• she was talking about adultery http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=adultery which by any literal or traditional application of the word doesn't really apply, since neither of my friends are married to someone else. I know that's nit-picky, and I'm sure some of you here will disagree. But I'm right. Nyah,
• The second thing is that it is none of her damned business what any two people she hardly knows do or don't do behind closed doors. I do not know that my friends are playing footsie, though I have sort of assumed they have been, since I put 'em in a bedroom together when they came to visit. (Whoops! If I was wrong. ) But, is that really a topic for a child's birthday party? And what was I supposed to say? "They're Lutheran, so it's okay as long as they sacrifice goats" (That would probably work, as the woman in question tends to cast a jaundiced eye at non-Presbyterians.)

I was good. I didn't say anything involving the words bitter old clam . I didn't say anything at all. Now I sort of wonder if I should have stood up for my friends. What they do or don't do isn't any of my business and it certainly isn't hers. Was I being a good daughter-in-law, a bad friend, or both?
*grinds teeth*

To top it off, I think I'm angry that this woman is alive and well, while my mother (who always loved people first and worked very hard not to judge them) is rotting in the ground. And here I am, hiding at my computer so my son won't see his mother crying on his birthday, and somehow think it's his fault.

[/rant]

Thanks for letting me vent.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
I'm so sorry Olivia. People who get off on self righteously torching other people suck.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Drat the woman!

Even Paul said celibacy is not for everyone. Criminy sakes. She's upset about two adults possibly engaging in premarital sex, but not about her own capacity for unkind speculation and commentary. And assumption.

Oh well...I'm just going to rant with you.

Some things (most things of this nature) are between the individual and God. You have to make your own decisions. If she doesn't like his decisions, she shouldn't select him as her pastor. Of course, since he's not Presbyterian, she probably wouldn't listen to him anyway.

rant rant rant rant rant.

Sorry she spoiled your son's birthday for you.

don't give her that power over you!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
The technical term would be fornication.

And holy crap, Liam is FIVE!?!

Happy birthday to him

And hugs to his mom
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
You should have just said "Yeah, he doesn't like #9."

[ September 28, 2004, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by CaySedai (Member # 6459) on :
 
"Gee, isn't it too bad they don't stone people for that in this country?"

I tend toward the sarcastic. When I can think of a pertinent reply in time, that is. I usually think of it hours later.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I suppose you can point out to her that while she comes from a tradition, and perhaps a faith, where any sex outside marriage is against the commandments, there are other Christians and other faiths that believe that is acceptable. She may not be aware of that. She also may not like it. But that is their belief.

I am of the belief that in general someone who is a spiritual leader should hold themselves to higher standards than the norm so as to be an example. There are several verses in the New Testament that discuss the high standards that bishops of that time should hold themselves to. One of them was only having one wife (since at that time it was somewhat acceptable to have more than one.)

I guess while I can understand her disapproval of the situation, she could have handled it better. Sometimes people speak without thinking.
 

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Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
 
It's really not any of her business what they do... Not at all.
I hate that sort of judgementalness.
After all, it's one thing to have a certain "moral" view, but sometimes that just shatters a bit when it comes to real people and how complicated they are.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
funny. your mother in law seemed polite and kind enough on saturday...

and technically the Lutheran Church DOES frown upon premarital sex, but isn't that something between me and my church/God, not for somebody else outside of my realm of thinking to dictate as wrong? (and for the record of anybody reading this before they ask, i dont have "casual sex")

Ron's mom (based on what you said here) is a jackass...

boy, if this isn't an incriminating post, i don't know what is.

and happy b'day to that mofo Liam.

[ September 28, 2004, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

---

but isn't that something between me and my church/God, not for somebody else outside of my realm of thinking to dictate as wrong?

---

Normally yes, but (IMO) when you put yourself in a position to be an example to others, there is an added responsibility there. If the example is that of a Christian leader, then a close following of the commandments is pretty important. If your faith believes pre-marital sex is OK, then there is no conflict. Is it "do what I say not what I do"?
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
no, it is not.
 

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Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
 
Now, I wasn't there, but from what I can tell, people are being as judgmental toward the MIL in this thread as she was being toward others.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
There is no commandment barring pre-marital sex. Traditions are fine and dandy, but they are not the Commandments.

I would have launced into " Jude not, lest you be judged", and pointed out that even God waits until someone is dead before judging them...

Also, it isn't her faith, demonition, or congregation...so her views have no bearing.

Kwea
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
How's the phrase go? Let he who is without sin...

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's it.

I'm going out on a limb and say most people who join their faith's calling probably weren't saints or their religious equivelant.

I'm sorry Olive, you handled it much better than I would have - because the high note of my tirade would have been "you miserable bat" and ended with "get the hell out." Of course, she's not my mother-in-law, so I can rant a little more freely.

On the bright side, Happy Birthday to Liam.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

---

There is no commandment barring pre-marital sex.

---

There is in my faith.

I am often surprised how quick people are to judge people as judging others. Her question was valid. She could not wrap her brain around someone wanting to be a church leader when they are not following something she feels is a basic and important commandment. The fact that many do not see it as such is besides the point. She believes it is a commandment. Her view appears close-minded to the more "enlightened".
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Being snippy and catty at her grandson's birthday was not the appropiate time and place to point this out.

Whether she approves or not is entirely up to her and in the grand scheme of things, you can argue she's right.

But her choice in the timing and location to direct verbal barbs was wholly inappropriate.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
As I said, she could have handled it better.

Maybe in her mind her indirectness was her way of being tactful. (One person's tact is another person's rudeness.) I wasn't there. If I had a question about it, I would have been direct about what my question was, tried to phrase it politely, and perhaps waited for a better time than a boy's birthday celebration.

[ September 28, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Ben, she IS nice, mostly. And I'm sure she'd never scold anybody outside her family about such things to their face. I think it may have been thoughtless, or just aimed at pissing ME off.

