Who said it, Neville Chamberlain or Kerry/Edwards?
War today ... is a different thing not only in degree, but in kind, from what it used to be.
We have to find ways… to create some level of trust so that we can move toward peace.
We should negotiate with the [enemy state].
Everyone knows that [British/American] forces are not going to be used for aggression.
We can help [enemy state's] economy by getting other countries to forgive their enormous debt...
...however much we may sympathize with a small nation confronted by a big and powerful neighbor, we cannot in all circumstances undertake to involve [England/America] in war...
If we have to fight, it must be on larger issues than that. ... War is a fearful thing.
... before you go to war, it ought to really be the last resort and you should exhaust your diplomatic remedies...
I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity...
War today ... is a different thing not only in degree, but in kind, from what it used to be
In war, whichever side may call itself the victor, there are no winners, but all are losers.
War solves nothing.
We should seek by all means in our power to avoid war, by analyzing possible causes, by trying to remove them, by discussion in a spirit of collaboration and good will.
It has always seemed to me that in dealing with foreign countries we do not give ourselves a chance of success unless we try to understand their mentality.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
*flees from the Wrath To Come*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
*declines to even post in thread*
*oops*
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
*takes out his ten-foot pole* *decides he still doesn't want to touch it*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Just a little background.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Implicitly comparing Kerry to Neville Chamberlain is certainly no worse than calling Kerry a war criminal.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
If I had time, I would so totally just go and bump all the fluffiest threads on the forum.
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
*could say alot about both Chamberlain and Kerry, but refrains from commenting for fear of being associated with this thread*
*flees*
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
To be fair, comparing somebody to Chamberlain, a misguided man, is hardly the same as comparing somebody to Hitler, a decidedly evil man.
*remembers he isn't going to post in this thread*
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
Yeah, and Nevi isn't Hitler. Fine, fine, oh master cartographer of how far we can push things.
I'm going to guess that Chamberlain said all of them. That's just because I have no idea who "Kerry Edwards" might be (kidding, I know what the / means).
I bet that Bush has said most of these at one time or another too, though. I'm telling you, the guy reads out loud (okay, he can read to himself, which just makes it more irritating).
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Bush may read out loud, but Kerry has no facial expressions. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Nice try Adam, but nope.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, the sad thing for me about the Hitler/Bush thread AND this thread is that the quotes attributed to the older pair of "statesmen" were so much more erudite.
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
Yeah, the age of live interviews has improved our political discourse so much, donchathink?
Frankly, I think Nevi and Kerry just don't inspire the same kind of interest as Hitler and...um, Bushler.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
they're quotations.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Since we last met, the House has suffered a very grievous loss in the death of one of its most distinguished Members, and of a statesman and public servant who, during the best part of three memorable years, was first Minister of the Crown.
The fierce and bitter controversies which hung around him in recent times were hushed by the news of his illness and are silenced by his death. In paying a tribute of respect and of regard to an eminent man who has been taken from us, no one is obliged to alter the opinions which he has formed or expressed upon issues which have become a part of history; but at the Lychgate we may all pass our own conduct and our own judgments under a searching review. It is not given to human beings, happily for them, for otherwise life would be intolerable, to foresee or to predict to any large extent the unfolding course of events. In one phase men seem to have been right, in another they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time has lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is a new proportion. There is another scale of values. History with its flickering lamp stumbles along the trail of the past, trying to reconstruct its scenes, to revive its echoes, and kindle with pale gleams the passion of former days. What is the worth of all this? The only guide to a man is his conscience; the only shield to his memory is the rectitude and sincerity of his actions. It is very imprudent to walk through life without this shield, because we are so often mocked by the failure of our hopes and the upsetting of our calculations; but with this shield, however the fates may play, we march always in the ranks of honour.
It fell to Neville Chamberlain in one of the supreme crises of the world to be contradicted by events, to be disappointed in his hopes, and to be deceived and cheated by a wicked man. But what were these hopes in which he was disappointed? What were these wishes in which he was frustrated? What was that faith that was abused? They were surely among the most noble and benevolent instincts of the human heart-the love of peace, the toil for peace, the strife for peace, the pursuit of peace, even at great peril, and certainly to the utter disdain of popularity or clamour. Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.
