A few rather good friends of mine are Masons and I've been seriously thinking of asking to be allowed to join. My Great Uncle was one of the head Masons in Washington state and a Shriner and my Uncle Wally and father both wanted to become Masons, but my Uncle was blackballed because a young man he was in the demolays ( I'm sure I didn't spell that right) with wasn't a fan to say the least. I was simply curious what people on hatrack thought of the masons and all the things they've done for the public.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
They make really great jars.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I have no idea what they are. I've heard they have anti-Catholic tenets (not just tenets contrary to Catholic teaching, but some fairly typical anti-papacy stuff). But I have no idea how reliable such reports are.
Dagonee
Posted by Cashew (Member # 6023) on :
I know that fundamentalist Christians don't like them. It was one of the things a fundamentalist friend of mine had against Joseph Smith. I think because they're secret?
Posted by IdemosthenesI (Member # 862) on :
My favorite biblical conspiracy theory is that, as the Masons have been around basically since Man first crawled from the primordial soup, and since the word in the bible describing Joseph as a "carpenter" is more accurately translated "stonemason," he was actually IN the secret society. They, along with their newest inductee Jesus, created the greatest system of influencing the world anyone has ever seen, the Christian religion.
Of course, I don't buy it, but it's one of my favorites anyhow. Even better than the David+Jonathan illicit gay affair.
Posted by fugu13 (Member # 2859) on :
Of course, the vast evidence that the masons have only been around for a comparatively short while shouldn't allow one to reject such a beautiful theory .
Posted by Black Fox (Member # 1986) on :
::laughs:: from what I know the oldest lodge book is from 1592, which while old isn't that old.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I parked in the Mason's parking lot for a while when I worked for the State of Kansas. The people in the office were incredibly friendly when I'd go in once a month to pay them for the use of the space (there was no free parking around there at all--they weren't just being greedy or something). I usually got there at the same time as one of the Masons, and he and I would usually talk for a few minutes every morning. He gave me some promotional material for the organization and invited me to join, which surprised me, since I was under the impression that they absolutely never did that--I thought that you had to petition them before they'd discuss it with you. I thought about it for a few days but finally declined--I just has a weird feeling about it, and finally decided it wasn't for me. The guy was really gracious when I told him I didn't think it was right for me. Really, they couldn't have been nicer people.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
But now you're on the list. Posted by Miro (Member # 1178) on :
My Grandpa's a Mason. Don't know anything about them, though.
If you want Masonic conspiracy theories, read Dan Brown.
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
I've read one Dan Brown book, and haven't been able to make myself read a second one.
My great grandfather was a really high ranking Mason. I want to say 32nd level, but I could easily be pulling that number from an orfice from which numbers should not be pulled.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I always liked Dave Mason.
[ November 30, 2004, 09:22 PM: Message edited by: Bob_Scopatz ]
Posted by Dan_raven (Member # 3383) on :
I'm a Perry Mason man myself.
Read the Illuminati. That has all the secret mason secrets.
I do know that it costs bundles and bundle to be one of the guys driving the cute shriner cars and bikes in the parades.
And the worst insult you can give a professional clown, is to call him a Shriner Clown.
Well, maybe not the worst. The worst would be something implicating small furry rodents in his immediate ancestry and present romantic inclinations, but I digress.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Better yet, play Illuminati. Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
I remember the Shriners that marched in the Santa Claus parade every year in my home town. The leader of the parade was a Shriner who wore the fez and curly-toed booties, harem pants and a vest. He always did this little belly dance thing all the way through main street. Mom used to whistle at him, and she wasn't alone. I remember he had longish blond hair, a very good tan for November and a mesmerizingly mobile belly button.
It has only just occurred to me how truly strange a thing that is to have in front of a Santa Clause parade.
O_O
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Be nice folks...I am a Mason.
They are the single largest private charity in the world, including the Catholic Church, and they do it all with completely private funds....their charter won't allow them to accept government monies.
Any child can be treated at a Shriners Hospital completely free of charge, and they specialize in pediatric orthopedics...helping children regain the use of their limbs.
Dag, I have never seen or heard a Mason, at least in an official role, say anything derogatory about any religion....we are all free to believe what we want, as long as we acknowledge God. Not any specific God, but some sort of a higher power.
There are Lodges all over the world that use different religions as the center of their Lodges, but most of the ones in the US are based in Christianity, and a lot of the members are Catholic.
As a matter of fact one of the only things a Mason can do to be immediately censured in a Lodge is to be disrespectful of another Masons belief system. It is probably one of the most respectful organizations I have ever been a part of, and I am glad I decided to look into it.
JenniK is a member of the Board of Directors for the local Rainbow Girls chapter, something she has been a part of (either as a girl in it of as an adviser) for 17 years now. The Rainbow Girls are a service organization sponsored by Eastern Star, the female counterparts to the Masons.
The corresponding young mans group is the DeMolay Boys.
The Shriners are all Masons, at least third degree, but not all Masons go on to join the Shrine. Shrine clowns are great...some are better than professional clowns...but they all have day jobs, and do it not for pay but to make sick children feel good, if only for a day.
When is the last time you did that? I don't think I will become a Shrine clown, but one of the best times I have had with the Masons is their yearly Shriners Circus.