Actually, I shouldn't have posted this here. I'm an idiot. If your feelings are hurt by this, it's MY fault, not hers. I'm sorry.

I think it may be simply because you're MY friends. I mean, she let her middle son's girlfriend stay with him in the basement of their house when she was visiting, because she was 'sure they wouldn't do anything.' Her middle son never gets spoken ill of, while the other two are constantly assumed to be up to no good. Thier friends and significant others are automatically called into question...

I really wanted to get along with her. I've really tried. Now I know I'll never be good enough. My friends, my parenting, my freakin' steak knives will never pass muster with her. *sigh*

I didn't mean to condemn her, I just needed to get my frustration off my chest.

I'll delete the thread in the morning. Good freakin' night.
 

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Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
 
my feelings aren't hurt. me in my morbid sense of humor, was actually relatively amused by this thread...

is that bad? no need to delete, unless you are more comfortable with deleting it. really...

on a lighter note. did your brother in law have a good time polka dancing? if i had to muster a guess, i would guess no...

[ September 28, 2004, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
And how was it any of her business what they did? It isn't her faith, even....so what was the "right" was to deal with it at all?

It was none of her business, point blank.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I am sorry, Olivetta, and I hope you are wrong about her. If she can't see what a nice person you are IRL, when we can rell from miles away on the internet....

Well, there may be no hope for her...but it isn't your fault.

Good luck.

Kwea
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Well, since Olive is going to delete this thread in the morning, I'll just call it here.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Kwea, I would have been curious, maybe a bit confused. It has to do with the background I come from. It was only here on Hatrack that I heard for the first time the reasoning that pre-marital sex is not necessarily "wrong" according to the Bible. I had honestly never heard someone say that before. I defend Olivia's MIL because I could see myself wanting to ask a similar question. Not because I was judging someone, but because I didn't understand that there was a different POV than I had previously considered.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
(((((Olivia)))))

space opera
 

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Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
 
Grrrr.

-Trevor
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
There's a time and a place for everything and that wasn't it.
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 
Agreed.
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Amen.
 

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Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
 
There's a time and a place for interfering in other people's sex lives, and it's at the bottom of the sea, right now.
 

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Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
 

quote:

---

You're Righteous, So Righteous, So Righteous, You're Always So Right

---

Glad you noticed, I've been, you know, working out.

Hobbes
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 
"Baby, can you dig your man?/He's a righteous man!" - Larry Smallwood
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
"Monsters?"
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
There's aaaaa hole in the bottom of the sea....
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Bev, I know that tradition says it is wrong....but where in the Commandments does it prohibit it?

I don't care about the Bible, really...you can find justification for almost anything in there if you dig through the old testament..

But which commandment prohibits it?

It isn't adultry...that is cheating on a spouse.

No spouse, no adultery.

Hell, there were Popes with many illegitment children, and preists married...until fairly modern times, anyway.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
 
Come on. This isn't about doctrine. It's about respecting other people and not being a shit. This woman wasn't just being curious. She was intentionally belittling friends of Olivia's at a bad time and place. Who gives a rat's ass what the Bible 'really' says in this context? Any adult should understand that there are people who believe differently than what they do. No one would want someone telling them they weren't a good person/Christian. It's nonproductive and stupid and juvenile. This woman's behavior was impolite and rude, no matter whether the bible backs her up or not. Jebus.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
Mother-in-laws can press your buttons like no one else. My MIL once made a comment about the way I arranged the furniture in our apartment and it still ticks me off.

Hang in there, Olivia.
 

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Posted by BookWyrm (Member # 2192) on :
 
Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong but, weren't concubines considered outside marriage? And didn't Solomon, David and a slew of others have concubines? Would that not be considered 'premarital' since I believe some were married later.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 


I'm sorry, Olivia.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
You know, if we're not supposed to judge, then maybe we shouldn't be judging the MIL.

It's one thing for Olivia, and anyone else who has to deal with this person, to come here and tell he firends that she's upset, and why. That seems appropriate.

It's another to dog-pile someone we don't know, using a doctrine that itself contradicts the righteousness of the dog-piling.

So I'll echo Sara's sentiment: I'm sorry you had to deal with that, especially on your son's birthday.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
I agree that the M-i-L chose the wrong place and time to speak her concerns, but does that mean she doesn't have a right to voice her concern at all? Condemn her for choosing to voice it at her grandson's birthday party, but don't condemn her for having that opinion.

Lutherans, at least ELCA and Missouri Synod, believe premarital sex is wrong. It might not be Olivia's M-i-L's business, but it is the business of the seminary, his future congregation and others that look up to him as higher standard.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I can't believe he's five. yes, I can, because the twins are four, and Robert and Emily are seven.

*shakes head*

The other day I was looking through pics and found some of us at the zoo that day the white tiger came up and visited us all.

They grow so fast....
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
I cast a quizzical eye on "indirect." "Indirect" usually means indirect in the denotation of verbalized language but quite direct (unmistakable) in both body language and the connotation of the verbalized language. The point gets made quite clearly, but it is so easily denied: "I didn't say that." (Yes, you did.)

I can't think of any truly admirable benefits to saying something "indirect" which cannot be gained by saying it directly, discreetly, calmly, and quietly -- in private, with authenticity.

[ September 29, 2004, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
 
You handled it well, Olivia, and it is a shame she put you through all that! You are a wonderful mother by all accounts and a loving wife and I'm sure even a pretty darn good daughter in law. Don't let her comments get you down.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
That being said, I don't give much of a flying fig about whether Olivia's MIL is a jerk or not. I do, however, care that my friend was upset, and I am so glad to know her as a kind, direct, authentic woman with her mother's presence.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
(Yeah. What Christy said. )
 

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Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
 
This thread resulted in a dream where I hung out at your house,Olivia, and chilled with your kids.

Then I drove somewhere with Mack and witnessed a guy being shot down by a cop.

