I'm just hazing you for all the times you come into a religious thread and proclaim your atheism, Paul. It was pointed at you.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Baseball's a pretty boring game. You must be a loser for liking it.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Funny... I don't think I've ever done that except to offer my opinion, nor do I think I've come into a religious thread and been disrespectful of religious people (intentionally... its always possible it happens unintentionally). And I KNOW I haven't done it at all in over a year. And I KNOW I've never told religious people to get a life.
[This post has been edited at the request of multiple Hatrackers to delete the childish name-calling.]
[ October 29, 2004, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Suneun (Member # 3247) on :
pooka, trying to make a point by hurting someone (or trying to hurt someone) is very disrespectful and spiteful.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Well maybe some people should grow a pair.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Yeah, I'll have to try my vengeance cold next time. It sucks lukewarm.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I read the pages...don't get any of it. Where's the conflict? Just seems to be "Win for Dad" over and over again.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Thats sorta the point, Phanto. The red sox are more then "just a game" to Red Sox fans. Its a part of who we are, and that goes back to our fathers, and our grandfathers, and in many cases, our great-grandfather's.
Pooka- Point out to me where I did anything comprable to completely dismissing something of central significance of your life, as if its not worth your time to be interested in it.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
I told people who are senitmental about baseball to get a life in a different thread. It was a bad-mannered joke at how people often come into a thread about a subject they already know they hate and proceed to be a dog in the manger. Anyway, I guess it's good that I'm going to be mostly gone for a month. :kickself:
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
When have I "Crapped in the manger?"
When I come into a religious thread, which incidentally isn't a topic I "hate," I have a specific point to make, and I try not to crap all over people who have faith. I may strongly disagree with certain viewpoints, but that doesn't mean I disrespect religious people.
You disrespected red sox fans.
Posted by pooka (Member # 5003) on :
Actually, I disrespect all sports fans. Just to keep it accurate. And a dog in the manger doesn't deliberately crap in it, he just spoils it by being who he is. (she, whatever). Is it not the natural course of things at Hatrack that every thread that celebrates something has a dissenter?
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
So, the remark about getting a life, which you claimed was specifically directed at me, is an attempt to say that atheists shouldn't talk in religious threads. I see.
Glad you're leaving.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I'm not.
Hobbes Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm not either. Hatrack would be much the poorer without pooka's completely random non sequiturs. Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Grow up. Both of you...please...
Different things mean different things to different people.
It wasn't a cool comment in the other thread, but it didn't deserve this thread, Paul. I understand how much this means to you, but it is unreasonable to expect it to mean the same thing to others that is does to you.
I sort of chuckled at the comment myself, because I knew you didn't care what anyone else thought, you loved baseball, and that is all that matters.
But this is going too far....both of you.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think it was meant as disrespectfully as you took it, Paul. I tell people to get a life sometimes, and I joke to my friends that we all need to get a life outside of playing pool...I am semi-serious as I say it, but if any of them freaked out on me the way you did on Pooka this thread I wouldn't care what they thought either, and would be pretty damn defensive about it too.
I think you could have made the point far better some other way.
That being said....
Go Sox!
Kwea
[ October 28, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Paul, you wrote a beautiful post in the Boston thread and Pooka was a bit insensitive for mocking it.
But does she really deserve this much animosity?
What would Hatrack be if we were not allowed to mock the passionate beliefs people held about baseball, religion, abortion, homosexuality, etc?
From Paul's link:
quote:Not long after the final out, I suddenly remembered the elderly man I ran across during a power walk around Newton following Game Six of the 1986 World Series. When he saw me through the early morning mist, utterly dejected, helpless, in the throws of abject pathos, he stopped me and whispered, “Son, this is the darkest day in this town since Jack Kennedy was shot.”
He would assuredly agree with me now that this is the happiest day in this town since V.E. Day.
I also thought of my old neighbor, Mr. Jim Lakis, a passionate Red Sox fan for more than fifty years. If you walked by Mr. Lakis’s house the day after Game Six back in ’86, you would have observed a shattered television in the trash, a baseball bat lodged right through the screen. When I ran across Mrs. Lakis three weeks later at Star Market, she burst into tears. “We will never see it, will we, Shaunie” she cried.
Don't get a life but do get some perspective.
[ October 28, 2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:Thanks for proving to me you're a bitch.
quote:Glad you're leaving.
Hatrack is a less beautiful place now.
[ October 28, 2004, 10:39 PM: Message edited by: mr_porteiro_head ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It will recover, it always does....but I hope she will be back before too long. I think she said elswhere she was going away for 3 weeks anyway...
Kwea
[ October 28, 2004, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Paul, Your childish behavior is making pooka's point better than she ever could have. Dude, it's friggin' baseball. It's a game.
So she said that baseball fans need to get a life. Your reaction is actually illustrating this point. It can be important to you without you needing to throw a tantrum to "protect" it.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
woah, that is a bit too much as well, Mr.....
The thing is, everyone has something that maters to them, and if that is good enough for them, so be it.
I agree he overreacted, but he does have a life, and baseball is a huge part of it.
It isn't really about sports, man, it's about communication and sensitivity..or lack of it.
Kwea
Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
I just don't get sports fans. It's like they think sports are somehow important or something.
Sure Remember The Titans was an okay movie. But all they did was win a bunch of GAMES, for heaven's sake!
Call me when they do something important, like curing cancer, or making sure that every kid every born is loved and doesn't get the crap beat out of him by some beer-swilling sports fan.
Really, get a life. Seriously.
[ October 28, 2004, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Sweet William ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Oh brother. That lunar eclipse must have done something to people, cause everyone is getting seriously... over intense and abrasive and nasty to everyone else around them.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
And I don't get people who think religion is important... but I've never been as disrespectful of pooka or any religious people here, as pooka was to red sox fans in the other thread. I posted that first link because it would give an idea of how important the red sox are to our LIVES. Its a social bonding, community building, part of our lives, and its intimately tied with family relationships.
She then told me that it was a response to my "crapping" on religious threads. Well, if I'd DONE anything as disrespectful as what she did, then maybe I'm being childish, but I haven't... so I think I, rightly, feel insulted by that.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Kwea, Ehh...I stand by what I said. But then, I'm not thinking that the get a life thing was meant to say that Paul or baseball fans don't actually have a life, but that they may have some perspective problems. And I think Paul's response has shown that this description fits him.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Paul, Fine. You feel insulted (and I really don't agree as to the depth of the insult). That doesn't mean you stop acting like an adult.
