I'm a little worried, though. I'm worried that she's compromised because of her loyalty to Bush was greater than her loyalty to sanity, and I'm worried that she won't be effective as a diplomat because of that. Also, she lost in a few power tussles with the macho hawks in the defense department.
On the other hand, she absolutely has the trust of the president.
And hot dang, we will (if approved) have a black woman Secratary of State. Condoleeza Rice was 50% of the reason I voted for Bush the first time around, and this makes me very happy.
quote:Born in segregated Alabama in 1954, Rice entered college at 15 and by 26 had earned a Ph.D. in international affairs from the University of Denver. While there, one of her mentors was professor Joseph Korbel -- the father of Madeleine Albright, the only other woman to hold the portfolio of secretary of state.
In 1981, Rice moved to California to take up a political science professorship at Stanford, where she built a reputation as an expert on the Soviet Union. She later served as a National Security Council staffer during the administration of Bush's father, when communism was crumbling in Europe.
Rice, who speaks four languages, is also an accomplished figure skater and classically trained pianist. In April 2002, she took the stage at Washington's Constitution Hall to perform with acclaimed cellist Yo-Yo Ma.
[ November 16, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I like Condy Rice. I have an immense amount of respect for her, and have not a little bit of pride in her connection to my home state.
I remember saying to my husband before the debates, that if you could tag team and send someone in for you, and Bush sent in her, there would be no contest.
And I admit, I like to see that our president respects and relies on the counsel of intelligent women.
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Katie, are you at work? (Which is to say, not on AIM?)
Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
She's okay, but I hope I'm never asked to spell her first name.
Posted by Frisco (Member # 3765) on :
Or "secretary", eh kat? Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
That's the feminine spelling.
Twink, I'm at work, but I don't really have AIM here. It's very sad. I am on my lunch break, though.
[ November 16, 2004, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
I'm leery of this. Rice has stated that she doesn't really like being a diplomat, that she prefers to deal in facts, not relationships.
On the international relationship scale, Powell was America's saving grace. Even the mid-east folks liked him, or at least respected him.
It will be interesting to see if Rice gets similar treatment.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I have serious problems with Rice, specifically with her repeated lies to the 9/11 commission regarding the contents of memos (since declassified) that Bush received, the plans of the administration before the war, and the administration's preparations before 9/11.
For instance, here's something Rice said:
quote:Through the spring and summer of 2001, the national security team developed a strategy to eliminate al Qaeda — which was expected to take years. Our strategy marshaled all elements of national power to take down the network, not just respond to individual attacks with law enforcement measures. Our plan called for military options to attack al Qaeda and Taliban leadership, ground forces and other targets — taking the fight to the enemy where he lived.
Here's a simple question asked Bush's Deputy Secretary of State, Richard Armitage:
"Is it true, as Dr. Rice said, 'Our plan called for military options to attack Al Qaida and Taliban leadership'?"
His answer: "No, I think that was amended after the horror of 9/11."
Posted by naledge (Member # 392) on :
While the act of Powell's resignation is not surprising, I think it is regrettable. The administration is shedding all forms of moderation in it's foreign policy, and going full hawk, evidenced by Bush's endorsement of Condi for the position. To be honest, I feel that Condi has no sense of diplomacy or tact about her, and her advancement into this position is merely a Neo-con takeover over the last major governmental post that could force the white house to examine it's proposed solutions to foreign affairs. Powell by nature of his personality, past actions, and efforts to forge relationships with world leaders is the only reason I believed countries still engaged the US seriously at a diplomatic and political level. The man carries weight because his method of approaching and solving problems show some sort of critical thinking of consequences before action. After all, I am convinced the only reason we did not have troops rumbling into downtown Baghdad in the fall of 2002 was that Powell opposed pre-emptive strikes against Iraq without UN approval or some sort of coalition building. I know he was thoroughly criticized by right wing politicians and pundits for being soft, initially, on the Iraq issue, but to those people I point my finger to his job title of SECRETARY OF STATE- NOT DEFENSE, he's supposed to find diplomatic solutions to the US's problems. With Condi at the post, a transplant from the Neo-con school of thought of "shoot first ask questions later", I wonder if she can face a crisis and objectively search for solutions through a more peaceful lens. I pray that she will.
