This is topic Islam guide (because there aren't enough active religion related threads) in forum Books, Films, Food and Culture at Hatrack River Forum.
I just got this from a friend of mine who's Muslim. We have had some talks last (school) year about God, Quran, how does it mix with science, etc. She had some very good arguments about lots of things, but I wasn't ready to post something like that on Hatrack... Now I wish I at least wrote them down. Anyway, this seems like an interesting link, I'm going to try to read as much as I can about it in the next weeks. It's actually the first time I'm doing this - reading something this religious related... I wonder if anyone has some good website that could provide additional information about/against Islam? Also: are there any websites like this one about other religions? And I'll also try to check the older threads on this topic... I'm in for a treat, right? Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
How do you mean "against" Islam?
I'd rank it with any other religion in my belief/disbelief factor - Islam has no greater claim to validity in my eyes than Judaism, Christianity, Wicca, Shintoism, Hinduism or Buddhism.
-Trevor
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
This site provides a Christian perspective on Islam (I haven't gone through it extensively, though, I just stumbled across it while looking for something else).
I've been reading the Penguin edition of the Koran lately. It is certainly an interesting read...
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
'Against' Islam was just a short way of saying: 'giving other interpretations then the Islamic accepted ones'.
Thanks, dh, I'll look into it.
I'm not about to convert due to several 'beliefs' I hold that are not compatible with Islam, but I think it's interesting to see why so many people are believers.
And I also thought we've had lots of insights on different religions here at Hatrack but not on Islam and this was too good an opportunity to pass.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Why do people believe anything? Because they want to or they feel like they experienced something to convert them or it is a belief they were raised with and have never found the need to question.
That said, do we actually have any practicing Muslims on this board?
-Trevor
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
You know that Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews and the Christians, right?
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
babager, if that question was directed to me, yes, I do know that.
quote: Why do people believe anything?
Good question. Some would put it a little bit differently though: 'Why do so many people believe in God? How can they all be wrong?' I believe they can all be wrong, as I think we can delude ourselves about basicaly anything, but I'm still interested to see where they take there beliefs from.
As for Muslims on this board, I don't know, but there's always a first, right?! Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Which makes the whole concept of religious wars to be sadly amusing.
-Trevor
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
TMedina: Oh, yeah...
That's strange, the only worshipping available on Hatrack is this: Proof that Hatrack is evil?
Ok, I'll stop derailing my own thread now...
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
Islam originates with Ishmael. The son of Hagar and Abraham.
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
dh.
Without even going to your link, I just have to chime in about the whole idea of ANY religion creating an "educational resource" about another religion. Frankly, it's a bad idea. Taking anything from such a resource as fact without corroboration from a source that DOES accept the belief as true is really really a bad idea.
I come to this belief, frankly, through reading OSC. I have no personal experience with the people in the majority religion maligning my own for reasons that come from gross misinterpretation of the truth, but I've seen it directed at others. Anytime you go to church and there is a dramatic sketch involving a muslim, and how he has a secret hole in his heart because he believes the wrong thing, all you are doing is reinforcing false expectations that non-christians will all happily cast away all their misbeliefs and don WWJD bracelets if only someone tells them how wrong they are. Scholarly approaches are no better, as most people who "study" Christianity on an academic level will have their own set of distortions.
Basically, I try to avoid anything like this, just because I know how easy it would be to point to a few scriptures in the Bible and find that Christians are a bunch of Puritanical, bloodthirsty, polytheistic, sheep. Whether you believe that is true or not, it would be a misrepresentation of the entire work. The book of Leviticus is in the Bible. People writing about "Christianity from a Hindu perspective" are free to pick verses from it to represent Christianity. They aren't likely to include theological intricacies that explain why we no longer believe the words printed in our own holy book.
Approaching any belief system from the perspective of "how is this wrong" will only lead to frustration and conflict.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
IdemosthenesI, my problem with your approach is that it sees religions as something "true", even if they give different interpretations to certain things. Many people, either religious or not, are concerned with the amount of truth that can be found in a religion or another; why not try to find out?
