The tallest people in the world, according to this article, are the Dutch.
quote:The Dutch as a whole are now the tallest people in the world, while Americans, who held that title for two centuries, stopped growing 50 years ago.
At the end of World War II, the average American male was nearly 5 foot 10, while the average Dutchman measured little more than 5 foot 7. But starting in the 1950s, the Dutch began shooting up, an average of almost an inch per decade, to the point that the average height for an adult Dutch male today is just under 6 foot 1.
A new survey that measured 10,000 Dutch schoolchildren confirms their status as the world's tallest and suggests that the growth trend will keep up for at least a decade. Scandinavians and other Northern Europeans experienced similar growth spurts. So have the once-short Japanese.
During the same period, Americans expanded horizontally but not vertically. The average height of the American male today is stuck at 5 feet 9 1/2 inches. U.S. women have actually lost a third of an inch and are on average slightly over 5 foot 4.
So why are Americans shrinking? Is it a change in diet and health care, a product of uneven economic distribution (as the article goes on to explore), or something genetic?
My thought first off was: Well, there are a lot more Mexican immigrants in the US now than there were after World War II, couldn't that racial difference be changing the average?
But it does point out that the Japanese are growing - and a Chinese friend of mine once told me that Chinese Americans are taller in subsequent generations because they start drinking milk when they live here.
So maybe what we thought was racial shortness is really just economic shortness. Maybe if the Japanese had grown up with dairy animals, they'd be just as tall as us. Maybe the Mexican immigrants really are shorter, not because of their Mixtec ancestors but because we keep them economically oppressed.
I'd like to think it's this simple, but then again, I've spent time in southern Mexico where people are of Zapotec heritage and are significantly shorter, though not significantly poorer, than northern Mexicans.
Hmmm.... any thoughts?
Posted by Jalapenoman (Member # 6575) on :
My Dad is 6'1". My mother is 5'6". My brothers are 6'5" and 6'. My sister is 5'11". I am a male and am 5'8". Go figure.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Annie, Interesting. I thought Americans were getting bigger and taller.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Huh. Well, the tallest woman that I know online (of those whose heights I know) is indeed Dutch . . . Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
We're certainly getting bigger, just not taller Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Oh, and another thought that debunks ethnic reasons:
My Dad's family is of Dutch descent and of all my ancestors, they are by far the shortest and fattest. My brother and I are both rather tall, but wherever it comes from, it isn't our Dutch genes. Any tallness in our family is only seen in the German Jew line.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My mother, grandmother, and great grandmother are/were all tall for women of their era, and of Dutch descent.
My husband's family is very tall, and they are of german-English descent.
All my kids' pediatricians are very tall. I have always thought that was weird. (they are not Dutch, though)
Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
Goldmember takes on a whole new light now...Thanks Annie!
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"So why are Americans shrinking?"
I would say that a lot of it is probably due to demographics. We've seen a lot of immigration, unlike the Dutch, and especially from Asian countries (which, height-wise, have a ways to go to catch up.)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
But I am not sure if it is "catching up." I have heard that shorter people tend to live longer.
Posted by Book (Member # 5500) on :
I thought Eastern Europeans were ridiculously tall. My friend went to Czechoslovakia (I have no idea if that's spelled right) and he said that everyone there was over six and a half feet tall. Also the women were all gorgeous.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
My WASP father is 6'4'' and my Austro-English Jewish Mother is 5'7". I am 5'4". However, doctors have attributed my height to early puberty. I was my full adult height at 10 years old. My entire family was terrified that I would be 6' and never get married .
My husband's entirely Jewish family is very, very tall. His German-Polish father is 6' exactly, his Russian-Polish mother is 5'10" and his younger brother is 6'3". Andrew is 6'5". Both of his father's brothers are around 5'9", but his paternal grandfather was 6".
I am very curious about the height of our future child (which will most likely be a boy). Both Andrew and I obviously have tall genes, but you never know.
