I'll be discussing plot points, don't come in if you don't want to read 'em. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . It's not better than the first. It completes the first. The first movie set up his life and the directions for his future, this movie shows how that works out for him. Or doesn't, as the case may be.
I've praised it in the non-spoiler thread. Here I can bitch about my minor complaints without ruining it for anybody.
My major complaint: Spidey is a smart ass. It's a big part of who he is, that he can talk that freely with the mask on. Besides, it enrages his foes and makes them sloppy. He's a bit snappier here than in the first, but I wanted more. Agreed, most of the action happens too quickly for snappy patter. But there were times and opportunities lost and that bugged me a bit.
When Pete lost his powers, I thought for sure it was a virus. It would mirror what happened in the comics years back when he faced Doc Ock early on. He had a 24-hour flu that sapped his strength and he went out to fight anyway, getting defeated and unmasked. That would have been a nice homage to the comic. Instead he apparently had a crisis of faith and his powers slipped away. That annoyed me. It annoyed me the same way it annoys me when, in Smallville, Clark's powers can be stripped away and even transferred without much of a fuss. The powers are part of who he is, it's not like someone stole his gym shoes and he can't run anymore. It was, to me, a cheap way of dramatizing his inner turmoil. Woulda been just as easy to make it the flu, showing him as still human, still flawed.
John Jameson got stiffed big time. At least in the novelization he and MJ have a moment where she confesses her love for Peter and John lets her go. Gave him his dignity back in a way that the movie version didn't. MJ wouldn't just leave a note. She'd tell him.
Remember, I loved the movie and will probably be seeing it again tonight. Just wanted to get my fanboy venting out.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
:wallows in the spoilers: Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
I laughed out loud at the end. The last five minutes were quite heavy-handed, I thought. Ooo, exorcising demons... wait, there's a room full of Green Goblin stuff? Didn't see that coming Oh look, she ran away from her wedding. How cute.
Other than that, I loved it. The "Raindrops Keep Fallin' on My Head" was out of place but somehow worked. Very good.
Final rating: 2.5/4 for quality (come on, not all the acting was there...), 3.5/4 for fun (stupid ending), total 6/8
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
SPOILERS
I agree, Chris...Spidey is a smart-ass. But then, I think he sort of worked up to that. If memory serves, he wasn't as smart-alecky when he first put on the suit. It took awhile.
Perhaps they were worried about the film seeming more shallow if they included the almost constant sarcastic remarks that are one of Spidey's trademarks. I can see why they didn't-in the comics, it's like every second panel has one.
I really loved the way they handled Otto. It was another complicated villain (I felt the same way about Willem's Goblin).
I think they way they should've dealt with the crisis was have him sick *and* doubting. They could've dovetailed nicely, since the sickness offers Peter a decent excuse to hang up the suit once and for all. Having it be *entirely* psychosomatic was a bit much.
May's reaction to Peter's mostly-confession was spot-on. I was also shocked when they said another person died in that fiery building. Well-done.
J4
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I think the snarky Spidey was decent to be missing. He did some of this in the first movie, as was appropriate (he was cocky, then). In this movie, he is waaaay over tired and stressed out and Spidey was now the third job, not avocation. I think the next one will have a bit more of a confident and "whole" Spidey...until things fall apart, naturally.
Otto was great. I like my movie villains being a bit more than the evil ones in comics...those mostly need to come back to do evil again, but movie ones usually have an arc to complete. So complex is great and Molina, as always, was wonderful.
J. Jonah stole his scenes, as always. "Your fired. Wait, no, you're unfired."
I like the set up of new villains for next movie...could be partially Hobgoblin (wasn't that the Son of Green Goblin?...missed some of those) but wasn't one origin of "Venom" as a space alien that came back with an astronaut...one that, oh, might have a thing about competing with spider guys...and then, oh, killing them.
Train sequence, especially the end, was almost one of my favorites. I love the NYC love affair with Spidey that is in the comics from time to time. The best was when after doing the near impossible of stopping the train, he begins to fall only to be helped back by citizens (the "catch" was the best part). The "carrying over the head" thing might have been a bit much, but it worked for sappy ol' me.
Questions: Did Aunt May figure out Pete was Spidey? That monologue in driveway implied as much. My Spidey lore is weak, especially recent stuff...does May know in the "adult" (meaning, not kid in Ultimate) version of Spidey? I know MJ does at some point (sheesh...maybe before the wedding?)
Interesting about the comparisons to "Smallville." Millar and Gough were listed with Story credits for this movie (along with Chabon...do you think he did much? He is being given a lot of credit for the "human" element of the story).
Gosh, I got to see this again and soon. My wife wasn't able to have the stamina for the midnight movie so I think we might do the flick this weekend. Great stuff.
fil
[ June 30, 2004, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
In the comics, Harry was the second Green Goblin...there have been several versions, including the annoying resurrection of the original. The original Hobgoblin's identity is currently unknown (I think) though for a while he was Ned Leeds (a reporter); they retconned him back out.
Aunt May currently knows who Spider-Man is, after discovering a trashed costume lying around after Spidey was nearly killed and Peter came home to collapse in bed. Previously, "Aunt May" revealed that she had known for years, but it turned out she was an actress hired by the resurrected Norman Osborn.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
I was a bit disappointed, but only because all the reviews I had seen made it out to be the next Lord of the Rings. It also bothers me that Spiderman is physically inferior to the villians he faces. Goblin's glider had to turn on him and Doc Ock was never really beaten at all. But overall it was a very enjoyable movie.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Point of order: Spider-Man defeated the Goblin in the first movie. Gobby was down and pleading. The glider killed him, but Spider had already won the fight.
And, in the comics Ock is usually more powerful than Spidey. His arms certainly are. Spidey generally wins by trickery, by getting through to beat on Doc himself, or by getting the arms out of the way and immobilized.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Part of the thrill of watching Spider-Man in action (or reading about him) is that Spidey is not a "natural" hero--he's not a myth made flesh like Superman. He has to overcome overwhelming odds, and we sympathize with him, because sometimes our own lives are like that on a smaller scale. Mythic heroes can be inspiring, but they're hard to identify with.
For the most part, Marvel has made its reputation trading off ironic heroes like Spidey, whereas DC has tended to focus on the mythic end. This division into niches is what allows them both to remain the giants of the comics industry instead of one dominating and eventually destroying the other. The plus is that it gives us a more diverse population of superheroes to look up to (and newcomers can more easily see the gaps that remain to come up with good comics ideas).
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The original Hobgoblin's identity is currently unknown (I think) though for a while he was Ned Leeds (a reporter); they retconned him back out
The Ned Leeds as Hobgoblin had a major weakness, because a non-superhuman person broke Ned's arm when he died. The Hobgoblin creator had left, and they missed this little plot point.
He came back and did a mini-series that took all his original clues and fulfilled them. It was one of the Kingsleys (brothers who had hired MJ to do modeling work at some point). This was all in Hobgoblin Lives, and was a great return to the mid-80s Spider-Man days.
My big beef was the movie was the mask coming off all the time. Spidey doesn't take off his mask that much. He just doesn't.
I did like that the movie showed exactly why Doc Ock is so powerful, and what Spidey's true strengths in combat are (the speed and the spider sense).
I give the movie 3.75 out of 4 stars - best movie I've seen in years.
Dagonee
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I don't know, I thought Spidey pretty much beat the Ock and had him down for the count and left himself open to get to the "real" Otto...Ock was lying in a pool, pretty much drained. "Defeat" doesn't have to mean killing him. Ibid with previous poster's statement about Goblin.
Thanks for clarification of Hobgoblin.
One other little bit that I thought was inspired and fairly subtle. MJ was in a wonderful play, "The Importance of Being Ernest." Probably most on HTF are familiar with it (a better read stop on the internet is probably not to be found) but the whole "2 men with two identities each fighting for the affections of one woman (sort of)" bit was too cool, even if never really expounded upon directly in the film.
Also agreed, Spidey is rarely the purely powerful hero vs. his villains. Sure, he has spidey strength and all, but he gets to fight Hulk, Rhino, Sandman, Doc Ock, Goblin, sometimes the entire Fantastic Four, that lizard guy, etc...and he is almost always the underdog and that is why we love him. Weaker villains usually have something else up their sleeves like Vulture (now removed from the movie continuum, thank you Mr. Goblin), Electro (still a possibility since Oscorp can't help but muck around with power and humanity) and Punisher.
Wow, didn't realize there was a fake Aunt May. Did they kill the original off? Or was this one of those lame plotlines that people just begin to forget about and act like it never happened?
fil
[ June 30, 2004, 09:12 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Yeah, it was one of the lame plotlines. It was part of the recovery from the clone plotline, specifically--lame in itself but sadly necessary. The real May turned out to have been kidnapped by Osborn, not too long after the fake died of a weak heart.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Re: Spider-Man unmasked. It's happened in the original canon, it's just more noticeable here because as far as Peter's development goes, about 10 years of the comic were squashed into two movies.
I did start laughing in the emotional train scene when the New Yorkers are looking fondly down on their stricken hero. I kept waiting for his landlord to stick his head in. "Rent? Rent?"
Posted by The Wiggin (Member # 5020) on :
As far s Villins in 3 go 2 set up for atleast three more Goblin 2/Harry Osborne, Venom(brought back from space by John Jameson), and The Lizard(Dr. Connors) Other then the few conplaints about spidys wise crack not being as big as they should be, I mean who doesn't love seeing the Goblin being called Snacky, I loved it at least as good as the first.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I really really really loved this movie. Really.
And I so did not notice Dr. Connors. Also, I doubt it will be in another movie, but John Jameson means that there's a potential for Wolfman action.
Also, scene I mentioned in the other thread, Hal Sparks was the guy who got in the elevator with Spidey and complimented him on his Spidey costume. The idea of New York always amuses me. A place where stuff like that wouldn't make you bat an eyelash.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
It's only just out here in Australia. Saw it today, unfortunately it's also school holidays here, so there's lots of schoolkids floating around. A bunch of 15-year old girls were in the cinema laughing loudly at the slightest hint of emotion.
I threw my gatorade bottle at them halfway through the movie.
Didn't make another sound. I highly recommend it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
We had baby cry just when Peter is confronting Harry; I missed the last thing each said to the other.
You can't throw a gatorade bottle at a baby, nor at the mother holding it.
Dagonee
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
"this is bigger than both of us"
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I agree. Spider-Man takes off his mask too often. The way this is explained in the comics is usually his Spider-Sense telling him when someone is watching. So therefore he can tell just standing there whether he's alone on a rooftop, or someone's got a spy satellite or binoculars on him.