And how is Taking anything from such a resource as fact without corroboration from a source that DOES accept the belief as true any better than the opposite approach?! That's too close to "believe and don't question" for me to like it...
Posted by Taalcon (Member # 839) on :
I wholeheartedly agree with IdemosthenesI.
Here's a fabulous edition of the Qur'an filled with copious Surrah introductions and in-text translation and interpretational commentary - written by a practicing Muslim. If you want to know what someone believes, go to someone who believes it.
If you're going to study any religious text in a quest for truth, read (and experience) the texts and testimonies of those within the Faith. If you want to find out about a conflicting Faith, study their works.
Cross-Religion books RARELY do anything but throw bile.
Although there ARE some good 'let's explore the common truths we DO share' books out there, they are few and far between.
[ November 28, 2004, 09:50 PM: Message edited by: Taalcon ]
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Of course, just like any other faith, you have people who believe A rather than B and people who believe B rather than A.
The meaning of Jihad, for example, is a matter of some speculation.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
A very interesting philosophy, which originated in Islam, is Sufism. I think many will find Sufi Islam entirely unobjectionable (beyond not believing it themselves), and indeed, quite surprising.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
As a word, Jihad is best translated as striving. There is no dispute about that. As to the forms it is acceptable the striving take, that there are disputes about.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Sorry, I should have specified "the forms and manner in which one goes about Jihad."
-Trevor
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Taalcon:
quote: I wholeheartedly agree with IdemosthenesI.
Yeah, but why? What about the question in the second paragraph of my last post?
Trevor: I agree, and that's why I want to have different points of view on religions. In my opinion, there's a comparable number of religions and believers, since many people's set of beliefs differ in a slight way from the "mainstream" beliefs. So when someone says: "Read this and that, because this man/woman is a true believer.", I actually see: "Read this man's/woman's interpretation of the religion he/she says he/she believes in."
fugu, I have 0 knowledge about Sufism, I'll try to correct that! Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I've recently joined a religous discussion group on campus that is largely made up of practicing Muslims. It's been really interesting learning about Islam. In a lot of ways it sounds a lot older, more poetic, and more mature than Christianity. However, the more I learn about it the more I notice the many similarities between it and Christianity.
One particularly telling moment was when we had a Jewish speaker talking about Judaism. A conservative Christian and one of the Muslim men banded together, both completely confused by the lack of eternal punishment in the afterlife. It was incomprehensible to them.
At our next meeting I'll ask for some websites that the Muslims in the group think are good.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Thanks, blacwolve!
And yeah, you just 'exposed' probably my biggest problem with some religions: the belief in eternal punishment. For me, this would be veeeeery ungodly... I loved what Roger Zelazny wrote in Lord of Light: when Yama, the God of Death talked to a monk about him being 'just', the monk answered "Who above 18 still prefers a fair God to a merciful one?!" (or something along these lines)
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I left Christianity over the belief in eternal punishment, so it's something I pay quite a bit of attention to when it crops up.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Oh, didn't know that... Might I ask if you are practicing any religion right now, or just looking?
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
In some senses it is older than Christianity. Christian tradition, while it draws heavily on Judaic tradition, is also the result of much modern thinking on a synthesis between Judaic tradition and Greek philosophy (among other things).
In contrast, Islam's foundations rest firmly on Arab and Persian culture. After all, in Islam God speaks Arabic. It of course takes many lessons from other peoples, but Islam can be seen in early mu-allaq's almost as much as it can be seen in stories of Muhammed or the Qu'ran, which cannot be said of Christianity and pre-Christian texts.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm not anything. I find religious interesting as an intellectual exercise, but not as a belief system.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Well then... I'll join the club! Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm married to a Muslim. Does that help at all? Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
Dunno... Does it help you?! (I hope it does... )
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
:notices how the page turns to green: Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
Islam is certainly younger than Christianity, but it is by no stretch of the imagination younger than Protestantism. Were you to attend a catholic mass in a traditional church, you would probably get the same sense of age and maturity.