The people in Iceland were quite tall (and spectacularly beautiful). There were times where Andrew wasn't the tallest person in the room, which he loved. I always thought that Scandinavians tended to be taller than average.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Mrs. M, I have heard it said, and I have also noticed it to work, that children will usually get their height from their mother's brother, and if there is no brother, look to your maternal uncle.
[ July 04, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Really? I've never heard that one. Hmmmm.
Andrew's mother only had a sister, who was also very tall. My maternal uncle is 6'.
Have they determined which gene determines height, I wonder? Maybe the Hatrack science types can tell us.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's not a single gene. There are genes that control maximum bone length; ones that determine how much HGH (human growth hormone) will be released, and for how long; and, um, some others that are relevant but I forget. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
According to the height chart, I should be 5'9". Stupid early puberty. My feet and head are both pretty big, too.
CT, wasn't it weird to go from being tall to being average? It was for me. I hated being the tallest in the class and taller than all the boys. They caught up to me in 6th grade and I was pretty happy, but then everyone passed me and I married a man more than a foot taller than me. Needless to say, I have a lot of heels.
Our future son's estimated height is 6'1.5". However, it estimates that Andrew and his brother should be that height, too. I remember my MIL telling me that she flipped out in the pediatrician's office when he told her that a child's height is double how tall he is at age 2. If that were the case, Andrew would be 6'10". Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
quote: My friend went to Czechoslovakia (I have no idea if that's spelled right) and he said that everyone there was over six and a half feet tall. Also the women were all gorgeous.
My wife is Czechoslovakian. And she is tall (5'11''). And I think she is gorgeous.
With a nice pair of heels, she is as tall or a bit taller than me! And I do confess, I have always been hopelessly attracted to tall women.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
Sadly, I will never know whether I might have gotten taller. All that metal in my spine...
(Well, technically, it's the vertebral fusion, but that sounded funny.)
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I've finally figured out why CT doesn't like to there to exist photos of her.
It's because, having seen some, I know full well that her self-assessment is way off. Not "gazelle-like" indeed! Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Mrs. M,
I don't think CT answered, but I think her experience in terms of going from "tallest" to the shortie range is not uncommon in girls/young women. It was true of my ex, who hit puberty and achieved her full height at the age of ten or so. At 5' 6", she towered over her classmates for a couple years. By the end of high school, she was on the short range.
I'm 5' 1" and some change myself - it's probable that my height is due to a number of issues, one of which may be my hydrocephalus. For some reason, short stature is pretty common among people with the condition. No one is really sure why.
Posted by kwsni (Member # 1831) on :
i belive it. I live in Grand rapids, which was settled almost entirely by the dutch. I'm 5'8", and I was SHORT in my high school. Frightening.
Ni!
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Hey - I think I've figured it out.
When plants have limited sunlight, they produce gibberellin, which causes their cells to elongate and their stalks to grow really long and spindly, reaching for light.
This is why Scandinavians are so tall and Mexicans are so short! It's just a matter of sunlight accessibility.
I'm glad I've figured that out. Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Mexicans are short?
Ha ha! Puny mortals, try to tell Lalo he no big! Ha ha!
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
<-- 5'10" and Dutch
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
My whole point (and the argument of the article) is that ethnicity doesn't really matter. The Dutch were shorter than Americans in 1950.
So what do we think about that?
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:You know, Stephen, I've never had my head imaged. You think, maybe ... ? *wonders
Hmmm... Thinks....
Here's the thing - most of us whose heads became enlarged as babies no longer have enlarged heads as adults. I've asked a couple physicians about this and they tended to misunderstand the nature of my question about the why of this, leading me to believe no one really understands why our bodies "caught up" with our heads. That means that for a time, our heads grew at a slower pace than the rest of our bodies. Like I said, I've asked a couple people if they understand the mechanism, and the response was to misunderstand the question (this is a not uncommon technique some physicians use to avoid saying "I don't know."). Not my current one, btw - he feels free to express when he thinks he's out of his depth.
The fact is some people just have big heads. Unless we want to pathologize everything below the fifth percentile and above the 95th, maybe we should just leave it at that.
Your feet, though, are another matter. Any chance there's a sasquatch lurking in the family tree? Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'm exactly the height the calculator said I'd be. o_O (five four).