[ October 29, 2004, 12:02 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Squicky- Get a life. Drop the social sciences. They aren't real sciences and won't ever actually accomplish anything. Stop reading new studies, they aren't curing cancer of ending the war in iraq. Do something worthwhile with your life.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
I like acting like a child, sometimes squicky. Its cathartic, and healthier for me then my previous attitude, which is when someone cuts me deep to act like an adult. It didn't work for me. Acting like a child works much better. I feel better afterwards, instead of like killing something.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
See, and yet I'm remarkably calm. If you ever come around to regret that, don't worry, you're already forgiven.
edit: Paul, see a big part of the problem is that you think pooka cut you deeply. That's just silly. It's words on a bulletin board (and relatively mild ones at that). It's not like she ran over your dog or something.
Catharsis to get rid of aggression also isn't a particularly effective method. It might be better than the ruminating on your perceived wrong that you did before, but that's not saying much.
Seriously, give letting it go a try, especially for something as minor as this. Don't let your anger control you. You'll live longer.
[ October 29, 2004, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Nope, I'm not regretting it. I'm simply pointing out that people put greater importance on different things. Pooka tried to make a point about me "Crapping" over religious threads, by crapping over a baseball thread... but STILL hasn't pointed out where I did that, other then by being an atheist posting in a thread about religion. The red sox are at least as important to me as pooka's religion is to her. So she's trying to make a point about something I don't do, by crapping on something thats very much a part of who I am. Because thats her attitude, I have no use for her, and I'm not ashamed to say that, in a manner that you consider "childish."
[This post has been edited to get rid of offensive language. The rest of the post has been allowed to stand despite its contentious nature, but the moderators are NOT amused. By the way, Mr. Goldner, you SHOULDN'T be "perfectly okay" with what you've done in this thread.]
[ October 29, 2004, 08:43 AM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Squicky you know he's doing it to prove a point, its much easier not to take it to heart when you know someone doesn't really mean it.
Edit: or maybe he's coming to mean it. Aye aye aye, everyone is so pissed off today, whats with that?
[ October 29, 2004, 12:14 AM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
"Seriously, give letting it go a try, especially for something as minor as this. Don't let your anger control you. You'll live longer."
I did that before. For 18 years. Didn't work too much other then helping me get to a point where I wanted to kill myself. Like I said, this works better.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Paul, Yeah, it doesn't sound to me like you're describing 18 years of forgiving. It does sound a lot more like you were passive but ruminating.
It sounds like a total fluff piece, but Everett Worthington's book Five Steps to Forgiveness: The Art and Science of Forgiving is actually really good. He's made great strides towards improving the mental and physical health of people who have suffered grave wrongs, such as havinga loved ones murdered. His technique isn't jsut the moral thing to do, it actually seems to be one of the better ways of dealing that we've come up with.
Of course, there's always the old standard of Albert Ellis's How to Control Your Anger Before It Controls You. Old Albert had a big brain on him.
You're a smart guy. Give one of them a try. It may be a really good thing for you.
Or you could continue cursing at me. Your choice really.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
Squick, I find it extremely annoying when people insist they know the 'right way to take things,' or otherwise condescend on such topics. I'm not you. Paul's not you. You're not Paul, and you're not me. Humans are complex creatures with emotions, memories, and opinions.
When you, or anyone, insists a person is being "too sensitive" or letting interests become too much a part of them, you're judging me from your own perspective. And there's no reason your perspective is any better than my own.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Paul, I understand (a little) that this means a lot to you, but with every insult you are proving me wrong, and him right.
Enough, please..for your sake as well as ours.
Kwea
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I'm probably a bit late on this, but who cares.
quote: I posted that first link because it would give an idea of how important the red sox are to our LIVES. Its a social bonding, community building, part of our lives, and its intimately tied with family relationships.
Paul, I come from a rural Southern town, so I see part of your point. The entire town immerses itself in High School football. Didn't matter how bad our team was, loyal fans (not necessarily parents or relatives of players) would come sit in the stands and watch our little podunk team play.
When 911 happened, the band planned a special pre-game show for the upcoming home game. Our hotshot french horn player would give a stunning rendition of "Amazing Grace" and the flagline (including me) would hold American flags at attention.
My dad didn't want me to go to this game. He didn't think it was appropriate for such an event to take place, and he thought the schools were in the wrong to hold the game in the first place. He put his foot down, and I put my foot down, and I ended up going to the game without him.
What happened that night allowed all those loyal fans to really grieve and contemplate what happened three days earlier. It was a catharsis. What it my style of grieving? Absolutely not. Was it any less effective or appropriate than sitting by oneself or with one's family? Absolutely not.
I say this in the hopes that I can express how I understand your viewpoint.
However...
Baseball is a game. It's one of those things that, when it comes right down to it, is expendable. There are more important things. Like one's family, friends, personal honor, and the feelings of another living, breathing human being. If baseball were to disappear from the face of the planet, those things would still remain.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Yes, they would... but life would be less worth living.
Baseball, for me, and the REd Sox in particular, are as close to religion as it really gets. If I walked into a thread about mormonism, and said "get a life" and then when someone posted a link that might offer insight into why that comment was totally innapropriate and hurtful, said that the "Get a life" was to prove a point about how the other person had been disrespectful about baseball, and then couldn't show that the other person had indeed been disrespectful, NO ONE on this board would be protesting that people yelling at me were acting "childish."
Maybe I'm overreacting... or maybe you aren't in my shoes.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
dabbler, Yeah, in this case, there is. For one thing, Paul has been acting immaturely (which I guess is at least marginally a subjective judgement) and violating the standards of this site (which is an objective thing).
For the other, the two books I recommended are the products of a great many years of research by two very smart people, who have shown that their methods actually work pretty well. They tell me things like what Paul are going are not good for him. I tell Paul. He can do whatever he wants. Maybe that's being condescending. If it is, I'm ok with that.
Although, if you think telling people not to curse other people out is really such an imposition of my values, I think I may have a very different view of manners and maturity than you do.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Or perhaps both, Paul.
Joke or not, it was too much, but so was your reaction to it. IMO, anyway.
How long have you been a Sox fan? My wife has been rooting for the for her whole life, and her mother too.
