This is topic So, how does one become a man, anyway? in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.


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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
Okay, I've been twenty-four for a little over a week and a half now. I live in my own apartment, by myself, and I pay my rent and my bills entirely with the money I make working. I buy my own groceries and make my own dinner. By any measureable standard, I am an adult.

But I still don't feel like a man. I don't think of myself as a man. Sure, I left boyhood behind a long time ago, but it feels weird to me to have the word 'man' applied to me. As far as I can tell, I'm just a 'guy'.

The problem is that we don't have any socially recognized rites of passage in the United States. It would be so much easier if there were some task that I could perform, so that the elders of my family could say to me, "Today, you are a man!" But we don't have anything like that. We don't have any defined way to mark the transition from boyhood into manhood. (Or, as far as I know, from girlhood into womanhood. But since I'm not trying to be a woman, that doesn't concern me as much here.)

So, what do I have to do before I can call myself a 'man' and not feel weird about it? Get married? Father a child? Buy a house? Kill a boar with a spear? Turn thirty? Sell my video games? What's it gonna take, huh?
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
Well, Verily... living by yourself and paying your own bills would be considered a rite of passage.

Another one, would be marrying and fathering child.

But you see, in the eyes of society, you're already an adult. You work, you are responsible (I think), you pay your own bills... As it is, the "problem" is only your self-perception.

Oh, yes. Don't sell your videogames. When you finally turn into an adult, you would not want to be a boring one, eh?
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Or after you've dated me...
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
My definition of a man, as opposed to a guy: someone who, through his labor and the donation of the fruits of his labor, contributes more to society than his existence.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 

quote:

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someone who, through his labor and the donation of the fruits of his labor, contributes more to society than his existence.

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Yup... same thing... after you've dated me.

But seriously, this is a good one. There are many different milestones for manhood. I'm sure all of the ones posted and will be posted are correct.
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
I agree with TomDavidson.

And by the way...every society has rites of passage. In some of them, like ours, they're unwritten and, sometimes, unspoken, but they exist.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
I thought that the rite was that you had to engage Slash in single combat. The survivors are men.

I suspect that this means that officially, Ralphie is a man.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Now you're a man! Man oh man oh man!
 

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Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
 
Does it make me gay to say I think Ralphie's one fine hunka man?
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Having a child will definately make you suddenly feel....uh...older. It kind of shocks you into adulthood (in a good way, I mean)

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by aspectre (Member # 2222) on :
 
Enjoy your youth until you at least hit thirty.
One day you'll be in a store, and the clerk will say "Thank you, sir" or "Thank you, mam". And the clerk, waitress, or bouncer won't ask for your ID. A younger person will hold the door open for you, or offer you their seat.
Then you'll realize that being an adult ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Yes Jeff. Yes it does.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
You know, I've never minded being addressed as "sir" by clerks. (The first time it happened it kind of startled me, though. I was pretty young, and was getting gas after having gone to a job interview. I'd worn a suit to the interview, so I suspect that the gas station attendant was addressing the costume as much as the person wearing it.) Maybe it's because wait staff so often refer to me as "miss" or "ma'am". I really don't get that. Relatively masculine build, goatee, bald spot, hairy legs...and still they think I'm a woman. They always fall all over themselves apologizing, but the mistake is made...not infrequently.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
From a wife's point of view:

When my husband and I were dating we were still in high school, and I refered to him as a boy because that's what he was. After we got married I felt like I should think of him as a man, but it was difficult, so I called him a guy. Somewhere around the birth of our first child he became a "man" in my eyes, and it was obvious; something I couldn't dispute. I think the difference was that I didn't need him to take care of me, so I didn't feel like having a wife made him a man. Undertaking a family, however, seemed like an entirely different ball of wax.

That's just me, though, because many men don't have families until they're much older, but no one would doubt that they are men. Then, I've known some guys that didn't have families when they were forty, and they seemed like over-grown kids.

I think for me it's a combination of the way the male in question sees himself, because people pick up on your self-image, and the amount of responsibility he is willing to take on, or has demonstrated. A man might have no family, for example, but you have no doubt that if it were required of him, he would step up to the plate. But there might be a guy with a family that he doesn't really take care of or want, and he's still just a great big kid.

