I was over reading the "Emigration Call" thread, and started really thinking about why I'll stay rather than leave in the wake of Bush's re-election.
I thought about leaving. I thought about it seriously, and started thinking about it even before the election, in the event that Bush won. God knows, I feel like my country has left me in many ways. As just one example, I can remember when you could be a centrist or a liberal in the United States without being accused by the right of really being a secret Socialist (which is exactly what goes on every day in the conservative media). In fact, I've always thought of myself as a moderate, but I'm finding now that when asked, I've started to identify myself as a liberal because the moderates I know out here in the real world now seem to espouse such conservative beliefs.
Anyway. About leaving vs. staying. I will stay.
I will stay because leaving would mean that I'm conceding my country to people who would change my country into something I do not believe it was ever meant to be by the Founding Fathers.
I will stay because if I leave I don't believe I would have standing to criticize those in power for the things I think they are doing wrong.
I will stay because I believe the administration needs to be constantly reminded that 51% of the vote (which does not mean that 51% of the population voted for Bush, but only that 51% of those who chose to vote - certainly not a majority of the people in the U.S.) does not a mandate make.
I will stay because we need as many voices as possible out here, paying attention to what is going on and keeping the adminstration honest and accountable to all the people, not just those who voted to keep the administration in power.
I will stay because, damn it, this is my country too, and I'm not going to give up my vision of what it should be without a fight.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Cheers LMA on!
AJ
Posted by Bokonon (Member # 480) on :
I'll stay (as if there were any doubt!), short of large civil unrest (which I don't expect or desire in my lifetime), when I might think about it.
It's similar to my thoughts on if a draft (which won't happen) gets instituted to help out in Iraq. I'd sooner stay and rot in prison, than to flee, and become what I feel would be quite the hypocrite, abdicating my responsibility as a citizen when the going gets rough.
-Bok
Posted by Melponome (Member # 6987) on :
You know Robert Redford said he was going to flee to Ireland if Bush won. I'm WAIIITINGGGGG..... Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*Grin* and my reasons for considering emmigration have everything to do with the weather and nothing to do with polictics. Even if I did move to Australia to become a permanent resident there I don't think I could ever give up my U.S. citizenship. Too many of my ancestors shed blood for this country.
AJ
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
*shrug* I just don't care which country I'll live in.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I have no money to leave the country. But, I have always wanted to live in Canada though, out in the middle of nowhere with a lot of snow or something... Writing novels. I just feel like as each year goes by there is no place for me in the US. I feel... like some sort of Alien here. It just gets worse every single year and if I can't somehow get out of this pit I am in I am pretty screwed.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
I think one of the really good things about this election was that it has sparked so many discussions about what America is and what it means to be an American.
Reading through your post was fascinating, lma. You sound vibrant and energized -- that is so cool.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
You know, you discontented democrats really wouldn't like Canada anyway. You would find it far too leftist. Trust me, I have to live here all year long.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
It's true, though. Out conservative party is more left that your democrats. .
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
I will stay because as restrictive as the law is concerning personal freedoms, there is no nation I am aware of that permits the actions forbidden here and has reasonable gun laws.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
The only reasonable gun law that I can think of is "No guns allowed, anywhere, anytime, noway nohow." But then again, I'm Canadian.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I thought Canada had pretty lax gun laws.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You have to register your guns (you still do, right?), but you're allowed to have hunting rifles.
And the police have guns.
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
dh, our definitions of reasonable gun laws are incompatible.
Dagonee, really? I thought they were quite a bit worse than us, not that I have done any research on it recently.
I wonder how easy it is to get scripts in Canada...
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Gun registration is not reasonable.
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
Danzig, I already know that. Also, I don't want to get into an argument over gun control. But if you want my honest opinion, I think we should have Chris Rock making the gun laws. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: they were quite a bit worse than us
Using words like "quite a bit worse" is confusing, because to me that means NO gun laws and I'm sure that means to you LOTS of gun laws, right?
Well, as far as I know, you're not allowed to carry around weapons randomly, and you're allowed to own hunting rifles, as long as you have them registered. I've never seen guns sold anywhere, although they might be sold in unpopulated areas...
There's really not a gun culture here at all though, so people needing guns on a regular basis is kind of not a real point. I know only one person who owns hunting rifles and he never uses them, they're just locked up, left over from a time when he went hunting regularly.