I have weird dreams.
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Mrs. M, Ron and I once had a huge cook out, with both our families at our old house in TN. It was our first house, and bigger and nicer than the one we're in now, since we were both working then.

Ron bought and cooked steaks and chicken and all sorts of things. It was a feast. Since it was a special occasion, Ron suggested I get out the stainless steel steak knives that my mother had purchased in Germany when I was a child (she'd given them to me when we bought the house). This style of steak knife is sharp at the tip, and not serrated, because in Germany they cut their meat with the tip (poke, poke, poke, not sawwing back and forth). They are very pretty and I was proud of them.

Well, she made a point of asking for a serrated knife, and when I gave her one, she got up and brought more of the cheap knives out so everyone else could use them, because my German knives were impossible to cut steak with and why did they even make them that way.

I didn't stab her. But if I ever do, the knife will be serrated.

Oh, and that was after I met her at the door (It had taken me a bit of time to answer because I was mopping the floor and had to go around the wet part) and she said , "Good Morning! Sorry to wake you." It was 1pm.

Things were better for a while when the babies came, but the bloom is off the rose as far as her grandchildren go, so now I suck again.

I have tried really hard. I've collected state quarters that I knew she needed for her collections, and tried to show an interest in stuff she does. I help out in the kitchen when we visit, and try to be a good hostess when they come here.

My friends' parents always loved me. My other boyfriends' parents liked me too. I'm not accustomed to being disliked, and having the worst be assumed of me. When Ron and I started dating, I was actually way more religious than anybody in his family. I was this scrubbed-clean virgin girl, but even then, she assumed the worst (probably because she knew Ron pretty well ). I have since been thoroughly corrupted, fulfilling her presumptions I suppose.

I've never gotten to the point that I enjoy antagonizing her, though Ron does (and Mark, too, actually). David is the smart one. He does all sorts of things she wouldn't approve of, but moved out of state to keep her nose out of it.

Her negativity is beginning to affect my boys. They don't enjoy going to visit her. I don't know what to do. I'm beginning to wonder if I should let them NOT go see her if they don't want to. Nothing any of us do is ever good enough. I don't want my boys damaged by her low opinion of them.

And, yeah, I guess I'm not deleting it, since Ben doesn't seem to mind it.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Olivia, as someone who has a er, difficult, grandmother (I need to get the latest epistle to Tom, in which she tells me she was crying over my sinning ways while listening to a Dobson program on the Strong Willed Child and how much I'm hurting her and my mother because I'm living in sin with Steve) I would say if the kids don't want to see her, don't force them!

There will be enough obligatory family get togethers where she will see them anyway. And, sigh, if you can't do anything right anyway, why not at least buffer your kids from the worst of it, sounds like you are going to get yelled at either way, unfortunately. And you really don't want to have a grandmother become an object lesson for "this is how we get along with difficult people" until they get older.

*hugs*

AJ
 

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Posted by UofUlawguy (Member # 5492) on :
 
The whole Mother-in-Law phenomenon is interesting. I have a wonderful MiL. Truly. She is very sweet to me and to all my family. I love having her visit my home, and I love going to visit her. A couple of her other children get on my nerves sometimes, but in roughly the same way that my own siblings do.

But I have been very surprised at the difficulties I sometimes see in the relationship between my own mother and my wife. They love each other, they really do. But they have never been 100% comfortable in each other's presence. Since the beginning, they have both worried a lot about what the other thinks (i.e. my wife worries about what my Mom thinks about her, and vice versa).

Growing up, I never saw my Mom participating in the kinds of female political games that are purported to be so common between women. To me, she seemed just as straightforward and up-front as any man I knew. It would never have occurred to me to look for hidden messages in her body language, actions or between the lines in her words.

So it came as a big shock to hear my wife talking about the various ways in which my Mom had slighted her, or put her down, or left her out, or whatever. Most of the time, I was right there in the room with them, I and never saw what she was talking about. However, since she is the one I have chosen to spend my life with, I have stayed "on her side" in any conflicts or perceived conflicts with my Mom. And, by listening to her (my wife), I have come to learn how to recognize some of the things my Mom does and/or says that bother her, and have started trying to react to those things when I see them come up again, by gently but firmly letting my Mom know when I feel something she has done isn't quite right.

I don't want to make it sound like there is a war going on, because there isn't. They get along really well 95% of the time. I just want to help make the remaining 5% better.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
You're pretty cool, UULG. Actually, a really cool husband.
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Ron knows that his mother is usually passive-aggressive, and his grandmother on his mother's side is, too. He hates it, but has had the capacity to ignore her completely since sixth grade. She clips things out of the paper about how parents aren't controlling their kids anymore, leading to kids being monsters that disobey and never listen, etc. We know this is commentary on our parenting. It doesn't seem to matter that she's the only one who thinks our kids are terrors.

I dunno. I may just have to be done with her.
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
Oh come on.... she sounds rather funny.
 

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Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
 
Olivia,

I would have an up front conversation with her about it, with Ron in the room with you. Show a few examples of how you have felt belittled. Ask Ron to stop exchanging tit for tat, but to come right out and tell her that something was a mean thing to say/do at the moment she does it. Bring up how the boys have been feeling uncomfortable. I would tell her that if this kind of behavior continues, they will not be visiting her.

Things like the steak knives are thoughtless, but I suspect not meant to offend. But little jabs like "good morning" at 1 PM is meant to be mean. (edit: and clipping out articles about poor parenting. Wow.) And if your boys are picking up on the snideness, that is even worse.

Sorry you have to go through this.

[ September 29, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
If it is getting to this point, I would concur with Amka. You need to have at least Ron also with you, if not Mark as well. It sounds like she is likely to pretend ignorance of what you state is the problematic behavior.

This is the problem with indirectness: disingenuity. If someone will deny the covert action when called on it (politely, gently, but firmly), then you know the point of the indirectness isn't "to spare your feelings" or "to be polite," but to hurt without paying the price.