Kwea
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
You aren't over reacting Paul. The first comment was in joke, but the following ones almost merit your reaction. However, you both got a bit too rude and nasty to each other. I think you're right to feel insulted as you do, but you needn't get quite that nasty about it, and I think thats what a lot of other poeple are trying to say. Then again, some of them are being just as insulting or more than Pooka... whats up with people on this board tonight? My impression has generally been one that people are understanding and forgiving of each other... but thats certainly not been the case tonight...
Edit: and Paul, she did apologize a while back... in the Red Socks thread, I dunno whether or not you saw it.
[ October 29, 2004, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: It's words on a bulletin board (and relatively mild ones at that). It's not like she ran over your dog or something.
Squick, you cut me out because of words on a bulletin board. And mine weren't even intended to wound.
Just for the record.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Paul, If they told you to F off and it became a thing, yes I would be telling them that they were acting childishly. And they would be.
In fact, I'm reasonably sure I've done that at least once of twice, though not necessarily with someone responding to you.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
Squick, my concern was with your last paragraph about baseball, not the cursing. It's likely wrong for Paul to curse on hatrack. I'm not getting into that argument.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Ralphie, I cut you out because you and I have very different ideas about what respect means. Your words didn't hurt me. They showed that you didn't respect me in the way that I understood it and that I was relying on, and that hurt.
[ October 29, 2004, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I would say that the comparison between Religion and The Red Sox is not a very good one. True the Red Sox are very important to you and to your community, but they do not affect salvation.
For me music plays a huge role in my life. It takes up most of my thoughts and time, but I realize not everyone can appreciate it the way I do. I do not blame you for being annoyed by Pooka's comment, but not everyone can appreciate the Red Sox the way you do.
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
If such melodrama were the secret to staying perpetually young would eternal youth be worth it?
Hmm...
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
No, they can't... but I can't appreciate religion like our religious members can. Does that give me the right to be disrespectful of it? No, it doesn't... in fact, I am very careful to try to respect people who are religious, and their religion, BECAUSE I don't share in the appreciation.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: I cut you out because you and I have very different ideas about what respect means. Your words didn't hurt me. They showed that you didn't respect me in the way that I understood it and that I was relying on, and that hurt.
I guess I'm not smart enough to see the difference between that and what happened here.
edit: For what it's worth, that's all right. I'm not really looking for an explanation of previous events. All of us act like kids sometimes, and while it's nice when people come along and remind us to act like adults, it's also nice when they acknowledge that they, too, have had their moments. Even if they profess to be calm as still water.
[ October 29, 2004, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
quote:I would say that the comparison between Religion and The Red Sox is not a very good one. True the Red Sox are very important to you and to your community, but they do not affect salvation.
Are you really trying to convince an atheist to look at things in terms of relativity to salvation? Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
For many, as Paul has said, the Sox are a religion or very close to it.
And not all religions have to do with salvation.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
But all melodrama has to do with wanting attention.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
And?
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
quote: Are you really trying to convince an atheist to look at things in terms of relativity to salvation?
I am not very sure about religion myself. But I can see that adding eternity to a situation changes a lot.
I know that not all religions involve salvation, but Christianity does and that is the most common religion here in the U.S.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
So the comparison is negated because of one religion?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I guesss to me it come down to not sweating the small stuff.
I am NOT saying basebal is small stuff to Paul...it obviously means a great deal to him. That is neither here nor there, as is my opinion on this...
But the insult, which was probably meant at leat half tongue-in-cheek, is small stuff, since it doesn't come from anyone who matters to him, really. Pooka and Paul have obviously had a problem in the past (at leat it seems to me that way) so why did her comment hurt so much? That is the real question here....
She did apoligize, and rather quickly, but when people react so much stonger to something like that than you ecpect it is easy to get defensive, and that is what happened...or how it looked to me.
Things got really personal, real quick, and here we are, hours later, still doing it.
Paul, I respect that way you feel about baseball, even though it seems over the top to me. I am the same way about pool, of I was until I got married, and my family never understood why I love it so much. To me it was the only thing I was still any good at, and all my friends were pool friends, so that is what I did...I played pool 4-5 nights a week, for hours at a time.
But I would hope that I would react better than you did if someone was to question me about it, or mock me for palying so much. I would probably get pissed, but I would offer to play them for money, or just continue playing.
If I started swearing at them, and berating them back, I would be playing into their hands really. Why in the world would I care what they thought? They weren't players....
Baseball may be your "salvation", but it isn't everyones, so some people just won't get it...ever.
BTW, everyone in Boston...I went to the LOTR exibit, and as you said it was great.
Paul, my friend Crystal, was at game 1 of the WS, as she won the redsox.com contest...I have some pics of her with some of the team members. I will send you them if you want, they are pretty cool I hear. She got to sit with Bud Selig and Dennis Eckersly..how cool was that?
Kwea
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Well, if you want to do this, I don't really think Paul had any real trust in or emotional involvement with pooka. Also, the direspect shown by pooka's comment and subsequent reactions (and yeah, I think she was a little over the line. Pooka's always had a small vindictive streak, but it generally came out in obscure ways), didn't destroy the basis of their relationship. And, I didn't respond by cursing you out or attacking you. I don't even really think I got that angry. My primary response was sadness. (I just got that, I think. You thought I was angry with you.)
Ralphie, you know how important it is for performers to have people who know them, who are concerned about knowing them. I've got plenty of people who like me because I'm entertaining. I meet more of them every time I go out. It's still rare to find people who actually want and see more of me than the next joke or interesting thought. I thought you were one of them. Your comments and then your responses showed me that you weren't. Nobody's fault, really, we just didn't see things the same, but it sure was a shame.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:So the comparison is negated because of one religion?
`Round these parts it is, methinks.
[ October 29, 2004, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: Jutsa Notha Name ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
But all of Paul's examples in this thread have been Christian religions, which sort of points to Christianity being the religion he's coming the Red Sox to.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
To take this to a meta topic... <Grin> now that I started thinking about it, sports probably have taken the social place of religion in a large segment of the US society.
Sports in some ways are a lot less complicated of a belief system because they only demand loyalty and possibly superstition and don't quibble with trying to improve your morality or other forms of behavior with or without eternity.
AJ
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
quote: So the comparison is negated because of one religion?
