Elizabeth suggested a support group. I think this is an excellent idea.
My daughter is 10 (11 in February), but alternates between being a moody, rebellious 16-year-old, a tantrum-throwing 6-year-old, and a helpful, mature 16-year-old. Guessing which version will respond at any given time is an exercise in futility.
How about the other parents of pre-adolescents?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Rivka, since I am also teaching about fifty or so girls at this age, as well as parenting one, can we also include teachers of pre-teens who act like teenagers in our support group?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
O_O
You poor, poor thing! I'm not sure if the resources of this support group will be sufficient, but sure, we can include in-loco-parentis types. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hehe. You called Elizabeth loco. Hehe.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Can the support group suggest the best mood stabilizer I can take for this situation, or should I just stick to the Yellowtail Shiraz that is on sale this week?
Edit: Dag, here goes the ultimate hex: May you have quadruplet girls, and may they begin puberty at the same time your wife goes into menopause.
[ September 12, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
A nice bottle of wine sounds like an excellent choice. I found that a jaunt (one night last week) to a place near here that rents private jacuzzi suites by the hour was what I needed. (Truly tacky decor, but I didn't care much about that.)
I also find tapes from Love&Logic (specifically, Jim Fay) to be helpful.
[Edit: YIKES! Elizabeth, did he really deserve THAT?]
[ September 12, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hmm. You're hex will have to compete with my mom's hex about having kids just like me.
Dagonee
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*shakes head*
And you think these are incompatible why, exactly?
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Rivka, your daughter sounds very much like mine. Just turned 11 here and driving me completely batty. And just as I anticipate figuring her out at long last, the little sister will get HER turn! <shudder>
Goody
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Goody, No fear about learning from the older daughter. Your younger daughter will develop her own exasperating pre-teen mannerisms and stymie you all over again.
Riv, of course Daglet deserved it. Because, on the other hand, it would be awfully cute for him to have five little girls. I can hear him logically lecturing them when they are ten. They will disagree with him on something, and he will beat them down with lawyer words.
Or...will he?
It is sort of like the ultimate confrontation between super-heroes. Who will win, Logic Man, or Hormonal Preteen Almost-Woman?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I'll give you a scarier image - hormonal pre-teen women who grew up with Dag's lawyer-honed knack for arguing and returning fire with fire.
-Trevor
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*cough* four*cough*
And puh-lease, hormones beat out logic every time. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I don't think you give any kids of Dag's enough credit.
They may be motivated by hormones, but I have the sneaking suspicion they will beat him to death with his own logic.
-Trevor
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
And you say that, I suspect, because you haven't dealt with teens of the female persuasion lately.
I have. And I stand by my previous comment.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Heh, fair enough. The only pre-teen women I have to deal with are my nieces at irregular family gatherings, so I will concede to your superior knowledge.
-Trevor
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If everyone's done discussing my future children, however many there will be, I have something to say:
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Nonesense. I'm gonna be a great daddy!
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Please, everyone, keep your pre-teen daughters out of bikinis.
There were few more depressing episodes this summer as during the 8-10 year old weeks at camp when the girls were wearing bikinis.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Yeah, yeah - that doesn't change the hell you will go through with your teenagers.
-Trevor
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
pre-teen teens . . .
Nathan stymies me quite frequently. I like the idea of a support group, particularly if we get to debate the merits of hormones vs. logic. (giggle)
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Darn it all, Rivka! Now I either have to change quadruplets to quintuplets, or change four to five.
Dag, would you rather have four or five hormone-laden daughters in the future? It's your call.
Rivka, do you get the eye-roll, followed by the "I was NOT rolling my eyes,Mom!" followed by another eye-roll?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I'm pretty sure this is one of those things I'm supposed to discuss with Eve.
Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
You DO remember, don't you, Elizabeth, that the eye roll is merely designed to demonstrate to you exactly what they are not doing....?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Yes, Shan. And how about that little ticking/clucking sound they make?
OK, so I was the queen of the "eye-roll-harumph-ticking sound combo" as a teen and pre-teen. Should I not have some advantage by knowing the tactics of my adversary?
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Dagonee:
"Eve, there is something I would like to discuss. Elizabeth has decided that we should have either four or five girls, and that you should make sure you time their birth so that you are beginning menopause as they go into puberty. What do you think?"
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Suicide is against my religion, Liz.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Well said Dag.
-Trevor
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Ha ha.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Dags, what about assisted suicide?
And I really don't know why you think being a great dad (which I am sure you will be ) will exempt you from s directed your way. *pat pat* You'll learn.
Liz, I get the occasional eye-roll, but more often it is the long-suffering sigh (sometimes with an eye-roll). I am clearly a great trial to her. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I am an embarrassment as well, Rivka. Is there any way to write the way they say, "Mom?"
"Ma-a-om." Something like that.
