I just barely bought a used VHS of Disney's Peter Pan for my kids. I knew my son, especially, would love the escapades of Peter Pan. And I like what it teaches about the importance of mothers.
But then I watched it.
Have you seen how it portrays Native Americans?! I am outraged! I am wondering if I made a mistake. I don't want my kids to grow up thinking that those silly, comical oafs are anything like Native Americans or visa versa. It has a song in which the "Indians" make fun of their own stereotypes, and it isn't done in a way flattering to them. It only serves to make them appear more ridiculous.
Grrrrrr
Did I make a mistake? My kids *love* this movie. They have been watching it every day, multiple times. They would hate it if I took it away now. Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
I remember that too, Beverly. I don't think it's necessarily right to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which is what I'd regard getting rid of Peter Pan the Disneyfied version as being.
This could be quite a good opportunity to enlighten your chilluns on a variety of subjects, though: Native American history, American history, stereotypes, don't believe everything you see, take movies with a grain of salt, etc.
Posted by Insanity Plea (Member # 2053) on :
You're kids are smart, they should be able to discern fact from fiction. Peter Pan is a product of it's time, you can just gently tell them so, they can still enjoy the movie...it is a good story. Satyagraha
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Remember when the film was made - it wasn't intended to be a cultural primer, nor was it in any way intended to depict real Native Americans.
Not that "Pocahontas" was any more realistic, mind you.
I'd let the kids watch it for entertainment value and keep in mind at some point, you might want to explain to them the difference between fiction and reality.
I trust your kids won't try to write a book report based on a movie adaptation.
-Trevor
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Snicker - why am I reminded of the modern retelling of classical fairy tales?
Or the overly politically correct editions?
-Trevor
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I felt the same way when I saw that movie for the first time in college. Maybe what you could do is get all manners of books about Native Americans for children out of the library, pretty nice ones with pictures. Then after they watch it for the 50th time you could show them the books and say, this is what Native Americans are REALLY like and they way they are portrayed in the movie isn't real, isn't the way they are like at all... And then make them do something fun like draw pictures or write about indians or even show them neat things like arrow heads in museums... It's a good way to reverse silly stereotypes that creep in sometimes.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Thanks for the advice. We have owned the movie "Pocahontas" for a lot longer. (Before I was married even.) I am one of the few who actually loves that movie.... Maybe the positive portrayal in "Pocahontas" and the negative portrayal in "Peter Pan" will balance out.
Yeah, I will definitely do what I can to dispell the stereotypes.
[ August 04, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I feel like Peter Pan would be an excellent object lesson for your kids, to explain to them the difference between stereotypes and reality.
Wow, it took me way too long to submit that reply.
[ August 04, 2004, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I liked the music in Pocahontas, but not much else. It is beyond inaccurate.
Here's a great summary of the actual story of Rebecca Rolfe, nee Matoaka (a.k.a. Pocahontas): www.apva.org/history/pocahont.html Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Snicker - ya know, I didn't have the heart to point out just how inaccurate it was.
-Trevor
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I know it is inaccurate. As are all the Disney movies. But for some reason, I really, really, love the Disney Pocahontas story. It... speaks to me.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Heh. Permit me to hide my collection of Disney films.
-Trevor
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
You know, it's funny. Fifty years can make such a difference in public opinion. I see Peter Pan and Pocahontas as two opposite extremes of a spectrum. It's tough being a majority culture commenting on a minority culture.
Peter Pan's depictions of the indians is ludicrous and ignorant and demeaning. However, I don't know many indians who are honestly offended by it. Pocahontas is much more respectful, but in the effort to be respectful, they've transformed a very real human culture into a fantasy world and have been so general as to have lost all real culture.
I live and work with Native Americans on a daily basis. They're a lot more real than most American children believe them to be. We call them indians here because that's what they call themselves. Insider and outsider lose real definition when you live in a reservation area.
My best advice would be, as Syn suggested, let your kids learn all they can about native cultures. There's a great juvenile book series at most libraries on each of the major tribes. However, I'd advise against romanticising the culture. One of my good friends is Blackfeet, and is the first to admit that his tribe is known for ferocity and violence, and when he portrays his culture in his art, he thinks it important to acknowledge and apologize for this history. Make sure your children understand that in the Old West, the indians were not the good guys and the white man the bad guys. I grew up in Colorado, and that's pretty much the story I got: "If it weren't for those evil white men..."
Some really good books I'd reccommend (how old are your kids?) are by Ken Thomasma. Naya Nuki and Soun Tetoken are the more popular books; they're biographical young adult novels about indian children in historical situations.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Pssst--get 'em a copy of the new live action Peter Pan.
And this too.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Bev, do you also cry when Pocahontas waves goodbye to John Smith?
Oh wait, was that a spoiler?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Peter Pan's depictions of the indians is ludicrous and ignorant and demeaning. However, I don't know many indians who are honestly offended by it. Pocahontas is much more respectful, but in the effort to be respectful, they've transformed a very real human culture into a fantasy world and have been so general as to have lost all real culture.
