I just had the "initiation," I guess, into adult womanhood... some random guy I met twenty minutes before tried to kiss me.
So, I was in one of the cafeterias on campus, eating a late lunch, and reading a book. It's very common here for people who don't know each other to end up at the same table, and just start chatting. This guy was by himself, and I was by myself, so he asked if he could sit at my table, and I agreed... this had happened many times before.
We chatted, and he was a really nice guy, and I was thinking "finally, I'm making friends here, woohoo"... we talked about various things, and classes, and sort of joked together. He was telling me of spots on campus that I really need to go check out because they're gorgeous, and I said that I would do that at some point, but I wanted to go home and take a nap before I have to meet someone at 5:00 later today. When we got up to put our trays in the kitchen, he took my phone number, and said "we should go out for coffee or something, sometime"... which again, is a very common thing here. So I thought nothing of it. *stabs naivete of self*
When we walked out of the cafeteria, and I was about to say goodbye, and nice to meet you, he said "You know, the amphitheatre I told you about is really close, and it's gorgeous... I could show it to you, so you know where it is, really quickly before you have to leave." Again, curse my stupid childish innocence... I smiled and said "ok, thanks!" and we walked in the direction of the amphitheatre.
The view from there really was amazing... it showed all of Midbar Yehuda, and the mountains behind, and of course the Palestinian village between us and the desert. A really fantastic view. And it was really quiet... I like finding places to go where I can get away from the general hubbub of the campus. I still wasn't catching on... what an idiot.
He was pointing out the various sites, telling me what they are, and we sat down on the steps to look at them. He kept looking at me, and he took one of my braids, and said "so, is your family redheaded too?" and started playing with it. I laughed and said that I'm the only one in my family for generations to have red hair. He kept playing with my braid, and then he took the other one, from the other side of my head, to play with too... and his arm just happened to land right around my waist, where I guess he decided it was time to drop the hair. Yes, I did start to figure it out at this point (about time, right?), and I suddenly panicked. I moved a little sideways, away from him, so he'd get the idea that I wasn't comfortable with that, and suddenly looked at my watch and said "oh, I have to go now." I started to get up, but he wouldn't let me, he pulled me back down, and kept saying things like "I didn't think it could happen, that I sit in the cafeteria, and suddenly meet someone as wonderful as you."
I was freaking out by this point.
I got up, and went straight to my stuff, put my backpack on my back, and started to move away, really confused, with garbled mentionings of the boyfriend I have in the States... though he probably thought I was making them up. Suddenly he walked right up to me, and leaned into my face, while starting to put his arm around my neck.
That was the final straw. I pushed him away, and he said "what's the matter, too fast for you? We can go slower if you want." Stricken, I tried to talk about how happy I am with my current boyfriend, and walked as quickly as I could in the direction of leaving campus, where my dorm is. I was so shaken, I couldn't believe he had just tried to kiss me... call me naive yet again, but this has never happened to me before, and I was really traumatized. He ran after me, looking somewhat sheepish, and walked back with me to where we were going to split and go in different directions. He apologized a few times after that, and then said he had a lovely time, and it was nice to meet me, and walked away. I headed toward my dorms, shaking.
But... he as my phone number. And now I'm really scared. Because I gave it to him before he turned creepy. And I'm about to burst into tears, it was awful.
Sorry Hatrack, I just needed to let that out.
[ November 14, 2004, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Raia ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Raia
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
(((Raia)))
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
((Raia))
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs Raia*
You handled it beautifully. Being trusting and innocent is NOT something to blame yourself for, and you did a great job of handling it. And, sadly, will probably be a lot less trusting with the next guy to try that, but that won't be a bad thing. *hugs* I'm proud of you. I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
If he does have the nerve to call, make sure you get HIS number too so you can report this creep to the police.
I'm glad you're ok. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
(((((Raia)))))
Don't freak. Don't be scared. Based on the apologies and how he acted afterwards, he's probably not someone to be scared of, just someone with a bad sense of timing. He'll probably call and ask you out and try to "make up" for coming on to strong, and if you just tell him again you're not interested he'll probably go away. If he doesn't, that's something you can deal with then, don't waste your energy worrying about it now.
For your own peace of mind, it wouldn't hurt to stay around groups of people for awhile. But really... don't think this is what being an adult is like, for the most part, this is what being in college is like. Men slow down and back off a little when they get older. Plus, as it happens more often, you'll get a better sense of when it's going to happen and how to deal with it without getting embarassed or freaking out. ((Raia)) You're gorgeous, it's going to happen. And some people have different senses of boundries than others. You'll figure out where yours are, make them clear, and everything will be fine.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
I doubt that he’ll call, and if he does it will probably be just to apologize again. You handled it well. *hugs*
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
"Based on the apologies and how he acted afterwards, he's probably not someone to be scared of, just someone with a bad sense of timing."
You might be right, but I wouldn't take any chances though. Wow. I sound just like my dad. Posted by Dufus (Member # 6994) on :
Poor Guy
Sounds like he's still in the dream world every young man goes through. This was probably him experimenting, feeling lonely and testing how strong he can come onto a woman before he gets a slap!
Try not to think too much of it, he's made his mistake and knows what not to try in the future, but do try and talk to him and be friendly, just to clear the awkwardness
Also, Damn you! I want to see the sights of your campus!
All the best, Matty
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It's all about your comfort level. If he calls and is insistant and creeps you out, yeah, call the police. But you didn't get any bad vibes off him in the cafeteria, or you wouldn't have chatted with him and gone on the walk at all. So he's probably a relatively normal guy who was completely taken with you and needs to work on 1) his social skills and 2) reading other people. But I don't think he'll just call to apologize, I think he'll still try to get another chance. Be firm with him, and if he doesn't go away then, that's certainly the time to get the authorities involved.
Edit: If he makes you uncomfortable, you have absolutely no obligation to be freindly and clear the awkwardness. That way can lead to him thinking he still has a chance, plus he'll learn a lot faster not to do it if he doesn't get a freindship out of the bargin.
[ November 02, 2004, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Matt! Hi! Welcome!
The rest of you, thanks... yeah, he's probably not much of a risk now, but I'm still really scared... I'm sure I'll get over it, but now I'm really freaked out.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I am sympathatic, but I am also surprised you got to the age you are without this having happened before. Gosh -- I'm naive' and small town and all that, but the first time a similar thing happened to me I was only 15.
I just thought everyone had encountered this at some point in their high school life...
Don't stress -- I agree with what Eljay said. He just mis-read your friendliness.
Farmgirl
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Just be sure to be clear. If your current goal is to have no contact with him, and he gets in touch with you, tell him once that you want no contact with him. Be polite, but don't equivocate or give him a reason - you don't owe him one. Also, don't put any temporal qualifications on your desire to have no contact. No "for now" or "I'm in a bad place in my life right now" or even "I have a boyfriend."
After that, if he contacts you, do not respond. If you feel threatened, go to the police or campus security. If not, just ignore him. Do not reward persistent behavior on his part.
Good luck. Hopefully he's mortified and will simply stay away.
Dagonee
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
I've tried to kiss girls I've just met before, so I can't blame him for that.
But to hold on to Raia so that she can't leave? That is technically battery and I can't really accept that as a mere lack of social skills.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
quote:I am sympathatic, but I am also surprised you got to the age you are without this having happened before. Gosh -- I'm naive' and small town and all that, but the first time a similar thing happened to me I was only 15.
I just thought everyone had encountered this at some point in their high school life...
Guys suck. I feel like Hugh Grant at the SPAT meeting. I didn't realize how often this happens. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
You would be amazed at how many young men possess that particular lack of social skills.
(Edit: This was to the battery post)
[ November 02, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Just be sure to be clear. If your current goal is to have no contact with him, and he gets in touch with you, tell him once that you want no contact with him. Be polite, but don't equivocate or give him a reason - you don't owe him one. Also, don't put any temporal qualifications on your desire to have no contact. No "for now" or "I'm in a bad place in my life right now" or even "I have a boyfriend."
This is correct. If he twists what you say into sounding like you were into it, do not respond to him. Some people love lying or twisting words to goad you into contacting them to "clear things up" or "straighten the record." All you have to do if a third party asks you about such a twisted story is ask them if they'll follow you to the school security to make a stalking complaint with you.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
(((Raia)))
Dufus, I respectfully disagree.
Be blunt. "Don't ever call me or try to contact me in any way again. What you did was unwanted and inappropriate, and if I hear from you again, I will speak to the authorities. If you were just joking around, you need to wise up -- and instead of apologizing to me, spend your time and energy making sure it doesn't happen again." Click.
But of course, I am biased. Being young and giving off all those soft/fluffy/inoffensive vibes, I attracted my share of guys who didn't respect my boundaries. 5 that creeped me out, 3 of whom got really scary, and 2 of those who I spoke to the police about*. None of them backed off until I was blunt, and I wished I'd listened to my gut from the beginning.
But, my ego was all caught up in "being nice" and "not hurting anyone's feelings, ever" -- I agonized over it, and I was proud about the agonizing, as I thought it meant I was sensitive. Instead of prey.
*(The other of the three scary guys was in one of my biology classes. He was married but delighted in passing me notes about how beautiful my hair was, how smart I was, and -- eventually, bizarrely -- that he was sure even my ovaries were beautiful. However, he knew no personal info about me, and though he became even coarser when rebuffed, he wasn't a real threat. I made sure nobody followed me home, though -- and by that time, my number was unlisted.)
I'd also keep a note of his description, a copy of this thread, a note of the time & date when he calls (if he does), and a record of what you say to him. If he doesn't get the picture after that, I'd ask the campus security for advice. They may be willing to speak to him for you or have other options.
Remember, though, that I'm biased.
Good luck!
[ November 02, 2004, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
vwiggin, this is why a guy will likely never have the same gut-wrench when they hear footsteps coming up behind them that a woman does.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Very good point on not trying to "correct" his version. Let him have his version of events. If he is a stalker, he seeks contact. Arguing is contact. Getting the victim to defend her honor is a common tactic.
I don't want to scare you - most likely this is done except for a possible awkward apology (which you can accept graciously if you are still perfectly clear about not wanting to see him). Just be ready if it goes past that.
Dagonee
[ November 02, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Sara's not biased. Listen to her.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*takes note of all the advice* Really, everyone, thank you... I'm a little calmer now, and I'll remember all of this if he does try to call me. And I'll definitely keep this thread alive in case I need it later.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Hey, guys get that feeling too. We usually get it while downloading porn at the office.
Now I understand that when a girl wants me to walk her to the parking lot, she's not necessarily into me. She just wants some portection. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
This book is almost unique in it's ability to teach people how to protect themselves without generating unnecessary fear. It's not about being paranoid or taking 100 precautions against a thousand hypotheticals.
It's about trusting intuition and harnessing your natural survival skills.
Dagonee
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Vwiggin, I'm glad you could learn something from all of this.
Dag, thanks for the recommendation... I'll have to look in the library tomorrow and see if they have that.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
What bothers me is that he either didn't pick up on or ignored some very serious signals from her. He held her to him as she was trying to pull away -- and this was a woman he just met, within the last hour.
For whatever reason, he doesn't abide by the same social conventions as the rest of us. Doesn't matter if he was fantasizing, or just trying his power on for size, or whatever. Regardless, it is inexcusable behavior.
The hardest part about being blunt is that you don't give reasons or excuses. We usually give reasons or excuses when we decline an invitation or another person, precisely so they can avoid taking it personally. "It wasn't me, it was just that she was busy right then."
You can't do that, here. Like Dag said, one time straight and clear, no reasons or excuses. Then you involve backup.
I hate that I see the world this way, but I do. The alternative is so wretched as to be unbearable.
Eventually, Raia, you will learn to give off some instinctive "unh-uh, back off buster" vibes. It comes with the way you walk, the way you hold your head, the significant pauses when you speak, the lack of an upward-rising inflection in your voice. (Young women often speak a statement as if it were a question.) It comes with time, and it filters out a lot of the crackpots. It gets better.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Oh, btw, did I mention that he's eight years older than me?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
This is one of those things where, if the part were being played by John Cusack, women would sigh and buy the DVD -- but, in real life, makes you quickly aware that not all boundaries are bad things.
Sara's got the right of it, methinks.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Thanks, Sara. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
My guess is that you aren't the first he has tried this on. The cafeteria is likely a great watering hole to find the deer.
Creep. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I think of it as a social contract gone wrong. Girls are to be always nice, always considerate, smooth over any awkwardness in social relations, and not scare the boys. In return, they act like gentlemen.
Some men are unaware of or choose to ignore their side of that particular social contract. Despite that, girls are often still held to their side. That's such baloney.
You have no obligation to smooth anything over or make sure he's not damaged. He's so much older, he was looking for someone who didn't know enough yet to fight back.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I think some of this may have been because of the differences in cultures (remember, she is going to school in Israel). I agree that what he did was not appropriate and I'm really sorry that it happened. I know firsthand how scary unwanted advances in an isolated place can be. But I'm glad that you were able to learn an important lesson without any harm coming to you. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:This is one of those things where, if the part were being played by John Cusack, women would sigh and buy the DVD -- but, in real life, makes you quickly aware that not all boundaries are bad things.
There is a big difference, though -- you can pause or turn off the video. It isn't the same power relationship.
Just as, excuse me for being blunt, one may induge in a erotic fantasy of being taken by an unknown stranger, but would rebuff such a stranger in real life. One is the illusion of lack of control, the other is the real thing. One comes with soft light, just the right music, and any difficult parts discreetly blurred -- the other comes with trauma, STDs, fear, and post-traumatic stress.
I can see where the entertainment media playing to the fantasy could be confusing. However, I expect anyone of standard intelligence over the age of 15 to understand the difference.
(As I know you do, Tom. I am just trying to be clear. And there are many jokes, movies, and books that i no longer find at all compelling, unlike the fluffy-headed and sweet-hearted girl I was before college.)
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
(((Raia))) Take care.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
*nod* I'm actually not only aware of the distinction but fascinated by it, mainly because I have real difficulty enjoying a fantasy about something I wouldn't want to actually happen to me. I know that I'm certainly an exception to that rule, but I often find myself forced to appreciate on an academic level the fact that some people might like to be stranded on a desert island with only, say, Kirsten Dunst for company, despite the fact that, when envisioning the same scenario, I have trouble getting past the very real problems of scurvy and what I assume to be Kirsten's poor hunting, gathering, and house-assembly skills.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
8 years older than you? Now I really think you should listen to Sara.
Posted by BunnV (Member # 6816) on :
Yikes! Sorry that happened to you. That was scary. Cool to hear you're calmer, now. Hopefully this doesn't turn you against meeting new people, instead make you more cautious about it. Maybe you should wear your hair up.
Best of luck with your studies abroad!
-Jorge
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I'll just join the chorus of people telling you that Sara and Dag have the right of it. That this guy, within an hour of meeting you, tried to get you to a secluded place, didn't pick up on any of your signals, and then tried to restrain you is just completely unacceptable. If he attempts to make contact with you again, rebuff him in no uncertain terms. If he keeps it up, notify the authorities. What are the laws life for this kind of thing in Israel?
quote:vwiggin, this is why a guy will likely never have the same gut-wrench when they hear footsteps coming up behind them that a woman does.
I can't even begin to tell you how much I hate this. The truth of this was driven home to me a few years ago when my wife and I were driving around together one night, exploring. From the car we saw a fairly secluded footbridge spanning a little stream that crossed a walking path. Snow was falling gently, and I was taken by how pretty the scene was. My wife, looking at the same scene, saw it as a likely spot to be ambushed and raped. It was only after she said that that I noticed the blue emergency phone on the light pole next to the bridge.
God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Yeah, the eight years older part changes the picture. Avoid the guy.
Unless he continues to try to see you it’s probably nothing to be excessively worried about, but you have no responsibility to smooth things over or make sure his feelings aren’t hurt.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I think you and I are currently in the same position, Tom. Literal realism has its appeal, though. It makes reality as compelling as fantasy, when the fantasy comes laden with the rest of the story.
BTW, I appreciate the irony of me being the one to be hardline about this. However, when this was an issue for me in my younger days, i couldn't even say h--l or d--n in private, much less make jokes about daisy chains in public. *grin But part of the power I yielded up to others was in the powerlessness I felt in regards to sex.
So, though I really should ease up on my inappropriateness here, it does speak of both my level of comfort about being taken in context here, as well as my own level of comfort about all sorts of power, sex included.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm glad this is a safe place for you, and that you are where you want to be. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting.
Yeah. I remember crying when I was coming to terms with the fact that this is the way the world really is, at least in part. I was horrified.
The risks are always there, but as Dag said, you can learn how to make the fear a useful tool for you instead of being paralyzed by it. However, that means I can never just fall asleep in the sunlight in a secluded leaf-strewn area of a park. As sappy as it sounds, I really really miss that. I've considered adopting a lovely, strong, toothy German shepard to doze beside me.
Life also gets easier, as a woman, when you come into your own. Part of the unattractiveness of older women as prey is that they are not as powerless as before. It isn't about sex, really, or at least not the lovey-dovey part of sex -- it is about exerting power. Sex is a useful blunt tool for that, for those who have little else to work with. It is a even more effective tool if those you use it on shy away from the reality of it.
[katharina: I am striving to be more of the woman I want to be here. I have great role models. ]
Self-defense classes are awesome for developing one's own sense of power and a great workout, to boot.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
It's impossible for me to say how I would feel, were I part of a class that was victimized in this way, but I think that if I were I would do just that Sara--get a big dog, a German Shepherd or Irish Wolfhound, and walk those secluded footpaths and nap in those parks.
Of course, I also have to admit that I'd love to have a dog like that now, simply because I love the basic German Shepherd personality, and am curious about the Irish Wolfhound personality, and find walks in the woods a lot more fun with a dog bounding along aside and ahead of me.
By the way, I don't know why I wrote the word "anyway" in the text you quoted. Meant to write "anywhere". I've corrected it in my actual post.
[ November 02, 2004, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I went for a walk my first Sunday morning in my new neighborhood, and I got followed down the street. I sat on the wall, pulled out my cell phone, and watched him until he got back in his car and drove away. I haven't been walking in this neighborhood since.
It's just freaky.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Noemon, it's corrected. I haven't been ready to commit to the daily routine of dog life, but when I am, it will be a pleasure.
katharina, I'm sorry.
BTW, Sophie and I are going to practice a variety of "withering looks" before she hits gradeschool. I'm not going to be scaring her with the details why, but I want her to be as strong and assured a young sprite as they come.
She'll be able to flatten a predator with a glance. She's got the grunt down pat already. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
It's important to be able to flatten anyone. I think...what I wish I'd had was the knowledge that that kind of self-assurance was attractive. It seemed too often that I had the choice of being self-assured or being liked, and it's hard to keep choosing to be unattractive.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
Oh no! (((((Raia))))) Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I grew up out in the country. When I was pretty little it was just a remote little community peopled mostly by farmers, but in the mid 70s the Corpse of Engineers built a lake nearby, and we started getting more traffic from people driving through the town (and I use town loosely--there were probably 40 people or so who lived there, all told, and that's a high estimate) on the way to the beach or the boat docks. It was a rural enough area that my parents didn't worry too much about my running around wherever I wanted, and I remember once, when I was about 8 or so, sitting on a circular planter thing that had recently been built in front of the little shop that had been a grocery before the building of the lake, but had since become kind of a convenience store. I have no idea what I was doing there--just kind of hanging out, probably having a coke or something and enjoying the feel of the evening air.
Anyway, a pickup pulled up next to me with a couple of guys in it. They asked me how to get to the beach. I told them that it was just a straight shot down the road they were on, but that it would be closing in a few minutes if it wasn't already closed. The guy asked/told me to hop in the truck and show them where it was, and my blood ran cold (no idea where my dogs were; I was generally surrounded by a number of them, but they must not have been around at this point). I said that I thought I'd just stay where I was, and the guy said that it would just take me a few minutes to show them where the beach was. I was pretty scared; I knew that there was no good reason why they'd want me to get into their car.
The planter I was sitting on wasn't all that well made--basically it was just a pile of rose quartzite poorly mortared together. Before the guys came I'd noticed that a grapefruit sized stone was pretty loose, and I'd been rocking it back and forth, loosening it further, before they drove up. When the guy asked me to get into his truck a second time, I said no, stood up, and while holding his gaze I very calmly (ever since I was little, I've always responded to situations where I'm scared or badly hurt by becoming almost ridiculously calm) pulled the rock out of the planter, held it ready to throw, and waited for them to make the next move. The moment seemed to drag on for an eternity, but finally they just drove off, and after they'd gotten a little way away I put the stone back, ran into a plot of scrubwood, and made my way home through it (I went through the woods figuring that if they were planning on following me that would probably foil their plan).
