I am very sick of hearing degreeless people being spoken of as if they are somehow less knowledgeable than degreed people. It makes me vomit a little bit in my mouth each time I come across this attitude. I hear this in my professional and social life all the frikkin time. We are supposed to encourage youth to pursue a college education so they won't end up jobless losersor god forbid custodians and carpenters. Never have I heard acknowledgement of the fact that it's not possible for every single high school student to even go to college. Never is it acknowledged that maybe our push for degrees for work that can be handled equally well by self-taught learners is a perpetuation of the system of privilege that so many frown upon and want to rid of.
I've often thought about the reasons as to why I never went to college. I know what my reasons were initially, but I know that I was privileged to make a choice as to whether or not to go. I wonder if maybe one of the ways I can take advantage of that privilege is to bring awareness to the validity of self-education. Starting with the very young, and those past their college years. Make it be known that not going to college yet succeeding is in no way the easy way out and indeed can be honorable. We are all learning all the time, and many of us do just fine without someone telling us how and what to learn.
I seem to be doing more than alright. That's what my mom says anyway.
<edited to fix the title. Look, I'm degreeless and am a foriegner. What do you expect?>
[ August 03, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: NdRa ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Count me among the choir, degree or not.
However, it's perpetuated by people with degrees to justify the energy and money spent in acquiring one.
And, to some extent, speaking in broad strokes, having a degree is a reasonable guarantee of something.
I'm just not sure of what yet.
And, to be fair, you can still succeed in some jobs without degrees. Although they are increasingly requiring their own sets of certifications and bits of paper.
-Trevor
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I also think this attitude has watered down college. If everyone is supposed to get a degree, higher learning becomes "life skills 101" and it's difficult to get a good scholastic education in the larger public universities.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
My younger sister doesn't have a degree and is very successful. I will have my bachelor's soon, and plan to one day get a phD. However, I'm an english major, so I'm never going to be rich. I try to stress to my kids that college is not just about getting a degree. I just love the academic environment. I love reading interesting things and discussing them with people, and I love how college constantly pushes me to expand my horizons. Would I have loved college so much ten years ago? No. I think everyone has to make the choice that's right for them.
space opera
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Basically, Annie.
There was another thread about "dumbing down education" - which, if memory serves, you either started or commented in.
People going through the motions without really appreciating why they're going through the motions, nor the point of the motions themselves.
-Trevor
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
I recognize that some careers require a college education. I wouldn't want to have brain surgery done on me by a surgeon that was self-educated.
But as far as feeling as though I am somehow not as qualified for what I do, or not as capable as far as getting any job within my skill set done properly because of lacking the necassary trophy is frustrating.
The feeling really is equivelant to the one I get when walking into a posh Beverly Hills bar carrying my Guess purse instead of my Louis Vutton.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
You do not need a degree to be successful - Wes and I are proof of it.
What you do need to be successful is a willingness to work damn hard.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
Motivation and diligence will take you far. This applies whether or not you have a degree.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Annie, although I don't disagree with your observation that requiring more and more high school graduates to attend university just to obtain qualification for low skilled jobs is "dumbing down" higher education, I also think that attending a university can be the "life 101" that an individual needs to get a jump start on his or her life. I have two relatively technical degrees that I haven't really had the opportunity to use during my career. However, I wouldn't give up the experience of obtaining them.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I do love college (heh- I've been there long enough I ought to by now) and agree it's entirely important in my life.
I think the problem is that, socially, that's what we're all expected to do after high school. Why aren't technical programs and apprenticeships available to young adults who need to grow up a bit and get out on their own? Why is anything other than going to college seen as substandard?
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Are you sure that it's not just the environment that you were brought up in that sees anything but university as substandard?
I know that it was the goal when I graduated. I also remember a number of people being disappointed that they were not going to be able to attend. However, I also don't remember a huge stigma being placed upon those who weren't going to attend.
I guess my point is that maybe if we are raised in a middle class American family we're expected to desire college education. But maybe that isn't true of "America" at large. I could easily be out of touch here. It has been a while.
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
quote:Why is anything other than going to college seen as substandard?
Does it really matter? If you are secure in your choice why worry what others think of it?
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
quote:I am very sick of hearing degreeless people being spoken of as if they are somehow less knowledgeable than degreed people.