Annie, I sooooo agree with this. In fact, I said as much once on Hatrack and someone got really ticked off at me for it. I think that turning the Native American culture into a fantasy is not necessarily a helpful thing, despite the good intentions. It makes me very sad, actually.
But for some reason, I still luv that movie. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Pssst--get 'em a copy of the new live action Peter Pan.
Oh, dude, you are *so* right. I saw that and *loved* it. I told Porter we need to buy it, and I hardly ever buy movies, so that is really saying something. I will own that movie someday. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
PSI, I think I cried the first time, but I have seen it too many times for it to have as strong an emotional impact on me. But I *love* the bittersweet ending. More movies need to have bittersweet endings! They are soooo much more satisfying to me than cheesy, candy-coated endings. (Though if the movie pleases me enough, I won't mind too much.)
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
That's how I felt about Little Mermaid. Sure she got the guy, but she had to leave her family!
edit: What's a mermiad? o_O
[ August 04, 2004, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
Personally, most of the Disney "classics" I really don't like. Often they took real stories, real fairy tales, beautiful ones, and in their effort to make it child-safe, turned something beautiful or poetic or just real (in the case of Pocahontas) into a pretty little bauble, a souvenir keychain sort o' thing.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Anthro, I agree with that too. I love to tell my kids the real versions of the fairy tales, grimness and bitterness included. It's good for them! Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I agree that the best ending to "Little Mermaid" is the one where she turns into sea foam.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I agree. I like the old versions of faery tales Especially the old version of Little Red Riding hood with NO stupid woodcutter cutting open the wolf's stomach >.<.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
quote:in their effort to make it child-safe, turned something beautiful or poetic or just real (in the case of Pocahontas) into a pretty little bauble, a souvenir keychain sort o' thing.
I entirely agree. I was offended at the liberties they took with Hunchback of Notre Dame. I mean... they didn't even still to the main premise of the story. How can they keep the same title when all they've done is used the names of the characters and discarded all the content?
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
I totally agree about the sea foam ending being the best.
It's a great message for little girls - see what happens when you throw your whole life away for a man? That's how I always saw it, anyway.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
It's not surpising that there we see a lot of people offended by the dumbing/safing down of stories by Disney. After all, the vast majority of the posters here love OSC stories, and many of his stories are beautiful precisely because of the ugliness and pain in them.
[ August 04, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
How about The Hunchback of Notre Dame II, where Quasimodo finds true love? It makes me ill just to think about it - poor Victor Hugo must be spinning in his grave.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Hook that dude up to a generator!
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Yes, if only horrified indignation could be harnessed. Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I never thought about "Little Mermaid" that way, Mrs. M. But it works. I think the best lesson it gives is that things don't always work your way. Tough. Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
quote:I think the best lesson it gives is that things don't always work your way. Tough.
I love it. It's a lesson the kids of the self-esteem generation could really use.
Posted by Anthro (Member # 6087) on :
On that note, I think we should show Grease in schools. It teaches girls if you smoke and dress like a hooker, you'll make more friends.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Disney's Hunchback SUCKED. Big time. At least Pocahontas was a good movie on its own terms (to me at least.)
Good point, Porter, about the feelings here and the love of OSC. That *is* one of the things I love about his stories! Mmmmm, gimmie some bitterness....
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I dunno - the "gypsy burn in flame" spoke to me quite a bit.
"Little Mermaid" - I've been a fan of mythology and folktales for as long as I can remember.
Trying to selling the grim, morbid and sometimes gruesome stories to mainstream America would be nearly impossible. For some reason I am reminded of my cousin, her daughter and Barbie.com.
With that in mind, I happen to like movies like "Beauy and the Beast," "Aladdin," "Tarzan" and one or two others on their own merits. I'm not watching a Disney movie for a great re-telling of the same story. And yes, I know it's almost formulaic and please spare me the feminist editing of the codependent daughter, living with her father until another man comes to rescue her.
For an hour and a half, I'd like to ignore the world outside and lose myself in the rose-colored glass of canned emotions that takes you up and down and with any luck, leaves you feeling happier at the end than you were in the beginning. Sure you can see the roller-coaster track and you're reasonably certain you know what's going to happen next, but it's the ride you're enjoying.
As to literary and historical accuracies - if your child writes a book report on "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" by watching the movie, that F is soundly deserved.
-Trevor
Edit: I'm working on 36 hours without sleep, so if I seem a little...cranky, that may be it.
[ August 04, 2004, 02:43 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I really liked "Beauty and the Beast" and "Tarzan" too. "Aladin" yes, but not as much. "Mulan" is pretty high on my list too.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
My favourite Disney movie of recent times is Hercules. If you want to talk about butchering a story, you need look no further. I mean, seriously. They couldn't even get their pantheon correct - Zeus, Hera, Hades, Apollo, Hermes, and Hercules? Wha? It's especially awful for me to watch as a Classics major...
But it's one of my biggest guilty pleasures. "Hades rules!" And the music!
