******(The thread may contain SPOILERS. You have been warned!)****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I've read the first chapter, which is about 44 pages in my hardback edition. We haven't really set out any guidelines for the discussion, so I'll start my part of it at whim.
These are the primary three questions which I had as I appraoched rereading the novel.
1. Who is this first character presented (Zhang)? What is he like in his inner and outer life?
2. How does the storytelling serve to enforce or represent these characteristics?
3. How does this relate to the world he finds himself in?
I'm still pulling together my thoughts, but I'll post my answers later in the day. Feel free to answer these questions, or pose your own, or take the discussion in an entirely different tangent.
I think it's a freeform sort of Book Club.
[ October 18, 2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
[Of note, some people have not had a chance to obtain the book yet, so if we want to delay reading it or just focus on the beginning for now, that's cool by me. I was feeling some obligation to get something up, though. Since I still need to update & bump another thread for Zeugma, I have plenty of other writing to do. And work, too, of course. ]
[ October 10, 2004, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Is anybody reading? I'm about halfway through the first chapter. Unfortunately, I've found myself pretty busy the last several days. I expect to be finished with the chapter tomorrow, and will post some comments then.
space opera
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
My copy still hasn't arrived. Curse media mail.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I have mine and Tom & Christy have theirs. I've read and written on the first chapter (not posted yet, though), and I'm finishing off the book today. I believe Tom has finished his reread, and I think Noemon has as well.
In talking to Christy last night, I realized how much of the book is slowly, sparsely revealed. Things which happen in the beginning set the stage for later events, and aspects of the characters are revealed in stages. I think it might spoil things too much to discuss the book if you haven't finished it yet, though I still like the idea of chapter-by-chapter discussion. Might be worth waiting until all those participating have finished it.
Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
[ October 12, 2004, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Heh--it was with the express purpose of creating this thread that I came here this morning--I wasn't online all that much this weekend; I was busy taking care of wiring problems in my house (most of which I've solved, but one continues to give me trouble).
I'm also curious who has gotten ahold of a copy, and had time to read it. Right now it's me, Sara, and Space Opera. Anybody else?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Obviously I need to type faster (or, actually, not try to email Christine, post on Hatrack, read Something Positive, and help out three hapless users all at once).
I agree that it would be better not to post spoilers this early on; I think that a chapter by chapter approach is probably best. Here in a week or two we can post spoilers with abandon.
If the discussion ends up being good, I was thinking about emailing Maureen McHugh a link to it. What do you think?
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I think Tom's reread it already.
Christy will be reading it but hasn't had a chance to do so yet.
Zan (zgator) is waiting for his copy.
katharina will watch, but she won't be rereading it.
celia and plaid might pop in late. I think we aren't supposed to wait for them.
-------------------------------------------
pooka?
rubble?
(We'd love to have you! )
-------------------------------------------
And for completeness, here's the link to Noemon's original Hey Sara/CMZ thread.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Of course, anyone else is welcome to join in, too.
Noemon, sending a link to author sounds great. Even if she doesn't want to participate, it would have to be fulfilling to know that people take your work seriously.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's what I was thinking Sara. Back in the late 90s I emailed her a couple of times, and she was always prompt about replying, so there's a decent chance that she'll get the message and check the thread, I'd think, although I'd be surprised (plesantly surprised, but surprised nonetheless) if she participated.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
I've completed my first read-through. I was watching this thread in eager anticipation this weekend, but didn't really have time to contribute myself. I may have time tonight, but tomorrow is right out.
See ya soon!
Rubble
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
*bump for pooka
Have you gotten the book yet, or are you still waiting, or do you maybe want to take a pass? We'd love to have you -- just planning things out.
[ October 12, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I got as far as 37 pages or so, not quite through the first chapter last night after talking with Sara. Tom hasn't read it before and hasn't picked it up yet as far as I know. I'm not sure if he is actually in or not.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What do you think of it so far? I'm trying to put myself in the mindset of someone reading it for the first time, but of course that's difficult to do.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
In addition to the questions posed by Sara here are some things that I'm going to be looking at as a re-read the book:
1. What are the "science fiction" elements of the story?
2. How do these sci-fi elements relate to other authors' or screenwriters' use of similar concepts? Specifically, is this the first time such a concept is used, and if not how does it compare/contrast to others' use of the concept.
3. Are the sci-fi elements integral to the themes of the novel or just fixtures of the setting.
It is just part of my nature as a geek to need to answer these questions when I read science fiction.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I love paying attention to the little details of exposition and character development, and the structure of the plot itself, as well as speculating on the the authors reasons for channeling the plot in the way she does. This should be a really fun thread.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Noemon,
What led you to read this novel the first time? Was it a recommendation? Had you read others by the same author? Was there something in the subject or characters that you had heard about?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It was pretty random. I saw it on the shelf at my then favorite bookstore and thought Maureen McHugh? Never heard of her. Wonder if she's any good? Turns out she is.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I've read through page 34. I'm finding the characterization of Zhang's susceptibility fascinating, and possibly symbolized by the work of demolition he is doing at the start. That is, the way he is acquiescing. I see a lot of that in myself.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Pooka,
Since it is my second time through I'm missing those first impression sensations. This time I'm picking up on foreshadowing and character traits that later on the author is a bit more blunt about.
