Massive, sprawling, and often tiresome, Stone's newest film clocks in at three hours of film. I would guess about two hours of the film are comprised of Alexander, played by Colin Farell, crying and looking distraught, half an hour of his mom, Angelina Jolie being a cold bitch, and about half an hour of scenes of war.
I like almost all of Oliver Stone's work. I don't have a political problem with Mr. Stone, as some people apparently do. Nevertheless, I can't bring myself to really recommend this to anyone, particularly at full price, though I did like the cinematography and the sets were pretty cool, but beyond that, meh.
And, oh, yes, the accents in this movie are pretty funny. For instance, I think about half of the 'Greeks' spoke with a Scottish accent, including Alexander the Great himself.
Posted by Bella Bee (Member # 7027) on :
When we KNOW that evenyone in the ancient world talked as if they came from London or L.A.
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
Well I was planning on going to see it this weekend but maybe I'll wait 'til it comes to the discount show. Thanks for saving me $$$ I hate paying full price for a movie and being disappointed.
Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
Go see it at a drive in. I don't know about other drive ins, but the one I work at only charges $5.75 for admission and you get to see 2 movies for that price.
I realize that not everyone has a drive in near them, but those who do should consider it.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
You expected them maybe to have Greek accents?
I actually expect this movie to suck. I've expected it since I first learned about it. But I've known for just as long that I am going to go see it. Not because I'm hoping it'll surprise me and be good. Not because I like Oliver Stone. Not because I have some particular interest in Alexander himself. (I actually feel he is somewhat overrated.)
No, I'm going to go see it because I want to support the genre. Historical epics used to be fairly common--look at Ben Hur and Spartacus. Then they just disappeared, and for the longest time no one even tried. Well, now they're doing them again, and I want to support that. Even though each one that comes out is overdone and shows a blatant disregard for historical fact, I still want to support the genre. My theory is, if historical epics keep being made, then maybe it'll get more people interested in history. Then maybe more people will know a little bit more about history, and the fake-history films will get pushed aside to make room for more true-history films. Then someday we can have historical epics that are actually good.
It's far-fetched, I know, but it's still a nice dream.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I'm going to see it just because I love to see guys in those awesome looking Greek helmets smahing up the dreaded Persians! What I'm REALLY waiting for is the movie about Thermopylae. Steven Pressfield's Gates of Fire is what I'm holding out for.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
*Kind of, sort of spoilers in this post*
Verily, they should have had no accent. While I agree that no one knows for sure what an ancient Greek accent would sound like, this is beside the point. We do know what a Scottish accent sounds like. The actors potraying Macedonians in the film should all have had *no* accent. The object of an actor's voice is to help the audience fall into whatever story the actor is playing a part in telling, and if the actor's voice does not help set time, place, and character, then the actor is failing in his duty and if the actor can't get rid of his accent, the director should never have cast him or her. A Scottish accent does not help the audience to believe that these are Macedonians!
In addition, in the case of 'Alexander', this becomes doubly imprtant since one of the important themes of the movie is that Alexander was not just 'great' as a military conqueror, he was great because of his vision to unite Europe and Asia as a common (Greek) people, that he did not see other non-Macedonians as barbarians to enslave, but rather people, and that this vision was ultimately his downfall because many of the chief Macedonians in his inner circle did not share it and poisoned him for it.
One of the ways the movie potrayed non-Macedonians in the movie was through accent. For instance, Jolie was supposed to be a non-Macedonian and spoke with some kind of weird accent. This is fine because she is supposed to be foreign. In this case, her accent helps to further both the character and the story. The various Scottish/Irish/English accents of the Macedonians had an opposite effect for me.
[ November 25, 2004, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Oh, and I agree with you, Verily, that the historical epic should be supported. I love it, myself, and like I said, the sets and cinematography are nice. I just don't know if they are worth the price of the movie, for a lot of people.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Well, the only way to have no accent is to speak in a dead flat monotone that only a computer could pull off.
