I'm rather curious about this question. I've heard of many people who do this, but rarely hear of a sucess story. So, does anyone go against the norm (or is the "norm" actually sucess, and I've only heard of the bad cases?)? Or, could anyone elaborate on why they do or do not work?
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Pssh, please. "In person" relationships don't even work these days. But you only live once, so you might as well try.
[ November 21, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Tater ]
Posted by digging_holes (Member # 6237) on :
Haven't you heard? Internet friends are really all perverted serial killer sickos who lure you away to some obscure part of the continent and you will only be seen on milk cartons after that.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Read the marriage thread and then decide.
-Trevor
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
They can work. I have an uncle who is married to someone he met online. They met through a board about a mutual interest, much like this. His business took him where she lived fairly often, so they were able to meet in real life quite a bit. Then she moved to the town where he lived. They dated for a year after that before they got married.
So I think the answer is, that as a place where you meet someone, it can work. But as a place to sustain a relationship? No.
Posted by EyeOfTheTiger (Member # 7045) on :
TMedina: Link?
AmkaProblemka: So they only work where immediate (or relatively soon) contact is possible?
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
It has been my experience (from watching others) that:
If you go online to find a relationship, you will find pain.
If you go online, and find yourself having a relationship, then you will find love.
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
Eye of the Tiger, your style and name and profile all bear a striking resemblence to someone I know....Is this coincidence....absolutely! But still, kinda freaky.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by AmkaProblemka (Member # 6495) on :
What Dan said. And yes, real life contact is pretty important.
That said, make sure that the first place you meet is neutral and public.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Check out my love story. Fahim and I are still happily married a whole year and a bit later. It worked for us. But then, we're both odd people to start with.
I have three other friends who met their husbands online. They've been married for between three and ten years. All are still going strong.
I'm gonna say, though, that it depends on a whole huge basket of factors.
Posted by Tater (Member # 7035) on :
Your story is great. Congratulations.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
And the best part was . . . I sold it to a magazine.
Thanks for the congrats. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I'm currently in my first online relationship...
A mutual friend decided we'd be perfect... so we started talking and and Sarah was right. Now Manda is coming to spend 5 days with me over the holidays...
And I'm Having her look at this thread to reassure her that i do have sane friends... lol
Manda
[ November 21, 2004, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
And of course, we've had our share of marriages between Hatrackers. And there's that matchmaker thread...
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
Sarah is me, so though it isn't a hatrack romance, I'm working on matchmaker titles.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
once earns you no tittles...
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
Here's a post of mine from Pweb (slightly edited) that I think somewhat applies here. I thought I'd present it and see what others thought about my view.
"I have a problem with calling it online dating; obviously you can't date in the conventional sense of the word. But I don't have a problem with the idea of being romantically involved with someone online.
Giving credit where credit is due, Lyraluthuen once said that meeting people online (platonically speaking but I'm using it to mean in any sense) is in some ways better for a relationship. It removes the creation of a first impression based solely on looks, which is something we are all guilty of in varying degrees, and allows you to get to know a person for what they think instead of how they look. Of course the physical component is important, but it shouldn't be the most important aspect in a relationship. Lyraluthuen also mentioned that you can have a stronger connection with someone online because in order for the relationship to move forward, again as either just friends or romantically, you have to be able to communicate. This, as I've heard and not actually known for myself, is a major problem with couples in the flesh.
As far as trusting the person you're talking to...you can only keep a lie for so long. It's not impossible, but in most cases it'd be extremely difficult to fool someone for an extended period of time. If you meet the person on an online community like Pweb, it gets more difficult to lie because you're dealing with more people you'd have to keep fooling; again, not impossible but difficult. Assuming you do meet them at a forum, you can get to know the person as fast or slow as you want. You can spend time getting to know them by their public behavior, i.e. posts in threads. Then you can move to PMing for a more private view of them. If you trust them up to this point, there's also messenger services and if you trust them then, there's always the possibility of moving to conversations on the phone. And for some people, this will be enough to deem the other trustworthy enough to meet. Also, it is possible to know someone in person for any length of time and be lied to or never know who they really are. I think that's just the chance you take in any relationship.
Where location is concerned, distance can be a problem but if the relationship gets serious enough, one could always move to be with the other one. It's really no different than going off to college and meeting someone and deciding to start a life with them somewhere. If you're too young to move, then take your time in the relationship because it may not be that serious and you may have more than one online relationship in your lifetime, and if it is, that serious, it would be worth the wait. You can just as easily commit yourself to a person you can't touch as you could to someone you can, especially when you've taken the time to get to know them.