I think all the stories about Masons are funny, in a sad sort of way. A lot of religious groups have been very anti-Masonic because they won't tell the churches what goes on in Lodge, but these same churches have their own secrets that they don't reveal to outsiders.
As far as recruiting, the restriction against mentioning the Masons is not in effect any more....as a matter of fact it was never a hard and fast rule, or at least it wasn't intended to be one. They don't recruit much, it is all done person to person without any sort of official recruitment drives or public messages. You have to be intersted in it, and you have to find 3 sponsors who wil vouch for you in addithion to at least one Mason.
Even if you didn't want to join you should be glad to know that they asked you....it meant that they thought you were cool, and that you would be a god addition to their community.
If anyone has any questions I would be glad to answer them, providing it isn't prohibited....and the only things that I can't talk about are the rituals, and their underlying symbolisms.
Also, I haven't been doing it that long, so if there is a question I don't know the answer to I will tell you that rather than make a mistake and tell you the wrong thing.
Kwea
[ November 30, 2004, 10:22 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
quote:we are all free to believe what we want, as long as we acknowledge God. Not any specific God, but some sort of a higher power.
Well, there go my chances. Unless you want to count Physics as a "higher power", I guess I'm disqualified from consideration.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Posted by Verily the Younger (Member # 6705) on :
I can't say I really see where that was necessary. . . .
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
It's one of the secret rituals, silly.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
A few years ago, I was doing consulting work at a factory when one of the foremen swung by to compliment me on some of the network architecture. He concluded with "Hey, Tom, what do you know about the Freemasons?"
"A bit," I replied.
"Have you ever thought about joining up?" he asked, "Because, y'know, the Masons are always looking for people who know computers nowadays."
And while I moved shortly thereafter and never really had to take the offer seriously, I've always been curious about what exactly the Freemasons need with computer operators. Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
They want to take over the world!! Mwahahahahaha!
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
Just to clarify a little of what Kwea said. I have been an Advisory Board member for my local Assembly of the International Order of the Rainbow for Girls ( based on the Christian religion and named because it uses the colors of the rainbow to symbolize lessons i.e., service to school community and church, and based on God's promise to never again destroy the world after he put Noah in the big boat...remember the big flood and then the pretty rainbow that came out? It was created by a Master Mason who was an ordained minister;Reverend W. Mark Sexon) I have been involved with them since 1987, and have worked with the Masons for years. My paternal grandfather, my father, and now my cousin (as well as Kwea) are all Masons. My father is also Shriner.. in the Hadji unit...you know... the cute little cars, he used to drive a "jeepster", but now due tio his health is inactive. The Shriners are all 33 Degree Masons and they have,I believe at this time 19 orthopedic hospotals for children and 3 burns institutes. You want the best and most up to date in care in either of these specialties...go to Shriners. There is never a fee for a child to be helped.. and many children are flown in from other coutries for help..arranged free of charge through the airlines for child and parents. I have worked to raise money to build a handicapped accessible playground for these children at the Springfield,MA hospital as ewll as putting new tv's in every child's room there, all as a Rainbow Girl. I guess you could say that it's a way of lief for me. It's always been there. I respect what these men do every day. If I were a man, I would join, as it is I am a member of the Order of the Eastern Star. There are other "sister organizations" such as the Ordewr of the Amaranth and the White Shrine (lady Shriners!), and I for one am proud to be a part of what they do. Thanks for letting me get on my soap box. (George Washington was a Mason and held the highest office in Virginia...as well as many other famous names. ) Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Tom, it is a good business decision, because they always like to do business with other Masons when possible...
They run hospitals, Tom, and every Lodge has a computer or two in it...
So there IS a few things they could use you to do, I think...
It really feels cool helping kids like this, it helps me feel like I am ginving back a little for being this lucky.
Kwea
[ November 30, 2004, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
A lot of cadets (at the United States Military Academy, the Army's 'college') are Masons.
The way one of them explained it to me (he was a new member) is that it is a sort of fraternal organization (in the best sense of the word).
He joined, in part, because the Masons espoused the ideals he believed in (becoming persons of character and helping others).
He graduated last year, I really miss talking to him about this sort of thing. He was/is a great guy.
Posted by Coccinelle (Member # 5832) on :
Both my grandfathers were Masons. They were wonderful men.
That's all I know.
[ November 30, 2004, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Coccinelle ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Jexx, that is it to a T, but I really like the fact that they do all sorts of charity work, and pay for it out of their pockets, usually with their fundraisers.
Kwea
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
JenniK have you heard of Job's Daughters? I was under the impression it was affiliated with the Masons too, similar to the Rainbow Girls thing.
AJ
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Hm, the masons, they've always fascinated me... Yeah.
Mainly because they housed/house (Not sure if they still do) the Illuminati. Yeah, I guess my question is are they still in existence? (The Illuminati.)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That was rumors, as far as I can tell.
Also, the Illuminati were scholars that disagreed with the Church, not world controllers...
It's sad, really, the things people make up.
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
JenniK- I'm really interested in the Rainbow Girls. Do you think you could email me with some more information? It sounds alot like what I've been looking for for a long time.
blacwolve@gmail.com
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
JenniK has gone to bed, but I can tell her to check it out tomorrow, and I know she would LOVE to talk to you and help you out, even if you don't end up doing it.
I know if focuses on service, and it helps develop speaking skills, among others.