-nal
[ November 16, 2004, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: naledge ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
It is seriously doubtful that Rice could be as good as Powell in this position, and given that Powell was unable to make this administration more diplomatic, I can't see Rice succeeding at all.
It's just one more piece in the house of cards....
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
She doesn't like dealing with people. I don't know if she is a complete misanthrope, but I don't think she is a bleeding heart anything. And Scott, you can say she likes facts, but when those facts include Hussein's large stockpiles of WMDs, I'm suspicious. I don't care if she is black. I don't care if she is a she. When her credentials hinge on studying Law and political science, and it's incredible how far you can get in those fields without ever having to like people, and you throw her ties to Chevron on top of this, there is no way that she has my confidence.
As smart as Clinton was, he was a poor husband. As nice as Bush is, he was the wrong judge on Iraq. And as smart as Rice may be, she is a poor pick for Sec of State.
[ November 16, 2004, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I'm with Irami on this one, despite being glad to see a smart, black woman in such a powerful position. Powell had credibility abroad, and he was moderate. His moderate-ness is what got him booted, and THAT'S what makes my guts clench at this news.
On the other hand, Republicans are about to make a black a woman the third most powerful person in our government (assuming you believe the polite fiction that the VP is the second).
Who'd a thunk it?
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I really like Dr. Rice. I think she is very qualified for the job..
that said...... I do worry about the fact that she will have to interact with other countries and cultures -- some of which hold women in very low regard and may not respect her or her opinions at all. We have respect for her here, but there will be world leaders of other countries who won't have that respect, simply because she is a woman. And since she will be dealing with the mideast crisis a lot...I worry.
Farmgirl
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:His moderate-ness is what got him booted, and THAT'S what makes my guts clench at this news.
CP said that he'd only serve one term when he accepted the post.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Look, as NSA, the miscalculation of Husseins WMD program has is one of the biggest "whoops" of my lifetime, and I'm including the Iran/Contra crime, and the wholesale misreading of the sentiment of the Iraqies on the ground, leading to this insurgency. By some standards, that's enough to consider her performance an unmitigated disaster.
[ November 16, 2004, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I have respect for many of her accomplishments. I have little respect for the low public morals she has demonstrated.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
Sorry, Scott. I was merely speaking from what I'd read in This article . You could very well be right, though I think there was some conflict between Powell and the baby Bush.
And, I'm not speaking from a partisan POV. I'm neither a Democrat or a Republican. I've recently become a DC .
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
I watched a documentary on the CBC about Donald Rumsfeld recently. According to it, there was a nasty conflict over Iraq between Powell and Rumsfeld, and it became personal. Since the President evidently threw his weight behind Rumsfeld, Powell was probably upset.
But he did say, upon appointment, that he only planned to serve the one term. So I imagine it's his original plans dovetailing quite closely with his own desires. Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
quote:That's the feminine spelling.
By that, do you mean that's the way females spell it, or that's the way it's spelled when applied to a female?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Obviously it's the second.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
O.o kat's a boy? *world turns upside-down*
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 619) on :
The Secretary of State is pretty high up in the line for President, IIRC.
That means if a disaster occurs, we could have our first black woman President. Who'd think she would be Republican?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
First cabinet officer in the line of succession, so I think that makes her fourth - VP, Speaker of the House, President Pro Tem of the Senate, then Secretary of State.
Dagonee
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Who'd think she would be Republican?"
Everyone, I imagine.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
quote:Who'd think she would be Republican?
This is the third time I've seen this, and it's interesting to me.
*raises hand* I did. I think our first minority and/or woman president MUST be Republican because white males most often vote Republican, and seeing 70% of the population is white and slightly less than half are male, there's no way to get there without getting some of that vote.
I'm bemused that it's such a radical idea. Why wouldn't the Republicans put one up? It knocks holes in the It's The Racist Party idea, but maybe, just maybe, people are Republican for other reasons.
[ November 16, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"To be honest, I feel that Condi has no sense of diplomacy or tact about her, and her advancement into this position is merely a Neo-con takeover over the last major governmental post that could force the white house to examine it's proposed solutions to foreign affairs."
This is exactly how I feel. Yikes.
Posted by Johnny Lee Wombat (Member # 7021) on :
Why do people so often spell 'racist' as 'rascist'? I dont' get it.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*sighs and edits*
Mostly likely because of "fascist".