But aside from that, I actually don't care about the accents within a historical film as long as they are consistent within the film. After all, the dialogue is being translated into English anyway. The characters themselves are not speaking English--the actors are speaking English to represent whatever language it is their character actually uses. So why shouldn't they speak with an English-speaker's accent? If everyone in the film has a Scottish accent, I don't even notice; I just take it for granted that it's either a Scottish film, or it at least has a primarily Scottish cast. It doesn't bother me.
That said, I did say that it should be consistent within the film. If one character has one accent, and another character who is supposed to be from the same region and the same social class has a completely different accent, that can be jarring.
Accents should also be as correct as possible when the characters themselves are speaking English. If they made a movie about the Punic Wars in which all the Romans had, say, Irish accents, I'd just accept that it was an Irish movie and not notice. If they made a movie about the American Civil War in which all the Confederates had Irish accents . . . well, that would just be absurd.
It annoyed me at first that in the movie Shogun, all the Dutch characters had British accents while the one character in the entire film who was actually supposed to be English had an American accent. But then I remembered that none of the characters were speaking English anyway. English, in that film, was used to represent Portuguese. ("Thee/thou" form English represented Latin.) So ultimately it didn't matter who had what accent--the accents were used to differentiate background among characters whose dialogue was all being "translated" for our benefit anyway, so it didn't really matter.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't agree that lack of accent equals monotone. I got ito this conversation once before with Icarus, and all I can say is that some accents are much less noticable to American ears than others.
A Scottish accent has a very definite connotation to my American ears, which is definitely not ancient Greek.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
By the way, did you catch the Sci-Fi channel's 'Odysseus'? I didn't catch all of it, but what I did see, I thought it was fairly well done.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Was that the "Odysseus" with Vanessa Williams, Storm? I can't remember anyone else's name...
EDIT: Looked it up. Armand Assante as Odysseus, and Vanessa Willams as Calypso.
And thanks for the heads-up. I might have gotten dragged into it by one of my classics friends, but now I think I'll wait till it comes cheap around here.
[ November 25, 2004, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Eaquae Legit ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Yep, that's the Odysseus.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
Man, I remember loving that TV movie when it came out, way back when. I'd never read the Odyssey, just a "children's adaption," but I loved it. Wow, memories...
I wonder what it would be like if I watched it now. Hmm.
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
Cashew-- I met Steven Pressfield recently. He came to sign his new book, Virtues of War (which is about Alexander, incidentally). He was an awesome guest, polite (he stood and introduced himself every time someone came to the table, and shook their hands), giving of his time (he stayed longer than advertised, because there was such a long line) and an incredibly, incredibly popular author with the cadets here at West Point (the U.S. Military Academy, where young men and women are trained to be Army Officers). I hope that Gates of Fire does get made into a movie, because that means that Mr. Pressfield will come visit us at the Bookstore again. He was a doll. Now that James Bradley person ( Flyboys and Flags of Our Fathers ) was a different sort of horse altogether. But that's another thread.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:I don't agree that lack of accent equals monotone. I got ito this conversation once before with Icarus, and all I can say is that some accents are much less noticable to American ears than others.
Yes, but that's not no accent. That's just "accent that's not too different from mine."
And what are "American" ears? To someone from rural Mississippi, a Yankee definitely has an accent. (And vice versa, obviously.) Everyone tends to think of their own accent as "neutral" and everyone else's as "foreign". But to someone else, you're the foreign one.
quote:A Scottish accent has a very definite connotation to my American ears, which is definitely not ancient Greek.
If they all spoke with the same accent you have, would you still be complaining? Because I'd wager that if a Scot watched the movie as it is, they wouldn't notice the accents so much. While if they all spoke with your accent, the Scot would find their accents had certain connotations that were "definitely not ancient Greek". Any accent is going to have certain connotations to some people, but no movie maker can dictate who gets to watch his movie.