If you love someone, and you feel you must correct them for reasons of their own health, then the adult way to do it is directly, taking the responsibility for doing so on your own shoulders. Bearing the responsibility for correcting someone else is a Big Thing, partly because it comes with the responsibility for bearing the fallout. Otherwise, it's just getting your jujubes without shelling out the quarters.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Otherwise, it's just getting your jujubes without shelling out the quarters.

---

Such a nice turn of phrase you have.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*sigh* I agree with your post above Sara. But, this topic always gets me thinking about my own situation and how I could handle it differently and wish there was something I could do to deal with the situation directly that wouldn't blow up in my face.

AJ
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
AJ, my understanding is that you are not trying so much to correct as to avoid. Different matter entirely.

[Dagonee, thanks. Unless you are being tongue-in-cheek, in which case nah-nah, nahnny-poo-poo, dirty birdies all like you-hoo! ]

[ September 29, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Nonesense. If I had been being tongue-in-cheek, I would have used , even though his tongue is clearly not in his cheek.

I really liked it.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I'd probably be more worried about "correcting" if I had children. My parents method of correcting, now that I think about it, was avoidance. Move to the other side of the continent so you don't have to deal with it more than once or twice a year.

The problem is, with a familial pattern of avoidance, if I did attempt to "correct" it would blow up on the people I love the most other than Steve, my immediate family. And I know, that from a religious standpoint they do agree with Grandma, and believe that I have a problem that needs correcting.

I inadvertantly said something to my Great Aunt, about my Grandma in my teens, that resulted in a huge fight. It was the time my grandmother called me a slut because I had to practice the piano with a male vocalist as a class assignment, and OMG I was alone in the house with him for five minutes. I was hurt and trying to understand why it happenened from a generational perspective so I talked to Aunt Ruth and unbeknownst to me she yelled at my grandmother about it and there was this giant fight. I was totally unaware of it, until it got back to my mother cause everyone including my grandma was calling her wanting to take sides. Mom told my father, who finally said something to me like "You did it this time, AJ." And I had no clue the fight was happening about something I'd said to begin with.

So given the behavioral patterns of my family, as much as I would like confrontation and saying this can't go on, and even as much as I have buffered myself from the effects of this nonsense. I don't know that I could actually deal with the fallout.

My batty grandmother's health is bad enough, even if she didn't go to Heaven before her knee surgery, that it is possible a confrontation of the magnitude it would have to be could take a toll. People don't cross her. On the other hand it could keep her dander up and give her a reason to keep living as well, though sending me letters appears to be one of the reasons she gets up in the morrning now.

I admit I'm being somewhat passive aggressive in dealing with the situation, but I don't know what else to do.

Thanks to hatrack I do at least have more emotional detachment than I did.

AJ
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
(((Olivia)))

quote:

---

does that mean she doesn't have a right to voice her concern at all?

---

quote:

---

If she has been like this for years and years, I don't think having a talk with her is going to make her change at all. I'd suspect it'd just make the both of them mad.

I would say the thing to do is accept her for what she is, and adjust accordingly.

---

quote:

---

Why should one have to *adjust* to having deliberately hurtful things said about you in the first place?

---

You shouldn't have to.

But you still might have to.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
I'm so sorry, Belle. A lot of pain comes through in your words.

Xap/Tres, that is more of an option when there are not small children involved.
 

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Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
 
That is avoidance, tres. It also does not give the woman a chance to correct her errors because no one bothers to point them out to her. Sadly, Olivia's MIL has been raised that way and continues to behave in such a manner because no one wants to ruffle feathers.

What happened to AJ's family and her ongoing ordeal with her grandmother is the outcome.

Before talking to your mother in law, Olivia, I might learn more about passive/aggressive behavior other than rhetoric, in hope that the conversation will be useful (no matter how she reacts to it) rather than frustrating.

I mean, I don't think it would be just you, Olivia, that would be happier if she stopped the P/A behavior, but also your MIL in the long run.

edit: Of course, I hope you know this is all us just blowing off our opinions and "this is what you should do"s. You are in the situation, and you are the one in pain. Good luck, and I hope you find something useful here.

[ September 29, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: AmkaProblemka ]
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
Some things have to be accepted. Some things don't. No one is required to put up with belittling comments. If a person doesn't have the courtesy and respect to adjust thier behavior on request, knowing the behavior is hurtful, then that's the type of person I'd probably want to avoid, anyway.

Most people I know who like to make comments like this are also champions at getting very hurt when challenged, either because they're "just tellin' it like it is" or because they're "just worried about you." Then they like to add, "I guess I won't say anything at all, then. What do I know, I'm just you're [grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, etc.].

Dagonee
 

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Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
 
Exactly, Dag. Most people who do that are NOT acting in ignorance - they do it because it's useful to them and they figure they get more out of doing it than they would if they stopped.

Also, if someone clearly doesn't respect you (as evidenced by the belittling comments), why would they listen to a scolding from someone they don't respect?

*grin* My brothers used to tickle me a lot when I was a kid. It got old to me very quickly, but was still rewarding to them, so despite knowing that I didn't like it, they did it anyway. They quit when I started yelling at the top of my lungs as soon as they started. They quit remarkably quickly. It was no longer rewarding.

Depending on how you are with confrontations, "We can't be around you unless you are polite to me." could be very effective.

[ September 29, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
a) I was referring to the original situation, but I guess it goes for them all just as well

b) Among the possible adjustments are avoiding doing whatever might set them off (even if that means avoiding conversation in general), staying out of certain situations, attempting to make peace, and not worrying about what her opinion is. The most important adjustment would be to like her in spite of her faults - because once that happens it's much easier to ignore her negativity and she's much less likely to want to be aggresive around you.

c) It's not fair, but it may be best for your sake and everyone's. Life is a one player game, and you have to deal with whatever parameters it throws at you. Crying foul might be fair, but it doesn't solve things.