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
For the record, I don't think that the Republican party is the party of racists. I think it's the Party that culturally embraces traditional white guy values, honest. It seems that Rice has those values as much as Cheney or Rumsfeld or anyone else.
[ November 16, 2004, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I wasn't picking on you, Kat. I can't spell worth a damn, anyway. I really was curious why.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Are you Johnny Lee?
Everytime I see that name, I think of Angelina Jolie. This is what happens when you subscribe to Entertainment Weekly instead of The New Yorker.
Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I agree that the first minority or female president will probably be Republican. I just thought it was interesting that the Republicans would be the ones to put a person in that demographic in an appointed position.
To win an election, I'd expect her to be Republican, but you don't see a lot of minority appointments, or at least not until the last few presidents. And I think it's a Good Thing that it's happening now.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Just as an aside, and as a non-American: What do you all think of the possibility of Colin Powell as a future president?
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
He says he will not run - his wife especially is against the idea.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
It'll be Obama in '08.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
Wasn't Obama born outside the US?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
No, Hawaii.
edit to add: and that wouldn't matter anyways, provided his parents were US citizens.
[ November 16, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
How old is Obama, anyway? My impression is that he might still be a bit too young to be a serious contender in '08, but that an election or two after that he'll be the candidate of choice.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
He's only in his early 40's, and despite his recent surge in popularity, I don't think he'll be a serious contender. For one thing - senators rarely do well in presidential races and he just doesn't have that much experience.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's what I thought (about his age).
From what I've seen, the guy has the presence necessary to really electrify the public. Give him a few more years to develop experience and I think you'll be surprised by how capable he'll prove himself to be.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
He has a lot going for him - he's intelligent, a good speaker, good looking. He could very well be a serious contender down the road. I just don't think it will be 08.
Posted by naledge (Member # 392) on :
quote: Just as an aside, and as a non-American: What do you all think of the possibility of Colin Powell as a future president?
Before 2000 election I believed his prospects were pretty high, he fit my criteria for qualities an African American candidate MUST have to gain any hope for election to President in the US:
1) High ranking military officer with combat experience. 2) Government leadership experience 3) Conservative leaning values on defense and foreign policy 4) Absolutely flawless, and I mean flawless background (no DUI's of any kind!) 5) Skin color light enough to give Americans who might have hang ups about race a little ease.
These criteria evolved from observations as a black male in context of the United Sates’ current and historical social and political landscape. There are other criteria, but that could be another thread.
Colin’s prospect now, IMHO, is certainly diminished with the proposition of vaulting Condi to the fourth slot in line govern the US. I see this move as the Republicans way of grooming her for a ticket slot in the next Presidential cycle, since they will be in need of producing a ticket that will ensure continued Republican reign in the white house. Bush definitely does not want McCain to be on that ticket, they can’t stand one another, and Guliani has a skeleton too many in his closet that might make it hard for strict evangelicals to support his candidacy. I think at one point in time the Republicans probably had really considered pushing Colin Powell to next level, but only if he lived up the ideals of the neo-conservative agenda. Unfortunately for Republicans, and thankfully for my sanity, he did not completely sell out to those beliefs.
-nal
[ November 16, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: naledge ]
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
How do you feel about Obama, nal? He doesn't fit your criteria.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I heard on a news report that Obama was pretty liberal, but then I read OSC saying that Obama would be the Dem presidential cnadidate he could really support. What's the take on him by conservative Democrats (I guess there are some)?
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:It'll be Obama in '08.
Irami,
FWIW, the sense I get here in Illinois is that Obama is smart enough to want to concentrate on being a solid and re-electable Senator here before "going national." If he aims for a candidacy in '08, he will seriously undermine establishing a track record for a Senate career that has barely begun.
I'm thinking 2012 or 2016 myself. And looking forward to it.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I would definitely vote for Barack Obama...I hope he does run soonly.
Hm, perhaps not soonly. Eventually anyway.
[ November 16, 2004, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
I think Obama will be the candidate of choice AFTER '08, when Hillary puts the final nail in the coffin of the current Democratic party
I suspect that Card likes Obama because he seems like a good, principled, reasonable guy, and not necessarily because their political platforms line up. Card is much more impressed, from what I've seen, by personal character than by lists of issues.