Kwea
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
Oh, I know about the Illuminati quite a bit... I know they aren't really out to take over the world. It was more of a binding of church and religion. I had just heard that the Masons took the Illuminati in after the church threw them out.
(Even if it was a rumor, it sounded reasonable, the Illuminati were beyond brilliant scholars who could help the Masons in their wealth.)
I just was wondering if the Illuminati were still around, guess I'll need to keep searching.
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
My roommate was a member of Rainbow for years, until she got too old. And moved to school. What she tells me, from her dad, is that "Masons take good men and make them better."
*shrug* I grew up knowing that Masons Were Bad, but that came from total ignorance. My knowledge isn't much greater now, but I've lost the prejudice. Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
Kwea and JenniK, that was really interesting information about the Masons and related groups. I never knew before that the Shriners were a branch of the Masons - I thought it was a separate, similar organization. (I've always loved seeing the Shriners in parades. )
My only contact with anything to do with the Masons is that they let a Jewish synagogue I have gone to, in the town I used to live in, use their building for Sabbath prayers, until the synagogue was able to build their own building. Now, a Jewish women's group I have participated in uses the same Masons' Lodge for their prayer services.
Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
So... how did Masonry start? Or is that information lost in the mists of unrecorded history?
(Where is a Pastwatch machine when you need one?)
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
There are Masonic Lodges based on the Torah, Ela, and there are a few Jewish men in the regular Lodges here too....you have to believe in God, but not in a specific God.
Letting the groups use their building is the type of thing I like about them...they were probably mostly Christian men, but as masons they hold the Bible as their sacred book, both Old and New, so they are a lot more inclusive than other service groups.
For instance, the Kinghts of Columbas only accept you if you are RC....they do good work, but not as much as the Masonic Lodges do.
Also, the Lodges don't accumulate wealth, per say, although most of the Masons are fairly sucessful men in their own rights, and some of the most famous men in our history were Masons....Most Presidents were in the beginning of our history of the US.
There have always been rumors about the Masons, such as their tendency to do business with each other. The real rule about that is that we are a fraternal orginization and we help out each other as we can, without harming others or ourselves. I sell suits, but I wouldn't sell another Mason a suit at an illegal discount, something that could get me in trouble....but if I had any spare coupons around, or if it was going to be on a better sale in a few days, I would mention it/ give them the coupon.
How does anyone "know" about an orginization so secrect that it's existance has never been actually proven? Let alone know that they are still in control today? Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
Kwea, lots of close-knit communities have been accused of having special business with one another, including but not limited to Mormons and Jews.
People are paranoid. Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
I think the Masons are cool. We just had my play in one of their buildings, btw, and they were very nice. One of the main reasons that make the Masons so cool is because they are thousands of years old. I'd like to join, but I think you have to be religious or a christian to join.
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
What I know about them, is what is supposedly their origional goal. Galileo mainly is who I look at, someone who was supposedly in the Illuminati, yet a devote Catholic until his death. He was a scientist out for science, not disproving God. Well, I guess I'll just continue searching. The Masons are pretty good, especially with how charitable they appear to be.
With their rules on God, what about people like me who are undecided if there is a god or not?
Posted by Boris (Member # 6935) on :
I had a companion on my mission who was a Mason (you know, before the mission). He was an interesting fellow. I've always kinda wondered what the LDS official stance on the masons was (Mostly because I think I'd like to join). I've heard a lot of rumors about Temple/Mason conflicts...*shrug*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Well, as long as you think there may be a higher power there is hope...
You don't have to belong to any religious group at all, but theye are a quasi-religious group, so you do have to believe in something other than yourself.
I like it, it isn't really preachy on a one to one basis, although there are religious elements in their rituals and ceremonies. I have never see a more tolerant group of people, to be honest.
Either way, good luck.
Also, while some of the teachings go far back into antequity, the formal settings of Masons are not that old. How old are the teachings? Thousands of years old, back into the realm of the Old Testement, but no one really knows what is left of the original materials. Some of the teachings are ancient though, even if the modern incarnation of them isn't.
Kwea
[ December 01, 2004, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
What do the Masons do? Do you meet regularly? Is it primarily a charitable organization? Is it more like the Rotary Club or Kiwanis Club or the Elks Lodge (organizations about which I understand very little)?
Posted by Grisha (Member # 6871) on :
quote: I have no idea what they are. I've heard they have anti-Catholic tenets (not just tenets contrary to Catholic teaching, but some fairly typical anti-papacy stuff). But I have no idea how reliable such reports are.
My father and one of my brothers are Masons, and so is another close friend of the family, they are all three Catholic. And the are full Master Masons, 33rd degree i beleive.
quote: I'd like to join, but I think you have to be religious or a christian to join.
You actually just need a current Mason to sponsor you as a potential member.
[ December 01, 2004, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: Grisha ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
I was a Job's Daughter. I thought it was cool although some of the girls were a little too debutante-ish for my taste. (I didn't get into the power struggles for the offices; I was second janitor and liked it that way. I just had fun doing the charity things and singing.) So, anyway. Many of my relatives have been Masons. I do find it a bit annoying they ask you what church you attend when you apply to join, but hey, it's their perogative, I suppose. In the area where I was, they pretty much let anyone in-- we had Jewish, LDS, and Catholic Jobies along with the usual Protestant crowd-- as long as you met the other requirements. I don't think I'll encourage my daughter to join when she gets older, because it might take away from the church activities, but I had nothing like that going on and it was cool for me. Anyway, my opinion of Masons is therefore a bit biased, I suppose, but I think there's nothing wrong with a group that men can join to make contacts and friends and do good, as long as they don't discriminate like I've heard of them doing in some areas.