As to why it's best to learn about beliefs from someone who believes them, rather than someone who would like to get those people to not believe them, it's mostly because the people who DO believe have a vested interest in representing their faith as accurately as possible, while the people who are teaching from the standpoint of an outsider looking in at best, or someone trying to undermine the faith at worst, have a vested interest in finding loopholes and contradictions.
Remember, I'm not advocating believing everything that you learn, but if it is your desire merely to learn what someone believes, and not find something to believe in yourself, it's imperative that you go straight to the source.
By the way, you are absolutely right about my approach looking at all religions as "true." The reason that's important is that the people who you are trying to learn about DO see it as absolutely true. They aren't interested in their religions for purely academic or poetic reasons. Their religions define their worldview. They interpret their experiences and the information they receive in light of their beliefs being true. This is something you don't get when you read books that talk about how the beliefs are wrong, or how the people need to be "saved" from their religions. From those books, you get the picture of a deluded individual waiting for the truth, not someone who lives with the knowledge and conviction (whether it be objectively true or not) that they are right, and that their God is with them.
Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
IdemosthenesI: I'm still pondering on that... I have to go home right now, but I'll try to take a closer look to what you said in a couple of days. (have a full day tomorrow...)
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Idemosthenesl: I've never been to an Islamic religious ceremony. All that I know comes from the little theology I've learned in the last few months. I know just as much Catholic theology as Islamic theology, though I wish I knew more about both.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
Demo, don't you think it might be a good idea for you to actually go and have a look at dh's link?
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
I have subsequently done so. Nothing there to change my mind.
Nevertheless, the reason I didn't before I posted is that I believe this pattern to be pretty much universal, and if there are exceptions I haven't seen them. Christians should not go to other Christians to find out what muslims beleive anymore than you would go to Alexandra Kerry to find out about Jenna Bush. They might not have any specific bone to pick with each other, but you still shoulfn't make the mistake of assuming they are unbiased.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
You know, I'd consider the ability and willingness to describe other religions accurately and fairly to be one of the main qualifications for trusting someone to describe their own religion fairly. Someone who can only talk in opposition to other people's beliefs may have belief and, more importantly, a need to believe, but they don't have faith. A person without true faith is neither a good resource nor someone who can be trusted to not distort their own religion towards the positive as much as they distort others to the negative. This inability to distinguish a need to believe from faith has ever been a major stumbling block to responsible religion.
For me, the fact that you can't trust most people to talk fairly about other religions, political ideologies, or the other side of the contentious cats or dogs debate means that you can't trust most people, not that you can only trust people when talking about the things they believe in. If they are willing to distort the facts about others' beliefs or put themselves up as knowledgable about things that they aren't, they are irresponsible. This doesn't go away when they are talking about hteir own beliefs. If anything, it gets worse.
However, this is not the universal condition that some people here seem to consider it. There are a significant minority of people out there who are secure and responsible. Find such people and you'll probably realize that these people are often a better resource on beliefs that they don't hold than many of the people who do believe them.
It does bug me that people look around, see most people are irresponsible, and are thus willing to give up on responsibility. It may be a rare gem, but it's worth prizing all the more because of that. What people seem to be settling for isn't the best that you can hope for, but, if you keep settling, it the best you'll ever be able to expect.
---
On another tack and not directed at anyone, I've found that religious knowledge comes in two complementary flavors. An intellectual understanding is a useful and often edifying thing but to really understand a religion, I think you have to live in that religion for a while. In my experience (and keep in mind I'm a quasi-Daoist), religions aren't primarily intellectual or conscious things. As such, they don't really yield themselves to people who aren't sincere praticioners. If you really want to understand Islam (or Christianity or Buddhism or whatver) by all means study up on it, but also trying living in it for a year or so. I think you'll find immersing yourself in it's culture, belief system, and mythological structure will give you a much greater understanding of it (even or perhaps especially because you can't put what you've learned into words) than taking it on from a distance.