Standing up to those who would do you harm, meeting their eyes, telling them no, and letting them know that if challenged you will fight them tooth and nail can often make all the difference between being a victim and not. I was 8--they could easily have overpowered me, and I doubt that I could have thrown that rock hard enough or accurately enough to hurt them (although I suppose I could have dented their truck). It was my refusal to be cowed by them (well, visibly cowed--in reality I was terrified) that made the difference, I think.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
((((Raia))))
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
The only thing I can really add to all this is that you definitely should not be blaming yourself for this. You behaved like an ordinary civilized person ought to behave. It was the guy that was in the wrong here. If you blame yourself for this encounter, I can only see that leading to the conclusion that you shouldn't have been nice. I think it would be a terrible tragedy if you took the wrong lessons from this, and went around treating all guys as if they secretly wanted to do the same things this guy actually did. As a "nice guy" myself, I'm pretty sick of women who get cold and nasty when all I did was act nice, because they've got themselves convinced that because I'm a guy, I must have impure motives. Blame this guy, as an individual, for this. He was the one in the wrong. Please don't let it stop you from being nice to other people.
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
Raia, how scary. I think the age difference is a red flag. You have gotten some great advice here.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
It isn't your fault at all. Don't fee guilty or bad about it!
I agree with CT 99% of the way.
My one word difference is that at a young age, those who are 13-14ish (depending on the guy) it is somewhat likely he's just learning social norms in girl/guy relationships. My 13 year old guy cousin called me once upset because he tried to kiss a girl at a dance and she slapped him. He wondered why. It was his elementry school graduation dance, and apparently he had a crush on this girl all year. They had "paired" off, and he tried to kiss her during the final dance of the evening.
Maybe I'm biased towards my cousin, but he's a perfect gentlemen towards things. He just didn't know anything about guy/girl relationships. He called me up all upset, and wondering what he could do to make her not hate him. (He's now 16 and went to a prom with the same girl that had slapped him at 13 They went in a tractor. Rural farm town).
Basically, all I'm saying, is do what feels right to you. And don't walk around cynical about all guys.
[ November 02, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
((((((((Raia)))))))))
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:I think...what I wish I'd had was the knowledge that that kind of self-assurance was attractive. It seemed too often that I had the choice of being self-assured or being liked, and it's hard to keep choosing to be unattractive.
You pinned it. But as sure as I know anything, I know that anyone who does not find self-assurance and strength in me attractive is incapable of really loving me, even as a friend. Love means you delight in the other's happiness, success, strength, and beauty. So it helps winnow out the ones who should just be acquaintances.
However, this can be a lonely place when you are a young woman, definitely. And the alternative seems so much easier.
Have you ever read the international fairy tales gathered in The Maid of the North, kat? You would adore them! Someone who -loved- me gave me a copy when I was younger, and it's a favorite reread for me at Christmastime. We need more strong women in the world and more stories about the beauty of their personal power.
quote:In her two collections, Tatterhood and The Maid of the North, Ethel Johnston Phelps sets out to counterbalance traditional fairy tales such as Snow White where women are beautiful and passive or ugly and evil. The Maid of the North gathers folk and fairy tales from Scandinavia, Africa, Britain, Russia, Pakistan, as well as several North American Indian cultures. The women, girls, and female animals in these stories are bright, brave, crafty, determined, loving, and moral. They protect themselves and others; they can ride on the wind and choose whom (or if) they will marry.
Hatrack can be a place where we honor the strength of self-assured young women, the choices exerted by SAHMs, and the importance of intelligence and kindness. In this context, at least, there is a force against the darkness, yes?
quote:When the guy asked me to get into his truck a second time, I said no, stood up, and while holding his gaze I very calmly (ever since I was little, I've always responded to situations where I'm scared or badly hurt by becoming almost ridiculously calm) pulled the rock out of the planter, held it ready to throw, and waited for them to make the next move. ... Standing up to those who would do you harm, meeting their eyes, telling them no, and letting them know that if challenged you will fight them tooth and nail can often make all the difference between being a victim and not.
What a wonderful, wonderful story, and what an amazing view of you as a child. This would make a great children's book. Serious.
(((Noemon))) and (((katharina))) and (((Raia))), again
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Verily, absolutely. She should not be blaming herself, and she should not assume unconditionally that every man she meets is out to mess with her.
I think it helps to focus instead on developing one's own strength and self-assurance. When this comes across as congruent in voice and body language, someone who is looking for prey is likely to choose another. I bet Dag's book recommendation (The Gift of Fear) is great on this.
However, unless you want the women you love to be hampered from making good choices, I think (IMHO) you have to deal with their viewing every person that they don't know exceedingly well as a potential problem. It isn't personal -- it's more like checking the air in your tires on a regular basis, or looking both ways before you cross the street. You want women you care about to be appropriately wary, just as you want children to be appropriately wary (like Noemon, above).
There isn't anything worth getting from a woman that you can't wait to get to know her well first, not if it is a caring relationship.
Jaiden, yeah -- I expect different things of the 15 and older crowd than I do of the younger ones.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:I know that anyone who does not find self-assurance and strength in me attractive is incapable of really loving me, even as a friend.
I absolutely agree with this.
I'll look up that fairy tale book - that sounds wonderful.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Although it's true that the coterie of people around one are less likely to find this attractive in a young woman.
Older, more sophisticated guys may get it (my David, for example), young guys with a lot of self-assurance of their own may get it (here I think of Irami ), but the sort of people -- male and female -- you are forced to interact with as a young woman often don't. It is often in their best interest of personal comfort to encourage you to be nice, not make waves, and not get uppity.
On the other hand, young kids often get it. I've set my hat at being the rakish and opinionated Aunt who my nieces want to be like when they grow up, at least in part. Hang out with kids, talk about what's unfair in their lives, and brainstorm practical solutions. A real boost.
And as we get more control over who is in our lives, we can chose to be in those groups of people where strength is a virtue. Hard to do, though, in high school and college, since you don't get to pick much who is in classes with you.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
((((Raia)))) Well, I guess there's not much you can do. But if he starts stalking you, just tell him you know a guy who's willing to fly to Jerusalem just to beat the tar out of him for being so disrespectful of you. (That and I'd kinda like to see the place )
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I went on a sumer undergraduate fellowship to Arizona State University when I was 17. It was a good summer. I guess I got used to being independent. Or I fell into it very natuarally without realizing it and had major adjustments there after because it was hell when I had to spend the last year before I officially "went away" to college at home. I stopped asking for "permission" to do stuff.
Anyway, though my story involves this guy I met at the McDonalds in the student union. We ate lunch together a couple of times, and he seemed nice enough so I consented to going to a movie with him. I wanted to tell my roommate, where I was going so someone knew where I was but it was a pretty casual thing, and since the plans were made spur of the moment, she wasn't at the apartment and I wasn't able to get ahold of her. So I was on my own.
He picked me up, I got in the car. On the way to the movie theater he tried to not just hold, but fondle my hand three or four times. The first couple of times I simply moved my hand away. After that, I said, I'm sorry but I'm not comfortable holding your hand yet. He said something like, "Well I'm a very physical person and I do this with everyone." I returned, "Well if you want to date me you aren't going to do it with me." And he said (we were in the theater parking garage by that time) "Well I guess I should just turn the car around and take you back." And I said "Yes, I guess you had better." So he turned the car around and we went back. It was a very quiet awkward ride.
I give the guy some decency points since he did take me back to my apartment. I would have gotten out and walked back home from the theater even if it was a trek had it been necessary. At some point I believe I did mention that I was under age. On several other occasions as well while I was still younger than everyone else, to use that as a weapon, as far as discouraging unwanted attention. The problem was that the good guys, whose attention I would have enjoyed, were also acutely aware of the fact I was underage, and because they were decent, they didn't allow themselves to even view me as a romantic prospect.
AJ
(After I got back to the apartment though I suspect I had very similar emotional reactions to what Raia is going through though perhaps not as extreme. I called a good friend who listened and told me I did the right thing and it made all the difference in the world.)
[ November 02, 2004, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*hugs* That sounds like a somewhat scary situation... I know I'd feel the same way in such a situation. Men rapidly envading my walls makes me very nervous... And everyone especially Sara gave great advice.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Sounds like you handled that very well AJ.
You know, Sara, that book idea isn't the worst I've ever heard.
::muses::
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
You write it, I'd illustrate it. Or at least give you illustrations to see if they fit your concept of the book. (And I am very cool with being turned down ... even if we were meant to be together ... )
Do it, Jake. It's fighting the good fight -- it really is.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Good lord, she's a stalker!
You know, I just might. I'll play around with it tonight and see how it comes out.
[ November 02, 2004, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Noemon ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Nothing comparable has ever happened to me but I regularly walk in the dark, and someone once told me that confidence; meeting passers-by's eyes squarely, not looking down, looking back behind you fiercely so any followers would know you knew they were there are all good tactics.
I agree that confidence and bluntness in any uncomfortable situation is, in many cases, the best tactic.
Posted by Zotto! (Member # 4689) on :
Oh ugh. (((Raia))) Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
OY! (((((Raia)))))
Sounds like everyone's given you good advice, metukah. Glad you're feeling calmer. (((((Raia)))))
It's true that cultural norms are slightly different in Israel, ludosti, but not THAT different! There's more acceptance of what an American would call pushiness; but this went WAY beyond that.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Sorry I haven't been responding to all this, I had to go babysit... (yeah, really what I wanted to do after the entire episode, take care of a six year old child).
But thank you, everyone. I knew I could count on Hatrack for advice and support.
Posted by MaydayDesiax (Member # 5012) on :
(((raia)))
You did well, little one. I'm proud with how well you handled it. I would have slapped him.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
(((Raia)))
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Slapping is almost always a bad idea. It angers more than does harm. Generally, you will be smaller than the man in question, and if it gets physical your only advantage is the fact that he will not expect you to fight back effectively.
If you are going to hit, do it with the intent to put the person down. Follow through so they will stay down. Then get out of there.
It is a very good idea to take a self-defense clas to learn how to do this effectively. You still will be highly disadvantaged if it ever comes to needing it, but at least you'll have a clearer idea of your options and what gives you the best chances.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Are you going to change your e-mail to pigs_are_men@yahoo.com ?
I agree with verily: don't blame yourself--at a minimum, the guy's a creep and a jerk, and potentially much worse.
(((Raia)))
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Raia, I'm so sorry this happened to you.
The first time it happened to me, I was 9. I was already 5'3'' and a B cup. A 12-year-old friend of my cousin propositioned me beside the shed on my uncle's property (I had gone there go get something and he followed me). I said no, thank you, but he put his hands on my shoulders and pushed me against the wall. Thankfully, my cousin came by just then and he let go. I told my aunt and we never saw that kid again.
Men have come on to me aggressively ever since then. I was a DD cup by the time I was 14 (and I weighed 102lbs, so I looked like an F), and a lot of guys think that a large-chested girl is promiscuous. Since I learned at a very young age that some guys are predators, I was careful. Still, I had some very unpleasant experiences that I try not to think about.
This is the reason that I carry a firearm. I refuse to be a victim and I feel that that is the best way to defend myself. I understand that it's not for everybody, but I have peace of mind knowing that I can stop an attacker before he gets to me.
About self-defense classes - don't take just one. It takes 1,000 to 2,000 repetitions for an action to be translated into muscle memory (I'm pretty sure, but correct me if I'm wrong). In order to develop the skill and instinct that will protect you, you will need more than a 1-4 hour class. If necessary, take the same class over and over.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Oh, totally Mrs. M. I didn't mean sign up for one of those silly afternoon workshops. I meant take some kind of martial arts for a couple of years. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*sigh* As I've become older I've realized how many guys actually do hit on blue eyed blondes, especially at gas stations. The thing is I never realized they were, until recently I was oblivious. Dying my hair red, was an eye opening experience as far as the difference in the way I was treated by guys in general.
I'm guessing it's slightly similar to the d-cup thing. God help you if you are a D cup blue-eyed blonde (Actually I have a friend in CA who is, and you should hear the stories she's got.) I guess it is a mixed blessing that they generally run screaming for the hills if they hear me say more than about five sentences and figure out what a geek I am.
AJ
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
And you're saying it is LESS of a problem if you're a redhead??? I don't think so.... Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
AJ, I am a redhead. Notice this happened to me anyway.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
If you are a redhead they worry more about ticking you off because you might have a temper at least compared to a "ditzy blonde"
And with my eyebrows dyed I am an extremely convincing red head in appearance. Though I've never had the guts to make the carpet match the curtains.
AJ
Note: Don't dye your hair red on a whim the day before you are attending a redhead's wedding, where his entire family is also red-headed. You get mistaken for a groom's family member constantly by the bride's side. Even though the bride was my college roommate!
[ November 02, 2004, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
Then you obviously haven't heard any of the stupid jokes/stereotypes about a redhead's sex drive..
quote:What's the mating call of a redhead?
"Next!"
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
quote:Though I've never had the guts to make the carpet match the curtains.
Posted by TheTick (Member # 2883) on :
I've never heard of redheads being referred to as having any more or less sex drive. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I recently started hanging out with a lot of Muslims on campus. The men (these are mostly married grad students) are always wonderful about dropping me off exactly at my front door and walking me to my dorm after dark. I realized recently that I'm incredibly nervous walking around campus at night already. I can't imagine how scared I would be walking around campus at night wearing a head scarf. I really respect all of the women because they choose to wear the headscarves regardless of their fear.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Hmm I guess not. I guess the two overlap then, cause I've heard that replacing "redhead" with "blonde".
Though no one ever says that a redhead will drown if you put a scratch and sniff sticker at the bottom of a swimming pool either.
AJ
[ November 02, 2004, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Glaphyra the Righteous (Member # 6995) on :
blackwolve, agreed.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Awww.. ((Raia))
It's ok baby! *hugs some more*
If you were single it would have been very romantic! Don't worry darlin. I doubt he'll be a problem for ya. Just tell him if he calls or you run into him again that you didn't realize his intentions and that you have a boy already.
I've been hit on in the most surprising ways and by some really strange people. It was scary at first but now if I'm not interested I just say "Thanks, but no thanks!" I try and look at it as a compliment.
((Raia))
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
quote:If you were single it would have been very romantic!
Um, no. Over-the-line advances are not appreciated by single women, either.
[ November 02, 2004, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Glaphyra the Righteous (Member # 6995) on :
Telp, it is different for women. Really, it is.
I wish it weren't. Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Wow, Raia, that's really scary. I'm glad you're okay. I think the advice you've been given here is wonderful (Sara, if I ever have children can you be an Auntie to them too?). I think you handled the situation just fine.
If you want to learn self-defense, I'd like to recommend Aikido. I've been doing it for a few months, and it's a great defensive martial art because you use your attacker's weight and momentum against them. You can throw a guy twice your size when you get good at it. Plus it's very fun.
Take care of yourself, Raia. You aren't obligated to be nice to scary people!
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I've been hit on by gay men before and I've adopted a similar "I'm flattered, but not interested" type of approach.
But let's be honest here, I can't say that I'd be any more amused than Raia if a guy opted to go straight to kissing at the bowling alley.
Or a woman I wasn't particularly interested in.
-Trevor
Edit: As for self-defense, Aikido takes a long time to learn to become practically proficient in. Since Raia is in, if memory serves, Israel, I'd recommend taking some classes in Krav Maga.
You may never need to use the skills, but for a practical, no-nonsense means of protection it's hard to beat.
How's the cliche go? It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
Edit 2: For embarassing typo
[ November 02, 2004, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
The context is different when you are a woman.
By statistics, it is men who rape (99% of reported violations). It is women -- who are generally smaller, have fewer defenses, and are trained to avoid being seen as aggressive -- who are raped (91% of reported victims). [figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics]
Actually, among countries who gather statistics on rape, the US takes the cake per capita. Lovely.
With a context like that, I think it is understandable that guys may not get how pervasive and life-altering this is for women, and how important it is for them to be wary. The context is just light-years of difference.
Not to say that I think anyone being free of this weight is a bad thing. Goodness knows, I'm glad the men I care about do not have to think about this. Nonetheless, for a guy to shrug it off and say "not interested" has a very different range of possible outcomes than when a woman says it.
Of course, we say "not interested" all the time and in a variety of ways. Those to whom we say it are usually civilized enough that though disappointed or even irritated, they wouldn't dream of pushing the point in an untoward way. However, if someone has already restrained you or set off your bad-vibe-o-meter in some other way, I'd advise caution for a woman where I might not be quite so quick to judge if it were a man.
Different context. Still inappropriate behavior, though. Just less likely to be a harbinger of very nasty badness to come.
[ November 02, 2004, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There's also a big difference between "being hit on in surprising ways" and being kissed against your will by someone who you're trying to get away from.
Telp, sorry to say this, but you are WRONG on this one.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I just lost my reply.
((((Raia)))) was the gist of it though. I hope you are feeling better.
I agree with dkw and eljay - I was thinking it was more a case of social inepitude on his part until you told us about the age gap. That moves things firmly to the *ick* side of the border in my opinion.
Whatever you do, don't feel bad about it. The guy misread the situation as much, and probably more than you did. You were clearly uncomfortable and he pressed on - not acceptable.
(I would give you a kiss smilie but I fear it would be inappropriate )
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- God I hate that. I hate that any people, anywhere, should be looked on as prey by any other people. I just find that revolting. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah. I remember crying when I was coming to terms with the fact that this is the way the world really is, at least in part. I was horrified.
The risks are always there, but as Dag said, you can learn how to make the fear a useful tool for you instead of being paralyzed by it. However, that means I can never just fall asleep in the sunlight in a secluded leaf-strewn area of a park. As sappy as it sounds, I really really miss that. I've considered adopting a lovely, strong, toothy German shepard to doze beside me.
Since this is such a palpable and hard reality, why is it that this isn't a consideration when discussing equality of women? I never hear it coming up, usually because pay rates and voting are argued ad nauseum.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
It depends on who you are listening to, I guess.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Domestic violence and rape are very commonly discussed as equality issues.
I don't think criminal enforcement is considered a civil right by enough people. (I know there are other important forums where these issues are dealt with, but I have the most experience in the criminal context.) The people who suffer the results of most crime are the poor, the disenfranchised, and those lacking power for some other reason.
Common law crime definitions still contain a lot of assumptions about human behavior that are really assumptions about male behavior. The model penal code and its offspring have a gone a very long way to cleaning this up, but the effects are still there.
Dagonee
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Justa, I've read your post a couple of times, and I'm just not quite able to make sense of it. It seems like I can almost put my finger on what you're saying, and then it eludes me. Could you explain exactly what it is that you're arguing?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Raia, you've already received a lot of reallly good and useful advice. I'm gonna add just a little bit to it.
Always trust your instincts. Always. If your slimy-vibe meter goes off, then get away from whoever's giving it off. Don't second guess it, don't bother trying to figure it out - just listen and act. No apologies, no being nice-nice, don't bother being polite. Just get away, and get away now. Protect yourself. Your safety is far more important than any potentially perceived social blunders.
Also try to stop things before they escalate - when possible. Someone else mentioned looking a perp in the eye - they're right about this. If you acknowledge their presence and behavior and stand firm in that you won't accept that behavior, it's much more likely to end now before it gets really ugly. Speak in short sentences with no explanations. "No." "I am not interested." "Go away." If they aren't getting the hint, speak increasingly louder and louder. Be a broken record - repeat yourself over and other. Remember, no explanations - you don't owe it to anyone. "That is not acceptable behavior." "Go away." "If you come any closer, I will take that as an attack." "Back off." Take up a defensive posture - feet shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, hands up and ready to fight. Look and feel like you're ready to defend yourself. Make sure they go away before you resume doing whatever you were doing before. In other words, don't turn around and give them the opportunity to sneak up on you. If you have to defend yourself, do it to take them down. No polite little slaps. Hit to maim, preferably to knock unconscious. Hit with everything you've got. Call on all your inner anger and unleash it on the guy.
