...listen to the following two songs. Note the words.
Stan by Eminem, feat. Dido. Lose Yourself by Eminem.
Both are incredibly strong and fine examples of what good rap is. Those who say rap ain't music should listen to those two.
The first is the very sad story of a fan named Stan who becomes obsessed with Eminem. Dido does the chorus.
The second is...about motivation. Hard to explain in words, and I don't feel like taking the time to formulate it correctly. Just listen.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Lose yourself is the one about the fellow trying to make his big break? I don't even like Eminem, but I do like that song.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Yep.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Syn:
I'm curious. What color is that song? When you hear a song, do you just feel a color or do you see it too? Does the color change during a song?
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yeah, I've heard that song. It's pretty good.
I still don't like rap, though.
edit: I'm talking about Lose Yourself.
[ August 18, 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
I think rap is an *insanely* underutilized art form. The beats and time signatures can be incredibly complex and interesting, and there is a great potential for wonderful beat poetry in the form, but the subjects most rap artists I've heard seem to be drawn to (cheap sex, money, repeating their name in the chorus, etc) are so mind-numbing to me that I can't listen to much without disgust. But hey, that might just be me.
/elitist soapbox
In any case, Phanto (or whoever), do you have any suggestions for good rap I can check out? I think both examples you used were pretty shwag.
[ August 18, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Zotto! ]
Posted by edgardu (Member # 242) on :
Isn't the chorus of Stan based on another song? I've heard a non rap song with the same chorus.
I agree that if you look beyond his bad public image, Eminem is a very talented artist. I also liked "Haile's song" and I thought the one where he dresses up as a superhero was hilarious.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Shwag, from what I know, means poor quality pot, so I'm not quite sure what you mean .
Stan does use the chorus from another song, which is cheap in a manner, but it's still quite good .
Posted by Speed 2: Cruise Control (Member # 6765) on :
I really like some hip hop. Mainly the ones that are done as progressions of old funk and soul music. I'm not a big fan of people shouting rhymes into a microphone with beat-box accompaniment. But if you've got a really good funk band or even a good DJ and some well-used samples it can be really brilliant.
A year or so ago I saw Nelly on SNL. I didn't notice too much about his rhymes, but he had the funkiest drummer, bass player and keyboard player this side of the P-Funk All Stars, and he really knew how to use them. It was insanely groovy. So I went out and bought Nellyville. You can't even hear them. It's just Nelly doing the same rhymes to some fairly cheesy synthesized accompaniment. I never listen to that album anymore. There are a couple good tracks, but on the whole it was so disappointing.
Check Your Head by The Beastie Boys and Doggystyle by Snoop Dogg, for example, are some of my favorite albums in my collection. The producers of those albums clearly had great respect for someone other than the person on the mic.
I've never heard Eminem, but I may eventually give him a chance. He was produced by Dr Dre, so it would likely be worth a shot.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Well, Eminem's Stan was the reason I almost didn't listen to any other Dido song. Fortunately, since then I've come around, even went to her concert. And she's gooood... And yeah, Stan's corus is actually from Dido's Thank you. I still can't quite listen to that song...
Definitely not a rap fan...
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I agree. While not all of Eminem's songs are worth a listen, he has the capability of writing very intriquing lryics (Lose Yourself more than Stan, in my opinion). 'Course, I'm a fan of rap that doesn't try to push a message, as well, like the Beastie Boys, Run-DMC (in the 80's), Will Smith (back when he was cool enough to call himself "Fresh Prince").
Another rap song that means stuff is "What It's Like" by Everlast (he has several good songs, but that's my favorite).
I also thought "I Can" by Nas had many things that needed to be said in it, but the overall quality of the song is highly debatable, as the chorus is annoying as all get out.
[ August 18, 2004, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by FoolishTook (Member # 5358) on :
Lose Yourself is an excellent song.
I don't like rap much as a whole, though. Perhaps if the artists did more than make sparkly, floor-shot, booty videos that are more angry-looking ego fluff than substance, I might be interested.
But so far, the only rap, semi-rap artists I can tolerate are Outkast and Eminem.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I don't mind either of those, though I don't listen to them anymore (I listened to them back when they were big). I don't mind Outkast, either, but I don't listen to them very often.
Really, when I want rap, I just fire up some Rage Against the Machine. Posted by just_me (Member # 3302) on :
edgardu
quote: Isn't the chorus of Stan based on another song? I've heard a non rap song with the same chorus.
Not based on another song.. it IS another song. It's the chorus from Dido's "Thank You".