[ November 29, 2004, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: I'd consider the ability and willingness to describe other religions accurately and fairly to be one of the main qualifications for trusting someone to describe their own religion fairly.
Squick, it's not that I disagree with your post, but there are a few things you don't cover.....people who are not trying to lie or misrepresent other religions but are still wrong in their characterizations of them, because of their views within their own faith.
I agree that if someone is saying that Mormons eat babies then obviously they don't care about the truth, or care enough to portray the good aspects of the Mormon religion.....
But what type of criticisms can a RC or a rabbi made of secret church teachings when they aren't in a position to know the teachings themselves.
Also everyone has their own unconscious bias, and that often comes out when discussing other religions.
I wouldn't go to Rush Limbaugh for an honest review of Clinton's Presidency, or to Kerry for a balanced view of W....
If you want to learn about a religion, ask someone who is in a position to know what they are speaking about. Don't accept everything they say at face value, but that is where you should start.
Anything else is going to a liquor store to buy dog food.
Kwea
Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
There is a liquor store near my house where you can actually buy dog food. Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
quote: You know that Muslims believe in the same God as the Jews and the Christians, right?
Some Christians and Jews might want to debate that statement...
Posted by babager (Member # 6700) on :
Well Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. So do Jews and Christians.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yes. But (to quote a conversation I had on this very topic last night) at least according to the beliefs of some Muslims (as evidenced by actions, speeches, and writings) God asks them to do things that are contrary to the nature of the God Judaism (I cannot speak for any other religion) believes in.
Therefore, how can it be described as the same God?
Posted by Jutsa Notha Name (Member # 4485) on :
quote:Taalcon: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wholeheartedly agree with IdemosthenesI.
Because that post dh gave consists of outright lies or convenient out of context misrepresentations made in order to intentionally paint Islam in a bad light. Instead of "we disagree here" they are saying "they disagree with us and we are right and they are evil" with their "answers," which provide no real answer at all. It is a site dedicated to feeding ammunition for those who have already made up their mind that different beliefs are inherently evil anyway. It is a kinder, gentler Jack Chick.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Squicky- I don't think it's right to live a year as another religion when I don't believe it. I can't force myself to believe Islam. I could pretend to convert and go to their religious ceremonies and participate in their rituals but it would always be a sham. I know I don't believe anything, so I don't know how I can believe this, but I believe rituals that have been in existance for thousands of years have a power all of their own, and I think it's desecration to participate in them unless you believe. I don't take communion, if I attended a Catholic church I wouldn't take Mass.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Arguably, every faith has self-professed members who distort the "true" teachings of the faith to their own ends.
Unless any of the Christians here want to claim David Koresh as one of the faithful? Perhaps Jim Jones?
Toss interpretation into the mix and it makes for a difficult discussion topic.
-Trevor
Posted by dh (Member # 6929) on :
The trouble with Islam is that it depends on Judaism and Christianity to exist, claiming to be a "continuation" and "confirmation" of previous revelations, while simultaneously rejecting the very basics of those two religions. So I don't find it in the least inappropriate to examine Islam from a Christian, or Jewish, perspective.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Really? I thought Islam was as much a stand-alone product as the other two.
Looks like I get to do some research later.
-Trevor
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
But of course you don't find a problem with looking at it from a christian perspective, as you are yourself a christian. However, your premise would not hold water with a practitioner of Islam any more than my examining Christianity as a perversion of Judaism would hold water with you. Religion is somewhat unique in that, rather than being convinced of a position you hold through logic and reason, you hold that belief despite the lack of proof and are actively encouraged to disregard logic. The very idea of faith is illogical, no matter how many times St. Anselm tries to use word games to "prove" god's existence. Of course, saying that faith is illogical sounds like an attack, but that really isn't my intention. what I'm actually trying to say is that religion exists outside of logic, and that isn't neccesarily a bad thing, but it's true.