Posted by Rohan (Member # 5141) on :
I am a Mason. Well, actually, that is just my last name. But you have no idea how much confusion it's caused in my life (much more so on my mission in Chile, but even among English speakig folk). So, it's nice to read this thread and hear about the good things the Mason (or Freemason) Organization does.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
I passed by a building that someone told me was the chapter meeting building for the local Masons... or possibly Elks... I'm not positive, but one thing I found creepy is that the building had no windows. I wondered if that was just to save money (windows cost a lot more than walls when building a building) or for secrecy or what. That seemed really strange. Do they building windowless buildings for their meetings? Or is that someone else like the Elks? Or was this building I saw just some weird anomaly or something?
Otherwise the only thing I've heard about them is in the story "The Man Who Would be King" how the people of Kafiristan were about to kill Danny and Peachy but stopped because they saw Masonic symbols about his person (which in the story apparently were supposed to have come down from antiquity). And was there some tie in to Alexander the Great? Anyway, they decided because of his Masonic symbols that he should not be killed and was worthy of great respect instead, and they ended up making him king. That was a great story. The movie with Michael Caine and Sean Connery was fantastic! Did anyone else see that? Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
I'm impressed with the way the Masons have kept the secret about the Founding Fathers' treasure for so long.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Until you just gave it away! Shhhhh!
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:that you would be a god addition to their community.
Forget the Masons. You're a god, apparently.
I want you on my team. Look, I've got gummi worms. . .
Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
quote:If anyone has any questions I would be glad to answer them, providing it isn't prohibited....and the only things that I can't talk about are the rituals, and their underlying symbolisms.
But those are all the good questions?
We better not find out you're telling all the secret Hatrack rituals to your Mason buddies.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I don't know much about the Freemasons except that at the funerals I have been to, for people that were Masons, they have some strange rituals they go through for their deceased Mason brother. Different, but not offensive or anything. Just curious.
Also -- Did anyone else besides me notice that in the movie League of Extraordinary Gentlemen in the library scene where they group all meets each other -- the room is filled with the Masonic symbol? What was supposed to be the meaning of that?
Farmgirl
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
They probably thought it looked cool.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Not only that, but a lot of powerful people throughout history were Masons, so the symbols are usually associated with Libraries and wealthy surroundings. Also, they have meanings that fit in well with the movies mysterious atmosphere, and the order is pretty old...if I remember correctly the meeting was in England, right?
As far as what Masons do, each Lodge has it's own schedual....some meet once a month, some twice. Also all Masons are "brothers" so once you achieve your 3rd Degree you are considers a full Mason and can attend any meeting anywhere in the world, providing you can prove (sometimes by examination) that you are a Mason in good standing. If you move to a new place it is great, you ca just walk into any local Masonic hall and meet new people.
Masons support the Shrine and their hospitals, and they do various fund raisers....spaghetti dinners, concessions stands at local events, raffles..whatever they can do to raise money for their causes. They support a ton of charitable events and groups, and they run their Lodge which usually consists of a Hall that can be rented for functions providing you know a Mason...and sometimes even if you don't..
They do a lot of parades, and a lot of fund raising for local people in need.....a Mason always has the right to ask for help from the Lodge, but the Lodge has no set obligation to grant any such request. They do a lot of scholarships for the kids of Masons too, usually based on grades AND community service.
Also the Masons are the sponsors of both the DeMolay Boys and the Rainbow Girls, and each chapter must have Masons on the Advisory Board as well as members of Eastern Star (the female equlivelent of Masons).
They do a lot of ritual work, which I can't talk about much...suffice it to say that it most closely resembles a Church Service, but is basically non-denominational.
It is similar to the Elks Clubs in the range of activities they offer. Some lodges have their own picnic grounds where they hold event in the summer months, but locally we use the field at the nearby Elks....a lot of the Elks are Masons too, so the two groups are fairly well-knit (around here at least) and help each other out quite a bit.
JenniK will post here tonight on the Rainbow Girls if anyone else is interested.
Kwea
[ December 01, 2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Or was this building I saw just some weird anomaly or something?
Yes it was. We have windows in our Lodge...
zgator: the only reason those are the "good questions" are because we won't talk about them to non-masons... Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
When the DaVinci Code was big, I read a book called Holy Blood, Holy Grail. I have to say I'm a bit stunned to know that you are one of the ones responsible for hiding and protecting Christ's bloodline. Do you aspire to become a member of the Priori Scion?
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
From Dagonee:
quote: Better yet, play Illuminati.
Which version though? The boardgame or the collectable card game?
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
That was the best ficton attempting to pass itself off as non-ficton since Whitley Stribers Communion....
[ December 01, 2004, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I've only played the Steve Jackson card game.
It's great fun.
Posted by eslaine (Member # 5433) on :
I liked the old "boardgame" version of it better, but the CCG was incredibly cheap, and wound up buying it as well. However, the random rare card thing makes most CCG's unbalanced. The richest guy usually wins.
That's why I liked the original. Everyone had a same chance to control the destiny of the world, in the beginning of the game, anyway....
