can milk this joke?
O: De nada.
[ June 25, 2004, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
We've done this before, if mammary serves.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Anything worth doing is worth doing again. That's why there are two of those.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:I made a conscious effort, years back, to learn how to look at a woman without automatically scoping her neckline. I can't say it's easy, but it is amazing how well women respond to men who see their eyes first.
OOG. YA. Me lern be less pig.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Not even that, really. It's just that if I talked to a woman and the first thng they saw was my glance jerking up from chest height, somewhere in her mind I was at least temporarily filed under "Men. Hmph." I dislike being filed.
Now, if my looking can't embarass her or if looking is obviously expected, I'm there for the day with a packed lunch...
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
I breastfed both my girls - Amanda to 18 months, Cayla past 2 years. On buses and elevated trains in Chicago, at the zoo (Lincoln Park), and, yes, in the back seat of the car while DH was driving and Cayla was in her car seat.
I wouldn't breastfeed in the chapel at church, but that's what the Mother's Room is for. And, if you want a good place to do it when you are shopping, go to the fitting rooms - usually a seat there and it's not as smelly as a bathroom.
I used a baby blanket to cover up. I applaud the receptionist who gave that man a simple fact of life in what sounds like a polite but firm manner. Yay for breastfeeding. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I have breastfed infants all over UCLA's campus (there used to be several women's restrooms that had outer lounges, so I could get a little privacy, or there was a professor who let me use her office -- but when those were not convenient, I just used seating wherever), on the bus to UCLA, in video stores, bookstores, libraries . . . and trust me, the only one who ever saw anything I usually keep covered was the baby. (A receiving blanket with a length of bias tape stitched across one end (for ties) makes a WONDERFUL cover-up.)
When I had a baby of an age that they refused to nurse under cover, then I took cover instead. But that's an issue of my modesty -- I'm the one who covers her knees and elbows, after all. I'm not uncomfortable nursing without a cover-up in front of another woman -- unless she seems uncomfortable.
I occasionally got looks or comments, but only rarely.
As far as seeing other women breastfeed, my general response is to make eye contact, smile, and then let her focus on her baby.
However, as far as nursing WHILE TEACHING A CLASS??? I think that's inappropriate. I don't think you should be nursing while driving a car either! (Although, I have, like jexx, nursed a baby in a moving car, with them buckled in.) Both teaching and driving deserve full attention -- and the baby should get some too. I would have some concern with a student nursing a baby during class, but much less. (How do you take notes? )
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Most of the time, my babies hated nursing under cover, so on the occasions I did nurse in public, they were constantly fighting my efforts to stay modest. That didn't make things easier!
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
How cool is Icky? (And Jon Boy, etc.)
I agree with them.
(That's what makes them cool, and all, don't ya know. )
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
First time I saw this happen, I was uncomfortable. The poor woman probably thought she was finding a nice quiet spot under difficult circumstances. Turned out she'd chosen one of the main stairwells in the Smithsonian Institution's American History Museum in D.C. And as I recall she didn't really have a way to effectively cover up.
Ah well.
Living in NYC and traveling a lot, I soon had grown accustomed to public breastfeeding in the abstract. I didn't really care about public breastfeeding one way or the other until I was out at a favorite restaurant with a woman whose child was older and not yet weaned. He was fooling around and fell backwards off the chair, bumping his head. He started screaming for "mee mee" and his mom just let him suckle there in the restaurant also sans any sort of coverup. I've had a nice dialog about this incident with Ela and have come to see it in a somewhat different light, but I still have to admit to being uncomfortable at the time it happened. In my defense, I don't think my negative reaction had anything to do with being "male" and thus not understanding the needs and the mother/child dynamic, etc. My wife at the time was SERIOUSLY ticked off about it too, and this was her friend...
But basically, I've simply decided that I will not be bothered by public breastfeeding. If a woman is breastfeeding, she pretty much has established herself as the source of nutrition and comfort to that child. And until fully weaned, a kid is going to demand in increasingly more demonstrative terms until he/she gets the breast, no?
So, unless we want to do something really stupid like make women feel inferior for breastfeeding their children, or outlaw the act altogether, I think we should just accept the fact that it is going to take place in public with some frequency.
And, ultimately, I'd rather have women breastfeeding than have kids be denied the food or comfort they need at that moment, ESPECIALLY in public. Mainly because I'm not a big fan of screaming in public places.
Back to the original post...In this churl's defense, is it possible that this might be the first time he'd ever encountered a woman breastfeeding in public? He got an education that day, no? Perhaps in future, he'll have a different attitude and maybe even spread the word among his friends...
It's at least possible, I think.
Not everyone is born with appropriate sensitivities and many many people in this country were raised in very puritanical environments. Besides that, I believe that a fairly large number of people in the US were not breastfed, have never been around a nursing mother, and were probably raised to be vaguely uncomfortable about even the word "breast."
That doesn't excuse his attempt to have the nurse do a smackdown. Idiot! But still, the guy probably was raised to think of the human body as something "dirty." He's got some growing up to do, no doubt.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
In answer to the question, absolutely not. Formula manufacturers would like you to be embarrassed by it, and so would other businesses that sell bottle paraphernalia and formula - this has been going on since the 1800's when companies first started marketing formula for babies. (Really - you all need to check out The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer. It's an excellent read!)
In answer to my grandmother's snotty question (when Nathan was 6 months old, after approximately 6 months of stupid cow jokes and general harassment from my family to start bottlefeeding because breastfeeding is just "icky" and "perverted" ), I promised that Nathan would be completely weaned at least by the time he went to college. (Edited to add: )
AND I was able to study quite effectively with a nursing child in one arm and note taking in the other - it was a great transferable skill when I started grantwriting for a non-prof child care and would frequently bundle and rock babies while I wrote grants. With a 90% success rate, I might add. Maybe we should rock the babies while working more often?
[ June 25, 2004, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: Shan ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
That man was such an idiot! I breastfed both of my kiddos in public both times, and luckily never had to deal with anyone like that. I usually used a baby blanket to cover up, but even without one, there is usually a way of bunching your shirt up so that nothing is visible. I'm glad so many more women are breastfeeding now. When I breastfed Boy Opera, I was the only one I knew who did it. It doesn't bother me to see someone else breastfeed. When I see it, I just smile and remember what a special time that was for me and my kids.
space opera
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
boon,
why do you think it might make anyone feel uncomfortable?
fallow
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Maybe because of that man's reaction? Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
is your name Boon? Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Sweetie pie - did you read the first post?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
is your name Boon?
why do I hafta repeat myself?
Posted by Brinestone (Member # 5755) on :
Breastfeeding in public? That's nothin'. Once, while I was working at Boston Market, a woman changed her baby's diaper on one of the tables in the eating area! Posted by Jon Boy (Member # 4284) on :
Ew. Can anyone say "health code"?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
no shit.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
A man peeked under my mother-in-law's blanket when she was feeding her baby once. They were both very surprised. I think he just thought he was going to see a sleeping baby.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
Once, when my sister-in-law was nursing in public, a woman asked quite wistfully if she could watch. We gathered that her babies were grown (now I wonder if perhaps they were GONE)and that breastfeeding meant something very special to her. My sis-in-law was comfortable with this request, but I don't know if I would have been.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
fallow: To be honest, I don't know.
If the man referenced in my first post could SEE anyting, I could understand his discomfort. But I take precautions so that all you can see is a blanket over an obviously horizontal baby. That's it.
I'm not uncomfortable feeding my baby anytime, anywhere. I cover up because I know it makes other people uncomfortable. I'm trying to understand why.
PSI: That actually happened to me once. A lady "just wanted to see the baby" I was feeding at the time. She got an eyeful, turned red, and apologized. I laughed and told her she hadn't seen anything she didn't have herself.
Has anyone else noticed that even the most tolerant mothers get uncomfortable seeing a breastfeeding toddler over a certain age? Worldwide, the average age for weaning is 4.2 years. So why are we (Americans, or westerners, or whatever) so squicked? I don't get it. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Nathan weaned at 4.
And frankly, nursing him through the terrible threes was the only way that we survived them.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Thank you for your response, Boon.
Do you think it could just be merely that breastfeeding is to a degree (more or less depending on where you live) a little outside the norm in terms of everyday behavior?
not that is by any means, unnatural. just not something you see every 5 minutes of every day?
fallow
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
If that were the case, why would other breastfeeding women be uncomfortable seeing another woman doing it in public?
Why does it make people in OUR society uncomfortable, but not people in, say, Guatemala?
Why is breastfeeding seen as "outside the norm" but feeding an infant from a hard plastic bottle is acceptable?
Why is it more acceptable to feed a human infant cow's milk products than human milk?
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Oh, good questions, Boon! Please read the politics of breastfeeding . . . you'll love it!
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
boon,
good questions. that's kinda what I meant about the "generality" implicit in your question. but more to the point, why DO YOU think this is?
fallow
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Personally I think it is because sucking on a breast has such strong sexual undercurrents. I think some men don't understand that just as their whaang has two very different functions, so do the breasts of women.
As for other women, I think those same taboos just carry over to them to some extent.
Dude, if someone asked if they could watch me breastfeed my baby, I would be creeped out. That's just weird. I guess I am not completely immuned from the cultural stigmas myself.
My husband says if the baby is old enough to ask for it by name, they are too old. I do think there is a sense of weirdness in our culture about a speaking-age child breastfeeding. Maybe we feel that their "innocence" has gone somewhat, and that they are no longer "pure" enough to enjoy that priviledge.
I remember in the Philippines a girl my age telling me how as a teenager when she was really upset and in need of comfort, her mother would let her suck on her non-milk-producing teat for comfort. Now that is just weird. Of course, in the Philippines it is also very common and acceptable for mother's to play with their baby/toddler son's penises. Peni? Penisi? Different cultures....
[ June 26, 2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
is your name Boon?
not to wear that thin, Bev, but I didn't ask you and you aren't answering the question I (or Boon) posed. stop flaunting. *sheesh*
fallow
Posted by Misha McBride (Member # 6578) on :
I breast fed my youngest and I must admit I found it hard to do that in public, partially because of body shyness. (The other reason was that my milk was "bountiful" when Rhiannon cried. Got very messy. ) Whenever I did I made sure to cover up with a blanket and all. Some people were cool with it and thought it was wonderful, but I did get a few looks... enough to make me not want to do it publicly. I usually tried to keep some expressed milk in a cooler for those moments.
If I had another baby I'd breastfeed again and probably not be so nervous about it. I'm a lot older and less inclined to care what people think of me. Plus its sooo much better than formula- not just for health, but for your pocketbook.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*hands on hips*
I wasn't talkin' to YOU fallow, I was talkin' to Boon. (And anyone else who would listen.)
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Boon's a "dude"?
*feels way Way WAAAYY out of element now*
*suckles on binky*
fallow
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
fallow, shove it. This is a public open forum. If someone else gives their two cents, they are allowed with hearing about it from you.
Edit: not in reference to your post directly above mine, but the one prior to that.
[ June 26, 2004, 01:51 AM: Message edited by: HollowEarth ]
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
fallow: not to be rude, but that's not really the direction I was hoping for.
The questions I'd like the answers to are:
When you see a woman breastfeeding her baby in public, does it make you uncomfortable?
Why or why not?
I don't really want "societal" answers. I want personal reactions.
Thanks. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
No, Jenny is the dude.
*watches fallow sucking on fingers*
Are you in need of a lactating woman?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*thinks*
I don't think seeing a woman breastfeeding modestly in public makes me uncomfortable, but I remember my sister breastfeeding in front of me before I had any children and the sight of bare breast sticking out of bra made me uncomfortable. I was mad at myself because I thought it ought not to.
I think that when I see a woman modestly breastfeeding in public, I am impressed that she is brave enough to do something I am hesitant to do. I mentally congratulate her.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
boon,
May I?
If I read your post correctly it goes as thus "I am a spectacle? what is wrong with the audience that makes me a spectacle?"
no?
fallow
PS *suckles on Bev's fingers*
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*is mildly disturbed*
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
you're in for 5%, don't sweat it. not now.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
fallow, I thought it was more along the lines of "I don't see a reason for him to be so upset. Maybe if I get more input, I'll understand better." Hence, my questions. Care to answer them?
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Boon,
It's 2 pages into your thread and I reckon you can answer your own question better than anyone else can.
Feedback is key, though, to be sure.
For the record: I personally don't find it uncomfortable, but it is outside the daily routine. When it occurs in my vicinity, I am inclined to STARE and wonder. Positively. I don't usually applaud, though.
fallow
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Nope, doesn't make me uncomfortable. Then again, I've spent entire months focusing on helping babies latch onto the teat, and I got quite comfortable with grabbing other women's private parts.