I'm glad your participating! I sure enjoyed reading it the first time. I sure wasn't able to keep it at just one chapter.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
quote: I love paying attention to the little details of exposition and character development, and the structure of the plot itself, as well as speculating on the the authors reasons for channeling the plot in the way she does. This should be a really fun thread.
Sara was trying to touch on this in our conversation last night and I find it amazing how the story seems to be TOLD in those little details of exposition. The style is very terse, but incredibly descriptive at the same time. I am incredibly drawn in even though the events are fairly mundane. I'd like to read it a second time because I'm sure I'm missing things the first time around even though I'm just in the first chapter.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I know Christy! I've got some notes on the subject. I'll create a post on it tonight.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Is it going to be a landmark? I'm not expecting one, I just noticed, and sometimes it turns out people wish someone had pointed it out.
Posted by plaid (Member # 2393) on :
Just got my copy, reading chapter 1... I'll have it read within a day or two, go ahead and start if y'all want and I'll catch up...
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Pooka, it's funny that you mentioned Zhang's occupation (demolition) 'cause I was thinking about that today. I've read the book a few times before, and I really think it's a good idea to watch the changes in his occupation carefully. I feel they're very telling about his state of mind and where his life is going, which is something I never caught until now.
In the first chapter Zhang seems so isolated, and is surrounded by isolated people. He's gay (which still doesn't seem to be totally acceptable) and is not really Chinese (though he appears to be). His foreman at work is out of place since being sent away from China, and the daughter is out of place because her physical deformities.
space opera
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I think the gay thing may be a spoiler for people who haven't read deeply into the first chapter, and so I'll change the title of the thread to reflect it. (I love the way this is gradually revealed.)
Let's open this up for discussions of the first chapter. I'll post my thoughts tomorrow, along with attempts to answer rubble's questions and pooka & Space Opera's thoughtful assessment (I hadn't realized the job connection, either).
Cool. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Space Opera's point about how isolated he is at the beginning is a good one. Pooka, it's worth noting that while the actual task he's doing at the beginning of the book is demolition, he's actually overseeing the building of something. At this point in the story he isn't really doing that in his life; he's pretty much just completely adrift, with the slightest bit of force in one direction or another causing him to change direction.
Now, as to exposition and such--I'm not seeing my notes, so instead I'll just flip through and try to remember some of the examples of it that I find so striking.
I love, absolutely love how deftly and subtly this world is drawn for us. You know how occasionally you'll see a drawing in which there are a bare minimum of lines, and yet the object is fully, undeniably, obviously there? McHugh does that with her writing. The example of the subtlty of her touch that I like best comes very early on--page 3 in the copy I'm reading.
quote:"Zhang," the foreman says and so I follow him into the office. Inside, over the door it says "The Revolution lives in the people's hearts" but the paint is wearing thin. It was probably painted during the Great Cleansing Winds campaign. I don't think Foreman Qian is very pure ideologically, he has too much interest in the bottom line. It is loke the crucifix in the hall of the apartment where I gew up, something everyone passes ever day. I have no religion, neither Christ or Mao Zedong.
My god, there's more exposition woven into that one paragraph than there are in most laboriously constructed prologues. That "but the paint is wearing thin" speaks volumes about this place, this time in history, and the people who live in it. Volumes. In addition, she introduces the whole idea of The Great Cleansing Winds, dropping a mention of it so casually and naturally into Zhang's thoughts that one wouldn't even necessarily recognize it as exposition at all. She also conveys quite a bit of information about Zhang with the bit about the crucifix. Reveals significant information about his upbringing, as well as the fact that he's pretty much rudderless. Of course he doesn't believe in Christ of Mao--he doesn't believe in anything at all.
More to come in a minute.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I find it really interesting that the author uses exactly as much Chinese as I know. Which isn't much. It must be a whole different book for some people. For instance, I'm half chinese but regularly mistaken as full chinese- by other Asians. Though his mother being hispanic is odd. I mean, Native Americans and Asians are genetically very similar. I'm interested to see how that will play out.
P.S. It seemed really obvious to me that he is gay. Though the fact that it is a "capital crime" (allusion to The Mikado : "It IS capital!") in China (the dominant culture) might explain why it is still so repressed in this story.
[ October 12, 2004, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Okay, so, she does a good job, in the first 4 pages or so, of introducing us to a world in which China dominates North America politically, albeit from quite a distance, dominates most of the globe culturally. We haven't seen any dramatic displays of future tech at this point. There is a reference to gene tinkering, but we're probably only a decade or two from that now.
It would have been easy enough for McHugh to have Zhang jack into his cutter or something there in that very first scene, and that's probably how most authors would have handled it. Instead, she does something much more subtle.
quote:I watch the copper marks under the skin of her wrist. Then I watch the copper marks on my wrist, almost like bruises. She ties into her terminal every day, I just my jacks only when I'm working with machinery.