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
My father-in-law is a Mason. Good guy, for what it's worth.
quote:They are the single largest private charity in the world, including the Catholic Church,
How do you/they quantify the "size" of a charity? I'd be interested in any documentation you could provide to this effect.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:ARTIST: Ray Stevens TITLE: Shriner's Convention
Yeah, they come down Main Street, drums a flailing Sirens a-wailin', what a roar Bands are a-playin' and flags are a-wavin' And the vanguard's a motorcycle corps Clowns are a-clownin' through the crowd and pinchin' Every pretty girl who dares to smile It's a glorious mess, everybody wears a fez The parade stretches out for miles {Refrain} It's a typical American phenomenon Where all the members have a fine old time It's the forty-third annual convention Of the Grand Mystic Royal Order Of the Nobles of the Ali Baba Temple of the Shrine Meanwhile back at the Motel Bubba Operator, give me room three-twenty-one, please. Hello? Noble Lumpkin? This here's the 'Lustr'ous Potentate. I said it's the 'Lustr'ous Potentate. The Illustr'ous... Coy? Dad-blame it, this here's Bubba. Coy, why ain't you at the parade? What? Well, how'd you get that big Harley up there in your room? What? I cain't hear ya, Coy, quit revvin' it up, boy. Turn it off. I just want you to know one thing. You have embarr'ssed us all, the whole Hahira delegation. Now, I'll see you at the banquet, son, and you be there, Coy, you hear me? Black tie, seb'n o'clock. Be there, Coy. And Coy, don't answer the phone Uddn'uddn.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
I have that whole CD collection.... Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
Can a Member of the LDS faith become a Mason? I was looking at temple signs from the internet and Mason signs from a book my Great Grand Dad had, and they look to be the same.
I talked to a Mormon friend about that, and he said that Joseph Smith was a Mason and many anti-Mormons accuse him of stealing the Massonic Signs. He expounded on Solomon or something and I lost interest. He did say it was the Masons who killed Joseph Smith.
Reading this post brought back memories, and I am wondering how the Masons feels about the LDS church.
[ December 01, 2004, 04:42 PM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
I might actually be interested, but the whole secrecy thing bothers me. Always has, and always will.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Waiiiit a second, Shriners are MASONS???
O_O I never knew.
But all I know about Shriners is that there was a Shriner convention directly after my Sci-fi fantasy convention one year. I remember standing in the elevator with my friends in full costume and Shriners staaaring at us. Icky.
Posted by JaimeBenlevy (Member # 6222) on :
Wait...isn't it supposed to be secret whether you're in the Masons? I don't know, that's just something I heard...
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
No, you can speak about it, of course, and even ask people if they would like to be involved, you just aren't suppose to be real vocal about initiations. also there are some aspects of Masonic life you aren't suppose to reveal to non-Masons.
LDS are welcome, at least from the standpoint of the Masons...I have no idea how the LDS faith views them although there have been quite a bit of repression from every major religion aginst the Masons....religions don't like non-denominational religious orginizations that don't acknowledge their authority....
Icky, there is one chapter that makes over 1 million a day on rents, interest, and revenues...that is every day of the year. every single cent is donated to the Childrens Hospitals, wehre all care is free of charge.
There are hundrededs of thousands of Lodges all over the world, and they are all non-profit.
Soup kitchens, charitable donations, free worldwide care at hospitals and burn centers.....
I'd say we do far more than our share of good works....but you will never see any documentation on most of it, because each Lodge does it's own fundraising....although the Masons do keep a close accounting they don't allow anyone else to view it.
Why should they? It is all raised by Masons, to be distributed however they want. They have given money to the cities around here to open pools and keep parks open, sometimes anomously because people don't like to hear about the good works the Masons do.
They would rather go see National Treasure...
Kwea
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I'm not doubting that they do good work, kwea. Honestly, though you seem to expect a negative reaction, my only information about the Masons is positive, and it comes from my father-in-law. I simply wonder how the charitable actions of the Masons can be directly compared to those of a body such as the Catholic Church. You made a comment on how they donated more, and I wanted to know if that claim could be substantiated. *shrug*
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It can't. Not to a non-Mason.
I have recieved a lot of negitive reactions to it in some places, but really I don't here at Hatrack, and positivly not by you. Sorry if I came off that way.
I like it, although it isn't a perfect orginization, that is for sure. There are some people who seem to think it is all about politics, but one of the best things about being a Mason is that you can go you whole life and not do one thing political in the orginization if that isn't your thing. As long as your dues are paid (and it really isn't that much) then you remain in good standing.
If you want to hold office there are plenty of them, but if all you want to do is help others and have some fun that is great too!
Guess what I favor out of the two...
Kwea
[ December 02, 2004, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
A little more info about Masonry and it's related fraternal organizations. To answer 1 question I saw, yes I have heard of Job's Daughters and also a group called Triangle, but these groups are not prevalent along most of the eastern US.(the exception being Triangle in New York State.) The Masons are also very involved with the Chips program....fingerprinting children, taking pictures,and documenting info so that police have ready info available if a child is kidnapped, as well as informing children and parents how to "stay safe" (or as safe as possible intoday's world).