[ September 29, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*snort of laughter*

quote:

---

b) Among the possible adjustments are avoiding doing whatever might set them off (even if that means avoiding conversation in general), staying out of certain situations, attempting to make peace, and not worrying about what her opinion is. The most important adjustment would be to like her in spite of her faults - because once that happens it's much easier to ignore her negativity and she's much less likely to want to be aggresive around you.

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quote:

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They take a confrontation as you being passive-agressive to them

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Huh?

Confrontation is not passive aggression. If we were really talking about passive aggression here, it would not be transparent. Passive agression is when frustration in one area is transmuted into dysfunction in another area.

P.S. Basically, she is rude. But it's hard to tell someone they are rude without being... well, rude.

It's possible that the steak knives thing was not intentionally rude. They were something special to Olivia, and her husband suggested it, but it came back to her and not him. The "did I wake you" was rude. This thing about the commandments was rude.

P.P.S. My grandma had this ongoing issue about my race. If she had lived long enough, I don't think I would have let my children ever hang out with her alone. But I pretty much survived it. I don't know if raising children is about insulating them from any crazy relatives. It would make as much sense to never let them see PG movies. Cutting kids off from crazy relatives entails that you yourself are not at all crazy.

[ September 29, 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 

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Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
 
AJ,

I didn't say ignoring her would make her change. But I think nothing you do will likely change her.
 

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Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
 
(((Olivetta))) and (((AJ)))

Family stress sucks...

AJ, no offense, but your grandma has issues. I can't believe your parents would blame you for her craziness.

My parents have just gone through a stressful divorce...after 30 years of marriage. Dad left Mom for a much younger woman. Dad can't understand why people have not taken his side and Mom has been left paranoid at the world and at almost everyone around her as a result. Thus they make life miserable for my brother and I and most of our family and family friends.

*sigh*

It's gotten better though... I'm sure in 5 years or so we'll be back to "normal".
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I don't think any of us holds illusions that the person we are dealing with will actually change in their heart of hearts. The question for Olivia though is if the objectionable person can at least attempt to curb their behavior around their children.

Or, even if they will always pulling their nosy passive aggressive bs, they aren't doing it directly to you at least as often.

AJ
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 

quote:

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That's always the excuse of people who want to justify being aggressive back - that not fighting back would be naive.

---

• It's not helpful to be bringing up everything awful she ever did that hurt my feelings. It started when we were still just dating and I came to visit, and has continued with highs and lows since then. But dredging up the things she insinuated about me when we started dating won't help matters. They still hurt. Yes, it still hurts that she assumed I was a slut because I had a lot of guy friends (she saw me getting into a car with 3 or 4 guy friends--we were going to the movies, and only one guy had a car on campus. It was dutch and all that, but she smirked to Ron, "Hey, isn't that your girlfriend getting into a car full of boys?") I was never anything remotely resembling what she wants to believe I was. But it still doesn't help to bring it up now.
• And, it's not just me. Ron reminded me that his mother is a very critical person. She does itto everybody, except maybe her best friend. That's who she is. She's not my mother. She's more reliable in some ways than anybody in my family ever was. She tries to think around corners and help people she cares about prepare for things they may not anticipate. She told David and his wife that they should cut down the dead tree in their yard before Hurricane Charley came through. She'd call and remind them, and ask if they'd done it yet. She was certain it would fall on their house. They didn't get rid of it and it DID fall on their house. I'm sure it was as annoying as hell, but her heart was in the right place. My point is, it's not me, it's everybody. I'm actually looking better since she found out her second son's wife is kind of a Democrat. I refuse to talk politics, so she assumes I'm a reasonable Republican. There's no need to tell her I support Gay Marriage, etc. It would serve no purpose other than annoying the heck out of her and making my husband's life more difficult.

My poor father-in-law, though I THINK he mostly agrees with her world-view, has always been really nice to me. Possibly by way of compensation, possibly because he likes me. Though I think they both agree that my kids are the spawn of Satan.
Anyway, IF something else happens, I think I will take Amka's advice. It was good advice. I do think that maybe I've let my memories of past insults (I agree that the knife thing was probably not intentional, though the 'Sorry to wake you" couldn't have been anything other than intended to imply that Ron and I were complete Sybarites... as if that would be bad ) color the situation at hand. She's not a bad woman. I didn't mean to villify her. I just needed to vent, and I'm sorry I dragged you all into it with me.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Olivia, you and Ron are sensible people and will know what is put-up-with-able and what is not.

Go, Olivia!

[So sorry, Telp. ]

[ September 29, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
 
If any frustrated wives here would like a good laugh at my expense, I recently had a dinner with my mother where she tried to figure out how the emnity had grown between her and Monica.

She said (I am not making this up):

quote:

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I think it started when you guys got married. I mean, before that, you were all about the family, but once you married her, you started spending all your time on her.

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quote:

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She'd call and remind them, and ask if they'd done it yet. She was certain it would fall on their house. They didn't get rid of it and it DID fall on their house.

---

I'm sorry, I had to laugh out loud at that. Though if it were me I'd be mad a her .
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 


I would've probably enjoyed hearing that conversation in ways I shouldn't.

"Honey, oh my gosh, the tree fell on the house!"

"Oh, rats. And, uh, what a disaster for the house, too."
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Some parents (particularly mothers) just don't know how to let go of their children when they grow up. My mother has made the comment before that none of us kids married the sort of person she would have picked out for us. She feels like our spouses "changed" us. Well, duh, marriage is a compromise. Of course you are both going to change to become somewhat like the other. It is part of the whole "becoming one flesh" bit. Sometimes I think if she could have had us kids marry each other, she would have.

Jim, that comment from your mother is priceless. And scary.

Olivia, I believe you that your MiL has a passive-aggressive streak. I hate dealing with passive-aggressive behavior. Since I dislike it from others, I try really hard to avoid acting that way myself. I agree with Sara that being direct (and yet still kind) is the best way to go.

