quote:I have Obsessive Compulsive tendencies, but I've lately come to think of it less as a disorder
That's a really interesting statement, and I'd love to know your thougts on it in more detail. OCD is something that I've observed in other people, and it seems like a disorder to me. The other day I was sitting in my car listening to NPR, waiting for a story to end before I went in to work, and saw a guy get out of his car, lock it, walk about five steps, come back, check that he'd locked it, walk about 5 steps, come back, check that he'd locked it, and on, and on, and on. I felt really bad for the guy, but I didn't think that there was anything I could really do for him. He was still at it about five minutes later when the story ended and I went inside. How could that kind of thing be an adaptive, or even neutral trait?
Just in case it isn't clear, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything--I have quite a bit of respect for how your mind works, even if I don't always agree with your conclusions, and I'm really interested to know your thoughts on this, as they sound like something I probably haven't heard before.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There are different degrees of it, just like Autism.
My Dad is OCD, although he was never diagnosed....I have no dobut about it though.
He isn't really bad, but he is compulsivly neat and detail oriented.
He was considered a joker/class clown in school, and never did well, to the point of failing a grade in elementary school.
He taught himself to fly a plane, and became one of the most respected people in his entire company, probably because of thos same traits.
Kwea
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Interesting question. I agree that there are definately degrees of OCD. I don't define my OCD tendancies as a disorder, either. Mine tends to crop up when I'm under extreme stress - and I haven't been for several years, thank goodness. However, during that time it can get bad. I remember several evenings of it taking me an hour to go to bed because I couldn't stop checking the stove. Mr. Opera has never seen it at its worst, but I have warned him that if he catches me checking things to bring it to my attention.
Though it doesn't manifest itself like that all the time, I am big on having things done "my way" around the house - for example household work has to be done in a certain order. I dunno. It's just a part of myself, and I don't like calling a part of myself a disorder. It's just me.
space opera
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
My wife unfolds all the laundry I fold, even though it fits my way too..becasue it itsn't done "right" my way.
She can't help it, she HAS to do it, even though it drives me batty.
Posted by Boon (Member # 4646) on :
I don't really care whether the laundry gets folded or not, but if it is, it has to be a certain way or I'll unfold it. Especially towels. Nobody but me can fold the towels. EVER!
Posted by MoonRabbit (Member # 3652) on :
I went to an OSC book signing a little over a year ago, and I asked him why he picked the "tracing lines" thing for Qing-jao's OCD ritual in Xenocide.
I asked, because this is exactly what I used to do as a kid, compulsively, for hours on end. I would walk from one end of a pew (I did this mostly in church) to the other, back and forth, with my face an inch away. I just never knew it was OCD until I started reading Xenocide.
His response? "Because that's what I used to do."
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Well, that's kind of cool that you have the same compulsion as OSC. That is, if you have to have one at all. I wonder why it is that there are certain compulsions that are common: checking things to make sure they're locked/off/whatever, handwashing, counting...
It seems as though many people have at least one obesssive/compulsive behavior, especially in childhood. Did you get over your tendency to follow lines, MoonRabbit? Any particular reason why?
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Has anyone read The Pleasure of My Company by Steve Martin?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Anal Retentiveness is another label for OCD. It just manifests itself in a more specific way. And I think it's pretty safe to say that the best accountants and lawyers are probably OCD. It's just that they've found a positive way to let those tendencies out. But I would also say that OCD, in these cases, are fairly mild.
I speak from personal experience. Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Transactional lawyers may have OCD, but litigators are just sociopaths. Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
quote: My wife unfolds all the laundry I fold, even though it fits my way too..becasue it itsn't done "right" my way.
She can't help it, she HAS to do it, even though it drives me batty.
I do this too. I have to make a conscious effort not to, but usually I can't resist. The way it goes in the drawer matters, too. However, I wouldn't consider myself OCD.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Now what would suck is if both members of a couple felt this way.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Sometimes, just before we fall asleep, even when I know he's done it, I ask Bill if he's sure all the doors are locked.
He *has* to go and check.
In the summer I ask about the windows. When I've cooked dinner, I ask about the oven.
I also like to rearrange the candles on the coffee table to see how long it takes them to get back to their original positions. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
So ... how long is it?
Hobbes Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
Generally less than 48 hours. Oh, and the flag on the mailbox must *always* be up or down. The inbetween position the mailman leaves it in is not acceptable. This means that if I bring the mail in when I get home, Bill will go out later and put the flag the rest of the way down.
We were watching that Things I Hate About You show and decided that I would win the title of least annoying because I could manage to not be a bitch for 2 weeks of filming, but he couldn't ever not fix the flag.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
My mom is OCD, but she is not compulsive neat. In fact, she's quite a sloppy housekeeper. But she is very compulsive with the handwashing-thing. And with obsessions about germs, etc. So go figure.