I took a weekend self-defense course (over two weekends, really) called Model Mugging. It's excellent. It works. And it doesn't take years to learn it. They advise taking brush up classes at least once a year. Short version of the story - I learned how to knock a guy unconscious in 15 seconds or less. Testicle explosions optional.
It's a sad reality that we need to know this, but that doesn't mean we should stick our heads in the sand about it. Face it as a reality, learn what we need to learn, and feel empowered because we do know how to protect ourselves. And live life the way we want to.
Yep, I think I'm done now. No, I'm not. One more thing. Raia, you did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong. There's nothing wrong with acting and reacting the way you did. You were fine.
Now I'm done. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
"Model Mugging" is a wonderful program - it was one of the first self-defense concepts to actually develop and use full-contact suits in training.
It also helped pioneer the concept of stress-training for learning combat skills.
If I remember the program correctly, the techniques are geared towards women with an emphasis on ground-fighting.
-Trevor
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Model Mugging certainly has a huge component of ground fighting - our legs are our strength, after all - but we're also taught to fight standing up. Well, let's be really clear - we're taught how to defend ourselves whether we're standing up, sitting down, on the ground, lying in bed, whatever.
And yes, they use Muggers. The Muggers are men wearing huge amounts of protective gear. It's necessary because we actually beat the crap out of them. The only way to learn how to defend yourself properly is by actually doing it - by practising all the moves fully, without hesitation, and with all your strength. If you do it partway but stop at the contact point, then in real life, you'll hesitate - stop at the contact point. With model mugging, you're actually beating on the guy to your hearts content - and they don't get injured.
The Muggers also use the same tactics as real muggers/rapists/etc use - they swear, yell, call names, and all that stuff. Basically, they don't want us to be frozen in a situation because we weren't ready. So why not get used to that part of a fight, too?
I wasn't sure if I'd do very well - I'm overweight and really out of shape. And I was sleep deprived at the time - hadn't been diagnosed with my sleep disorders yet. There was another woman in the class who couldn't use one arm because of abdominal problems. We had an 80 year old grandma. And we had a fifteen year old girl who might have weighed in at 85 pounds. Every single stinking one of us could do it.
One of the things they taught us was how to properly knee a guy in the crotch. When it was my turn, I ended up sending the guy a foot and a half into the air. Wow! Talk about empowering! From the ground, the 85 year old girl kicked her attacker, who was running at her, over her head to land four feet away.
I loved it. It was easily one of the best things I've ever done for myself. I lost a lot of my fear because of it. Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:Slapping is almost always a bad idea. It angers more than does harm. Generally, you will be smaller than the man in question, and if it gets physical your only advantage is the fact that he will not expect you to fight back effectively.
If you are going to hit, do it with the intent to put the person down. Follow through so they will stay down. Then get out of there.
While this is due to the fact that I haven't really been at Hatrack much lately, I had no clue before how much I like ElJay.
Raia - Regarding your comment about self-assurance, a real man loves this quality. Not only does it usually accompany competence and introspection (which a real man realizes = less work for him), but on a more primal level it's frequently a very tempting indication of how assertive one will be the bedroom. So, you know, it's not only cool, it's sexy.
The full realization of this generally only comes when you're well settled with the man you love and then all the men who find you attractive come out of the woodwork. At which time you lick your finger, sizzle it on your hip and remind the man you love how lucky he is, dagnabit.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Quidscribis, I've never heard of that sort of defense class before... that sounds really effective. I'll definitely have to read more about that.
Ralphie, I wasn't assertive at all! That's a great deal of the problem, is I was just sort of following along tamely behind, and not figuring anything out until the last moment, and then losing all sense of coherence the moment he really started coming on to me. So I don't know if I'd really call that assertive.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
It IS highly effective. I haven't had to use it in the sense of protecting myself from a physical attack - not since I took the course, that is. I could have used the skills I learned much earlier. However, they don't teach only how to protect yourself physically - they teach you how to protect yourself before it even reaches the physical attack stage. Part of that is setting boundaries and not allowing someone to cross it even verbally. It helps you to see your boundaries more clearly and identify when they're about to be crossed. It helps you to learn to trust your intuition. It helps you to be more assertive.
It just helps. In more ways than I can even mention. It's helped me defend against verbally abusive people, even.
It's something that I highly recommend. It's a phenomenal program.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
They don't have it here. If I did do it, I'd have to wait until next year, when I got back to the states.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Krav Maga. I'm pretty sure the college offers courses.
Anyway, I hadn't planned on commenting about your assertiveness or lack thereof, but since it still bothers you -
You. Did. Fine.
This was your first time encountering this situation and you were surprised, startled and mentally off-balance. All in all, you handled the situation very well.
If it happens again, you'll be better prepared to handle the situation because it won't be new or a surprise.
@The Proper Form for Kneeing a Man in the Crotch
Go grrl go! There actually is a technique to it beyond what people see in Hollywood flicks.
-Trevor
Posted by Tammy (Member # 4119) on :
((((Raia))))
I've very personal feelings about this topic. I'm not good when it comes to digging down deep for stuff. So I'll just leave it alone.
((((Raia))))
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
It seemed to have had a greater effect on me than I thought...
Today, I had to pass by the cafeteria where he picked me up twice, to go to classes... Both times, my heart stopped beating until I was all the way at the other side, and I kept nervously looking behind me, as though expecting him to pop out of the bushes. Whenever I blinked, or closed my eyes momentarily, I saw the traumatic picture of him leaning over me like that. I didn't realize passing by the cafeteria would make the whole thing seem so powerful. The second time, I actually had to sit down for a moment, because the fact that my heart had stopped had made me very dizzy, and I was seeing spots.
Please tell me this'll go away soon. Somebody slap me and tell me I'm overreacting. Why is the impact this great? Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I don't think you are overreacting. You went through a traumatic experience and strong reactions are normal.
Have you told anyone you trust in Israel what happened? I think it is important to have physical people there who actually know what took place as a safety precaution as much as anything.
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Your reaction is normal – it will lessen soon and eventually go away.
You aren’t overreacting, and you certainly don’t need to be slapped!
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
You are NOT over-reacting.
One of the horrible consequences of niceness being taken advantage of is that it's the girl that bears the brunt of the consequences. *hug* I'm sorry you had to go through that, I'm sorry that you encountered someone who was pushy like that. You're not over-reacting at all. I guess this is part of growing up - having to figure out that it's important to stay in public places. *hugs Raia*
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It won't necessarily go away soon, but it will go away. Don't try to avoid passing or going into the cafeteria in order to avoid the feeling, that will just make it worse. Confront the feeling, know you did nothing wrong, and hold your head up high. If you do see him, don't duck your head or look away. Stay strong, stay proud. Know he is a creep an beneath your notice.
I know it's easier said than done... but I've done it, and a lot of the other women here have, too. It gets better. Just give it time.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
AJ, I told my roommate... I wasn't actually planning on it, because I'm not crazy about her, but the minute she walked in the room she could see something had happened. So I told her. But I'm not sure she counts as a support pillar. She's gone half the week, and we're not that close. But I guess it's a good thing that she knows. Nobody else does. I don't really want to tell my parents... for several reasons.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
This thread has prompted conversations with a few people, and so far every girl I've talked to has had it happen. For many, it was one of the first or so "romantic" encounters they had. It's happened to everyone.
Keep your head held high and pay attention to your gut (you don't "owe" it to anyone to be nice at the expense of your own comfort).
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*sigh* I wish there was someone else you could tell, for your own safety, that is around more than half the week. I totally understand not wanting to tell your parents...I wouldn't either and mine never knew about the situation I mentioned before. I've gone to some interesting extremes to keep mine out of my personal life due to the fact no one in my family respects any personal boundaries.
I realize it isn't the U.S. but do they have counselling services there or a women's center? Even just talking to someone in a peer counselling setting might be helpful, and you'd have someone else "safe" who would be aware of the situation just in case.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I wish there was someone, too. I never told my parents either, and I'm still not sure why. I did, however, tell my dad about what happened last spring with the creepy neighbor coming into my apartment. He laughed, said he was proud of me, then looked at me like I came from another planet. Net positive, I guess.
Could you maybe tell a female professor?
[ November 03, 2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I don't know if there is... I haven't really had occasion to find one. But I honestly have no friends here whatsoever, not a single person I can tell about this. That's probably part of the reason I was so open with him, was because I was finally getting past wallowing in loneliness, and being friendly with someone. Making a friend. *sigh*
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I'm not nearly familiar enough with my professors to be comfortable enough to share this sort of thing with them.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Hmm...I think there must be a counseling center - you're at a school, right? Most higher education places have one, especially when students live on campus. Is there a web site for the place?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Raia, It's common to semi-consciously relive shocking traumatic experiences. The cafetria probably intensifies your recall and provkes a full on anxiety reaction. You're not over-reacting; you're just going through an entirely natural reaction. Many other people would be doing the exact same thing in the same situation.
This could go away on it's own, but you might be able to help it go away by dealing with the root problem, which sounds like in this case a power or rather fear of powerlessness issue. Don't avoid the problem (don't sit around obsessing over it either) but take steps to regain your sense of power. The Krav Magaw sounds like a good idea, but there are plenty of other paths to take.
If you continue having problems, your college should have counseling available specifically to deal with what you're going through. Something similar has no doubt happened to plenty of other people on your campus and they know how to help you get over it.
I want to emphasize that this isn't at all a question of you overreacting or of you being weak. This jackass laid a burden on you that you shouldn't have to deal with. If you go to counseling, they're not going somehow magically make you stronger. You don't need that. They're just going to show you how to lift the burden, as right now, your normal stress reactions may be counter-productive for this.
Posted by Gryphonesse (Member # 6651) on :
Hey kiddo -
the folks here are right on target. You did NOTHING wrong, you have NOTHING to be ashamed of (this is why you haven't told your folks?) and this person essentially assaulted you. I'm sure your school has a security office - you need to make a formal report to them. You're obviously traumatized and scared. And before you tell me "no, I don't want to make a big deal by going to security" keep in mind that you had the presence of mind to say NO and run away. If this guy is a predator (sounds like he is to me)he will be trying this on other women at your campus and the next one may not get away as cleanly as you did. I hate to be negative, but experience has made me this way. You can't be too nice about stopping this from happening again. Please go talk to someone in authority at your school as soon as possible. You've done nothing wrong, sweetie. You have every right to protect yourself and your classmates.
Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
(((((Raia)))) You're reactiosn are evry very normal, and if you can get some kind of counseling, perhaps peer counseling that can help.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Yeah, I don't know Israel, but I'd be suprised if there wasn't a women's center somewhere on campus where you could talk to people about what you're going through.
As people have said, your reaction is completely normal and something many other people have gone through. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It will most likely go away on its own, but why put up with it any longer than you have to? There are people out there who will be delighted to help.
To stand up for guys as a whole, I've had bred into me an atavistic loathing of guys who use their greater strength to try to dominate women. In my experience, they are all weak and cowardly. If I saw you in this situation and understood actually what was happening, I'd have been glad to take the guy to pieces. Any man worthy of the name would do the same.
You shouldn't have to, but if you get some training a la one of these self-defense programs, you could take one of these weaklings to pieces yourself.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
There are guys who look for those who see vulnerability and see someone who is less likely to fight back, and then there are guys who see vulnerability and see someone to respect and be careful with.
The existence of the first kind does not preclude the existence of the second kind. Blessedly.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
May I offer another view on telling your parents? You, of course, know them best, but check this out.
I had a summer job when I was about 14, maybe 13. I rode my bike to and from work. One day, I heard another bike behind me on my way home. It squeaked. I was on a hill, riding up... the squeaking got faster, and the bike caught up with me. While passing, the man/boy riding it reached out and grabbed my butt and then my chest. He rode on past, and turned the next corner, which put him on a downhill, and sped away.
I was very startled when it happened, and didn't really have time to react or get a good look at him. I was hoping it was an isolated event, and did not change my route home the next day.
I was at about the same spot on the hill when I heard the squeaking again. I tried to speed up, so he couldn't catch me. If I could just make it to that corner, I'd be on a flat section near a business, and could get away. No chance. This time as he went by and grabbed me I kicked out at his bike... didn't quite knock it over, but I came close.
The next day I went home a different way. Didn't say a word to my parents. I was very shook up, and embarassed, but mostly it was because I didn't want them to worry about me and not let me go out on my own anymore. I felt like I should be able to handle it myself. I thought they'd make me quit my job, and I wouldn't have my own money any more.
Years later, when I was an adult and out on my own my mom and I were taking a road trip together. It was at night, and we were talking quietly, and the issue of harassment came up. I told her about what had happened.
She asked why I hadn't told her at the time, and I replied because I thought they'd make me quit my job. She said they could have called the police, and had someone waiting the next day and caught the guy. Since he'd done it twice in a row, he probably was there the next day, too. The idea had never even crossed my mind.
The situations, I know, are very different. In mine the activity was clearly illegal. In yours, while clearly wrong, he could argue it was a misunderstanding. And you have no need or desire to entrap this guy, or way to do it. In my case, it would have been hard to put myself in that situation again, but how wonderful to see him arrested for it!
But my point is, your parents might not react the way you think they will. They've experienced the world, and they know that they can't shield you from everything. But they may be able to provide you with support and options you haven't considered on your own. And if I could go back and do it again, it would be worth telling just to have my mother hold me and comfort me. I was shaken up for days. I'm almost crying now just remembering it. Your first experience like this stays with you, probably for the rest of your life. You keep living, it's all you can do. But don't cut out the people who love and care for you most out of a desire to protect them or maintain your independance. It's not worth it.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
ElJay, I probably wasn't clear enough in my last post. I agree if she could possibly tell her parents it would probably be a Good Thing. But if she feels she can't (a feeling I very much understand) then she needs to take the initiative to protect herself, and tell someone else, and create an alternative dependable support network for a crisis. It isn't necessarily easy, but it is doable. Even in a place where you don't know many people.
AJ
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Oh, totally AJ. And I completely understand your reasons for not letting your family get too involved in your personal life. But I think you're probably in a unique situation. (Thank goodness!)
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
That makes a certain amount of sense, but not wanting them to imprison me in the house and not let me get out (although a fear) isn't the only reason I don't want to tell them.
I can envision their reactions completely: My mom would freak out, and look like a house had fallen on her, scaring my little sister and anyone else she happened to come into contact with. She'd probably tell a bunch of people how I was "almost raped" or something, and then do her Jewish mother bit and not let me move without her knowing exactly where I am, who I'm with, and what I'm doing. My sister, once having been scared, would probably find out about all of this (at a much exaggerated version), and freak out too, and probably start crying, and I'd feel absolutely horrible. My sister is eleven, and shouldn't have to be exposed to things like this. Not only that, but my mom would start the whole "I KNEW you weren't old enough to be living out of the house yet... that's it, you're staying here. You're not ready to face the world." thing, too.
My dad would laugh... he wouldn't take it seriously at all, and start lecturing me on how I don't need to take it to heart like this. That would also make me feel utterly awful, not to mention an idiot, for being so affected by all of this. Later, once my dad had stopped laughing (though I would still be very offended), he would call me, and say that maybe it's more serious than he thought, that I should come home to my parents' house, for a while... that he doesn't think there's anything to worry about, but that I shouldn't do certain things. He would also have been lectured by my mother at this point, who would tell him she's scared and doesn't want me doing anything anywhere. He might not agree, but my mom is a Jewish mother... so he'd be persuaded. He would have a fabulous time telling all his friends about what happened to me, and then, not only would I get his goading, but all of them would contact me (or a few) with "so, I hear you were almost raped. Sorry. How are classes?"
I don't know if you can see why I don't want to tell my parents, but I don't. I really don't.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
That is exactly how I thought my parents would react.
And you know what? They might have. I didn't tell them, so I don't know. And yours might, too. You certainly know them better than I do.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Wow. Fair enough. *hug* My dad laughed, too, when I told him about the incident last spring. I have no idea why.
I like the idea of the counseling center, though - if only to have someone else there in Isreal know about it.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
But here's the thing Raia, you can use them as your safety net without them knowing it (I have with mine on occasion). Do tell them where you are going and what you are doing, even if they don't ask. Not necessarily all the time, but enough that they *could* track you down if something happened. And while they will always probably be paranoid, you will be heading them off at the pass. You will be volunteering so much information so frequently, that if you decide not to tell them something they won't think to pry (well they still might but you can get away with something more frequently than otherwise), because they think they already know everything about you.
AJ
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I don't think that would work. They just wouldn't let me go anywhere.
My parents are really insane, and really Jewish. They're not normal, like most parents. Have you seen "My Big Fat Greek Wedding"? Toula's family in that movie REALLY reminded me of mine a lot of the time. It was kind of creepy, actually... how many similarities I found between my dilemma and Toula's. Our families are so alike that it's really scary.
And you know how she wasn't allowed to date at age 30? Well, I can date, but that same thing applies here, if they found out something like this, they would not just take over my life, but they would make sure it didn't leave their apartment.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Raia. My parents are a lot like that too. Here's the facts: If you are 18, you are a legal adult. They can't control you. You have to do the cost-benefit analysis for yourself. Do the benefits you get from staying on good terms with them outweigh the costs you pay or not?
I have no pity for anyone who isn't prepared to earn their own way in the world without parental support after the age of 18. I was prepared to do so to be independent and I expected the sacrifices to be far greater than the ones I actually made. (Though some might call living in Oklahoma a sacrifices) But I *earned* my scholarship to college. My parents didn't pay my way. I could have completely survived without them had it been necessary.
I paid a *huge* emotional cost trying to keep them happy for as long as I did even though I was basically independent. It wasn't worth it. Yeah it hurts that I'm not as close to them as I want to be, but the fact is I was *never* close to them. I wanted to believe they were becasue I *wanted* them to be normal like everyone else's parents but they weren't. When it comes down to it truly didn't care about what I thought nor did they respect my feelings.
Do I still love them yes. Is there still some pain there? Yes. Do I regret not letting them dictate my life when the costs got too high? Not for a minute.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
The whole thing though is IMO, if you want to live your life as an adult woman, independent of your parents you have be able to develop the networks of people outside of them that care for you. Hatrack is always here for you and I know you have good friends in Bloomington, but you have to be able to quickly create them in new situations like a foreign country. It's a survival skill. Not an easy one, but necessary for a woman in today's world. It's as much of a part of being an adult as anything else.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs Raia* This bites.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
(((Raia)))
Lots of great support here for you. And I think katharina is right -- most women deal with this at some time. And I think most of us deal with others' responses that may not be as understanding of the impact as we would like.
While I appreciate the support of the Good Guys here that would beat him up for you (and I agree with katharina -- again! not surprising -- that there are many Good Guys, despite the bad ones), I think it is really important for you to be in charge of this. Who you tell, what you do. And I think Mr.Squicky was spot-on regarding the importance of you taking whatever steps you choose to establish your own power and safety.
You know, if you aren't up to looking for help, some of us here could do websearches or make long-distance calls to see if we can locate a place for you to go talk about this, or to find resources. Your name need never come it -- it could just be a fact-finding mission.
(((Raia)))
The shock and trembling passes with time and distance. you will remember this, though, when another young woman relates a similar tale to you. You will know what to say to help her.
(((Raia)))
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*sigh* I hope I wasn't too harsh. I do care about you Raia. My point is, that we live in a crappy world. There is always a certain amount of risk in just living. While it is perfectly normal to be upset by the traumatic event you endured, and you shouldn't have to have endured it. the only person you can be responsible for is yourself. We can't control the creeps out there. So you have to have a safety plan *for you*. And if you aren't going to tell your parents, than it is your responsibility to come up with your own action/safetly plan regardless of where you are. You will have to do it for most of your adult life anyway, so you might as well start now. Yeah, we live in a crappy world, but you've gotta protect yourself too. A lot of times a bit of selfishness is ok, cause no one else but you will be looking out for you.
AJ
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
wow... I take a few days off and the world ends...
Now Raia... all i have to say is, Your parents are insane and your mom's Jewish mother bit is enough alone to prevent you from telling. And I'm here when you need me... and so is Rhegars pickaxe.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Fear.
Realize what it is you are feeling and why.
When forcibly confronted with a situation in which you have little or no control, most people do feel afraid. That's a natural and dare I say healthy reaction.
But you have to come to terms with what you feel and why - and forgive yourself for being human.
As for the parent thing - don't tell them if you don't want to. There are plenty of pros and cons on either side of that particular fence.
We are always our own harshest critics.