I don't think they play up the -sense enough, which is really what enables Spider-Man to go toe-to-toe with so many people. His incredible agility and speed aren't just due to his super-powers including super-speed and -agility, but because of his spider-sense. It's like in Star Wars when they talk about 'Jedi reflexes'.
As for Spider-Man being the underdog, in Amazing they recently told of how that was one of the reasons why Peter Parker was chosen for the radioactive spider bite. This doesn't apply to the film, of course, but it's said that *because* Parker spent most of his life prior to the bite getting his butt kicked, always outnumbered by stronger enemies, that he would never give up once he had the ability to fight back, even against stronger enemies.
I liked the inclusion of web-balls, or at least small web-bursts used as projectiles and not exactly web-lines.
I liked the scene with the people helping the hero, even though I think it was a bit overdone. But at the time, I was feelin' it:)
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Oh, yes. Meant to comment on the web-balls. Nice touch.
Dagonee
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: You can't throw a gatorade bottle at a baby, nor at the mother holding it.
...and this is why going to the midnight movie is the only way to see it in the theaters to me any more. Though we did have some kids that giggled nervously when things got emotional (youngin's not ready for it yet, I guess). They tittered a bit when MJ and Petey got doe-eyed, but that was okay. It was during the heavier emotional scenes with Aunt May (especially the confession) that the teens got uncomfortable (and had to giggle). Not really annoying. The large midnight audience (sold out) makes up for it by lots of applause, laughter, cheering and no cell phones, babies, light pens and what not. If you spend the time to stay up until 3 AM to see a movie, you are wanting the money's worth and it worked.
fil
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Did anyone lese notice that when the effects are used as part of the movie, and not as "look how cool we are," that they add to the movie instead of detract? The scene where Spidey is blocking debris being thrown by Doc Ock was amazing, and there was no sense that we've left a cut scene and entered a "fight scene."
Plus, the snatching people out of the air and webbing them in place while going at full speed was incredible!
Dagonee fil, I had to be up at 6 today - no midnight show for me!
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I was pleasantly surprised at the crowd-reaction, actually. I showed up at 10:30 at the movie theater, foolishly thinking it'd be like the FIRST spider-man. Largely uncrowded.
First thing I saw was a dozen, yes a DOZEN school busses parked in front.
But they were quiet, and it was a great way to go about it, since the teachers and chaperones were there to keep what otherwise probably would've been very unruly kids quiet.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Speaking of those webs, they play a couple of the common comic tricks there, too. Spidey sends out a web, and suddenly it splits into a spider-web formation, just from a single line and at a great distance, too.
[/quibble]
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I think they did Spidey sense enough for the movie. In the comic, especially the Lee years, they used it too much, I think (though I would love to have seen the 'half-Pete/half-Spidey mask' effect when his sense goes off out of costume! ). I think you just have to assume that it is always going and not obvious. They make it obvious when it really needs to be with the diner/car scene being the most obvious (and, even though they showed it in the previews, it still really worked well). They don't make it obvious but you know it is working when Spidey ducks in time to avoid a bridge or at times avoids a punch or two (though with 6 limbs coming at you, even spidey sense makes it hard).
I think the mask thing was okay, too. Again, this is a movie, not a comic book. I think there is still a desire to connect to the character of Spider Man and that is more difficult when you only see Spidey being Spidey and Petey being Petey but never the twain meet. I think that was a complaint in the last movie...we never SEE Peter much as Spidey...just a CGI costume jumping around. It works to have more actor exposure. It was also more symbolic for the story, too...he was leading a double life at the start of the movie (triple, even). By the end of the film, they are successfully rolled into one (Petey AND Spidey love MJ and she loves both as well). Works for me.
I agree...the train scene in retrospect was sappy as all get out, but I also must say I was suckered in the whole time. If the whole movie was THAT sappy it wouldn't have worked, but a nice bit of it worked just fine.
fil
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Fil,
I agree, showing the sense used ALL the time would be too much. Perhaps just an example fight-sequence, to give people a sense of what's going on.
*shrug* I'm seeing it >1 again, though:)
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: fil, I had to be up at 6 today - no midnight show for me!
Poseur! I had to get up, too (yesterday for me, actually). I was surprised I did so well the day after with only 3 hours sleep. Maybe it was the pent up energy used to keep me from spoiling the movie for my wife, even though I just had to tell her about it! I got out "It was cool, and..." before her glare had MY Spidey sense tingling...trouble brewing, time to get out of Gotham.
fil
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yeah, yeah.
Did anyone else love the ending? "Go get 'em, Tiger." He's running out on her again, but this time she knows why and that makes all the difference. Plus, he whoops while web-swinging, which we haven't heard all movie.
Dagonee
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: Did anyone else love the ending? "Go get 'em, Tiger."
Yes! Great ending. Great counter to the first movie's more "down" ending. Yes, it had the hopeful "I'm Spiderman" bit, but also ended in a cemetary with him walking away from MJ. This opposite was great.
fil
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I loved that, too...also how they handled the almost-obligatory 'tiger' mention from MJ. The classic quote would have been, by now, too tricky to handle. And it would've made MJ look pretty bad, too. (Then again, in the regular universe, MJ wasn't an awesome person when she first showed up anyway).
And you know, come to think of it, they make MJ look pretty bad again in her handling of the wedding, as is mentioned elsewhere. I guess the filmakers just didn't find a spot to include her smoothing things over as best she could, and went with the quick and dramatic note.
How Jonah handles Parker dating the woman who jilted his son might be interesting Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
"Tell the caterer not to open the caviar."
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm in the middle of moving, so I'm not going to be able to see this one until Saturday.
How do they illustrate the spider sense in action? Does the Maguire just look like he's hearing something, and then duck at the appropriate moment, or do they have little black worms coming out of his head, or what?
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I fell in love with the movie at the opening credits. I was utterly enchanted by the way they blended scenes from the previous film with comic-book style art. I knew then that this was going to be an AWESOME film. And then nothing in the movie disappointed me after that.
One great scene was when Doc Ock was carrying off MJ. I recognized comic-book frames in that scene, but they were seamlessly part of the continuous live action. How did they DO that? It was beautiful.
Also, I had a really hilarious time because the actor playing Doc Ock looks just like my brother-in-law. Same face, same expressions and mannerisms. My husband agreed. So it was very surreal watching all Doc Ock's scenes.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Have you seen Alfred Molina in other things? I'm really impressed by his acting, generally. He did a great job as Diego Rivera in Frida.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
I also loved how geeky Tobey Maguire can look. When Spidey quit, and Peter went back to school, you couldn't see the hotness. Which is how people are in real life. They dress weird, they fall down, they wear stupid smiles. And then they get naked, with sincerity in their eyes, and a striving to make good happen in this world, and they are beautiful. Tobey Maguire is not "hot" in a Tom Cruise or Johnny Depp fashion. He is the most "real" of the actors I've seen, which is what makes me fall in love with him and his work.
I did think that the beginning was almost too painful. I needed Peter Parker to have something good in his life.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Actually, Ryuko, I read somewhere that there was the possibility for John Jameson as the Man-Wolf in the next movie. So don't freak out just yet.
Dag, I had thought I heard him whooping several times, including once or twice when there was no reason for it except the thrill of doing it.
Maybe it's just me, but a few times the emotional dialogue semed kind of strained. I could just be overly sensitive--my "sappy-sense" kicks in too easily.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote:I read somewhere that there was the possibility for John Jameson as the Man-Wolf in the next movie.
Gads, I hope not. Who needs a werewolf (there wolf) in a superhero movie...we have had two this year and that is enough. I still vote for the space alien Venom, probably the more popular villain with the younger crowd. I was never into Venom, though. The "alien" take would work but the "science gone bad" version in the Bendis Ultimate Spidey would fit better with the movies.
I also enjoyed the Alex Ross painted comic recap of the first movie in the credits. I assume those will be available soon, if they aren't already (maybe in the comic adaptation of the movie...which is odd, since the movie is an adaptation of the comic...mind...seizing up...).
So, if they do Man Wolk (ugh) maybe young Harry will go with a new Oscorp failed experiment and HE will become the Venom character? Actually, I think that might be the way it happened in the Ultimate Line of Spidey, come to think of it.
I didn't read much Spidey as a young laddie but was that scene on the doctor's table (where Ock...or his arms...killed all the doctors) done in the old canon? I know it is a part of the new canon as they did it in an Ultimate version of the story (when he "teamed up" with other villains).
Who is Sparks? The friend I went with knew the guy in the elevator as well. Never hoid of him. Loved the scene, though. I liked that Raimi took his time to let the camera go a little bit longer to get the sense of discomfort. Same with the broom closet scene at the beginning. Very funny.
fil
[ July 01, 2004, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: fil ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You may be right, Mabus, but any prior whooping went unnoticed by me. Either way, the sheer joy in his sound and movement, just because MJ knows and approves of his being Spidey, was a great way to end.
Got to second the opening credits - they sucked me in immediately, and I liked that there was no "previously on Spider-Man" type of flashback.
The emotional dialog was strained somewhat for me, but mostly on recollection, not in the moment. The editing was excellent, and, like all good editing, unnoticable on first viewing. Raimi's always used longer continuous shots than most, and he's learned to handle it with deftness now.
By the way, did anyone notice how Peter told his Aunt about Uncle Ben's death. No hint of Spidey around, just raw emotion. That scene could have been in a non-fantasty movie with no changes and been just as powerful.
Amazing.
Oh, I forgot - the Evil Dead II tribute was great. The people in the know loved it, the people who didn't weren't distracted by it because it totally fit the chaos of the scene. Loved Raindrops Keep Falling on my Head, too.
Damn, that was a good movie.
Have to go again.
Dagonee
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Darnit, Jenny, you beat me to it I was going to say that the credits were awesome, and very practical as well. Virtually everyone who's seeing the second one has seen the first one, so you get a "Previously...on Spider-Man!" effect without saying it. And the artwork was awesome.
And you know, Peter was getting some appreciative looks even as mild-mannered Pete and not Spider-Man.
Something I caught the second time seeing it was how Otto (pre-transformation) is talking to Pete about how holding something complicated like love inside can make you sick. Heh.
Edit: Oh! And the scene where Peter walks away from the two guys beating up the littler guy...man. You won't see many films where the hero (much less a superhero movie) does something like THAT. It's one thing to turn away from sirens, quite another to turn away from someone in your face calling for help.
[ July 01, 2004, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
They really know how to show a flawed character without making you despise him - it's becoming a lost art. When he saves the kid without his powers, and then learns someone else died that he probably could have saved had he still had the powers - wow. The look on his face their was enough to convince me Toby was right for the part.