Posted by Phanto (Member # 5897) on :
I do not think much of Rice. Oh well. Except in the right kind of soup; then it's fantastic.
naledge: Please format your posts into paragraphs.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
Obama is a principled Liberal with energy and a deep well of moral knowledge. He loves his wife. He understands what that means. He loves his country. He understands what that means. He knows who he is. He understands what that means.
He is the kind of liberal who will tell a crowd of Union workers that they all like Nike shoes and Kenwood stereos, so the issues of free trade are not merely solved by closing imports.
He'll tell a board room full of energy executives that we need to be better stewards of the land and the National deficit because not only do we inherit the world from our parents, we borrow it from our children.
There will be six minorites who won't vote for him. Single women will adore him. Married women will tell their children to be like him. And people under 30 still won't vote, but they will have a positive feeling in their bones about America. White guys will vote for him with a respectable 43 percent.
He doesn't just happen to be the rising star in the party, he is there because he is good. And even better than being good, he is good and broke. He could have made big money working for a firm, but he chose to teach instead.
I can't be the only one who is ready for a post-Vietnam era President. Gore and Kerry were principled liberals too, but they were scared of being honest about their views to the midwest and the South. Kerry was deeper than Gore, but both were skimming the surface compared the dignity that Obama can show the Americans.
[ November 16, 2004, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by naledge (Member # 392) on :
quote:How do you feel about Obama, nal? He doesn't fit your criteria.
Belle, I really like Obama and I would support his bid for President. You’re quite right, he doesn't meet all the criteria I stated. That is exactly my point. He doesn't have all the qualities that I felt a candidate who is African American would have to possess to circumvent or defend against any attack from political rival or group that would undermine his or her attempt at getting the majority of the general population’s vote. Mind you, this ultimate candidate would have to take at least one or more southern state to have a fair shot of winning as evidenced by this past election. Although I agree with Obama's position on a majority of the issues, his message is consistent with the same theme that John Kerry campaigned on this year and lost. That is not to say the political climate and dynamics could change in time, but as of right now he would not have enough support to win. Of course Belle, I always reserve the right to be DEAD WRONG , and that may be the case with the prospect of Condi on a Republican ticket.
Reviewing the wording of my last post, I see I did not distinctly explain that the qualities I stated for such a candidate to possess should not be viewed as my own personal belief of what any candidate black or other color should have to gain MY vote. The criteria I stated in the last post was my attempt at deriving a set of traits that would make it possible for the election of a black president given my own knowledge of US history, racial relations, and political climate.
-nal
[ November 16, 2004, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: naledge ]
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
She has proven to be a willing but not very capable liar. I suspect that we are in for some very embarrassing moments in the months to come.
On the other hand, her accomplishments are quite impressive and she is likely to become a role model in many respects to a great many young people in America.
I only wish she was more committed to the truth as opposed to a party.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
naledge,
I think America is ready for a Black President. The country has been ready. Tiger Woods made us safe and powerful at the same time. We'll still scare the dickens out of some dads, but for the most part, way over fifty percent of the electorate is ready.
There'll be a civil war if he gets shot, though.
[ November 16, 2004, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by naledge (Member # 392) on :
quote: We'll still scare the dickens out of some dads
boy, do I have a story or two about that.
quote: There'll be a civil war if he gets shot, though.
-nal
[ November 16, 2004, 08:56 PM: Message edited by: naledge ]
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
You've been there, too. Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
As a non-American, Rice is a somewhat disturbing appointment for Secretary of State. Powell had a lot international respect. Rice - while a no doubt brilliant mind - is perhaps the reverse of Powell in this regard. Most people outside the US, I would suggest, see Rice very clearly within the neo-con framework that makes us all so uneasy. For Australia in particular, the loss of Powell is a powerful blow. Without Richard Armitage as Deputy Secretary of State, there is a good chance that Australia will have less of preferential treatment position in relation to US foreign policy as it is likely that policy will be dictated by the Pentagon, rather than the State Department, in this regard. While many of our leading politicians seem to be happy to see the back of Powell (our Prime Minister and Foreign Minister are just as gung-ho and hawkish as Rumsfeld and his ilk), the long-term implications may not be beneficial for our nation.
Posted by Ethics Gradient (Member # 878) on :
PS: If a married woman is elected to the Presidency, what title does her husband receive? "First Lord"? "First Gentleman"? "First Guy"? "Dude #1"? "Top Bloke"?
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