Personally, I think it would be ridiculous to make all the actors fake a Greek accent just because their characters are Hellenes. The characters aren't speaking English-with-a-Greek-accent. The characters are speaking Greek, and the dialogue has been translated into English. If we were talking about a movie about a Greek immigrant in New York City, and he spoke with a Scottish accent, yes, I'd be complaining. But in a movie like Alexander, where the dialogue is merely a representation of what is being said, then I don't think it matters so much.
Complaining that their accents were wrong because they sounded funny to your ears isn't very meaningful for a movie that was probably intended for rather a wider audience than that, and most of them will have accents ranging from slightly to drastically different from yours.
Of course, I say all this without having seen the movie. I'll see it eventually, and if the accents are inconsistent within the movie, such as having brothers speak with completely different accents, or having high-born educated characters talking like Cockney chimney sweeps (for example), then you'll see my complaints joining yours here. But just the simple fact of having several Greeks who all died before English existed being played by Scottish actors (as opposed to, what, dead Greek actors?) doesn't, by itself, bother me in the slightest.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I absolutely positively deSPISE Colin Farrel and I'm GLAD to hear that this movie is as TERRIBLE as I was HOPING it would be.
*ahem* Anyway...
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
dar Narnia...why so much anger in your heart? You know... fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate... yadda, yadda, yadda ;-)
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
I know. I don't have such strong feelings about most things, but for some reason, I am completely enraged that Colin Farrel is famous and touted as 'talent.' But that's just me. Posted by ArCHeR (Member # 6616) on :
On Thermopylae. I'm not sure how they can make it into a movie without making up stuff and turning the betrayal into a half-hour subplot about how the Spartan king raped the guy's wife or something...
Posted by prolixshore (Member # 4496) on :
This movie was awful. I was bored out of my mind and wishing for it to end the whole time. I have never looked forward to seeing a character die as I did Alexander. Waste of time and money.
--ApostleRadio
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: And what are "American" ears? To someone from rural Mississippi, a Yankee definitely has an accent. (And vice versa, obviously.) Everyone tends to think of their own accent as "neutral" and everyone else's as "foreign". But to someone else, you're the foreign one.
Not rue, Most linguists consider Midwest American accents to be neutral. They use them to gauge all others.
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
Just checked and it came in 6th at the box office over the weekend Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Supposedly the neutral accent is here in the Midwest, Iowa parts of Missouri and Illinois, right were by coincidence global warming is not supposed to have any effect. Weird Huh!
I am going tonight! I know it will suck but I watched the History Channel version for a couple of weeks and it got me curious and as was said, gotta support the genera
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
I heard the Macedonians had Irish and Scottish accents while the Greeks had English accents.
I liked this idea, as it shows the distinction between the "civilised" Greeks and the Macedonians.
There is no such thing as a neutral accent.
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
JH- I saw the same special on the history channel-- very interesting. But I think I'll wait until it comes out on DVD in a few weeks. I feel kinda sorry for Colin Farrell though Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
That whole Macedonians being uncivilized thing is largely Greek propaganda. Uncivilized people don't hire Socrates as a tutor. True, their civilization was relatively young (at least at a high level), but it was not primitive.
Primitive people don't conquer most of the known world and establish great cities and centers of learning as they go.
Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
If it is true that one region's characters all had one accent, and another all had a different accent, that's not so bad. Though it still seems silly to transpose England/Scotland for Greece/Macedonia.
If it's seemingly random, that's poor directorial decision-making. As a director, you want to limit distractions that would pull the audience out of the diagesis of the film - such as a car parked in the background of a historical epic, for instance. If the accents have no meaning and only serve to make the audience think "that's a strange accent for that character" - well, then the audience is thinking about the actor, not the character.
As for "neutral" accents, some are definitely more neutral than others. Even in Scotland, the Glaswegian and Aberdeen accents are a lot thicker than those from Edinburgh, for instance.
For "neutral" accents, I'd look to nationally broadcast television news programs - newscasters are voice trained to have more mass appeal and less regional accent to their voices. So, listenening to MSNBC or FOX News or CBS or something will give you a fair approximation of a neutral set of american accents, whereas listening to the BBC would give you a fair approsimation of neutral english accents.