No, but there are other religions that believe in life after death, and Blacwolve summed up the rest for me.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
Paul referenced religion, not specifically Christianity.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
toldja
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
And used Christianity as an example more than once. It was a natural comparison for Allegra to make is most of what I'm saying, there's no need to jump on her about it.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
I'm not jumping on her about it, jeez. Paul said religion, over and over.
Christianity is not the only religion.
quote: Its a social bonding, community building, part of our lives, and its intimately tied with family relationships.
is not only found in christianity.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: Christianity is not the only religion.
You know, I was aware of this, isn't that an amazing thing?
quote:If I walked into a thread about mormonism, and said "get a life"...
Also, he gives multiple other examples about "religious threads." Since over half religious threads on hatrack are Christian, it's very natural to make the connection with Christianity. Maybe not completely factually accurate, but natural.
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
From my understanding of some of the links Rivka has shown me, Jews believe in a judgment day.
Hindus believe in reincarnation.
Ancient Egyptians believed in an afterlife as well.
There are more.
I am not saying that Christianity in the most important religion, but a majority of the people in the US know the most about Christianity so it is a point of reference.
Mack: All of those things you listed can be found in other parts of life, but with many religions it goes beyond that in many ways.
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
As long as it isn't accuracy that's intended, I'm fine with it then.
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Wow. Didn't know people could get ticked off so easy...Maybe I need to start another "ticked off" thread Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
That'd tick me off! --I--
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
Hey, Squick. I hope you're still using the yahoo addy, cause I just sent you an e-mail.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
This is all really weird.
I guess people shouldn't tease me about my sci-fi obsession...
[ October 29, 2004, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
So, is this the casualty from the winning the World Series that was feared in girl/riot gear thread?
---
Too tacky?
-------
Paul, baseball isn't actually affected either by pooka's comment or your defense of it. You're hitting back for your own pride. You're not defending baseball; you're defending yourself. Baseball doesn't care.
Posted by Sopwith (Member # 4640) on :
Honestly, Paul put up a post explaining why the Red Sox World Series win meant so much to him, how big of an affect it had on his life. He took a moment to share with us one of his happiest days.
That sharing happens a lot here at Hatrack. And very often we celebrate right along with each other, even when something that was life-changing for them might seem somewhat trivial to us individually.
We do it because we should be happy that our friends are happy. We do it because of respect. And we do it because others here have done it for us.
Sadly, it is often also a tradition for someone to walk in and poke a bit of fun at that person. Sometimes it is taken lightly, sometimes it's not.
I remember reading Paul's original post and saying to myself, "Wow, this really meant a lot to him" and I thought about how Boston had tied itself up in this history and suffered through year after year under the "Curse."
Whether the "Curse" was real or not in truth, it was legend to folks in Boston. And legends, sometimes, are what we define our societies by. Boston fans saw a legendary curse lifted, we should enjoy their cheers.
Sure, to the outside observer, Boston fans' waiting for this day was as pointless as waiting for Godot. But just the other night, Godot finally showed up for the folks in Boston.
Pooka's comment, when I read it in the thread, was pointedly telling someone that this phase in their life was pointless, and that people had wasted entire lifetimes believing in the curse and the eventual lifting of it. She didn't come in there to josh with a friend, she came to kick someone in the stomach while they were celebrating something that was important to them.
Sadly, that happens now and then here. Folks wait to settle an old score.
Paul probably shouldn't have started this thread, but it was done because he was wounded deeply. He wasn't kicked when he was down, he was kicked while he was up, possibly up as much as he had ever been. And oftentimes, that's the unkindest cut.
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Paul, baseball isn't actually affected either by pooka's comment or your defense of it. You're hitting back for your own pride. You're not defending baseball; you're defending yourself. Baseball doesn't care.
The same applies to religious insults that happen, and yet people around here feel the need to raise a ruckus when it happens to their team. *sings* I'm see some hi-po-cray-see...
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Nothing good can come of this thread.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's just as wrong when people do it in defense of religion. The Lord is more than capable of taking care of himself, and to respond nastily to insults to religion comes from pride and usually betrays the principles they are defending.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
quote: Nothing good can come of this thread.
the opposite has already come of it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:The same applies to religious insults that happen, and yet people around here feel the need to raise a ruckus when it happens to their team. *sings* I'm see some hi-po-cray-see...
Jutsa, it's easy to see hypocrisy when you a) lump people together, so you can take attribute one person's actions to another, compare the ones that conflict, and declare hypocrisy, and 2) ignore the many posts comparing not only the substantive content of Paul's complaint with his reaction to it.
Now, maybe some people have reacted just as Paul has here to an insult to their religion. And maybe some of those people are here in this thread telling Paul they shouldn't do it. But unless Kat is one of them, the comment you quoted doesn't demonstrate hypocrisy.
Nor does someone complaining about Paul's behavior who has also complained about attacks on religion constitute hypocrisy, if 1) the subtance of the complaint is about his manner for expressing his ire, and 2) this person used a different method than Paul.
And it's also possible that someone who has reacted badly to something like this in the past is reacting to lessons learned when they came to regret their reaction later, although they should say so if this is the case.
Dagonee
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
Perfect post Sopwith.
In the words of Orson Scott Card, stories are what define us as human, they are what bind our societies together. One of the most important, if not the most important, stories binding the people of Boston and the Red Sox fans around the globe is the curse. Obviously the day the curse was lifted would bring great joy and celebration to these folks. I am not a Red Sox fan, but I celebrated along with them, knowing that to folks such as Paul, this was an event generations in coming, and something to be celebrated.
I cannot say that I would be less upset than Paul if Pooka had come in after I made a genuine post about why something made me so happy and said something to the same effect. It would most likely upset me just as much.
Paul, congratulations and enjoy the celebrations this weekend.
I can also see where Pooka came from, to her its "just a game", as it is to many hatrackers, and as it is to myself. But you have to realize, to many many people this was not just a game. This was a moment to define their society. This WAS life-changing because one of the central tenets of their lives was changed, and for the good. Who are the rest of us to say that the people who feel as Paul does are too wrapped up in baseball? We wrap ourselves just as tightly in things these others may see as trivial, but we expect them to respect our feelings. Is it so terrible to expect the same in return?