Why Masonry has so many rumors spread about it.... in the late 1800's in Great Britain most men of affluence in England, Ireland and Scotland were members of Masonic Lodges. They had a vast amount of power because they could discuss current events and politics before, during, and after their meetings. Say 15 members of one lodge are all in Parliament. They decide to vote a certain way..they travel to another Lodge where 15 more members are in Parliament..... they can actually change the laws of the country! The Government (as in the "Crown") decided they didn't like that and sent in Scotland Yard to investigate....and plant speculation about a "cult-like organization" among other things. So rumors began to spread... then more people started coming to the US and some members of the government of New York City didn't like the fact that things were no longer going their way...Masons had gotten together and decided to vote a certain way..thus improving their own wealth and that of their friends...and so things continued much as they did in Britain.
As for myself I served as Worthy Advisor, the highest officer in a local Rainbow Assembly, 11 times...more than anyone else in the state. I was elected every time and also served as acting Worthy Advisor for 3 other girls who could not fulfill the duties of that office. I have been a State officer (1991-1992, 1992-1993) and served as the Grand (state) Representative to the state of Alaska and to Japan. I am a member of the Grand Cross of Color, a signal honor for service "above and beyond", and served as the Master of Ceremonies for the Grand Cross of Color Degree at our annual state meeting in 1993. I have been to the biennial international meeting "Supreme Assembly" (which was amazing!) in Buffalo, New York, and met people from all over the world. (My counterpart from Alaska back in 1993 served as their highest officer Grand Worthy Advisor of Alaska 1999-2000 and was in Buffalo so I got to see her for the first time since I had visited there in June 1993! We are still good friends and write and email often!) Rainbow teaches young girls to be young women. It teaches not only the importance of community service, but also how to run a business meeting (Robert's Rules anyone?), self confidence, responsibility, and public speaking. It also helps develop teamwork, networking skills (Heather, a friend from another Assembly in this area and was Grand Worthy Advisor in Massachusetts 1999-2000, was the soloist at my wedding...she's also one of my oldest friends in the state.), and the ability to plan and implement projects. Each Worthy Advisor is required to plan 3 projects during her term of office; Fund Raising, Fun, and service. The members of the Assembly help to make the projects a success. I also served on our state's Rainbow Camp staff as waterfront counselor 1993, and 1994, then as assistant cook 1995-1997. I made the wedding cake of the archery counselor (Sharon strangely enough also served int eh state's highest office GWA (Grand Worthy Advisor), her cake was white chocolate cheesecake with gum paste roses and leaves. It took 15 hours to bake, and I'll NEVER do it again!!! She was at my wedding with her husband Jay...Past State Master Councilor of DeMolay. I have friends in high places! I have friends all over the US and other countries from this organization, and I can't imagine how dull my life would be without having been a part of this group. It quite literally changed my life.
I have had the misfortune of loosing 2 of my Rainbow campers... one to suicide at the age of 18 and one who was murdered on a trip to check out a college in Washington State. Those were 2 of the hardest losses I have had to deal with. Another camp counselor died a 4 years ago this January because of cancer...her mom and her sisters are still close friends since Amy and I served as Grand Officers (state officers) together. I was the soloist for a reception in honor of her mom and suster when they were Grand Officers in Eastern Star. I will never forget any of the sisters that I have lost. I have happy memories of smiling faces and fun times that always make me smile.
I have had so many opportunities through these organizations that I never would have had otherwise, and I have so many sisters and "Mom's that I'll bever be able to count them all! Yes, there are politics involved in every organization, but the girls themselves and the advisers who are there for the girls make it all worth while.
For more actual information about the International Order of the Rainbow for Girls check out this site: [URL=http://www.iorg.org/geninfo.htm] URL]
[ December 02, 2004, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: JenniK ]
Posted by JenniK (Member # 3939) on :
Oh yeah, almost forgot... yes Ben Franklin was a Master Mason.. among many other of our founding fathers....Washington laid the chief cornerstone of the Capitol , Jefferson...all the way down to Ford and so on were/are Masons. But Ben, he used the Masonic Cipher (the way they can figure out what the words in the Masonic ritual book actually say) to come up with his own secret codes. He knew that he had a Torrey spy in his household and so he wrote many letters and notes in codes so that the spy would not be able to read them and give away important info to the Brits!
Although only Masons are supposedly able to read the cipher, and many older Masons say that women could never figure out what it meant...My own grandmother got fed up with one of my grandfather's lodge brothers one day when he said that she didn't have to leave the room while they discussed it, it's not like she could ever read it...she took his ritual book (all in code) and read it from beginning to end to prove how stupid a comment that was! Of course her dad had been a Mason too..and all of her 4 brothers were..and she and her sisters were all in Eastern Star. My mom is a 25 plus year member, and I have been a member of my Mother's Chapter for 11 years now. I guess you could say we've kept it in the family.
Kwea's uncle Jimmy is a Past District Deputy grand Master in Pennsylvania (Kwea gets mad when I say Pennsyltucky!)
...and Yes every Shriner is 33rd Degree Mason. The Ancient Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine (A.O.N.Y.M.S.) is not a branch of the Masons...it's kind of an extension. Not every Mason is a Shriner, but all Shriners are Masons. there are other extensions such as the Knight's Templar, the Scottish Rite... and on and on.
Many old school Catholic priests in this area forbid their parishioners from joining the Masonic Lodge or it's fraternal partners because they say it is a "demon worshiping cult"...yet the same priests say "Of course you can be a Shriner! They are wonderful people and good men!" I always laugh when I hear that!!! Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I'm nineteen, does that mean I would join the Rainbow Girls? I mean, I know the site says through 20, but I'm going to be 20 in 8 months, so I'm not sure how that works?