Again, no overt explanation of the technology; nothing that would be out of place from the narrator's perspective. It isn't even stated that the copper marks are the interfaces by which people access computers in this world. It's clear as day that that's the case though--the two connected sentences are simply set next to each other as Zhang's mind flits across them. McHugh is a master at this kind of delicate, precise arrangement of ideas; you'll see it in the way the various plotlines in the story are fitted together. You know how at Machu Picchu the stones are fitted together rather than mortared? It's kind of like that. The elemets of her writing are so precisely laid out that they don't need to be cemented together to be rock solid.
[Edit--well, by the light of day that Machu Picchu analogy doesn't really fit. It implies a heavyness that doesn't exist in McHugh's work. The elements that she arranges do fit together that precisely, but there's a lightness to them that has nothing to do with stone. So, analogy retracted. If I hadn't posted it so many hours ago I'd just delete it.
[ October 13, 2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Pooka, I forgot to say, but thanks for pointing out how close I am to 6K posts. I've never really been all that caught up in post count, and while I probably will do a landmark thread at some point, if it corresponds with a nice round post count it'll be a coincidence.
Nonetheless...wow, 6000 posts. Thats...that's a lot of posts. I wonder how many hours of my life I've spent here? I can't imagine spending it with a more fantastic group of people. The place in nice, but it's the people it attracts that I really love.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
:is drawn to Hatrack like a mosquito to a CO2 generator:
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
By the way, I sent McHugh a link to this thread, along with a brief discussion of what it is. I doubt she'll post or anything, but hopefully she'll find it interesting.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I heard back from her (very quickly too!). Here's what she had to say:
quote:Jake,
Thanks for the heads up! How about if I let you guys all read it, and then, if you want to ask me about technique or anything, I'll pop in at the end? (I love to talk about writing with writers.)
Maureen
How cool is that?
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Aaahhh....it still hasn't come.
Must...not...read...spoilers.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
The butler did it, Zan.
Oh, what a giveaway! No point in reading it now, really, I'm afraid.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
The end of chapter 1 is sure a dangler. Was that the whole joke, to see who would actually stop at the end of chapter 1? Then I had to reread the start of chapter 2 once I realized we now have a different narrator and didn't merely leap ahead in time by alot.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
quote: McHugh is a master at this kind of delicate, precise arrangement of ideas.
I agree. I was discussing with Tom how this book almost didn't even feel like a science fiction novel because everything seemed so seamlessly integrated into the storyline. You definitely aren't overrun by the technology in the setting.
Here are my notes for Chapter 1 keeping in mind the questions posed:
The storyline seems to eminate from around Zhang, not from him directly. This technique emphasizes the isolation of Zhang and sets him up as an apathetic, lost character to whom things happen. The world affects Zhang, but he does not affect the world and is not sure that he should. He sees the world as structured and he is "bent" in it. "Government is large and the only way to be free is to slip through the cracks"
Yet we also learn most of what we know about Zhang from his interaction with others -- namely San Xiang. She is a reactionary and is full of ideas and change, nievity and hope to counter Zhang's apathy and status quo.
"Places are pretty much the same underneath."..."Because you would still be you and if you were unhappy here, you would be unhappy there"
Another note: Zhang is named after a famous Chinese revolutionary. Perhaps he is doomed to do great things under the influence of San Xiang but is hopeless/stuck in a rut now?
I think the sci-fi elements will become part of the theme, but right now they only seem to me as color to the story. I get a sense of escapism through "jacking-in" that may come to be further developed.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:I get a sense of escapism through "jacking-in" that may come to be further developed.
Interesting (all of it was really). What made you think this? Just other stories that involve direct computer/human interfaces, or something in this chapter?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
As I read, it begins to occur to me that reading chapter by chapter is a VERY difficult way to review this book. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Yeah, I wouldn't want to have to read this thing slowly, if it were my first time through it.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
It's not even the speed. It's that each chapter -- and this is a pretty oblique spoiler, I suppose -- deliberately confounds the one before it. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I found McHugh's touch to be so deft and delicate that I was unaware of the strength of the foundation she lays. Noemon quotes a paragraph above that is crafted in the best sense of the word -- produced with care, skill, and ingenuity. Like competitive ice-skating at the higher levels, it looks seemless and light, even easy, but there is so much accomplished in the mechanics.
Taking it piece by piece is the only way I can appreciate it now, although I too wouldn't have initially read it that way. However, my main problem isn't that chapters confound the previous ones, but that chapters foretell what is to come, and it's hard for me to restrict myself to just what is seen at each given moment. The foreshadowing is almost invisible, but it is also almost seamless.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
I guess it was the jacking into the kite flying. It seemed ethereal and a vivid contrast to the stark world.