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
I want no gun laws as well.
I would be ok (although not happy) with only hunting rifles permitted. Being forbidden to carry them pretty much whenever and wherever I please is a problem, but in the house would be somewhat tolerable. Registration is not good at all, and seems to be where the US is heading.
Not that I own any guns. Too many barbaric laws that increase penalties for guns being near illegal substances. Besides, my aim is horrible.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
No, I'm for laws against guns.
You want to carry guns around with you? For protection or just because you can? Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I don't understand the problem with registration; as long as you are allowed guns at all, what are you objecting to?
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
I want to be allowed to carry guns around. I doubt that I would carry them around, but if I did it would be for protection. If you were a mugger, would you pick the guy with a visible firearm to attack?
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
If they know you have a gun, they can use the list when they decide to take them away from you. Also, I am generally against registration of anything for any reason by the government. I do not trust them.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
If you carried a gun here, people would call the police. Here, you would be the one considered dangerous.
Pepper spray is the worst weapon I've seen to ward off muggers. Others include whistles, keys looped around knuckles and cell phones. The likleyhood of being mugged by a gun-toting mugger here is so slim that carrying a gun would be overkill, at least in most areas.
EDIT: If we're still talking about Canada, unless you actually start doing bad stuff with a gun no one's even going to care you have it. If you shoot someone, then they might confiscate it.
[ November 05, 2004, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Isn't that basically a slippery-slope argument, saying that registration is the first step to no guns?
Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
I'm concerned by the fact that, according to your list, you've seen 4 muggings. And I thought I lived in the seedy underbelly of Toronto!
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Sort of... if they ever decide to ban guns, registration would make it easier. Why risk it? If I wanted to commit a crime, I would steal someone else's registered gun, or make my own.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I meant to ward off muggings; these are things people I know carry not things they have used.
I've never heard of a mugging here. if you're stupid and you walk alone through Queen's Park at midnight, sure, you might be harrassed but that's kind of your own fault.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
My gun-nut ex-fiance believes that one of the main purposes of owning guns is to be able to defend our country through guerrilla warfare in the event we are invaded and overrun by the enemy. (Gee, kinda like the Iraqis are doing now, now that I think about it.) If all the guns are registered, not only could our government take them away if the commie-pinko-liberals (like me!) came to power, but if that list fell into the wrong hands during wartime the occupiers would know who had the guns. Not very effective for fighting them off.
In order to fight back effectively, he believed you should own the same types of guns that are used in all of the world's major militaries, so you can take ammunition off of the bodies of friend or foe. He does. Or at least did, when we broke up last year.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
We have a dozen like that in our unit. I am glad I know them, they are prepared enough for me to get armed too!
I love hunting!
By the way, what is the tax rate up there? I have only seen the mathmatical models for socialist cost in economics, I have no current info.
BC
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
If your friends would share their guns with you, then no, they are not like my ex.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
The tax rate varies by province for provincial taxes (comparable to our state taxes), and the federal tax is staggered by income, just like ours. The average Canadian IIRC pays about 25-30% in combined (provincial and federal) income tax each year.
Of course, this includes health care. Some provinces have surcharges, but they are nominal in comparison.
[ November 05, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
There's also sales tax, which varies from province to province. In Ontario, it's 15%.
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Uh... it is my fault that some asshole attacks me when I am minding my own business? Sounds as though it is the fault of that hussy for wearing revealing clothing.
BC, America is pretty much just as socialist as Canada, we just suck at it more.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
No; I mean if you don't take the good roads then although it is a horrible thing to happen and obviously is a huge problem, it was somewhat solvable without the use of escorts or deterrents or whatever. Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
Why should I be forced to inconvenience myself? I am doing nothing wrong.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Well that's your choice, and that's fine. Posted by Sweet William (Member # 5212) on :
C'mon everybody. I think all the losers need to stay, if only so Rush and Arnold can taunt them mercilessly.
But then, if you all leave, that would be okay, because we could immediately start drilling in ANWR and raping Jellystone.
And more baby seal meat for the rest of us!!!
Rock on. Check Travelocity and Orbitz for some killer flights to Chechnya.
Or Ireland. Finally!!! Somebody finally goes back to Ireland!
You've heard the one about Irish boomerangs, right? They never come back, but they get drunk and sing about wanting to all the time.
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I'm WAIIITINGGGGG..... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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