As part of my job, I have also watched young men urinate to assess the stream, done various rectal exams and disimpactions, peered into the secret silent world of the ear (and dug around thereof), and been involved with all those various areas we keep private.
The acts don't bother me, the parts don't bother me. However, I do get my red flags ticked off when someone is unusually focused on something (or unusually focused at an unusual time) which in itself is normal. That is, if a female friend were to discuss her breasts and breastfeeding in extensive and graphic detail in front of my husband, out of context of the situation, and despite the very big vibes of "please don't" in the room, that would bother me. That would bother me much much more than just the humdrum breastfeeding that goes on every day around me.
I'd be wondering about any other agendas she might have, and I'd be worried about any personality pathologies she might have. However, that would be far from the case of talking about breasts/breastfeeding in a relevant context (such as, say, here at Hatrack, where we have the lovely local expert Ela ) or just, well, doing what needed to be done quite matter-of-fact-ly.
Does that make sense, Boon?
[ June 26, 2004, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I'd have to echo Icarus's comments on feeling a bit uncomfortable about how to act and where to look or not look. I would add that I have also noticed a difference in my reaction contingent upon how well I know the nursing mother. I've seen my sister breastfeed her kids and was unconcerned. I've seen strangers do it and may have been a tad bit discomfitted but could just look elsewhere and move on. The few times I've been truly weirded out were with friends and or neighbors. I specifically remember a neighbor breastfeeding in her home when we were visiting. I kept casting about for something to look at. My eyes skimming past the mother's face and feeling adrift in an etiquette sea. Even tho it unnerved me I have always felt like it was my hangup and I've never thought poorly of any mother practicing this perfectly natural bit of instincitve behaviour.
[ June 26, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: punwit ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
As for older children nursing, I am reminded of "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn." Ha ha. There was a little boy named Gussy who would not leave the nip. Finally, his mother painted her breast with a scary face, and when she bared it for him the next time, it shocked him out of the demand. Thereafter, it was referred to as "giving the Gussy."
One thing to consider is that poor people have always breastfed.(I am talking historically now) Wealthy women would often have poor women feed their babies(wetnurses). I would love to read "The Politics of Breastfeeding," and might go get it.
I think it is much more common since the 70's that women breastfeed, but my parents' and grandparents' generations were more about the bottle. At least that is how it seems to me.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I would like to ask all the mothers on this post that breastfed a question. I am planning to breastfeed. I am also planning to stay at home to be "on tap" as it were pretty much 24/7. Do I still need a breast pump? My sister (who did not breastfeed) keeps insisting I'll need one and tells me I need to get an expensive electric one because a hand pump will be too hard. I can't imagine I'll need a pump except in extreme cases and don't care if I get a hand cramp from the hand operated one. Help! I've never done this and need your advice. What seemed like forever to wait at the beginning is starting to seem like no time at all. I just want to be prepared and November 5th seems like it will be here next week! Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I have a very hard time with the disgust that people have for breastfeeding. And I think it is different from the shock from the first encounter of realizing what a woman is doing and feeling like a voyeur of this special moment. I can't quite put my finger on what the objection is. Even at its most "graphic" breastfeeding shows no more breast than a bikini would. I think it is more the nature of the act than the sexuality, but sexuality also seems to play a role.
I don't think the cards are the answer because most people don't have a problem with breastfeeding, its just they think women should be at home on their couches or in their rocking chairs with babe in arms.
Personally, I had thought not to use a cover because to me this is more obvious and prone to attract attention than not (hence the examples of peeking). I do have a sling which will most likely provide cover, though.
I have gotten several comments already from coworkers, asking me if I was going to be one of those women who "whips it out anywhere" and was very saddened. I also saw a woman with a sling feeding her baby in a corner and was going to approach her to ask how she liked her sling but she looked so uncomfortable that I thought it was best just to let her try to meld into the corner as best she could.
Don't know what my point is...guess I'm just rambling, but it is an issue that I am very concerned with.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
dawnmaria, Unless you are going to be away from the baby or want your husband to be able to bottlefeed, you should not "need" a pump at all.
I am planning on returning to work after three months and I have purchased a hand pump not an electric pump. I am fairly confident that it will work for me. Although it does require more effort than an electric, I think it is more portable, convenient and cheaper.
Ela provided me with some great information if you'd like more advice. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Dawn- if you think you will want to go out for a few hours by yourself, get a samll hand pump. If you are staying home the only reason you would need a big electric is if the baby has problems, in which case the LC at the hospital will rent you one.
For the OT- well ,I am in my 7th year of consecutive nursing (3rd child)(nursing as I type, in fact) and yes I have nursed everywhere. Even at work, where I run the church nursery and nurse while teaching the lessons. I was recently complimented on covering up well Wierd, I never really think about it. IN 7 years I have gotten one negative comment, but a few "Awww, I love to see a nursing baby " ones. I think the area where I live (Seattle area) does have statistically higher bf rates.
With a sling and a few rolled up dipes, you can nurse hands free. I have cooked meals with baby latched on.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Public breastfeeding does not bother me in the least. Both my children were breastfed (by my wife, not me) and she had to feed them in public occasionally, but was very discreet.
What does make me feel uncomfortable though is when someone is standing in public, talking very loudly into a cellphone, with no consideration of others who may not want to hear the conversation. That bugs me MUCHO!
CT, Not much grosses us out in the physical anymore... I enjoyed your descriptive analysis of your job's less enticing points.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
The cellphone analogy is an apt one, Alucard. I was trying to imagine what would give me the squickies about breastfeeding in public, and I think it would be along the lines of a stranger (apropos of nothing) loudly proclaiming "I am now breastfeeding my baby. He is working on attaching to my nipple, which is quite pert and firm."
That would be weird and creepy if it were out of context -- such as if it were not, say, in the context of the woman getting advice, but rather in the middle of Walmart.
Just breastfeeding? No problem. Breastfeeding without a cover? No problem. Talking about breastfeeding in the abstract? No problem.
Play-by-play for the audience? Okay, yeah, that would make me highly uncomfortable. I am not, appropriately, an audience -- to treat me as such would be to treat the breastfeeding as more than just delivering food to the baby. But then again, I would suffer the same discomfort (and similarly query the speaker's sanity) if they were to give me a verbal play-by of their body's inner attempts to squelch a burp.
Though, in the proper context (e.g., not in the middle of a formal dinner party, but rather during a role-playing game for which much sustenance had been consumed, and much hilarity abounding), that would be okay, too.
[ June 26, 2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
*hugs CT*
I remember when my friend Kathy came home from the hospital with her firstborn-- she called me at least 8 times between 4pm and 8pm. It was kind of funny.
Anyway, she had forgotten the breat pump they had given her at the hospital. As soon as her husband left to get it, she called me. Seems her baby had eaten all he wanted, and she was still so full it was painful. I had to talk her through expressing the milk by hand. That was fine, but I kind of had to think to remember, and I remember Ron giving me looks as I walked around with the phone in hand and the other hand on one of my breasts, trying to figure out how to describe something I'd done but never really had to talk about. It was quite funny. I kept trying not to laugh, because I knew my friend was in pain. But the situation was still funny
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(*hugs to Olivia )
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
How much pain are we talking here? Does it get less painful as the baby starts to nurse more? Heck, I am already in pain and I have 4 months until I have a use for these things! Is there any prep I can do so it's less painful? I haven't gotten that far in the books I am reading about breastfeeding. As it stands now I can barely stand my bra! I feel so ignorant. I thought this is natural. People have babies everyday. Yet everyday I am finding one more thing I hadn't thought about. Do you ever feel ready or competent to be a mom? Sorry for the whine. I am having a hormonal day. I looked at my husband over lunch and thought how I hope the baby has his eyes and burst into tears in the middle of the resturant. I assume thats normal, right. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:...I got quite comfortable with grabbing other women's private parts.
Now, THIS in public...
Now where did that out of context thread get to? Darnit!!!
LOL
Okay, the cell phone comment has me thinking of other things I've seen in public that make me far more uncomfortable than seeing a woman breastfeed. While living in NYC I saw:
1) Two male bums (and I do mean very smelly, very dirty people) giving mutual oral-genital stimulation on the subway.
2) Two young girls and a young man, all obviously VERY high on some drug, fondling each other's breasts and talking loudly about who would do what to whom over the next several months. Day by day account -- calendars were pulled out to make a record of who had which days. This was NOT nearly as tittilating as one might think. Especially since these drugged up kids totally lacked imagination. LOL
3) Peeing in public. Men and women. With and without removing their garments first. Um, yeah, it was basically everywhere in NYC when I lived there.
4) Public expectoration. Anywhere, anytime. Hawk up a "lugey" is always in fashion.
5) Chewing tobacco. Hey, you gotta do something with it when you're done, right? And how do you know when you're done anyway?
6) Heimlich manuever. Okay, it saves lives. But that dislodged food is a projectile. Many people find it difficult to return to eating after witnessing the Heimlich manuever in action. (at a minimum, they cut the food into smaller pieces and chew more thoroughly) I have seen and joined in on wonderful standing ovations after its use.
7) People walking barefoot in Manhattan. People spit there! And chewing tobacco. And urine! Yuck!
8) People rummaging in trash bins for food or alcohol. And then eating it/drinking it.
9) People being beat up. Well, okay, I really only saw the aftermath, not the actual assault. But it was still horrible and anyone with even a middling imagination could probably picture the actual act in their mind.
10) Dead, burnt body in a dumpster. Probably ticked someone off would be my guess. I moved shortly thereafter.
11) Live chicken in a city garbage can. Guess it grew up after Easter? Not as much fun anymore?
12) Little boy calling a black woman "the 'N' word". I mean a little boy. And saying it like he HATED her. So weird. So sad. It still depresses me to think about how that child must've been raised (or not...)
13) Prostitutes with needle tracks & no teeth. Okay, sure I prefer my prostitutes to look like debutantes. I mean, who doesn't? I think the really dead-end ones should be retired. Don't you? Okay, seriously though, the uncomfortable part was that she was probably going to be dead in a few months and you could sort of see that in her eyes.
14) A preteen girl wearing a t-shirt with the words "Boy Toy" on it. I mean, where do you even BUY such a shirt? And how do you get past mom & dad when you go to wear it outside? And what must her self-esteem be like? I failed to see the humor. I just pictured her filling her name into some drug dealer's calendar while letting him fondle her in public.
I know, there are worse things. But the point is that all of this stuff happened in public and generally in full view of whomever. With the exception of the Heimlich manuever (which is a wonderful thing), it's all pretty much awful behavior, criminal in many cases, but socially unacceptable at any rate.
In that context, public breastfeeding is pretty much not a concern. It's not like the woman is doing it for anyone's benefit but the child's. She isn't soliciting attention (unless she gives the play-by-play that CT is talking about).
And, heck, maybe people in this culture will become less prudish as a result... Or at least recognize the difference between sexual stimulation and the mere presence of a body part.
Criminy sakes!
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
dawnmaria-- My friend was in pain from having engorged breasts. Sometimes, when your milk first comes in, your breasts get stretched and hard. Like rocks. This goes away as your supply starts to synch up with the baby's demand, and in the mean time expressing the milk relieves the pressure. Not to say that breastfeeding isn't sometimes a little painful at first. I had terrible troubles, even some bleeding and scabbing in the very beginning (that came from not really being sure when the baby had latched on propperly-- it isn't something that's supposed to happen).
The most improtant thing for me when it came to breastfeeding was having a supportive family (husband and mother, especially). My friend Kathy gave up on breastfeeding fairly early because her mother started sneaking the baby bottles, and telling her he wasn't getting enough. Plus her husband was weirded out by it. *shrug*
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
dawnmaria: Check out the nursing section at Babies R Us. I'd suggest some of the gel packs that can be refrigerated or microwaved.
For engorged-feeling breasts, I'd suggest warmth. For general soreness, cold seems better. If it's nipple tenderness you're experiencing, try some Lansinoh (lanolin) and nipple guards.
Over the course of three kids, I've had just about every problem breastfeeding you can think of, including our current problem: over-active let-down.
The emotional roller-coaster thing is normal, although if you're feeling sad more often than normal you should probably mention it to your OB.
Go to the next LLL meeting in your area. They encourage expectant mothers who are thinking about breastfeeding, and can be a WONDERFUL support group.
If you need to talk, need advice, or just need to cry, send me an e-mail and I'll either give you my number or call you back.