And I'm of Scots-Irish descent.
And look Nordic.
Go figure.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
I think I know this one... Asian peoples used to be shorter because of the limitations of a rice diet. When they got better diets -- and more complete proteins, they began to catch up.
Americans get TOO much protein, and that causes puberty to kick in earlier. The later you experience puberty (at least with girls), the taller you get, because once puberty kicks in you only grow "x" amount taller.
Puberty has been getting earlier and earlier for American girls because Americans eat too much protein. If I remember right, European girls experience puberty later. Early puberty is probably not a very healthy thing... especially not emotionally, to be having your hormones and your body developing so young, while you've got so much emotional and mental maturing to do yet...
Anyway, yeah, I definitely remember noticing all the tall Europeans when I visited Europe, and definitely noticed all the tall European women
[ July 05, 2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: plaid ]
Posted by ReikoDemosthenes (Member # 6218) on :
I went to a school of people who were mostly from the Nederlands, it was the Fries who were the tallest there. At 5'9" I felt short. The tallest guy I was familier with was 7'2"
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Considering that the most common combinations in Asian diets are rice with beans and/or tofu, I think you're wrong about the incomplete proteins, plaid. Now, that they get insufficient nutrition is likely true of far too many. Posted by odouls268 (Member # 2145) on :
6'5"
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I'm 5'1", and the calculater said I could only be 5'2". Then the growth chart predicted I'd only be 5'1.1". Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm 5'11. I've said it time and time again, it's tall enough to be annoying but not tall enough to sound tall. But I tower over my 5'0 mother and 5'2 father, frequently losing them in crowds, bookstores and tall grass. Makes me greatful for every inch I got.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Every Scandanavian I've ever met was very tall, so I agree with the original article.
First one I met was this GORGEOUS blond, blued eye, 6'6" guy out in California, -- I don't remember if he was Dutch, or from Norway or Sweden. But he was just beautiful. So it gave me a very good impression of people from that region..... <grin>
FG
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
rivka, while they may have been getting enough protein to prevent malnutrition, I think the idea is that americans are eating excess protein. But it could be our high starch habits as well. If one isn't eating enough veggies and legumes, one is going to be overconsuming either protein or starch, both of which tax the pancreas.
The pancreas, in addition to insulin (which is required by sugar/starch) and glucagon (which is required by protein et. al.) also makes somatostatin which is the negative feedback mechanism for Growth Hormone (somatotrophin). One would think that inadequate somatostatin would lead to more growth, but if the imbalance is great enough the body could be scaling back on the Growth Hormone production so that all hell doesn't break loose, metabolically speaking. That is just one speculative scenario, something else that hasn't even been discovered yet could be to blame.
I'm looking at my body atlas again and somatostatin inhibits the insulin and glucagon production as a secondary effect. So if kids are eating a lot of chips and washing it down with pop, the pancreas may release somatostatin to calm the insulin spikes, but it would also be slowing down the growth. I don't know if the pancreas really responds in that way, just another speculation. I really think preponderance of starch and sugars is a bigger problem than excess protein for most kids.
[ July 06, 2004, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm 5'8", and the predictor said 5'7.5". That's close enough for me - I'm sold.
However, my brothers are all full-grown and are 5'6", 5'11", and 6'1" respectively. Makes no sense at all.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
Accoring to the height calculator, I should be 5'7". I'm only 5'4.75". I've been robbed of over 2 inches!!!
As a kid I was always the shortest. Usually by a long way, but I went through puberty kind of late and caught up to most of my friends along the way. I still think of myself as short, but I was suprised to read recently that I am slightly over the average height for american women.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
I've always been the short one. It was never a big deal to me - I'm maxed out at 5'2" on a good day. I hate heels, so that's not an option. I'm happy with being a shortie-pie. My hubby's 5'7" or 5'8". My mom is 5'.25", and my dad is 5'7". I'm essentially Irish-Texan. Mom's from Dublin, and my dad's family originated from Germany in the 1600s. My sister's best friend for the past 15 years was 6'3" in 5th grade. She's now 6'5", a blonde goddess, and when she visited Norway she said she'd "found her people." Maybe there's a little truth to this after all. I will add that I think that the American propensity for growing OUT and not UP is definitely a result of diet.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Heh. Why is CT talking when I could be, in the full magnificence of my grand voice booming from my large chest and resounding from my great height?