Does it seem to anyone else that women of previous generations were more likely to be terribly passive-aggressive than the women of this generation? I ask because it is my theory that in a time when women were not considered equal to men, I think a lot of women resorted to that behavior as an acceptable way of dealing with things they didn't like. I am hoping that as our society is more and more accepting of women speaking their minds, less women will feel the need to adopt that sort of coping behavior.

Incidentally, I still can't "stand up" to my mother's passive-aggressiveness. (She isn't that bad, though--thank goodness.) She is so sensitive to any perceived criticism--I feel like I have to be really careful what I say.
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
I think you're right about the passive-agressive thing. That was one thing my mother didn't ever do (that I saw-- there are stories of things she did before I was there. Like dad would eat sardines and crackers in bed, and she hated having the crumbs all over. So one day she made the bed with a very neat layer of crackers between the sheets on his side, and then went over it with a rolling pin. Dad never ate cracker in bed again, and the whole family laughed about it for years, even dad.) But I don't know if that qualifies as 'passive'. Mom was not passive. Mom was an Alpha Female, and fairly direct.

I don't understand some of it, really. She didn't want to come to a cook out we had just before I left to go to TN. She said she didn't feel well. Ron said he thought she just didn't want to come see him. The next thing he knew, his father was on the phone saying, "Your mother is crying."

She came to the cook-out in her red-eyed martyr costume, and I was stuck in the middle. It was horrible.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
OK, Kwea asked me a question.

quote:

---

Bev, I know that tradition says it is wrong....but where in the Commandments does it prohibit it?

I don't care about the Bible, really...you can find justification for almost anything in there if you dig through the old testament..

But which commandment prohibits it?

It isn't adultry...that is cheating on a spouse.

No spouse, no adultery.

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quote:

---

I think you're right about the passive-agressive thing. That was one thing my mother didn't ever do (that I saw-- there are stories of things she did before I was there. Like dad would eat sardines and crackers in bed, and she hated having the crumbs all over. So one day she made the bed with a very neat layer of crackers between the sheets on his side, and then went over it with a rolling pin. Dad never ate cracker in bed again, and the whole family laughed about it for years, even dad.) But I don't know if that qualifies as 'passive'. Mom was not passive. Mom was an Alpha Female, and fairly direct.

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quote:

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I think most Christian denominations agree, but ascribing it to the Ten Commandments is fallacious. I think that may be what we were getting at.

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Good point. Commandment #7 *does* use the word adultery, not fornication. I think a lot of people don't stop to think that through. If I had been you, I don't think I could have helped but point that out.

[ September 29, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I got married a year ago with a VERY short courtship. My mother felt betrayed that she didn't play a larger role in my decision and that I didn't have a wedding--and she wasn't there at the courthouse when I got married. I am supposed to have a wedding (maybe by my 2nd anniversary) but we've been too poor and busy so far. She and I had basically been best friends, so she took my getting married like that as a double betrayal--handling it VERY badly. I do regret that she wasn't there, but there's nothing I can do about it now. Since then, she gives a lot of unwanted advice and commentary on how we live our lives. Putting my husband down for not getting a "real" job (he's freelance and now a student) and throwing previous hopeful things I've said in my face when they don't work out. (Things regarding our spiritual and financial lives.)

Dagonee explained it just right above. When confronted, she protests that the things she's saying are TRUE. And when pressed not to say them anyway, she gets defensive with lines like "well, what do I know..." etc. I can't seem to get across to her that she's being disrespectful and butting in where she shouldn't.

My husband hates the way she acts and what she says, and it's starting to affect his liking of her. He actually really does like her when she's acting civily. So, we don't visit very often--which she is very upset about. Instead of deciding to be more civil, she refuses to admit there's anything wrong with her behavior and says that she is the wounded one and where's HER respect? I don't understand it, because we DO respect her. But respect doesn't mean we have to let her say whatever she wants--or be around her.

She reminded me last night that she still hasn't "bounced back" from my getting married. She says it has been harder on her than her divorce, which was very hard on her. I asked her what I was supposed to say to that, and she said nothing, it's just how she feels.

The big problem is, I MISS my mom. She raised me and my two brothers alone and we were a very close-knit family. I believe a lot of what she says, taking the blame for betraying her and causing her so much pain. I wouldn't give up my husband, but I feel like I totally messed up and NOTHING I do can make it better. Nothing. But as long as she continues like this, my husband is very reluctant to visit her (2 hours away), so either I go alone or I don't go at all. She could have fixed it all with a simple apology to him and he would have put it all behind him. HE offered her an apology, too, (although honestly, he deserved one much more.) He still hasn't gotten one--except for a "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings." My brother and his family live near her too, and I miss them as well.

So, it's nice to know I'm not the only one in this sort of situation. I don't want to cut my mother off, that would cause me a LOT of pain AND her, but it's not right for me not to take a stand with my husband. I know without a doubt that if his family said ANYTHING about me like what my mom says about him that he would have nothing to do with whoever it was anymore. (I think he'd give them one chance to apologize.) His words.

So, I can relate...

Edit: What Beverly's mom said about her spouses changing her... my mom has said that as well. She doesn't know me anymore, she says. Very hurtful to me.

[ September 29, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Katarain ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Man. If my daughters want to elope, more power to 'em. I don't want to plan their weddings! I have no such fantasies.

quote:

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So, we don't visit very often--which she is very upset about. Instead of deciding to be more civil, she refuses to admit there's anything wrong with her behavior and says that she is the wounded one and where's HER respect? I don't understand it, because we DO respect her. But respect doesn't mean we have to let her say whatever she wants--or be around her.

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quote:

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but I feel like I totally messed up and NOTHING I do can make it better. Nothing.

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quote:

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What Beverly's mom said about her spouses changing her... my mom has said that as well. She doesn't know me anymore, she says. Very hurtful to me.

---

We had a fascinating discussion about this with some friends of ours just awhile back. They told a story of a man who's wife died and he remarried. After marrying, his teenage daughter complained that he wasn't the same man anymore. He didn't like to do the same things as he used to. She blamed the new wife.