Pooka, I understand your reasons for doing it. However, I see no absolute need to mock Paul's beautiful post. If he has done the same to you in the past, then I will defend you the same as I defend him now. I haven't seen it happen, but I usually miss the religious debates. I hope you come back to Hatrack though, as I and many others tremendously enjoy your posts and your presence is an asset to the community. You are a part of our story, the story that defines who and what Hatrack, and Hatrackers, are. The story would be incomplete without you here as a character.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
Oh, lay off. I wasn't talking about katharina in particular, and even she recognized that. It is, however, a reaction I've noticed in many others here on the same subject. That they weren't chided for reacting as Paul did is worth noting, IMO.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: Nothing good can come of this thread.
the opposite has already come of it.
You'd know, you Evil.
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
oh yeah, well, you're just a big meanie. you hear that. meanie!
*runs off to cry*
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
What Alcon and Sopwith said.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yes, Jutsa, and I talked about the behavior of others in my post as well.
I haven't personally seen anyone say "Glad your leaving" and call someone a "b*&^" over comments made in religious threads. If I had, I'd bet someone has chided them about it. If not, then IF people who saw it then are chiding now, they are certainly giving the appearance of hypocrisy.
Dagonee
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
I've seen catty behavior and name calling comparable to Pauls over religious discussion before here. Just because they don't say the exact same words doesn't mean the behavior is different.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Wanting someone to leave and profanity each might be enough to push this into a different category of behavior for some people.
Especially the former, as some people might feel the need to assure pooka we don't want her leaving.
Dagonee
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:oh yeah, well, you're just a big meanie. you hear that. meanie!
*runs off to cry*
Holy crap. What a sissy.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Pooka's post is not the same as some of the insulting posts I've read in religious threads.
The religious threads that turn ugly is usually about a hotly contested topic such as homosexuality or abortion. When you enter those threads you know your ideals will be attacked, mocked, and challenged. You also know Tom will write a really funny story about a giant purple panda, but that's another story.
The Boston thread was a celebration thread, not a debate thread. People were celebrating their joy and not looking for a punch in the nuts.
Pooka's post is similar to someone posting "get a life" in a thread called "Help Me Celebrate My Bar Mitzvah" or "My Daughter's Beautiful Communion."
Of couse, we never make those posts, because they'd be in bad taste. Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Especially the former, as some people might feel the need to assure pooka we don't want her leaving.
I disagree. This reeks more of melodrama on both sides of the argument, as I mentioned earlier. The argument will die down, and both will continue to hold a grudge. If they prove me wrong later, then that would be a great thing. However, typical human behavior dictates a continued hostile relationship even after the mean words and insults dies down.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I agree that's a likely possibility - I hope it is (minus the grudge part). But the presence of that element at all is enough to differentiate the two situations, which is enough to avoid being a hypocrite.
Certainly, I felt the need to assure her I didn't want her going, but I did that by telling her rather than chiding Paul.
Dagonee
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
quote: Holy crap. What a sissy.
That's it. I am so leaving. Just give me a couple hours to write my goodbye thread.
*bites thumb at scott*
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Certainly, I felt the need to assure her I didn't want her going, but I did that by telling her rather than chiding Paul.
Well, to be honest, the way you've handled this and situations of religious nature in other threads has been pretty admirable. Just so you know, I wasn't implicating you. In fact, I couldn't name one single person, because I don't really keep a score anywhere.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I thought biting one's thumb went the way of Baroque music and the Vikings. This is great, now all we need are some true, Shakespearean insults (as in higher quality than "meanie")!
Hobbes Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Do you bite your thumb at me?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Thank you. I didn't think you were talking about me, both because I hadn't posted here and have quite the ego .
This raises an interesting question of community hypocrisy - if no one person is actually hypocritical, but the actions of the community taken as a whole are, what do you call it?
Probably best to start a new thread on this.
Dagonee
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Some of us are trying to watch Scott and Celia fight here. (It's like The Clash of the Titans, except Scott is niether 600 feet tall, nor does he appear to be turning to stone).
Hobbes
[ October 29, 2004, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
No, but I weigh 600 pounds, and have a kidney stone. . . do those count as titanic properties?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I wasn't talking about katharina in particular, and even she recognized that.
I did actually think you were talking about me in particular, but since I also have an enormous ego and after two seconds of self-examination decided that the description didn't fit me, I ignored it.
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
You know why I made the comparison to religion? Because baseball is as important to me as thier religion is to the religious members of this site, many of whom post celebration threads or community threads... not because of specific characteristics that may or may not be shared between baseball and religion.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I will say Paul, even after reading your inital post in the Sox thread, I didn't realize *how* important baseball was to you, until I witnessed your reactions to pooka's comment. I read the whole thing including Pooka's post just before I left work yesterday and it all blew up, and I was shocked that it had done so because it seemed like more of the usual Hatrack banter to me. But like I said, I didn't truly understand how deeply you actually felt about it.
AJ
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
Banna, drawing also from our long conversation last night, it's because you're not the kind of person to define yourself by ideas and activities. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that I could see it so clearly for Paul because I also partly define who I am by the things that matter to me.
I completely agree with Sopwith, and it was said much more clearly than I could have. And I also agree with ApostleRadio.
quote:Who are the rest of us to say that the people who feel as Paul does are too wrapped up in baseball? We wrap ourselves just as tightly in things these others may see as trivial, but we expect them to respect our feelings.
Exactly.
There are a few different discussions going on. The one I'm most concerned with is the treatment of people who put their hearts out in a post on hatrack. And the idea that the way I live my life is stupid or wrong because I care deeply about some external object.
The other discussion is whether Paul overreacted, or reacted poorly. He did react poorly. It's not very nice to call someone names and say you're glad they're leaving. Personally, I'd apologize for losing my temper. Two wrongs don't make a right, and three wrongs certainly don't make a right. But in the same breath, I'm not going to say he overreacted. Because I'm not him, and I can't know what he feels.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Could somebody help explain something to me? This post is not meant as an attack, but I can't think of a way of saying it that couldn't be taken offensively if you want to.
I have been flabergasted at the comparison between professional sports and religion, and the support that this comparison has gotten.
I can understand somebody saying "it's just a game" or "it's just entertainment", and I think that everybody can understand why somebody could feel that way.
But I can't see the opposite happening. "It's only the meaning of life", "It's only your immortal soul", or "It's only the nature and order of the universe" are things that I can't understand somebody honestly saying.