While there is no truly "neutral" accent, there are those accents that are less extreme than others. Extreme accents can be placed, i.e. "you're from boston", whereas less extreme accents can't be so easily. If anything, you can rule out where people are *not* from... by ruling out the extremes, you can begin to pinpoint where someone's from.
That latter type of accent is closer to "neutral".
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I didn't notice the Scots/Macedonian, English/Greeks point in the movie since, as near as I can recall, the only non-Macedonian Greek in the movie was Alexander's mother, who had some kind of funky pretend accent going on. That is, I'm sure the backstory for some of teh character's included them being from 'somewhere else', but none of them had Antigone's weird accent.
Posted by Wussy Actor (Member # 5937) on :
My problem with Oliver Stone is his habit of taking a really good idea for a movie about a really interesting historical event, wrapping it around a brick, and repeatedly slamming you in the head with it for about three hours. JFK in particular could have been an excellent film. Too bad somebody else didn't make it.
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
quote: Uncivilized people don't hire Socrates as a tutor.
It was Aristotle. Socrates was long dead. And my understanding is that Philip was desperate to be seen as being as cultured/civilised as the Greeks. (Might be a little shaky there.)
Posted by Ryan Hart (Member # 5513) on :
They overplayed the homosexuality. Now I know that at some point in his life Alexander was probably gay, but it wasn't a theme of his life like it was a motif in the movie.
Overall fairly historically accurate a few misplaced anecdotes. Acting was weak and so was the script.
Don't waste your money, wait for my version. Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think it may merely be that the histories tend to underplay it. While I haven't seen the movie, Alexander's lover is considered to have been his constant companion on campaign. That would certainly seem to qualify as a major theme.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Not rue, Most linguists consider Midwest American accents to be neutral. They use them to gauge all others.
Not most linguistis experts, but most American Linguistic experts.
The Midwest has a lot of the bradcast schools that all the majors (ABC<NBC<CBS, etc.) use to teach their new anchorpeople how to speak on-air...particularily MI, OH, and IN. That is not to say that these areas don't have accents...they do. But they ae a close to the middle of the range as can be found, since no true neutral accent actually exists.
When I moved to MA from MI in 1988 I was afraid that everyone in this state would speak with some sort of Bostonian accent...perhaps not as pronounced as what I heard in movies and on TV, but something similar at least. I was afraid that I would stick out loke a sore thumb because of my "accent. It turns out that most of MA sounds amazingly like the Midwest. I college, most of the locals made a lot more fun of the Bostonians than they did of me, at least because of their accents.
In movies, anything that interferes with the suspention of disbelief is not a good thing. Thanks for the review.
Kwea
Posted by jebus202 (Member # 2524) on :
quote:They overplayed the homosexuality. Now I know that at some point in his life Alexander was probably gay, but it wasn't a theme of his life like it was a motif in the movie.
Well I haven't seen the movie, but I do believe Alexander was fully homosexual.
Hephaestion is often said to have been Alexander's lover. It's even said after Hephaestion's death, Alexander toyed with the idea of having his head carved out in a mountain side a la Mount Rushmore. (Their relationship did span a long time, by the way, and wasn't a mere fling at one point of his life.)
He did indeed marry a woman, Roxanne, and it was claimed to be love at first sight, but this was purely another political maneouver by Alexander to appeal to the nations he was conquering.
Somehow I doubt the movie would have included the homosexual theme if they could get away without it, it's a bit too risque.
[ November 30, 2004, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: jebus202 ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
AT that time, there was no such thing as being completely one thing or another. Claiming that he was serves various political purposes, but it isn't supported. People just didn't classify themselves that way.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
That's not exactly true. There are references in greek literature to people who preferred sexual contact with only one sex. Those who did were considered a bit odd, but it did happen. There were no terms specifically to refer to such people, but that greeks didn't classify sexuality in the person with a particular word isn't surprising as they tended to classify the act, or the attitude in a particular act, of a person.