She also won't throw anything away. I have to pretty much sneak the trash out to the bin, or go through the cupboards and taken out all the empty bottles of things we have used up but she keeps putting them back in the cupboard even though they are empty.
With her, all electrical things are unplugged if we aren't home (except the fridge) "to prevent fires". It gets real annoying constantly re-setting the VCR and clocks. But I've learned to live with her compulsions. She is just compulsively paranoid that something bad it going to happen all the time.
I wonder why OCD is so common?
Farmgirl
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'm with Bill on the flag, things should be in full positions, not in between. Thosse goes double for doors, "almost closed" is code for "ticking Hobbes off".
Hobbes Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Engineers are pretty OCD too. I think the general trait of having habitual practices is extremely adaptive. I've observed it closely in cats. They are very OCD compared to humans. They groom compulsively, for instance, and occasionally will start licking at some spot for no apparent reason and eventually make a huge inflamed bald place there.
I'm reminded of instinctual behavior in animals. Is it the sphex wasp that will drag its victim to its burrow, go inside to check that all is well, and then come back to bring the victim in? If you move the victim a short distance from the burrow entrance while she is inside checking, she will again drag the victim to the burrow, and go inside to check that all is well. However many times you repeat this, she continues to check that all is well instead of pulling the darn thing straight on in. Our brains are an amalgam of all the successful tricks and strategies that have worked for 3 billion years of evolution. I think OCD is a slight malfunction of the human version of sphexwaspish instinct.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
OCD is a disorder, make no mistake about it. It's not just being anal-retentive, although that's pretty darn annoying, too; it's being so obsessed about something minor that it winds up being crippling.
People who genuinely suffer from OCD -- even mild OCD -- generally don't enjoy it, although they often try to rationalize it or laugh it off. In people with even moderate cases, life can turn into a series of unwanted tasks; visits to friends can suddenly morph into the opportunity to do chores.
I've got a few quirks myself: if I put some paper down on a table or flat surface, for example, the pages all have to be lined up parallel to the nearest edge or it looks "messy." And I have irritated Christy by, in the middle of something else, breaking off to go straighten a brochure that she just tossed onto the counter. I cannot -- cannot -- cook in a house with dirt, stains, or grease on a stove. And so on.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:visits to friends can suddenly morph into the opportunity to do chores
*feels a little naked
Tatiana, that is such neat info about the wasp. Great story.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
*invites all of y'all over anytime* Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Sorry, I decided to take a break yesterday- didn't want to get embroiled in a snark war. Some people have disabling OCD, of that I have no doubt. In fact, it sounds like you have the same reaction I had when there was a similar discussion on Autism a while back. But I do have a specific reason for now labeling OC as a tendency and not a disorder (for me, I don't know what others' symptom levels are).
The other night I was talking with my oldest about autism. The unfortunate fact that symptoms commonly emerge at about 18 months of age came out. This is particularly unfortunate because that is the age of our baby right now, and the oldest suffers considerable anxiety. (OCD is actually a subclass of Anxiety Disorder, along with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder, and some others.) My niece has autism, and I am of the opinion that there is genetic vulnerability in our family + environmental stresses caused it.
So I'm trying to assure this child that I don't think the baby is at risk, and describing how my family has OCD genes and my brother-in-law has severe ADD. The news that my whole family has obsessive compulsive disorder now has to be explained. I am quick to bring up that Obsessive Compulsiveness is probably why we have a lot of scientists, mathemeticians, and athletes in our family. I do have a brother who is borderline autistic, but he hasn't had any therapy directed at that problem.
In the past I have thought of OCD as being a low-seratonin syndrome. But then it occurs to me that perhaps instead of a low supply of neurotransmitters, we instead have a high demand. That our brains are consuming more neurotransmitters than are readily available. That's pretty much the substance of my thought that we aren't deficient so much as different.
I'm thinking, but not certain, that ADD is about a dopamine imbalance. But I don't really know that much about ADD.
Now it's not necessarily that I think I have this big seratonin sucking brain. It could be that I crave this Neurotransmitter (which is principally an inhibitory NT) because I need it to suppress past trauma. Whatever the causes of needing more seratonin or not having enough, there are behaviors that go with trying to get it:
Cheap ways that make things worse in the long run (my list, I'm not a professional): -Compulsive eating, particularly of simple carbs. -Ticks and repetitive behaviors (for me, popping my knuckles, picking at hair or skin). -Defending myself in an argument in a buttheaded way (HELLO, Hatrack!) -irrational fears, imagining horrible deaths (why I don't read Stephen King) -sleep deprivation (releases extra energy)
Good ways to increase the supply -Eating whole foods, including complex carbs. -Doing something repetitive but productive, like chores -Connecting with people I enjoy on Hatrack -facing my fears and dispelling them with reason, imagining good things -getting enough sleep on a regular basis -otherwise reducing my stress by avoiding fights, meditating, not watching TV news.