That being said, it's very difficult to try to ascertain empirically whether a religion is true or not, because there is equal proof for all of them, none. So in researching what someone believes, the most effective approach is not "how are these person's beliefs different from mine," but "what are this person's beliefs and how do they fit into the greater framework of this person's life/culture/personality."
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
BTW, Mormonism does the same thing. Go back 2000 years and Christianity did the same thing, claiming to be an extension of Judaism. Just because a faith traces back to the same root doesn't make it a "splinter sect." It can, with time and momentum, become an independent religion as Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism have all done, despite their beginnings as "wild-eyed heretics" of other faiths.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Although, to be fair - trying to understand someone else's perspective of yourself can be very enlightening.
-Trevor
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I love my Muslim. Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I just got a long email from a muslim woman I know about why muslim women cover themselves. It's really long, so I'd like to make sure people are interested before I post it (and I'm waiting to get permission from her).
Just a head's up Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I thought the long and short of it was an issue of modesty and, from my jaded Westerner's perspective, a mysoginistic attempt to blame women for men being unable to control themselves and put the onus of such behaviors on the women themselves.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
There's more. It's quite a long email. I can send it to you if you'd like.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
[gratuitous defense of prejudiced assumptions by ignorant Westerner here]
I'll wait until you post it, if you can.
This may be a sad commentary on my outlook, but their cultural values are entirely their own perogative.
quote:The literal meaning of Islam is peace; surrender of one’s will i.e. losing oneself for the sake of God and surrendering one’s own pleasure for the pleasure of God. The message of Islam was revealed to the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings on him) 1, 400 years ago. It was revealed through angel Gabriel (on whom be peace) and was thus preserved in the Holy Quran. The Holy Quran carries a Divine guarantee of safeguard from interpolation and it claims that it combines the best features of the earlier scriptures.
The prime message of Islam is the Unity of God, that the Creator of the world is One and He alone is worthy of worship and that Muhammad (peace and blessings on him) is His Messenger and Servant. The follower of this belief is thus a Muslim - a Muslim’s other beliefs are: God’s angels, previously revealed Books of God, all the prophets, from Adam to Jesus (peace be on them both), the Day of Judgement and indeed the Decree of God. A Muslim has five main duties to perform, namely; bearing witness to the Unity of God and Muhammad (peace and blessings on him) as His Messenger, observing the prescribed prayer, payment of Zakat, keeping the fasts of Ramadhan and performing the pilgrimage to Mecca.
Islam believes that each person is born pure. The Holy Quran tells us that God has given human beings a choice between good and evil and to seek God’s pleasure through faith, prayer and charity. Islam believes that God created mankind in His image and by imbuing the attributes of God on a human level mankind can attain His nearness. Islam’s main message is to worship God and to treat all God’s creation with kindness and compassion. Rights of parents in old age, orphans and the needy are clearly stated. Women’s rights were safeguarded 1,400 years ago when the rest of the world was in total darkness about emancipation. Islamic teachings encompass every imaginable situation and its rules and principles are truly universal and have stood the test of time.
In Islam virtue does not connote forsaking the bounties of nature that are lawful. On the contrary one is encouraged to lead a healthy, active life with the qualities of kindness, chastity, honesty, mercy, courage patience and politeness. In short, Islam has a perfect and complete code for the guidance of individuals and communities alike. As the entire message of Islam is derived from the Holy Quran and indeed the Sunnah and Hadith (the traditions and practices of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings on him) it is immutable in the face of change in time and place. It may appear rigid to the casual eye, in actual fact it is most certainly an adaptable way of life regardless of human changes.
Islam teaches that the path to spiritual development is open to all. Any individual who searches the One Creator can seek nearness to God through sincere and earnest worship; it is central to establishing a relationship with the Almighty. This positive message for humanity fills hearts with hope and courage.