I use "family" because that was what "made the man" in my example, but there are things besides family that a man can undertake, so don't feel like you gotta rush out and get married to be manly.

Oh, and video games are way manly, but if it becomes ALL you do, then that's different.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
This is an interesting question. I remember on the night of Porter's and my first date (in the cemetery that we visited last night for fun and saudades) he told me how he didn't feel like he had really become a "man" yet. That he was great at being a "guy", but being a "man" was yet to come for him. He told me that he wanted to be a "man" for me. I remember not being exactly sure what he was talking about, but it sounded downright romantic to me.

I think he meant that he meant that truly being a "man" meant a certain level of maturity and resonsibility and that at that time he still felt more like a big kid out on his own than an adult.

<===Has Boston's "What Does it Take to Be a Man" going through her head

[ August 09, 2004, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
That's funny! I have "When I Grow Up To Be a Man" by the Beach Boys in mine.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I'm really more of a dude.
 

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Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
 
I have "I'll make a man out of you" from Mulan...

That song's surprisingly homoerotic... :/
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
I have wondered the same thing many times when I hit different landmarks in my life:

*Living on my own:
still felt a guy
*Getting married:
still felt like a guy
*Becoming a father:
still felt like a guy (but a scared one)
*Graduating:
still felt like a guy
*Buying a house:
starting to feel like a man
*Fixing up the house, working on the lawn, etc:
starting to feel like an old man
*Turning 30 and helping my son get ready to start school:
don't feel like a guy anymore. I guess I'm a man now.

YMMV

[ August 09, 2004, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Dude. Anything is homerotic (or sexual in some fasion) if you really want it to be.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
Dude... are you hitting on me??

*giggle*

 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Well, if you put the song on top of all the drag queen jokes, it's hard not to see it that way.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Can you hit on somebody by accident?

I don't think so.

So no.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
I have my own apartment and I still don't feel like a real adult.
Maybe it's because I've never been in a relationship.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
I know.
Just acknowledging your last statement as true.
Cheers!
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 
Tom calls everyone sir and madame, and it's really amusing to see the look of the pimply faced teen loading groceries into the car after being called sir. I wonder if he feels more like a man at that point?

[ August 09, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Christy ]
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 
I'm used to being addressed as "Mr. [my last name]" because I've had teachers that used that form of address for all their students. I've also been called 'sir' enough times to not really notice it anymore.

The other day, there was a young girl (probably about twelve or so) who called me 'mister', by itself. As in, "Here you go, mister." That was a little odd. Not in the sense of making me feel old, but in the sense of making me feel like I'd accidentally woken up in the Victorian era. I almost felt like I should have responded with, "Why thank you, you adorable little urchin." But I didn't.

At any rate, I suppose paying my own bills could constitute a rite of passage. I've never really thought of it as such, because our society doesn't treat it that way. But even so, sitting here in my apartment, looking around at all my stuff, knowing that none of this belongs to Mom and Dad . . . well, I still don't feel like a man. I feel like a teenager with his own place. Which is odd, since I haven't been a teenager since late last century.

As to the whole family thing . . . well, frankly, I'd love to have a family. I want a family of my own. As a teenager, my main goal in life was to become wealthy. But now I've set that aside in favor of getting a wife and raising children. Of course, that's much easier said than done, especially for a guy who hasn't even had a girlfriend in eight years. But getting a family of my own has become a fervent wish of mine. Maybe I've just read too much Orson Scott Card, but in the last few years, I've come to regard family as the most important thing there is. But that doesn't get me any closer to getting one. . . .

quote:

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My definition of a man, as opposed to a guy: someone who, through his labor and the donation of the fruits of his labor, contributes more to society than his existence.

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I like that. I'm not sure how to go about it, but I like it.
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
So, now that I'm a man, can I hit on Telperion?

It won't be by accident.

(Jeff - Ignore Noemon. He's been after This Sizzle for years. Calling me a man is simply a smoke screen for his rampant frustration. Sad, really.)
 

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Posted by Happy Camper (Member # 5076) on :
 
You and me both Verily. I'm 25 and I sure as heck don't feel like I'm a man, nor like I'm a boy, just some guy. I think these others are right, in that it has something to do with the responsibilities. Maybe it's the responsibility of a new person, that you are partly responsible for creating. Dunno.