[ June 26, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Boon ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
They say cold compresses and cabbage leaves help with the discomfort of engorgement. I have not used either though. But I think warmth encourages milk production thus exacerbating the problem.
Man, it bugs me when people say that if the baby latches on properly you won't get sore nipples. I got so incredibly sore with each of my three, and their latch-on was fine.
For me, it was a stage I had to go through until my skin got used to the chaffing. The soreness would be excruciating at latch on and then gradually subside throughout the nursing session until I could stand it. The pain was seriously worse than labor! I would scrunch up my face, stomp my foot on the ground and make little whimpering noises. Eventually my skin got used to it and nursing became no big deal--no pain at all involved.
I think it has to do with my skin-type. I also am very prone to tear (in birth) and get stretch-marks. Some people have tougher, more pliable skin. Extremely fair-skinned people (like me) are the unlucky ones.
[ June 26, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Bob, crimeny sakes indeed!
<===is glad she doesn't live in NYC
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
Thanks guys. Ya'll are great. I am lucky, my mom is very close by and my hubby is very supportive. My sister is just weird though. My first instinct when I found out I was having a baby was "OH YES< DRUGS PLEASE!" I wanted my epidural for the duration of the pregnancy. But I have read alot of things about it being harder to breastfeed initially after birth because you don't have total control of your limbs and such. I am going to try to go natural if I can. I am not opposed to the epidural but I am no longer looking to it immediately. I was talking to my sister about this and she was so patronizing! "All pregnant women say that so why should you be any different. You'll get it when the time comes." It relly peed me off! I know my family thinks I am a weinee, and hell with most pain I am but I am going to be a Mommy and they are made off tougher stuff then that! If it comes down to it being medically necessary I may but I am going to classes w/ the hubby and I am going to try to do this the way nature built me to! Oh, I could slap her! Maybe it's my hormones again!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
In my experience, it is the women who say they are wimps about pain that quite often find they can go natural and resist asking for that epidural.
If you are determined enough, you can do it. I had an epidural with my first two, and looooved the pain relief. I couldn't imagine going natural or even wanting to. Then for some reason my whole outlook changed. I went natural with number three. I prepared mentally and physically a great deal beforehand, and I think that helped.
I feel confident in saying that natural childbirth is bearable. But the most important thing is to not be afraid. If you panic, it will become "unbearable" very quickly. But if you remain calm, surrender yourself to your body and remain in tune with it (having good support from husband and professionals helps too) you *can* do it.
I think it must be harder the first time, though, since the body has never done it before and first time labors tend to be longer.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I did have a LOT of difficulty adjusting to breast feeding with the first one, but the worst of it was a really bad bruise/hicky thing I got when he didn't latch on just right.
But I did have bleeding and stuff. Actually , with the first one it hurt to breastfeed for abouit two or three weeks (only as he latched on). It was awful. And I'm not terribly fair. My sister is, and she had some difficulty at first, too.
The good neews is that it wasn't as hard with number 2.
Oh, and I second Lansinoh-- that stuff was a lifesaver.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Dawnmaria, Don't feel any kind of guilt about getting medication, or any feeling of "I will do this because I can" about natural childbirth. Learn all you can, let the comments roll off your back, and just trust yourself to make the right decision when the time comes. You are not wimpy if you get pain relief, and you are not stronger than anyone else if you have a natural birth. Either way, you are still pushing a very large object through a very small place, and once the baby is born, you won't care how he or she came to you.
I say this because I know women who have felt like failures when they had an epidural or even a C-section. They have felt like failures if they couldn;t nurse, or gave it up due to pain or any other reason.
You will be hearing a LOT of different opinions from this point on. People you know and love will really surprise you at how much they piss you off when they say things like: "The baby has diarrhea!!"(because breast-fed babes have resoundingly explosive poops that look like diarrhea) It was after about the fifteenth time of my mother in law saying this that I snapped at her. That and, whenever the baby was crying, I heard:"I think she is hungry," because she did not BELIEVE that she could be getting enough from my breasts.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I am decidedly against epidurals for ME, but that's just because of my fear of needles I can't watch.
I did get a total of one miligram of Stadol through the IV while in labor with Thomas, in (3) 1/3 mg mini-doses. I'm no hero, I needed something to take the edge off, but I didn't want to be out of it either.
Beverly and Elizabeth are right: learn all you can and don't be afraid to ask for pain relief if you want it. Try to be informed about what they want to give you, too. I suggest you try a half dose at first. If that's not enough after 10 minutes or so, the nurses will have no problem giving you the rest of your dose. That's what I did, in thirds. And I wound up with a spinal block anyway, because Thomas had to come via c-section. I don't regret a moment of it.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I second the advice to let all the advice wash over you *smile* And I know how hard this can be when you're already feeling overwhelmed and emotional. Get some good reference books and/or websites, keep up a good discussion with your doctor and realize that people are excited for your baby and don't realize how hurtful they can be. Be strong, do what is best for you and don't panic and you'll do wonderfully! You will make the right decisions for you and your baby.
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
quote:because she did not BELIEVE that she could be getting enough from my breasts.
There are two good ways to make sure a baby is getting enough milk: weighing on a sensitive scale and following the frequency of wet diapers. The latter is more practical.
Any baby that is urinating at least every 2-3h is getting more than enough liquid. Urinating every 3-4h is fine, and that's the average goal for normal babies. Babies that are going more than 5 or 6 hours between urinations need to be watched closely, and we really start to worry if they are going more than 8 hours between urinations. As long as your baby was urinating well, she (or he) was getting plenty of milk, and to heck with mothers-in-law.
For newborns, expect at least 1 pee the 1st day of life, 2 the 2nd, 3 the 3rd, up until they are urinating 6-8 times per day.
Newborns with jaundice or other medical problems may require some form of supplementation, but it doesn't have to be by bottle. Sip-cups, syringes, and a variety of tube-y things are all useful alternatives to prevent early "nipple confusion."
(I love Elizabeth's last post, and I wish every first time pregnant woman would take it to heart. Sensible, prosaic, and supportive. )
[ June 26, 2004, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: ClaudiaTherese ]
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
(and I love Christy's post, especially as she is my very favorite Pregnant Chick, and she totally is in charge. Go, Christy! )
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
lChristy, close your ears. I didn't post this story on the 'birth stories thread' because I didn't want to upset anyone.
Robert got stuck. After my labor stopped suddenly and for no reason (I was almost to the pushing stage and the contractions petered out) they put me on a pitocin drip (the dosage increases every 20 min). Now it doesn't do this everyone, but after about an hour of that, I felt like someone was ripping the spine out of my lower back every time I had a contraction. My natural labor hadn't been 'back labor' at all. It really hurt. I'd been awake for 48 hours at that point. I got an epidural. When the bill came a few months later, I cheerfully paid it in full. Worth every penny, and I'll tell you why.
Robert was stuck. After 3 and a half hours of pushing, he just wasn't budging. He was stuck about two inches in, and he wasn't gong to crown. They said it would be easiest to pull him out with forceps, but that they'd have to cut a lot, even inside. That seemed better than a c-section, which at that point would have been riskier for the baby because of where his head was stuck.
They cut, full epiziotome (sp?) and then some. When they pulled him out, I tore even more. Ron was completely traumatized to see it. The floor was slick with blood and stuff, and I looked like hamburger down there. They had to put me under general anesthesia to sew me up. I drifted in and out. I remember seeing two different nurses count stacks of bloody sponges (had to make sure they didn't leave any in me) and another mopping my blood and stuff off the floor. My privates were covered with ice packs and still very swollen. like, halfway to my knees.
My poor husband came in and held my hand. I couldn't see his face, because they made me take out my contacts when they put me under the general anesthesia. I could hear him crying a little, or trying not to. He'd gone with the baby for the washing and all that, so I thought something had happened to Robert.
Then Ron patted my head, called me a pet name he's always had for me, and told me that he would never ask me to go through that again. I told him it was okay, that I'd heal.
And I did. It took about 8 weeks instead of the usual six, but I was as good as new. But I NEVER felt guilty about the epidural. I'm glad I was mostly numb when most of that was happening (though I did feel pain-- it had been turned down when I started pushing so it was wearing off). I'm just saying.
My friend Susan had the same thing happen to her, only she 'over-healed' and the walls of her vagina actually started to heal together. She had to have them separated, and went through another several weeks of healing after that.
But you know what? We both had second babies, so it couldn't have been that bad.
[ June 26, 2004, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Olivetta ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Posted by ClaudiaTherese (Member # 923) on :
Posted by dangermom (Member # 1676) on :
I'm a little late, but I wanted to say that I found an electric breastpump very handy. I got into a routine where every morning, when I had plenty of milk, I'd give the baby breakfast on one side and pump the other. It kept my milk supply up, I had plenty of extra frozen milk on hand in case I needed it, and I liked to think of the extra calories I was getting rid of (nursing was a great weight-loss technique for me).
Oh, and for me too, Olivetta. Especially since it sound far too much like what would have happened to me if DangerGirl had been about 6 ounces lighter (she got stuck and we had a c-section).
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
*faints*
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Oh my, Olivia!!!!
CT, thank you. Your comment made me feel all tingly.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Olivia, you are a remarkably strong and resiliant woman!
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Having babies is hard work, that's why they call it "labor". *grin* That said, Olivia...
For breast milk relief, I recommend a warm, gentle shower. You will 'let down', but since you will be in the shower, it doesn't matter.
I had a battery-powered breast pump, but found hand-expressing much easier. YMMV. Since I was able to be a twenty four hour foodmart , it wasn't much of an issue.
Every woman has to be in charge of her own childbirth experience as much as she is able, since so many variables come into play, it's probably not going to go 'as planned', anyway. If the mom can feel as if she has at least had her instructions heeded by human persons (rather than Divine Intervention or whatever), at least there is that.
I was very very lucky to have such an...well...not easy (because it's HARD) birth experience...but a well-run no surprises birth experience with The Boy. I was not opposed to pain meds, but didn't end up using them. I did have a little pitocin to push out the placenta. I had an episiotomy so I wouldn't tear. I was able to choose these options myself (after consulting with the doctor and Knowledgeable Hubby). I was very lucky, indeed.
I hope that you get to be as lucky as me, too. Lucky to make your own choices, of course, not mine. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: My husband says if the baby is old enough to ask for it by name, they are too old.
This is what I've always said, too.
----
Dawnmaria: Don't be worried, this almost never happens. But the "gotcha" stage that's so painful when you first begin to breastfeed NEVER went away for me. The children were great at nursing and I'm physically normal, but I nursed through excruciating pain with one child until he was over a year old. When the second came along, I decided to use a bottle after it showed signs of being the same as the first child. I hated using a bottle, but it was preferable to being completely unable to enjoy my child MOST of the time, and I knew that the first kid could sense that I didn't want him anywhere near me at feeding time. I couldn't stand that with number two.
Posted by Mama Squirrel (Member # 4155) on :
I have breast fed practically everywhere, at work, at the store, walking at Niagara Falls, on an airplane, just everywhere. I have always covered up so no one can see anything. I was at a wedding a few months ago and another mom was feeding her child in public. It did make me uncomfortable because she did not cover up at all.
We had to buy a pump on the way home from the hospital after Mooselet was born because he would not latch (it took a week before he finally did). I can't tell you how many nurses grabbed my boobs and tried to get Mooselet to latch. I guess you can't be too modest in the hospital when you and the baby are still learning.
We did by an electric pump (does both at once). I have never had much luck with hand pumps. It only works if I am really full of milk (and then it still only works well with one of them).
I was cracked and sore for a few weeks with Superstation at the beginning too. It really hurt when he first latched, but got better by the time he was done. After a while it was fine.
I am getting tired of pumping, though. About two months ago Superstation decided he preferred the bottle (he will still nurse when he wakes up at night, but only then). I no longer pump just at work. Now I pump at home too. It is much cheaper than formula! But, it is getting really old. I am dropping a pumping every couple weeks and will have myself weaned by the time we go to KamaCon. When we return home, Superstation will have to eat the 70+ bottles of milk in our freezer before we have to go to formula.
On the drug front, I had an epi with Mooselet, but went natural with Superstation. Of course, that was not the plan with Superstation, and I was not prepared properly to go natural. I will plan for drugs next time, but I will be prepared not to have them (I will just be hoping we make it to the hospital in time, next time).
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
By the way, any of you ladies without children reading this thread get a hankering for a few, my boys are ready, willing, and able.
That is all.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
PSI, I used to put off feeding the baby till the last possible moment because I so dreaded the pain. Fortunately, it passed eventually, and the remainder of breastfeeding was relatively easy--until they started biting. > Lansinoh (or however you spell it) was a life saver.