I don't mean to be rude, but I have to say that I think, in general, people with degrees are more knowledgable than people without degrees, at least about whatever their course of study concentrated on. This doesn't necessarily mean that people with degrees have stronger thinking stills or are in some way "better" than those without degrees, nor that people without degrees are stupid. But I have to say that I'd be kind of surprised if an English major didn't know more about writing literary analysis papers or an engineering major didn't knw more about circuits than the typical high school graduate. Not to say that a person without a degree couldn't teach himself to write good analyses of Nabokov and Proust or how to design an integrated circuit, but my experience is that in general the people who don't have formal training in a subject tend to know less about it than people who do.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Saxon75,
Yes, but it's tough when the degree itself becomes the goal, not the knowledge. This does happen in our society, both at the entry level and middle management. Annie was referring to entry level. I have a similar experience much later in life. I have to have a master's degree to get promoted beyond my current grade. But it doesn't matter one iota to the US Govt. what the subject is, or even if I learn anything getting the degree. Many of my peers find a degree program that has little or no work and "fill the square".
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
Saxon - My industry has often shown quite the contrary to what you are saying Saxon. I'm a Web Developer that started off as a Graphic Arist. I started with a whole team of people that had degrees, but slowly they all were picked off. Their college education didn't save them. The few scattered degreeless souls in my company are also the few most senior members.
Careers that can be handled by self-taught learners can be done so just as well, if not better. This should be made aware to people who feel as though they have a niche, yet for whatever reason don't want to or can't make it to college. I am not the only example of this as I happen to know many people that excel degreeless in a myriad of industries.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Did your former co-workers have degrees in web development? I actually didn't even know there were such things. The thing about a field like web development is that I could see where someone with a CS degree could get tripped up by a lack of visual design experience or creative ability and someone with an arts degree might not have the right experience in structured programming, but someone self-taught (or possibly someone with a few community college courses under his belt but no degree) would be well-rounded enough to be the best of both worlds.
I agree that there are any number of fields that you can go into and be extraordinarily financially successful without a degree. Some, like real estate, don't even typically require a college degree to work in (although, to be fair, real estate does require a lot of training and certification). The problem is that a lot of jobs are in more of a grey area, where a degree might help or might not, but the job still requires a degree. I'd imagine that there are lots of business-type jobs out there like that. So you get a whole bunch of people in jobs that have nothing to do with their major. I find myself wondering what your former co-workers majored in. I mean, to be a park ranger, for example, you need a degree, but it could be a biology degree or a history degree or an English degree; it doesn't much matter.
There is surely a lot of room for self-learners, for intuition, for hard work and determination. There are, I'm sure, loads of fields where you could teach yourself everything you need to know. I would think, though, that some subset of those fields consists of jobs where, even though you could get by without a degree, it might be useful to get the degree. And in most cases, self-learners do even better in college than those who have to be led around by the nose.
Either way, though, what difference does it make in the end? You didn't go to college and you're doing pretty well for yourself. Other people did go and are doing pretty well for themselves. And there are people in both categories who are failing. In my opinion, anyone who would belittle you for not having a degree isn't worth your time anyway.
Posted by Danzig (Member # 4704) on :
I am about halfway into my college career, and I really wish I had taken a year off between high school and college. I went because it was what everyone did, and I had never really thought about doing anything else. I am staying in now though, because if I left I doubt come back.
College certainly does not prepare people to be financially responsible, either. Lots of students at my school are racking up credit card debt. On the other hand, lots of successful small business owners never completed a degree.
Posted by slacker (Member # 2559) on :
quote: I am very sick of hearing degreeless people being spoken of as if they are somehow less knowledgeable than degreed people.
I deal with people at work constantly that are a good reason why so many people feel like this.
I'm quite sure that a majority of people that call me don't have degrees (some I'm pretty sure are illiterate), and we're not allowed to ask (I brought this up a few months ago at work).
I deal with people at work who are unable to either read the directions (go to screen X, press button Y, wait for report W to print) or are unable to comprehend the directions (I'm not counting those who don't speak english as a first language).
I still can't figure out why people that can't even do their job competantly still get to keep their job, but that's another rant.
Still, I do agree with you that the paper hanging on the wall doesn't make the person more intelligent, but I think it's an overall sign that the person has at least nominal knowledge in that field.