Posted by Occasional (Member # 5860) on :
lem, I am not sure why you are interested in LDS things so much, but I wanted to make a few comments about your question.
From what I know of Masons today, Mormons joing a lodge is a non-issue. Chances are that most Masons don't even know the history of the two groups -- although many Mormons do because of the accusations you mentioned.
About one hundered years ago and more, however, there was great tention between the two -- but not for the same reason as the conspiracy theorists. The Masons didn't like the Mormons because, as you said, they believed Joseph Smith and the Mormons stole their secrets and made their own version. For years it was very hard for a Mormon to join a lodge because of the open hostility. The Mormons, on the other hand, were very enthusiastic Masons in the early years, although with a few exceptions. As the tentions became more pronounced, Mormons generally became cool to the Masons if they thought of them at all.
Mysteriously, as there hasn't been any study on the matter, the tention evolved into apathy from both sides. There are a few Mormons who are Masons and very proud of that fact (from how I have heard them talk about it). Masons, on the other hand, simply don't mention any feelings other than directly personal. I think this is because modern Masons are far less worried about the secretive nature of the organization and focus much more on the socializing.
Finally, there are rumors that Masons had a hand in murdering Joseph Smith Jr., but it is merely specuation. Part of this is the so-called last words he made that are supposed to have been some kind of Masonic call for help. It is assumed that he called out when recognizing possible members of the Mason community. No help came and so some believe this shows some Masons were directly involved with the mob. This is not just a Mormon speculation. Personally, I am not so sure it was a Masonic call for help as it sounds equally like a religious outburst of helplessness.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
blacwolve, Rainbow Girls is for girls before Job's Daughters, I think. At least, that's how it was in my area. You'd be a Jobie until you were 20 unless you are married. There's an organization after Job's Daughters for women, but I forget what it's called...
[ December 02, 2004, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Eastern Star. I just looked it up.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
Sort of...according to JenniK you can't join Eastern Star unless you have a relative who is a Mason, or were a Rainbow Girl for at least 3 years and left them while in good standing with them.
Most of the girls we know go straight from Rainbow to Eastern Star.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote: The Masons are also very involved with the Chips program....fingerprinting children
I read fingerPAINTING children, and thought, 'Oh. Interesting art project. Dirty old men. . .'
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Kwea, that's a requirement for Job's Daughters, too. That's why people in my area went from Rainbow Girls to Jobies, I guess. I guess I was just assuming that she was related to a Mason. Oops.
But it's not like the relationship has to be close; my great-uncle was a Mason, and that was enough to get me in.
[ December 03, 2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
my grandpa was and my uncle is. I'm not sure what level they are/were. I just emailed my uncle asking him.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
If either of them is a Master Mason in good standing, you'd be in. You do need to know where, though.
[ December 03, 2004, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: ketchupqueen ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I live on the opposite corner (kind of) from a Masonic Temple, though I can't for the life of me tell if it's still operating.
Hobbes Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
I don't know what a Master Mason is, the Masons came and did something at my grandfather's funeral, if that means anything. Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Then he should count. If they came to his funeral, I think that means he was in good standing (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Also, do ask your uncle, he should know.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I don't know what a Master Mason is, the Masons came and did something at my grandfather's funeral, if that means anything."
I read this and immediately imagined them bricking him in.
Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
quote: in the late 1800's in Great Britain most men of affluence in England, Ireland and Scotland were members of Masonic Lodges.
Oh - okay. That statement right there explains that scene in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
My grandfather was a Mason before he joined the Church. As far as I know, he stopped being involved after that, but I don't really know the details on it at all. My dad has just mentioned it once or twice. We had a Masonic temple downtown in the podunk town I grew up in.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
It doesn't have to be a close relation, even, so you should be OK then.
A Master mason is any Mason who has passed his 3rd Degree; if any ritual work was done at his funeral then he was at least a Master Mason adn was in good standing.
Posted by Wendybird (Member # 84) on :
Recently my friend's little boy needed an operation that would literally save his life. He had a tumor as a baby on his spine and after removing it his spine didn't have the strength to hold him up and was curving so badly his body was folding in on itself crushing his organs. The insurance denied coverage because it was an experimental surgery to install steel rods to hold his spine up. She approached the Shriners who told her that she had to sign a statement saying that her little boy could receive blood transfusions even though their religious beliefs forbid them from receiving someone else's blood. When she said she could not sign that statement they denied her treatment. Thankfully enough of us made a stink that her insurance company caved and covered it or we would have attended his funeral instead of rejoicing in his finally being able to walk and move around like a normal 2 yr old. Anyway, that was my only experience with the Shriners and it bothered me that they would insist that to receive treatment the family turn their backs on a deeply held religious belief.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
See the secrecy has always bugged me too - why should it be such a big deal?
quote: A lot of religious groups have been very anti-Masonic because they won't tell the churches what goes on in Lodge, but these same churches have their own secrets that they don't reveal to outsiders
There are no rituals or sacraments of my faith that outsiders cannot witness, or learn about. I know of no part of Christian beliefs that can't be discussed with others, and in fact we're encouraged to discuss them. So I don't understand where that statement comes from.