At present there are 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide and they form the majority in more than 50 countries of the world. Today Islam is the fastest growing faith in the world - its beautiful message is reaching millions in the far corner of the earth.
And here are the attributes of Allah:
quote: Allah is the proper name of God, however, we know Him generally through His attributes. These attributes describe how Allah manifests Himself to us. God's attributes are innumerable since human intellect cannot possibly comprehend every aspect of the Supreme Being. A Hadith of the Holy Prophet (peace be on him) makes mention of Ninety Nine names of Allah commonly known as al- Asmaul Husna, the Most Names. In the Holy Quran we read: "And to Allah alone belong all perfect attributes. So call Him by these. And leave alone those who deviate from the right way with respect to His Attributes." (7:181).
"Allah - there is no God but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting and All-Sustaining. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that will intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them; and they encompass nothing of His knowledge except what He pleases. His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth; and the care of them burdens Him not;and He is the High, the Great." (2:256)
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The similitude of His light is a lustrous niche, wherein is a lamp. The lamp is in a glass. The glass is as it were a glittering star. It is lit from blessed tree - an olive - neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil would well-nigh glow forth even though fire touched it not.Light upon light! Allah guides to His light whomsoever He will. And Allah sets forth parables to men, and Allah know all things full well.This light is now lit in houses with regard to which Allah has ordained that they be exalted and that His name be remembered in them, Therein is He glorified in the mornings and the evenings (24:36-37)
"He is Allah, and there is no God beside Him, the Knower of the unseen and the seen. He is Gracious, the Merciful.He is Allah, and there is no God beside Him, the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace, the Bestower of Security, the Protector, the Mighty, the Subduer, the Exalted. Holy is Allah far above that which they associate with Him.He is Allah, the Creator, the Maker, the Fashioner. His are the most Beautiful Names. All that is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Him, and He is the Mighty the Wise.(59: 23-25)
Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) narrated: The Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "Allah has ninety nine Names, one hundred less one; and who memorized them all by heart will enter Paradise." (Bukhari, The Book of Tauhid.
What I find most interesting is something we discussed in our meeting tonight, though it's only touched on here. It's the idea that Forgiver is the most important of Allah's name, and he loves forgiving us. There is a verse in the Qu'ran that says something like, 'if a nation were created that did not sin, I would destroy them and create a nation that sinned and repented.'
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Gee, that's sweet. What are we, little dolls for him to play with?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Ahh, the joys of a Supreme Being.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
If God is all powerful and is the determiner of morality, then yes, we are but little dolls for him to play with, whichever God you think he is.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Honestly, does he have to be all-powerful, or just more powerful than us?
Most five-year olds can play with ants like toys.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Would you ever say something like that in a thread about Mormonism? Because all Christian religions have beliefs that are somewhat similar to that. Or is it ok to be disrespectful of other people's religions just because they're not here to defend themselves?
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
To whom are you referring Blac?
I've said that and worse in the Christian and Mormon threads.
Granted, neither here nor there have I tried to openly antagonize anyone, nor insult them directly although my "Great Pumpkin" references did raise the ire of some readers.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
You think that isn't openly antagonizing?
If you thought that was wrong, and wanted to discuss it, that would be different. However, here you haven't bothered to actually learn anything, you've just picked up on things you thought you could mock, and did so.
Before you hear anything about headcoverings you've already decided it's mysoginistic. Here, you pick something that's a characteristic of most major religions and choose to trample on it.
I told my muslim friends to join in this discussion. I told them it wouldn't just be muslim bashing and that people would respect their religion and want to learn about it. Obviously I was wrong.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Or you're being amazingly thin-skinned and don't understand what bashing might actually entail.
I fully accept the muslims in question have reasons, both religious and cultural, for the attire.
When I noted my "gratuitous, knee-jerk Western reaction", I intended it mostly in pointed sarcasm because a lot of people do feel that way and frankly, I'm not sure I don't feel that way. I will, however, respect their right to dress and act in any manner they feel appropriate within certain constraints as noted by law.