But it is also a help to our country and to our whole Empire, and to our decent faithful way of living that, however long the struggle may last, or however dark may be the clouds which overhang our path, no future generation of English-speaking folks-for that is the tribunal to which we appeal-will doubt that, even at a great cost to ourselves in technical preparation, we were guiltless of the bloodshed, terror and misery which have engulfed so many lands and peoples, and yet seek new victims still. Herr Hitler protests with frantic words and gestures that he has only desired peace. What do these ravings and outpourings count before the silence of Neville Chamberlain's tomb? Long, hard, and hazardous years lie before us, but at least we entered upon them united and with clean hearts.
I do not propose to give an appreciation of Neville Chamberlain's life and character, but there were certain qualities always admired in these Islands which he possessed in an altogether exceptional degree. He had a physical and moral toughness of fibre which enabled him all through his varied career to endure misfortune and disappointment without being unduly discouraged or wearied. He had a precision of mind and an aptitude for business which raised him far above the ordinary levels of our generation. He had a firmness of spirit which was not often elated by success, seldom downcast by failure, and never swayed by panic. when, contrary to all his hopes, beliefs and exertions, the war came upon him, and when, as he himself said, all that he had worked for was shattered, there was no man more resolved to pursue the unsought quarrel to the death. The same qualities which made him one of the last to enter the war, made him one of the last who would quit it before the full victory of a righteous cause was won.
I had the singular experience of passing in a day from being one of his most prominent opponents and critics to being one of his principal lieutenants, and on another day of passing from serving under him to become the head of a Government of which, with perfect loyalty, he was content to be a member. Such relationships are unusual in our public life. I have before told the House how on the morrow of the Debate which in the early days of May challenged his position, he declared to me and a few other friends that only a National Government could face the storm about to break upon us, and that if he were an obstacle to the formation of such a Government, he would instantly retire. Thereafter, he acted with that singleness of purpose and simplicity of conduct which at all times, and especially in great times, ought to be the ideal of us all.
When he returned to duty a few weeks after a most severe operation, the bombardment of London and of the seat of Government had begun. I was a witness during that fortnight of his fortitude under the most grievous and painful bodily afflictions, and I can testify that, although physically only the wreck of a man, his nerve was unshaken and his remarkable mental faculties unimpaired.
After he left the Government he refused all honours. He would die like his father, plain Mr. Chamberlain. I sought permission of the King, however, to have him supplied with the Cabinet papers, and until a few days of his death he followed our affairs with keenness, interest and tenacity. He met the approach of death with a steady eye. If he grieved at all, it was that he could not be a spectator of our victory; but I think he died with the comfort of knowing that his country had, at least, turned the corner.
At this time our thoughts must pass to the gracious and charming lady who shared his days of triumph and adversity with a courage and quality the equal of his own. He was, like his father and his brother Austen before him, a famous Member of the House of Commons, and we here assembled this morning, Members of all parties, without a single exception, feel that we do ourselves and our country honour in saluting the memory of one whom Disraeli would have called an "English worthy."
Not exactly specifically OT, but I just really like the bolded parts of the eulogy.
They don't make politicians like they used to. Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:one phase men seem to have been right, in another they seem to have been wrong. Then again, a few years later, when the perspective of time has lengthened, all stands in a different setting. There is a new proportion.
Are you sure John Kerry didn't say this?
I don't know who this Churchill guy is, but he sure sounds like a flip flopper.
[ September 08, 2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Beren One Hand ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Beren, look at the back of my hand...
*SMACK*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Just for that, I'm not releasing "Who said it - round 3: Homosexual References in Lord of the Rings."
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You can't watch TRotK without wondering when Sam and Frodo are going to just get 'it' out of their system....
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
See, this is the real problem with homosexuals. They think that if one guy loves another guy deeply and tenderly....
I mean, I don't love guys deeply and tenderly, but I respect guys that do, y'know? That sort of thing makes me feel like there should be more to life than death. Which is a pretty crazy place for me, but I don't mind.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Because it's the homosexuals that make people jump to that conclusion?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
quote:I mean, I don't love guys deeply and tenderly
Again....