Personally, I don't think I'm ever going think of myself as a man. I'll always be a guy.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Maybe it's the responsibility of a new person, that you are partly responsible for creating."

Nope. I've felt like a "man" for at least seven years, and I only became a dad last month.
 

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Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
 
I'm 28, and I'm still a guy.
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Feh.

I'm a schmuck and happy with it.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
 
I also like what Tom had to say about being a man. Having not ever been a man myself, I can only say what I think might lead to being a man as opposed to a guy or a dude or a dud...

I think I am about to echo Tom, but bear with me.

You start being a man when you realize that there are people and things you have a daily responsibility for and then you handle that responsibility not only because it is your duty but because it is your inner most desire to do so. It is when you realize that life is more than just finding satisfaction in yourself.

Women search for their womanhood too, so this isn't a "man thing." I am 37. The funny thing for me is that I see myself as a woman,trapped in a preteen's body with a spirit that is both a child and an old, cynical lady. haha I wonder what that says about me?

I think the fact that you are asking the question indicates that you are closer to manhood than you think.

[ August 09, 2004, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Jess N ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I felt weird at my wedding, and I'm 34...well, 33 on my wedding day.

I don't have any kids, but being married, or rather being ready to marry, has made me feel more like a man than anything else.

I was in the Army for 3 years, and an EMT, and some of the stuff I did there made me fell good about myself and the job I did, but I never felt like a man...not for long periods of time, anyway. Here and there I did, after we saved someone, or the time I got to deliver a baby.....but not day to day.

Weird, huh?

Kwea
 

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Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
 
Not weird...human...
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
I wonder if the whole thing is about feeling "mature," which some people think means being serious. Maybe people do not feel manly because they don't feel serious, since they are still childlike in their thoughts, and can still play and have fun.

I have not struggled with becoming a man, being a woman and all, but I wonder when I will feel like I am "mature."

[ August 09, 2004, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
 

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Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
 
I have grey hair now and I still don't really feel mature. When I think of the way my mom was at my age, and then think of how I act I see a lot of difference. Then I wonder if that's bad or good.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
My wife is very silly, and she attributes it to promising Wendy (at WDW) to "never grow up".....

I don't think that you have to give up the things you love to be mature; and if you do, I hope I never feel that way!

When the preist read had one of the bible passages read, my wife and I looked at ourselves and laughed a little bit....you know, the passages about becoming a man, and putting away childish things.

I love that reading, but wished that "put away childish" stuff could have been left out.....

I asked the preist about that, but for some reason he was offended...

Kwea

[ August 09, 2004, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
 
The scripture says "childish" not "child-like" and there is a difference. Ray Bradbury has always said that the way he writes is to look at the world in a "child-like" manner--the world is a fresh, new, amazing bit of wonder. I think being "childish" means more that we act selfish, demand things be our way, aren't willing to give or sacrifice.

You make an interesting reference to Peter Pan, and I think it can illustrate the difference I'm talking about very well.

Peter flatly refuses to grow up. He lures Wendy into Neverland with the promise of adventure only to dump a bunch of little boys in her lap to take care of while he goes off with his pals to play pirates. When she gets tired and complains, he doesn't care. When she almost gets killed for him he's upset (probably only because he's lost his nanny). Peter is childish.

Wendy rises to the occasion after being lured to Neverland. She takes the boys under her wings and makes sure they have what they need. She loves and cares for Peter, even when he's a real jerk and she has to deal with Tinkerbell's jealousy. In spite of all the bad things that happen in Neverland, she never stops believing in the good part of it or Peter. Even when she leaves Neverland, she thinks fondly of it and still loves the wonder of it all. Wendy is child-like.

Your wife and I have a streak of silliness and I think it's easy to forget that silliness comes from being child-like. As much as I get tangled in who I really am, if I go back to knowing I'm child-like, then I'm ok. Even the scripture calls us to be child-like in our faith.

It's not so much not wanting to grow up as it is not wanting to forget to be amazed at what we experience as human beings.

Three cheers for the silly people of the world!
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Jess,
Nicely said.
One of the reasons I love teaching is that it keeps me in touch with kids, and with the kid in myself. My own kids keep me in touch with kids, too, obviously, but it is fun to have a job where I get to make stuff up and play games. It is easy to make learning fun when you like having fun yourself.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
While I'm a female, I've always felt old. Maybe it's because I've always had to be responsible and I never thought my parents would be there to bail me out if I needed it, though they probably would be.