Dagonee
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
Just saw the movie this morning, and to echo - this is a great movie.
It's got it's problems. I was groaning throughout the entire driveway monologue. I could almost feel the grain in the Great Power/Great Responsibility stick against my forehead. It could have been a little less heavyhanded.
But that's a minor gripe. The movie kicks buttock.
I knew there was going to be an Evil Dead tribute in an Ock scene near the beginning, but I was surprised to see how much was actually in there. I was expecting a shot or two, and the chainsaw - what I got was several shots that were cut directly from Evil Dead, down to the blocking, the facial expressions, the heavy breathing, and the flying camera! It was nearly a full minute long!
I was also pleased to see that they approached the identity question at the end of this movie instead of trying to do it in the 3rd. That leaves the 3rd movie a lot more room to do stuff, instead of having to swing the wide bat of exposition near the beginning.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Hal Sparks is a B-list actor/comedian/musician/martial artist, who I think is pretty keen. He was an interim guy in Talk Soup for a while, and he is now one of the major stars of Queer as Folk. He also is a permanent fixture on I Love the 70's/80's/90's. Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
I thought I recognized him from somewheres.
*starts humming I Love the Eighties theme*
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Huh. It was good, but it's not the wildly superior sequel that X-Men II was.
There were a ton of flaws, jesus christ. Since when do are the arms pseudo-AI, let alone capable of taking over Ock's mind? And as someone else mentioned, Parker's taking off his mask disturbingly often -- if he flashes any more people, he needs to be dragged into court.
Obscenely corny train scene. I loved the stopping it and the catching him, but the unconscious rock star bit was disappointing as hell.
I agree, no depth to MJ beyond oh-I-want-him-but-he's-the-"correct"-choice bit.
Annoying Green Goblin routine, too. Why would the kid miraculously discover daddy's playpen, even if discovering Pete's Spider-Man did crack his nut?
Hmm. I'm getting tired of the villain always being evil, too -- with Ock they tried to make it good-man-under-bad-influence, but christ, he went mercenary to get material so he could run an experiment doomed to destroy half the city, and he's willing to kill whomever he needs to (or can) to get it. Stupid as hell. If he really was that ruthless, why not torture the Osborne kid to get the material out of him in the first place?
Oh yeah, my biggest complaint. What the deuce is up with Spider-Man losing his powers because of lack of confidence? They couldn't think up anything better? Mutation would at least be interesting, and workable -- I'm still hoping they go back on their word in the third pic and find out it IS an ongoing mutation.
Heh, that said, I liked it. X-Men 0wn0rz Spider-Man, but still, enjoyable.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
lalo,
how can you say that? both x-films were messes. good stuff, but sooooo superficial.
fallow
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Am I the only person who thought the dialog was terrible?
The bit with Harry saying "You killed my father" had me saying "No! I am your father!" Aaron chimed in with "I am Harry Osborn. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
I can't remember another specific, but I wasn't impressed at all. Most of the dialog just seemed to go on forever without doing anything useful. That said, I loved the bit where Peter and Aunt Mae are talking in the driveway. Rosemary Harris is probably the best actress in the movie.
Also, what was Sam Raimi thinking with all the close ups of the screaming people? I was annoyed with that about the second time they did it.
And the fusion. Let's ignore the rest of the science and skip to the end. In order to stop fusion, they drop it in the river, which is 2/3 hydrogen?
Over all, 2 1/2 stars. It was ok. I'll probably buy the DVD, but it only ranks as decent.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Obviously the idea was to cool it off--fusion requires very high temperatures--but would water do enough to stop it? Any physics people know how to work that out? How much of a reduction in temperature would it take to cool an ongoing fusion reaction until it quit?
(And would water dissociate into hydrogen and oxygen, with the former available for fusion?)
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Wow, Eddie, we usually disagree, but on politics and how ugly you are, not on awesome movies like this! (And hey, that was playful banter. So no one be genuinely offended, OK?)
There *are* comics in which Ock's arms do have AI on their own. Of course, just because they have some AI doesn't make them human-level intelligence. But having them directly hardwired into Otto's brain would lessen the strength of 'will' they needed to overcome Doc's own mind.
No depth to MJ? Were you dead-set to find flaws before you even saw it? I agree, they handled her badly at some points-she did some apparent (even though I think it took place over many months) boyfriend hopping in the first one, and the note-at-the-altar bit was bad-but no depth? I thought she pulled off the desperately torn in love emotion really well. I mean, I empathized with her. She was so frustrated ALL THE TIME. She's got the man o' her dreams, and everytime she's gabbing with him, she's getting mixed signals from hell.
He didn't 'miraculously' discover (one of) the Green Goblin's safehouses. He spent much of his time in the house when Norman was up to his fun and games, and then he gets a psychological visit from dear old dad. When you're playing headgames like that, it's no stretch at all to think that his subconcious might have led him to throw the dagger at the mirror that he had a feeling something was off about.
Yeah, Doc Ock went mercenary, but he didn't think the experiment was doomed to failure. Didn't you listen to his monologue with the arms? Something like, "I couldn't have miscalculated! It was working, wasn't it?" (Which I also thought was well-done. The bafflement, the dismay, seemed dead-on)
And why torture Osborne to get the tritium at all? Osborn offered him something he was interested in doing anyway. "Bring me Spider-Man so I can kill him". Well, Ock *already* didn't like Spider-Man. 'Do this little chore you'd enjoy and I'll give you what you very much want' seems like a good trade to me.
I will say I agree with the loss-of-powers bit. I think they should've mixed that up with the flu, or something, as has been done in the comics numerous times. Just show him in the cold rain once as Spidey, never getting enough sleep, add in some serious emotional weariness, and there you go.
Both X-Men films were good, but they lacked the depth of character and emotion in both Spider-Man 1 & 2, I think. Partially because there are a BUNCH of characters in X-Men, whereas there are no more than two or three major ones at any given shot in Spider-Man. Also because several of the X-Men are pretty boring. But mostly, I think, because we don't get to seem them very vulnerable. The X-Men are X-Men, and they love other X-Men, and fight other X-Men and mutants. Whereas in Spider-Man, Peter Parker is someone we can empathize with (from what we've seen in the films).
-------
Edit: Oh, and as for science...isn't it pretty much accepted that we're looking the other way when it comes to higher science in a film where a genetically-enhanced spider-bite doesn't kill or injure, but inmbues the victim with all sorts of power? Where a fusion-reaction is contained with some metal arms? Where fusion is possible outside a nuclear weapon AT ALL?
It's a comic-book movie, not Mr. Wizard!
[ July 02, 2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
You know, Kirsten Dunst always seems to be getting wet during crucial scenes in these movies.
I approve.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
"it rides up a little in the crotch"
The loss of powers worked for me. Of course, I see depression as being real as any virus. It wasn't a loss of "faith", it was the natural result of being kicked when you are down repeatedly.
Alfred Molina is such a stud.
I thought it was so funny when MJ tries kissing John upside down. Like "maybe the only reason I liked that kiss is because it was upside down." Maybe she's just not a deep person.
The look after Jameson tells his wife to call the caterer is priceless.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I think she was just comparing it to that kiss, which was for her obviously very potent.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:Wow, Eddie, we usually disagree, but on politics and how ugly you are, not on awesome movies like this! (And hey, that was playful banter. So no one be genuinely offended, OK?)
Pff. How could they get offended? It's obviously a joke.
I mean, everyone knows I'm the pretty one in this relationship, right?
Right?
quote:There *are* comics in which Ock's arms do have AI on their own. Of course, just because they have some AI doesn't make them human-level intelligence. But having them directly hardwired into Otto's brain would lessen the strength of 'will' they needed to overcome Doc's own mind.
Oh, right, and isn't it convenient that they happen to be psychotically antisocial artificial arms. Which need a brain, of course, why...?
Pff. Terrible plot line.
quote:No depth to MJ? Were you dead-set to find flaws before you even saw it? I agree, they handled her badly at some points-she did some apparent (even though I think it took place over many months) boyfriend hopping in the first one, and the note-at-the-altar bit was bad-but no depth? I thought she pulled off the desperately torn in love emotion really well. I mean, I empathized with her. She was so frustrated ALL THE TIME. She's got the man o' her dreams, and everytime she's gabbing with him, she's getting mixed signals from hell.
Yeah, that's my point, dude. Didn't you read what I wrote? "I agree, no depth to MJ beyond oh-I-want-him-but-he's-the-"correct"-choice bit." All she has to her crisis is the typical female character oh do I want Peter, the inappropriate-but-right choice, or do I want John, the appropriate-good-guy any girl would want? Gosh, this is a deep puzzle. Let's look angsty and bimbo-esque for the whole film until we find out that gosh, Pete really is the right choice! What a plot twist!
They could've done so much better.
quote:He didn't 'miraculously' discover (one of) the Green Goblin's safehouses. He spent much of his time in the house when Norman was up to his fun and games, and then he gets a psychological visit from dear old dad. When you're playing headgames like that, it's no stretch at all to think that his subconcious might have led him to throw the dagger at the mirror that he had a feeling something was off about.
Ha! Yes, it was a miracle that he discovered the place. He has a vision of his daddy issues, then just happens to throw a dagger through a mirror, which just happens to lead to the Goblin costume and vials of super-soldier serum. Gosh, that's convenient.
quote:Yeah, Doc Ock went mercenary, but he didn't think the experiment was doomed to failure. Didn't you listen to his monologue with the arms? Something like, "I couldn't have miscalculated! It was working, wasn't it?" (Which I also thought was well-done. The bafflement, the dismay, seemed dead-on)
Heh! Are you seriously trying to tell me Doc Ock wasn't portrayed as an evil bastard? Which was the contention I made that this seems designed to respond to.
Stupid evil villains. It's not as bad as, say, a Spielburg flick, but it's still bad directing.
quote:And why torture Osborne to get the tritium at all? Osborn offered him something he was interested in doing anyway. "Bring me Spider-Man so I can kill him". Well, Ock *already* didn't like Spider-Man. 'Do this little chore you'd enjoy and I'll give you what you very much want' seems like a good trade to me.
Right. I don't like Spider-Man, so why not kidnap a girl, expose myself to bullets that miraculously miss every time they're shot, and fight a superhero to get the crap I need? I mean, is it such a moral stretch to go from kidnapping MJ to torturing Osborne -- and hell, I thought Ock was smart; he didn't even need to torture Osborne, holding him over the balcony seems pretty freaking effective in getting whatever Ock could want.
quote:I will say I agree with the loss-of-powers bit. I think they should've mixed that up with the flu, or something, as has been done in the comics numerous times. Just show him in the cold rain once as Spidey, never getting enough sleep, add in some serious emotional weariness, and there you go.