-Trevor
Edit: For grammar
[ November 03, 2004, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote: Ralphie, I wasn't assertive at all! That's a great deal of the problem, is I was just sort of following along tamely behind, and not figuring anything out until the last moment, and then losing all sense of coherence the moment he really started coming on to me. So I don't know if I'd really call that assertive.
My apologies, Raia. I misunderstood the course of the conversation. (I'm losing my Hatrack/spidey-sense. )
Still, I'm pretty confident you'll resemble my sentiment as you become more comfortable in the skin of womanhood. No matter how irrelevant it is to this particular conversation.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: *sigh* I hope I wasn't too harsh. I do care about you Raia.
Oh, not at all. I understand. And I really appreciate all that you said, too! It made a lot of sense. Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Raia, my Hebrew (especially this early in my day) isn't up to decoding this page, but I think one of those links is for student counseling services, neh? (or are those all academic-related?)
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Well, it said there's a "Psychological Centre," and on Har HaTzofim it's in the Maiserdorf dorms (which btw, I have no idea how to find). I might try that rivka, thanks... I don't know. We'll see. I'll write down the number, anyway.
Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Hey Raia,
I once had a nasty run in with an Israeli classmate too. Rather than try and put the moves on me, though, he told everyone that I was madly in love with him (this was an international school, so the students were from all over.) I'd spoken to him a few times, would maybe have considered him a so-so friend. We weren't close, and I *very obviously* had a crush on someone else. Thing was, he seemed genuinely convinced that I was desperate to be with him and throughout two years of school, the rumor wouldn't die among his friends. I mean, long after I'd stopped talking to him, I'd still hear through the grapevine that I was after him. It was so stupid.
It's a common, but not at all nice, form of culture clash. I don't know how specifically we Americans differ from Israelis in this respect. Maybe we just give off different signals when we're friendly that these men think mean "I want so badly to be with you", but IMHO it's still an inexcusable arrogance.
My advice, for what its worth, is to start reaching out to your female classmates. See how they handle their relations with guys, and even ask them about this guy to see what their consensus is. Is he dangerous or just a loser with no social skills? Don't walk places alone if you can avoid it, even if it means tagging along with crowds you're not part of. American women are sometimes targets for... unwanted attentions, shall we say? And Model Mugging is great, even if you just read up on the technique. I took aikido from one of the guys who developed it and he told the story of one woman who successfully fought off a rapist after watching her friend's graduation ceremony from Model Mugging - she never had the class herself, just saw the methods.
[ November 04, 2004, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: OlavMah ]
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
You've gotten good advice here, Raia. Hope you're feeling better.
I've got a patient (50 years old, raised in Italy, married) who grabs my hand and tries to kiss my hand and says inappropriate things when I see him in the office. I don't know what to do about him. NO doesn't seem to phase him much. I don't have to see him again for 3 months, thank goodness.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
OlavMah, I *am* Israeli. I'm in the international school as well (we were probably in the same one actually... Mt. Scopus, Jerusalem?), but I'm Israeli. The guy was Israeli as well, he wasn't a student through the overseas school, he was just in the regular University. So much as the culture class thing makes sense to me, I'm not sure it really applied here, because we were definitely both from the same culture.
Theca, that's really scary... I'm sorry! Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
It's sad to think that almost no girl will grow to 20 without having this type of experiment, in a more or less creepy way. *sigh* I'm mostly happy to be a woman but that's one reason I could desire to be male.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Anna... I'm completely with you there. Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Well, then yeah, he's just a creep. Sorry, I assumed that when you said you'd go "back" to the States next year that meant that was where home was. I guess I assumed you were a dual citizen.
My international school was in the UK, actually. I'm afraid I had some not so great run ins with a few guys from different cultures, none of them evil people per se, just very... quick to read things the way they wanted to. I felt *very* foreign sometimes, what with my opinion that I should be able to be nice to someone without having them try and have their way with me.
It's too common. But there's nothing okay about it. You might also consider reporting the incident to campus security, or whatever the equivalent is. Because you are from this same culture, they should listen to you and take you seriously. (Emphasis on *should*).
[ November 04, 2004, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: OlavMah ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Well, you weren't entirely wrong. I did live in the states for a while before coming back here to study... and I am planning on going back next year, and I do mostly consider America home. But that doesn't alter the fact that I'm from here, and I'm well accustomed to the culture of Israel! It's in my blood, and my parents are Israelis, born and raised, so I get it from them as well. Not to mention that before I moved back here, I would visit once or twice a year, for a pretty long time. Posted by OlavMah (Member # 756) on :
Okay, I was gonna say, your English is extremely fluent for someone who hasn't lived in an English speaking country for an extended period of time. Having Israeli parents makes you pretty darn Israeli, though. The country can't have been founded too long before they were born!
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Haha, the country was founded AFTER they were born! My dad tells stories of the six day war (he was seven years old then), when the block of houses he lived in (where my grandfather still lives) was the only one in the entire neighborhood not to get hit by a bomb or something similar. *shudder*
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Raia,
Came late. Not much to add.
<hugs>
Jim
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*bump*
So, he called me a few hours ago...
I'd HONESTLY thought he'd forgotten about me by this point. It's been almost a week, and I thought that after what happened he wouldn't bother. I was obviously wrong. And the problem is, I don't know what he said... he has a really quiet voice, both in person and especially on the phone... so I couldn't hear or understand anything he said to me. I tried to be as cold as possible on the phone, but I have no idea if I consented to meeting him, or what... I honestly don't know. I hope I didn't agree to anything.
You know, I was completely getting over this, and then...
Now, all my previous fears and stuff are back. Crap.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
((((nini)))) aww sweetie we love you, hopefully it doesn't come up again.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Hey so maybe this guy thinks you're meeting up with him tomorrow, so what? I mean who cares if you're misleading him? He tried to KISS you. Don't just let that go by easily, that's serious.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
*HUG Raia*
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
((((Raia))))
That actually sounds kinda scary to me, too. You really need to tell him to not call you. And if he keeps doing it, I'd get the police (Or the Israeli equivalent) in on it.
edit: And don't be afraid of him. A person is nothing to be afraid of. Just stand your ground. And if it helps, I'll be praying for you (That is, if you don't mind)
[ November 14, 2004, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Boris ]
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Yea a person is nothing to be afraid of.
Because people never do anything bad.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Raia, you have GOT to go to the women's center (or whatever equivalent) of your school. Talk to a counselor who has experience with this sort of thing. You also need to enroll in at least one self-defense class.
A better response to the phone call would have been to say, "Look, (dude's name), what you did was completely inappropriate. I don't want to see you again, don't call me again, and stay away from me in the future." I can understand if it's not your nature to speak so directly (it's not in mine), but you have to force yourself. It takes confidence and assertiveness, and you need to tap into yours.
Please don't think I'm berating you - I just hate to hear you sounding so shook up.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
As a friend of mine is so fond of saying, "men have feelings - hurt them."
You didn't agree to a damned thing and he certainly can't hold you to anything even if you had.
If he insists on pressing the issue, explain as politely as you feel like that you have an objection to dating men who kiss like cold fish, never mind rude men who kiss like cold fish.
I have the sneaking suspicion he doesn't know how offended and bothered you feel and he doesn't have the social grace to realize a subtle, chilly brush-off for as often as he must receive them.
Then, take a rolled up newspaper to his nose.
-Trevor
Edit: What Ms. M said (firearms training? From a non-assertive person? )
I'm not sure a self-defense course would make you feel more comfortable in brushing off unwanted but still social advances, but I still highly recommend checking out the women's center and getting some input from the counselors available.
[ November 14, 2004, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Raia,
Can you change your number, or is it automatically publically listed by the school? You definitely don't have to deal with this and he shouldn't be calling you at all after all you've been through. I will add my voice to those saying you do need to report the behavior, especially since he's not going away.
Anna,
I saw, re-skimming this thread, where you wrote this:
quote:I'm mostly happy to be a woman but that's one reason I could desire to be male.
and thought I should point out that being male does not preclude you from going through this.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
I thought about getting my number changed, but I don't have my cell through a specific phone company... I got it through the university, so I don't know if I would be able to do that. I have it for this year, then I give it back. Plus, that's the only way people have to contact me, and half the country has my number... I don't know everyone who does. But if I suddenly change my number, and don't know who to contact to let them know, they have no other way of reaching me.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Don't change your number, but do go to the women's center on campus. *hugs Raia* This sucks, but unfortunately lots of people go through it, so they'll know how to help.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
You know, I was in class today, and I put my phone on "silent" rather than turn it off (which I do frequently, in case I receive a text message ), and about halfway through class, I glanced at my phone, and suddenly noticed that someone was ringing. Then it said "1 missed call"... and then it said "1 new voice message." I couldn't concentrate for the remainder of the class period, I didn't know if the message was from him or not. I was sitting there freaking out while the professor was talking. First thing I did the moment our professor released us (a few minutes later than usual, I might add... the world is against me!) was check the message... luckily, it was from my mom. I've never been so happy to hear her voice.
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Sorry, I was assuming he called your dorm room...
bad me.
[ November 15, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
TMedina, the reason that I suggested a self defense course is that I think it would give Raia more confidence and give her practice telling men to back off. I personally think that all women in college should take a semester- or year-long self-defense class (I also think that all colleges should offer them).
Also, non-assertive in social situations. Firearms training is not a social occassion.
Raia, it breaks my heart that this is disrupting your life so much. Please get help somewhere.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
quote:Raia, it breaks my heart that this is disrupting your life so much. Please get help somewhere.
I'll second that. I actually spent quite a bit of my weekend thinking about this situation, and about power and powerlessness in society, and how some very weak people, like this guy that's bugging Raia, try to latch on to others and suck their strength and power from them. They're like a particularly pathetic breed of vampire.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Noemon, you spent your weekend thinking about this? I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to spoil your weekend!
I really need to get over myself in this matter, I think... I doubt it's as bad as I'm making it out to be. I mean, yeah, it scared the crap out of me, but come on Raia... snap out of it. *slaps self in head*
I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm sorry everyone, I must be getting on your nerves. *hug Noemon* Sorry I spoiled your weekend, and everyone else, thank you for caring, but it was wrong of me to lay all of this on you. I'm so sorry.
*goes to bed miserable* Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
Raia, you're not on our nerves, we're concerned for your well-being. We want to be sure that you do what you need to so you can avoid further unpleasant experiences. Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
::Hugs Raia back::
Hey, you didn't spoil anything! I'm glad that you told us about this, and I can completely understand being freaked out by it. I didn't hesitate to come here for help when Christine seemed to be really sick, and I hope you won't hesitate to share things like this should they happen in the future. It upset you, and we're you're friends, so *of course* sharing it with us was appropriate.
It just bugs me to see this parasite trying to draw off your strength.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
ok, I'm figuring for about $1200 i can fly over there and kick this guys butt. Who wants to help pay for it?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Don't feel bad...
The other day some random guy did something slightly, mildly simular... mostly I was pissed...
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Just be clear that you aren't interested, and don't let him guilt you into meeting him or into being "friends". It is very possible that he has no clue how offended and scared you are of him, so you should be very clear about it if he calls again....and then tell him that you are calling security and filing a complaint if he calls again.
Then do it. Don't just say you will, follow through on it, so he will have no reason to think you are captivated by his charming ways.... Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Good Grief, Am I to understand that this person wanted to kiss you and tried to call you and you are losing your mind over it? What are you doing in college?
Wait until you pass out from winning a drinking contest in a slush storm on the way back from the West Side and are picked up by four fat girls and forced to satisfy their lust to get your clothing back.
That was traumatic....Good times
BC
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Bean Counter, what the crap are you talking about?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think you've picked just the word already, AJ.
Posted by kaioshin00 (Member # 3740) on :
quote: What are you doing in college?
If I'm not mistaken, I believe she is in college to earn some type of a degree.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Hey BC, I know you're a little slow on the uptake, but you could at least try reading her post first.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
[In all my years as Hatrack moderator, this post has gotten more complaints than any other. Out it goes -- and Bean Counter, if you persist in being insensitive and obnoxious you're going to follow it.]
[ November 15, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
Man. I was wrong about calling myself annoying when I first signed up...
Anyway, Raia, if you are sitting through class worrying about whether a single phone call was from this guy or not then you really need to make sure it's 100% resolved if he ever calls again. It isn't right for someone to have that kind of power over you. So just tell him what you think next time.
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Raia, sorry you've had to go through this.
When I was at the Hebrew University, I had a bad experience with a very pushy guy who kept coming to my dorm room. I wouldn't open the door to him, and eventually, he gave up.
quote:Haha, the country was founded AFTER they were born! My dad tells stories of the six day war (he was seven years old then), when the block of houses he lived in (where my grandfather still lives) was the only one in the entire neighborhood not to get hit by a bomb or something similar. *shudder*
Umm, the country was founded in 1948. The Six Day War was in 1967. Just saying. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:and then tell him that you are calling security and filing a complaint if he calls again.
I'm not sure I agree with this - the goal is disengagement. I think I'd lean toward telling him clearly you want no contact with him and then giving him none - not even to tell him off. If he starts stalking, then go to the police/security. Threats seem counter productive.
But YOU are the one there, and you have to rely on your intuition about the possible danger. If you think Kwea's advice is correct, go for it.
And BC, we've put up with a lot from you, but this is entirely unacceptable. Get the hell out of this thread.
Dagonee
Posted by whiskysunrise (Member # 6819) on :
Go with your gut feelings. For the most part they wont let you go wrong.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
[Deleted for general stupidity.]
[ November 15, 2004, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: KathrynHJanitor ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Your pain? It's not as much as I'd like you to be suffering right now. But I'm not proud of it.
The last thing Raia needs is some pissant ridiculing her reaction to this.
Dagonee
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
BC, you are a contempible little man. The best that you can do to feel big is to pick on someone who's going through a traumatic experience? Like all bullies, you are mistaking your weakness for strength.
It's almost a shame that BC's comments are likely to be modded out because I think they give a good example. Raia, BC is a weakling and an idiot. Certainly you're free to think whatever you want but if your thoughts are running along these lines just be aware that they're basicaly agreeing with a weakling and an idiot and are thus probably not all that accurate.
This isn't a matter of personal strength. You're having normal trauma reactions that are right now counter-productive to dealing with the stress. Given time, you'll get over this on your own, but with knowledgable people showing you different, more effective ways of dealing with the stress, you'll likely cut down on the time it'll take.
Two other really common reactions to situations like this is to feel guilt over burdening your friends and a sort of passivity. Again, natural reactions that so many people have, but they don't generally help you move forward. I don't think anyone here considers you a burden. The worst in that line is that maybe they're upset that they can't be more help.
Their eagerness to help is shared by a bunch of people who don't even know you. For myself, while I've always liked what I've seen of you, I wouldn't say we're friends. We're pretty much strangers, but I really do want to help. It's the way I'm put together. Knowing that people have to go through rough times, especially because of the stupid behavior of other people, hurts me, regardless of the specific situation. I look for chances to help as best I can at least in part because that makes me feel good. There are people who live right around you whose zeal to help and knowledge on how to do so are greater than mine. Trust me, letting them help out is no burden at all. It's almost a favor.
It's totally your choice what to do, but I'm saying don't make this choice out of guilt or fear or anything. Even if what you went through was objectively nothing to worry you (and it was), the simple fact is that it is bothering you and there are things you can do to severely reduce its effects. I'm just suggesting stuff that I think will probably help. It will actually make me feel good if it does help or even if it doesn't but you get past this some other way.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
BC, you are being an idiot of the highest degree. Stop it please... You cannot possibly understand what Raia has gone through because you have no clue what it is like to be a woman... It's not just some simple little incident in the eyes of a woman. Please silence yourself.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
If you can't change your number, can you get his number blocked? You can probably do this through your cell phone or your service provider.
Don't go easy on this guy just because he is a soft spoken, "shy" person. Sure, there are lots of shy guys whose only problem is their inability to understand basic social dynamics.
But there are people who are quiet on the outside, but a tempest of woman-hating rage on the inside. I've known guys like that. Guys who have been rejected by women all their life and finally snap when they get rejected by one woman too many. You don't want to take chances with people like that.
You're young Raia. Deep down inside, young people never think anything bad will happen to them.
Report this jerk as early as possible.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
In a bad situation you either get mad and react or you get scared and freeze. As a marine I was trained to react, as a man I think I had that tendency to begin with. If you do not want this mans attention then act out in some way to let him know. If you get in the habit or continue the habit of passivity, coming back here for approval you will always live in fear.
I see what Bean Counter was trying to do, though the concieted bastard (can I say that?) makes it look like he is just an ass. He wants you to get mad and taste it, roll it around on your tounge and then use it. He is probably just out of Basic where they grind your face in your tears until they turn to rage.
I am surprised none of you smart people told her this but the adrenaline rush that you felt, the fight or flight rush is a thing that you used well, you fled, if nescesarry you will fight, just do not freeze. Stop second guessing yourself and trust in the anger to put on your War Face and go with it. As a woman there is almost nothing you cannot get away with and almost no action that will be wrong. So go out with your head held high and trust your rage to see you through. The reason the experience marked you so much is the fear reaction causes the memory to intensify, it is more vivid because you survived the trauma and that means your brain wants to be sure to remember what you did right. (I was scared by the lion and I climbed the tree and I lived...) If you had more fright in your life it would not seem so powerful.
To Bean Counter: It would not hurt you to let them in on it after the fact, I would hate to see you get booted for being to clever for your own good. Good luck on your tour.
LCPL Bryant James E
PS I like the icons they are fun, sorry if I overuse them! Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: As a woman there is almost nothing you cannot get away with and almost no action that will be wrong.
Socially, perhaps, but you missed the part where he grabbed her. Physically, if a guy gets pissed at me and decided to take me down a notch, there's not that much I can do about it. So yea, her adrenaline should see her through yelling at him on the phone; but going out and seeking a physical confrontation would be asking for trouble.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Damn Marines, where are you Jar Head we need to go out for a beer!
Okay I got everybody mad to demonstrate correct action by making inaction unbearable, but I never cried in Basic! (Unless you count the Gas Chamber)
I was close to a girl who was not spooked by a guy, she was asked directions, dragged into a car, raped by two of the four men inside and then rescued by the police who caught up with them.
She had the courage to pull it together and have a great year in school, make friends and date, all because she just made it a few minutes in her life that she passed through instead of the central focus of her life. It became trivial and her courage actually taught me the same lesson. When it is done let it pass. Trust the lesson and put your attention elsewhere.
Attention is the coin of the universe, trauma fixes attention and steals your ability to achieve. It is fastest to splash water in the face of such fixation, not attempt to share it and increase its power.
BC
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
You realize that nothing you say is encouraging at all to anyone in this thread? If anything, it's making things much much worse. Don't try to tell us what we should or should not be scared of or upset about. It's not your place.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
First of all, BC, look up a bit, and note the warning.
Second of all, I feel very bad for your "friend" (not that you were much of a friend to her). Encouraging someone to live in denial is a cruel thing. Someday she will have to deal with it, and these things tend to get worse when not dealt with. Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Anyplace on a college campus a shrieking hellcat, clawing and screaming would be rescued in short order.
I would bet the guy is more scared of her being scared then she is scared. He is under a far stricter sentence then she is. Well in the states, I gather you are in some other country? Maybe they have different standards.
I got your e-mail BC, I will think about it. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Tell that to all the women on this thread who have been molested and raped.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
quote: I feel very bad for your "friend" (not that you were much of a friend to her).
Do not speak of things you know nothing of, it is for her to judge our relationship not someone with absolutly no information to build with. She did face it, then she stopped facing it. It is silly to 'face' such things forever. Would you have her Rapists rule her life? Make a random act of violence the definition of who she is?
quote: Anything can be dropped from your life just like that... It takes personal power to understand and act on this... a warrior does not need personal history, he has his impeccability.
Don Juan Matus
BC
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: Do not speak of things you know nothing of
Perhaps you should listen to your own advice?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
No KIDDING!
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Come on you guys. Don't you know post-traumatic stress only happens when you don't have enough courage?
Dagonee *I don't need the sarcasm tag, do I?
Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
Rape is not one of those things you can just ignore. It will effect your life forever. True you do not need to dwell, but dealing with it is important.
I don't think this guy is a huge threat, but it would be smart to talk to the university to see how they would recommend handling it. It also might be good to keep a friend around when possible as well as a charged cell phone. This strikes me as a very unpleasant situation, but not one that is extremely dangerous. It is always good to be safe though.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Oh lord...