Although I think I used the phrase "jaded Westerner's perspective."
If it's any consolation, my mocking is hardly limited to any particular religious faith as hinted at earlier - and "openly antagonistic" can be interpreted a number of ways. To what I can be, I don't think my behavior thus far has been particularly nasty.
Although instead of trampling, I could try for a nice two-step, maybe a little tap dance? I take requests, if you ask nicely.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
I think your response wasn't so bad. KoM's was much worse.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Heh, thanks Fugu.
I think.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Actually, I was thinking much more of the "respect their religion and want to learn from it" in relation to you.
And I think mocking any religion is despicable, religion is the most important thing in the world to many people, and I see no reason for anyone to mock that. If you don't agree with someone's religion or disagree with its tenets than avoid it, don't make clever comments whose sole purpose is to make yourself feel superior to the people who do believe it.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
Oooh, you're going to hate me then.
<snarky comment deleted>
Be prepared for a little poking - if your faith isn't strong enough to handle it, you should probably re-examine your faith.
Although you are more than welcome to warn posters in advance this is a "let's hold hands and embrace our differences" thread and not a "let's treat this religion differently from the consistent and open-minded skepticism that we should subject all thoughts, philosophies and general dogma to."
I have treated Islam no differently than I have Christianity, Judaism or any other faith. In that context, I offer you treatment as an equal. With the same opportunities to defend your thoughts and point of view as anyone else.
Whatever else Beverly might think of me, I respect the fact she believes in her Faith and while I disagree, I do so with a moderation of respect.
But understand this - I don't think God exists. And for some people, that's offensive and blasphemous.
Oh, darn.
If you want to have an open and honest discussion, be prepared for opposing points of view.
-Trevor
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
She's not islamic.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
I know - but considering she's decided to carry the standard for all the poor, misunderstood and downtrodden Muslims, I might as well use the generic "you" and "your."
And if I can't question or comment on some particular aspect of religion or faith without being accused of bashing, oh well.
-Trevor
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
Trevor- for the record, I was angry at KoM, too. And you did bear the brunt of it because you asked, I'm sorry about that. I reacted as strongly as I did subsequently because you stated that you mocked all religions equally, and I don't think any religion deserves to be mocked.
If at any point in this thread you had treated this thread with "the consistent and open-minded skepticism that we should subject all thoughts, philosophies and general dogma to." I would not be angry. You have not. You have not raised any points of discussion. You have stated once that, although you didn't know anything about a subject, you had a pretty good idea you didn't like it. And the second time you merely made a sarcastic comment. In my world that doesn't constitute an open-minded consistent discussion, although I concede it fits skeptical. However, I think the skepticism is only useful when in the context of a discussion.
I'm editing this way to much.
I really need to go to bed, and this is going to bug me all night unless I close it.
Trevor- I'm sorry, I reacted far more harshly than you deserved. The only defense I can offer is that this is an incredibly sensitive topic to me. I left my church largely because they were consistently mocking the Mormon faith. I'm sure any of my friends can verify that I jump to the rescue of any religion when it's being misrepresented. Even Christianity, even though I renounced the religion because I think many of their beliefs are immoral. I won't let someone mock them or spread false beliefs about them. I'm not sure why it's so important to me, but it's one of the issues that is sure to get me in a fury in seconds.
[ December 02, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: blacwolve ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
quote: By the way, IIRC Islam has modesty rules for men too. Men are supposed to wear clothing that is loose-fitting and does not reveal the shape of the genitals (tight-fitting jeans are out)
This is true.
I'm having some trouble getting the email posted, because apparently she is thinking about touching it up and publishing it. I can forward it to anyone who's interested, though.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
According to my husband, who is Muslim, modesty rules for men also include covering at least their chests and their lower body must be covered at least past the knees.
In other words, Muslim men have to be as covered as LDS men who have been to the temple.
No exceptions for swimming or athletics. But I'm not as sure if that's personal preference on his part, cultural in terms of this part of the world, or if it's religious. Can't ask him right now - he's off praying.