Well, the father sat the daughter down and said, "Why do you think I used to do all those things before? That was who I was when I was with your mother. This is who I am with my new wife. You change to meet your spouse halfway. It's called being a good marriage partner."

We all nodded our heads wisely at that.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

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She would probably say she forgave me, but she CAN'T forget. She probably still cries every night--she tells me that every once in a while.

---

IMO, when you forgive someone, you let go of the hurt. It's not like you are physically sawing her arm off. If this is just about her not getting to be a part of your wedding celebrations, that shouldn't still be hurting her now--not if she has forgiven you.

On the other hand, she may believe that you made an unwise decision and that you have much pain and anguish ahead of you because of it. That is a valid way for her to feel. But you didn't inflict that on her. If she feels that way, it is out of her love for you. She should not be acting like this is something you did to her.

It reminds me of when I was in a bad relationship (not that I am saying yours is bad, it has more to do with the POV of my friends/family) and my friends acted like my being in it was something I had inflicted on them and they had to distance themselves from me. I could never understand that. And it didn't help me at all, BTW.

What did help me was when my family finally let go and stopped trying to tell me what to do or change me. Once I didn't have to fight against them, I was more able to think about whether it was really what I wanted. If they hadn't "let go", I am pretty sure I would have married the guy.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Well, he's not our denomination (SDA) and that bothered her. She has made insinuations that he's not good enough for me. I HATE that. He's wonderful for me. That is such a horrible thing to say, I think.

I think missing out on the marrying part bothers her the most... and that he didn't ask my mom for my hand.

It was a stupid, short "ceremony" with the judge. We were in jeans. Ick. We were both stressed--and we both considered ourselves married BEFORE the stupid state ceremony. We were already committed. We made it "official" for the sake of others.. (we were living together). My mother told me that I couldn't have a real wedding later if I eloped, but I did it anyway... (this is a VAST simplication of events). One of the reasons was my husband felt it would make her accept him and I as a couple. Perhaps wasn't the best way to handle things, but it's done already and I've apologized up and down about it. She has changed her mind and is going to help me with a wedding, but my husband and I have to pay for most of it. That's okay with me. It's not like she's made of money. I'm just glad she's going to be involved--if it ever happens.

I don't wanna hijack the thread... I was just struck at how much what others were saying was familiar to what I hear from my own mom.

[ September 29, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Katarain ]
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
beverly, I'd say that passive-aggressiveness can sometimes be the only power someone in a position of little relative power can exert. I'd agree with you totally on the women of a certain generation, but IIRC, this is also something written of in the journals of slaves and a not-uncommon technique of children in closed environments (girls in junior high?). Even more underscores your point.

OTOH, being the one who is so sensitive and so easily wounded that others must tiptoe around you is a very powerful position to be in.

[ September 29, 2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
All this talking of cutting people off because they are rude just astounds me. If someone is a criminal still evading the law or an addict who won't get help, then you cut them off. If they are sexually abusing your kids, you cut them off. But if their relationship skills are bad or their notions antiquated, I don't think many of us will be knowing our own grandchildren.

Katarain, he didn't get an apology except for "I'm sorry I hurt your feelings"? That sounds like an apology to me. I'm not saying your mother isn't a narcissistic twit, but your husband isn't being much better.

I know Dr. Laura is all big on not being nice to people just because they are related, but she only knows what she knows and she does not know how it is to have the child get married and have kids of their own. P.S. neither am I... I'm just saying how would you feel if your spouse forbade you from seeing your parents with your children.

P.P.S.

quote:

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my husband felt it would make her accept him and I as a couple.

---

Umm, your husband is probably just young and a bit immature in thinking that. Sorry it's being hard for you. Though you did have a wedding, if you are now married.

[ September 29, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
pooka, it wasn't really the wording of the apology... it was when they finally talked about it on the phone, he got that apology and then a very long drawn-out explanation of why she was right and all the things that bother her about him. Basically, she re-did exactly the things that she was apologizing for in the same breath.

I probably agree with you a little more on just putting up with people's rude behavior--I'd rather just ignore it. But for the sake of my husband, WHY should he be continually belittled and/or prodded? It's not about cutting people off, it's about choosing not to put yourself in that sort of situation. They are perfectly FREE to do whatever they want, and we are perfectly FREE not to subject ourselves to it.

Edit to respond to an edit: My husband is 29. Not immature. I did say that perhaps it wasn't the best way to deal with the problem, but there's nothing we can do about it now. And besides, that wasn't the ONLY reason that we did it.

And we did NOT have a wedding. We're married, though. A wedding, to me, is a real ceremony. It's MY wedding, MY marriage, and if I say we didn't have a wedding, we didn't.

[ September 29, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Katarain ]
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I am LDS, and for an LDS to marry a non-LDS is often disappointing to the family. Most LDS parents hope for their children to marry another faithful LDS in the temple (a marriage for eternity, beyond death.) The temple ceremony is so simple, and often only a small number actually attend. No wedding dress or tux required. In fact, quite often the couple will rent/purchase those things, but not actually wear them during the ceremony! (All that is required for the ceremony is simple, extremely modest, all-white clothing for both.) They only wear the other for photographs and the other celebrations--"for show".

Many LDS feel the need to have a big reception and all--perhaps to make up for the relative simplicity of the actual temple ceremony. I did't really feel much need for that myself, but I think my mother (and many other members of my family) would have been very upset if I didn't have a reception and whatnot. So I tried to do something fairly bare-bones. I did insist on having Porter wear a tux in the pictures and to the reception. Any excuse to get him into a tux is well worth it! Mmmm, mmmm! We didn't bother with bridesmaides and groomsmen and whatnot.

Anyway, my point is I have a non-traditional view of the traditional marriage celebrations, thinking them terribly unnecessary myself. I find "big weddings" to be distasteful and a waste. Why not put that money towards your new life together? After all, the marriage is more imporant than the wedding.