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
Right, a stamp of approval that costs a lot of money and requires years of your time.
I know several people with degrees who barely have a pulse let alone much upstairs who are not competant for the job they are supposed to be doing.
My experience does have a lot to do with the industry I am in. You defenitly don't have to go to college to be a techie geek.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As a successful, degree-less person, Sandy, I agree completely. I've ranted on this topic before. Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
quote:I know several people with degrees who barely have a pulse let alone much upstairs who are not competant for the job they are supposed to be doing
And I can point out hundreds that don't have a degree that are at least that incompetant. This point doesn't mean anything. No piece of paper indicates competance, even if people like to think that it does.
We're all sorry your so downtrodden, crushed under the weight of the system of privilege and all, do please try not to bleed too much as you martyr yourself.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"No piece of paper indicates competance, even if people like to think that it does."
I think, in your haste to mock her for whining, you overlooked the fact that this was what she was actually whining ABOUT. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I'm proof that you can have a degree and still be a loser. Sort of. Not to say all at home moms are losers. Well now I've gone and stuck my foot in it. I guess no more that I would be implicating as well all jatraqueros with a post count over 4000.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I am proof that you can have a graduate degree and still be a loser.
OK, I don't think I'm a loser. But I do think people who consider college and graduate school degrees as sure tickets to success have a tough road ahead of them. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:I could see where someone with a CS degree could get tripped up by a lack of visual design experience or creative ability and someone with an arts degree might not have the right experience in structured programming
Heh... I find this funny. The former is Hobbes, the latter is me. He emails me asking how his page looks, and I email him asking how to get my pretty pictures to actually do anything.
The trick with good web design is that it requires you to be just geeky enough and just artsy enough.
I've been in the graphic design program at my university for 3 years, and the experience I've gained there and in the fine arts courses I've had to take is invaluable to me. Not only has my technique improved, but more importantly my ability to discern weak design from strong design has gotten much better. The programs I've learned are vital to the freelance work I now do, as well as the professional contacts I've made as a student in a rural area.
I've got two more semesters if I want my BFA, the second of which consists only of a thesis. To save money, I'm giving up the art degree and graduating in French this December. I tell people what my degree is in and I get all the impracticality jokes, but I think my professional abililties in design far surpass many of my peers.
It basically comes down to learning what you need to know and getting plenty of experience and input from outside the classroom. For me, I would say my training in college contributes about 70% to my capabilites and the rest I've had to develop elsewhere. I imagine it's similar for other disciplines.
Though, what I really want to be is an obscure scholar and stay in college the rest of my life. Who knows?
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
Thumbs up Hollowearth. Try rereading my initial post.
I am not trying to demean those that actually have the patience and time for formal schooling. A part of me wishes I had that type of perserverance. I'm just defending my stance as a productive member of society who happens to have a nice career and feels very competent, moreso than a lot of people that give me lip service regarding this issue.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Sandy,
I'm not trying to say that you are not competent--you are. I'm just saying that I have a little quibble with your choice of words. If you had said that having a degree doesn't generally mean a person is smarter I would have been with you 100%. I was just saying that a person with a degree is generally likely to have more knowledge on one particular subject than a person without a degree in that subject. That's all. Frankly, I have nothing but respect for people that work their way to success, whatever path they take to get there.
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I was actually just going to point out what Alexa said, that the reason a degree is so often a requirement for getting interviews is because it's an easy, measurable statistic for hiring managers. Interestingly enough, the year after I was hired, my company set a new policy such that not only do you need a degree to get an interview for an engineering job, but you also need to have had at least a 3.0 average. I wouldn't even have been considered for the job I have now, which is funny because I'm one of the best engineers in my department (if I might toot my own horn a bit). But I can't necessarily fault the HR department for the policy. They get so many applications that they need to have some way of sorting through them, and even though they are not guaranteed of getting the best with the new policy, they are relatively likely to hire someone who doesn't fall below the desired minimum for new hires.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Some of the most intelligent, well read people I've ever met didn't have college degrees. Some of the biggest morons I've had to deal with have had PhDs. I've known plenty of people without college degrees that have been very, very successfull materially. While I do have a couple of degrees, my job has nothing at all to do with either of them--a BA in Classics and an MA in Teaching English as a Second Language hardly prepared me for a career as a network administrator. I've known plenty of people with PhDs who are destitute, or fairly close to it.