I haven't read beyond chapter one, btw, so you're getting purely first impressions. Not because I don't want to, but because most of my reading so far has been done in the few minutes I can stay awake after Sophie nurses before bed.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Actually, I'm delighted that that's the case Christy; I'm going to be kind of vicariously experiencing the book for the first time through what you say about it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
So where have people read up to? I'm still on the third page of Chapter 2. I'm kind of mad that Zhang has disappeared from the narrative.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
He hasn't disappeared. He's in hiding.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I've read through the book, but I haven't posted my detailed thoughts yet on Chapter 1. It's been such a pleasure reading the discussion above, though.
Changed the title to reflect general progression.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I felt the same way the first time I read it pooka. I was afraid that I had misunderstood, and that this was a collection of short stories set in the same universe, rather than a novel. Don't worry though; you'll be seeing more of Zhang.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
So pooka, have you made it through chp. 2 yet? If so, it's interesting to see Zhang from a completely outside perspective, from someone to whom he is basically a random stranger to, isn't it?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Well, I guess one could say her activities parallelled his personal life. A disenfranchised outsider trying to skate along with a bent wing, ending in a thrilling accident. Recall that the first intimation that Zhang is gay, he talks about a place where he can be a falcon or something like that.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, I like that pooka! Good observation!
[ October 15, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Made it through the second chapter and am starting the third.
I LOVED the second chapter. Some favorite quotes: "I come into the light crippled" "I think my building likes me"
Quick notes and first impressions (hopefully more thought to come later):
Kite flying descriptions are so evocative! I love the media style tone of the chapter, especially how she wraps it up in the end in a much more direct narrative style.
She is a passionate and calculating character with a single focus in life. Kite flying is life and all else is death. Many juxtopositions: Light/dark, high/low, speed/sudden stops or crashes. Dramatic, but I'm not sure what it all means.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I generally find prose descriptions of spatial relationship tiring. This wasn't too bad, but I think it would have helped to know New York better.
paraphrase: "the combination of seriousness and hyperbole that the sober can't abide..." I didn't know what this meant until I read my first Ann Coulter column yesterday. It seems like she's kidding, but suddenly she seems to be saying something she actually thinks. Very confusing.
So who else is reading chapter by chapter for the first time besides Christy and me?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've read it many times before, and I just reread the whole thing as we were starting this, but now I'm going through it chapter by chapter. I guess the short version would have been "not me".
I often don't enjoy descriptions like that either pooka. All of the quidditch stuff in the various Harry Potter books has bored me to tears. Sounds like, like you, reading this passage made me wish I'd been to New York so that I could have pictured the flight better in my mind's eye.
Where are people with this, anyway? Christy? Pooka? What chapter are you guys on at the moment?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I started Chapter 4, I think. Jerusalem Ridge? I actually saw Baffin Island on a Map today. It's as big as California.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
I've been waiting for some time for Sara to post her discussion of the questions she posed at the beginning of this thread. I thought I'd post my observations to see if they'd help pry those thoughts out of her!
Sara, please forgive me for crudely hacking away at *your* subject.
Outer Self: - Zhang is outwardly an ABC citizen of the former US. This puts him about three levels down in the social caste system. (In my mind below Natural Born Chinese in China, NBC outside of China voluntarily, and NBC "banished" from China.) - He is a semi-skilled construction worker. He has not reached the “glass ceiling” of his breeding, but is not actively looking for advancement. - He attempts to portray himself as a heterosexual male. These characteristics are shows in his interaction with the foreman who want to set Zhang up with his daughter. - He is a good worker, skilled in his specialty, and aware of the needs and motivations of those he works with and who work for him. - He exhibits a quiet formality and classic oriental “good manners” which bespeak “good breeding”.
Inner Self: - Zhang is a Mexican / Chinese half-breed. His outward physiognomy belying Chinese lineage is the work of genetic alteration. - He is homosexual living in constant fear of being outed. - Zhang’s apparent lack of motivation to advance professionally is actually a wish to forego close scrutiny both of his genetics and his sexuality. His perception is that if either of these “inner” facets is known he will immediately be relegated to the bottom of a lower caste. - Zhang is very modest and doesn’t necessarily recognize his skills or his potential. The first person storytelling allows us to make positive judgments of Zhang as he deals with his coworkers, his boss, his date, and his friends. I walk away with a very positive impression, but Zhang is not that impressed with himself. - I’m still not sold as to if Zhang is completely cynical about his oriental “good manners” or not. At times he inwardly recognizes that he is behaving in a certain way to please his various masters, but other times he seems to behave that way just because that is the way he is. I’d like to believe that he is just self aware enough to recognize and manipulate his actions, but I need to read more to decide for sure.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
(This is lazy Christy)
I'm still on Baffin Island. Bout of the flu and a busy weekend haven't left me any time/energy to read.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I finally went and got the book on Friday, although that means it will probably come in the mail today. I thought I would go ahead and put my first thoughts down before I went back and read the thread. I've made it through the first 2 chapters and have started the 3rd.