But I also understand this would mean so much to your mom. Much of what I did was to appease my mother's desires. If you go through with it, I hope she appreciates it.

In case anyone hasn't noticed, I have no qualms about hijacking threads or continuing on tangents. I figure people can always post on the original subject if they want to!
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Katarain, sounds like a terrible situation to be in. Hopefully you will be able to be closer again in the future -- sometimes people change in ways that surprise us.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Katarain

When I was getting the most upset by the letters, I simply would have Steve read them, and tell me if anyone had died etc. I'd ask him if I wanted to read it or not. Sometimes he'd say yes sometimes he'd say no. Sometimes he would give me a synopsis, so that I'd be more prepared for when I actually did read the letter.

Knowing I didn't *have* to read them helped. Though talk about unsolicited advice... I think sending letters has got to be one of the more passive agressive things in the book.

AJ
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I *hate* fake apologies.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
Oh, I don't want a big, showy wedding. But I do want a pretty dress and the big party afterwards. He IS a Christian, just not denominational. I was thinking of a doing a themed sort of thing, like a medieval/renaissance/fantasy mix.

I forgot to respond to pooka regarding one thing. My husband doesn't forbid me to see my mother, and we have no children. He has said, that he thinks my mother will come around when we DO have children. Perhaps his ideas are a little old-fashioned, but he believes in honor and respect and on INSISTING on that from others around you. The excuse of "oh, that's just the way he/she is" doesn't fly with him. His views on this are consistent, no matter who we are dealing with, although he wouldn't blame children for learning such behaviors from those they are around. That's up to the parents to correct. So, there has NOT been any bad-mouthing of my mother here. We discuss the problem and sometimes it gets heated and emotional, but the conversations she imagines are unfounded. She GETS respect, far more from him than from me, I'm afraid. It's easy to fall into that mother/daughter relationship. I expect her to change her behavior regarding my husband and to not talk him down to me, but I continue to put up with whatever she wants to say about ME, while occassionally tellig her when she hurts my feelings. The converse, of asking my husband to speak respectfully about my mother is not needed since he already does.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Fake apologies do suck.

Double-dipping: you get to say you apologized without really feeling the burn of authentic remorse. Cheats yourself, too, as authentic remorse at the appropriate time heals the soul.

Hurts to be a grownup, though. And it is so danged wretched to keep screwing up all over again, even when you know better -- and then, it's hard not to self-flagellate, which does nobody any good, even if the martyr trip is a righteous high for those so inclined (and so addicted).

A truly authentic, earnest, appropriate apology is a wonder to behold and a thing of good in the world. We need more of 'em.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
I like that: it's kinda like you are throwing a party for all your friends and family to say "we're married"! The themed idea sounds fun.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
*very enthusiastic nodding*

Yeah, and we all get to dress up in very pretty clothes! I really want a medieval/renn. dress. I might even go for a colored dress, although I think it would be perfectly acceptable for me to wear white. I was a virgin when I married him, dangit. But colored dresses are so peeerty. *Grins*

Thanks for the sympathy. I just want it to get better soon. If we weren't so poor right now, we'd probably have kids sooner... As it is, we're waiting until my husband finishes school (he's starting his bachelor's and going straight on for his master's) and me (I'm in the middle of getting my master's).

Going to school as an adult is COOL. I read in another thread that Olivetta was concerned about going to class now. Shouldn't be. Plenty of adults go. Much better than going right away like I did and being stuck in something you don't like.
 

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Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
 
I obviously don't know your husband, Katarain, so I guess it doesn't matter. And if it was a "Sorry, but..." then that isn't an apology.

Anyway, I hope your mom figures things out before/in case you have kids someday. If you were really that close, then it must be hard for her. But at the same time you need to set the boundaries and not allow her to regard your getting married as a tragedy. You didn't do it to hurt her. Like you said, you thought it would make your relationship more acceptable. But if she thinks a wedding is a special day with a white dress and all that... I dunno. Of course you think that too. I'd be interested to see you defend that point to the IRS.

I've had one sibling that married out of the church, and last weekend I was thinking that it's actually kind of a good thing that people don't think the collusion of a marriage is necessary to maintain their faith. The next day, I learned yet another of my siblings is marrying out of the church and I was like "okay."
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
If I could do mine over again, I would love to wear something renaissanc-ie.

Get a load of this

[ September 29, 2004, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: beverly ]
 

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Posted by the master (Member # 6788) on :
 

quote:

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When I was getting the most upset by the letters, I simply would have Steve read them, and tell me if anyone had died etc. I'd ask him if I wanted to read it or not. Sometimes he'd say yes sometimes he'd say no. Sometimes he would give me a synopsis, so that I'd be more prepared for when I actually did read the letter.

---

The vast majority of my communication with my mother goes through Bill. She can manage to talk to him without requesting any level of approval for her lifestyle choices. With me, this no longer seems possible.
 

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Posted by Katarain (Member # 6659) on :
 
I don't have anything to explain to the IRS. We are legally married, and they don't care what sort of ceremony we had. We filed our last taxes jointly, so there's no problem there.

I suppose if you want to get technical, we had a civil ceremony and not a religious ceremony. It is the religious ceremony that I still want. However, since I believe that God has already approved and blessed our union, I don't really think of the "wedding" as a religious ceremony, although it definitely WILL be. See, the IRS has nothing to do with it. I'm afraid I'm not sure what you were saying there...

Mom and I just had another talk. We're really not seeing eye to eye. I've agreed to talk to her therapist on the phone, hoping that he'll be able to help communication between the three of us.

Beverly, that's very pretty. I haven't decided on my dress yet. I may not do a themed wedding, though--kind of depends on a lot of things. And even though it's supposed to be "My" day, if a themed wedding bothers my mom, I'm willing to compromise a lot. She's pretty cool about that, though, usually.

-Katarain
 

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