Eh, even then, my muscles don't stop working when I'm sleep-deprived and sick. I can be weakened, sure, but to lose the ability to stick to walls? Shoot web?
Though I'll grant that's at least better than what they went with. Yeesh.
I'm still holding out for mutation.
quote:Both X-Men films were good, but they lacked the depth of character and emotion in both Spider-Man 1 & 2, I think. Partially because there are a BUNCH of characters in X-Men, whereas there are no more than two or three major ones at any given shot in Spider-Man. Also because several of the X-Men are pretty boring. But mostly, I think, because we don't get to seem them very vulnerable. The X-Men are X-Men, and they love other X-Men, and fight other X-Men and mutants. Whereas in Spider-Man, Peter Parker is someone we can empathize with (from what we've seen in the films).
Okay, before it was banter, now it's freaking war.
Geek.
X-Men is, hands down, the best comic book movie franchise ever put to screen -- though I understand Nolan's out to discard the crappy Batman legacy and set a new standard with his new film. Can't wait for that one.
How don't we see them at their most vulnerable? Jean's attraction to Logan (and the various loving being flung around in every direction by every character), Rogue's misery at being unable to touch others, Bobby's growing frustration with his inability to act on his puppy love for Rogue, Pyro's swayed allegiance to Magneto -- and hell, Magneto himself is, as I've long held, the single greatest "villain" in comic book history, if not much of the literary world. I heart the dude. If only Spider-Man could repeat that and get a villain worth caring about -- good vs. evil is a tired cliche. Especially given that evil never wins. Poor bastard.
quote:Edit: Oh, and as for science...isn't it pretty much accepted that we're looking the other way when it comes to higher science in a film where a genetically-enhanced spider-bite doesn't kill or injure, but inmbues the victim with all sorts of power? Where a fusion-reaction is contained with some metal arms? Where fusion is possible outside a nuclear weapon AT ALL?
It's a comic-book movie, not Mr. Wizard!
Hey, I agree with this much -- I'll accept that gamma rays make me bigger and greener without batting an eye. But it's stupidity that gets to me -- in this movie, for example, not only are Ock's arms semi-sentient (what the deuce?), they're actually malevolent. What the hell is going on in Raimi's head?
All this bitching aside, though, I enjoyed the film. It's no X-Men, but it's no Hulk, either -- it's damn enjoyable, especially for utter comic-book geeks like me, who grew up living and breathing my two gods of X-Men and Spider-Man. While I'm delighted with Raimi's attempt to stay more or less true to the comic, you have to admit, Singer's done a far better job giving his Marvel comic a presentation worthy of the characters portrayed.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
You can step,up to defend X-Men, I can defend Spidey...
The arms aren't malevolent. They're amoral. What they want Ock to do is what was the strongest in his mind after they were attached: finish his life's work. That impulse, combined with the madness that set in with his wife's death (which was also caused by his mistake) is what led Ock's own mind to add methods to the arms' motivations. The bullets didn't miss. His arms got in the way an awful lot, though...
Two reasons Pete got unmasked so much. First, we're skipping past 10 or 15 years of Spidey continuity. In the comics the Goblin knew, MJ knows, Harry knew. Ock didn't in original continuity, but does in Ultimate. It wasn't as big a deal when the unmaskings were stretched out over time, they're more noticeable in the space of two hours. And this way we got to see Peter's face, which helped in the acting and helped make him more human.
I agree with you about the schmaltzy scenes dragging on and the loss of powers through depression. I woulda preferred flu, at least that has precedence in the comics. But hey.
Other comments: the arms have acted independently any number of times in the comics. Nothing new here.
As mentioned, Harry watching his dad go slowly bonkers (without realizing that's what he was watching) could lead to a subconscious hatred of that mirror that Norman kept cackling at. For all we know Harry's already broken everything else in the room during his drunken, obsessed rages and the mirror was the only thing left to throw things at. If I can accept Rogue just happening to travel cross-freaking-country right to where Wolverine was, you can accept the mirror scene.
Ock's ruthlessness - it grew gradually through the movie. Worked for me. Torturing Osbourne to get the element he needed wouldn't work since harry didn't have it handy, he'd have to go get it. Ock was smart enough to know he couldn't hold a tentacle to harry's head while he went to go pick up some more at the corner store. Easier to make Harry want to do it by offering a trade and simultaneously get rid of Spider-Man.
Also agree that MJ leaving John at the altar was annoying. She's much more of a confrontational person, she wouldn't leave him hanging with a note (although, in the theater, while John is opening and reading it, I leaned over to my friend and whispered, "Thanks from your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man!").
X-Men is, hands down, the best comic book movie franchise ever put to screen...
I'm guessing you're more of an X-Man fan than a Spider-Man, true? I've been a Spidey fan for more years than I'd care to count, but I lost interest in X-Men around issue 175 or so (although I do read the Ultimate series and Whedon's new book). It's not surprising that I prefer the Spidey movies. But let's be honest, here. I'm willing to see the flaws in Spidey movies, but you don't see any problems, plot holes, or miraculous conveniences in the X-Men movies? Would you like my list?
[ July 02, 2004, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Besides, for every instance of bad acting you can list in the Spider-Man movies, I offer you Halle Berry as Storm.
"Do you know what happens to a toad when it's struck by lightning?"
Keep in mind, I love the x-movies. Just modulate the scorn, please.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
quote: I woulda preferred flu
I wonder why there has been more referrences to this on here? Having it simply a flu bug and not an internal conflict would, well, cut out a bit of the tension and character growth. I see it like Tiger Wood's golf swing. I don't know golf (and my scores prove it) but I keep hearing that Tiger lost his groove and it started with his swing. No flu. No gamma rays. Just lost it and it has nothing to do with his health, since that seems perfect. Spidey lost his groove, too. He COULD climb walls but psyched out his body. He COULD shoot webs, but psyched out his body. We know his powers never really went away because, oh, he fell from about 15 stories up the first time his webs went out and what, about 10 or so the second time? And landed on a car? And merely slumped off? No, we know he was super all the time. Flu...sheesh...
fil
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Mainly because it was a 24-hour bug that wiped him out when he faced Doc Ock way back when. Of course, then there wasn't the accompanying emotional distress, it was a way to show he was still prone to the same problems everybody else is.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ugh. There's no way the X-Men movies are better than the Spider-Man movies.
1) Let's ignore for a minute that they have a guy who's super-power is to make ice out thin air who somehow doesn't think, "Gee, if I freeze the water near the dam before it breaks, we won't all drown." At least use the weak device of having him knocked out.
2) Apparantly Xavier either A) telepathically immobilized a whole television audience watching a presidential address or B) used his mutant powers to infiltrate the White House and freeze the President and all his lackeys in front of that same television audience. If A, then he's powerful enough to solve the mutant problem. If B, then he just freaked out the world about mutants more than Mangeto ever did.
3) Magneto's gonna kill every human being in the world and you don't consider him evil? WTF?
4) Mystique lasts several minutes in hand to hand combat w/ Wolverine?
5) Magneto builds a machine to transform humans to mutants that only runs on his mutant power? Hello, ever heard of an electromagnet?
6) The Logan/Jean/Scott love triangle has got to be the most ham-handed depiction in movie history.
7) Rogues' misery isn't depicted as anything but teenaged angst. They could have done so much with it, and instead it's tacked in whenever they need a break in the action.
8) My biggest beef: The fight scenes were freaking ridiculous, in both movies. Sabetrooth v. Wolverine should be all action all the time, with a few taunts and a few cuts. These are two of the best hand-to-hand combatants in the world, with no fear of superficial injury and with matching berzerker rages, and we get the cheesiest acrobatics on top of the Statue of Liberty. What I wanted was to see what happens between the panels, which is where I think Raimi has made strides that no one has come close to yet. Instead, we get fight scenes coreographed like storyboards.
Despite all this, I liked the X-movies. But they were just very, very good comic book movies; with the exception of Magneto there's not real characterization in any of them.
Spider-man transcended both the comic and the summer movie. Part of that is a much more interesting, focused story: One lost teenager acquires powers and then makes some bad choices with horrible consequences. How will he atone. There's only one fantastic element added to make the story work (Spidey's superpowers), plus a villian for him to fight. In the X-Men, we're faced with lots of fantastic elements, all of which are necessary to accept the story: the mnutant powers, unbelievable technology secretly developed by at least 3 different organizations, anti-mutant hysteria with no nuance. All these are needed to push the story along.
As I stated earlier, the factors motivating Peter don't require his Spider powers (although certainly his response to those motivating factors does). The Uncle Ben arc works without super powers. The being too busy for the girl of your dreams works without super powers. The short of money because you're trying to do good works without super powers.
With the X-men, there's no story except the superpowers and the forced racism analogy, which is handled with a very heavy hand in both the comics and the movies.
Dagonee
[ July 02, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Just to be fair, I'll answer a few of these before adding my own:
1) Let's ignore for a minute that they have a guy who's super-power is to make ice out thin air who somehow doesn't think, "Gee, if I freeze the water near the dam before it breaks, we won't all drown." At least use the weak device of having him knocked out. I agree he should have tried, but stopping a river by freezing some of it prolly wouldn't have worked. Maybe freezing a slab right on the dam, to let the dam's structure take the brunt of it... I was much more impressed that he and Rogue learned how to fly a Blackbird jet in a few minutes.
2) Apparantly Xavier either A) telepathically immobilized a whole television audience watching a presidential address or B) used his mutant powers to infiltrate the White House and freeze the President and all his lackeys in front of that same television audience. If A, then he's powerful enough to solve the mutant problem. If B, then he just freaked out the world about mutants more than Mangeto ever did. Good point. I assumed that either they just killed power to the cameras when the lights went out, or the whle episode was a psychic blip fired into the president's mind by Xavier that took a millisecond and went unnoticed by the president's lackeys or audience.
3) Magneto's gonna kill every human being in the world and you don't consider him evil? WTF? In the movie he wasn't going to kill them, just forcibly change them all into mutants. Arguably just as bad.
4) Mystique lasts several minutes in hand to hand combat w/ Wolverine? This Wolverine doesn't seem to have any sort of fighting style other than slash or punch, and I kinda liked that about him. Up til now he hasn't needed to, and at this point there hasn't been any chances for him to train and learn how to ight superpowered foes.