There's a reason the Oompa-Loompas were Willy Wonka's bitches and not the other way around, y'know.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Was that an offer? I'll gladly inspect to ensure that it is, in fact, a magnificent chest -- I'll leave no stone unturned, no analogy unsuited for a Mormon forum unused.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
I really don't know my parents' heights--and in my dad's case, don't really have the opportunity to ask anymore. So the chart is useless to me. I think dad is a little taller than me, mom a little shorter. I might have grown taller if I hadn't had to have that back operation. When I was about eleven or twelve, I suddenly sprouted up half a foot in one week, and several of the men in mom's family are really tall instead of just looking like it because they're skinny.
That was, in fact, the beginning of the series of events that led to all those operations--a jump like that put a real strain on my body.
Posted by Dante (Member # 1106) on :
Sure, there's diet, genetics, and puberty timing. And then there are some of us that are just mutants.
My dad is 5'11", and my mom is 5'2". I tower over her at about 5'4". Both of my parents are mongrel northern Europeans (including, interestingly, a Dutch great-grandmother), and as far as I know, I ate more or less the same things as all of my classmates. I think I hit puberty at a fairly normal 13ish or so (at least that's the summer I remember everyone asking if I had a cold). My sisters are 5'4", 5'6", and 5'5". I have seven uncles, none of whom is under six feet (nor are any of their sons, I think).
So, as far as mutations go, it's not as cool as, say, super powers. But it's much cooler than most alternatives, I suppose.
Posted by Mabus (Member # 6320) on :
You tower at 5'4"?
Maybe you mean 6'4"?
Posted by Erik Slaine (Member # 5583) on :
When you are 5'4" and you're Mom is 5'2", you do tower over her.
(Mine is 5', and I'm a huge 5'3".)
Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
My wife is 3/4 Dutch. Her father, born in Holland just before WWII, is well over six feet tall. Her brother is also over six feet. Her grandfather, who immigrated to the U.S. with his family following the war, was also well over six feet, and that was after he was eighty and stooped. In addition, that whole family was severely malnourished during the war, and so my father-in-law and his siblings might not be as tall as they could have been if they had eaten well as children.
On the other hand, my wife's Dutch grandmother is one of the tiniest women I have ever met, and would be even without her stoop.
Why doesn't someone do a study showing that the Dutch are the stubbornest people in the world?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Who's that very tall tribe in Africa?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So much for Annie's sunlight-deprivation theory. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
The Watutsi also have the best-constructed roofs in Africa, as opposed to the Pygmies, whose holey roofs let all kinds of sunlight in.
My sunlight hypothesis is totally unthreatened. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Yeah, of course I had to weight in on this eventually... In terms of genetics, I had no chance of being anything but taller than average.
Father's side. Grandfather - 6' 2" Grandmother - 5' 9" Father - 6' 4" Father's brothers: 6' 0" and 6' 3" (female cousins 5' 10" and 6' 2")
Mother's side. Grandfather - 6' 0" Grandmother 5' 11" Mother - 5' 8" Mother's sisters 6' 0" and 6' 0" (cousins ranging from 5' 10" to 6' 6")
Which, of course means my 6' 6" was far from shocking (although according to that double your height at three years, I was supposed to be 6' 8"). I don't feel cheated, mostly because I hit my head on enough things as it is. Oh, and for the record no Dutch ancestors (at least not recent enough to mention).
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
And he's gonna fight me to the death!