I'm not a big Eminem fan, but I did like Stan and I thought it was a pretty cool combination with Dido on the chorus.
I think it helped launch her here in the US. A LOT more people knew of her from Stan than from her own stuff.
[ August 18, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: just_me ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I don't believe that rap is inherently bad. As an art form, it is certainly an interesting style, and it's a lot more difficult to do well than people think. There are examples of well-done rap that is pleasing to listen to. I particularly like the Beastie Boys and the Fresh Prince, because they knew how to have a good time. I also like Lose Yourself a lot. I don't generally like Eminem, but I do acknowledge that he is one of the most talented poets working today. (Yes, I called him a poet. What else did you think song lyrics were but poetry?)
My objection to rap as a genre is that most rappers today take this fascinating art form and use it to tell horrific stories about how wonderful they are because they murder people and manage prostitutes. (The latter is, after all, what a "pimp" is.) It's too graphic and too egotistical for my tastes. I don't mind that it exists, but it would be nice to see more variation out there. I wish there were rappers today who used their art form just to have fun, like they did in the beginning. And a self-deprecating rap song now and then would be quite interesting.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Well put.
I agree that a lot of modern rap is junk; that's true for every genre, though.
There are some good songs, but still have I yet to see a band that pumps out tons of stuff I like. Sooner or later, one will come.
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
My brother made me a mix CD of good hip-hop once. When I get home I'll post the track list. I don't like a lot of modern hip-hop or rap because of the "bling-bling" mentality that seems to dominate the genre, but the tracks on this CD are really good and mostly avoid what I don't like about hip-hop.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I hate rap... But, stereotypically I should like it. It's just... Not melodic enough. I like singing better than talking and rap has too much talking in it.
Lose yourself has shades of reds in it. My colour synesthesia coresponds to the key of each song. Like songs in D have shades of red in it, songs in C are an off white, ect.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Verily, yep.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
The first disc of the Roots' live album is quite good.
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
There is a lot of modern hip-hop available that doesn't have the "bling-bling" mentality to it. Most of it isn't very commercialized, but it's good nonetheless. I myself like fluffy commercial hip-hop along with the more obscure stuff. Good underground hip-hop (but not so super underground that you wouldn't be able to find them at your local music store) that I currently have on my ipod is:
*Blackalicious *Heiroglyphics *Slum Village *Mobb Deep *The Roots *Talib Kweli *Stuff my sister makes which we will be made available to the world soon.
As for more commercialized hip-hop that isn't so yo, I bust a cap in yo buttocks-like, there is:
*Dialeted Peoples *Outkast *Beastie Boys *Black-Eyed Peas
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I don't like rap, actually most of the time I can't stand it. But I like some of Eminem's stuff.
I like "Stan" because it has Dido in it. "Lose Yourself" is good, no excuses necessary. "My Band" is a fun song. "Check it out" by the Beastie Boys is good, but I don't really care for their other stuff.
Black-Eyed Peas is awesome! I love them! Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
By the way, since we're on the subject of rap and there seems to be a few Beastie Boys fans, has anybody else bought To The 5 Boroughs? And if so, what do you all think of "An Open Letter to NYC"? It's one of my favorite Beastie songs. The best on the CD, no doubt about it.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Sandy's as right as she is bootilicious -- there's a lot of good rap around. I'm one of the few that hate Outkast's latest, if only because that "Hey Ya" crap and their performances of it with neon green suits and hoes are just a white supremacist's wet dream, but their early stuff's amazing. "Rosa Parks" is still one of my rap top five.
Some examples of white-friendly rap are Eminem or the Office Space soundtrack -- it's what got me into the genre. And Eminem's latest, The Eminem Show, is easily the best rap album I've ever heard. While I'll still pick grunge over rap any day, rap's a solid listen -- and, yeah, it's the only thing I can work out to. But really, it's a sadly underappreciated and underachieving genre. Maybe when it becomes unpopular, crap like Nelly and drugged-out losers like Snoop will get the hell out and some real artists will fill the void.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Oh, and for the religious crowd, you might want to check out Kanye West. "Jesus Walks" is a wildly popular Christian song, and if you don't mind the chorus ("God, show me the way because the Devil's trying to break me down...And I don't think there's nothing I can do now to right my wrongs...I want to talk to God but I'm afraid cuz we ain't spoke in so long"), it's a damn good song with some real issues, even if you disagree with his religious conviction -- as one example, why is it songs about murder and rape get played while mentioning religion gets you tossed off the airwaves?
Anyway. If there's any song that can get Mormons into rap, it's that one.
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
NdRa: you left off Mos Def and Jurassic 5.