[ September 12, 2004, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
MAH-aaahhhhhh-MEEEEEE!
The child is lucky. I have no plans to replicate most of the embarrassing things my mother did to ME.
Most. Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhherrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!! (usually as she's on the phone with a friend and I'm trying to get her to do some housework to earn her Operation Snowball camping trip in the spring)
I couldn't possibly have been this much of a trial to my mom... could I? LOL
Goody
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Snicker. It all depends on who you ask.
-Trevor
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
My daughter is just like I was at her age. She is perfectly behaved for others, and attitudinal at home.
She refuses to work for me(I pay 10 cents per matched pair of scoks, 1 dollar per bucket of rocks from the garden, and a quarter a page of my dag-blasted multiplication fact sheets) but sat out in the hot sun for four hours on Saturday doing a carwash, and wanted to go to people's houses and clean their bathrooms.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Elizabeth, I wish i would have gotten paid for grading homework, I graded my mom's spelling tests for three years, once a week. But it was fun.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, my mom never paid me for grading papers either!
. . . which is pretty much how it works now, too . . . *eyes pile of ungraded papers* Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
You know, I have seriously thought about having a correcting party.
Now come on, how nerdy is that?
[ September 13, 2004, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*laugh* About as nerdy as me thinking, "Gee, sounds like fun!" Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
ha ha! Let's do it! Our Teenage-acting Pre-teens can go and talk about our failings in the other room, and bond.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*snort* They so would.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Sooo.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Sooo, you East Coast, me West.
I'll wave as I fly over next week, though. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Wave your homework papers, and I will wave my Problems of the Week back at you.
Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
I have a 10 year old daughter that will be 11 in January and,just like you, rivka, she is making my head ache! She's always been ahead of schedule and preteen stuff is no exception. The thing that's really getting to me, though, isn't the rolling of the eyes or the sharp tongue, I'm used to that. What's really worrying me is that she's having these crying jags. She has told me that she gets really scary, destructive thoughts and then she gets scared and cries. I told her to write down these thoughts and that way she could contain them. Now she's writing me these notes filled with her thoughts and it's making me scared and crazy. I feel like it's the beginning of the hormonal shift, but I gotta tell ya--I'm more than a little unnerved. I thought I had this mom thing down better than I apparently do.
So far, I've been highly supportive of her, but she's exhausting me. HELP!
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Have you spoken to your doctor about this? Or the school adjustment counselor? Is there something she is not telling you about school?
[ September 13, 2004, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Elizabeth, I am going on Vacation. I will NOT be bringing papers with me. (I probably should, but I won't!)
Jess, I found that this book (in combination with its companion guided diary) was really useful in helping my daughter better understand the changes she is and will be going through. Sometimes the scary feelings come (at least partly) from scary changes.
If you are seriously concerned, perhaps a few sessions with a therapist who specializes in teens and preteens might help. It's a scary time -- she may need a bit of guidance from someone who isn't Mom. *hug* Good luck!
Posted by Jess N (Member # 6744) on :
Thanks for all the good suggestions. Elizabeth, I haven't talked to a doctor or counselor (yet). The only problem she's really having at school right now involves some classmates harrassing her about her reading choices. She reads fantasy and it's outside the realm of Tolkien (she's already gotten through the Trilogy). The little trolls are telling her that she's evil and that what she is reading is evil. I had to call one parent already and I've already assured her that if the other one's continue, I'll call more parents.
The only other thing that I can think of that is a factor is that her two best friends are at a different school this year. I think that sort of unmoored her a bit.
The reason I'm sure there's nothing else going on is because Gina is one of those kids that tells all. My son holds everything back, but not Gina. She is only reticent around adults she doesn't know too well. It takes her a while to warm up to strange adults. I would love for her to talk to another adult, but she most likely won't open up to them.
Rivka, I will check out the book you recommended. I'm ready to do anything to help her through this time. If it does mean therapy, I'll do it. I do worry that she'd just clam up.
Anyway, thanks! Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Sorry Jess - the only thing I can suggest is to help her find an outlet for her frustrations.
Which I suspect is where the frustration she's experiencing is coming from. It doesn't take much from a person's peer group to wind up and aggravate a young person who hasn't developed defense mechanisms and coping abilities.
You can tell her she's the odd fish in a small pond but there is such a larger world out there with people who actually have imaginations.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: She reads fantasy and it's outside the realm of Tolkien (she's already gotten through the Trilogy). The little trolls are telling her that she's evil and that what she is reading is evil
Or you could just introduce them to me and I could kindly and gently show them the error of their ways.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Jess, I teach fifth grade this year, and we are already having "issues." Most of the teachers just blow past them and send the kids to the counselor. I try like hack(this was a typo, but made me chuckle, as "like a hack" instead of "like heck" came to mind) to do at least a drive-by healing of rifts, and teach the kids how to work with each other. It is very hard, though.