I was told with the last baby that I might have a yeast infection on the breasts that might be irritating my skin. I was given a prescription for some little concoction called "newman ointment" or something that was sooooo nice! Like putting water on the fire. It was even better than Lansinoh. It really made me wonder if I had had a yeast infection the last two times also! Something to keep in mind. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Storm, just out of curiosity, are you willing to pay child support for all of them?
*sincerely wonders how any guy could be feeling horny after Olivetta's post*
[ June 26, 2004, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Yeah, with uncomfortable breast fullness, only use cold packs if you don't want to encourage milk production. Warmth may make you leak, but it won't make your supply dwindle. I think they tell women who don't want to breastfeed to use coldpacks to ease the engorgement.
BTW, I didn't tell that story to make anybody faint. I assure you that Robert was well worth the trouble. It was hard, what with the weeks of sits baths and sitting on pillows, and all the internal stitches made normal bodily functions challenging for a while. But I wouldn't go back and change it if I could. Robert is a peach.
I'm also glad it happened, because I was able to be there for Susan. She knew she could talk about very specific, intimate details that bothered her, because our experiences were so similar (even though her recovery was much worse, as mentioned above).
I also want to repeat the fact that we were both as good as new after we healed. No odd twinges or anything, no sexual or other consequences of any kind. I'm not particularly tough or resilient-- women in general ARE, though. We were made to be able to do this. We hurt, we heal, we love. We do what we have to do to take care of our babies. *shrug*
That's just how it is.
However, my mom (a registered nurse) was with me through it all. She counted the stitches. She said it took my doctor three contractions with me pushing and him pulling to get Robert out. She'd tell the story and not leave out the spurting blood or anything. That got old, real fast, but she did clam up about it when I asked her to.
In any case, when it comes to caring for your babies, listen to advice, but follow your instincts. Everyone makes mistakes. Our parents did, but we still managed to get this far. so don't sweat it too much.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
[stands and bows towards Olivetta] Well said.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: I also want to repeat the fact that we were both as good as new after we healed. No odd twinges or anything, no sexual or other consequences of any kind. I'm not particularly tough or resilient-- women in general ARE, though. We were made to be able to do this. We hurt, we heal, we love. We do what we have to do to take care of our babies. *shrug*
That is such a beautiful thing. Oh, and I am not all bothered that you shared that story. Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My husband says if the baby is old enough to ask for it by name, they are too old. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what I've always said, too.
Gotta respectfully disagree there. That' a pretty arbitrary standard to place on such a personal thing. I think it's a good idea to come up with code names for nursing, if the mom does not want to bother people though ( Unfortunatley my toddler, all on his own, came up with "boos", which sounds so much like booze I almost rather he asked for breast).
Olivett- WOW! What a story. And your friend! Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
My daughter calls them "milks" because I told her that I'm feeding my baby milk. I am really grateful, because she will commonly say to me or any other woman in public, "Do you have milks?" I just say "yes" or pretend I don't hear her. I would be more uncomfortable if she was saying to the check-out lady, "Do you have boobs?"
Though she is always asking boys and men, "Do you have a wee-wee?" And people can figure out what she is talking about there. But then it is not in response to her "seeing" said items, it is more a matter of deduction.
It doesn't matter how many times she has asked you the question. She *will* ask you again.
[ June 26, 2004, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
I taught Nathan to say "nurse" -it was one of his first words, actually.
And here's a cute "nursing" story (Nathan was not yet three years of age when this happened):
He saw a baby doll in blue overalls holding a bottle at ShopKo and reached for it. It was only $3.00 so I decided fine. Nathan popped the bottle into the doll's mouth and off down the aisle we went. A couple of minutes later I looked down and had to restrain myself from LMAO. Nathan had rucked up his shirt and placed the doll at his breast.
"Nathan, what are you doing, sweetie?" I asked.
"Nurse baby, mama. Bottle empty."
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Love it!
My five year old will hold a doll bottle to her chest, then give the doll and bottle to her little brother and tell him to feed tha baby while she's gone.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
bev, your story reminds me of Operaetta. She was about 3, and had not known my sister's boyfriend (now husband) for very long. I had my sister babysit, and I guess that while they were eating dinner, Operaetta looked at my sis's boyfriend and said, "You have a penis, right?" My sister, who had just left the table, said there was no way she was going to rescue him. He turned bright red and said, "yes, I do."
space opera
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
I don't like this thread anymore.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Diet Dr. Pepper just got sprayed all over my screen! Thanks a lot! Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*wipes down Boon's screen*
*mumbles thanks*
what's with the diet dr. pepper, BTW? *shivers* nasty!
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Mmmmm.... Dr. Pepper....
[ June 27, 2004, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Mmmmm..... gravity......
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Boon, I had a similar experience to yours while nursing my son in a doctor's waiting room. This was a very large waiting room for a large ophthamology practice. There was an area on the left hand side with a play area for children. It was separated from the rest of the waiting room with a high divider. The receptionist could see me, but none of the adults in the other parts of the waiting room.
My son got hungry, and I breastfed him. It was always my practice, when breastfeeding, to wear large shirts that provided a lot of coverage, and didn't reveal any skin at all while breastfeeding. Most of the time you couldn't even tell I was breastfeeding, it just looked like I was holding the baby close (and any mother can practice this at home before trying it in public).I never had the practice of throwing a blanket over my shoulder because I feel that this just draws attention to what you are doing.
In any case, the receptionist did figure out what I was doing. She walked over to me and said, "Could you please do that in the rest room?" It was as though she couldn't even bring herself to say what I was doing. I responded, "No, I will not feed my baby in the bathroom."
I just want to point out that a lot more boob is revealed in the bathing suits women wear these days (and even in some of the outfits women wear these days) than you will see when a women is discreetly breastfeeding her baby.
But I don't have any problem at all with women breastfeeding their babies in public, even if they are showing breast. That's what breasts are for, and if more women did it, our society would not look on it as something unnatural, shameful, improper, "gross" (yes, I've heard this said) or dirty.
And Boon, I loved the breastfeeding cards. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
When my youngest was an infant, my oldest was not-quite-six. She had a large collection of dolls and stuffed animals. She liked to "nurse" them, one after another, frequently. She decided it was too much bother to move her clothes out of the way -- so she just nursed through them. I always wished I could figure out that trick!
Dawnmaria, if you are experiencing breast discomfort, have you considered that you may need a larger bra? Especially with a first pregnancy, there tends to be significant growth of the breast and expansion of the rib cage.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Do they STAY that way?
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
rivka, a larger bra is an excellent suggestion for Dawnmaria. I was thinking that, too. Many women have some breast discomfort during pregnancy though. It's usually the worst the first trimeester, but it can vary from woman to woman.
Dawnmaria, La Leche League are an excellent idea too. They have lots of good information and will answer all your questions. I always encourage pregnant moms to come to my LLL meetings.
Breastfeeding [b]should not/b] hurt. Get educated about proper positioning and latch-on before the birth. If you have a problem after birth, don't wait, have the name of a local LLL Leader with you, and call her - Leaders can often help with problems over the phone. I tell the moms in my group to take my phone number to the hospital.
Oh, and if you are staying home with the baby, you don't need a breast pump at all. Some women do like a pump to pump an occasional bottle. But please don't start pumping till your milk supply is well-established, at about 4-6 weeks of age, unless you have circumstances that make it necessary.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
No, Jamie, the breasts don't stay larger after you stop lactating.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Just checking. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Is there a union to join?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I hate to disagree with Ela, but in my experience, that's not 100% true.
The rib cage shrinks back somewhat after pregnancy, but usually stays a bit larger than pre-pregnancy. As far as the breasts . . . it depends. I know several women whose stayed significantly larger even years after weaning. In some cases that is probably mostly a weight issue, but in at least two that I know of it is not.
But most women do seem to shrink back to approximately pre-pregnancy size, or maybe a cup size bigger.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Many complain that they are smaller-chested after lactation. Some speculate this is just the "deflatedness" after being stretched so big, but seems to be an increasing acknowledgement that this does happen to some women.
[ June 27, 2004, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
My breasts were smaller for about a year after weaning. Eventually they regained their pre-pregnancy size, but they are still different.
space opera
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
It's true for most women, rivka. There are always exceptions for every generality.
For example, I was an exception to the generality that it's easy to lose your pregnancy weight gain while breastfeeding. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
This whole thing just squicks me out.
Childbirth - Not For the Easily Squicked Out.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I have heard that too--that they will be smaller than normal right after, but then regain the original size given time. Never the same afterwards, but then that's not the only aspect of a mother's body that will never be the same.
Dang, Ela, breastfeeding does not seem to make it easy for me to lose the weight either.
[ June 27, 2004, 02:18 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: For example, I was an exception to the generality that it's easy to lose your pregnancy weight gain while breastfeeding.
Amen, sister!
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
My breastages just keep getting bigger. Then again, so does the rest of me. Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
And yet, I have talked to hundreds of women at LLL meetings and elsewhere who have said how easy it was to lose that baby weight while breastfeeding...
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
cuz I think I've got this lactation bit down, but I'm wondering if my Screen Actors Guild credits will transfer... or cross-over.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ela, and most of my friends agree. One woman I know has had 13 kids, and generally by the time each baby reaches 3 months, looks as slender as she must have before she had any. And I've asked her about it -- the weight just comes off with breastfeeding, she says.
I think I hate her.
[ June 27, 2004, 02:24 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
I Love You Guys! You are making me feel so much better! rivka, I did get bigger bras. Lord, I had too! It's more a nipple pain then the whole breast. I may go to get some of that cream ya'll were talking about today and see if that helps. I read that a pregnant womens heart enlarges a little bit, could that be why our ribcages get larger? The more I read the more I feel possessed! Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Could someone check the following summary for me. I find that I'm intensely interested in the issue, but like most men who haven't been around children much, I'm ignorant of the basic facts.
So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is; it can be messy (let down can happen at inopportune moments, for example), but shouldn't be too bothersome if you plan ahead; it may be socially unacceptable for some, but the attitudes in the US seem to be shifting, at least about breastfeeding -- ideal age of weaning is another topic altogether; and, breastfeeding is best for the baby because of various nutrients and immunities that are passed from mother to child this way. Along with a love of favorite foods (or so I'm told).
Pumps are a good idea because: you have breastmilk ready for feedings even if mom is not available (like maybe she needs sleep every once in awhile); if you are producing a lot of milk, it's not going to waste. Some kids prefer the bottle.
Formula is not as good for the baby and should only be used when the baby is reacting badly to breastmilk (e.g., allergies) or if breastmilk is simply not available (e.g., mom isn't producing enough or has stopped lactating for some reason).
As for benefits for the mother, breastfeeding may help to lose weight. Breast size (um...who cares???) may be affected up, down or not at all. But that could happen just with pregnancy and whether you breastfeed or not may have no effect.
There's a lot to be said for the psychological bond between mother and child while breastfeeding too, I suppose. But does that mean that feeding from a bottle is going to harm your child's self-esteem?
Anyway, I'd appreciate knowing if this sort of sums things up. Is that the prevailing wisdom? Or, is that stuff up for debate?
In my mom's generation, I think women were encouraged to use formula and bottles. Part of that was being "modern," (whatever that means) but I know there was also the idea of cleanliness using a sterilized bottle & nipple as being "obviously better" for the baby than some body part that must be dirty because it's used in sex or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm sure women in the 1950's were convinced that their breasts were covered in germs and only by using the Platex nurser could they avoid killing their babies.
Any thoughts you'd care to share would be most welcome.
And can I join a class action suit against formula makers? I think my self-esteem was damaged by being fed formula from a bottle.
Either that or I was weaned too early or potty trained too late.
I can't remember which.
By the way...there should be an "episiotomy discussion warning" on this thread. Yikes!!!
Oh, and public episiotomies would make me uncomfortable.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
Hey Bob! If you think those public one would make you uncomfortable, think how those private ones make us feel! :shakes if anticipatory fear: Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
I agree with Ralphie.
Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
Ok, me being a guy and having been able to read pretty nearly half of ths thread without throwing up(though I admit I picked my battles, and didn't read most of this page) I think I deserve a medal of honor. Or at least a chance to derail and reply to the original question and contradict the heck out of myself Covered breastfeeding: Well yes it makes me uncomfortable, but I certainly don't think I have a right to do more than feel that way. Uncovered breast feeding: hemm hur, I guess since other guys have spoken up honestly about this, I'll try to take that a step further. Somebody said something about it not being at all erotic, and somebody else said something about the eroticness of breasts being a cultural thing- yeah well bu-honkey. I rather doubt there's been a straight guy ever born that wasn't totally fascinated with breasts-yes I am saying it, female human breasts are, in fact, erotic if you are a male human-, and the fact that some guys are a lot more used to naked boobs than others and are therefore less likely to be shocked is beside the point. Uncovered breast feeding does not simply make me uncomfortable, I believe it rather tends to disgust me, and though of course I can't really make this comparison in a practical sense, I would say my embarrasment over that is approximately on par with what it would be if I was witnessing female masturbation. That being said, despite me and others being pretty severely shocked and embarassed and having to look every which way, a woman should be able to breast feed her baby pretty much whenever, wherever and, within limits of course, however she wants, and nobody really has any right to bitch about it, because if you think about it, who the heck has any right to come between a mother and her baby doing what's natural and right for the baby? Otherwise, you might as well just throw the whole motherhood thing out the window and send all infants to some new-age "adult factories". That idea doesn't appeal to me personally. It disgusts me on a moral level rather than a superficial one.
There I said it all *finds large barrel, hides till next day* breast feeding is for girls, anyway. Literally. Speaking of which, on the subject of women, why would a woman who is not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist and not a lesbian who has been in a women's locker room find another woman's breast feeding in public disturbing? I don't get it in a does not compute, brain overload, kind of way. *Self destruct* Well this would go along with my theory tht all women are bi-sexual, but I'm afraid that's hardly a very scientific theory No I do not get it, not at all, somebody care to elaborate? Maybe that's a dumb question and I'm thinking too much from a guy's perspective but I confess that's the only perspective I happen to have. Oh well good thread anyway.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Bob, to answer your questions:
quote:So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is
This is true.
quote:it can be messy (let down can happen at inopportune moments, for example), but shouldn't be too bothersome if you plan ahead
Ususally only in the beginning, and washing all those bottles for formula can be a lot more messy (plus a lot more expensive!).
quote:it may be socially unacceptable for some, but the attitudes in the US seem to be shifting, at least about breastfeeding
I sure hope so! At times I am not altogether convinced.
quote:ideal age of weaning is another topic altogether
Ideal age of weaning is whatever works best for the nursing couplet. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends breastfeeding for at least one year (and waiting till at least 6 months to start solid foods). It is still pretty uncommon, though, for a woman to nurse the baby a full year, in the US, anyway.
quote:breastfeeding is best for the baby because of various nutrients and immunities that are passed from mother to child this way. Along with a love of favorite foods (or so I'm told).
Not to mention the comfort of being close to mom. Breastfeeding also helps proper jaw development, can reduce the risk for many chronic diseases, and has a whole host of other benefits.
quote:Pumps are a good idea because: you have breastmilk ready for feedings even if mom is not available (like maybe she needs sleep every once in awhile); if you are producing a lot of milk, it's not going to waste. Some kids prefer the bottle.
I want to counter the notion that pumps are a necessary part of breastfeeding. This is one of my pet peeves. The pump companies make moms think they have to have a pump to breastfeed. I get calls all the time from mothers who are planning to breastfeed and think they need a pump right away.
Pumps are needed if the mother is going back to work, or if the mother or baby can't nurse due to illness or other extenuating circumstance. Some mothers who stay home with the baby like to have a pump on hand to pump an occasional bottle. In any case, pumping should not begin until the baby is at least a month old, again, unless there is an illness or some extenuating circumstance. A woman should always consult a LLL Leader or certified lactation consultant if she is told she "has" to pump. Some doctors will tell a woman that she has to stop breastfeeding and pump when there is no necessity to do this.
quote:Formula is not as good for the baby and should only be used when the baby is reacting badly to breastmilk (e.g., allergies) or if breastmilk is simply not available (e.g., mom isn't producing enough or has stopped lactating for some reason).
Formula is definitely not as good for the baby. (I could give you an earful about some of the downsides of formula, but that would open a whole different can of worms.)
If a baby is allergic, that is usually NOT an indication to stop breastfeeding. MOST allergic babies do much better on breastfeeding; sometimes the mom may need to adjust her diet, though, to eliminate foods the baby reacts to. Often this adjustment may be temporary, as the baby may outgrow sensitivities to certain foods.
I would also not tell a mother to automatically give formula for a perceived breastmilk insufficiency. I say this because far too many women start supplementing because they think they don't have enough, and this just exacerbates the problem. The body makes the amount of milk the baby needs based on the amount of stimuation of the breast, either by sucking or pumping. If a woman assumes that she doesn't have enough, and starts supplementing, her milk will go down, and "not enough milk" becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The way to tell a baby is getting enough milk is by monitoring wet and dirty diapers, weight gain, and normal development. A normal newborn will be making 5-6 really wet disposable diapers (6-8 cloth diapers) by about the 3rd day of life, and 3-5 dirty diapers per day. If a woman suspects she is not making enough, or has been told she doesn't have enough by her doctor or the baby's doctor, she should consult a LLL Leader and/or see a lactation consultant.
quote:As for benefits for the mother, breastfeeding may help to lose weight.
This seems to be true for most women.
quote:Breast size (um...who cares???) may be affected up, down or not at all. But that could happen just with pregnancy and whether you breastfeed or not may have no effect.
Yes, it is pregnancy, whether or not you breastfeed, that causes the most changes to the breast.
quote:There's a lot to be said for the psychological bond between mother and child while breastfeeding too, I suppose. But does that mean that feeding from a bottle is going to harm your child's self-esteem?
Depends on how the mother handles bottlefeeding. If she thinks it's too much trouble and "props" the bottle for the baby (a very dangerous practice, by the way), then I guess it could affect the child's self-esteem.
quote:In my mom's generation, I think women were encouraged to use formula and bottles. Part of that was being "modern," (whatever that means) but I know there was also the idea of cleanliness using a sterilized bottle & nipple as being "obviously better" for the baby than some body part that must be dirty because it's used in sex or something along those lines. Anyway, I'm sure women in the 1950's were convinced that their breasts were covered in germs and only by using the Platex nurser could they avoid killing their babies.
Bob, I wasn't breastfed either. The doctor convinced my mom that she couldn't breastfeed after a c-section. He couldn't understand why she would want to breastfeed, anyway, and asked if she wanted to make herself into a cow. Her response was, "Yes, I do," and for my two sisters, she found a doctor supportive of breastfeeding and breastfed them both.
quote:And can I join a class action suit against formula makers? I think my self-esteem was damaged by being fed formula from a bottle.
I don't know of any class action suits against formula.
Maybe you'd like to check out IBFAN, though, or WABA.
**Ela**
[ June 27, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"Speaking of which, on the subject of women, why would a woman who is not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist and not a lesbian who has been in a women's locker room find another woman's breast feeding in public disturbing?"
I am not a nutsy radical anti-breastfeeding feminist. I am not a lesbian.(amd i totally don;t get the locker room reference, but whatever)
I will be honest. I feel uncomfortable seeing people's private body parts, even a woman's. I am TOTALLY Ok with public breastfeeding. I happened to be very shy about it, as I am shy about seeing other people's "parts. That is all.
There is also a genrational thing. My great-grandmother was horrified by seeing people eat in public(like as they walk along the street) She was post-Victorian age, but retained many of the taboos. At various points in history, women were not allowed in public when they were pregnant.
Also, I know a lot of men who will not urinate in front of other men. Some people are just shy.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote:So, breastfeeding shouldn't be painful and the woman should seek assistance if it is
I haven't had time to read this topic entirely, so I'm not sure how others have addressed the pain issue.
Breastfeeding can be very painful indeed. I even found the first week of nursing to be painful after my third child. Pain or not, I wouldn't have opted to feed my newborns any differently. It was the only thing that made sense to me.
I truly feel terrible for new mothers who have such a hard time and stop. I can’t help but think due to my own experiences, that they gave up to soon.
For those new mothers who find breast feeding distasteful, I feel sorry for them as well. It’s an experience that no mother should miss. *personal feelings*
I developed a horrible case of mastitis during my first child’s first month of nursing. When you're hurt and bleeding, it's very hard to continue subjecting yourself to the very thing that caused you so much pain. I mentioned here before that I agreed to have pictures of my wounds taken, that's how bad they were, for a nursing manual of some sort. I had to wear cups that make me look like Wonder Woman until the infection cleared up. That in itself was humiliating. I nursed through the entire episode. As much as I was reassured, I had a hard time believing that this was okay for my baby. I cried every time I nursed, due to the intense pain, for several weeks.
I nursed in public, all the time. I was lucky. You couldn't tell I was nursing. I just laid a diaper or baby blanket over them and they usually nursed until they fell asleep. These matters can generally be handled very discreetly.
However, without going into detail...some mothers are not that fortunate.
I nursed all of my children until they were almost two years old.
I’ve witnessed both discreet and indiscreet nursing. Unfortunately, some do nurse in a way that would make anyone uncomfortable. There are exhibitionist , if you will, out there. I find this to be an extreme exception, definitely not the norm.
I can’t handle the mothers who are so distracted, or whatever, that they just let junior walk up and help himself to comfort, right then and there…in public. That’s over the top.
Time to graduate to a sippy cup.
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
quote: I want to counter the notion that pumps are a necessary part of breastfeeding. This is one of my pet peeves. The pump companies make moms think they have to have a pump to breastfeed. I get calls all the time from mothers who are planning to breastfeed and think they need a pump right away.
Oh I agree. Pumps can be helpful; however, they're very evil. Very evil indeed.
I had to be hospitalized for Kidney Stones a week after my second son was born. I was so lucky , I got to go to a hospital that didn't have a maternity ward. I was stuffed into a room on the Infectious Disease floor. I didn't want my son anywhere near that floor. They had to import a pump from another hospital. By the time the pump made it to my room I was a mess , again I'll skip the details. The pump was more painful than actually nursing with an infection at this point. Am I grossing anyone out yet?
So okay...they may be necessary, yet they are still evil.
Oh..and on the pain issue. I personally found nursing during the first few weeks painful. I've talked to many other mothers who had no problem what so ever. Just my luck.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
As you said, Tammy, you haven't read the whole thread.
Breastfeeding shouldn't be painful. If it is, a La Leche League Leader or lactation consultant should be contacted for assistance in working through what is causing the pain and how to solve the problem. Posted by suntranafs (Member # 3318) on :
"Some people are just shy."
Yeah I know. That's totally fine. Honestly, I'm tend to be quite a bit that way myself. It just doesn't shock or embarass me the way breastfeeding pretty most always does, and even if a woman's reaction wasn't qite so strong, it's hard for me to understand why it would be enough to react verbally over it. Again though, maybe I lack perspective here.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Oh, and Tammy, I wouldn't say the pump was necessarily evil, in your case. I am sure you would have had a lot fewer problems if they had gotten it to you in a more timely manner. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Ela,
The only part I really don't "get," is the advice on age of weaning. I understand that the intent is for the mother and child to make the decision and no-one else.
But, what if the mother wants to stop and the child doesn't? Or vice versa (although I suppose that forcing a child to nurse would be difficult, hmm...).
I just think that answer is too simplistic in that it doesn't really give a person the rubric they're looking for. I know that LLL wouldn't want to give a rule of thumb, but I mean really, is there NO POINT beyond which you personally would say "um, wean that kid already."?
Would it be okay for an 8-year-old to nurse?
A 12 year old?
I mean, I'd be worried about psychological problems at that point. Over-dependence on mommy, perhaps a controlling mother...and definitely some strange psychosexual development.
anyway, thanks for the answers. I knew I could count on you! Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
Ela, I did consult a lactation consultant. Initially I was having a problem with breast pads. I switched from cloth to disposable. I believe certain factors having to do with my inexperience contributed to my pain.
I see where you're coming from. I'm calling pain and extreme tenderness the same thing.
The pain I experienced the first time was not normal. The extreme tenderness I experienced with Arik and Aubree' was completely different. I'm sure every new mother experiences different degrees of tenderness.
edited to add - I personally think pumps can be very evil.
[ June 27, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Tammy ]
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
Amen, Ela! This whole thread gives me hope. What a wonderful source of encouragement and inspiration!
Nathan and I really struggled. He was critically ill to begin with and then had a suck/swallow disorder - couldn't even take a bottle let alone a nipple, and once those issues were straightened out with the lactationist and we had learned to latch on, he became critically ill again and was in PICU for two weeks and regular hospital for another being tubefed. I pumped all the way through - and that was a miserable, painful experience. I remember chanting to him, "You keep breathing, I'll keep pumping" through the pain.