Also, if you like Talib Kweli, many MCs are following his wake from the East Coast like Mike Ladd and Buck 65 and M1. I'll post some lyrics after I type them (don't seem to be on the web).
[ August 18, 2004, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Richard Berg ]
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
Doh, I did leave out Mos Def and Jurrasic 5 didn't I. I've never heard of Mike Ladd and Buck 65 though.
Posted by NdRa (Member # 2295) on :
As for local Los Angeles rap artists, check out my buddies Eric and Steve Sloan.
They have actually started getting some attention and have Babu and Evidence from dialated peoples on a few of their tracks. I am actually sitting at the desk which Steve often DJ's off of which makes me feel spectacular jiggy with it.
<hot damn, ubb sucks>
[ August 18, 2004, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: NdRa ]
Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
Here's the track list from the CD my brother gave me:
"Fallin' Up" - Black-Eyed Peas
"Concrete Schoolyard" - Jurassic 5
"What They Do" - The Roots
"Ms. Fat Booty" - Mos Def
"Ya Mama" - The Pharcyde
"Moment of Truth" - Gang Starr
"The Influence" - Jurassic 5
"Love Won't Wait" - Black-Eyed Peas
"Deception" - Blackalicious
"Dynamite!" - The Roots
"The Guidelines" - Aceyalone
"W.O.E. Is Me" - Jurassic 5
"Ambiguous Figures" - Styles of Beyond
"Excursions" - A Tribe Called Quest
"Passin' Me By" - The Pharcyde
"Quality Control" - Jurassic 5
"You Got Me" - The Roots
"Alphabet Aerobics" - Blackalicious
This CD was my first introduction to most of these bands and I really like it. The only album I've bought thus far, though, was Elephunk, by the Black-Eyed Peas and I don't like it nearly as much as their older, more laid-back stuff. Jurassic 5 is great, as is the stuff that Chali and Cut Chemist did with Ozomatli.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Poor...quality...pot? *blink*
Heh, it means the equivalent of "cool" where I'm from, Phanto.
I'll be checking out some of the suggestions in this thread, guys, thanks.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I kind of like Outkast. I haven't bought any of their albums yet, but what little I've heard from them seem interesting. They're not your average run-of-the-mill rap act, that's for sure. I was hooked the moment I first heard Rosa Parks. I couldn't believe a rap group was actually using acoustic guitar and harmonica. That's what first got me interested.
The Black-Eyed Peas I don't know about yet. I've only heard one of their songs, and, catchy as it is, I'd need to hear more before I could decide.
quote:I like "Stan" because it has Dido in it.
Interestingly, the first I ever heard of Dido was that song. I remember thinking what a beautiful voice the woman doing the chorus had, and thinking what a shame it was that it was in an Eminem song. Then I found out she had her own album out, and, miracle of miracles!, it had that very portion as the first verse of one of the songs. So I bought her album, happy that I could listen to that beautiful verse whenever I wanted without having to pay money to support Eminem's career.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Well, Zotto!, if you liked those, then I'd recommend you:
a) "Big Poppa" by Notorious BIG. This one is slow, enjoyable and lighter fare. In terms of content, it isn't fantastic -- but whatever. b) Hypntoize by Notorious BIG. Same as above. c) Insane in the Membrane - Cypress Hill. This is ol' school. Not much of that prostitute/slut theme here! Very funky. d) Comme Dans un Film - Mc Solaar. This is in French, but that shouldn't stop you from enjoying the beat. Content is actually VERY meak compared to American rap. e) La Vie est belle - Same. Another good piece. Very catchy chorus. f) My Band - D12. A harder song than all the others already listed. Very mocking + joking tone. The entire song is based on poking fun at complaints that Eminem dominates the band D12. g) The Real Slim Shady - Eminem. Another mocking song. Disses some truly atrocious singers such as Britney. Swearword light; the few "****s" are much stronger than normal. h) Hey Ya - Outkast. Funky! Not a single swearword that I noticed. Something you can actually listen to in front of kids - rare in rap. i) Roses - Outkast. One part in here is deliciously vicious: "I hope she's speeding on the way to the club [...] and crash, crash, crash(!) into a ditch." But they quickly add a "just kidding" to make it all better . j) Don't Tell Me - Avril Lavigne. Modern rap. Listen to it before goingto sleep. Deep, touching.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Jeremy! You shouldn't be doing that.
Mmm... Jurassic 5. I greatly recommend Quality Control.
[ August 19, 2004, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan ]
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Jeremy?
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Jeremy = Zotto!