5) Magneto builds a machine to transform humans to mutants that only runs on his mutant power? Hello, ever heard of an electromagnet? Lame pseudoscience plot device. Accept it and move on.
6) The Logan/Jean/Scott love triangle has got to be the most ham-handed depiction in movie history. The Logan/Jean/Scott triangle is another example of compressed movie time. In the comics this developed over a period of time. In the movies, Logan shows up and flirts with her, and suddenly it's an emotional triangle? That's a crush, not love.
7) Rogues' misery isn't depicted as anything but teenaged angst. They could have done so much with it, and instead it's tacked in whenever they need a break in the action. It worked for me, especially since there's no way they could fit her comics origin in there. Besides, following her as a young girl gives the audience someone to identify with along with Logan.
8) My biggest beef: The fight scenes were freaking ridiculous, in both movies. I would love to see whomever choreographed the Spidey/Ock fight scenes to handle the chores in X3. No argument here.
[ July 02, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Chris Bridges ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Your responses are all fair, and pretty much are why I actually like the movies. Except for
quote:In the movie he wasn't going to kill them, just forcibly change them all into mutants. Arguably just as bad.
In the second movie, after they free Xavier from Mastermind, doesn't Magneto try to get Xavier to switch his attack to the humans? All of them? Or am I badly misremembering?
One thing that annoyed me about X2 is they took one of the best X-Men stories of all time (God Loves, Man Kills) and removed its heart.
Dagonee Edit: I really want to see the original Wolverine mini-series done as a movie, with Mariko, Yukio, Mariko's father, and the Hand, with really good coreography.
Or just a 5 minute, no cutaway Wolverine/Sabretooth fight after they realize they know each other.
[ July 02, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
The Alex Ross paintings are starting to pop up on the Net. Here's a link to some of them. Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Thanks, Chris. Needed new Wallpaper for the 'puter!
fil
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
*shuts eyes so she doesn't see the spoilers*
My kiddos really want to see this movie - they are 9 and 6. Is it appropriate? The only thing I'm concerned about is sex comments/situations. Thanks!
space opera
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
No sexual situations, nudity, or even anything particularly suggestive. Violence, of course, but bloodless and comic booky. One scene (the operating room) with people killed violently, but no blood or gore is seen. Just possibly scary (and definitely cheesy) attacks. One or two places where they'll be startled.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Great...thanks! You've just made 2 kids very happy.
space opera
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
As a parent of a 5 year old, I would be a little cautious for a 6 year old going. 9 is perfect, though. Maybe a sitter for one and a night out for the 9 year old? Will the 6 year old spit and kick stuff if they don't go? Hope not. Just my 2 pennies. Did the 6 year old see the first movie? Did you? It is about the same level of violence and a few more scary scenes (Ock is creepier and more haunting than Goblin ever was).
Just some thoughts.
fil
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
I'll put in my vote for "better than the X-Men films," too. But, then again, I suppose there are people out there who just don't LIKE Spider-Man. These people are evil demon robots.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Maybe that's what they'll need to beat that guy on Jeopardy.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Nathan saw it twice. --I--
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I appreciated the fact that at MJ's wedding, Harry was wearing a green bowtie. I grinned.
Posted by Alexa (Member # 6285) on :
quote: I liked the scene with the people helping the hero, even though I think it was a bit overdone. But at the time, I was feelin' it:)
I am glad at least someone liked this scene. True, it was a bit overdone, but when all of the passangers try to stand in the way of Doc, and he just pushes them asided like pathetic nobodies, well, in my opinion, THAT saved the scene and made it work without apologies.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
When the crowd was passing Spidey over their heads, I leaned over and whispered, "They stole that from the Matrix." I heard a guy behind me say, "Where's the funny glow and robots?" Doc Ock was cool, but the rest of that scene just didn't work for me.
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
I'm surprised nobody picked up on the biggest inconsistency of all: The cute blonde girl offered Peter chocolate cake, but in the next scene they were eating yellow cake with chocolate frosting.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That lying vixen!
Posted by Dobbie (Member # 3881) on :
I still like her a lot more than Kirsten Dunst.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: If I can accept Rogue just happening to travel cross-freaking-country right to where Wolverine was, you can accept the mirror scene.
I'm pretty sure she was traveling to Laughlin city because she heard there was a possible mutant there.
It's painful for me to watch X-2 and have bobby not freeze the reservoir, or at least a shield in front of it. Or Rogue could have stolen his powers and done it. But I guess a point could be made that if he screwed up in freezing the river, the expanding water could have made things a lot worse a lot faster. We know from the scene with his mother's tea that he can make ice from actual fluids and not just out of thin air.
I think Xavier doesn't just freeze people, he somehow freeezes time for everyone and everything except the people he chooses, which we know can include non-mutants. So, yeah, I just file that in the "whatever" bin. It may be he is causing stuff to happen so fast that no one else notices. kind of like a "Flash" speed thingy.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:The cute blonde girl offered Peter chocolate cake, but in the next scene they were eating yellow cake with chocolate frosting.
I totally noticed that!! My friend and I were taken completely out of the scene by that. That and the desire for some real chocolate cake.
[ July 03, 2004, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I kept waiting for the blond girl to appear behind Peter in his bedroom when MJ came back at the end and thus end the movie on much the same note as last time.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I loved the Spidey costume on the wall looking like a carbonized Han Solo.
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
Just a little thing I've been thinking about. I don't think Venom will be in the next movie, however, I do believe the symbiote suit WILL be, and that the ending will set up Venom in the 4th film (I do believe they will go for four, and hopefully leave it at that). So what I think, in the next one they will have the 2nd (and I think it would be cool if they have Norman come back for the 3rd also) green goblin, and probably some other villian, yet to be determined and worked into the script.
So heres my predictions:
Spiderman 3: symbiote suit, green goblin 2nd and original
Spiderman 4: Venom
If they decide not to do a fourth one, then they will go ahead and go Green Goblin 2nd and original and Venom, in one.
My 2 cents. Movie rocked. Loved it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Normon Osborn not being dead was the worst plotline in Comic Book History. It caused a revolt among readers; I doubt movie viewers will buy it. Please say no to Marvel Death Impermanence.
Dagonee
Posted by sarfa (Member # 579) on :
I hope they will NOT bring Norman back. It is pretty obvious they will make Harry the new Green Goblin, though I also expect they will add the Lizard to the mix (Since Doc Conners played a minor, yet significant role in this one.) This combo could really work well since the Lizard is not an extremely deep character and Harry's revenge motives are already well established, making two plotlines easily managed in one movie (and you could really see Harry manipulating the stupid Lizard). I hope they don't bring Venom into the next movie, it would require too much story (Alien Costume and Peter rejecting it, then finding Eddie Brock who has been exposed as a fraud) to add to the Harry's revenge story. I think it would make an excellent fourth movie, and if he gets the alien costume in the next one, you can be sure Venom will be the focus of the fourth (if there is a fourth).
Posted by sarfa (Member # 579) on :
Oh, and my 2 cents on the Spiderman vs. X-Men movies is this: Spider-man wins, hands down. X2 was about as good as either of the Spider-man movies, but the first X-men movie was NOT. Don't get me wrong, I liked the first X-Men movie, It just had too many flaws to hold up to either of the other 3 Marvel movies being mentioned here (and realize, this is coming from someone who is a MUCH bigger X-Men fan than a Spider-man fan, so fan-boy biases are out the window here).
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
For those who are interested in random trivia, the cute blonde girl is Mageina Tovah, who played Glynis on Joan of Arcadia. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, then just ignore me. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wondered if that was her!
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
I'm not saying she wasn't cute--a little--but she was excruciatingly skinny. I'd be worried about hurting her, and those of you who were at WenchCon know how skinny I am.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
No...HERE is the plot of the third and last movie (my 2 cents! ).
The movie will open with TWO spider men jumping around the city, saving people, fighting crime, etc. One will of course be Petey and the other will be Jon Jameson. He tries to be the Spider that MJ loves but can't so he pushes it more and more...sort of a pissing contest between spidermen...but with webs. The real "villain" will be Osborn but maybe not Goblin (or at least, not just him). I like the Dr. Connor idea, too (he is missing his arm). Jameson (like Ock) loses the battle with the suit and Venom is born...and there is a fight. I think Osborn and Pete will be the Clark/Lex combo ala Smallville. I don't think they will ever go head to head in the movies. They along with MJ will be the constants in the world. I don't see a fourth movie, even though this one will pull in bags of dough. Sam Raimi will be sick of it after 3 (and I wonder if he will do more than Produce the next one) and I think this team is magical and tough to replace.
Oh, and the Magic Cake theories...no biggie. What does one call yellow cake with chocolate frosting on it? Er...chocolate cake. And heck, this is the girl who burnt her hand and started a fire. And came in, went back out, knocked and returned. She obviously has a crush to end all crushes. Who knows where her mind is! Cutest scene, though.
fil
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
quote:
quote:The cute blonde girl offered Peter chocolate cake, but in the next scene they were eating yellow cake with chocolate frosting.
I totally noticed that!! My friend and I were taken completely out of the scene by that. That and the desire for some real chocolate cake.
How could anyone not notice? Especially when it's something as important as chocolate cake.
And dang. I'm hungry, and there's no chocolate cake in the house.
[ July 03, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Snarky ]
Posted by Snarky (Member # 4406) on :
Okay, here are some real thoughts on the movie:
The bad science made my head hurt. A lot.
I loved how it built on the first movie so well in all aspects. More character development, more inner turmoil, more development in Peter and Mary-Jane's relationship.
The "where did Spider-man's powers go" thing bugged me. What, he can just wish them away? Convenient.
The special effects were much better. As good as the first movie was, I hate the cartoony CGI Spider-man.
I encountered three idiotic drivers on the way home from the movie. Coincidence, or conspiracy? No, wait, it's just Provo.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
I know it was brought up in another Spidey thread, but that one is pretty buried right now. I was wondering how old a kid would need to be to see this movie. I saw it again today (geek, I know) with my wife and some friends. Loved it again, by the way, even so soon. Anyway, two families brought little boys who were clearly under 5. They couldn't sit still during the many "characer bits" and were of course in rapt attention during the violence. We gave the family very dirty looks and noted to them we thought the movie was a bit violent for little kids and left it at that. I was incensed that families will expose such little ones to such extreme violence. Sure, there wasn't any blood, language or sexuality but the action was intense. For a teen or even a late pre-teen (9 or 10, if pretty with it) would do fine with this but so small. Dang. Am I being over sensitive? Spidey Sensitive?
fil
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. I haven't taken my kiddos to see it yet. I think it depends on what the kids are exposed to. For instance, we let both of our kids (9 and 6) watch LOTR. We talked as a family about the violence in it and the themes, such as friendship, loyalty, and honor so that we made certain our kids understood the whole story. We do a lot of reading out loud at home of chapter books (no pictures!) so I think my kids don't need a POW! and BAM! every few seconds to keep their attention; they gain things from character development. I'm not certain about other kids though - especially ones under 5.
space opera
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
My favorite part was when they showed my alma mater (Go Lions). The classroom where Peter makes his academic comeback is where I suffered through GChem and realized that there was no way I could be pre-med.