A friend told me a great thing to say to my daughter, after my grandmother called her fat this summer. (GRRRR) She said, "Ask her what she would have wanted to happen in that situation." It sounds simple, but it made so much sense. (She is a therapisit) Even if her wish can't come true, she is getting it out there, and starting to find strategies.
[ September 14, 2004, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
There must be something in the milk... When I was 9, 10, or 11 I didn't have much of a desire to act like a teenager... I didn't even when I was 16. I tutured second graders and third graders at an elementary school once. All the girls would rant about having crushes on the boys... At that young age! What could be causing that?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
rivka -- been there, done that, don't want to do it again!
You have my sympathies. My daughter is now 15, of course, and I will take this age ANY DAY over the age you describe -- the terrible hormonal moodiness of that "just before you start your period" stage. (was that too graphic? Sorry -- that is just how it is!) They are beginning into the change of life, and girls at that age are horrible to deal with -- mood swings and crying for no reason, etc.
Hugs to all you going through this at this time..
FG
Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
Oh, oh, oh, can I join???
I have two daughters, ages 8 and 11. I'm at the point where I have to threaten the 11-year-old that if she doesn't go to church, she doesn't get the computer all week. She's uncooperative and usually ignores my requests/commands.
Then she'll do something like bring in all the groceries. I'm already confused.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As rivka has so gently reminded me, hormonal moodiness knows no logical boundaries.
The fact your daughter is trying to be helpful means she really does try, but she has no frame of reference to understand the emotional whirlwind she finds herself in.
Which means she's going to be tugged to and fro and not really understand why. This is also why "logical" approaches to handling a teen's moodiness has never seemed to work (at least, so I've heard).
-Trevor
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Does my daughter's age (13) keep me from this support group?? C'mon, she's dramatic and moody and flounces a LOT - I think I should qualify just on the basis of the flounces.
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Cay, I'm starting to do much of the same thing with Heather. She sooooo wants to go on the Operation Snowflake campout in the spring - but she can't manage to do her chores on a daily basis even with a dry-erase board that tells her exactly what needs to be done every day. She has 3 chores that need to be done daily (clear the kitchen table, wash dishes, and fold/put away laundry - there isn't always new clean laundry every day, she doesn't get penalized for that). If she manages to do all three (or two if applicable) items every day in a week, she earns her allowance for that week.
Since she seems to get sucked into watching TV instead of doing her chores, today when I left for work, I put the parental control lock on the television so NOBODY can watch till I get home... At least she usually gets her homework done before I get home, but she's still wasting an average of 2 hours an afternoon between her arrival home and mine in "I guess I forgot". Maybe the TV block will wake her up a bit.
And if we go a full month (well, okay, four weeks) without her managing to earn her allowance for a single lousy week, then she loses out on Snowflake. I've already told her that she can't be part of Panther Prints (school newspaper) because she can't fulfill her commitments at home. The only reason she still gets the chorus concerts throughout the year is that those are actually part of her grade (something I think is not entirely appropriate - the school requires a musical elective and then turns around and makes evening and weekend participation mandatory? What if I had no way to get her to and from school for these things - which was a reality for us a mere 3 months ago?)
The bad thing about the TV block is that Missy is also being restricted as a result of her sister's inability to do her work. Although Missy could probably stand to not have the TV on all the time too... maybe Daddy will actually participate in her life!
Goody
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: rivka -- been there, done that, don't want to do it again!
You have my sympathies. My daughter is now 15, of course, and I will take this age ANY DAY over the age you describe
*resists commenting about her sister's transition from angel to Teen From Hell at age 16*
Thanks, Farmgirl. I know they are years I would not want to relive, and my parents hadn't recently divorced when I was a pre-teen. So I do have a lot of sympathy for her . . . until she repeatedly defies simple and reasonable requests, with a mulish look on her face as she flounces off.
And then two hours later, she comes to give me unsolicited hugs and kisses, "because you're my favorite mommy." And these weren't an apology -- she had apologized (grudgingly ) long before.
OTOH, she is starting to be someone I can have intelligent conversations with. Discuss books with, play Apples to Apples with, laugh with about sophisticated/clever jokes . . .
*joins CaySedai in the confused corner*
Sharpie, we'll grandfather you in.
[ September 15, 2004, 01:01 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
I'm glad I wasn't made to go to church when I was 11. I probably would have made life more difficult for my mum than it was. I was very against being forced into religion in those days, still am.....
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"she is starting to be someone I can have intelligent conversations with"
So true. Also, I use her as a sounding block for school issues.
"So, where does your teacher have you hand in homework? How does she handle it when two girls are arguing over something small" etc.
Then, she says those things that kick my bee-hind, like when I say, "My class is so disorganized." And she answers, "Your class, or you?" And then I start thinking about that. Grrr.
[ September 15, 2004, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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