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
*chortles*
I read an article about angry Greeks all up in arms over Alexander being bisexual in the movie. Be like having JFK be on a basketball team. They say. That is maybe the silliest thing I have ever heard in my whole life.
[ December 01, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
Frankly Alexander was boring. Little happened and if Stone's movie was all I knew of Alexander I would have thought that he was a man who could only get his men to do things because he was their sovereign. Alexander's men spent more time arguing with him than fighting for him. The impression I get from actual history is that his men also followed him because of the force of his will. What actually happened in the movie made his speeches about conquerering death to make absolutely no sense. Also I was bothered by their being only two battle scenes both which made little sense. I think Alexander's life would have made much more sense as a series of battles. They also seemed to leave out important parts. We never actually saw Alexander's trip to the oracle in Egypt for one thing. I also don't like how everyone is going to think Alexander was poisoned when we don't have any clue what the disease was. The movie was basically a big disappointment for me.
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
Okay, wait a minute. These Greek lawyers are upset because Alexander is portrayed as being bisexual . . . in a time and place when all men were pretty much expected to be bisexual? Looks like they need to review the history of their own people.
Luckily, they haven't a leg to stand on, legally. As a certain professional writer has pointed out, no one has legal standing to sue on behalf of a dead person. Plus, if what you're saying is actually true, then it isn't libel anyway. And since Alexander actually was bisexual, and last time anyone checked was still dead, this suit will go exactly nowhere.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
This movie was that biggest gay parade I have ever seen, I wanted to throw up about halfway through it. Why they would emphasize these aspects of the life of this man is totally beyond reason, it can only be a simple multi-sexual, multi-racial left wing propaganda flick, Stone just joined Spike Lee and Micheal Moore on the list of directors I will never watch again. I had to go to strip joint afterwords just to cleanse myself. There were times I wanted to pluck out my own eyes and wash them in bleach to stop the horror.
This movie could have been good, their is sufficient historical record to build a great story, one of a hero and dreamer and warrior. Instead we see gays on parade wearing mascara and giving erotic lap dances. I cannot stress my disappointment in the critics and this list for not lam-blasting this piece of nauseating garbage. It can only be fear of offending Gay minority that kept people mum.
YUCK!!
BC
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Just how many gay parades have you been to, BC? Sorry, couldn't resist.
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I wasn't planning on seeing the movie, but after reading this thread I will avoid it for sure.
Cashew and jexx, thanks for the info on Gates of Fire, sounds like an interesting novel. I'm going to look it up.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
BC, stop making conservatives look bad. Seriously, its gone too far. You're becoming the Michael Moore of Republicans only less popular. Besides, if you didn't know Oliver Stone was a heavily biased director who makes politically charged movies before you saw Alexander, then you're pretty ignorant. Let's look at the movies Oliver Stone has participated in:
Salvador- Liberal look at American intervention in Latin America
Platoon- Anti-Vietnam movie
Born on the Fourth of July- Anti-war movie
JFK- Movie that alleges coverup of JFK's assasination
Nixon- Liberal, conspiratorial look at the Nixon presidency
The Day Reagan was Shot- Liberal look at how the Reagan administration dealt with the shooting
Persona non Grata- Pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli "Documentary"
Commandante- "I love Fidel Part I"
Looking for Fidel- "I love Fidel Part II"
[ December 05, 2004, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: newfoundlogic ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Platoon was the only good movie he ever did, but when I saw the movie (Alexander) my friends and I left halfway through and snuck into the Incredibles again. It was just the wrong place for the issues advocated, I do not see that BC is wrong at all, though I do not know why he watched the whole thing.
You go to a movie expecting to see Ben Hur or Spartacus and instead you get soft core gay porn. I won't say it was the worst movie disappointment I have ever had, but it is right after the Blair Witch Project on my list.
I think it is tied with the Hollywood 'Gay's in the military idea,' trying to get people to think that if this guy was gay and conquered the world why don't we let gays in the Marines. I have heard of scholarly papers that say Jesus was gay as well, and the Founding Fathers and on and on. I have read a lot about Alexander and this aspect of his life is nothing I consider significant, and I doubt if he did either.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
The only saving grace is that this week the ROTK extended DVD comes out and does it right!