It amazes me how the sci-fi is so subtle in the story. When Zhang jacks into his equipment, it's stated so matter-of-fact like there's nothing remarkable about it. There's no detailed description of the process or the equipment. The same with the kites in Chapter 2. I almost missed the line where it said that the kites were powered by the flyer's own metabolism. It's not elaborated on, it just is. Also, when Angel states that buildings like her. When she goes to clubs, while others wait in line, she goes in, not because a bouncer liked her look, but the building did. Once again, there's not much explanation of how or why this is, it just is.
I had more emotion invested in San-Xiang at the end of the first chapter than I did with Zhang. I felt a lot of pity for her. She's an "ugly" girl whose father used her "face money" for himself. She's doomed to always be unwanted. The one man her father tries to set her up with is actually gay and is not even ABC as her father thinks. When Zhang shows no interest in her, she can only think it's because of her ugliness. But then at the end, she used Zhang the same way her father tried to use her. She must have known that when her father found out where she had been, Zhang would be fired.
I wonder if she was truly ugly or just average looking. In a world where it's common and almost expected for faces to be corrected the same way we correct our teeth with braces, does average looking become ugly?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'm pretty sure that she's really supposed to be fairly horrifically ugly. Her problem isn't just that she's not as good looking as one would expect; she has a congenital problem with the bones underlying her face not having formed properly, doesn't she?
Do you think that she knew that her father would fire Zhang? You'd think so, but San-Xiang is incredibly naive; she's bright, but in part because of her face she's lived a pretty sheltered life. Most of her knowledge about the world is theoretical; she's at home in a study group plotting out a commune that will probably never happen, but she seems more than a little bit out at sea in her real life interactions.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Zhang’s apparent lack of motivation to advance professionally is actually a wish to forego close scrutiny both of his genetics and his sexuality. His perception is that if either of these “inner” facets is known he will immediately be relegated to the bottom of a lower caste.
This is true as far as it goes. Zhang, I'm sure, would tell you that this is why he doesn't attempt to advance himself professionally, but I don't buy it as the ultimate cause of his lack of motivation. At this point in the book, the defining aspect of Zhang's character is his tendency toward inactivity. He's like water, in that he'll flow in the easiest direction possible; he doesn't possess any motive force of his own. The homosexuality and genemod stuff are excuses, but if they weren't there he'd come up with others, I think.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
Maybe you're right that she wouldn't have known about Zhang getting fired. I guess part of me was railing at her thinking how could she not know.
Of course, I thought Zhang should have known as well what would happen. He can't seem to say "no" at this point to anyone however, whether to Qian, San Xiang, Peter, etc. Would I be wrong in thinking this characteristic is going to be used as part of his growth as a character?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
You know, I can remember being like Zhang is now. I still have a bit of a tendency toward inactivity if I'm not careful, honestly. That mess of an apartment that would only take him a few minutes to clean up, but that he hasn't bothered to get around to is so familiar to me, and I can remember in college thinking "okay, I'm going to buckle down and study tonight. No distractions." and then a friend would show up and want go go and get some food, and I'd think "oh, well, I have to eat. I'll just go grab a bite with Greg, and then back to work", and of course I'd end up being out all evening. Also, my pastimes were things I could lose myself in--books and computer games, mostly. Zhang's favorite leisure activity is jacking in and following the kites, which would be the perfect thing to do if you wanted to lose yourself in an activity.
You know, in the past when I've told people that CMZ was my favorite book, the first question they usually asked me, if they were familiar with the book, was if I was gay, which I always thought was funny. In writing this, though, I've realized why it is that I identify so strongly with Zhang in this book. It seems fairly obvious now, but I'd never really put it together before.
But anyway, in response to your post Zan, I had the same response, railing at San-Xiang in my head for not realizing the position she was putting Zhang in. At the same time, I was railing at Zhang. He *did* know what would happen, I think; it's just that at this point in the narrative he's not capable of of acting. He has no motive force of his own at all.
Yes, I know, I'm basically just saying the exact same thing you did, but taking twice the number of words to say it. Heh.
quote:Would I be wrong in thinking this characteristic is going to be used as part of his growth as a character?
I don't think it would be much of a spoiler to say that you wouldn't be wrong.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
[rubble, I'm back. Apparently I deal with my husband's extended business trips by baking many and varied casseroles to freeze, cleaning out storage units, and generally avoiding the internet. Who knew?
I'll post my answers and thoughts on the first three chapters before I read your answers or the following discussion. But I'll come back and read avidly.]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Noemon- that is exactly what I meant early on by Zhang's "moral susceptibility". I'll be interested to see how this translates into the cover blurbs about "outsider" heroism. It also raises a question for myself, if I could ever write a book about someone who was essentially unlike me.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
quote:I think; it's just that at this point in the narrative he's not capable of of acting. He has no motive force of his own at all.
I'm don't think that he has no motive force. I believe that he is acting out the chinese social contract. Even though he *knows* what the end result of his allowing San-Xiang to stay in his apartment, he is compelled to allow it by his adopted society.