Am I missing something, or am just extending the baseball/religion past it's breaking point, and past the point it was meant for?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
well, sir, i *do* bite my thumb.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Porter, I think you are extending it too far, but you’re also missing something. For someone who doesn’t believe in religion, religion isn’t about the meaning of life, your immortal soul, or the nature and order of the universe. It’s about social behavior, shared stories, fellowship with people who share the same values, etc. And that’s if they’re being charitable in their interpretation. There are those who think religion is about deluding yourself, trying to use the superstitions of others to gain power and influence, and other unsavory motivations. And Paul is correct to say that any of those opinions could be appropriately shared on a discussion/debate thread, but that they would be entirely inappropriate in a celebration thread.
To someone who doesn’t believe in a particular religion, it has no more intrinsic worth than any other leisure time activity.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Do you bite your thumb at us, sir?
[ October 29, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
As a huge sports fan that follows all four major sports plus World Cup Soccer, plus I used to follow the MLS before before the Miami Fusion were disbanded, plus I followed (now I'm bored with it) men's tennis, plus collegiate football, basketball, and baseball I always thought of the comparison between religion and sports to be an exaggeration. I can understand how some people can pay $10K to see, I can understand how people may cry when their team loses. I can't understand how it can be so meaningful as to affect you even when the team isn't playing. I understand the concept of getting emotionally tied to a team, but its seriously unhealthy to take it to too far of an extreme. In baseball I will always consider a successful season to be a playoff birth so to me, the "curse" was kind of funny, the Red Sox after all had won multiple WS titles prior to 1918 and had been to the series four times since. The Cubs haven't even been to the WS in forever and fans of that team say they would be happy just to get there. I personally like the Cubs fans' attitude better. Personally I just think there's a problem when someone can become hated from something they post in a sports thread, to me there's something inherently wrong with that. I can imagine someone being rude, disrespectful, or even "crossing the line" but you really need to take everything involving sports with a little levity.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
All four major sports?
Jai-lai, handball, beach volleyball, and ???
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Curling.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
nfl, you're not a "huge sports fan." You're a huge homer. There's a difference. Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
...kickboxing.
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
quote: No one could possibly understand the depths of you. But you presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine and you ripped my f'in life apart. You're an orphan right? Do you think I'd know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you?
Posted by celia60 (Member # 2039) on :
You know, Scott, I've not been really looking forward to the performance, but there's my cue and there's a question on your face.
Fortunately I have come across an answer which is go away and do not leave a trace.
(We've done Seuss and Shakespeare, why not this?)
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
See I can take that with levity. I don't consider myself a huge "homer" as opposed to a sports fan because I only stopped watching MLS because they disbanded the Fusion which made me angry, I actually watched the MLS the two years before the Fusion came to Ft. Lauderdale. I also still follow sports that my favorite team is no longer competitive in. I just follow them somewhat less because it is less exciting.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Why? Because you said so?
Not that I disagree, myself, but who the hell am I to tell someone there favorite thing isn't really that important?
I may think that, but unless they go too far with it, as I think Paul may have here, then it is none of my business what matters to them.
It may not be healthy, as Squick pointed out, but not everything I do is always healthy....and I don't really care what anyone else says about my habits, not here at least...
My bigest concern is that I like Paul, and pooka....not that I really know either if them well....but if this were to continue the way it statred then there was a possibility that someone could have been banned, and I didn't want that to happen.
I am not saying that anyone should be, but had it continued, well....
I think everyone overreacted to it, not because it is a minor issue, but because the peopson amking the comments should not have mattered to this conversation.
Pooka has been quite clear about her distain of sports, so why should any sport fan care what she posted here?
Why should pooka get worked up about what an athiest says about her religion?
Getting irritated is one thing....repetedly attacking each other was simply immature. It solved nothing, and didn't amke anyone feel any better....and turned the atmosphere here at Hatrack icky.
So.....bring on the fluff, I have had enough of the "celebration" and "debate" threads for now...
Kwea
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
Bring on the fluff, bring on the fluff, Bring it on me baby, I can't get enuff. I'm a rock 'em, sock 'em too tall Jones, And I'ma rocka this mic-a all on my own.
Word.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
You're weird.
I knew I liked you for a reason...now if I can only remember why... Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I heard the fluff call, Strode up into the hall, Now it's timez fo' my rimez, Gettin crazy wit the ladiez, Uzin' z's like e's I'm a chez-white-Tz
Ooo.
Uh.
Schizzo ma-nizzo, ca-jizzo, flabizzo Dizzo, what? Kizzo, what? Glizzo, huh?
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
I wanna see you grumble shake...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Hey, PSI -- haven't seen you around much lately. What's up?
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
My husband always says he's Catholic. He's Catholic because his family was Catholic. He's a Slovak Catholic American. So I believe the Catholic part is part of his nationality.
Football is his religion of choice. His beliefs walk the line a bit. He's also a worshipper of Hockey, Basketball and Baseball. I’ve even caught him praying to the God of NASCAR a time or two.
Ask him anything about the bible and you'll draw a blank. Ask him anything about football...then you're really asking for it. He will be able to preach for hours.
Sad but true.
((((Pooka))))
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
quote: I have been flabergasted at the comparison between professional sports and religion, and the support that this comparison has gotten.
I can understand somebody saying "it's just a game" or "it's just entertainment", and I think that everybody can understand why somebody could feel that way.
But I can't see the opposite happening. "It's only the meaning of life", "It's only your immortal soul", or "It's only the nature and order of the universe" are things that I can't understand somebody honestly saying.
Am I missing something, or am just extending the baseball/religion past it's breaking point, and past the point it was meant for?
You're missing something. You're missing the fact that the amount of faith and love and belief that you put into your hobby, being religion, is the same amount that sports fans put into their own hobby, being sports.
Mind you, I'm not really into either of those hobbies. ^^
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
While it may appear to some that religion is a hobby to the believer, to the person who believes strongly it is part of absolute reality. I don't see how any other hobby can compare--even to the person to whom it is important. In other words, I don't see how any hobby can be as important to the hobbyist as religion is to a strong believer. But perhaps this represents a lack of understanding on my part of just how important a hobby can be to a person. Perhaps because I can't imagine any hobby in my life comparing to my perspective on religion.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
Religion as a hobby?
I could not disagree more strenuously. My faith is a part of my daily life - it affects how I look at the world and how I react to it. Religious faith is not the showing up on Sundays to sing and visit with your friends. It's not a weekly event, like a football game is.