(Oliver stone will later show that Gandalf and Suraman are gay, all elves are bi and that Gimili and Legolas became star crossed lovers kept apart by their societies until they could leave Middle Earth.)
BC
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
I don't understand why everyone objects so much to the idea of Alexander the Great being bisexual. There is no reason why he shouldn't have had sexual relations with Hephaestion. (Which isn't to say that he DID, but he perfectly well might have, and there wouldn't have been a stigma attached.) He went to a particular dancing exhibition because his favorite eunuch Bagoas was in it, and he hugged and kissed him at the end of it.
*doesn't remember very much from her Alexander the Great project*
Jen
P.S. Just realized this might be taken as a hint that I like Oliver Stone, and I really don't. I've never liked any of his movies, and I didn't see Alexander. Just putting my two cents in.
[ December 05, 2004, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Fyfe ]
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
One would think keeping his male companion (whom he had a sexual relationship with) with him throughout most of his life would constitute evidence that his attraction to men (or at least one man in particular) was an important part of his life, but I guess not. I suppose then we can't assume that someone's spouse is an important part of his or her life, because after all, one only spends a whole lot of time with and sleeps with him or her.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
It was never my contention that it is a big deal, it is Stone who made it the central feature of the movie, ridiculous, it is my understanding that Greeks considered this sort of obsession with pleasure to be distasteful, preferring to aim at enlightenment. It is like characterizing Einstein by showing a series of arguments with his first wife.
BC
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Ironically, BC, (and I'm not advocating gratuitous anything, just commenting) some of my female friends were amused by Alexander solely because it portrayed the homosexual side of his life, which was of course common in that era.
(But you are right about the greek distaste with Passion and its domination over Reason which was considered to be a divine characteristic. Temptation and desire are common themes in Greek myth and the hero does not always clue into his reasonable side immediately. However, when he does it is a sign of his strength.)
[ December 05, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
So this Great man is now just amusing. You make my case.
BC
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I'm not advocating this gratuitousness, I'm saying there are is a market for this kind of thing. I have not seen Alexander. However, presenting Alexander as merely a strong, straight warrior would also be a mistake.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
NFL, I find it really odd that you believe 'Platoon' is 'anti-Vietnam'. I have a good idea why you believe it is, but I'd be curious to hear it from you rather than guess, NFL.
For what it's worth, Stone is a veteran of Vietnam and also used a Marine Captain who was in Vietnam, during the shooting of Platoon, to help him recapture what it was like in Vietnam for some soldiers.
The analysis of 'Alexander' as some kind of gay propaganda was inevitable. I knew after seeing it that some people would bring that from the movie, but, again, I don't understand how that is possible. Never once in the movie is Alexander's homosexuality glorified for the sake of propaganda, that I could see--unless you feel like Alexander being gay was propaganda in and of itself, and as others have noted, Alexander was, in fact, 'gay' and lived during a time and in a culture when being so was not the stigma that it is today.
Even had the film been perfect, I don't see anyone coming away from the film wanting to be like Alexander and be gay. He wasn't glorified in the movie and neither was his sexuality.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
My reply was more at Jar Head.
As to the Athenians, the number of debaucherous parties they threw to talk about philosophy at belies anything you may have read about eschewing pleasure.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
No one said they had to follow their ideals. They had them, nevertheless.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
HE was Alexander the Great!!! Emphasizing the Homosexual aspect of his life cannot help but be glorifying homosexuality. The movie turned the conquest of the world into a gay love story about a boy running away from his mother with his boyfriend. Were was the cleaving of Gordian Knot? Where were the cities he built, the schools and libraries and such?