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was never able to get past the butchery to enjoy Hercules, and I've tried several times.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I liked Disney's Hercules too, as a stand-alone movie despite the butchering. Unfortunately, since Porter cannot forgive the butchering, we have never purchased the movie.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I wouldn't worry about your kids, beverly. Yes, the depiction of Native Americans is completely untrue, but do you're kids think little kids in London fly out windows?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
There ya go. You could say, "That's how indians act in Neverland, but not here on Earth".
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
That's a great explaination!
Thanks again y'all.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
It's interesting - there's one film locked in Disney's vaults due to racial issues. Disney's Song of the South, which features animated versions of Brer Rabbit and friends and some live action.
The live action is on a plantation (although a website claims it's post civil-war, I don't remember it being that clear when I saw it.)
All the black plantation workers wore clean clothes - shiny white shirts even. And they were happy and singing all the time.
I'll be honest - I don't know what I'd like to see happen with things like Song of the South. It's a ridiculous picture of plantation life. But it is also a piece of our culture and done very well (I'm fond of "zippity doo dah" myself and try to ignore the context.)
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
"Song of the South" was an excellent movie. It's the first one I ever saw in the theater! *fond memories*
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I've never been able to see it. I had heard comments of it being racial, but I wanted to see it for myself. Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
I remember watching "Song of the South" in the theater as a child and I was completely confused. I was probably 8 or 9, and I didn't have any idea about the relationships or the social structure at all. So I was lost as to why Uncle Remus was in trouble for telling stories to the little boy, and I had no idea why the rich white woman was so condescending to Uncle Remus.
It would be interesting to watch it now, with education and an adult perspective.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
He was? What sorts of stories? Why? Anyone know?
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
It's been a long time, but the movie is about Remus and a little boy, and he tells him the stories about "Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby" and things like that. Have you heard those stories? They were around before the movie I think.
[ August 04, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Ah, yes, I do know the story. But why would it make anyone mad? The mother should be glad that someone is telling her child wonderous and imaginative stories.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
Maybe because she just saw him as a dirty old black slave or something. Posted by maui babe (Member # 1894) on :
Well, now, that's part of why I was confused. All the stories were about Brer Rabbit, Brer Fox and Brer Bear, and didn't seem remotely controversial to me. I was deeply dissatisfied watching the movie as a child, because I could not figure out what the conflict was. Maybe the adults were upset because the child was shirking his school work to listen to the stories, but I don't think so, because I would have understood that.
I don't know that I'll ever figure it out now, since Disney isn't going to release it.
I guess I'll be confused forever.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Just one of those eternal mysteries. Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
I had a book of Uncle Remus's stories when I was little (in the South, in the 80s) and loved them.
And the Splash Mountain ride still has all the characters from Song of the South. Hmmm...
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:It's been a long time, but the movie is about Remus and a little boy, and he tells him the stories about "Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby" and things like that. Have you heard those stories? They were around before the movie I think.
Yup. Was raised on them - the book in the school library was in the original dialect (I went to elementary school in the early 1960s).
The thing that makes it too embarrassing for Disney to rerelease it (the last time was in the 1980s) is the live-action sequences. They paint a very idyllic picture of plantation life - where the reality is that a few lived off the hard labor of the many. Before and after slavery ended.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It's been released...just not here in the USA.
Racial tentions are too high here, I guess.
Kwea
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
Kwea,
it's not that surprising - it's about a piece of United States culture and history. I think you'll find that other countries have similar issues -- Australia and media portrayals of the aborigines comes to mind as one possible example.
We can view controversial pieces about Australia with interest but without much passion. It's not surprising they can do the same with us.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Maybe I'll have to buy a bootleg copy. Unfortunately, I don't particularly want to buy something I haven't seen and seems like it might be questionable.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
bev,
check it out with ebay. I think Kwea's right about it being released outside of the U.S. The bad news is that most videos would be in PAL format - so you'll need an adapter or pay to have it transferred.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As for Hercules - yeah, I was less than amused at the conversion from mythical hero to comparisons with today's sports "heroes."
Although once I got past that, I enjoyed the movie on it's own merits. It doesn't even have any catchy tunes - it just struck a chord.
And yes, I do own a copy. I even watch it now and again.
-Trevor
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Beauty and the Beast and Mulan are the best... I like Hercules because they used the word Schmeel and that word makes me giggle
Posted by Nato (Member # 1448) on :
quote:Annie said: I entirely agree. I was offended at the liberties they took with Hunchback of Notre Dame. I mean... they didn't even still to the main premise of the story. How can they keep the same title when all they've done is used the names of the characters and discarded all the content?
Can anybody say I, Robot? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Eh, didn't they just slap on that title as an after-thought? I don't think it was supposed to have anything to do with Asimov. I hear it ain't a bad flick.
Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
IIRC, the mother in Song of the South was upset with Uncle Remus because she (wrongly) regarded his stories as "upsetting" to her child. But then again, I haven't seen the movie since 1984 or so, so I might be remembering it wrong.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
What about the Disney nazi videos? I thought those were locked up as well...
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
They did release Song of the South, but only on video and only for a very short time.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Maybe the positive portrayal in "Pocahontas" and the negative portrayal in "Peter Pan" will balance out.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I guess I'll be confused forever.