I also enjoyed poking Andrew and saying things like, "That's Hamilton, all Chem classes are held in Havemeyer," and "That's the phone booth outside of Kent." I was also thrilled to see that they took down the double-wide trailer that was serving as the student activities building.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
OK, I'm curious: how DID they resurrect Norman Osborne in the comics?
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
As I understand it, the writers simply decided that Norman had superhuman resilience--kind of a "healing factor" like Wolverine's, only perhaps not as powerful. So he was never really dead.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Yes, that's right. It was decided that Norman had a healing factor of a very curious type. He was run straight through the heart, but fortunately he had a healing factor...which took a *long* time to overcome his injury.
Of course, Spidey and the Goblin can BOTH be said to have an enhanced healing factor, just because their entire systems are enhanced. Whereas Wolverine's healing factor is exponentially greater than his other abilities.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Spidey has healed cracked ribs in a couple of days, and in some of the novelizations he's recovered from concussions in a few hours. Speedy, but not Wolverine speedy.
Norman Osborne coming back was a major cheat, not least because they had a great arc w/ Harry carrying on his father's work as the Green Goblin and finally coming back to his senses, sacrificing himself to save MJ. This was a complete redemption from his father, who killed Gwen (Peter's first love), and then was unrepentant even when Peter had him beaten. With Normon, the Goblin won. With Harry, the person won.
Norman coming back destroyed that symmetry.
Dagonee Edit: And bringing him back just because they didn't know how to end the Clone Saga made it doubly insulting.
[ July 04, 2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
okay -- we finally got to see it today! Yay!
I've read through all this thread, and haven't seen my favorite "funny" scene mentioned in talk about those comic relief moments. Maybe it's just the mom in me, but I laughed out loud at the laundry mat scene where he learns to NOT wash his underwear and socks with his spidey suit! LOL!
(and now we know if he is boxers or briefs!)
Any of the bad science didn't bother me because I kept reminding myself "this IS a comic book!" Comic books often have weird science. So the fusion deal didn't bother me at all, in that context.
You have clarified in previous posts -- I also wondered if the driveway dialogue implied his Aunt knew his identity. I was really surprised at how many people "figured him out" or saw him without his mask in this one -- I hadn't expected that. But I'm glad MJ knows.
Was I the only one, when Harry unmasks him and says, "you killed my father" wanted Spidey to jump up and say "no, I didn't!" (because technically he didn't -- Goblin kind of killed himself.) But he didn't defend himself at all -- just tries to shift focus to the problem currently at hand.
I also agree there will probably by a sequel with Harry as another Goblin, and probably Jameson as bringing back Venom from space or whatever (can't remember exact previous comic book storyline)
Overall, loved the movie and would like to see it again. (I'll admit, however, to thinking the "Raindrops keep falling on my head" scene as being a little weird)
Farmgirl
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
In the original Venom storyline, Spidey acquires a new costume while in outer space. Over time, he discovers that the costume is a living creature (and a shapeshifting "oil" thingy), and its many advantages are outweighed by the fact that it's pretty much taking over his mind. So he ditches it -- and it grabs somebody else.
-----
My personal favorite line of dialogue was "This is really heavy." Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
quote: Was I the only one, when Harry unmasks him and says, "you killed my father" wanted Spidey to jump up and say "no, I didn't!" (because technically he didn't -- Goblin kind of killed himself.) But he didn't defend himself at all -- just tries to shift focus to the problem currently at hand.
That was my reaction, too, in a way. But it shows the kind of character Peter has--he feels responsible. Even when it's not really his fault. He's willing to take the blame, at least from other people. It's a strength, and a weakness. (What if he had told Harry? Harry's been his friend for a long time...who knows, Harry might have forgiven him. But then we'd have no third movie.)
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
On a different note...
I don't know if anyone noticed this, but when the people were passing him hand to hand over their heads to put him down in an open space, it reminded me of images I've seen of Jesus being taken down from the cross. And when I thought about it a little more, I realized he's in a cruciform posture while he stops the train, and straining himself almost to death to save a bunch of people.
Anyone think this was intentional? Or was it just an accident of film?
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Well, Peter Parker / Spider-Man are the sorts of guilt blackholes who might not have told Harry (right then, anyway) about his father because he *still* doesn't want his best friend to know that his father was a mass-murderer who tried not only to kill his son's best friend, but his ex-girlfriend, and a bunch of kids too.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
"It does ride up in the crotch a bit."
Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it (don't have time to scan the whole thread), but I absolutely loved Ock's redemption scene.
Molina pulled off "I will not die a monster!" incredibly well, and I thought the whole pulling down the "sun" and dying in the process was very well done. Definitely one of my favorite movie villains to date.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I think anybody being passed like that just falls into a crucified position. I know I do...
The arms outstretched posture is not only symbolic of crucifixion. It's also an expression of freedom, and rage, and the size of the fish you caught. The Christ metaphor was used consciously all through the Matrix movies, but I don't think it was here.
I also don't think the movie May knows he's Spider-Man. She does know he knows Spider-Man - he had just discussed taking his pictures - and was hinting strongly so Peter could pass her words along.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:The arms aren't malevolent. They're amoral. What they want Ock to do is what was the strongest in his mind after they were attached: finish his life's work. That impulse, combined with the madness that set in with his wife's death (which was also caused by his mistake) is what led Ock's own mind to add methods to the arms' motivations. The bullets didn't miss. His arms got in the way an awful lot, though...
My problem lies with the arms having emotions at all -- what the deuce? Doc Ock could control the arms from a distance even after being detached from them, but that was because they'd become a part of his body by then, a part of his mind -- here, they had a mind of their own. It's a bit jarring.
quote:Two reasons Pete got unmasked so much. First, we're skipping past 10 or 15 years of Spidey continuity. In the comics the Goblin knew, MJ knows, Harry knew. Ock didn't in original continuity, but does in Ultimate. It wasn't as big a deal when the unmaskings were stretched out over time, they're more noticeable in the space of two hours. And this way we got to see Peter's face, which helped in the acting and helped make him more human.
Granted. But even so, I realize they're pressed for time, but having Spider-Man whip off his mask every two minutes sort of ruins the audience's credibility with his insistance that he needs it in the first place. In the third movie, someone from the train had better squawk, or I'll get angry. And they don't want to make me angry. They wouldn't like me when I'm angry.
quote:As mentioned, Harry watching his dad go slowly bonkers (without realizing that's what he was watching) could lead to a subconscious hatred of that mirror that Norman kept cackling at. For all we know Harry's already broken everything else in the room during his drunken, obsessed rages and the mirror was the only thing left to throw things at. If I can accept Rogue just happening to travel cross-freaking-country right to where Wolverine was, you can accept the mirror scene.
Heh. But with X-Men, it's possible that their meeting was coincidence -- they weren't wandering around looking for each other. If you really want to pick on the movie, point out Sabretooth just happening to be far enough up what just happens to be the right road .
As a side note, in X-3, I'm guessing Sabretooth and Toad were out doing some work for Magneto while he was incarcerated -- probably infiltrating Project: Wideawake, I'm hoping, I'm praying. That would make an impossibly excellent film.
As far as this Spider-Man scene goes, I don't buy it. It's a working explanation, but you really need to stretch to get it working -- surely there's an easier way for Harry to discover his father's secret. I've forgotten, how did he do it in the comics?
quote:Ock's ruthlessness - it grew gradually through the movie. Worked for me. Torturing Osbourne to get the element he needed wouldn't work since harry didn't have it handy, he'd have to go get it. Ock was smart enough to know he couldn't hold a tentacle to harry's head while he went to go pick up some more at the corner store. Easier to make Harry want to do it by offering a trade and simultaneously get rid of Spider-Man.
Eh, even then. Agree to the trade, disappear for a while, then show up a few days later and torture Osborne for the material when you know he must have it on hand.
quote:I'm guessing you're more of an X-Man fan than a Spider-Man, true? I've been a Spidey fan for more years than I'd care to count, but I lost interest in X-Men around issue 175 or so (although I do read the Ultimate series and Whedon's new book). It's not surprising that I prefer the Spidey movies. But let's be honest, here. I'm willing to see the flaws in Spidey movies, but you don't see any problems, plot holes, or miraculous conveniences in the X-Men movies? Would you like my list?
Heh. There's more than you have strength enough to write.
It's true, I'm more an X-Men fan than a Spider-Man fan, but surprisingly enough, this is without ever having a comic book to call my own (aside from one X-Men comic given to me in the third grade by a friend). I grew up on the X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons, and later delved into what I've dubbed "comic novels" -- novels based on comic books. Keep in mind this started in the seventh grade.
From these, I have a fairly good working knowledge of the Marvel universe, but I'm lost when you turn to comics. I'm a huge, adoring fan of the cartoons, though -- I've gone so far as to hypothetically purchase both series off a hypothetical bidding site like E-Bay. With all honesty, I think the Spider-Man series might have been the superior of the two, but I can't decide which I prefer.
I love both, but you're right, I have a special love for the X-Men movies, if only because they've got a superior plot line. Spider-Man relies too heavily on the same formulaic crap that Harry Potter movies do -- Harry has an adventure! Harry fights a villain! Harry has another adventure! It's too Spielburg. I don't like trite villains (which I realize the X-movies have), and I don't like simplistic plots.
That said, I loved both Spider-Man movies, which is more than I can say for the X-movies. The first one was terrible. And not just due to Halle Berry's participation. I'm this nitpicky about Spider-Man 2 because I'm this insistent on utter perfection in movies about subjects I'm so reverent for.
I mean, hell, I hated the theatrical versions of both The Two Towers and The Return of the King. I enjoy the extended edition of TTT, though, and I'm hopeful that I'll love the EE:RotK. I whine because I care.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The one thing that bothered me most about the first Spiderman movie was that he kept his promise to Osborne to not tell Harry. But I was thinking about it yesterday, and I think the reason he didn't then, and doesn't in this movie, is more to do with Harry than a promise to an obviously crazed villain.