Looking at his actions dispationately we can judge that he didn't owe San-Xiang anything. However, in my opinion, at this point in his life he is completely driven by trying to fit in to his caste and keep his status in life. To that end he feels compelled to behave in the way expected of a NBC.
Yes, No, Maybe?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I don't know. I hadn't really thought of it like that before, so it could just be me responding to the newness of the idea, but it doesn't really feel that way to me. I mean, if this were an isolated incident, maybe, but it really pervades all aspects of his life. Does he not clean up his apt. because of trying to live according to the caste he wants to be a part of? Does he go out with Peter even when he doesn't want to because of it? To me, letting Sian-Xiang stay in his apt. feels more like that pattern of behavior than of his trying to be traditional ABC or something.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
I had the opinion that he let San-Xiang stay because he couldn't say no anymore than he could say no when Peter would call and ask him to go out. He was a follower. He couldn't say no to Qian, he couldn't say no to Peter and his friends and he couldn't say no to San-Xiang.
Wouldn't the chinese social contract more likely forbid him from allowing a single female to stay with him?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Tom, above you said
quote:It's not even the speed. It's that each chapter -- and this is a pretty oblique spoiler, I suppose -- deliberately confounds the one before it.
I must have skimmed over that before, because I'm just now really noticing it. Can you elaborate on that? How does each chapter confound the one before it. I'm not sure I follow you.
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Noemon,
I'm going to hold out for now. I see your point of lack of motivation in many of Zhang's actions. I also think that many of his interpersonal actions are pre-defined by the culture that he has spent his lifetime trying steadfastly to adopt.
I'll revisit this as I continue through the book again. I don't want to "remember" out loud some of my impressions of the evolution of the Zhang character now for fear of revealing too much too early for those who are still first time readers.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It'll be interesting to hear your arguments supporting this as we go along.
[Edited to add an all-important "t"]
[ October 18, 2004, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Letting a single woman stay in your apartment as opposed to forcing her back out on the street? I don't know that there is anything in the cultural norm that allows a fitting response to her request. But at the beginning when she showed up, I thought he father had kicked her out knowing she would go there to "up the ante".
Also, I dont know that we can extrapolate a code of behavior that is foreign to our own (assuming we are all, to one degree or another, outsiders in a pluralistic culture). What good is a story you have to be Chinese to understand?
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
Pooka, I'm not sure that I'm reading your post correctly, so don't take offense if I misrepresent you
quote:What good is a story you have to be Chinese to understand?
I think that the reason that McHugh uses the Chinese culture as the setting for this book is because of her direct experience in that culture as a teacher. Don't you think that just as she is bringing the homosexual culture out into the mainstream by including it as part of her setting she is bring the Chinese culture out by including it? I think that it is imperative that the reader empathize, to learn the small facets of the culture that the author exposes throught the setting, to fully understand the actions of the characters.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
What do you say we officially move the discussion on to Chapter 3, Baffin Island? There's more we could say about the first two chapters, but people ::ahem Sara ahem:: that have input on the first two chapters can always bring it up later on. I'll confess that I've moved on and am now rereading the Daoist Engineering chapter, but I'll reread Baffin Island over lunch to refresh my memory of it, and then probably post something about it.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
*requires a spanking
Continue on. I will catch up. Right now, I'm gnashing my teeth on professional writing offsite.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How dare you do a part of your job rather than hang out with your friends online and chat about a book! Really woman, where are your priorities?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Okay, okay, I admit it, I started to go back and reread Baffin Island, but I love Daoist Engineering--it's one of my favorite chapters in teh book--so I went ahead and finished that instead, and was several pages into Three Fragrances before I realized what I'd done. I'll post on Baffin Island, but it'll probably be a little while before I do so.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
(again lazy Christy)
My poor head just hasn't been up to the task. I'm on meds now, so hopefully I'll be back at it in a day. *keeps fingers crossed*
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I just finished it again. My god, that's a beautiful book. I am absolutely thunderstruck by it every time I read it. It's just so...beautiful. I've read it twice now since we started reading it together, and I still feel overwhelmed by it. I'll go back and do it chapter by chapter now, I promise. So, where were we--about to begin Baffin Island, right?
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Rubble:
quote:I think that it is imperative that the reader empathize, to learn the small facets of the culture that the author exposes throught the setting, to fully understand the actions of the characters.
Right, but I don't think we should be ascribing actions to the chinese culture that haven't been exposed in the text. So I don't know who misread who first.
I find it interesting when the narrator repeats himself. In talking about his name, for one thing, and again with the Native woman looking Chinese. Looks like I need a refresh read too. I think her name is Maggie.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Maggie Smallwood, I think. How does he repeat himself in talking to her?
Posted by rubble (Member # 6454) on :
quote:I don't think we should be ascribing actions to the chinese culture that haven't been exposed in the text. So I don't know who misread who first.
I see your point!