Thinking that people without advanced degrees can't be successful or intelligent is like thinking that people with southern accents are necessarily stupid or uncultured. It's necessarily an unexamined assumption, and a fairly foolish one at that.
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
You know, if I were faced with two people who were doing a job equally well, and one was self-taught, and the other had a degree...I'd have to say I'd pick the one who was self-taught, since I think they'd likely be more innovative, self-starting, and generally useful than the one with the degree.
Why? Because I think it's harder to self-teach and do a difficult job as than it is to go through 4+ years in which the job is tailor-taught.
Not to mention, in my experience, it's quite easy to coast through college without learning much. Whereas if you're self-taught, you know it before, after, and during cram-time for the exam.
quote:...I also think that attending a university can be the "life 101" that an individual needs to get a jump start on his or her life.
It's a good thing you said 'can be', since some college students (and graduates) are the most inept, incapable, and un-knowledgeable people I know about living life. College can often be, not a preparation for life, but a preparation for COLLEGE.
quote:We're all sorry your so downtrodden, crushed under the weight of the system of privilege and all, do please try not to bleed too much as you martyr yourself.
Boy, are you a schmuck . She isn't 'crushed by the system of privilege', you jackass-she's succeeding in spite of smug prejudices of people who think that, really, since they got a degree, it must mean that to get a degree one must be pretty smart.
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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
We're not talking about a straight numbers comparison, though. I do think-although I have no statistics and know of none-that if you compared 75 million degree-holders and 75 million non-degree-holders, that a reasonable person should rely on the degree-holders to have better skills in their field and be generally more intelligent (in some things).
But, still, if you've got two people who do a job equally well, and one has it and the other doesn't, the comparison is different.
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
quote:...I also think that attending a university can be the "life 101" that an individual needs to get a jump start on his or her life.
I've had many people also tell me that as a result of missing out on the college experience, I am a less "well-rounded" person. Along with being self-educated, I am also well-cultured. While many of my peers were sneaking into dorm rooms or drinking out of beer bongs at frat parties, I was living life. Taking my hard-earned money and seeing things and meeting an abundance of different people all over this planet. The "life experience" I gained while spending time delving into diverse perspectives I find to be invaluable. I did not come out of the experience ill-prepared for the jumpstart, I just jumpstarted differently.
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
I can tell you from personal experience that a college degree does NOT guarantee competence. However, it is a big factor in getting most professional jobs.
I never got a degree, but did spend a dozen years as a writer and editor for newspapers and magazines in western North Carolina. In that small area, I was able to work for any company that I wanted to because the body of work I had produced over the years, as well as my reputation, was known to everyone in the region.
Once I moved out of that area, however, I found that my lack of a degree meant that many doors were closed to me in the publishing field. While I have been able to find sporadic freelance work, it has been impossible to get an on-staff position.
You just simply can't get past the Human Resources folks. Sometimes, no matter your experience, not having a degree means you end up in the rejects pile from the very start.
And with the sheer numbers of folks getting degrees every day, that situation isn't likely to change. A university degree can very much be a key that will open many doors.
Of course, if you're willing to go it alone and work your butt off, no simple piece of paper alone can determine your level of success.
[ August 05, 2004, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Lost Ashes ]
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
Students in my program at school are here because they probably won't go to college. They're smart, bright students who honestly would rather learn by working than sit in a classroom all day.
I don't think a degree indicates intelligence or work ethic/skill, however in every staff training I attend they emphasize the importance of encouraging students to contiune their education past high school. That includes a 2-yr degree in culinary arts, or a 6month tech progam at a technical school, or completing a 1 week training in OSHA safety, it doesn't matter the length of the programs, it simply matters that students are certified to work in something other than an entry level job.
In order to be well qualified for many upper-level positions it isn't necessary to be a college graduate, but often it is necessary to have something after high school.
[ August 05, 2004, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Coccinelle ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I did not come out of the experience ill-prepared for the jumpstart, I just jumpstarted differently."
Sadly -- and I speak here as someone who understands -- you can't get this across under "Education" on your resume.
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people I know about living life. College can often be, not a preparation for life, but a preparation for COLLEGE.