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Z, listen to "Clint Eastwood" by Gorillaz. It's creepy.
And "Me, Myself, and I" by De La Soul, 'cause that's just cool.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Ooo... "Clint Eastwood" is such a good song. *listens to it*
Goat, why aren't you on AIM?
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Ooh, Gorillaz. Very nice choice. I also recommend "Rock the House". Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Ooh, spooky. I must have been in the middle of getting on AIM when you posted that, rrr. I bet it's a conspiracy.
Also, if you're a fan of Outkast at all, you have to listen to "B.O.B." (bombs over baghdad). It showcases both of their talent like none of their other songs. And it's tough as nails to sing. Since it came out, I haven't seen a single person that can sing every word and at the same pace as they do.
[ August 19, 2004, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Richard Berg (Member # 133) on :
Dave Skogen is as white as they come in suburban Wisconsin, so it should tell you something that outside the world of image-driven Majesticon "musicians," guys like him have things like this to say:
quote: Bless tracks like Carl Lewis, that's not why I do this -- just one of the newest breed of inspired mcs, what transpired when these eyes saw the future of a nation where the student teacher bond is brought to you by playstation; my failed education was predicated on racial hatred, now transcend like faith while history books don't really say it. Spitting space is sacred so I introspect to spray it, now you witnessing me praying so don't question this; embrace it. Let's face it, all we're ever graced with is the present -- people living, scraping resin, try to talk to me about heaven. Yapping about fire don't make up for skills lacking, cats are still slacking, even after karma smacked em. The question isn't if so and so got soul, cause that's some wack cosmos, a cultural black hole. But light shines, whether you see through faith or Carl Sagan's eyes, it's past time we woke up from this complacent paradise.
Not exactly an honorific cover of Gangsta's Paradise, even if the liner notes express admiration for Stevie Wonder's pre-Coolio original. (Punctuation is my own interpretation; verse would fit his rhyme/delivery style even less accurately.) Mike Ladd, the MC featured on the next track from this CD, is much more "poetic" -- I won't try to duplicate it in writing, so here's an mp3 (6MB, 7:21, sorry about the beginning getting cut off but it's late and I'm not reuploading it).
If you want a more widely available artist that doesn't suck, Lauryn Hill's "Miseducation" is actually pretty good.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
I actually have that Gorillaz album. Purty good stuff. Posted by Javert (Member # 3076) on :
quote: Another rap song that means stuff is "What It's Like" by Everlast (he has several good songs, but that's my favorite).
Goat, I agree that this is a great song. But does it really count as rap? Yes, Everlast is technically a rap artist, but he definitely sings "What It's Like".
Unless the definition of rap has been changed on me, of course. Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
I believe its been defined as "folk rap" or "rock rap", the way "One Week" by Barenaked Ladies was "pop rap", "Informer" by Snow was "reggae rap", and so forth. And for what its worth, the Black Eyed Peas and Outkast both have several songs in which the rapping part is sung (even if you exclude everything off "The Love Below").
I usually call something rap if it has a definite beat, a firm rhyming pattern, and a strict syllabical pattern. That song fits all of those perfectly.
Also, I'm curious: what's your definition of "singing"? If its adjusting your voice to fit the music you're "singing" with, or making a musical sound with your voice, then "Lose Yourself" definitely has some singing in it, but that's undoubtedly a rap song.
[ August 19, 2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Lose Yourself came out while I was driving the flower van and had to rely on popular radio for my entertainment. I really loved the music and secretly enjoyed it every time it came on, but Eminem is such a repugnant person who makes a lot of money by putting absolutely obscene things on the radio that I didn't want to support him, no matter how groovy a couple of his tracks may be.
So, I was secretly overjoyed when Weird Al parodied the song in Couch Potato. Really, really, funny.
I'm not a rap hater in general, just 90% of the time. I actually wrote a 20 page term paper on French rap and positive social commentary.
For anyone who's interested in hearing some good French rap, I suggest Zebda, IAM (their more recent stuff) and MC Solaar (as cliche as his stuff may be, it's really very smart and quite palatable to the American ear).
The good French rappers took their influence from more socially conscious American artists like Wu-Tang Clan, who I must admit I appreciate. Also, Black Eyed Peas are a new favorite of mine.
My basic criteria for good rap is whether they're making a valid statement to encourage social change as opposed to being misogynistic, sexually explicit, self-aggrandizing, violent or obscene. Unfortunately, the more popular stuff seems to be all of those things.
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
By the way, Goat, Barenaked Ladies (in the early days before Stunt) used to bill themselves as "acoustic rap."
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)