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Prefer it a bit rough, do you?
[ September 08, 2004, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
WS does seem like the shallow wam-bam-thank you ma'am type. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Nixon ended Vietnam. Can you find me quotes that seriously make Kerry look as good as Nixon?
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
I rest my case.
But what's this about Nixon?
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
I dunno Stormy. I see him as a deep conversationalist with penetrating insights.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
*Is aghast at the implications*
But, Beren! (sniff) I thought you were all mine and now I find out you like . . . MEN!!!!!!!
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
You're just saying that because I make a statement and then everyone else provides proof that I'm right. I'm pretty sure that you haven't actually seen my conversational style.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Shouldn't this be round three?
Posted by WraithSword (Member # 6829) on :
Oops, got to make an emergency post here.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Nixon also interfered with vietnamese peace talks in order to prolong the end of the war in vietnam in order to get elected.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Because the North Vietnamese were just fine with the shape of the table while Nixon was the one who had to have it his way. Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
We should all just vote based on who we think is cuter, Kerry or Bush. Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Then I'm writing in Brad Pitt.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Hugh Jackman, please. Please.
No, really, please. It would make the world better, I promise.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Hmm. That is a toughie. Hugh Jackman is really, really good looking.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
quote: See, this is the real problem with homosexuals. They think that if one guy loves another guy deeply and tenderly....
I think you have misdirected your "problem". In my experience, it is largely straight men who look askance at two men expressing deep emotion or tenderness, regarless of their sexual orientation.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I think a more apt comparison would be between Lincoln and Bush and Kerry.
Whichever side (Bush or Kerry) that can marshall the most quotations of their guy sounding like Lincoln, we'll elect him!
How's that?
I figure Bush has the edge on invoking Providence or God. I'm betting Kerry has the edge on being less bellicose.
Posted by KarlEd (Member # 571) on :
That's a brilliant idea Bob. We may not get a better government out of that system, but we'd sure get a more literate one.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Lincoln less bellicose? This should be very interesting. Fortunately for Kerry, there was a time when he recognized the war was necessary.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
My reading of Lincoln is that he was very reluctant to go to war, but very determined to do the right thing with respect to certain social ills that he saw in his country.
I believe that Bush has followed the successful Reagan pattern of being totally closed to any criticism of America. Something that Lincoln wasn't really able to do -- he had to address slavery somehow and that implied criticism of a good portion of the country.
Anyway, I think the quotes regarding the advisability of war would probably sound less Bush like and more Kerry like. I might be wrong. I leave the task to their supporters to complete.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- See, this is the real problem with homosexuals. They think that if one guy loves another guy deeply and tenderly....
I think you have misdirected your "problem". In my experience, it is largely straight men who look askance at two men expressing deep emotion or tenderness, regarless of their sexual orientation.
Yea but that would never happen if it weren't for the existance of homosexuality.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
Shan, the first time I met you on Hatrack, I thought you were a guy.
(In my defense, you were posting on the other forum, where a lot of people named themselves after Ender's Game characters.)
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Lincoln was trying to aviod war, while he realized that it couldn't be avioded. Kerry sounds like that, but his actions suggest otherwise. What if we used quotes of founding fathers urging war with England, then they would sound like Bush, urging for a war that we would rather not engage in, but which necessity had already been determined for. The difference being that Bush and the founding fathers actually acted on what they said.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
My personal favorite has always been the second inaugural:
quote: Fellow-Countrymen:
AT this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured. 1 On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came. 2 One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it. Neither party expected for the war the magnitude or the duration which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with or even before the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible and pray to the same God, and each invokes His aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered. That of neither has been answered fully. The Almighty has His own purposes. "Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh." If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether." 3 With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
quote:Whichever side (Bush or Kerry) that can marshall the most quotations of their guy sounding like Lincoln, we'll elect him!
see? Bob can say it properly!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quote:Anyway, I think the quotes regarding the advisability of war would probably sound less Bush like and more Kerry like. I might be wrong. I leave the task to their supporters to complete.
And sometimes not.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
A guy?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
*Sighs*
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
true. but points for saying it properly at any point in time!
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