I also have a problem with the term "real life" as opposed to online. Yes, there's a distinction between the two, one being tangible and the other not being that way but that in no way means that anything online is less real; you still have the potential to become attached. I know that on the other end of the monitor is a person who is breathing, thinking, feeling and taking up space in much the same way as I am.
With that said, I guess I don't buy into the fact that "online dating" is somehow less credible than "real life" dating. I also can't say I have a preference because I've never been out on a date but I do know that I have been judged on my appearance before or on a bad first impression and that got in the way of letting some people get to know the real me. That's not such an obstacle online."
So, my view is they can work in the same sense that in-person relationships can; they all take work.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Ask Bob_S and dana....
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
That's a great post, Uhleeuh. You're quite right about online relationships--whether friendships or romance--being just as real in many ways as "real life" relationships. And the two tend to blend pretty often. Just look at all the Hatrack get-togethers that happen all over the country.
Posted by EyeOfTheTiger (Member # 7045) on :
So there are a few success stories(people married, people getting married, whathaveyou), they're just not the norm. That's what I was looking for. But overall, thanks for the feedback. I have a few more questions, for those who say they work (or those who KNOW they work), but I'll only ask one at a time: What about the physical aspect? How do you handle not being able to physically see, touch, and hear each other?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: What about the physical aspect? How do you handle not being able to physically see, touch, and hear each other?
We used webcams to see each other. Sent each other pics. And used headphones with mics to talk to each other. We also talked on the phone.
But my case is a bit extreme - we were married two months after first encountering each other. Very very quick. And we were married only 8 hours after meeting in person for the first time.
But I don't know if this necessarily answers your real question. So fire away. I may or may not answer. Posted by A Rat Named Dog (Member # 699) on :
What I've found is that it's very easy to assume that an online relationship is "closer" or "more real" than an in-person relationship because you cut right through the social awkwardness and immediately get into intimate discussions that it might take you weeks or months to get comfortable enough for IRL.
Isn't that usually what you hear from people with online relationships? "We know each other so much better than we ever could in person! We share everything!" Well, the truth is that for a "real" relationship, your in-person rapport matters just as much as your "deeper" connection. Just as an in-person relationship that seems great at the flirting stage can become wrong and uncomfortable once you get to know each other better, so also can an online relationship based entirely on intimate conversations become wrong and uncomfortable once you meet up in person.
So I'm not saying you shouldn't try an online relationship. My only advice is, don't fool yourself into thinking it's a complete relationship until you've met up in person, and certainly don't start thinking the relationship you have is superior because you managed to get so close without ever meeting. That's actually the easy part. The hard part is still ahead of you.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
My husband and I met online. We e-mailed back and forth for quite a while, then talked, hit it off, he came to see me, I came to see him, and a few months later we were engaged. Six months after that, we were sealed in the Los Angeles Temple, I moved to Dallas, and a year and a half (almost) later, we have a baby daughter and are very happy. I loved the fact that I knew so much about him before I ever met him; when you can't go on dates, you end up talking about really personal stuff instead. I think the Internet is a great tool for long-distance relationships, but all long-distance relationships are hard. They can work if you make them, but only, I think, if they're going somewhere are they ever very successful in the long-term.
One drawback: we had huge phone bills. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I have a good friend who met her current boyfriend on OKcupid.com. But she's said that she had no feelings for him but friendship and a tiny crush until she actually met him. He, I believe, was head over heels though.
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
I've been with my girl now for almost 2 years and we met online. We've been living together for almost 18 months now and it's great.
I've been doing the online dating as a normal part of my dating activities since the mid ninties. I have a tendancy to move around a lot, so it only made sense, since it can be hard to meet people in a new town.
I've had some spectacular experiences and some downright odd ones. But the worst ever relationships that I've had started IRL....
Anyway, the point is, as someone said above, that you can't keep up a lie forever. So yeah, sometimes you meet idiots and fakes, but no more often than IRL.
Posted by EyeOfTheTiger (Member # 7045) on :
Two months? Wow. And do most people in "online relationships" do that, with the webcams and headphones and such? And I can only imagine the phonebills, with so many long distance phone calls. Tell me if I've got any of this wrong: It generally helps that neither of you are looking for a relationship, physical contact is a necessity within a short period of time - a few months perhaps?, and the physical aspect is done through technology such as webcams, pictures, and headphone sets. Is that all correct? And don't worry, I have plenty more questions. And to all of those who told me to try it, that's not why I'm asking, I'm just extremely curious about it, given the public impression of success, or lack thereof, of these types of relationships.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
This isn't entirely relevant because my boyfriend and I met IRL. however, when we first started dating we talked about important stuff (deeper connection, etc.) only online. As time has gone by we've turned around, and now we talk about important stuff in person and our online conversations are less important. I value the comfort we have with each other, but I have to admit it makes IM boring.