It was a careful cross section of the life to make a point, well the point is as wrong as the portrayal, the greatest army in the history of the world is ours and it does not run on guy guy action. (Maybe the Navy but not the Army or Marines)
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I believe Aristotle actually says as much early in the movie, no? I assumed this is why Alexander and whatsisname never actually 'did it'.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
quote: NFL, I find it really odd that you believe 'Platoon' is 'anti-Vietnam'. I have a good idea why you believe it is, but I'd be curious to hear it from you rather than guess, NFL.
Because of how he depicts the war.
quote: For what it's worth, Stone is a veteran of Vietnam and also used a Marine Captain who was in Vietnam, during the shooting of Platoon, to help him recapture what it was like in Vietnam for some soldiers.
I know that, but that doesn't mean anything. By that same implied logic Kurt Vonnegut didn't write anti-war books because he served in World War II. Hiring an expert doesn't mean that the expert isn't biased nor does it affect the bias of the director.
I didn't really see Alexander as gay propoganda, I just saw it as boring out of my mind.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Storm Saxon: You mean the Passion vs Reason thing?
[ December 05, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
JH, to glorify something, you have to make it seem 'great' and worthy of emulating. I didn't see Stone do this any more than he glorified Alexander. I mean, you say it yourself, and you echo one of my reasons for disliking the movie, and I've also heard the same kind of complaint from reviewers, too, but watching that movie, it sure is mystifying what 'great' qualities Alexander had or what made him great. As I said in my initial post, he spends a lot of time being distraught.
I am right with you that the film needed to spend more time showing his accomplishments and less time on stupid Freudian bs.
Posted by Jhai (Member # 5633) on :
I'd just like to point out that the theme of homosexuality runs through most of ancient Greek life. If you even skim Plato’s dialogues you’ll find evidence that it was an accepted part of the culture.
In the Theaetetus:
quote:Theaetetus: Well, Socrates... I ought to tell you about a remarkable boy I have met here... And if he were beautiful, I should be extremely nervous of speaking of him with enthusiasm, for fear I might be suspected of being in love with him. (143 e)
In the Protagoras:
quote:Friend (to Socrates): It's pretty obvious that you've been hunting the ripe and ready Alcibades... And how is he disposed towards you? Socrates: Pretty well, I think... You're right of course, I was just with him. (309a-b)
Any one who studies ancient philosophy (a course I'm currently taking) or has studied the classics (I have two friends who are classics majors) learns pretty quickly that the ancient Greeks didn't feel the same way towards love and sex as we today.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
From what I have read and studied, Jhai is right.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Teshi,
yes.
NFL,
I don't know what to tell you. Other vet reviewers that I've read have said it's the most realistic potrayal of Vietnam they've seen. I know depicting soldiers as being cowardly or less than chivalrous is a sore point with some people. (Note that I didn't see 'We were soldiers then', and haven't read any reviews of that.)
I guess I could always ask my dad, who was infantry in Vietnam, but I don't think I want to bring up bad memories for him.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Were was the cleaving of Gordian Knot?
They didn't show the Gordian Knot? Did they show his questions to the Oracle?
I'm glad I didn't see this movie; I'd have felt cheated.
Dagonee
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Great people never embody true "greatness", whatever that may be. Heros are often in the right place at the right time.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You don't conquer the world by luck. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Nah, but it helps. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
p.s. Rosario Dawson is freaking hot. Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
Gay soft porn? I'm so there.
Posted by newfoundlogic (Member # 3907) on :
No Dag, they didn't show either of those important events. I only went because I needed something to do and there weren't any better movies out.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
They did show some big boobs (a good implant job) and you get to see Colin Ferelle's (sp?) junk. If you pay attention there is some outer labia as well! The previews were not only all the best parts, they were better then the movie. Just download the trailers and you will have everything worthwhile about the movie.
BC
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Maybe I left too soon if I missed boobs! However nothing can make up for all that gay kissing. I wish my theater had kept Team America a bit longer I was too late trying to see it, now I have to wait for the DVD!
Posted by Fyfe (Member # 937) on :
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But that's another thread.
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I know. I don't have such strong feelings about most things, but for some reason, I am completely enraged that Colin Farrel is famous and touted as 'talent.' But that's just me. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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