It's a 24 hour a day, 365 days a year commitment to live and walk according to the will of God to the best of your ability - and that is a far cry from watching and appreciating a baseball game.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: You're missing something. You're missing the fact that the amount of faith and love and belief that you put into your hobby, being religion, is the same amount that sports fans put into their own hobby, being sports.
I guess that's the problem. I just can't believe that this is true.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I'm sure there are sports fanatics out there who live, breathe and excrete their chosen hobby.
Just as I'm sure there are religious people who are less than fanatical in the pursuit of their faith.
But I concede that on the whole, there are more religious fanatics then there are sports fanatics.
-Trevor
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
But how much does a church charge for a hot dog and Coke?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ya know, for once, I'm gonna let discretion be the better part of good taste.
-Trevor
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Free at most of 'em, Tom. And Methodist churches usually have some good free casseroles to go along with them.
Nothing like a Methodist covered-dish supper. Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
You'd have to bring something of your own for the potluck, of course! Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Tom, The difference between church and baseball is this. At a ballgame, the hot dog is on a bun and costs about 4 dollars. At church, the hot dog is free, and is cut up and mixed with beans.
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
Well I would rather be a sports fanatic than a religious fanatic. I actually agree with Paul. Sports is more real to him than God will ever be. Have a cry and get on with it people. I roll my eyes at people who a very religious but I never tell them to go get a life (sometimes wish I could) because they will probably tell me I'm going to hell or something. Hehe Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
The difference is, at a ball game, the savior is swinging a stick.
-Trevor
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Or throwing the perfect pitch to end the game.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
stacy - all evidence suggests it is the sports fans who react most badly and most violently to being told their pursuit is pointless.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
No. The evidence shows that one sports fan reacted this way, though others acknowledged being annoyed.
Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
quote: all evidence suggests it is the sports fans who react most badly and most violently to being told their pursuit is pointless.
I hope you're talking about in this instance. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Well I would rather be a religious fanatic than a sports fanatic. I actually agree with pooka. God is more real to her than sports will ever be. Have a cry and get on with it people. I roll my eyes at people who are so involved in sports but I never tell them to go get a life (sometimes wish I could) because they will probably tell me I'm a bitch or something. Hehe
Note: The content of this post does not necessarily reflect the mindset of the poster. Thank you. Have a nice day.
[ October 30, 2004, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: beverly ]
Posted by tt&t (Member # 5600) on :
That is made all the more funny because I hear you saying it in an imitation of my sister's voice. (Given that that's who you're parodying.)
Posted by stacey (Member # 3661) on :
hehe, beverly the thing is that you and me both said that we wouldn't tell those fanatics to get a life where as pooka did.
Kathrina - Would you mind me telling you that whatever thing you are very very interested in was pointless and that it's pretty stupid spending all that time on it? You would probably like to think that you wouldn't react like Paul, but it would hurt wouldn't it? Sports is a personal thing for some people and I think it is fine to compare them to religion and even children. Some people are that fanatic about them. Get a life? I imagine Paul has one, a life that baseball is very much a part of.
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Pursuit of at least the vast majority of religions is pointless. Most of them are mutually exclusive.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
dkw, I just wanted to thank you for your answer to mr_porterio_head's question (a while up the page).
I thought it was very coherent, understanding and insightful.
That is all.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I would like to second Imogen. dkw, you summed up the whole business succinctly and beautifully, for me, anyway. Really, it is all about respecting someone else's reality, even if you don't understand it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Stacy, you and Danzig covered it already just on this page.
Yes, it's irritating, and terribly rude. It would be nice if there was an apology.
---
I never said Paul didn't - I love hobbies. I dress up for movies and throw Harry Potter parties and, might I add, post on Hatrack. Be accurate at least when you accuse me of things.
[ October 30, 2004, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
quote:all evidence suggests it is the sports fans who react most badly and most violently to being told their pursuit is pointless.
Apparently the crusades were a sporting event. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You think the crusades happened because someone told England to get a life?
[ October 30, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
The amount of condescension on this thread, from a bunch of nerds who spend every spare moment on a freaking internet forum, is staggering.
I need to step outside.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I feel the need to speak up for pooka because I consider her my friend and she is not currently here. What she meant to be a joke fell flat and exploded into something she didn't intend or forsee.
I just want to remind y'all that she did apologize and that she genuninely regrets what she said--especially in that it hurt people. Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
What Beverly said.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Ok, I've been biting my tongue (fingers??) for a few days. But I have to be honest. This whole thread makes me want to get sick. All of the undercutting and the mean remarks remind me of second graders on a playground. So, let me play teacher and suggest that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.
space opera
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Sharpie, A friend of mine is going to his grandfather's grave today, after the parade. I think of this whole baseball(particularly Red Sox) thing not so much as religion, but as a deeply rooted cultural ritual of a different sort, which connects generations in mutual hope. It is real to the people who feel it, but I can totally understand how people could not get it at all.
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:The amount of condescension on this thread, from a bunch of nerds who spend every spare moment on a freaking internet forum, is staggering.
I need to step outside.
I was just about to tell you to go get some exercise, tubby.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
-o-
I think some people are missing the point that this is no longer about Pooka and her comment, but about all the people whose attitude has basically been, "So what? She's right. You all do need to get a life." And they all have not been joking (just as Pooka was basically not joking).
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Yes, Elizabeth, I agree. I found that article I linked to very moving, actually. I grew up in New England. I was 12 years old in 1978. I remember riding around and around the block on my bike after that terrible game, angry and sad. The streets were emptier than usual, at least in the memory. Maybe people were inside staring in disbelief at their television sets. (It was a red white and blue Spirit of 76 bike with banana seat. For some reason, this is an important part of the memory .) This series has touched me more than I expected -- the memories of childhood, the links to the generations before me. I cared. I care. I wish my grandfather could have seen it.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
I remember last year, when the Sox were playing the Yankees, and my husband was doing his Red Sox fan thing. "That's it, it's over." My son looked up at him with shock and horror, and said, "Dad! How can you say that?!?!" with tears in his eyes. My husband shook it off and went back to being hopeful. For the last twenty years I have known him, "this" has been the year. Now it really is. I think it is about the best fortieth birthday present a guy culd get. This is good, as I certainly have no clue what to get him.