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
quote: And do most people in "online relationships" do that, with the webcams and headphones and such?
I don't know about most, but I do that. Mics and headphones for talking-we only use phones on occasion since our mics work just as well as our cells and we don't have to worry about minutes- and webcams and pictures for seeing each other.
quote: physical contact is a necessity within a short period of time - a few months perhaps?,
Not necessarily. I'd say it differs depending on the couple. I know a couple who met online 3 years ago and started dating one year ago. They met for the first time in person just recently.
Oh, they also uses webcams to see each other and for hearing each other, they use phone cards and cell phones.
[ November 22, 2004, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Uhleeuh ]
Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :
I dunno if this counts, since Raia and I met in person and went out in person for two months before she headed off to Israel. But here we are, going on 6 months and we're still very happy with each other. Calling Israel is extremely expensive, and calling here from Israel is also extremely expensive so most of our contact has had to be online since she left, but its enough
[ November 22, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Alcon ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: Two months? Wow. And do most people in "online relationships" do that, with the webcams and headphones and such? And I can only imagine the phonebills, with so many long distance phone calls. Tell me if I've got any of this wrong: It generally helps that neither of you are looking for a relationship, physical contact is a necessity within a short period of time - a few months perhaps?, and the physical aspect is done through technology such as webcams, pictures, and headphone sets. Is that all correct?
Yeah, I know. Two months usually sets most jaws dropping. Especially when I add that other bit about getting married 8 hours after we met in person. It's quite hilarious! And I sent the marriage announcement out after the fact. I wasn't about to let anyone else's negative energy get in the way of my happiness.
We only used phone/cell phone when internet chatting wasn't possible. In other words, phone bills not so much of an issue. But we were also dealing with international issues - time zones being one of them. I was on the wet coast of Canada (British Columbia), and he was in Sri Lanka (where we both are now), and our clocks were 12 hours out. Or was it eleven or thirteen? Whatever.
In our case, I wasn't looking, but he was. And I found him by downloading a program he wrote. I'm prejudiced against chat rooms and online dating services. Gave them a try a long time ago, but that was a dismal failure. The dating service, not the chat thing. I never bothered with online chat.
Physical contact within a few months - probably. For us, by the time we knew we were getting married to the time I left Canada, it was three weeks. Not hardly enough time to pack up, sell what I can, and move. But I did it anyway. Even though I hadn't met him in person, I already knew that he was right for me and that he was the right person for me to marry. And we also both acknowledged that that was long enough to be apart. We had to be together. Had to. So, yeah.
Would it have been better to meet in person before then? I don't know. I have enough of my own screwed-up attitudes and quirks that I suspect, for me, the way it worked out was quite possibly the only way it could have worked out such that I didn't have the opportunity to destroy it. If we'd met in person first, I never would have looked at him a second time. I wouldn't have wanted to get to know him. Not because there's anything wrong with him - well, nothing other than the usual male stuff. But I would have found reasons to dismiss this, or wreck that, or whatever. Doesn't matter what. But I would have found a way to destroy any possibilities.
But I went with it, and it worked out very well the way it worked out for us. Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
Psst... Sarah, I'm still the matchmaker around here, you don't get to take that away from me just yet!
(edit: Alcon, how did I miss your post? Yes, it's enough! )
[ November 22, 2004, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Raia ]
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
I had only two steady relationships before the current one. Both started online. The first lasted almost two years. The second (you might remember this one. I regretfully shamed myself before you all when it ended) lasted 2 years and 8 months. Now it's when I say that online relationships does not work, right? Wrong. They worked nicely. The reason why they ended had nothing to do with the fact they started online. They'd have ended no matter where or how I met the persons in question. So, I guess it's a way like any other, to find friends or significant others.
Than, for the first time, I'm in a (seemingly - it's too soon yet) serious relationship with someone I didn't met online (she's an old friend). So...who knows? And...oh, well...I stepped over the boundaries for this thread. I'm outta here. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
(Eduardo Sauron, you did nothing of the sort. I'm impressed with how you handled everything, and it makes it even easier to be happy for you in your new relationship. )
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Christy and I met online, although it'd be a stretch to call ours an online relationship.
Posted by MaydayDesiax (Member # 5012) on :
Mine and Bernard's relationship would be hard to define as 'online' since we met in person and I got my first kiss from him ( it was on the cheek, but still... ::dances:: ) before we even spoke online. For us, the internet is a wonderful tool to keep in contact, as well as the telephone (thank God for free minutes after nine).