So much to respond to, I seem to have been asleep during the most heated part of this discussion...
First thing's first: Bean Counter, I have no idea of most of what you said, as it was deleted by the mods by the time I got here. I do have some idea, however, because I think two of your posts did make it through the banning. While I don't mean to explode at you, I appreciate your concern in this issue, but I don't agree with what you are saying. Fine, you may tell me that now I have to shove off and find another crowd to whine to, if I'm not going to listen to what someone says to me, but I'm not sure how old you are if you think that the point of college is to get drunk and high, and spend the weekends screwing different girls because that's maybe what's shown in the films. College is about receiving an education, and furthering your knowledge... if I choose to become interested in boys, that's a side matter. If I choose to drink, I pay the consequences. But college is not just a big national orgy, it really honestly does have a purpose. I am here, in the Hebrew University to try and fulfill that purpose for myself, as are the 22,600 other students enrolled.
I can understand that some people might be gratified to have their education interrupted by some idiot who tries to pick them up, and makes them go through an experience that they have never gone through before. Some people might be excited by that. I am not one of them. The guy scared me, because nobody has ever done that around me before, and I didn't know how to handle it. When I thought I had gotten over that, he scared me once again in that he didn't forget about me, or choose not to pursue the girl who, to put it mildly, was less than enthusiastic about his proposition, but rather called me, almost two weeks later, on a phone number he probably knows full well he shouldn't be using. Maybe I'm doing the wrong thing and should be very friendly to him, because he is, after all, a misunderstood boy who just wants to be friends, and is upset because he's constantly rejected. But I personally see it as borderline stalking, and it truly frightens me that he has not yet given up on me, even after I clearly indicated that I did not appreciate him doing what he was doing, and that I was very happily with someone else.
*breathe* Now, to respond to what some other people said:
Noemon: Thank you. Really, thank you. I just felt awful when I saw that I had done that, because after all, you don't know me, and for me to impose on your weekend like that... I was just having a really rough day yesterday (so what else is new, right?), and then I got back and saw that, and just lost my mind. I'm really glad you care about me (and this part goes for all of you), and thank you so much. I don't know where I'd be without you.
Ela: *thwap self* I TOLD you I was tired! I did know that, I'm just stupid. Wow, I can't believe I said that!
Squick: Thanks. I think what you said is very sensible, and thank you for clearing my head a little. While I do realize that not everyone in the world is good, and that it's ok to unload this stuff on other people, sometimes it's a little hard to believe, as Beren said, that something like this (that happened to me) could have such a strong effect. We all feel that we're building up an immunity to such feelings from watching films, and reading books, and from personal stories from other people. It's unfortunate, but people think that. What's even more unfortunate is that it's not even remotely true, and quite the opposite.
Jar Head: There are many actions that are "wrong" if performed by women; both actions that men get condemned for as well, but also ones that are gender-specific to women. I'm taking a womens' studies class three hours a week... don't make me get started here. Women, while getting some reprieve from certain things that men don't, have troubles of their own. I can't think how many times in today's society I think how unfair it is that a man can get away with something, but the minute a woman tries, she gets blasted by the state. Much of that is probably due to the fact that a percentage of men perceive women as that, as a group of people who won't get in trouble, so it's "up to the boys" to make sure they can find things that will put them above the female population.
Intel, Stryker, Syn, Kwea, AJ, fugu, blacwolve, kaioshin, Troub, Boris, Dag, whisky, Beren, rivka, RRR, and Allegra: I just want to thank you all for listening to me whine. I don't want to reopen the argument by answering whether or not I should have taken this to Hatrack, as was discussed in some length by all of you while I was sleeping last night... but you really are wonderful friends. And each and every one of your posts made me feel a little bit better. *hugs to all of you* Thanks a million. Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
(((Raia)))
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
So I, uh, saw him today.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
What did you do? Were you in public?
I'm really starting to worry about you, Raia.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Just see, or did you talk? Are you OK?
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How'd it go?
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:Well, it said there's a "Psychological Centre," and on Har HaTzofim it's in the Maiserdorf dorms (which btw, I have no idea how to find). I might try that rivka, thanks... I don't know. We'll see. I'll write down the number, anyway.
Raia, I hope you find your way to getting some counseling and/or talking with campus security. This is definitely not over-reacting -- it is hard, hard stuff, and it messes with your sense of self and well-being.
Hatrack is always here and open for you, but there is not much we can do but listen. You could ease our minds a bit by getting some help where you are. But of course, what we can do from here , we will. Take good care of yourself.
(((Raia)))
[ November 16, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Luckily, it was in public... I was in the bookstore, buying a few things that I needed for class, and suddenly I heard "hey Shani!" behind me... I turned around... and it was him.
My initial reaction was "aaaaaaah!" but thankfully I didn't say that out loud. Apparently my cold countenance over the phone came across somewhat. He seemed somewhat shy (but then he was somewhat shy the first time as well, so that doesn't mean anything). He tried to chat and joke with me, and I kept getting intentionally distracted by things on the shelves. The whole encounter was very short, but he was obviously not through with trying to get to me when he left. And I wasn't going to run after him specifically to tell him I want him to leave me alone... that would have served an opposite purpose.
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Raia, you need to be clear with him. By just being “distracted” you leave him an out for not taking the hint. I know it’s hard, and I know it seems rude, but if you really want no contact, when he tries to talk to you again you need to say, “I do not want to talk to you. Do not call me.”
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I agree with dkw -- but I also would agree with Raia that probably a public book store is not an easy place to do it. I probably wouldn't tell a guy off in public, even in a low voice, if there were other people around. Too much risk of HIM making a scene.
Farmgirl
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
The problem is, he keeps taking me by surprise. If I could prepare or something, or if I knew I was supposed to see him, I wouldn't turn into such an incompetent mess. I just completely lose my balance when I'm taken by surprise like that.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I agree with dkw. You are not being mean or rude by being clear; you are being honest. I know it's hard to do. You will be just as sweet after, but you won't be scared anymore.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote: By just being “distracted” you leave him an out for not taking the hint.
There is no clearer way to say it, and there is nobody to do it but you.
Dana is right -- this is so hard. Years of training have to be bucked. But your choices are either to be (what feels like) rude or to continue to have to deal with him like this.
Not being clear is also a choice. I remember hoping that if I just slid out of sight, he would go away. Eventually get the hint. But it doesn't work that way.
This is another reason why getting the appropriate persons involved in your situation at your campus would be ideal. Not only will you find out that this goes on all the time (sad, but true), but you also get positive reinforcement for taking the necessary steps.
I don't want to make you feel like you can't post here unless you do what I (or anyone else) thinks you should. You don't need that pressure, too! But I'm pretty sure nothing is going to change, unless it escalates, until this gets tackled head on.
I wish it were different.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
This might sound corny, but role-playing might help you prepare yourself. Since you don't want to seek him out, the statement is going to have to be made at a time of his choosing, not yours.
"<name>, I don't want to see, talk to, or have any other contact with you at any time in the future. This is not a temporary wish, nor one which anything you say can change. Thank you for respecting me enough to comply."
Wait a few sentences for him to agree. If he says nothing, simply say "Goodbye" and walk away. If he asks why, say "It doesn't matter. This is what I want." If he tries to convince you otherwise, simply say, "No thank you" and walk away.
You would need to roleplay all possible outcomes and your responses. And you must not fear a scene. If he makes one, he's merely confirming your choice.
Edit: And it's likely a counselor will know how to do this with you.
Dagonee
[ November 16, 2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I was just about to suggest the role playing. Good idea Dag.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*nod* You're probably right.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs Raia*
Posted by Jim-Me (Member # 6426) on :
Yep, they are, but don't neglect the undercurrent to all these messages:
We all know it's much easier for us to stand here and advise than it is for you to stand there and do.
[ November 16, 2004, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Jim-Me ]
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
(((Raia)))
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
Very true. And like Sara said, the last thing you need is to feel pressure from us to do what we say. You've got some very wise people here offering you good advice, make no mistake, but don't feel like any of us are trying to push you around.
Posted by Johnny Lee Wombat (Member # 7021) on :
I do not get why this is necessary at this point. From reading this thread, it seems like this is just a clueless guy who might be infatuated with Raia and doesn't know that she doesn't like him back. Because Raia isn't being clear about how she feels, she is causing the problem in this situation.
quote: Raia, I hope you find your way to getting some counseling and/or talking with campus security.
As for talking with campus security and getting 'counseling'...uh, suffice to say that I think these are probably not warranted. I hope some guy trying to kiss you doesn't mean you need 'counselling', though I guess if you feel like you need it because of this, I'm certainly not going to say you shouldn't get it. And how can you in good conscience report this guy to campus security before you make sure he understands the situation? What are you going to tell them? "He tried to kiss me, I said 'no', and then he stopped. I think he still likes me, but I just can't be bothered to tell him straight up how I feel. Can you look into this?"
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Johnny, you don't understand, and you're being remarkably callous and uncivilized.
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
(((((Raia))))) I'm sorry I didn't see this thread sooner.
Just ignoring them when they try to talk to you doesn't always work. Being cold, and "rude" takes time to really have an affect, too. You need to just tell him to leave you alone, and that you don't want him contacting you anymore. That's probably the best thing you could do right now. If you're still upset, you should really talk to someone about it.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:What bothers me is that he either didn't pick up on or ignored some very serious signals from her. He held her to him as she was trying to pull away -- and this was a woman he just met, within the last hour.
He held down a woman trying to get away -- a woman he had just met within the last hour or two.
If anyone thinks that is okay or just harmless fun, then they weren't raised right.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Johnny, he didn't just try to kiss her. He took her to a remote rea where it would be hard for her to get help, grabbed her, and tried to kiss her as she was obviously trying to get away from him. That's entirely different.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:And how can you in good conscience report this guy to campus security before you make sure he understands the situation? What are you going to tell them? "He tried to kiss me, I said 'no', and then he stopped. I think he still likes me, but I just can't be bothered to tell him straight up how I feel. Can you look into this?"
I would imagine one would call and ask to speak to someone for advice about how to handle an incident, then describe the incident, then ask for advice from a professional.
What is so weird or difficult about that, Johnny? Those I know who work in campus security would love to be called before something escalates, and they would generally offer very good advice.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You could try giving him the web address of this thread the next time you see him.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
(((Raia)))
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Oh joy.
Without mentioning either of the two trolls...
Raia - you have his number, yes?
Rehease a couple of times what you want to say to him and then call him.
Tell him, clearly and in no uncertain terms, that you do not want to speak to him again. Period.
If he approaches you in public, make eye contact and tell him to go away.
But at the end of the day, you have to do what feels right to you and remember, be critical of your choices because in analyzing our mistakes, we can learn valuable lessons. But being critical of yourself is a waste of time and energy.
-Trevor
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Raia, I'm not entirely certain how you feel about this, but I can guess. I've had some very needy boys follow me around, and I know how hard it is to say 'no' to them. I don't want to make a scene or hurt their feelings. However, there are two people's feelings involved in this: yours as well as his. And weighing your feelings of fear against his feelings of rejection, yours win out. You don't have to be nasty, just firm. Remember that whatever his emotional reaction to this is, you are probably hurting him way less than he is hurting you. And it's ultimately his problem for being so aggressive.
Stay safe, and keep us updated if it helps you.
[ November 17, 2004, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: Shigosei ]
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: Raia - you have his number, yes?
No.
And for some odd reason that I have not yet figured out, my cell phone blocks caller ID if the number is in Jerusalem. It's really weird, I can see the number if it's from out of town, but if the number is in Jerusalem, it's blocked. So I can't figure out his number, either.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Do you know his full name? Does your university have a directory?
Otherwise, I guess you'll just have to be prepared the next time he calls you. Good luck with that.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
No, and no (I know the University doesn't have a directory, because I looked into that the moment I heard Natalie Portman might be on campus. They only have a staff directory). And I only know his first name, and it's Yuval, one of the most common boys' names in this country.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
You know, I was serious about pointing him to this thread.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Shigosei makes a good point - well beyond anything you might actually say to him, this is a good chance to face your fears and talk to a mirror.
Even if I never have a chance to say what I'm thinking, I do find venting and articulating what I would like to say helps me expel the emotional turmoil boiling in the background.
And you have the added benefit of having given some thought to what you'd like to say to him - besides, of course, "ick."
-Trevor
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
Tom: If this man really is a stalker, that would not be fun.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Even if he isn't a stalker, I don't think introducing him to a forum in which Raia spends so much time would do anything for the comfort of either of them.
Anyway, Raia, I hope you get this settled both in your mind and with the individual. Take as much time and as desperate a measure as you feel you need to. As long as you don't kill the guy, I'll (and though I don't like to speak for others, I'm sure we'll) support your decision and action.
[ November 17, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Da_Goat ]
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
She might print it and give it to him if they meet again.
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Maybe some posts. The whole topic is, like, 50 pages in the printer-friendly version, and it would be pretty tedious to cut the link from the bottom of every page.
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
If the guy has any control issues, showing him how much emotional effect he has on Raia would probably be a bad idea. he might easily take it as evidence that she "secretly" likes him. I don't know that he's sociopathic, just that the possibility exists and this could exacerbate the situation.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
*gets suitcase out of closet*
*puts tire Iron in*
I'm currently just 1200 dollars short of making the flight... I've already packed...
Ok, on a serious note.
This guy is bad news, we've established that.
He has social issue, once again, already established.
He either doesn't know he's getting a hint, or is intentionally ignoring it. If he calls, tell him, "I don't like you and i'd apreciate if you'd leave me alone." If he does it again, file a complaint with campus security.
And if he does it a third time. I'm comming over there and playing over protective big brother... And you've seen how I am when I get that way.
(((Raia))) (((Anyone who'll pay for my plane ticket))) (((Everyone who's posted on this thread, excluding the one moron)))
[ November 17, 2004, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
If the guy really is a stalker, then printing this thread out, or even part of the thread, may be enough to lead to Hatrack via a Google search.
Though I'm sure we could help Raia come up with a statement that she could say to him/give him next time he contacts her. As long as he doesn't know it's from a forum, he probably won't think to search for it.
Posted by MaydayDesiax (Member # 5012) on :
(((((Raia)))))
I still believe what I told you, little one--call the cops next time he calls you. Anti-stalking laws were established for a reason.
I also would recomend therapy--it might give you a little bit of self-confidence (always a plus). It's worked very well for me. You have my email and my phone numbers, if you need me, and I'm avaliable 24/7.
To our trolls, leave. Now. You're not only upseting a few people, but you're also proving two points: that you are a) insensitive to other people and b) that you despererately need attention. Go find someone else to fill the void in your life, be it between your ears or where your heart should be.
[ November 17, 2004, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: MaydayDesiax ]
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
Whoa, that was mean and awesome. Mayday, if I ever need to tell somebody off, I'm asking you to write the letter. Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
OMG! (((((((((((raia))))))))))))) I only just now saw this thread and have spent the evening reading it all. (((((((((((raia))))))))))))
Im sorry this happend to you raia. Most of what people have said is apsolutly dead on. im only going to repeat what every one (well, almost everyone) eles has said. (i dont think JLW, ment bad... espesually compared to BC... but still...).
Please go to the health/ counsoling center please . Its not a bad idea to go anyway. They could help you with a lot of things, not just what this jerk has done. Figure out a short, sweet statement for him next time he call (even if you cant hear what he is saying) or sees you. Please Please Please If not for yourself, then for the next woman youll probably have to comphort someday when this happens to them.
We all love you and wish we could do this and make it easyer for you, but we cant. This is something you have to do for yourself.
(((((((((((((((raia))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((raia)))))))))))))))) Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I echo Fiona, you could really gain by going to the counseling center anyway, so just think of this as extra incentive.
Posted by policyvote (Member # 3044) on :
Raia, a couple of things.
First, my wife (and her best friend, one of my closest friends) was in a situation both simliar and dissimilar a few years back. My wife was taking Russian, and her pre-assigned study partner was shy, just like she is. After a while, they started talking, and she said he seemed really shy and lonely, and felt really bad for him.
Well, pretty soon he started hitting on her, following her everywhere, calling her all the time, etc. Now, my wife and I were not married at the time, but we'd been dating for five years and it was pretty obvious where things were going. That didn't slow him down . . .
I tried to make my wife tell him to go away, but she said that would be like "kicking a puppy". This guy basically stalked both my wife and her best friend (who is engaged to MY best friend--the four of us are very tight) for two years. The whole time, the girls refused to flat-out tell him off because they didn't want to be mean. It wasn't until this guy actually moved to Russia that he stopped stalking them . . . he met a nice Russian girl and settled down.
The second thing is that there was something about this guy that I recognized in my young self. Basically, guys who are "late bloomers" socially all go through this at some point. They don't have any female friends, they never really interacted with girls before, and suddenly they're out there in the world. All they have to go on is what they've seen in the movies--where the girl always picks the smart, sensitive, nice guy over the jerky jock she's dating, and it's only five minutes from "Hello!" to "I am completely in love with you!" I understood where the guy was coming from, because I felt the same way when I was in junior high. I was smart, I was sensitive, I wanted a serious relationship . . . it just never occured to me that girls have feelings too. They don't just automatically fall for the first smart, sensitive guy they come across! The watershed moment for me was when a girl I didn't like had a crush on me. It was like, "Wow, now I understand what every girl who ever shot me down felt like!"
This guy may be freaky, he may be a stalker, or he may just be shy and inexperienced with girls. Be FIRM, be CLEAR, and DO NOT WAVER. You don't have to kick him in the family jewels, just set your boundaries and don't be shy about it. If you decide he might not be a bad friend, just be CLEAR and CONSISTENT that you are not, and will not, be interested in him romantically. If you never want to see him again, be FIRM and CLEAR and explain yourself why, so that this dude doesn't spend his whole life "making his move" five minutes after meeting a girl, and consequently dying alone.
Peace policy
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
And DON'T APOLOGIZE for not liking him, for not being in love with him, for not wanting to be his friend, or anything else. You don't owe him an apology. Period.
I've said it before, and I'm going to say it again. Use short sentences. The same ones over and over again until it gets through. "I'm not interested. Leave me alone. I don't want to talk to you ever again." Repeat and repeat until he gets it. No explanations, no apologies. Just short sentences.
You can do this, Raia! Believe in yourself!
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
policyvote, that was an excellent post. Very inciteful and I think gives an accurate perception of what this guy might be like.
I think we ALL go through that phase (or most of us anyway).
And we grow out of it or get help, and then grow out of it. Or rather we should.
Raia
The guy is bothering you, that should be enough for him, Raia. If he's actually interested in being a human being, he would have paid attention to your reactions in the first place and taken better care (of you, of himeself, etc.).
Shyness and social ineptitude do not give people an excuse to run roughshod over others.
And really, this guy is good practice. I agree with others here that have suggested seeking some counseling for yourself. Learning some better coping strategies (better as in more effective, more assertive) is something you should do for your own development. This kind of stuff will keep happening to you. You can handle it. But maybe you need some ideas. It's going to happen when you least expect it, on the job with your "happily married" boss, at conferences, when you do a favor for a neighbor, and on and on. Learning how to head the situations off and/or react to them with the right mix of assertiveness and calm resolution will save you more than just the immediate assault. It can project an image of yourself to the world of confidence and no-nonsense that in itself becomes a bulwark against these unwanted, demeaning and abusive advances.
I mean, if you think about it, this is an expression of disrespect for you. He is assuming that you are easy or stupid. And if you react in a naive fashion he can (and will) interpret that as interest on your part. He'll convince himself that you're just playing the coy seduction "game" and he'll never quit.
More importantly, if that is your mechanism for dealing with cads and curs (to use the old but accurate terms), this kind of thing will keep happening to you.
I'm a little bit blunt here and I do apologize if I hurt your feelings at all. But in my opinion you need to make some conscious choices not just about this guy but about how you are going to deal with men (and even some women) as you progress through your life.
First time through, this can be scary, but I promise you that the strategies will help and that you aren't a bad person for shutting down inappropriate advances of insensitive jerks.
I also promise you that it doesn't make you "cold" or blocked from ever accepting the advances of a truly nice, respectful guy (should you really want that). Nice guys expect the woman to take some measure of control over the pace and direction of a relationship. It becomes mutually directed soon enough, but in the beginning I'd say most men are willing to stop at an expression of interest without all the overt stuff this guy is pulling.
A thought to ponder. In my opinion this situation has already gotten out of control. One of you is going to control it. Will it be him or you? Will you let him keep "suprising" you or will you find a way to stop him?