I consequently had absolutely no patience for people's ctiticisms and complaints about breastfeeding. My best answers to them generally included rather barbed humor, my worst included telling them where to get off and mind their own business. My family were horrendous about the whole thing and not supportive or helpful at all. Of course, given my stubborn natue, it was probably as well they pissed me off because I needed the energy. Nathan was so traumatized by his hospitalizations that our sleeping patterns for the first year included essentially 20-minute catnaps. I left him exactly once for four hours and he literally shrieked the entire time.
I do remember the doctor telling me that it was a good thing he was getting breastmilk since he was able to receive so little nourishment anyway. And the lactationist reassuring me that the milk was fine and that I was making enough to feed twins.(He was hooked up to so many machines - you couldn't even see his face.) At three months of age he did not look much bigger than he did at one month. And at one month he was just under 10 lbs.
I am happy to report, however, (despite some on-going medical problems which have thankfully been decreasing) that he is overall a very sturdy, happy boy.
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Bob,
I asked our pediatrician the same thing. Most women are encouraged to breast feed as long as possible, expecially the first 6 months. At this point, there is a regional difference of opinion. In the US, many women may stop breast feeding. I am told that European women keep breast feeding and ONLY breast feed for the first year. American women are encouraged to start introducing foods after 6 months, usually around 8-9 months of age. There are accounts of women starting foods as early as 2 weeks, but I do not encourage this since it can increase the liklihood of food allergies.
But the point being, to breast feed after one year is strictly optional by the mother, but certainly not biologically harmful. After all, Vitamin D whole milk (recommended until age 2) is designed for baby cows, but baby humans, but it works. Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:But, what if the mother wants to stop and the child doesn't? Or vice versa (although I suppose that forcing a child to nurse would be difficult, hmm...).
If a mother wants or needs to stop before the baby wants to, there are ways of gradually weaning the baby, by substituting a bottle (or food, for an older child) for a nursing, waiting a day or two till the milk supply adjusts, then substituting a bottle for another nursing. Stopping "cold turkey" is upsetting to the child and painful for the mom.
Not only is it difficult to force a child to nurse, it's just not possible. You can't make a child, even an infant, go through the sucking motions needed to extract the milk from the breast if the baby doesn't want to do it.
quote:I just think that answer is too simplistic in that it doesn't really give a person the rubric they're looking for. I know that LLL wouldn't want to give a rule of thumb, but I mean really, is there NO POINT beyond which you personally would say "um, wean that kid already."?
Would it be okay for an 8-year-old to nurse?
A 12 year old?
I mean, I'd be worried about psychological problems at that point. Over-dependence on mommy, perhaps a controlling mother...and definitely some strange psychosexual development.
Seriously, I have never known a 12-year-old to breastfeed. Even an 8-year-old is very uncommon. I have known a few mothers who breastfed a child till age 7, though, and the children in question suffered no ill effects from that.
You have to realize that an older child who nurses is not nursing like an infant. Often, even in a toddler, it may be only a few times a day. An older child may nurse only at bedtime, or when upset, for comfort reasons.
I have heard the pyschological objections about breastfeeding older children, and I frankly don't buy them. That's adult thinking imposed on a child's brain. The child doesn't think of breastfeeding and breasts sexually the way an adult does. As I said before, you can't force a child to nurse.
And what do you define as "over-dependence on the mommy"? Children are dependent on their parents, whether they are breastfeeding or not. Some are more dependent, and just have more needs, then others. I have found that if you fulfill a child's needs when they are young, they grow up into independent, self-confident adults - it seems to be working with my kids, so far. And I have seen it work with the kids of many other parents I have met through La Leche League and other parenting and breastfeeding networks.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:I see where you're coming from. I'm calling pain and extreme tenderness the same thing.
The pain I experienced the first time was not normal. The extreme tenderness I experienced with Arik and Aubree' was completely different. I'm sure every new mother experiences different degrees of tenderness.
Thanks for the clarification, Tammy. You are right, some tenderness at first is normal. But for excruciating pain, get help.
Shan, wow, you really went through a lot. I commend you for your perseverance. Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
I also wanted to say the accounts shared by everyone were very informative and that this thread is turning into a Baby Survival Guide, and that is GOOD.
I also liked Bob's other irritating issues that bug him more than breastfeeding in public. I would also like to summarize that even if I were uncomfortable, (and I am not) I agree with Sun that I would deal with it in my own way.
I do not believe it was said earlier, but I think the man that complained about you breastfeeding was out of line. Even if he did not feel comfortable with your actions, he should have shut up. If I were there, I too would have defended your ability to breastfeed your baby. Ironically, his nerve to even initiate such a complaint is infinitely more aggravating than anything else in this example. So in essence, this guy pissed me off. I was mad for you too Boon.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Okay, I'm imposing my adult opinions on the mind of a child. But how would you ever decide that a 7 year old NEEDS to nurse -- i.e., that this need is normal and not an indication of something to worry about? And that nursing is the RIGHT way to meet whatever need you've identified?
And I wouldn't necessarily think there's a sexual connotation if a 7 year old is nursing for comfort or at bedtime.
But really, is there no other way to comfort a 7 year old child than letting it nurse?
I imagine the father might feel a bit undervalued in that relationship too.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:Okay, I'm imposing my adult opinions on the mind of a child. But how would you ever decide that a 7 year old NEEDS to nurse -- i.e., that this need is normal and not an indication of something to worry about? And that nursing is the RIGHT way to meet whatever need you've identified?
And I wouldn't necessarily think there's a sexual connotation if a 7 year old is nursing for comfort or at bedtime.
But really, is there no other way to comfort a 7 year old child than letting it nurse?
I imagine the father might feel a bit undervalued in that relationship too.
Bob, I doubt I could give you an answer that would satisfy you.
I have never nursed a 7-year-old, so I can't speak from personal experience.
The fathers of the nursing 7-year-olds that I have known did not feel devalued, either, any more than a father would feel devalued by any other attention a mother is giving a child.
In the cases I am aware of in which a child nursed to age 7, the parents were practicing "child-led weaning." In other words, they let the child decide when to stop. I can't tell you what the particular factors were that led to the decision to do that in each and every case. All I can tell you is, I know the families, and the children, and they are happy and well-adjusted, and functioning well (some are adults already).
[ June 27, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
My personal feeling beforehand was that I very much wanted my kids to nurse at least a year (there is a family history of allergies, among other reasons), and was willing to nurse to age 2. If I'd had a kid who was ill or really seemed to need to nurse, I probably would have gone to age 4.
Child number one showed less and less interest in nursing at about 13 months, and I could easily have weaned her -- but I was taking her with me to NY a month later, and did NOT want to have an infant on an airplane who I could not comfort by nursing. So I encouraged her to continue nursing, and she did, although with less enthusiasm. (She had never been the most vigorous nurser. My mother referred to her as a gourmet. suck, suck, pause "Hmm, what is that flavor?" suck "Yes, yes, I think it might be--" suck "--yes, it is!" etc.) But it really came in handy both on the plane and several times on the trip, trying to comfort her in a strange place. Nursed her on the plane ride home, and then never again.
Child number two, at age 17 months, not only showed no diminished interest, but was wanting to nurse more often. I made jokes to friends about nursing him at his wedding. At 18 months, about the same. Shortly after that, he simply gradually weaned himself. When offered the breast a week later, he gave me a look like, "You want me to do WHAT? Get that thing away from me!"
Child number three was harder. Like the second, she had no interest in weaning at 17 or 18 months. I, however, did. When at 20 months she still had no interest in stopping, I gradually weaned her.
I have friends who: never breastfed; tried but were unsuccessful (in one case, was actually told by a lactation consultant after she tried to nurse two babies unsuccessfully that she seemed to be that rare woman with insufficient glandular tissue); breastfed for: 6 weeks, 6 months, a year, 2-3 years, 4.5 years. Know what all have in common? A mom and baby who did what worked best for them, and are happy and healthy.
As far as pumps go, bad, low-suction pumps (hand or electric) are EVIL. Good, properly adjustable ones, are very useful if you need to leave your baby at home for part or all of the day.
My mom always hand-expressed. I tried, repeatedly. I never got the hang of it. I would end up with a little in the container, and the rest making me sticky. Bleh.
I did have one hand pump that was not bad. The kind made with two interlocking tubes that pull apart? Ela will know what it's called. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Ela...Yeah, I guess.
It does squick me out though. I have to admit that.
And I'm probably not going to change my attitudes even if I met these happy, well-adjusted people. I'd just assume that they were happy and well adjusted despite their parent's best efforts.
It's my bias and prejudice, not theirs. I admit it. I don't understand. And I don't want to.
I'd rather have a child that is NOT well adjusted. Just like everyone else.
[ June 27, 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote: ...A mom and baby who did what worked best for them, and are happy and healthy.
I get it! I get it!
Maybe when I live through the experience I'll understand better.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sorry, Bob. I actually wasn't trying to lecture. It took me years to stop pushing friends who chose not to nurse, or weaned early.
I come by it naturally, though. My grandmother nursed her daughters at a time when almost no one did -- when even the pediatrician was sure the baby couldn't be getting enough (and actually convinced her to supplement with the oldest). I come from a line of stubborn women. Who'ld'a thunk? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
My mother was bottle fed (during that era when breastfeeding was frowned upon) and to this day she blames her weight struggles on that!
Sun, I know I am uncomfortable changing into a bathing suit around other women or them doing the same. I don't know how many feel that way or what it might or might not have to do with bisexuality.
But.... I think that men in general are more accustomed to having their privates exposed around other boys. It seems in general in our culture that a girl's privacy among same-gender is more valued than male's privacy among same-gender. I have random thoughts and theories on why that may be, but I don't really know.
Personally, I think it would be a good thing for men to have more privacy from same-gender. Private urinal stalls, private showers, etc. I suppose it is just a way to save money and everyone assumes the guys don't care.
I remember in my college dorm the girl's showers were semi-private (separated by a curtain, but to get to the back shower you have to walk through the front shower) but the guys had no privacy at all. I remember discussing this with the men and their indignance at the difference. They *all* expressed a desire for more privacy and were ticked off that we had it and they didn't.
They were also ticked off that all the women's bathrooms had a quiet, dark room with a couch or two for women to lay on who were in pain from PMS or whatnot (other female reproductive-related issues). I know I used them multiple times with *good* reason. (ouchie!) But they were ticked off nonetheless.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Rivka, is that the Medela Manual Pump?
Bob, I could add very little to Ela's eloquent answers. One thing I want to say is that between amother who bottle feeds on demand, and a parent who breastfeeds on a schedule, the bottle fed child will IMO have better self esteem. I think the attitude brought into it is so important.
There are other physical benefits of breastfeeding for mothers, the major one being reduced rates of breast cancer.
The oldest child I have ever met who was still nursing was 5. I have seen that the children that seem to need nursing longer, tend to have food allergies. My daughter was a prime example. She could tolerate NOTHING but breastmilk until 11 months ( she would projectile vomit) and would not take a bottle. (You'd think I would have lost weight then , especially as she had persistent thrush and I couldn't have sweets, but no, I gained a ton). My youngest is staring down his second birthday and I am cutting down his nursing, not really looking to fully wean in the next month or so but using distraction to make the timing better for me, and less often.
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
Rivka, is that the Medela Manual Pump?
Bob, I could add very little to Ela's eloquent answers. One thing I want to say is that between amother who bottle feeds on demand, and a parent who breastfeeds on a schedule, the bottle fed child will IMO have better self esteem. I think the attitude brought into it is so important.
There are other physical benefits of breastfeeding for mothers, the major one being reduced rates of breast cancer.
The oldest child I have ever met who was still nursing was 5. I have seen that the children that seem to need nursing longer, tend to have food allergies. My daughter was a prime example. She could tolerate NOTHING but breastmilk until 11 months ( she would projectile vomit) and would not take a bottle. (You'd think I would have lost weight then , especially as she had persistent thrush and I couldn't have sweets, but no, I gained a ton). My youngest is staring down his second birthday and I am cutting down his nursing, not really looking to fully wean in the next month or so but using distraction to make the timing better for me, and less often.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Wow, I've never been called "eloquent" before. Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
*lured back into thread by promises of eloquent answers to Bob questions*
*isn't disappointed*
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
If I don't know the woman, my response is similar to Icarus's, but if I do know her, then I'm totally comfortable with it.
Here's something different: being asked to comment on someone's nipple piercings. I've had it happen a couple times that I'll be with a group of folks and someone will be wanting to show off their new piercing... and since in my case I think any kind of piercing (even earrings) are an act of bodily mutilation I've had to stay "cool" and not wince and ask why the hell someone would want to do that to themselves... eep...