It always makes me wonder, though, when I think about it... My great-grandparents had a long distance relationship too, in the early '20s. If it's hard enough for me with IM, telephone calls every night, and email, it must have been tortue for her, who only had email and who's boyfriend was too poor to afford a phone (my great-grandmother was considerably well off--her father owned the first car dealership in Memphis, Tenn).
I guess to answer your question, Eye, online relationships are just like any other kind of relationship. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Yes, yes they do work.
<--*Will be in Montana by tonight due to this very ... phenomenon*
Hobbes Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: Tell me if I've got any of this wrong: It generally helps that neither of you are looking for a relationship, physical contact is a necessity within a short period of time - a few months perhaps?
In my case, we both were looking for relationships, just not with each-other or online ones... In fact our first conversation was about the total stupidity of the opposite sex (she defended woman, I knew defending men was a waste of my words).
As to the physical contact... yes, it is important and I'm going insane waiting for her to come and visit. I tend to be rather touchy feelly in relationships (just ask raia, who once slapped me for kissing her on top of the head in the school cafeteria), so this whole not physically being near is driving me up a wall. I mean we've traded pictures... and talk on our cells after 9 her time (10 my time)... but thats about it... But I have to say, when you've gotten to know someone so well, It's still not easy, but it's doable to not be able to hold them and whisper sweet nothings into their ears...
Posted by Arthur (Member # 4026) on :
The Tick and I met online close to 8 years ago. We were a long distance online relationship - Buffalo, NY to Virginia beach. We have been married for 4 1/2 years and have a 1 1/2 year old. We talked online and knew each other pretty well before we ever met in person.
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
Has any relationships started on Hatrack?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
No.
Added: Oh wait, you're new. Yes, some have started, and a few have gotten married. No one has gotten divorced yet.
[ November 22, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
None at all.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
*chortle*
Quite a few, actually.
<--- in one that could be said to have started "on" hatrack.
BTW, did you get my email lem?
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i'm in that boat with russell. it could be said that my relationship started on hatrack.
dating hatrack people is stupid. you shouldn't do it. they are all so lame! and smelly.
Posted by Cecily (Member # 5675) on :
So how many of those hatrack relationships that have started are still going? (or married?) Here are the ones that I know of for sure...
dkw and Bob (to be married in 2005) Annie and Hobbes Ben and Ophelia
I know I'm forgetting several more...
Posted by FriendlyNeighborhoodWitch (Member # 6317) on :
My Mom and her husband Karl met online through a dating service about 3 years ago. Karl is a farmer in Wichita, and at the time my Mother was living in a small, small town named Osawatomi near Kansas City, Kansas. My Mom was working on climbing her way up the corporate chain for Sprint, and at the time was working on some 'special projects' that were going on at the time. Totally unrelated interests, but they got to talking, and soon Mom was driving back and forth to Wichita and Karl was going the other way up the Osawatomi. They got married I think May of 2003, and my Mom seems content being a farmer's wife. Personally, I never thought I'd see it happen, but I think I'm happy to have my Mom living that much closer to where I am in Oklahoma.
I remind her every time that she complains about the pigs getting out of their pen that she's complaining about self-inflicted wounds. But Karl really is a great guy, and I'm glad to have him as my Step-Father.
Posted by Cecily (Member # 5675) on :
I guess the question could also be "Do online relationships work for everyone?" Of course, what we're answering with the examples in this thread is no. I honestly don't think it would work for me. I have such a fear of rejection complex that I would have a terrible time revealing anything about myself to anyone during the 'getting to know you' stage. There's something about someone asking me about myself in person that makes it a little easier for me to believe that they actually want to know.
But, this is not to say that I'm opposed to online relationships. But in my case, it would have to be completely accidental, a la Annie and Hobbes.
[ November 22, 2004, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Cecily ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Yep, you missed at least a few on that list, here's some more off the top of my head:
Brinestone and Jon Boy Fugu13 and Toretha Strider and Leonide
Posted by Cecily (Member # 5675) on :
*slaps forehead* And I knew those too!! Jeez. Sorry fugu. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
wait a minute.... she's still putting up with you... ok...
By the way My Mom loved the scotch fugu, and i only drank about 3/4 of the bottle (I thought you said that stuff would destroy my intestines...) I mean it's good, but not as violent as i expected....
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Single malt scotch is smooth, just very intense.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Didn't Dean and Mikey meet on here, too? That was long enough ago I really can't remember.