Creeps like this don't become calmer over time, Raia. Most of them get worse. Some of them get dangerous. Another thing a counselor can do is help you figure out what you need to do to protect yourself and if you should call campus security.
Posted by larisse (Member # 2221) on :
{{{{Raia}}}}
I hope things are going better for you in this situation. Let me reiterate what many others in this thread have already pointed out (with the few exceptions who are well known by now), you did nothing wrong.
There have been many opinions about whether or not this guy was just a plain creep or a awkward, socially inept young man who is in great need of learning some social graces. Although I don't think it is your responsibility to teach him these social graces, perhaps you could look at asserting yourself and letting him know in no uncertain terms you are not interested in him as his first lesson. Hopefully, he is a fast learner. If he turns out to be the former, than kick him to the curb.
Either way, you do not deserve to be put in the position you are in now.
***Story Time*** My own experiences have not been as traumatic as your's, but a friend of mine, who was married, got involved with young man. At first, she liked his advances and flattery in no small part because her marriage was not doing very well. This young man saw her vulnerability and exploited it. Many of us, her friends, saw this man as a creep, but she did not see it at first. As her marriage fell apart, the young man increased his advances, sending her flowers on Valentine's Day and other gifts. She saw these gestures as sweet, but soon realized that by doing so, there was no way she could explain the gifts away to her husband. When she tried to break it off, he became increasingly agitated and took to following her around campus and driving by her house, even when her husband was around.
We tried helping her out by being around her at all times when she was on campus. We made it our business, as her friends, to sit with her at lunch times, walk with her to classes and her car, and just pull up a chair if we saw him try to talk to her. Needless to say, he was not fond of us. In fact, we later learned that he had never really been fond of any of us because we "monopolized" her time. (I had kind of sensed these vibes long before hand and had many conversations with another friend about these feelings. She also had gotten the same vibes from this guy. And, we were both worried about her situation. Sidenote: These bad vibes became very real when he once told all of us, while sitting at lunch, that he could come up behind us and snap our necks if he wanted to and no one would be able to stop him in time. He claimed to have learned this in the military. Needless to say, the scathing looks we all gave him made him quickly retract and claim it was a joke. My friend was not there at the time so she believed his version of the story for the longest time until his behavior changed towards her.)
After awhile, he did stop stalking her, but it wasn't because of us or her efforts. (Even with all the making her feel uncomfortable and down right scared, she refused to be rude to him.) We later found out the reason he stopped stalking her was because she finally got the courage to tell her husband, who was not the nicest guy, but turned out to be a prince in this situation. He basically found the guy and told him in no uncertain terms to stop trying to contact his wife. Apparently it was so affective that he stopped attending college. (I know... Soprano moment perhaps.)
So what was my point... oh right. Telling someone... anyone in authority can only help your situation, even if it is just for backup. This guy may not be as creepy as the one my friend was involved in, but it is better to be safe than sorry. Please stay safe.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
My definition of "shy" does not include restraining a woman who is trying to get away within hours of just meeting her.
He is also eight years older than Raia. If this is a phase, it is a heckuva long one.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
(Before I respond, I just want to say that the entire university internet system was down until about ten minutes ago, so that's why it seems as though I've vanished. But I'm here, and alive and well.)
I agree with the people who said not to link him to Hatrack, or to in any way affiliate him with it. If he is indeed stalking me (or even if he isn't, but if he still has some bizarre infatuation), I think that would be very bad. It could also progress to getting other people in trouble, besides myself, which is the last thing that I want.
I really am planning on telling him off next time he attempts to contact me, but he just keeps taking me by surprise. I know this is going to keep happening, and it's unlikely that he'll catch me at a point where I'm ready for him, but this is my first experience with this situation. Once I get over the initial shock of hearing his voice, or seeing his face, this will be easier... though of course I will try to get to the point of telling him to leave me alone BEFORE seeing his face everywhere becomes a daily occurrence!
quote: A thought to ponder. In my opinion this situation has already gotten out of control. One of you is going to control it. Will it be him or you? Will you let him keep "suprising" you or will you find a way to stop him?
This post, more than many of the others, really made me think... Bob, that's really true. I mean, of course, all of your posts made me think, and you all give me excellent advice, but when we get down to brass tacks that really is the crux of it. I'll let you all know what happens as soon as I can figure it out. Thank you, once again, for your support. Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
Jim-Me : re-reading this thread, I saw you said that this kind of things can happen to men too. Well, I don't know. I mean, I trust you on that one, but in my entourage, nearly every woman knew such situation, and no man. I asked them, because I felt weird about this kind of experiment when I went to live alone to study in Lille, it happened, like, one a month or every other month, and I felt very afraid and miserable. It may have happened to me if I was male, but the odds it happens are very very lower if you ask me. Now, back to Raia : Take care, sweetie. I agree with everyone who told you to be firm and clear. This is no acceptable behaviour, period. And if the though has occurred to you, you did nothing, absolutely nothing to deserve that. This guy is a jerk, and you have no reponsability in this. (((((Raia)))))
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Even if it can and does happen to men, it certainly does NOT happen with the same kind of frequency or threat with which it happens to women.
Men are stronger, therefore, except in fairly unusual circumstances, would have no problem either defending themselves or getting away.
Personal experience? You don't really want to know. It happens. A lot. Far more than most men have even a clue about. I used to work in a hotel - graveyard shift - and I'd have men hit on me every single shift. During major conventions, I had upwards of over a hundred men hit on me in one shift. That, despite a wedding band on my finger and security guy guarding me. [/derail]
Raia, I agree with your comment on Bob's comment. That struck me as particularly pertinent. Good luck.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
And to make it absolutely clear : If I was male I would have to be homosexual to love my sweetie, which would make things much much complicated... So after all I'm happy the way I am. Being female has a lot of advantages too.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Anna... you are so cute.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote:Jim-Me : re-reading this thread, I saw you said that this kind of things can happen to men too. Well, I don't know. I mean, I trust you on that one, but in my entourage, nearly every woman knew such situation, and no man. I asked them, because I felt weird about this kind of experiment when I went to live alone to study in Lille, it happened, like, one a month or every other month, and I felt very afraid and miserable. It may have happened to me if I was male, but the odds it happens are very very lower if you ask me.
quote:Even if it can and does happen to men, it certainly does NOT happen with the same kind of frequency or threat with which it happens to women.
Men are stronger, therefore, except in fairly unusual circumstances, would have no problem either defending themselves or getting away.
Don't be so sure of that, and it isn't always a male that is doing the stalking.
It doesn't take much strength to hold a knife or pull a trigger, or to run someone over.
Also, men get threatened in more subtle ways, or at least in non-physical ways as well. I had a friend who dated a girl name Tammy, and she was completely psycho. She ran us off the road, tried to hit us with her car, and called the police more than once making things up about Kev and me. Since she was a woman the police always believed her, even when we weren't even in the state she was claiming we had attacked her in!
I DO think that women have many reasons to be wary, and a lot of them are physically weaker than most men so they have to worry about things that the average guy may not think about often. That doesn't mean that guys don't get harassed, or abused.....and there is a particular brand of shame that goes with that that makes it almost impossible do discuss it if it does happen to you as a man.
A big guy can immobilize a smaller guy as easily as a woman, and while it doesn't happen as often as it dies to a woman, when it does happen it is far less likely that a man will report it or discuss it with others.
Or that he will be believed if he does.
Raia, I hope you take to heart some of the advice that has been offered here, and tell him how you feel about what happened. I wouldn't wait to run into him, I would set up a meeting about it, either alone (in a public place, possibly with friends nearby), or with the authorities if you feel that is warranted. Don't worry about hurting his feelings, or getting him in trouble...even if you go the the authorities he won't get in that much trouble, as long as you stop it now rather than wait until something else happens.
If he is pissed...I know I would be.... who cares!This isn't about him!
One way or another, waiting is not a good idea. Get this taken care of right away before things get worse.
(((Raia)))
Kwea
[ November 18, 2004, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
Raia. again, please go to the health/ women's center.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Thanks Raia. I'm going to be worried about you until you get some training and/or counseling. I think Dag (and others) talked about role playing exercises. Going through this with someone who really knows what you are going through and how to deal with these types of people is important. I believe you could find a way to tell this guy no forcefully enough. But if this is your first time through this kind of thing, I really hope you realize that you are not well prepared to deal with what is to come in the future. Sorry. Being blunt again. As I said, I'm worried about you. Not just with this guy, but with people who will try to pull this stuff in much smoother and coercive ways than he has. This guy's a boor but hasn't pressed as far or as hard as others will. What about someone with real power over you (a boss, a professor, and so on)? You need training.
Please get some.
Then practice on this guy.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Ok, I've got 5 dollars, only 1195 dollars to go.
(((Raia)))
You have no idea how crazy my big brother syndrome is going right now..... Listen to all of these people, get some kind of help, and while your at it, find a big, well built, gay man (so he has no interest in you) to play big brother and scare the poop out of this guy for me...
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
JT,
I can understand the big brother feelings, but I think there's value in learning to deal with these situations without relying on a man to come in and beat the crap out of someone.
Besides, committing a crime (like physical assault) in retaliation just lands the rescuer in jail unless there's an immediate threat.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Come now Stryker violence isn't the solution to everything.... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . And besides, you're almost shorter than Raia is and hardly better suited than she is to scaring the poop outa this guy
((((((((((Raia)))))))))
You can do it, I know you can. Just imagine he is someone (I think we can both think of a couple of people to stick in his place who you wouldn't be afriad to just let have it) else when you see him next and let him have it. Don't worry about being nice, you're already so incredibly nice to so many people that I think you can more than afford to be a total bitch to at least one person who's been a jerk to you Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I might be small, but when i get that look in my eye.... people know to run for cover...
And i know that she needs to take care of this herself silly, I just know her nature and a little humor (and idle threats) can't hurt anything. But then again, if this guy lived in Bloomington, I think there'd be a line to kill him, with Alcon first and me second.
I still like the idea of a well built gay man to play big brother Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Or as I do, they pick you up and throw you in the pool so you can cool off for a while
And if this was in Bton... well I would be first in line, but it would just be to back Raia up while she took him out. And I doubt she'd need the backup. She's stronger than I think people, even she, think she is
[ November 18, 2004, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
If this were in Bloomington everyone would have already coerced her into confronting this guy and getting help and this wouldn't be an issue.
It's a lot harder to force someone to do something over the internet than it is when they're standing right there.
[ November 18, 2004, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I just found a quarter, only 1194.75 dollars and i'll make her confront him.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
*snicker*
Introduce him to Megan's husband.
-Trevor
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I still haven't met him...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
:sigh:
I know we're kidding around, guys, but words like "force" and "make" probably aren't helping. Her life, her choice, her decision. You sound like almost as big of bullies as the guy in question.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
That's what everyone on this thread is trying to do. You included are trying to make her confront him, make her seek help. Does it make it ok if you don't use the word?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
There is a difference between suggesting and coercing.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I was using it tongue in cheek. I assure you, we would not be doing anything differently than all of you are if she were here. We'd be doing it as teenagers, because we are teenagers, and that's all the support we can give.
I get the impression that maybe because we aren't as mature as everyone else here, because our suggestions aren't as weighed with life experience, that the support we're giving, in our own ways is detrimental to Raia. Mainly I get this from Eljay, but it's been hinted at and avoided elsewhere in the thread. We love her just as much as any of you. I don't think that anything anyone's said in this thread will upset her. She's used to what I say tongue in cheek, she's been around it enough to know it. She understands Stryker's need to do something to the guy, or at least to say he will. She knows we're giving support in the ways we know how, and I find it hurtful that other people insinuate we're hurting her.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I know her well enough to know that if she were upset she would have told someone, and we would have stopped.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
My last advice was on November 3rd, blacwolve, and it was to suggest she consider telling her parents about what was going on. In it, I was careful to say she knew them best and it was her decision.
Yes, I think we still need to be offering Raia support, opinions, and love. I hope she knows she'll always have that from me when she needs it. I haven't said anything in awhile not because I'm not paying attention anymore, but because other people are saying it before I see the updates, and I don't need to add more.
I firmly believe what Noemon and Sara said... Raia can't do this for us. We shouldn't pressure or guilt her into anything she's not comfortable with. Yes, I think this is something she'll have to deal with again. Yes, I agree with dkw that it would be better if she confronts him directly instead of being "distracted" by other things when she's talking with him and hoping he'll go away. But it's not my decision. And I would never, ever say that if she was here I would "make" her do it. Part of what freaked her out so bad is when this guy tried to "make" her stay when she wanted to go, remember? You really think it's any better coming from her friends?
I'm gonna shut up now, because that's not what this thread is for. Raia, I'm sorry for going off a little, and feel free to tell me to butt out. I do hope you're doing well, whatever advice to decide to or not to take. Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
blacwolve, I was writing my post at the same time you were. I'm going to respond via e-mail, if it's in your profile, because I really don't want to derail any further.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I was just trying to dig up your email. Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
*sigh* I love how we're discussing her third person in her own thread
But yea... I'd say I know Raia pretty darn well. We're joking around and hopefully giving her a good laugh (which goodness knows she needs) and a reminder that even though she's 5000 miles away we're still here for her as always. The same goofy people as before, and still just as willing to lend an ear, or a slapstick routine, or a big hug, to help cheer her up.
I'll be the first to admit I have absolutely no experience with this sorta thing. The most I've been able to do for Raia is lend an ear when she needs it, wish to heck I could do more. But you know, when something bad such as this happens the correct response isn't to just go COMPLETELY oh no and then follow it with lots and lots of advise. Humor is an excellent cure for many many ailments. And while advise is good, there is only so much that can be given and it can only be given so many times before it starts to sound like a broken record. A creative mind can come up with limitless amounts of humor, and a good laugh can cure many things.
Ok, I'm rambling now, and its 12:15 am here and I have finals tomorrow. Time to shut up
But first *picks up the little Stryker and dumps in him a pond* There cool your jets for a while hotshot.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
To clarify:
I don't feel like anyone is hurting me at all. I appreciate the comments of each and every one of you. I realize it when you guys are joking, I realize it when you're serious... just overall, I can sense what you're trying to say (even if some of you may be more eloquent than others, and that was a complete generalization, not directed at anyone in particular). *hugs* Please, don't start to argue or bicker over this... it's really not worth it, I would hate to think I caused this sort of dissention. Different people have their own different ways of helping, and please believe me that they are all welcome, and they all do help.
That said... thanks again everyone. I haven't talked to him yet (I have no way of contacting him, it's going to have to be when he contacts me). But I'll definitely keep you updated.
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
Can I just try an re-cap what happened?
You and this guy started talking. He was nice. He moved too quickly and tried to kiss you. Then he called you, you don't know what he said, but from how he acted after he tried to kiss you I'd say it was an apology.
Maybe it's just me, but I can't understand why this has affected you so deeply.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
You misunderstand what happened. A guy, much older than she is, intentionally took her to an isolated place, started fondling her hair, put his arm around her waist, and restrained her from leaving when she both pulled away and told him she wanted to leave. When she did manage to pull away, and clearly was uncomfortable with the situation, he grabbed her again and tried to kiss her again.
There is nothing innocuous about the situation. While on the scale of bad things it is likely a relatively small bad, it was definitely a bad situation, the guy was definitely attempting to force himself onto her, and trying to be friends with him is definitely a mistake, as he will just take it as a signal to make another try.
Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
please raia, for this and other reasons go to the health/womens center. We can all use some counsoling. It might give you deffences to use with other guys, and in a different way your parents. So i still wish you would go, but ofcorse it is up to you.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
*crawls out of pool*
*gives alcon evil eye*
*starts walking towards Alcon*
*suddenly pounces on Kyrie and throws her in the pool*
*runs into bushes and hides*
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
*sighs* *helps kyrie out of the pool and hands her a towel*
*drags Stryker out of the bush and holds him in the air by his ankles*
Hmm... now what should we do with this one? Any idea's kyrie, Raia, blacwolve?
[ November 19, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I vote we force Stryker to streak down kirkwood.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Possibly Lake Monroe? Right now? Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
I wasn't invited in the stryker attack plan??? He's too good of a swimmer for drowning him, though the lake is cold, not cold enough, the h-t said 50 today. Streaking down Kirkwood is not good, too silly, too over done. How about you spend one day not talking at all? That sounds painful for you or for I. (yes I've done it).
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Hmm...
Raia, thanks for being gracious. I would like to add that I agree with ElJay that we have no right and certainly not enough first-hand knowledge to do anything like force or guilt you into taking any specific action. I think I may have crossed a line here and I certainly have been acting rather patronizing while at the same time telling you that I have confidence in you. Not very supportive of me.
I am indeed worried about you, but that doesn't give me the right to tell you what to do or to scare you into taking an action you are either not ready for or (with your obviously better knowledge of the situation...and yourself) is simply not warranted by the circumstances.
I'll just sit here silently...worrying.
I am sure you can handle it. I'm worried, but confident. And rooting for you.
Okay?
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
(((Raia)))
This is such an excellent thread. Full of such good advice. It is advice I wish I had access to this sort of wisdom and support back in the day.
I have been trying to put my finger on exactly why this sort of situation has always been so difficult for me. It may or may not be helpful.
I am not the most assertive or confident of people. I have vulnerabilities that guys can (and have) taken advantage of. I think it was in part because somehow I grew up with the idea that it was not appropriate to be assertive as a female. I have no clue where I got this "message" from, I can't come up with a specific source. But I think I am not the only female who feels this way. The feeling is so deep rooted, the feeling that if you are direct or forceful you are acting like a "bitch". In fact, the result is often that when I try to be "direct" or "forceful" I end up acting like a "bitch" because I am over-compensating for my weakness. Then I feel guilty for acting that way, and I am vulnerable to my own feelings of shame again!!
Some guys have a certain way that can make me feel very uncomfortable. But they are very subtle about it. I feel like if I were to be direct to them, they would play on my vulnerabilities by denying that they were doing whatever I directly accused them of. And I would be tempted to believe them! I would also feel shame for having "accused" them of anything. I am way too nice, way too accomodating. So much so that it scares me. I am so grateful that I am happily married and not "on the market", because I never learned to deal with this properly.
I don't know if this is how other gals feel here, many of you are such strong women who know how to deal with this sort of thing. I really admire that. I wish I knew how to be that way naturally. When I try, it always feels "forced". Perhaps I should have had counseling in my youth. Maybe I still should. Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
(((((Bob))))) I don't think you crossed a line at all! Seriously, I'm glad you said what you did, some of your comments were really really helpful, and I'm still thinking about them. Thank you for posting what you did, and please don't berate yourself for being patronizing... first of all, you are older than me, and you do have more experience, so if you feel you have something to say from that tack, you don't have to sugar coat it because I wouldn't like to hear it in those words! Thank you for caring. All of you, thank you. I know I've said that too much in this thread, and it's starting to sound like a Miss America speech or something, but that's not my intention... I really am thoroughly touched that all of you care. Thank you.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
The strategy I finally found perfectly successful to deal with inappropriate touching by guys (be they family friends, coworkers, or whomever) is twofold:
1) Hurt him (make him feel sharp pain, don't necessarily injure him, though no need to be overly concerned about whether or not you do) and
2) Apologize profusely.
It seems like many girls have this problem. I know I did. And of course you can't respond correctly when they take you by surprise. However, this is a great way of dealing with those repeat offenders that you can be mentally prepared for.
At my coop job when I was 19 in college one guy would come up behind me and rub my neck. My body language would say "ewwwwww, leave me alone" but I felt like I couldn't say those words out loud. So he did it habitually. It was really icky and I had no idea how to stop it, or even that I was allowed to decide who got to touch me how and when.
A guy I worked with much later was in the habit of coming up behind me and jokingly wrapping his arms around me and picking me up. He ignored body language and other signs that I didn't like him doing that. I finally got him to stop by this method. The next time he grabbed me, I let fly with my elbow as hard as I could into his ribs. He doubled over and had difficulty breathing. I said, "I'm so terribly sorry, did I hurt you? You startled me. Can you breathe? Can I get you some water? Oh dear, I hope you are okay."
The guy can't possibly get mad when you do this, since it was just an involuntary response on your part. There is no social awkwardness in the situation (that he didn't create). It's much kinder to a guy to hit him than to say, "Your touching makes me very uncomfortable and if you don't stop it instantly I'm slapping you with a fat lawsuit," which would make him feel terrible. In fact, most guys who would do such a thing can take a hit fairly well and it falls within the realm of horseplay for them to get poleaxed. And you need not fear to meet him in the future, with friends or family, since you have not caused any sort of a breach between you.