A really good book on this is The Schwarzbein Principle II. edit: I am grateful my symptom levels are such that lifestyle choices can make a difference for me. Those who need medication or are beyond even that benefit have my compassion. There are some things I feel I just "can't" do sometimes, like calling people on the phone. Usually when I notice things like this, I realize I'm having symptoms again (the death fears are another warning light) and I can have a look at my lifestyle choices again.
[ October 20, 2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
I don't step on cracks in the sidewalk or put my feet in line with seams in walls. I'd say I have a fairly normal level of compulsiveness about things, but I don't have a disorder.
It becomes a disorder when it interferes with your normal life, when things you should be doing are interrupted by your compulsive behavior. At least that's the definition from the NAMI class I took.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Before germ theory was invented, compulsiveness had a definite survival value. Though I cringe when I see ads that play one people's OCD. "Your cleaner only kills 97% of germs!" for instance.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
pooka, there's a messload of insight in your long post.
*impressed
Your lists are helpful in thinking through my own behaviors. Thanks.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There is actually a therapeutic theory called "Social rhythm" that encompasses reducing stress. If applied correctly, it works better than medication. Research has already demonstrated that exercise is as effective as medication. All this applies to depression as well. Though when I am depressed it is really hard to implement social rhythm, for obvious reasons.
Did I somehow leave moderate exercise off my list?
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
But "as effective as medication" for mild to moderate cases of depression, yes? In severe cases, I think that medication is still always recommended. [there isn't much to do with a catatonic state but medicate] But I've been a bit out of the loop for a little while.
[ October 20, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
There was an interesting study with four cohorts: Medication with therapy, Social rhythm with therapy, and then two cohorts that switched from one to the other after several weeks. All social rhythm worked best, social rhythm to med and all medication were close. But the group who started on meds and tried to switch to social rhythm was pretty much an abysmal failure. So very mixed results.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
hmm wonder if the seretonin imbalances also contribute to constant feelings of sleep deprivation.
I definitely have some OCD tendencies. They come out the most when I'm cleaning. I get focused on a little task that has to be perfect, and then everything else is still falling apart around me. Even though I *know* there is a bigger picture and this isn't the most efficient thing I could be doing I still *have* to do it. So to avoid them I just don't clean at all!
AJ
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Yeah Sara, in severe cases (i.e. those pretty much requiring hospitalization) the only stuff that seems to work are biologically based (i.e. drugs, ECT, Insulin Shock Therapy, etc. although I'm not too sure about the efficacy of that last one.) However, such severe depression makes up a minority of cases, especially since (if my two year old information is correct) the rates of non-severe depression are increasing much faster than the rates of severe depression.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I think drugs are great for people who need them, if they are provided with therapy. I'll vent again on GPs who prescribe anti-depressants. But this is knowing that the dominant HMO locally has ordered its doctors to spend a maximum of 7 minutes with each patient. My brother-in-law (not the ADD guy) is a Family practitioner.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
That makes sense. I'd forgotten about ECT, too, and I confess to total ignorance of IST.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Pooka, thanks for elaborating on that; it was a fascinating post.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Back to the original question about the definition of a disorder: like (I think) all "disorders" in the DSM-IV, by definition the characteristic has to interfere in major ways with leading a normal life. If it doesn't, then you cannot be defined as having a disorder.
quote:C. The obsessions or compulsions cause marked distress, are time consuming (take more than 1 hour a day), or significantly interfere with the person's normal routine, occupational (or academic) functioning, or usual social activities or relationships.
Another diagnostic criterion that seems consistent throughout the DSM is that the characteristic cannot be secondary to an organic (basic medical) cause, such as depression secondary to hypothyroidism. The diagnosis cannot be made unless the underlying organic causes have been ruled out or successfully treated first. Otherwise, the diagnosis of a "psychiatric disorder" cannot be made.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:There was an interesting study with four cohorts: Medication with therapy, Social rhythm with therapy, and then two cohorts that switched from one to the other after several weeks. All social rhythm worked best, social rhythm to med and all medication were close. But the group who started on meds and tried to switch to social rhythm was pretty much an abysmal failure. So very mixed results.
I'm not sure that I'd call the "medication and therapy" group a real test of therapy, though, as they specifically refrained from any counselling. "Support and empathy are provided, but specific techniques for self-management of these symptoms are not discussed." (from page 1168 on the PDF file, which may be blocked for non-subscribers)
I wonder if they would have found the same difference if they had compared to a more traditional therapy in conjunction with the medication?