I'm away to Rome for until Wed next week, so probably won't be participating. I'll get some time to play when I get back though. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Have fun! Do as the Romans do, that's my advice.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
He says twice that she looks chinese to him. It's not in him actually talking to her.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Oh, okay, I see what you're talking about. I find that my thoughts are like that too--they kind of loop back on each other, and I'll end up thinking the same thing several times. I took it as McHugh doing a really good job of getting inside the character's head. This is definitely the chapter for getting into his head, since it's the chapter in which he's stripped of all external distractions and forced to confront himself.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Finished Baffin Island and am a few pages into Jerusalem Ridge.
Wow. We learn so much about Zhang this chapter.
I would LOVE to see this chapter from someone else's point of view. I hope it is revisited.
He goes out into the stark ice continent of Antarctica and finds yet again a compassionate, book smart female to show him the way, yet he doesn't know how to relate to her or thank her.
He repeats San Xaing's philosophy that you are yourself wherever you are and if you are not happy, you will not be happy anywhere.
Ha, the description of the Canadians, nieve and out of touch, but nice. The description of the fancy sweaters just made me laugh. I can't imagine even here in my research building someone wearing such fashion.
This chapter really solidifies for me Zhang's complete abstraction from life. Especially his near-death experience. It was almost creepy and we get the thoughts going on in his head.
What a powerful nervous breakdown. However, I find interesting that even after all of that, things went back to "normal" It really wasn't portrayed as a life changing event -- again we get the abstraction because we hear from Maggie's point of view that everything is going to be okay now and only from Zhang that he began to study once again.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
quote: again a compassionate, book smart female to show him the way
Again? Are you referring back to San Xiang? I didn't see Maggie as similar to her. In San Xiang's case, book smart = clueless about everything else. Maggie's contribution was traditional and practical.
I think the idea of him not really having a purpose there like everyone else on the station is interesting. Something else that seemed significant to me is that he never interacts with the guy whose suit he is always borrowing. The sweater conversation and the ones Peter sends him were also funny.
P.S. So I'm also going to start with Jerusalem Ridge. *SPOILERS?* . . . . . . . I see it as someone who has a very different style from Zhang. This point of view character acts without thinking, whereas Zhang agonizes over everything. Nonetheless, they both wind up letting people they aren't attracted to stay with them. I'm not done with it yet, but that was the only link I could discern.
[ October 20, 2004, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
You know, it just hit me that Baffin Island is sort of a metaphor for Zhang's psyche - isolated and intense. It's also an alien landscape, and we all know how alien Zhang is compared to an average person in his society.
space opera
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Exactly Space Opera. When Zhang is at Baffin Island, he's forced to confront himself. I see Baffin Island as being very much an expression of his inner psyche.
That's interesting what you were saying about Martine, pooka. With Zhang, he goes along with *everything*, regardless of what he wants to do. Martine, on the other hand, acts very decidedly in a particular direction; I think that she just isn't honest to herself about her motivations. Look at the way she touches her hair when Alexi is around; hair touching is often an unconscious sign of attraction, or of flirting.
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote:It really wasn't portrayed as a life changing event
I left that chapter with the feeling that Zhang had undergone a life changing event. Not necessarily just the near-death experience, but the whole trip. The sunrise in the Artic seemed to echo Zhang's reawakening. He was no longer continuing down the same path of good intentions, but actually began to work in earnest towards a goal.
quote:Nonetheless, they both wind up letting people they aren't attracted to stay with them.
I believe Martine was definitely attracted to Alexi. She just didn't want to admit it even to herself.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
quote: Again? Are you referring back to San Xiang? I didn't see Maggie as similar to her. In San Xiang's case, book smart = clueless about everything else. Maggie's contribution was traditional and practical.
I don't see them as similar people, but find their interaction with and reaction to Zhang similar.
quote:The sunrise in the Artic seemed to echo Zhang's reawakening. He was no longer continuing down the same path of good intentions, but actually began to work in earnest towards a goal.
Wow, I completely missed that! It makes sense after reading on, though.
Jerusalem Ridge:
I see Martine as practical and directed. She has worked hard and made all the right decisions to achieve her station in life which should have made her happy, yet she wants more. I see her as in the mid-point of life, where she has had some experience and generally is comfortable in her skin. She is made young and social again through her interactions with Alexi. I find it interesting that the commune has broken down and that it seems that everyone has become self preserving. Nothing is ever really decided in meetings, committees produce the same results with the same people heading them. I get the feeling of comfortable stagnation with no young blooded changemakers.
I am truly amazed that even colonization of Mars has managed to be seamlessly introduced into the storyline without a bat of an eye. I hope she clarifies how they came to be there.
[ October 22, 2004, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Christy ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
W.W.M.M.T.? I'm going to just plow through the rest of the book before Nanowrimo starts.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sounds good. I was afraid that this thread would lose momentum, and it looks like it has. We can just discuss it at whatever length feels right on whatever timetable works at this point, I think.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Is this the chapter with the goat with the soul of a whore. The may be the best line in modern fiction. That and, "Life is extraordinarily cruel on ugly women." I think that's from the first or second chapters. The Mars scenes are my favorite. The subdued longing and practical sadness was wonderfully portrayed, not to mention the subtle relationships.