But if you do that, he will never ever touch you again. His hindbrain will have been trained in the most rapid and efficient method there is, by the mechanism of pain.
Anyone who would touch someone without concern for how the person being touched feels about it is sort of on the level of a toddler going, "oooh, pwetty" and reaching out and grabbing the pretty thing. The thing that works effectively and well is to realize that and treat them accordingly. The next time he thinks "oooh, pretty!" his hindbrain is going to say to him "ouch!". I think it will train him not only not to touch you without your consent, but also other girls he meets in the future. I think it's doing him a favor, teaching him something he should have learned by now but didn't.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
In my experience, there is also likely to be a cultural component in this. Europe and Latin America lag behind the U.S. when it comes to attitudes toward women, so could it be that the Middle East is the same? Girls I know who have traveled to Europe seem to report a much higher incidence of "mashers" there than here.
Lest you feel that somehow you were to blame for this, realize that this problem is as old as literature. There are very old words to describe guys like this: cad, masher, etc. from at least as far back as Shakespeare. So realize that you are but the latest participant in a tableau that is as old as time.
Good luck, girl! I know you can do it! Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Without knowing you personally Bev, I tend to assume it's a cultural element as Tatiana mentioned.
Think about the kind of social reinforcement girls receive - act like a lady, don't argue, etc.
For a very long time, the image of a proper lady was one of a demure, almost submissive woman who stayed at home while the big, strong man went out and brought home the bacon. In pearls, if at all possible. The woman, not the man.
The times are a'changing, but "women's lib" happened less than a generation ago - in our parents' time.
-Trevor
Posted by Intelligence3 (Member # 6944) on :
quote: A guy I worked with much later was in the habit of coming up behind me and jokingly wrapping his arms around me and picking me up. He ignored body language and other signs that I didn't like him doing that. I finally got him to stop by this method
Did you ever happen to say, "Don't do that," or was all this communication nonverbal?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Nope. I probably acted upset and unhappy the first time he did it, I guess. Then the next time or two I think I froze up and said "hehehehe" in a flat dead way, to show how extremely unfunny I found it to be. And then when that didn't work I planted my elbow in his ribs. He took it very well, in fact, and didn't seem upset with me at all afterwards. We worked together and remained on good terms. There was no unpleasantness. But he never touched me again.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Clear body language signals usually aren't as easily interpreted as the one making them thinks they are.
I'm a big supporter of clear, verbal communication.
Dagonee
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
So says the lawyer.
But Dag's point is well made - women get frustrated with men because we don't get the message. Uncounted comedians have made careers on jokes about that.
Anyone hear the expression "well if you don't know what you did, I'm not going to tell you"?
Although granted, a solid elbow to the ribs does send quite a message.
-Trevor
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I think the principle that everyone owns their own self, their own body, and has total control over who touches them in what way when, is absolutely inviolable for any sort of civilization to exist. It's possible for anyone to make a mistake, of course. But people who push that boundary between "I don't know what you want" and "I don't care what you want" need immediate, unmistakeable correction.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Granted, but I've also known a lot of people who were casually touchy-feely and didn't quite grasp the concept of personal space unless suitably rebuked.
Once properly schooled, they would observe an individual's personal tastes, but their default setting for social interaction would still be set at "touchy feely."
But I have to admit, I've never come up behind a co-worker and grabbed them as a means of friendly greeting. I have, however, scooped up co-workers and run around the room with them - but it was in good fun and they did not object.
And I like to think I gauged their responsiveness to such an action on my part well before I attempted the tomfoolery.
-Trevor
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It also seems like speaking good "guyspeak" to me, when a girl does this. Many guys seem to loathe talking about things like interpersonal relations. The whole subject is just icky to them. So saying to them "the way you are touching me makes me uncomfortable" would embarrass them a lot. Or even worse, leave it open for argument... "I was only teasing, sheesh! You are too sensitive." etc.
Yet most guys have grown up playing football, basketball, and dodgeball and all sorts of games, wrestling each other, and so on. A nice painful jab isn't really any big deal to them. Nor does it preclude friendliness. Seems to me like lots of guys (if dense enough not to get the message earlier) would very much prefer this form of communication.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
The main thing I like about it is that it works instantly. They will never ever touch you again, I promise. Also it causes no social awkwardness and no grudges. There's no unpleasant residue. The apology covers that. It's simple and effective and it works great. I highly recommend that method to everyone.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Tough one - the painful jab could also be taken as an invitation to play.
Whereas the emotional dialogue of "don't touch me" should be pretty clear and unequivocable, whatever your intentions are.
And on a side note, why would you wrestle with someone you don't know and know well?
-Trevor
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It's not done playfully. It's done more like an immediate instinctive reaction that you then regret and apologize for.
<grab> <jab> "owowowowowo" "Oh wow, I'm soooooooooo sorry! You startled me! Are you okay? Can you breathe? Can I get you some water? I hope no ribs are broken. Wow, I'm really sorry about that."
See? It's not playful and I promise you will not have to repeat the training session. One time is plenty for even the very most dense, because of how the hindbrain naturally responds to pain.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
See, you're calling them dense because they're not picking up on your signals - this seems pretty unfair to me.
Dagonee
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It seems to me that the grabber is the one who has the responsibility to be sure their grabbing is wanted before they grab, and to correct their mistake if it's not. If they go ahead and grab willy nilly anyway, then they don't really have reason to complain about precisely the method used to communicate to them that they overstepped. There's always the option of just keeping your hands to yourself, after all.
The argument about whether or not I have the right to not be touched in a way I don't like is one I don't ever want to get into. Talking about it invites argument.
[ November 20, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Yes, but not all touching is socially unacceptable. A technique that relies on dishonesty or pretense seems automatically suspicious to me. One that relies on violence, doubly so.
Dagonee
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Dagonee, why do I get the feeling that you've never had this happen to you, that someone bigger and stronger than you has grabbed you and touched you inappropriately, with little or no regard for how you felt about it or whether the touch was welcomed?
The person whose feelings matter most in this situation is the grabee. The grabber can keep his hands to himself or take his chances.
The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
It also teaches the grabber a very important lesson, and so is actually a kind and loving thing to do. Incidentally it does a service to society as well, discouraging this behavior from getting worse, or being applied to someone less able to respond effectively.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
((Raia)), you've been getting good but conflicting advice on what to do. Good luck sorting it all out.
The only thing I can think to add right now is, if you freeze up and cannot think what to do when you run into this guy, why not write out a short little script you could read to this guy next time you see him?
Along the lines of "what you did was inappropriate. [insert brief specifics.] I don't wish any more contact with you. Leave me ALONE!
Keep it short. I would say you shouldn't do it in front of a group, but if you are with a friend when you see him your friend could be a witness.
I'm unsure of whether or not to give him the script.
The reason for using a script is so you can decide beforehand what you are going to do and say. That way you can hopefully avoid freezing up at the critical moment.
Don't forget to keep the note with when you leave your dorm room.
Best of luck dealing with this clueless jerk.
quote: Women, while getting some reprieve from certain things that men don't, have troubles of their own. I can't think how many times in today's society I think how unfair it is that a man can get away with something, but the minute a woman tries, she gets blasted by the state.
Raia. Could you please give any specifics on this? Just curious. *prepares for avalanche of specifics from outraged female hatrackers*
I can think of many societal double standards, but when does the state blast women and not men for the same acts? Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Dagonee, why do I get the feeling that you've never had this happen to you, that someone bigger and stronger than you has grabbed you and touched you inappropriately, with little or no regard for how you felt about it or whether the touch was welcomed?
I don't know. Do you often get incorrect feelings? Or do you just assume that anyone who's had to deal with this would automatically agree with you.
I went through most of the first 18 years of my life putting up with unbelievable bulls*&^ like this, by people who knew I didn't like it because I told them. During the course of that time, I also had people stop because I told them I didn't like it.
quote:The person whose feelings matter most in this situation is the grabee. The grabber can keep his hands to himself or take his chances.
The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
It also teaches the grabber a very important lesson, and so is actually a kind and loving thing to do. Incidentally it does a service to society as well, discouraging this behavior from getting worse, or being applied to someone less able to respond effectively.
If the person is well-intentioned, the honest, non-violent approach will work. If they are not, then you can move into other solutions, including possible violence in extreme cases, very easily. I don't see "avoiding awkwardness" to be a justification for violence.
If you look around, you see lots of people who put their arms around people's shoulders, or give quick shoulder massages. I've never been comfortable with any of that - but a lot of people are, both giving and receiving. It's a social norm that exists, to the mutual pleasure of many people. I find it incomprehensible, but I ackowledge it, and assume good intentions on the part of those participating until they prove otherwise.
Dagonee
[ November 20, 2004, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
quote: I went through most of the first 18 years of my life putting up with unbelievable bulls*&^ like this, by people who knew I didn't like it because I told them.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It's extremely unpleasant and violating. I wish you had known my method and given it a try. It really works great. I bet you would have been free of that business for all those years. It took me years to hit upon this course, almost by accident, really. Once I did I wished I had known it all my life. It's so quick and effective and well-received that it's just a happy thing for all concerned. I think it should be taught to everyone as children. If it were, it would end bullying in schools forever, I think.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Or escalate the violence.
-Trevor
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
But it doesn't do that either. Because it's only used as a reaction to something that's unacceptable. Never in a preemptive way. And since it's one quick strike or jab followed by an apology, there is no tendency for it to start a fight.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think you'll find you're dealing with a rather polite crowd, and in a setting that's not so dangerous.
There are a lot of people out there who are easily angered, and while many of them would respect a no in a calm state, would not respect it in an angered state. If you attempted your tactic, you would only end up in much worse trouble than you started.
I predict much better results can be found by first saying no, and then if that doesn't work hurting them, since it can become too late to say know if you hurt someone.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
One of the rules of physical confrontation - mach the ante or back down.
In front of an audience, backing down can be unacceptable depending on the mindset involved.
-Trevor
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Hasn't she taken care of this yet? At this rate she is going to end up married to the guy.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
The hurting is nothing other than an instinctive reaction to being violated.
This method has been extensively field tested and it works.
Without this method we see years of trouble, as Dagonee reports. With this method we see instant solution to the problem. The situation with far greater violence is the one with the years of trouble.
The only thing going against this method, in fact, is the idea that violence never solves anything, an idea that is, in real world real life sitations, found actually not to be the case.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Spoken by a woman who hasn't grown up wrestling, tackling and playing dodgeball.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Been tested and it works? Plus I rather think an elementary/middle/high school bully system is rather incomparable to on the job experiences.
You clearly have much weaker ideas of testing than I do. I suggest wandering the inner city bars and waiting for someone to make a move, then trying your tactic. Well, I don't, because I have a strong prediction that the results would be unpleasant.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: Or even worse, leave it open for argument... "I was only teasing, sheesh! You are too sensitive." etc.
This is exactly the sort of thing I am talking about! You accuse the guy and then they turn it around on you, making it seem like it was your fault, not theirs. Whether in the way you interpreted their action, or in the way you dealt with it. And so many of us girls fall into this trap! I know I did. Grrrrrrr.
Yeah, Trevor, I think it is definitely a cultural thing. And certainly our culture has changed to make it far more acceptable for a woman to be assertive. But unfortunately, in me, old habits die hard. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
It works in many situations, in fact. With bullies at school, with inappropriate touching in the workplace, and to end family violence. It works exceedingly well and extremely quickly. It's one event, versus untold years of abuse. And I repeat that it's never to be used unprovoked. And it has worked not just for me but for others as well, in a wide variety of situations.
I was told by a corrections officer that this is the smartest way to act in prison, too. In other words, to be kind and polite and friendly to everyone, unless you are physically bothered in some way, and then to respond with a quick violent response which ends immediately. (The apology is only called for if the person is purportedly doing it only in fun. If they're openly being violent to you, then you need not apologize. Just hit hard and then break it off, and next time you see them, go back to being friendly and polite and kind.)
[ November 20, 2004, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
quote: The beauty of this method is that there is no awkwardness, no hurt feelings, no unpleasantness or need to avoid that person in the future. It leaves you on good terms with them, which may be really important in the case of a coworker, or a friend of the family, or even a family member. And it works instantly.
Dag, I agree with Tatania. Whether we like it or not, and even though society has come *such* a long way, we live in a society where men deal better with women being "manipulative" or "subtle" in certain situations. Many men are appalled at the "dishonesty" of the situation that she has described, but this is just a fact of life for so many women. It just gets better results when you are dealing with creeps.
A skilled woman learns how to influence men in subtle ways--but hopefully for good rather than evil. ('Cause goodness knows, it sure can be used for evil!) Some (certainly not all) men respond better when he doesn't know they are being influenced. When they think it was their idea all along. Like in this case. The woman never tells the man not to touch her, he can massage his ego by thinking it was *his* idea to cut out that behavior.
But perhaps this just perpetuates the very stereotypes I feel trapped by. Change comes hard.
Has anyone else noticed that many men of the previous generation seem to enjoy making women feel uncomfortable? I mean with the way they joke and whatnot. Like they really like having control over women. Bugs the snot out of me!
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
See, what's really funny is that pretty much every guy I know would rather girls said no, and wouldn't be any more hurt by that than by being jabbed in the gut, in fact would be less hurt because they'd actually understand where things stood.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I wasn't clear - this wasn't a situation where they needed some clue that the attention was unwelcome. They knew it was unwelcome. The elbow jab didn't work with people whose intentions were bad. Speaking did work with people whose intentions were good.
Dagonee
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
Here's a question: What would happen if we reversed the situation Anne Kate talks about. The man is being hugged from behind by a woman and doesn't like it. Is it acceptable for him to hit her?
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Of course! It's an accident! You just strike out of instinct from being startled. Then you apologize for hurting the person. How can that be not okay?
Is it okay for a women to come from behind a man and hug him when he doesn't want her touching him? To do it again and again when his body language and responses each time make it very clear that her hug is unwelcome? The violence in this sitation is being done by her, not him.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
But you're NOT striking as an accident. You're purposefully hitting and acting like it's an accident.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I never can understand this attitude, that people would be so concerned for the possibility of causing any sort of pain to the aggressor that they would counsel the victim to act in a way that basically allows the aggression to continue, often for years, with no end. That is the thing that I see as being a mistake. The wrong idea that violence can never ever be the LEAST violent way of solving a problem. In fact, if used correctly, it often is. AND, it is doing a kindness to the aggressor as well, by training them out of such behavior.
[ November 20, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Eruve Nandiriel (Member # 5677) on :
I get picked on a lot by guys because I'm so short, and not very strong, so I can't fight back very well.
I've had a guy pick me up "to see how heavy I was", but he wasn't expecting me to kick him when he did. He's only picked me up once since, and I punched him after he put me down (that time was on purpose). He didn't think I could hit him that hard, either. He still pokes me in the side or tickles me when he walks by, I haven't figured out how to get him to stop that yet.
Then there's another guy I work with who asked me once "Are you stressed out? Do you want me to rub your shoulders? But I guess that's harassment." He was joking around about it, but at least he knew it was inappropriate and didn't harass me.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Who's concerned about them? I'm concerned for your well being if you continue with this strategy. It likely works on the guys you hang around with, but try it on the wrong guy once and you're in serious trouble, whereas if you say no, and when that doesn't work respond appropriately (using all necessary means of getting out of his grip, then getting away), you'll avoid harm to yourself in a greater percentage of circumstances. Your concern with "hurting someone's feelings" (though you completely misunderstand how most guy's feelings work) over your own wellbeing and the wellbeing of the women you advise is stunning.
Also, you're still conflating bullying with romantic advances -- and while one may attempt to bullying someone into romance, bullying as its own end is completely different.
[ November 20, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
How is hitting someone less violent than asking them to stop?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:I never can understand this attitude, that people would be so concerned for the possibility of causing any sort of pain to the aggressor that they would counsel the victim to act in a way that basically allows the aggression to continue, often for years, with no end.
No one is saying the aggression should be allowed to continue for years. I'm simply saying that starting at violence, rather than working your way up to it, is not the optimal solution, morally or practically.
You've justified this method by saying it's less painful emotionally. Why would this matter given the quoted statement?
Dagonee
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
I agree that this strategy (in most cases, perhaps not all) would not be appropriate if they guy has not already been verbally warned clearly not to do what he is doing.
I will tell a story from my husband and brother-in-law. My brother-in-law likes to tickle people. Sometimes the people he tickles are other guys. Maybe seems weird, but to him it is appropriate behavior. Well, Porter would not put up with being tickled and told him in no uncertain terms on several occasions to cut it out. There was no confusion, Porter is blunt, to the point, and not afraid of being confrontational. Well, my bro-in-law kept doing it anyway. So every time he did, Porter would grab his ear and pull. He would keep pulling until my bro-in-law stopped. It took a few times, but my bro-in-law now NEVER tickles my husband. Sometimes pain works where words do not. And this circumstance was not serious enough to bring the law in.
We aren't talking about grabbing privates or anything specific enough to be sexual, we are talking about menacing or annoying behavior that is unwanted.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I'm speaking from the experience of multiple cases in which the aggression DID continue for years, and then was stopped instantly by a single application of this techinique. The idea that violence is never warranted and should never be used under any circumstances gave rise to all the prior techniques that failed, e.g. trying to talk about it or discuss the problem, reporting the problem to authorities, etc.
Another beauty of my method is that you will never have to have the discussion of whether you handled the situation appropriately or not. You won't be told that you overreacted, or that you shouldn't have turned someone in, or chastised them. You won't be told you're too sensitive, or that you should just have put up with the situation and enjoyed it. You won't be told that you asked for it. It will just stop. And the person will learn better. A happy conclusion all around.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
If you've tried saying "I don't like it when you do X" to them before resorting to the elbow jab, then most of my opposition evaporates. But that's not how I interpreted your stance throughout this discussion.
Dagonee
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
For the record, I've tried the "asking people to stop first and then escalating to violence" method. It doesn't work, because it can't be passed off as accidental, no matter how much you apologize. In their mind, they were doing nothing wrong, it's "all in good fun," or they wouldn't keep doing it after you've asked/told them to stop. So then when you escalate to violence, you're hurting them when they haven't done anything to you, they were just playing around and you're blowing it all out of proportion.
I would expect the guys in this forum to be appalled by Tatiana's method, because I would expect them to be the ones to stop when asked the first time. Or, most likely, not to pick a woman up without being in a good enough relationship with her that they're sure it's okay. But come one, picking someone up from behind? The only reason he wouldn't get an instinctive attack the first time is that most woman have been "trained" to surpress that instinct. So I have no problem with the artiface of doing it on purpose the second or third time.
Edit: The problem, of course, lies in determining if the guy will listen to your request to stop or not. Althought I've never used Tatiana's method, I agree with her assesment that she should be in control of who touches her. So why, when he is not following the rules of polite society, should she be expected to?
[ November 20, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
*Sighs contentedly* The difference in male/female methods of communication in different societys is what Im studdying in sociology right now. Emotional Management is culturely used more by females in our society (I suspect Isrial is the same way). Raia, our society has tougt you to try and do things with out hurting someones feeling or directly asking, espesually if their male (this is a grotesce simplification of what i have been learning). But in this case you really cant do that... its not working. You have our suggestions here. Please do something, have some plan of action.... and please get some help at the health center.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
As a guy I don't have much problem with Tatiana's approach. The problem for a guy's perpective is what happens when the touchy-feely person is a girl and when its guy touching another guy the possible problems. For example, once out of pure reaction from a guy trying to take a stapler from me, my hand swung up and the stapler hit him in the head. In response I got stitches from the gash on my head that resulted from being shoved into the nearby filing cabinet.
Posted by Toretha (Member # 2233) on :
But there are guys who just naturally are like that. Many people down here greet with a hug. On our speech team, theres a really nice guy who's response to seeing anyone on the team looking stressed is to start to rub their neck. It's not a come on, its just how he is. And if I were to hit him for doing that, without warning, when he's just trying to be nice, it would be totally unacceptable. People ought to be given a chance to stop before assuming they're not going to respond to anything but pain.
Also, seems to me like a lot of the hitting is to avoid people saying the girl is over reacting. Frankly, hitting someone to avoid societal stigma does not strike me as acceptable, when just telling them to stop would work, the person just doesn't want to be told they're over reacting.