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
Kwea, I don't think you got my point, especially if you think I was suggesting looking to Rush Limbaugh about accurate information about "liberals". Where we seemingly differ is that you see to be suggesting that Rush could be trusted when talking about his own side, which is the specific idea that I was talking about. Nor do I think that using the cultish aspects of LDS is a good argument as the answers you'd get from a respectible non-LDS member ("I don't know.") wouldn't information-wise be substantively different from a respectible LDS member ("I can't tell you.")
If you want to talk about discordant belief structures and percetual norms (I don't like using bias here because although it's technically the right word, among a naive a naive audience such as here it carries definite negative connotations), we can do that, but that's a very different issue that what I was talking about, which is simply that people who are irresponsible are at least as likely to give bad information about things they are for as things that they are against.
Would you trust Rush's word on the Bush administration or Kerry's on the democratic party? If not, what is your objection again?
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
blacwolve, I wasn't advocating a specific course of action for anyone. I was just pointing out that a largely intellectual understanding of religion or in fact most belief and ritual structures is a very incomplete one and talking about a way to augment this understanding.
But while we're on the topic, I have a very different view of belief that you seem to. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I don't think it has to work that way. I regard belief as a great deal more plastic than you seem to. Certainly, when I've experienced other religions, I've never had to []force[/i] myself to believe as they did.
I wnat ot focus on a little bit of what you said, that the rituals have a power of their own that can be desecrated. I'd agree with this setiment (although I think ascribing it to rituals based on how long they've been around is wrong) and I think it brings up an interesting question. To be desecrated, something first needs to be sacred. Since you've been quite clear in saying that you don't believe in the literal truth behind these rituals, where does that sacredness come from?
For me, it comes in large part from the people themselves. There's a big division in the world in how we perceive people interacting with the world. In our culture, at least, it's much more common to see people as basically reactive to an objective reality. Another possible way to see things is that people primarily construct reality through acts of creativity (which is not to say that objective reality doesn't have a strong influence, but that the reality a person experiences comes largely from their creative interpretations of their experiences with this reality).
Meaning doesn't come from stimuli, but from the shape that we make out of these stimuli. Different people take very different things out of very simular situations. If you recognize the constant act of creativity that constitutes your mental life, if you realize that things appear the way they do to you in large part because you choose to see them that way, I think you find that belief is more often written in sand than in stone. In many cases where people say that they can't do/see/believe something, what they are really saying is that they won't, because they are unwilling to.
We all live by "as if"'s. If you understand this and you are willing to put out the effort, you can experience Islam or prety much any religion as a believer (albiet probably not a stringently orthodox one). There is meaning in these religions that transcend intellectual understanding. You can take part in this meaning if you choose to.
Or at least that's the way I see it. I've always had a fondness for heretics and my views here make me a heretic not just in the eyes of the three Levantine religions, but also in those of the whole complex of Western positivistic thought.
Posted by TMedina (Member # 6649) on :
It's all good Blacwolve - I should have approached the subject more cautiously than I did and I apologize for blundering into one of your personal sore points.
I have a couple of sore subjects myself, so the best apology I can make is I didn't intend to poke you with a stick and make you jump, even if that was the unintended result.
The history of Islam and Arab countries is one of enlightenment and tolerance - historically, Muslim countries were the most accepting of Jews and non-believers than any Christian nation of the time.
In Muslim countries, poetry and art flourished, as did sciences like medicine, astronomy, algebra and so much more.
Saladdin would weep to see the state of his people today.
At the very least, I don't think he would have destroyed two thousand year old statues of another faith in the name of his belief.
-Trevor
Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
I was reading Ellis and Harper's A Guide to Rational Living and I came across a statement that encapsulates a large part of what I was trying to drive at here:
quote:People often substitute their moral values and personal opinions for their descriptions and, accordingly, issue subjective judgements and appraisals when asked for a more objective account of events.
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