Incidentally, did anyone see the Daily Show the night after the Sox won the ALC? Rob Cordry did the funniest bit I have ever seen. Then, the other night, he was doing a pretend commentary on Yasser Arafat's ill health, and was giggling because the Sox won the Series. Cracked me up.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
A framed, quality print showing the Sox rushing the field after the game was over.
Or a print of a newspaper cover saying, "Sox Win!"
Something along those lines - it's a motif, go with it.
-Trevor
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Paul, as I said before, I do think you both overreacted, but I was glad to read your last post. It explained WHY you were so mad so much better than blowing up did, and it is far less likely to make people defensive.
I do understand what you are saying, and respect it to a point...enough to say that I am very glad for you and the other Boston fans who have a real history with that team.
I am a fan, but it is a recent thing for me, not being raised in this area. However, Detroit was a huge sports city in the 80's, and I was living in the burbs of it when some of the coolest times for sports were happening.
I don't think it is a religious experience per say, but that is the best analogy most sports fans can come up with because people get very intense when religion is mentioned fairly often, and some sports fans feel that intense about rooting for their team.
Not just because of the game though, particularly in Boston. In Boston so many years had passed that losing in October had become ingrained in the Sox fans psyche. They always found a way to lose, and generations watched the games hoping for something to be different year to year.
So the normal thoughts and actions of several generations became associated with baseball, the Red Sox in particular. People had their grandparents die without ever seeing their dreams for the Sox come true, and may family memories were permanently associated with watching the games with loved one..amny of whom are no longer alive to see the Curse (such as it was) be broken.
My wife and Mother-in-Law were two lifelong Sox fans whom stayed up to watch the WS, even though my wife had to get up for work at 6 am......and when the Sox finally won, after years of heartbreak and pain, my wife was insanely energetic.
She was so happy, but she was sorrowful too, and thought about her dead grandmother more that week than she had in a while.
So in a way, pooka was poking at all those memories, saying that because they don't matter to her they shouldn't matter to anyone.
A really bad joke that just escalated, until it went out of control.
See Paul, I do understand, at least a little....the Red Wings hadn't won since Gordy Howe when I became a fan in MI....
Kwea
[ October 30, 2004, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Trevor, good idea. He is a memorabilia kind of guy. I am looking at a signed Ted Williams lithograph as I write, under which is Larry Bird.
Hmm. Maybe Paul can help with this one...
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
Well, since this post has been responded to, I suppose I better put it back up. I'm not sure, yet, that its exactly what I want to write.
My post-
"It's a 24 hour a day, 365 days a year commitment to live and walk according to the will of God to the best of your ability - and that is a far cry from watching and appreciating a baseball game."
I don't GET religion. I think its centered around something that isn't real. But my mother is finishing rabbinical school and will be ordained in a few months... I don't tell her to get a life when she starts crying because she had a deeply meaningful experience during her chaplainship at a local hospital. My mother doesn't get baseball. To her, its simply a game, no more serious then playing a hand of hearts with us. But this week, she was thrilled for me and my brother, because the red sox winning was so important to us. I will attend her graduation and ordination, and be thrilled for her. We respect whats important in each of our lives. On this forum, I've tried to show the same respect for religious people as I show to my mother.
But respecting religion doesn't mean that, in a thread about the philosophy of religion, I won't put down my own views... because inquiry of a theological nature is important to me. I won't stay out of a thread just because people engaged are religious, and expressing religious views. If its a general question, I'm going to enter into it, because the stuff fascinates me. I also, however, won't jump into a celebration thread, and mock it. Thats a line of respect... someone can debate with me whether OPS is a better measure of a player's use to a team, or batting average. Someone can even debate with me whether sports are good for society or not... as long as its in proper context. Ruining a special event for someone is not the way to question whether their passtime is of significance. Should I post in a thread about baptism that I think the kid has been ruined for life, I'd expect to be chastised pretty harshly.
I still don't think I overreacted to pooka. I may have acted badly, but I won't apologize for it. I think she pretty much earned my responses. The fact that I don't respond to these sorts of stimuli in the way that perhaps our more "Refined" posters would like, is not something I am going to apologize for. Its who I am. Remember when someone doobied one of my serious threads? I blew a gasket. Thats who I am, NOW. At one point, I may have controlled myself... but controlling myself doesn't allow me to move past personal emotional injury, at this point in my life. I never was able to move past emotional injury by controlling my response. Maybe, at some point, I'll be able to have a controlled response, and be able to move past the injury. I can't right now. If that upsets you, frankly, I don't care one whit. I'm not going to hold grudges and feel anger and hatred for years, simply because you don't like the way I react. Don't belittle or insult me, and I won't blow up.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I loved the first two paragraphs. The third paragraph sounds very selfish, but it's also something you're aware of will probably deal with at some point.
I do thoroughly like the first two.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
The first two were what I really liked as well. Paul, you resonded in a very positive fashion in those.
I won't comment on the last, as it seems to me to be the least important one..
But the first two explained not only what you felt, but why, and did it very well.
Kwea
[ October 30, 2004, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
The third paragraph is the one I don't like either. its all true...
*Sigh* I bottled stuff up for a real long time, and it, at least in part, led to me being suicidal. I couldn't forgive people, or get what I need out of relationships, or do a lot of other necessary communication, because I bottled it up. THe reaction has been to go a long way the other way... its not GOOD, but its healthier then what I was doing, and I find it very difficult to go towards the center. Thats why I don't care what people think about the reaction... I need to do it. Need, not want. I recognize that it needs improvement, but it might take a long time for me to find a balance between emotional control, emotional outburst, and healthy relationships.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Paul, as long as you realize that you are farther along than you might think..
We all have issues we have to reslove, and not one of us is perfect. I get really mad too, but I don't direct it towards people, as I learned a long time ago it never leads to a good result. I may say things sometimes that I regret, but if I do I try to make amends for it....even though it is often too late to mend all the damage.
I am harder on myself more than on others, and that is hard for JenniK to deal with. You see, for some strange reason, she loves me...
Just keep at it, and try to find a balance between the extremes.
Kwea
[ October 30, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
(((Pooka))) (((Paul))) (((((My Husband)))))
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
dude Paul
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Paul, I am very glad that youreposted that, along with the explanation. Hang in there.
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(It's like The Clash of the Titans, except Scott is niether 600 feet tall, nor does he appear to be turning to stone).![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Perhaps because I can't imagine any hobby in my life comparing to my perspective on religion.
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