For unipolar depression, I'm still finding that medication + standard talking therapy (especially cognitive-behavioral approach) is the gold standard. However, I haven't the time to dig thoroughly right now. I'm sure there is a good review article out there somewhere, though. I would really like to know if medication (with cognitive-behavioral therapy or other nonpharmacological interventions) has been shown to be less effective than a particular purely non-pharmacological approach. That would be fascinating and really cool.
[ October 20, 2004, 12:23 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Having thoughts I don't like is my main symptom. A common one is "Is this person thinking about sex with me while I'm talking to them? Because I'm sort of thinking about sex, not that I want to, with them, but why am I thinking about it?" And the person is not, say, Hugh Jackman or my husband. So is everyone now thinking about sex? Good.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Yep. It's the combination of you and my suede knee-high boots.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
:snort:
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I had some OCD-like tendencies when I was a kid...I especially had a fixation on symmetry and even numbers. I would always count stairs when I was going up or down, even if it was a staircase I'd been on hundreds of times and already knew exactly how many stairs there were. I'd get a bit annoyed if it was an odd number, because that meant one of my feet had taken more steps than the other. And when I ate a candy such as M&Ms or Skittles, I had to eat two at a time, of the same color, and chew one on each side of my mouth. Stuff like that.
I also would occasionally pick at my skin, particularly on the scalp, until it was covered with scabs, which I'd also pick at (we need a grossed-out smiley). I no longer do any of that stuff as an adult, but I've found that when I'm under a lot of stress I'll pull my hair out, sometimes enough that I give myself a smallish bald spot. I've gotten very good with headbands and comb-overs, though I haven't been *that* stressed since the summer of 2003...still regrowing from that one though.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Um, yeah I was content to leave it at "picking at skin" but that's basically what I'm talking about. But I was cursed with really clear skin. My sister with the worst acne is now an M.D./Ph.D.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
CURSED with really clear skin?!
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I havve to go to work, but I find this conversation to be VERY interesting.
Tom, I wasn't trying to say that OCD isn't a disorder or that it doesn't adversly affect people who have it, particularily the people who have moderate to severe symptoms.
I was saying that there are similarlties between some of those behaviors and OCD, and that a lot of sucessful people have used their compulsive attention to detail as a plus instead of a minus in their lives. They have found a way to adapt to their uncontrollable urges, in some cases.
Anal Retentive behavior is one thing, OCD is another....but they can be related, IMO. One is simply much, much worse than the other.
I have to go.... damn you Hatrack!
Kwea
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
(They have four inch heels, pooka. *bats eyelashes at you, a'la the katharina technique)
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Fewer seratonin hits from picking my skin. Though I did have the knuckle popping. Mainly, I would actually sit around feeling depressed while she would get backaches and get on with her life. P.S. What is the general impression generated by knuckle popping? I was actually turned onto it by my 4th grade music teacher telling us not to do it. I was just thinking of that chic in X2 and wondering- is it sexy or just creepy? Again, my what-is-sexy-o-meter is, predictably, maladjusted.
P.P.S. Sara, now you're just trying to taunt me into getting into the OOC thread for saying "I'd want to have sex with you even if you were wearing a Frodo halloween costume."
[ October 20, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: pooka ]
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:*bats eyelashes at you, a'la the katharina technique
Don't they sell those sucky mask/plastic bag get ups anymore?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It seems to me that just about every personality trait you can think of, if allowed to mushroom out of proportion to one's other traits, functions as a disorder. Everything in moderation and all that. I'm reminded of cancer, somehow. Something goes wrong in cells that previously played a productive role in an organism, and grow unchecked until they have a deleterious effect on the organism as a whole. If you think about it though, in a way those cells are doing a marvelous job--they're hardy, efficient and all that. It's even conceivable, as in Octavia Butler's Xenogenesis trilogy, that the mutability and hardiness of cancer could at some point be harnessed. I think I'm getting off the subject though.
What I was saying was that there are any number of traits that, when balanced with other traits, can have a powerful adaptive influence on the individual that possesses them, but when unchecked can be damaging. I was recently reading something at NewScientist.com that was talking about a theory that tendencies toward creativity are related to schitzophrenia in this way, and in a recent paper issue of New Scientist there was a fairly lengthy article that discussed the adaptive value of sociopathic tendencies, as long as they are possessed only in moderation.
I hadn't thought about OCD in that light, but it makes sense. I'm glad you made that comment in the other thread pooka--I've really been enjoying your responses (and everyone else's too, of course).
[ October 20, 2004, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
That is exactly what I mean, Noemon. There are beginning to be studies about how the adult brain continues growing and developing, but pointless growth is otherwise known as cancer.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
I have to make a conscious effort not to, but usually I can't resist. The way it goes in the drawer matters, too.![[Evil Laugh]](graemlins/evillaugh.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)