(One of the woman who'd gotten pierced went on to have a kid and breastfeed a few years later. She got rid of her piercings fast!!)
[ June 27, 2004, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: plaid ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: I was told with the last baby that I might have a yeast infection on the breasts that might be irritating my skin. I was given a prescription for some little concoction called "newman ointment" or something that was sooooo nice! Like putting water on the fire. It was even better than Lansinoh. It really made me wonder if I had had a yeast infection the last two times also! Something to keep in mind.
May have been my problem, since my son was plagued with thrush for at least the first six months. I wish I had known earlier that it was caused by yeast.
Posted by dawnmaria (Member # 4142) on :
Correct my ignorance guys. What's thrush? Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Thrush is a yeast infection. It's not uncommon for babies to get it in their mouths, where it can appear as white patches. If the mother gets it on her breasts, it can lead to itchy and/or painful nipples.
It's not uncommon to get thrush following antibiotic use, and is also common in people with compromised immune systems.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Okay, I vow to shut up (after this rather long and unapologetic post) until I've actually lived through the breastfeeding years with a child of my own. I figure Dana can make the decision as to how long to go until weaning. And I do realize that every child is different.
I was involved in "Big Brother/Big Sister" when I was teenager. My little brother was a great kid. Very well adjusted. He had no fear. We hiked and biked and had a great time.
One of the girls in the group had a little sister who was afraid of her own shadow. Later on, we found out that the counselors who ran the program were really at a loss as to what to do about it because the girl should've been screened out (i.e., you don't really want a troubled child assigned to a sixteen year old...). But anyway, I can certainly understand how a child might be 7 or 8 and still have serious need of basic comforting. I do think nursing at that age is a bit abnormal and I would at least worry, if not actually insist on some counseling if there were other aspects of the kid's behavior that indicated more than just a need for comfort at that age.
But then, I'm not a professional child psychologist. I just remember thinking that this little girl was not quite right. Forcing her to "participate" in group activities was not the right approach either -- pretty obviously. She would freeze up and need her mother RIGHT THEN.
Anyway, that's the only experience I have with it, so I'm not really relating to what you're talking about with a kid who is 7 years old and truly NEEDS to nurse. I picture this frightened little girl. I wonder if she turned out okay. I wonder what in her life caused her to be so frightened. I wonder if maybe she was just built that way. I have no clue.
And I'm sure you aren't really talking about a kid like that when you say you've known kids that needed to nurse at night at age seven. But then, I'm not sure what kind of kid that would be. I haven't experienced it, so I'm not saying it's wrong. I just don't get it.
And if I do have a child with that need, it sort of worries me that I might not recognize it.
I still remember the day that my father decided I should give up my favorite stuffed animal. I've resented that act (he threw it away!!!) ever since. Now, I also turned out well adjusted and happy and I loved my father and haven't really focussed my life on my parent's shortcomings. So maybe he did the right thing? Or maybe I would've turned out even MORE well adjusted and happy if he'd let me keep my stuffed lion for another few months and given it up on my own. I don't know. Never will know.
I think kids are probably a lot more resilient than we tend to think. And probably weaning a kid whether they want to be weaned or not is not that bad for them. I can see situations where the kid could become the target of other kids at school if they found out he or she was still suckling at age 7. I can imagine that would end up being a powerful incentive to stop the behavior too.
I guess I really don't have much to add here. I'm just rambling. The bottom line is that parents MUST decide what is best for their children. And most kids do seem to turn out okay even when the parents don't do whatever the current "best advice" tells them.
Or maybe everyone is about equally screwed up, so it's not really noticeable until a person turns into a serial killer or a talk show host.
Or a politician.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
By the way, Ela, you really are eloquent and I appreciate your willingness to share your expertise here.
And rivka, I didn't really think you were lecturing. I just figure y'all were going to get impatient with me pretty soon because I have this mental block about breastfeeding toddlers on up. But it's not your problem. And it's probably something I will have to live through before I really get it. I'm just not that good at understanding stuff like this unless I experience it.
I have a friend who has a VERY SENSITIVE child, for example. He can't let him read Ender's Game because the kid would "freak out." I think the boy is 10 now. And I know my friend and his wife are GREAT parents, so it's not like I don't think they are doing the right thing. I just don't get it. And no amount of words on a BB are going to get me there. Maybe five minutes alone with the kid and and I'd figure it out. But reading about it in the abstract is just not doing it for me.
Of course, I would never say anything insensitive to the parents. But I know myself well enough to realize I would be worried about the kid anyway.
If I wasn't so out of shape and nearsighted, I might've made a very good Spartan.
Hmm...gotta work on that...
I want my stuffed lion back!!! Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Bob, maybe "need" is the wrong word to use when talking about longterm breastfeeding. The child you describe in the Big Brother/Big Sister program sounds as though she was in a program that just didn't fit her needs. I don't really think that has anything to do with the reasons that parents chose to let older children nurse.
Nursing is a relationship between the mother and child, and weaning is a process that begins the first time the child receives a food that is not his mother's milk. Some parents just decide to be relaxed and let the child decide when it's time to quit. In most cases that I have seen, it isn't a pressing "need" of the type you describe that causes a parent to let the child continue breastfeeding. As romanylass mentioned above, sometimes it is allergies that prompts a mother to allow longterm breastfeeding to continue.
It's not that the child "can't" stop - if the mother really wants the child to wean, she can encourage weaning or make an agreement with the child about when to stop.
Weaning by mutula agreement is what I did with my daughter, who nursed till age 4 1/2. First we decided to stop at Thanksgiving; she told me it was "too soon" so we revised the stop date to Chanukah, at which time she did stop. My son nursed for 3 yrs, and I encouraged him to wean because I was nervous about a medication I was on at the time. You have met both my kids, spent the weekend with them, even. Maybe that will help give you a new perspective on longterm nursing.
Parenting is tough, but, fortunatley, children are very resilient. We all make mistakes and have made decisions or treated our children, at times, in ways we wish we could undo, or take back. I have tried to be sensitive to my children's needs, but I am sure there are things they remember, like your teddy bear being taken away, that they resent. Fortunately, I think they recognize that their father and I love them and are trying to do the best we can for them. There is love and respect between us and our children, even as there is sometimes eyerolling over certain individual acts or events.
Some kids are sensitive, Bob, and parents who are paying attention learn to know their children's needs. I am sure you will do, when you are fortunate enough to become a father. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
If my kids turn out as great as yours, I'll be happy.
In fact, I'll be happy with them no matter what. But don't tell them that.
You are very Ela-quent.
I suppose part of the "secret" is to not make a big deal out of it anyway.
And it was a lion, not a teddy bear. I could've given up a teddy bear no problem. Lions, on the other hand...
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
romanylass, I have no idea what brand it was -- I meant that particular style of pump (not bicycle, not trigger). I bought mine second-hand (yes, I sterilized it), and it was great. Didn't take the place of my electric pump when I was gone for the day, but good for when I just needed a couple ounces for the baby's cereal, or for backup when I didn't have the electric pump with me.
Actually, Bob, while in theory I have no problem with kids nursing to age 4 (or older, even), I would be uncomfortable doing so myself. I've had lots of friends do it, but when it gets to be near the end of that second year, even though I love nursing my kids, and cannot imagine NOT breastfeeding a child (short of medical necessity), I get tired.
But that's me, and it's something that I did wrestle with when dealing with child number three (it wasn't really an issue with the other two). So I do see where you're coming from.
And I'm so sorry about your lion. (((((Bob))))) My ex, who was bottle-fed, tells a story about his third birthday. He had made a deal with his mom that he would give up bottles on his birthday -- months before, when it was a loooong time away. And he came downstairs that morning, knowing that there would not be a warm bottle waiting for him to snuggle in his favorite chair with. There wasn't. So he just kinda sat in the chair, a bit forlorn.
Interesting that he still strongly remembers this, while my brother, who made a deal with my mom that he'd be weaned by three (as well as start using real words and the toilet), weaned with no real trauma a few weeks early, and has no memory of it now. *shrug*
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't understand... Why would it be best to take the kid's favourite stuffed animal away? I wonder whatever happened to mine. Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
You know what I really hate. People who give their infants sugar water. Everyone I know who does this has kids with completely rotted teeth. Toddlers without a tooth in their mouth! Seriously, what is wrong with people?
Anyway, I've decided I have no problem with women breastfeeding in public. Especially if they are consenting adults. And they let me watch.
Men breastfeeding in public, however, really does squick me out. I know, it's my problem and I should just get over it, but I can't.
Anyway, I've held off on those jokes for over 3 pages, so I hope you don't mind.
I think the guy in Boon's original post was a jerk and we should smack him upside the head and call him names.
I will let my kids keep their stuffed animals for as long as they want to.
I hope my little ones are weaned and potty-trained by age two, but I'm not going to stress out over it or give them a complex if they don't make it. If they aren't weaned by the time they are teenagers, I'm putting my foot down.
If I still have control over my extremities.
And I remember to be upset about this.
At the very least, they'd better be willing to share.
by the way, does breast milk taste good? It sounds rather revolting -- warm milk...blech...
Is it good in coffee?
(c'mon don't pretend you haven't tried it...)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's very sweet and a bit watery, to adult tastebuds.
As for toilet-trained by age two . . . um, good luck with that.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Okay, I'll give the little tyke some extra time for toilet training. But I'm charging for the extra diapers.
by the way, does the diaper genie handle those adult size diapers?
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Does it work in recipes just like regular cow's milk? I mean, if you were baking a cake or some brownies or something...
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:I hope my little ones are weaned and potty-trained by age two
Just for the record, Bob, potty-trained by age 2 is a bit early. Many kids are just not physiologically ready til 2 1/2. And keep in mind the disadvantage of a potty-trained 2 year old - you have to know where all the bathrooms are and find them fast, cause a toddler can't hold it and doesn't know he has to go till he REALLY has to go.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
O_o Probably would have to adjust for the extra sweetness. I never tried.
It does have the advantage of being parve (neither dairy nor meat).
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
This kid is too old.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yozhik, I disagree. He may be -- but since neither you nor I have actually met him or his mom, I don't think we get to make that decision.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I don't get why they had to report her to the authorities... There are people who do a lot worse who don't even get a slap on the wrist... And who cares if a kid wants to carry around a blanket? What do they mean by mature ways of comforting themselves anyway?
Posted by Papa Moose (Member # 1992) on :
From that article:
quote:Critics have said Stuckey is really serving her own needs, not Kyle's, and should find other ways to reassure her son.
Stuckey says that's not the case at all.
"You don't nurse to serve your own needs when you've got a small child clawing at you because he's so upset and wants to nurse," she said today. "It's not about your needs, it's about putting your child first."
Sorry, but that's a load of crap. I don't know enough to make a judgment as to where one ought to draw the line at breastfeeding, but at least the way she's explaining herself here, she's full of it. Her son is eight. We aren't talking about a "small child" anymore, unless she still thinks of him that way, in which case the fact that he's "clawing at you because he's so upset" at age eight indicates some issues of concern, and imhyesco allowing him to nurse in that case is not a solution. It's parenting on credit, and she or someone else is gonna have to pay it back with interest.
[/rant]
--Pop
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Pop, and the fact that he was taken away from her for two years might not play a role here? Requiring her to take parenting classes and learn other methods of comforting her son might be appropriate. Taking him out of her custody, going solely on the basis of this article, seems to me to be an over-reaction by a judge who is squicked out by breastfeeding.
Now, this whole "he wants to wean but his mom wouldn't let him" angle -- that worries me, but I wonder how much of that came from the kid, and how much from an adult putting words in his mouth. *shrug* As I said, I don't think we know enough to judge the situation.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Random boob funny:
My sister-in-law is very young now (six) and was nursed until she was three or four years old. She refered to breasts as "nerds". After she had been weaned I had my son and was nursing him discreetly at my mother-in-law's house. Her daughter ran to the fridge and brought a jug of milk. She told me that it was "for my nerds".
[ June 27, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*giggle* PSI, that's precious. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Ok, yeah, I'm really squicked out by the 8 y/o breastfeeding. I fully support breastfeeding, and nursed Boy Opera until he was 18 months. I don't know - something about it just doesn't seem right to me. Boy Opera is 9 now, and I can't imagine him asking to nurse, nor would I want him to.
space opera
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Porteiro Head is right. Here in Brazil breastfeeding a baby in public is very normal. I really don't know why. Maybe it's our hotter climate, or maybe brazilians are less prudish than other people...really don't know.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
8 and still nursing is strange... But, is it so bad for someone to keep their security blanket? What's wrong with that?