That said, I've hit guys before to make them stop doing things. In middle school, at least I did. Now, I find other methods are much more effective. There are situations in which I would now, but they're few, and if there were other options, mostly I don't.
[ November 20, 2004, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Toretha ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I'm coming in to this discussion late. But from the guys point of view, I dunno I'm a fairly touchy guy. I give people hugs all the time, when they are looking down hugging is one of my responses. I pat people on the back, jokingly pat or bonk people on the head, tickle people. Specially when people squeak o:-). Its just how I am. Its not any sort of come on, a) I have a girlfriend who I couldn't be happier with and b) I do the same things to guys and girls. When people seriously tell me to not do something, cuase it bothers them, I stop. It doesn't effect my friendship with the person at all, I just don't do that to them. And I can understand that completely cause I used to hate being hugged or touched by anyone. So, I think just telling the person quite seriously: "Can you please not do that? It bothers me." Is a perfectly fine reaction, and if done right won't create any sort of stigma or akwardness. Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
*also came into discussion late*
*has nothing to add*
*sits and listens to everyone*
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I can see both sides. One the one hand, we are often less clear in our body language than we believe ourselves to be.
But I seriously doubt Anne Kate is talking about those situations in which someon hesitantly pats a shoulder or a hand. I think the touching that triggers this much reaction is a far different thing.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I was raised to be an assertive woman (in a society where that is not necessarily the norm). I have been called a bitch on multiple occasions. (By my ex, among others.) And told, in many many more gentle ways that I should "tone it down," "not react so harshly," "understand that it was just a joke" . . . ad nauseum.
But you know what? I have never had someone touch me in a way that I disliked more than once. I reacted strongly and unequivocally (VERBALLY) made it clear that it was not ok.
[edit: weird! where did the last paragraph of my post go?]
Now, some of that is luck. If I had run into someone bent on being seriously nasty, I'd probably have either come up with another method to deal with them -- or wish I had!
[ November 20, 2004, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: rivka ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
One person's strong and confident woman is another person's "bitch."
Never having met Rivka, I couldn't tell you which I'd consider her ( ), but just because some putz calls you a name doesn't mean he (or she) is actually right.
-Trevor
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
And even if they ARE right it doesn't mean it is a bad thing all of the time...
I haev something to add...
I am one of those touch-feely people you are talking about. I don't do it with people I am uncertin about because I have made people uncomfortable in the past, and I don't want to do that to others.
If I tried to hug someone and they elbowed me it would affect me, and our relationship as friends, FAR more than if the person had pulled me asideand told em not to do it again. If asked to stop I would feel uncomfortable around them for a day or so, but I would never touch them again and it would all be fine the next day.
Now don't get the wrong idea...I don't just go up to ramdom people and touch them....
But here is one example:
I worked at B&N, ans there was a girl there named Jen (not the one I married), a young woman who was about 5' tall, and pretty small all over. Even I was bigger than she was, ans I am only 5'6"! I liked her a lot, not in a dating way but because she was funny, nice, adn smart...in fact she was one of the niciest co-workers I have ever had.
One day I was I the break room, and as I headed back to work out the door she came in. She moved to the right the same time I did, then we both moved to the left....then to the right again. We both laughed, adn then did it again!
So I said "Wait a second.", grabbed her by the arms, adn pretended to lift her out of the way.
She froze the minute I touched her, and I knew something was wrong, so I let go. She was seriously freaked out, even though I had not grabbed her hard and I had let go right away. I asked if she was OK, and she justwalked away, very quietly.
When I went over she was still a little freaked out..not because it had been me....we had known each other for about 10 months and worked 3 times a week together. She just had some really bad things happen to her, adn that brought it all back to haunt her.
I wasn't hitting on her, I wasn't interested in her that way at all....but just by joking around with her, pretending to "dance" I crossed the line. I felt horrible, and I must have apoligised 10 times, but it didn't see to do any good.
It was a long time before things ever got back to normal between us, adn she apoligised a few time to me as well, because she didn't want me to think she was freaked out by me, or for others to think I had done soemthing wrong.
If she had hit me, I might have shoved her....and things would have never been normal, adn we both would have been written up.
And I might have been pised off, so pissed that I might not have learned the lesson I did..that even if you are cool with someone, there are lines you don't cross without being sure it is ok to do so. And that even if you are cool with them , sometimes other things in their past might make some behaviors unexceptable to them, and it isn't your fault.
Kwea
[ November 21, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Kwea raises another point - a hard elbow from a woman doesn't carry the same connotations to me as a similar act from a man.
Call it the last bastion of sexism on my part, but as a rule I don't hit women unless I'm in serious danger of injury whereas I'm more likely to respond physically to a man attempting the same thing.
For various reasons.
-Trevor
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
Kwea,I have a hard time imagining her hitting you without you realizing she was in distress. Or maybe you grew up with a lot of sisters who punched? That was a very valuable lesson you learned, though. I suppose there IS no perfect way to teach that lesson to the sort of guys who don't read body language very well.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Granted, I don't know Kwea very well but the simple fact is not a lot of guys read body language well.
We're just that dense - or since we don't deal with emotions well or regularly, we don't spend any effort learning the finer points of interacting with anyone.
I was out drinking with a gay buddy who had to point out that a woman was trying to hit on me.
Of course, he has to point out when guys are hitting on me and run interference, so it works out.
-Trevor
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I tend to try to treat other people like I do cats. This takes active participation and watchfulness, though.
Some cats will come right up to you and rub on your legs, purring. Even so, when I first touch them, I offer the back of my hand to sniff.
Other cats are watchful, kind of tense when you just look at them, much less get near them. (perfect example is Christy's cat) Those cats have to come to you on their own terms, and you never never want to sneak up on them or move their bodies around against their will. Even if you are permitted to touch them, it will always be on their terms, not on yours.
*shrug
Their bodies, their space. I haven't any rights that trump as regards any other sentient body in that way. I've had other people act as if their sense of friendliness or desire to touch me trumped my sovreignity over my body, and it was very unpleasant.
[ November 21, 2004, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Like many women, I grew up having more than enough of the copping feels while pretending just to be friendly. I got tired of trying to pull away and having someone hang on. Submit or make a scene; be nice and put up with it or be rude and be made to pay for it. Because you always pay for it, you know.
Knowing that there are people -- men as well as women -- who actively do not want to be touched in ways I might not anticipate makes me especially careful of initiating prolonged or deliberate touch. Of course, I still do it, but I always assume that my desire to give affection or friendliness isn't as important as their possible desire to be left alone.
For those who have a different philosophy, why do you do it? (Honest curiosity here.) Do you assume that you won't be able to tell if they want it, so you might as well dive in? Or is it that maybe sometimes people will like being touched by you even if at first they thought they wouldn't? Or something else?
(I'm assuming that everyone here understands that some people do not want to be touched -- hugged, lifted, squeezed, rubbed, whatever. This might not be clear to young children, but I take it that we all understand such wishes do exist for some people and may be very deeply grounded.)
[ November 21, 2004, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
The best story:
A friend an I are waiting at the pedestrian crossing traffic lights talking and we don't see the lights change and a man and a female companion brush by us.
We suddenly comment loudly because we weren't looking at the light and the man turns and says, "I'm sorry I brushed passed you I hope I didn't get in your personal space or anything."
We told him it was okay, but the memory is very strong- as soon as he heard us he wondered if he had bothered us even though we weren't even talking about him. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:For those who have a different philosophy, why do you do it?
[Or maybe, is it offensive or insulting even to ask the question?]
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
CT, I've been thinking about your post and I think you're just asking the wrong people. On this website I would guess there COULD be people who still don't understand that some people don't want to be touched, and therefore try to touch. I would wonder why they don't understand that.
I would doubt there are many people reading this post who understand that some people don't want to be touched but insist on touching anyway. Or if there are, I doubt they'd speak up and answer your question.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I'm not offended, but then I also fall into the "no personal contact without a signed affidavit" category.
Most of which comes from a serious lack of social skills and the fact I look like a thug, which encourages a certain healthy respect for appearance, posture and personal space. Inspiring fear is overrated.
And oh my god(dess), at what point does it seem like it's ok to cop a feel? I mean c'mon, that's just tacky and intrusive.
-Trevor
Edit: For typo
[ November 21, 2004, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: TMedina ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
It's not usually a question of "when does it seem okay," as far as I can tell. It's more a question of "when do I think I can get away with it." Which usually means "is she going to cause a scene or rationalize it away as an accident?"
TMedina, have you ever posted a picture anywhere? I gotta admit, you're one of the people who's physical appearance I'm curious about, at least partially because of how you describe yourself on occasion. If you're not a picturey type, I understand. Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I used to - but it doesn't convey the sense of "bigness" or what my friend described as "lumbering menace."
If I can find one or borrow a friend's digital camera, I'll send a pic for Mad Owl.
Or take pictures at the Atlanta Turkey Day event, provided anything's happened on that front.
-Trevor
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Cool, thanks.
(Lumbering menace? )
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I used to not be a touchy feely person at all, and now I am, so I'll try to elaborate both sides.
When I wasn't a touchy feely person our neighbor across the street was, and she would always come up and hug me whenever she saw me. I didn't feel like she was invading my space, I felt like there was something wrong with me that I didn't like to be hugged. On her part, I think the hugging just came naturally, it wasn't something she thought about, it was just what you do when you're saying hi to someone. I doubt it even occured to her that people would be uncomfortable with it.
There was also a guy at my school who would give everyone backrubs and hugs whenever he saw them. This made me incredibly uncomfortable and eventually my boyfriend gave me the wonderful advice of telling him to stop, which definatly had not occurred to me before. I worked up the courage and told him and he stopped. Our relationship stayed just as odd and uncomfortable as it had always been.
Recently I've become much more of a touchy feely person. I hug my friends when they're upset and have begun to realize how much just holding someone can help when words don't have any affect. I can't imagine hugging someone I didn't know really well though. The only situation I can think of where I would is if I saw someone really upset and put an arm around them. I've never done that though, so I don't know if I actually would.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
OK, let me clarify this...shen didn't hit me at all. I said I wasn't hitting on her, as in a sexual advance, or even being overly familiar with her person.
She just froze up, and her reaction as way out of proportion to what had happened, so I knew something was wrong.
No contact from her was what happened.....but if she HAD hit me I might have shoved her away or something. I don't react well to that sort of thing, I usually overeact. I wouldn't have intentionaly hit her back or hurt her, but it wouldn't have been a good thing, that was my point.
This is really not much help to Raia though, a she had the opposite problem...a man who wasn't aware of her reaction to his touching. I just strongly disagree with relying on violence, even a midl form of it, adn deception to deal with a situation that is best haldled with privacy and honesty. If that doesn't work htere is always other options, but I don't think they should be the first line of defence.
Kwea
Kwea
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I hope you weren't clarifying for me ...I just meant that if you read her body language that well when she froze up, I was thinking that you would have read her body language equally well if she actually had hit you instead. I just can't imagine you hitting her back, whatever her response was, even though you apparently can, at least a little bit.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
There's touching and then there's touching and the ability to set the standard of what is and is not acceptable depending on the situation and scenario.
Leaning in for a kiss after chatting with a complete stranger for a few minutes in a park is not acceptable.
Fishing for a kiss after a second date, maybe.
Kissing your wife before you leave for work, yes.
Some people might freak if you touched their shoulders, others think nothing of it.
It's a relative standard and depends entirely on the person in question.
-Trevor
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
There's a guy at my church who seems to have trouble recognizing that people are bothered by certain behaviors. One of my friends has told him a few times not to touch her and he continues to do so. Fortunately, he hasn't done this to me. Actually, most people don't touch me uninvited, and I'm not sure why. I guess I give off "don't touch me" vibes. Oddly enough, I'm perfectly ok with touching during Aikido practice--being grabbed, having my wrists twisted, and being thrown to the ground--but a friendly pat on the shoulder from someone I don't know well, especially if the person is male, makes me uncomfortable.
But I digress. People seem to be ok with causing some pain if the person doing the touching has been warned verbally. But what can be done when my friends are clearly uncomfortable and have made their feelings clear to this person and he doesn't stop? I don't feel it's my place to beat him up the next time he does this, unless it's done to me. But it's gotten to the point where some of them are avoiding the college group activities because he's there.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I wasn't sure about what you were saying, so I wanted to clarify...my post made sense to me, but I already knew the story...
I don't think I would have hurt her, or hit her, btu I wouldn't want to be suprised like that and I am not sure waht my response would have been had she done so.
And I am a non-violent type of person.
When I was in 1st grade and I came home with a bloody lip and a black eye. When my dad saw me he was mad, and made me tell him what had happened.
A tomboy in my grade had started hitting me, and I couldn't hit her back....she was a girl! Once she found out I wouldn't hit back she beat the crap out of me.
So my dad pulled me aside and said that a man NEVER hits a lady....but that if a girl was beating me up and not letting me run away, she was no lady.
I beat the crap out of her the next day....after trying to get away and being chased down. Boy was she suprised!
I had a female principle, and she was pissed that I had hit a girl, and called my parents.
And my dad came in and told her off, and completely defended me and my actions. He said that if the school wasn't ging to do anything abotu a bully because she happened to be a girl, then I could fight back.
I will someday teach my children the same lesson....that violence is not an acceptable alternitive to discussion, or even flight...but that if it becomes necessay, do it right, against male or female.
I have only ever used that advice one other time, in junior high school. There was a HUGE girl who thought I wouldn't hit back because I was, in her words, a wuss. She began hitting me, and when I backed down, the teacher came in adn she blamed me. She had bee trying to throw my books out a window, adn when I reached for them she tries to push me out it (we were on the first floor), I looked at the teacher, and then I grabbed her and shoved her out the window and shut it. I figured fi I was going to get blamed for it all, I might as well do it and have the satisfaction. She was locked out, and the teacher took one look at me and said "Thank you Mr. Brill, I have wanted to do that to her since the school year began.".
The same argument saved me in that situation too.....
You NEVER hit a Lady, but if she is hitting you, she isn't a lady at all.
[ November 21, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
'Almost in tears' Because this post keeps rolling. By now this is just about getting attention.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Umm... Jar Head, had you not noticed that the post had LLOOONNGG since moved on from the original topic and that Raia hasn't actually posted to it in a while. Its not about Raia anymore. Next time read before you open your big mouth.. or sould I say move your fingers.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Then the lazy cobbers should start a new thread instead of floating this tired thing.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Jar Head, if the thread bores you, don't read it. It's as simple as that. You don't have to be rude.
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Jar Head, thats not how it works around here. Threads often wander from topic to topic. Quit being an arsehole.
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
Most threads morph into something else after a while. If you don't like it, this is probably not the place for you.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
If only threads came with an ignore button...
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: 'Almost in tears' Because this post keeps rolling. By now this is just about getting attention.
This pisses me off. I could say a lot about that, but various people have already posted already. If you're going to be nothing but an immature idiot, I'm going to have to ask you to get the hell out of this thread.
Carry on.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Whoa, we are starting now to see a glimpse of the girl who has had enough. You go, Raia! Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
Yay! Raia power!
(now call him "n00b". You will feel really better.) ;-)
[ November 22, 2004, 05:59 AM: Message edited by: Eduardo_Sauron ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
Yay! Raia's doing some much needed butt kicking.
Raia
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
"I'm upset this thread is on the front page."
"I think I'll post to it, which makes it rise to the top of the page. And I'll say something so annoying I'll inspire others to reply, bumping it again and again."
I'll take "Posting Strategies That Make No Sense" for $2,000, Alex.
Dagonee
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Ah, but Jar Head was right about one thing. It IS about getting attention -- for him.
Sad how well it's working . . . (and yes, I entirely see the irony of posting this).
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Throw some sand against the wall and tell him to take the beach.
-Trevor
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Briefly back to what Tatiana mentioned. I did it once, only it was entirely gut reaction and I could not have stopped myself if I wanted to, which, in hindsight, I would not have wanted to.
I worked the graveyard shift at a hotel. One of the bellmen walked up behind me one morning and grabbed my butt. Full open hand grab, not a pinch. A total feel. I swung my elbow back as hard as I could. I hit him where it counts, he staggered into the back break room and stayed there for a good 45 minutes or so. I didn't apologize. We never talked about it. Where before, he had a reputation for being a sleazeball with the female staff, he competely changed overnight.
My boss called me in for a meeting one day shortly after to discuss this man. She wondered if I knew anything about his sudden change. I told her. She asked if I wanted the company to take any action against him for his sexual assault. Nah, I said. It's been dealt with.
Granted, my situation was a little different - it was fully sexual assault. But honestly, if someone touches me in a way that I'm not comfortable with, I tend to get mean and nasty fast. I hate being touched by people I'm not comfortable with. Hate. No one has the right to touch me, period. So many men just don't get it. Then again, so many women don't, either. And yes, it makes me look like a bitch. But I don't particularly care.
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
FWIW: I'm the type that will immediately react in a "bitchy" way when touched my someone I don't know well. I will do pretty much whatever it takes to get them to stop.
On my second day on the job as a waitress, a male coworker grabbed my ribcage to tickle it. His hands were in an iffy zone, in my opinion. It was technically my ribs, by dangerously close to my breasts. It's the place that a man will hold his significant other in public without being downright raunchy. Needless to say I've only ever been held there by one person, so my immediate feeling was an internal "He's not my husband!" and an external "Don't ever touch me again!" It was loud enough for the small restaurant to hear, and got me branded as a bitch.
I don't think a person should be blamed for most reactions they have in a situation like that, short of doing longterm damage. It's such an akward situation, and most women feel too small to do anything about it. I feel so sorry for girls who don't know how to handle it and just smile because they are afraid and confused. They always get blamed for "allowing it to happen" and leading the guy on, but that's bogus. Being touched by someone much bigger than you is scary! You'll do what you think won't get you hurt. Or sometimes it'll be a guy you like, but don't know too well. So when he crosses a line, you aren't sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing.
When I was younger, I would blush and get flustered and not really know what to do when someone was too forward, male or female. But things are different now. I will yell, punch, kick, or do whatever it takes to make sure people know where I'm coming from. I have created some heartache that was probably unnecessary but I don't really care. To me it's so important to be quick and clear and keeps me from dealing with anything like that more than once. I will always attempt verbal communication first, but if that doesn't work in one try I will then bring the guy down hard.
I am actually a very huggy person, but I reserve that for people I know well, and generally people who attempt to touch me first so that I know it will be well-received. I'm happier being a "bitch" and not being taken advantage of than being "nice" and having to deal with an overly-forward person more than once.
I can't fathom how a man could live in the United States in the year 2004 and not understand that he needs to tread lightly when it comes to touching women he doesn't know well. I just can not. With all the media coverage, and law suits, etc, I would expect men to be scared silly to come anywhere near an unfamiliar woman. So when men insist on hugging me, touching me, and complimenting me in a way that's too familiar (ie: A man in my church told me that he really liked my shirt because it kept him distracted, even though it was a fairly modest top), especially when I notice that they only do it when Jes isn't around, than I assume they are asking for it.
The compliment thing really ticks me off. It's like these guys think on how they can phrase something in a way that can be taken two ways, so that they can weasel out if it doesn't make you drool. It seems so purposeful.
I'd better stop now...I'm getting angry.
Posted by kyrie (Member # 6415) on :
so, raia.... hows it goin'? Found the theripy/ womens/ health center or anything? Sorry to be so persistant about it... feel free to tell me to shut up I'll inderstand, its your choice after all .
Posted by Arthur (Member # 4026) on :
Raia- I've been thinking of you and hope you are doing much better. I had something happen to me when I was 9 and never, to this day have I ever told anyone about it, not that that makes any difference. Just wanted to check and see how you were doing and let you know I was thinking of you. -Jennifer
Posted by punwit (Member # 6388) on :
I can't add anything of import that hasn't already been said. I'm just chiming in to add my support and wish you well in your pursuit of (security)? Be cautious but be confident, and first and foremost, worry about you and your piece of mind before anything else.
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Raia
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[No No]](graemlins/nono.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I've very personal feelings about this topic. I'm not good when it comes to digging down deep for stuff. So I'll just leave it alone.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
)![[Cry]](graemlins/cry.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I did know that, I'm just stupid. Wow, I can't believe I said that!![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
*picks up the little Stryker and dumps in him a pond* There cool your jets for a while hotshot.
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[The Wave]](graemlins/thewave.gif)