[ October 28, 2004, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
I've refrained from posting because I have no clue what chapter we're supposed to be on. The chapters with the Mars colony have always fascinated me. What do you think the author's purpose was for them? We do see a tiny bit of Zhang in them, but not really enough to learn any more about him other than he's tutoring. I think perhaps that the point of them is to tie back into the theme of home and that your soul must be your home. If your soul is unhappy, then a physical place doesn't change that. Martine comments that she was very unhappy on Mars at first and wanted to leave, but eventually it became easier to stay than to go.
space opera
edit: Why did I sign my name twice?
[ October 28, 2004, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
:: bump for Tatiana ::
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Whoa! This is fantastic! So much more than I was expecting! I'm looking forward to reading it all the way through when I have time. Thanks for the bump. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sure!
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
All these insights have been excellent, and broadened my appreciation of the book. I think I'll cross post my review to this thread, for the sake of keeping all the material on this book together in one place. I hope nobody minds.
Looking back on the Mars chapters, they were such an offshoot, with so little contact with the rest of the story, that I'm wondering how to understand why they're in here. I enjoyed them. I want to know how the situation resolved with the system being out of whack and the CO2 levels being too high. But I don't see what purpose they serve in the larger story.
I realize this thread is ages old, but in case anyone who has read the book wants to answer my question, I'll pose it. Was it to show contrast between Zhang's character and Martine's? The more passive versus the proactive? Was it just to show someone who had immediate practical need for Zhang's engineering expertise? Someone whose life would be made materially better by learning from him? Or some other reason?
I share everyone's astonishment and delight at how subtly the exposition was handled throughout. The world felt so real, I think, because she never called attention to any of these science fictional elements, just mentioned them in passing as they came into the story. Yet we weren't left puzzled of what the heck she was talking about. It was clearly understandable and expected, possibly because the things she mentioned aren't that far extrapolated from our current technology, but partly because of her masterful way of handling exposition.
She definitely got you to care about all the characters right away. I can never understand what it is about writers who can do that as opposed to those who can't. It seems purely magical to me. But almost from the first paragraph introducing each character, I already care about them and want to know what happens to them. That's probably the one thing more than anything else that makes me realize this is a really good book.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
My original review I posted before reading any of the commentary here:
This book is one of those that sneak into your high regard. It's not flashy or sensational, it's just very real. The author has the knack of writing characters you care about. All the various subplots weave together, touching at points. You find that you care deeply about what happens to each of them, and the story of their struggles, their loves, and their accomplishments makes really good reading. The world is extremely well-built and realistic. I totally do think China will be the world's main power in not too many more years. Everything about it feels true.
While I was disappointed at the story of my favorite character, the supervisor's daughter, (I thought she got a raw deal, and I would have liked to get more resolution on her story line), I found all the plot-lines engrossing. I want to know, too, what happened to the goats, and if the Martian contingent was able to get their system repaired or replaced in time to prevent any harm to the goats or people.
I thought it was interesting how the author chose a gay man for her title character. I thought it was sad that she depicted a world in which gays are no more accepted than they are today in ours. I would have hoped in 250 years or so that things would be better than that for gays and also for women. But not so.
In all things the book is understated. The struggle is not to save the world or to battle evil, but just to find a place, to make some room in the world in which the characters can live. In that way it's very like our own struggles in life, to earn a living, to pay medical expenses, and so on. It's a book that bears thinking about, one that grows in the imagination, and in the depth of the characters portrayed. I really liked this book.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Now these are additional comments I'm making in response to the discussion on this thread:
I was frustrated at Zhang's passivity at first. It seemed he let himself be carried along without exerting himself to do anything he wanted to do or aim toward a life he wanted to live. It did occur to me that the way things played out between his supervisor, the supervisor's daughter, and himself may have been partially due to Chinese culture. But not knowing anything about Chinese culture, other than through reading a few ancient books plus Amy Tan, I just left that idea in suspension.
The whole organic engineering idea sounds way groovy. I'm so ready to start on that system. I'm afraid engineering practice is growing farther and farther away from any sort of artistry like that, though, rather than toward it. It seems that I can't put a wire in a conduit anywhere in the plant without citing multiple standards, rules, and procedures which tell me or allow me to place it there. I feel as though I'm 3/4 attorney and 1/4 engineer these days. Any holistic idea of the system as a synergistic being has been completely fragmented, first by breaking things down into electrical, controls, mechanical, civil, stress, seismic, materials, etc. then by having standards and procedures for welding, inspection, lifting and rigging, foreign material exclusion, scaffolding, fall protection, fire protection, and so on ad infinitum. Like spending several days trying to convince the flow accelerated corrosion people that when you do an ultrasound test for wall thickness on a pipe for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with flow accelerated corrosion, you don't have to abide by the same standards. Each person is an expert on their tiny specialty and almost nobody sees the big picture. It upsets me.
So the idea of an individual working with the system to generate this complete harmonious design strikes me as marvelous. It's like AutoCAD version omega. I can't wait to try it!
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