Harry is pretty vulnerable, psychologically, and craves his father's admiration. So I could see a motive where Peter doesn't want Harry to see becoming a villain as a way to fulfill that. Of course it does come back to that with the ghost in the mirror scene in Spiderman 2.
I liked the relationship between Peter and MJ more in the first one.
I tend to think the Christic theme is deliberate, since straining the arms against resistance would result in them curling up and not remaining spread after he lost consciousness.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I liked the movie OK. Not as much as the first one. Stuff I liked = special effects, Dr. Octopus not being in a silly costume, people finding out who Spider-Man is, Jameson... and I actually did like the part about Parker losing his abilities when he lost confidence, but maybe that's just because I haven't watched Smallville or seen that storyline lately...
But: there were too many inconsistencies and cliches that ticked me off and annoyed me and got in the way of me really getting into the movie.
OK, letsee...
The burning building: Parker is buying a paper, and then suddenly notices a huge building on fire? (Like, a BIG fire, where almost everyone's already had time to get out, there should've been lots of screaming and sirens and he should've noticed before -- nevermind his spider powers being weak -- "hey, that building over there is on fire".)
And the fire itself is one of those Hollywood movie fires, where the whole building is on fire at once, but you can still run around inside and see stuff and not be blinded by smoke or poisoned by burning plastic and carpets, and not get turned back by the incredible heat...
OK what else...
Too many laws-of-physics violations... I can accept SOME basics, like that Parker got powers from a spider and that Dr Octopus has advanced prosthetic arms... but I can't accept too many violations of little details... like: you can't grab a falling person out of the air suddenly, without their neck getting broken, or their suffering whiplash or other bad stuff. Gwen Stacy died in the comics because she fell off a bridge, Spider-Man snagged her with his webbing to save her, but she'd fallen too far and fast and so the intense whiplash broke her neck... so there's no way he could've saved Aunt May like that in the movie. (Maybe if he'd done it with bungee-cord weblines that GRADUALLY slowed her down...)
Or: I know he's strong... but: no one can slow down a train with their feet and tear up railroad ties like that... and you can't hold on to weblines to slow down a train -- they're gonna tear out of your grip, or your arms are gonna get dislocated or torn off... and webbing stuck to the sides of buildings is just gonna tear off the bricks or paint...
OK, I'll post this much and start another post...
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
OK, other stuff:
Someone operating a circular saw to saw off Octopus's appendages wouldn't have done so without using goggles. And he wouldn't go at it by just holding the blade like that -- he'd have clamped down the arm and used a rotary saw to hold the blade still so it doesn't bounce off and hit himself... and what kind of saw is going to cut off metal arms that could handle a fusion reaction?? You'd need a line like "this adamantine saw can cut through anything!"
Policemen wouldn't have fired at Dr Octopus while he was climbing a building -- bullets can go through windows and kill civilians, and they're not gonna have any accuracy without rifles...
Too many cinematic cliches -- the sudden hush when everyone stops to watch Harry slap Peter. MJ standing up Jameson at the wedding. MJ coming out of the theater, Peter watching her, he sees her new boyfriend kiss her... then suddenly MJ gets a feeling and looks over at the empty place where Peter had just been... or: at the end, Peter turning around to find MJ in the door... or, earlier, MJ suddenly appearing sitting on the step in the few seconds it took Peter to take out on the garbage... it's pretty impossible to take someone with spider powers by surprise like that... and it's such a movie cliche too (usually a horror movie one)...
Or: the lab demonstration that goes wrong... in front of tons of witnesses... no savvy scientist or PR person would let this happen. If a PR demonstration DOES go wrong, you have to have some kind of explanation, like, "But it worked fine before in the tests! It was only because that butterfly strayed into the beam!"
Or there's little things that could've been explained better. Harry's a 20-year-old-guy who was failing high school, and here he's heading up the Special Projects division of OsCorp? A line to explain this, like "I'll show those guys who think I just got this job because of my dad," would've been nice...
Or, what's Parker doing studying physics?? He's more of a biochem guy. He's brilliant, but he doesn't have the time to be studying nuclear physics...
OK, last peeve = yet another story about a scientist trying to come up with a new energy source. I've just seen that one way too much... I think writers use this one too much because it gives them a chance to set up an explosion that can blow up a city... how about having just let Octavius be a guy who was researching prosthetics? That's a valuable enough technology right there...
Posted by Olorinate (Member # 1561) on :
This is in response to an email I got from a friend, complaining about how goofy the whole AI thing was. I thought you guys might enjoy it, and then I discovered that was the topic the thread is currently exploring! Cool . . . anyway, here it is:
<EMAIL>
I understand what you mean about the AI taking over Octavius' brain; it is pretty hokey. But, you know, the same sort of goofy science-warping goes on in comics all the time. I admit, I was thinking the same thing when he put on the suit: sure, you're going to create a mini-sun in a loft in Manhattan, but in order to so you've created 1) a metal that's impervious to heat and magnetism, 2) a neuromechanical interface that allows you to manipulate METAL TENTACLES, and 3) AI so intelligent that it can operate independently and efficiently using a distorted one-dimensional image as its only means of viewing the outside world. Each of these achievements alone make creating an artificial sun look like melting butter in a microwave. In the desert. In July. As the microwave sinks into magma. It wouldn't be hard, is what I'm getting at. I mean, it probably would, but who cares? Oscorp is in trouble . . . why? A tiny sun didn't work? METAL TENTACLES!
BUT! That's what comics are famous for, glossing over ridiculously impossible pretexts to achieve a relatively commonplace event: in this case, love loss. Except the guy who loses his love this time needs to have METAL TENTACLES (impervious to heat and magnetism, because tiny suns are magnetic) with artificial intelligence to help him fight Spider-man. I thought it was pretty plausible, personally.
</EMAIL>
Did any of you guys stay through all the credits at the end of the movie? I couldn't sit through any more GENERIC ROCK MUSIC (that's in the shooting script) and I had to leave, but I was hoping some of you had earplugs with you and managed to tough it out. Did anything cool happen?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:surely there's an easier way for Harry to discover his father's secret. I've forgotten, how did he do it in the comics?
After Norman "died" fighting Spider-Man, Harry found his father in the Green Goblin costume and removed it so that the authorities wouldn't know about it. Then Harry forgot (he was doing drugs at the time).
Later, the Hobgoblin, who had stumbled across the Green Goblin's stores and adopted them for his own, blackmailed Harry, threatening to release the information.
Dagonee
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Oh, come on. Spider-Man's plotline is inferior to X-Men's plotline because it's formulaic?
ALL major comic-book plotlines are by their nature formulaic to some extent; X-Men could easily be said to be among the most formulaic.
Spider-Man is formulaic in that it's got a conflicted, human hero-but it's formulaic because Spider-Man did that formula *first*.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I thin what makes Spider-Man a more powerful story than the X-Men is the underlying theme. With the X-Men, it's, "I'm different, and the thing that makes me different makes me special, and the world hates me for it."
With Spider-Man, it's, "I'm trying to be a good person. How does the presence of unearned power affect what it means to be a good person."
X-Men is about man v. man; Spidey about Man v. Himself.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"The Christ metaphor was used consciously all through the Matrix movies, but I don't think it was here."
Seriously? My first thought was, "Oh, PLEASE. This is just dripping with Christ, innit? Why not start playing some Andrew Lloyd Webber music while you've got us trapped in this scene?"
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Someone was saying how when Peter saves the kid from the fire, then hears from the fireman about the guy on the 4th floor who died, that this is hard for Peter, because he feels that with his spider powers he could've saved the guy... that may be the best explanation, but when I saw it I actually had a different take, which was that Peter was having to accept that even when he tried to do the right thing, that he couldn't save everyone, and that this was part of what brought him back to being Spider-Man again -- that while he should be Spider-Man, that he was never going to be able to save everyone, and so that it was important for him to keep that in perspective and not knock himself out trying.
Without that perspective, he's still gonna run himself ragged -- at the end of the film, he's gotten together with MJ, but unless he paces himself and learns to accept that he can't be everywhere at once and save everyone, he's still gonna shortchange his studies and his work and his personal life...
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Tom and CT - okay, it may have been conscious on the part of the director. If it was it had no effect on me, I didn't even make the connection until it was pointed out here. Unlike the Matrix, where it was shoved in my face every few frames and even spawned a "spot the cross" drinking game.
Or is every person straining heroically with their arms out doomed to be a Christ metaphor from now on?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Arms straight out to the sides is not a very effective way of doing anything, so I'd say it generally is a crucifixion metaphor.
quote: Policemen wouldn't have fired at Dr Octopus while he was climbing a building -- bullets can go through windows and kill civilians, and they're not gonna have any accuracy without rifles..
I had this same thought earlier in the scene when Spidey is being fired at by the thieves with an Uzi. great, he's going to recover some stolen property but someone is going to get hit by a bullet he dodges.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Or is every person straining heroically with their arms out doomed to be a Christ metaphor from now on?"
Every sacrificial hero who is carried, eyes closed beatifically, with their arms stretched out in unnatural stiffness, is doomed to be a Christ metaphor. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
The errant-gunfire thought occurred to me too, but at least in the comics it seems that the writers are now taking that into account. You'll at least have Spidey *say* something about all the gunfire, and usually he'll web `em up quicker.
But if that happened this time, we'd miss out on the cool web-swingin' scene and gunfight Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
My favorite scene was the woman playing the violin and singing the spider man song from the old cartoon. Absolutely priceless.
Posted by docmagik (Member # 1131) on :
If I remember right, isn't the whole Christ thing a holdover from the days when Miller did the comics? I mean, I know he did it throughout his Daredevil run, but I seem to remember some of it in Spidey as well . . .
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Doc, I don't know who wrote them, but try Warlock sometime...
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Lime (or whoever wants to answer)
What was the Evil Dead reference you mentioned was in the movie? Is Evil Dead another movie, or a story? And why did they want to include that in Spidey2?
Farmgirl
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
There are three "Evil Dead" movies. The first was Spidey director Sam Raimi's earliest cult hit, made on a shoe-string budget in the woods with unknown actors. The scene where Doc Ock's arms go nuts in the operating room is an homage to his older classic. Another ongoing homage is including Bruce Campbell, the B-movie star of all three Evil Dead movies, in both Spidey movies. In the first, he was the wrestling announcer. In the second, the snooty theatre usher.
There ya go.
fil
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
And, of course, "The Classic" has been in every movie Sam has made. It's Uncle Ben's car in the first and you see it parked in May's driveway in the second.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Cool. Guess I should rent the classic just to see the stuff. But I don't do horror movies too well...