I don't know that I've ever been carefree either. Even in my play with other children I was always anticipating disaster or planning out something. Doesn't mean I'm not spontaneous, just my thought processes even in the moment of spontenaity are always anticipating whatever is happening next.

But I'd never call myself a "woman" either. At work I'm definitely the "kid" even if I do tend to run the meetings because all the old guys are bickering like children and reliving what happened at the company 20 years ago and SOMEONE has to keep them focused. I guess I would call myself an "adult" but I've always been one. With my personality I'm much better at being an adult than I ever was at being child.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
*applaudes Jess*
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
BOSTON LYRICS

To Be A Man

(Scholz)

What does it take to be a man?
What does it take to see
It's all heart and soul
A gentle hand?
So easy to want and so hard to give
How can you be a man
'Till you see beyond the life you live?
Oh, what does it take to be a man?

We can be blind, but a man tries to see
It takes tenderness
For a man to be what he can be
And what does it mean
If you're weak or strong?
A gentle feelin'
can make it right or make it wrong
What does it take to be a man?

The will to give and not receive
The strength to say what you believe
The heart to feel what others feel inside
To see what they can see

A man is somethin' that's real
It's not what you are
It's what you can feel
It can't be too late
To look through the hate and see
I know that's what a man can be

For you, Verily.

Not the most profound writing ever, but I appreciate what they were trying to say. Oh, and it sounds way cool to the music.

[ August 10, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by enjeeo (Member # 2336) on :
 

quote:

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Kill a boar with a spear?

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hehehe

You are already a man. You just say 'guy' because 'man' sounds like someone as old as your dad. The truth is that all you have to do to feel like a man is use the word more often in relation to yourself until you wiggle in and get comfy with it.

Of course having said that, I still hestitate over the word 'man' when describing someone I might want to date, and I'm in my 30s. Men seem too old to date somehow, so I always end up, after a split second pause, saying 'guy' instead. If I'm still dating 'guys' doesn't that mean I'm still a 'girl'?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Jess, that is why we found it so funny at our wedding. We both knew that she wasn't going to go throw out all her Disney stuff, adn i wasn't going to stop reading fantasy novels. As a matter of fact, on our honeymoon we hit 4 different book stores and I bought a ton of them from all over the East Coast....and she bought a ton of cheesy romances...

It can get old sometimes, but her attitude towads life is something I have needed for my whole life and never knew it.

I love dogs...to the point of making myself a complete idiot (OK, MORE of an idiot) over any dog that walks by me. I will stop and play with any dog around, even if I am in a suit, as long as the owner says it's OK to do so.

They make me happy, and I even go out of my way to walk past any dogs I see outside, just so I can pet them for a second.

I hope I will never lose the feeling they give me even if I grow to be 100 years old, no matter how silly I look with a huge grin on my face.

Dogs and Babies.....I always get a smile from playing with them...although I prefer dogs...

Dogs don't need spending money, or College Funds....

Kwea

[ August 11, 2004, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
 
Very interesting and amusing thread.

I feel like a woman - I'm 22, getting married and buying a house. But I've felt like a woman since I guess I was 17 or 18 or so - mostly because the only alternative in my mind is 'girl' which just brings to mind bobby socks and mary janes.

I am, however, still child-like. Nothin' wrong with that.
 

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Posted by fallow (Member # 6268) on :
 
A man, or The Man? Was that the question?

fallow
 

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Posted by SoberTillNoon (Member # 6170) on :
 
Well, around 12 a thing called puberty sets in. Some changes take place, you kill a man, and you grow hair where there was none before. You are then a man.
 

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Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
 

quote:

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Well, around 12 a thing called puberty sets in. Some changes take place, you kill a man, and you grow hair where there was none before. You are then a man.

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quote:

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BTW, I get really ticked when I am not refered to as Mrs. by people who know am married. The people at Safeway, for example. They know my name, my husband's name, and some of them know my kids names. They know we're married, yet insist on calling me Miss Fanta when I'm in the store. That makes me so angry! I work way too hard and have way too many battle scars to be a Miss.

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quote:

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I think a good rite of passage would be to memorize all of Caddyshack.

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