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Bye, Lalo. We'll send flowers.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
YOU might.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Ok, I wanna know about hand/foot size versus height. Mine don't match up. I'm 5'6", which is pretty good for a woman, right? But my hands are freakishly small; my wedding ring is a size 3 and 3/4. Pretty sure my feet are normal, so that's good. I also have a "tiny shrunken head" as my sister calls it. I can't wear adult-sized hats or glasses.
space opera
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I got lucky, height-wise. My father's 6' and my mother's 5' and the lottery gave me a serviceable 5'9" or so. Prolly just a tiny bit less than that, but it sounds impressive so I like to say it. My brother is not quite so lucky so far. He's 15 and about... 5'6".
As for the Japanese, the reason that a lot of the older people in Japan are short is because they lived during the war, and their formative periods were taken when it was hard to find anything but wood fiber to eat, to say nothing of rice.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
ryuko,
are you really 5'9"?
fallow
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Ummm Yes? Is that bad?
:/
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
No, it's great! I'm 5'9" too. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*pulls Ryuko and Rivka aside*
you gals ever done any modeling? catwalk? local mall seasonal fashion shows?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Nope.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I swore I was 5'10" for years, but now I've realized that somewhere I lost an inch, so I'll join the 5'9" party
And I was lucky enough to get proportional hands and feet, but unlucky to get them fully-grown at age 13. I've worn a size 10 shoe since 6th grade. And my hands and head are so blasted big I can never wear normal women's gloves and hats. I even have a hard time finding sunglasses.
But you know what they say about girls with big hands....
They grab all the piñata candy! Mwa ha ha ha!
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
good! good, good, good.
*claps hands together*
*whispers*
cuz, you see. I'm looking for some raw talent. And, well... trust me. I know it when I see it.
*looks around*
how do you feel about silk?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Height does not a model make.
However, it may make an amazon... Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
But it does make a cool chick, R-dog. Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*snaps fingers in front of Ryuko's face*
nevermind the modeling. can you act? and, are you afraid of haunted houses?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Silk, fallow? Dunno, a silk scarf might make an excellent garrote.
*eyes fallow's neck*
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
annie,
may I call you annie?
*purses lips*
what DO you do with that frame?
fallow
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Hang pictures in it, mostly.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*checks nametag*
rivka!
good thinking. can't have a haunted tavern without a few GHASTLY *gasps* garrotings!
how do you feel about gardening? on bended-knee, hands dirty, rooting about the carrots, squash and *wink* witch-wanton herbs?
fallow
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
Annie,
Lovely spot to hang one!
Ever longed to live in a tower?
fallow
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Yes, but last time I tried that my cousin the Queen had me beheaded.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
willing to try again, though. excellent. good choice. ever performed any of your own stunts?
*turns to rivka and ryuko*
ladies?
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I can do my own stunts, I guess. O.o
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Um, she can do mine too. Cuz I sure ain't!
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Stunt was, by far, the best Barenaked Ladies album.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*passes out - business cards*
so, listen. A friend and myself found this abandoned house *points yonder*. We've been converting it into a theatre of sorts... doing a little writing, a little acting, improv, that sorta thing...
it's a little out of the way, for the typical audience, but I think it can be spruced up.
*shrugs*
any interest?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
17.9% apr.
Compounded whenever I have Chinese food.
Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
*shushes annie*
I didn't want to say this outloud, but the performances are strictly MSG-free, low-carb, and, well... generally speaking... low impact.
*points at knee brace* Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Um, getting back to the science aspect of this thread... there's a study suggesting that early puberty is influenced by TV:
quote:A recent Italian study has found that watching too much television may distort the hormonal balance of adolescents and push many of them into early puberty.
The study found children denied access to television for just one week experienced a 30% jump in their melatonin levels. The hormone is thought to prevent the early onset of puberty. If confirmed, this would be the first sign of a direct physiological impact of television upon the young.
Radiation may be to blame Research focused on 75 junior-school children in an Italian village, whose parents agreed to deny them access to television, computers and video games for a week. Ball games, public reading and other activities were organized to involve parents and children.
The scientists hypothesize that the light and radiation coming from television and computer screens disturbs the production of melatonin.
Some animals use melatonin to time their reproduction, changing it to suit their environments. In humans, the hormone regulates the body's internal clock. Levels are at their lowest in the daylight hours, but peak in the evening around eight o'clock as the body prepares for sleep.
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