Posted by Jaiden (Member # 2099) on :
Ted (Pod) and I are still going strong... it's a few months short of three years now.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
quote: That was long enough ago I really can't remember.
*pat pat* Yeah, the memory is the second thing to go.
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
My friend Beth from college married her net sweetheart... a guy from Finland, named Olli.
They talked for a year online...then phone...and for the second year he came over once or twice. Then for the third year she went over there. She went to go live in Finland for awhile after her graduation... and the next year they moved back to Michigan and got married (I was in their wedding party *yay!*).
BUT... after two years Olli started to have an online affair with another girl from California. They got divorced a couple years ago now.. ah well...
[ November 23, 2004, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
What's the first thing to go?
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
um . . . I forget . . .
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
How 'bout Mack and T_Smith?
Posted by EyeOfTheTiger (Member # 7045) on :
That's quite a few for a webboard. But, how many have tried here but *aren't* still together?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Lets see, Mack and . . . was it FlyingCow? tried it for a bit.
who else . . .
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Alcon and Raia are together?!? Missed that one...
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Yes, there together now, and i'm proud to say, that started to show while they were ignoring the rest of us at my post prom party. It was so cute, they maintained for almost a month that they didn't have an interest in eachother...
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
I just (today) met someone that I first met online, if that makes any sense. She's smart and pretty. I hope it works out; she did seem interested. Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote: Strider and Leonide
::enters thread to once again claim (rightful or not) credit for this::
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
There have been four failed Hatrack relationships that I can think of off-hand. In most cases, one of the people involved seems to stop regularly posting to the board; I don't know if there's some conscious "who gets custody of Hatrack" decision made or not.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
If Tony and I break up, I so get Hatrack custody.
(Not that we're breaking up.... Honey? )
[ November 23, 2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: imogen ]
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Icky , you're the second person I talked to who claims credit for that. You guys need to share or something.
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
I'll bet Eddie's pulling the "well, if I had hit on her, things would've turned out differently" card.
Puh.
Lease.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
No, actually, he said you were too innocent for him, but just about right for Strider Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
It's true.
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
quote:I'll bet Eddie's pulling the "well, if I had hit on her, things would've turned out differently" card.
Puh.
Lease.
Deny, deny, deny...
Posted by Raia (Member # 4700) on :
quote: I tend to be rather touchy feelly in relationships (just ask raia, who once slapped me for kissing her on top of the head in the school cafeteria), so this whole not physically being near is driving me up a wall.
Yes, he does tend to be rather touchy-feely, I have noticed that as well... he also tends to not listen when you tell him you're uncomfortable with that in public.
*slaps Stryker again*
(edit: I missed this):
quote: It was so cute, they maintained for almost a month that they didn't have an interest in eachother...
We did NOT! We started going out less than a WEEK after prom!
*slaps Stryker yet again*
And yes, Corwin, Alcon and I are together.
[ November 24, 2004, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Raia ]
Posted by Lalo (Member # 3772) on :
Actually, though I would normally laugh at Internet relationships, I've fallen rather madly for a woman I met over it. As in, long-term. I'm going to Ohio to be with her sometime in the next three months, but it started over this -- and as a result, I'm having trouble with the mockery I'd usually have for long-distance online relationships.
I will say, though, all those in this situation should thank god for webcams and Skype. It's an amazing age we live in.
Posted by Pixie (Member # 4043) on :
BlackFox and I met through Hatrack a little under three years ago. We were very close friends for a good six months or so at first but, as of next month, we'll have been together as a couple for two years.
So, yes, online relationships can work, and often wonderfully when they do. I think a large part of that is because the distance forces you to emphasize communication early on, and a mutual emphasis of trust and honesty and character comes with that. Online relationships, like any other relationship, can also fail, and perhaps they do so more frequently because of the extra difficulties they come with but...
::grins:: It's far more than worth it.
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
My wife and I are strictly IRL.
I don't think I'd like it much if she was a regular here at Hatrack. Not that I'd be embarrased for her to see my posts here (or any other online activity, for that matter). And I wouldn't mind reading what she has to say. It's just...I don't know. It would be like two different relationships.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I love it when Cor posts here (we met IRL, though). I wish she posted more often, but Hatrack would cut into her SIMs time, and we can't have that, of course.
-o-
Kama, Leo doesn't seem to be contradicting my claim.
(Who else is taking credit? Frisco or John? I will share credit with John, if he's claiming it. )
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
Frisco, but I don't think I ever talked to Leto about this. If I did, he prolly would, too
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
Manda![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
![[Blushing]](graemlins/blushing.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)