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I changed the title...I thought this was more appropriate. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
When a child is old enough to understand that boobs are not just for nursing, then they are old enough to stop. The last thing in the world you'd want is to have your child thinking about your chest in some way besides "food". And for those of you out there who think that an eight-year-old doesn't think that way, you're wrong.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I think it depends on the eight-year-old, and what they've been exposed too. (No pun intended.)
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Not all 8 year olds think that way.
I think it's at least possible that this woman is right.
And I think taking her child away (it was six months six days, not 2 years) was a dumb thing to do.
I think it'd be important to take some time before deciding what to do, if anything, about it.
But she's done one thing I can't possibly support, and that is turn her kid into a crusade. If this was just about the kid, I think a reasonable reaction would be to lay low and not go on National TV to talk about it. I find her reasons for taking this to the media to be rather silly.
And "to the best of her knowledge he hasn't been teased about it" is far from comforting to me. I think once people see this on TV (or on the web, or whatever), the kid is in for some major crap from his school mates.
Of course, he'll probably wean himself at that point.
But what a crappy situation she's placing him in by going public.
IMHO.
Her crusade to make breastfeeding more acceptable is not worth it. If she really cares about her kid, that is.
Oh, and did you all notice that she pointed to "other countries" and said how they routinely breastfeed until 6 years old. How is that a justification for going until 8 years old? Am I missing something? I think she'd have been better off to just say "we're doing fine, leave us alone"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, I'm not sure now why I thought it said 2 years -- sorry.
And I agree, turning her kid into a platform is unforgivable. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I agree, Bob. When I read that, I thought, well, other countries eat dogs too, hmm? As for the teasing....whoa, it's gonna be bad. As I said, Boy Opera is 9, and while he probably wouldn't tease to the face, he'd definately think this kid was a weirdo.
space opera
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Re: 8-yr-olds-
I didn't mean that all 8-yr-olds think about sex. Obviously a child that doesn't know about sex or the role breasts play can BE thinking about that. I'm talking more about the physical part of it...meaning that children can be stimulated by the sight of a naked parent without understanding the why or wherefore. There has been alot of study done on the way a child views his parent (esp. of the opposite sex) and we can see that kids have several different ways that they relate to their parent. As strange as it may seem, children begin their sexual development very early on, and most of that is based on their relationship with their mother or father. I can't prove it, but it does seem like a male child would have difficulty developing normally in his relationships with the opposite sex if his physical relationship with his mother were to carry on for too long.
Posted by ak (Member # 90) on :
"breastgeeding" is more appropriate? Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I've been thinking about the resilient nature of children, and the whole "well adjusted & happy" thing. There was this kid in my building in NYC. His mother used to write and distribute a newsletter talking about how Jews were taking over the country, blacks were polluting our pure race, and we should kill them all. His father was fired for misusing the University's resources (basically, he xeroxed the things for her -- enabler, I guess). I was always worried about this kid. He looked like the perfect Aryan ideal. Tall, blond, blue eyed, muscular, etc. I figured, "oh, his mind is poisoned and he'll end up just not fitting into polite society."
I saw him kissing his girlfriend one day. A black girl from the neighborhood. I got a great chuckle out of that. It was like "ah, you're good." LOL.
I figure if a kid can grow up to reject the parents' nonsense even when it must be nightly poured down upon them, then it's proabably true that kids can overcome just about anything.
Except physical abuse, I imagine.
Ah well. Not really relevant. I have no idea if this kid was breastfed.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote: it does seem like a male child would have difficulty developing normally in his relationships with the opposite sex if his physical relationship with his mother were to carry on for too long.
Well, I do know a guy who slept with his mother (purely sleeping, not actually DOING anything) all through college.
Of course, he's gay, but he is a happy and well-adjusted gay man.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
You were aware, Bob, that men CAN lactate?
Just thought I'd pass that on.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Really? So can women who've never given birth lactate as well? Hmm...if that's the case, should parents who've adopted an infant attempt to get the woman producing milk so she can breastfeed?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Shigosei, some adoptive moms do manage it. However, it takes (from what I understand) a LOT of dedication, and time, and usually the use of something like a Lact-Aid. But many adoptive moms want to nurse their babies, with additional supplementation, as necessary.
quote: I saw him kissing his girlfriend one day. A black girl from the neighborhood. I got a great chuckle out of that. It was like "ah, you're good." LOL.
Or he's stickin' it to his parents. Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
Both my kids started out breastfeeding, but my wife had to give it up both times because of the medication she was forced to start. I really wish she could have breastfed them both. It was always such a comforting, happy sight to see our little baby being held there and eating so contentedly. I am definitely an advocate for breastfeeding, although I understand that sometimes it just isn't possible. I'll always try to give breastfeeding mothers a smile (without invading their privacy, of course), because it always warms my heart.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Just for the record, most medicines are compatible with breastfeeding. Many doctors are not aware of this, and will automatically tell a mom to stop breastfeeding for many medications, when she could have continued with no problem. Always check with a LLL Leader or a lactation consultant if told to wean or stop breastfeeding temporarily due to meds - we have access to the latest research on which meds can and cannot be used while breastfeeding.
Not saying this was the case in your wife's case, afr, cause I don't know what med she was on. (Nor am I asking, it's none of my business. ) But it's important for women to know that they usually don't have to wean to take medications.
[ June 28, 2004, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
The problem, as far as we could tell, is that there just isn't a lot of research on many meds as far as how they affect the baby during breastfeeding. Nobody wants to be the test subject. We just didn't want to take chances, and the indications on most meds say breastfeeding moms shouldn't take them.
The breastfeeding schedule itself was too rigorous for my wife after birth. She simply could not make it without a full night's sleep. For both our babies, I spent night after night sleeping in the living room near the bassinet with a bottle ready to warm up. It was hard, but worth the effort.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
quote:the indications on most meds say breastfeeding moms shouldn't take them.
Keep in mind that the information in the PDR is written by the drug companies. They are writing this stuff to cover their butts. Many meds that have info in the PDR saying breastfeeding moms shouldn't take them are approved by the American Academy of Pediatrics list as "compatible with breastfeeding." And many doctors go with the PDR, they are not really interested in researching it themselves, unless the mother researches and brings the relevant information to the doctor's attention.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
We did our best to research the different meds, but there is so little research done on breastfeeding moms. My wife's doctor had no better information than we could find ourselves. No one wants to be a test subject when their baby's health could be at risk. We found the most honest information on various forums, by moms using the meds, but the results and opinions were mixed and didn't make us feel too confident.
In light of my wife's health after the births, we decided both times that it would be best just to bottle feed. It was a very difficult decision both times, and had to be made in the matter of a day both times.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
About 8 year olds thinking about sex... My just-turned-seven-year-old surprises me sometimes. I mean, he doesn't 'like girls' much yet, but one day I was tying his martial arts belt and sort of bent over him, accidentally placing his nose right in the neckline of my shirt. Bent over like that, it put my cleavage at eye level.
He stood really still, but said, "Hubba, hubba!"
Now, I'm ure he doesn't remember being breast-fed, but he does remember me feeding his little brother. A few months ago, we wentthrough a bit of a trail when he kept trying to fondle my chest. I know it's interesting and different for little boys, and I understand (sort of) the fascination, but I wasn't comfortable with it. After scoldings for the behavior and an explanation of why those places are private, he stopped.
To be honest, I find the IDEA of nursing an eight-year-old to be really squicky. Just a personal comfort thing, not a value judgement.
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
Why am I thinking about The Last Emperor suddenly?
"She was my butterfly."
Posted by romanylass (Member # 6306) on :
quote:by the way, does breast milk taste good? It sounds rather revolting -- warm milk...blech...
Is it good in coffee?
Weeelll, Bob, that depends on the mom's diet. When Matthew was a babe and I had enough milk to feed triplets in thefreezer, hubby woke up one morning and discovered there was no moo for his latte...asked if he could use some of mine. He said it was way too garlicky! To this day, all my kids love raw garlic, which we credit the garlicky flavor of my milk to.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
1. Men can lactate. True, they can, but then their penises fall off and they cry a lot. On the plus side, they never go bald.
2. Re: garlic latte. Ah...I do believe that if Dana breastfeeds they will develop a fondness for garlic and home-grown herbs. It's a beautiful thing.
You should move to Gilroy, CA. Or, sell your milk there.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
One of the funniest things I have ever seen was on "Providence." The sister was making the mom's clam chowder recipe. (The mom is kind of a visiting ghost in the show) Anyway, she leaves the finishing for her family. She tells them to put the cream in at a certain time. They do, and they eat the soup. It is the best clam chowder they have ever had. The sister goes back to the fridge to get her breast milk for the baby, and realizes they put it in the soup.
So, I guess it tastes good!
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Mine tended to be very sweet. It was also bluish in color, for some reason. *shrug*
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Blue-ish is common, is sort of the way that skim milk can be blue-ish. (But not for the same reason -- breast milk is actually fairly high in the fat babies need to thrive.) I hear pinkish and orange-ish are not too rare as well.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Is it blue for the reason that bleu cheese is blue?
<shudders>
Okay, now I'm thinking it might be useful in making Ranch Dressing.
LOL...
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: Is it blue for the reason that bleu cheese is blue?
O_O
EWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Now I'm REALLY squicked out! Breast milk is for the BABY! Not for chowder or coffee or salad dressing or baking a cake or churning homemade ice cream or whatever...
:squick: :squick again:
[ June 28, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Yozhik ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Um cows milk is for the calves too.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that adults ingesting human milk is probably a bad idea. There's probably a huge chance of spreading disease that way. I mean, body fluids!!
Of course, that can't really be true or babies would be harmed by it...
But still...seems like a bad idea.
I prefer pasteurized anyway, no matter what source it is from.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*crosses "breast milk latte" off list of things to serve at the next Shinda*
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:It does have the advantage of being parve (neither dairy nor meat).
Does this mean that you could eat a cheeseburger, IF the cheese were made from breast milk?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Presumably. But it's far easier to make soy cheese -- or at least, it's easier to buy it commercially made.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Once again, soy sucks the life out of a perfectly fun thread on Hatrack.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
aaaauuuuugggghhhh Soy Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Soy vey.
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
amen
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Which reminds me. I bought one of those soy yogurt things once--I think the brand was "Silk," or something like that. It was blueberry flavored.
It had one of the nastiest aftertastes I have ever experienced. I offered it to the dog, but she didn't want it either (making this one of four known foods she will not eat: the others are raw red beets, lemons, and week-old crab legs).
Posted by Little_Doctor (Member # 6635) on :
soy is the devils work
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I've never bought soy yogurt. I don't even remember whether any are kosher. We do go through a respectable amount of tofu, TVP, soy and rice milk, and assorted other soy products. Occasionally I do buy the Tofutti "cheese," and I have made cheeseburgers that way (once, I think). I prefer to do it the other way -- soy "meat" patty with real cheese on top.
Yes, I do live in California. Why do you ask?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
OK, I do NOT mean this to be a smarty-pants, but Rivka, is breast milk kosher? I mean, I figure a woman's own would be, but if she had to go to a breast milk bank because she couldn't nurse for some reason, would it be kosher?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Generally, one would try to get breast milk from other kosher-observant women. If that were unavailable, I guess it would depend on how important it was that the baby get breast milk. (Health issue? How serious? Or just personal preference?) It would definitely be a consult-your-rabbi type question.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
So it seems like it would be an issue.
What about formula?
Edit: Yikes!! There is kosher baby formula, but not all of it is good!
[ June 28, 2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Actually, I believe all of the big-name American formulas are kosher.
And yeah, the formula problem in Israel was a big deal. And it ONLY affected the formula from that company that they make for Israel. I think the hysterical "conspiracy" claims have died down by now, though.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
It is scary sometimes, to think how much general trust we humans have to go on.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Just because it's natural doesn't mean it isn't hard, or that you (and your baby) won't have to learn.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
Yep, gettin' me some of those in a week or two. Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I found this article and thought you all might like reading it.
I really admired the woman that fought back against a local pool that scolded her for breastfeeding. She recruited some other young mothers to breastfeed at the pool en masse. Brilliant!
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Apparently that is pretty normal for that part of the world. ![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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I think that's inappropriate. I don't think you should be nursing while driving a car either! (Although, I have, like jexx, nursed a baby in a moving car, with them buckled in.) Both teaching and driving deserve full attention -- and the baby should get some too. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
), I promised that Nathan would be completely weaned at least by the time he went to college. (Edited to add: ![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
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Plus its sooo much better than formula- not just for health, but for your pocketbook.
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*finds large barrel, hides till next day* ![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)