FG
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Then you might want to avoid the first Evil Dead movie. It is a genuinely creepy and scary movie. The second one, though very scary at points, has a lot more of Raimi's trademark humor and the last one could barely be called horror. It is more screwball fantasy action...er...thingy. Still a lot of fun, though. Forgot about the Car! Thanks, BtL! Yah, that is another ongoing homage. Cool.
fil
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Farmgirl, find If Chins Could Kill: Confessions of a B Movie Actor by Bruce Campbell. It has the whole story, and the book is hilarious. I loved it.
Posted by fil (Member # 5079) on :
Speaking of "The Car," I was wondering why Aunt May would keep the old thing? In the first movie, it was the place where Ben was mortally wounded and then was driven into wall at amazing fast speed. The roof is riddled with bullet holes from where the perp shot at Spidey and the hood has Spidey feet indentations and the windshield was busted out. Such memories! He would have been fine having the car in the dream sequence where Pete talked to his uncle about giving up the Spidey mask. Having May keep the thing would be kind of silly.
fil
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
Maybe she just went out and bought a new one? Maybe there are some *ahem* good memories of her and Ben in that kind of car. I'm sure she could pick one up for what, $100
And I second Kat's post. His autobiography was a wonderful read. He sounds like he'd be a really cool guy to hang out with (a man can dream).
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Every sacrificial hero who is carried, eyes closed beatifically, with their arms stretched out in unnatural stiffness, is doomed to be a Christ metaphor.
Don't forget the wound in his side! Heck, I'm surprised that he didn't take three days to recover from stopping the train.
Posted by Lime (Member # 1707) on :
Farmgirl: fil's got it covered. I personally only saw the first two Evil Deads after having read a paper concerning them, and how they go about breaking a lot of the tried and true rules/traditions of the horror genre. They were really goofy (and the first one was completely disturbing), but they were intelligent as well.
The third, Army of Darkness, should be required viewing. You don't even have to have seen the first two - just accept the situation as explained in the intro and have fun with it.
And I'm gonna go buy Bruce's book this week. I've been putting that read off for way too long.
[ July 06, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: Lime ]
Posted by The Silverblue Sun (Member # 1630) on :
I just saw the movie.
#1 - I loved the scene where Aunt May tells Peter about how great of a Hero she finds Spider-man. (this sends my Jedi senses to think Aunt may KNOWS. Much like Mary Jane did)
#2 - I also loved Spiderman's Jesus thing where he was all crossed up, stopped the train, and then the people caught him and set him down.
#3 At the End, when Peter parker in his costume, turns to see MAry Jane. That was AWESOME.
#4 "Go get them Tiger" - favorite line of the movie.
<T>
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Just saw the movie last night. Loved it! I do think that some of the emotional scenes tarried just a bit too long on the screen and didn't *quite* work as perfectly as they could have, but I forgave that flaw.
Also, bad science. Bad, bad science. But as has been said, what do you expect from a comic book film? They are always based on bad science and you just can't get around that. So again, forgiven.
MJ being shallow? Yes and no. Peter himself isn't the deepest of people. But both of them are learning. People in progress, both with great potential. Again, no argument with me there.
Side note on the upside-down kiss, we are not told what is going through her mind, but I think she was trying to recreate that magical moment with Spiderman, and that she is beginning to wonder about the Peter-Spidy connection. (In fact, I thought she had figured it out at the end of the first film when they kissed--that it made her think of Spiderman. Apparently I was wrong.)
I guess I find it romantic that you can recognize someone by their kiss. I think that is where she was going when she said, "Kiss me. I need to know something," and one of the reasons why Peter was so hesitant. I think he knew what she was suspecting also. But there isn't enough evidence in the movie to say for sure.
I have never read a Spiderman comic, and I feel like I am missing out because of it. But what was the deal with him falling from buildings *three times* and surviving? Is he really that durable? (For my answer, I just need to remember the train scene.) But, man! That boy can take a beating.
Y'all know I am a sucker for noble geeks and underdogs. Peter/Spidy is *so* my kind of hero. (There was a bit of that with the 1978 Superman movie too, but not as much.) IMO, the Spiderman movies are by far the best comic book movies ever made. But that is because I put far more importance on the story than the action. The stories in these movies sticks with me like no other comic book movie ever has. (The first Batman and X men movies come close though.)
Edit: Huh. I didn't even *think* of the Christ metaphor until reading the idea here. I just figured his arms were stretched out to the sides because of the circumstances. But now that I think of it, that imagery may have been very much intended.
[ July 24, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
I've seen the movie last week, but haven't had time to post about it.
It's AWESOME !
Forget the scientific stuff, I'd forgive them for this anytime provided I get a good story ! I'm not seeing a documentary, I'm seeing a super-hero / love story.
As beverly (and others before her) said, the emotional stuff was sometimes too... obvious. But I kinda liked that: they showed the raw emotions, no inhibitions. We're so used to hide our emotions, to 'use' them discreetly, that when we see them displayed in their total splendor we're a little embarrassed.
Shallow/deep characters: They are young !!! Really young. They're not some mature, experienced people. I think they were only shown as closer to the average person of that age. How *deep* were you at 20-something ?!
All in all, I liked it. I got the feeling of it being real, or even 'more than real' sometimes. And what can I say ? I can hardly wait for the third one !
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Beverly,
I thought a lot of the same things you did, but I'm such a Spidey fan that I hardly noticed them at the time.
I don't think MJ is shallow (this isn't directed at you, beverly). Just because she's going through a cliched struggle doesn't mean she's shallow. Cliches are cliches because they happen a lot, after all.
I think the upside-down kiss thing was a mixture of love (well, a crush, really) on Spiderman. After all, he saved her life-that kind of reaction is natural. But she's not stupid, either-she was there when Peter went Spidey on Flash at school, she lived next door to him when he was practicing and making some radical lifestyle changes, too. Then as time goes on, she sees him (constantly) doing inexplicable things-disappearing suddenly, for instance. Surely the thought would have occurred to her, even if it was only the fanciful, "If only they were the same person!"
I don't think MJ is shallow: bear in mind that she decided to confess love for the lonely, geeky outcast before she knew about his dual-life. If she was shallow, surely she could've found some trophy-husband who wasn't a jackass.
The durability and falling is a bit of a problem. Now, in the comics? Yeah, he can take that sort of licking. In fact, Spider-man gets the stuffing knocked out of him regularly. His enemies are routinely stronger and more numerous than he is, and he's by himself usually. No other X-Men or Avengers or Fantastic Four. But what sets him apart-even in the super-hero / villain realm-is his determination, due to getting kicked around constantly as a kid, and his enormous guilt-complex over Uncle Ben's death. I guess you could say he's like a horse that's being whipped and spurred-that horse goes a lot further than one who isn't.
Spider-Man is my personal favorite super-hero-followed by Batman and then Wolverine. I think it's because they're all three in some measure unique, even among comic-book characters. But if you think the concept is unique now, picture how unique it was when it was first created. Superheroes weren't nerds back then. They didn't get their butts kicked in high school, and their lives didn't get constantly screwed over by their alter-ego's duty. And if a loved one died, it certainly wasn't the hero's fault.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I saw it yesterday. I loved it. I love the theme of it, a simple guy with a special power trying to use it, trying to get along in the world. It was wonderful. I loved Doctor Octopus too. I thought he was a cool character for some reason. Later I ought to write a bit about the hero archetype and how interesting it is. I loved the scene when the people carried him to the back of the train car and laid him down and the one guy said, "he's so young, like my son." I thought it was sweet how he risked life and limb to stop that train.
And why did he have that upside down J impression on his face?
[ August 06, 2004, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Synesthesia ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Finally saw the film and will indulge my inner geek to comment:
1. Wolverine versus Mystique The tight bodysuit distracted him? Seriously, Logan is depicted as having been an expert hand-to-hand specialist long before he ever joined the X-men or got his claws. That being said, there's only so much you can do with actor limitations.
2. Parker and Science I was under the impression he was always a physics geek - I could be wrong.
3. Upcoming Villains They have three possibles so far - Hobgoblin (Harry Osborn), John Jameson (Wolfman) and Doctor Connor (Walking Handbag and Shoes)
4. Bad Science Well, yeah. But c'mon - this isn't meant to be reality. And I suggest you spend an afternoon on the range - the next time you see near-perfect marksmanship in a tv/movie, you'll start giggling.
5. Loss of powers I chalked it up to physical exhaustion - and it raised an interesting question, "just how much web fluid does his body store and how fast is it refilled?" Parker was doing his best to juggle school, work and find time to indulge in his powers?
6. Mask coming off I was a little annoyed, but I suspect they wanted to have more face-actor time for Maguire and less "Shakespeare from Godzilla" moments.
7. More movies Given the life of the comic itself, the actors could do nothing but Spiderman movies - but I doubt any of the cast will want to limit themselves in such a manner. I suspect they will do a third film and leave the movies at three.
8. Wow, was I distracted Apparently I missed a lot of the subtle hints in the film - which means I get to go back and watch it again.
And considering I was sitting next to a bunch of kids, one "older" brother was yelling at the top of his lungs to his "younger" sister - "Don't worry, <this> happens...". I think the kid would have been lucky if all I threw was a gatorade bottle.
-Trevor
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: 5. Loss of powers I chalked it up to physical exhaustion - and it raised an interesting question, "just how much web fluid does his body store and how fast is it refilled?" Parker was doing his best to juggle school, work and find time to indulge in his powers?
I like this point. I am going to decide to think of it this way, even if the movie makers didn't intend or communicate it. Bravo for bringing this idea to light!
quote: I suspect they will do a third film and leave the movies at three.
Three is a good number. They ought to leave it at three. After all, if they try to drag it out forever, we all know it will just go down hill. It is some natural law of entertainment.
[ August 07, 2004, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by T_Smith (Member # 3734) on :
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Oh look, she ran away from her wedding. How cute.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
). I think you just have to assume that it is always going and not obvious. They make it obvious when it really needs to be with the diner/car scene being the most obvious (and, even though they showed it in the previews, it still really worked well). They don't make it obvious but you know it is working when Spidey ducks in time to avoid a bridge or at times avoids a punch or two (though with 6 limbs coming at you, even spidey sense makes it hard).![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I had to get up, too (yesterday for me, actually). I was surprised I did so well the day after with only 3 hours sleep. Maybe it was the pent up energy used to keep me from spoiling the movie for my wife, even though I just had to tell her about it! I got out "It was cool, and..." before her glare had MY Spidey sense tingling...trouble brewing, time to get out of Gotham.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)