Personally I have no hard and fast opinion about the masons. I'm more confused than anything, I'm not a Christian who thinks they worship the devil or any such nonsense. I think if your goal is to be charitable and do good things, then why all the ritualistic components? Can't you be a good organization that does good things while at the same time being open about what and who you are?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Kwea,JenniK thanks for all the info on masons, I learned a lot.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Wendybird, that sounds like a liability issue to me-- they wouldn't give me an epidural while I was in labor unless I signed that, either (although it's not a problem for me since I don't have those beliefs).
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Belle, the secrecy is a little troubling to me, but not too much. I think people and organizations are entitled to their secrets as long as they are not criminal organizations.
quote: Freemasons are a fraternal organization dating back hundreds of years. The world’s largest "secret" society – these men are the fraternal descendants of the Knights Templar. It is a society bonded by a series of secrets, rituals, and charitable works (for example, the Shriners Hospitals). As described by the Masons themselves, freemasonry is "a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols. The mind of freemasonry is its ritual, its symbolism, its morality, its character building. What is its soul? It is that which is hidden behind its symbols and its ritual teachings; its inner meanings and its aspirations, its touch with that part of man which is immortal."
from a long rant on the number five-- http://www.sulis.net/five.htm ,bolds mine. Symbolism and hidden meanings appear to be crucial to Masonry, so secrecy is an integral part of that. Also, their rituals are designed to enlighten new members, and the secrecy of the rituals helps in the drama and symbolism. That's my opinion anyway.
Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :
quote:Recently my friend's little boy needed an operation that would literally save his life. He had a tumor as a baby on his spine and after removing it his spine didn't have the strength to hold him up and was curving so badly his body was folding in on itself crushing his organs. The insurance denied coverage because it was an experimental surgery to install steel rods to hold his spine up.
Was it the child's age that made them call it "experimental"? Diane has had steel rods in her spine for about 30 years. But she did have it done as a young adult rather than as a child - she was through growing. Just curious.
The issue of blood transfusions with children too young to give consent is a tricky one. From their (the Shriners') perspective, they might have felt they were endangering the child without that option. Not saying they were right - just that it's a real ethical swamp.
[ December 04, 2004, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: sndrake ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:There are no rituals or sacraments of my faith that outsiders cannot witness, or learn about. I know of no part of Christian beliefs that can't be discussed with others, and in fact we're encouraged to discuss them. So I don't understand where that statement comes from.
Some churchs certainly do though, mine for instance ( ) but I see what you're getting at.
quote:Personally I have no hard and fast opinion about the masons. I'm more confused than anything, I'm not a Christian who thinks they worship the devil or any such nonsense. I think if your goal is to be charitable and do good things, then why all the ritualistic components? Can't you be a good organization that does good things while at the same time being open about what and who you are?
Well on the other side of the coin, Belle, you belong to a chariatable organization (the Church), why can't you get rid of all of this preaching and Jesus stuff? See waht I'm saying? A large compnent may be service but even if it's the main component, there's no reason why that has to be all that they do.
Hobbes Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Researching Masons and the occult in general on the internet is fun and frustrating. There are Masons, anti-Masons, Christians and Satanists, people preaching tolerance and hate. It's all very confusing. Here's a pro-Masonry website, http://www.masonicinfo.com/primer.htm, and here's a page on anti-Masons: http://www.masonicinfo.com/fraud.htm Scroll down to where it says "Combating Jewish Racism." Is that not the freakiest font you have ever seen on "Jewish Racism?" It looks like it's dripping blood. It comes from an infamous racist anti-Semite, anti-Mason, anti-etc website that my previous link quotes from.
If you really want a wild ride, just type in "Masons" and "satan" to any search engine You'll find some seriously nutty webpages, trust me.
edit to add: In my opinion as a non-Mason, they are not associated with Satan or Satanists. That is an old charge leveled against them which dates back centuries, and which probably has more to do with church envy of Masonic power and influence than anything else.
[ December 04, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
To illustrate my point about wacky web pages from that search, here's one that claims Masons, the Queen of England and Nazis are involved in a sinister plot involving Denver International Airport:
quote: The Queen of England has reportedly been buying up property in Colorado under a proxy. There is a lot of "secret society" symbology at the airport, an AWFUL lot in fact The symbolism apparent in the layout of the new Denver airport, some feel, says that it may be a control center for world control Specifically, those involved in some very unusual government projects in the past, have remarked that the Denver area is where the establishment of the Western sector of the New World Order will be in the United States The LUFTWAFFE has long had an EXTENSIVE base in New Mexico complete with towns where all signs are in GERMAN
That would explain a lot about the Denver airport, though.
[ December 04, 2004, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
As someone who lived in Colorado durring the three eon construction period, I can tell you that if a conspiracy theory that has existed before didn't get applied to DIA then it wasn't a consipracy theory worth making fun of.
Hobbes Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
quote: Can't you be a good organization that does good things while at the same time being open about what and who you are?
Belle, have you ever seen what the Church holds in it's vaults? Do you know what is in there? Quite a bit, and I am not even going to a wacko site to prove it. The Church has admitted to not revealing all the prophecies from Fatima, for instance, but that doesn't make them a bad group or devil worshipers does it? Have you ever seen priests ordained? Do you know all the prayers to do an exorcism?
Please don't tell me the Church is completely open with it's parishioners, I was raised RC. There are tons of things that are secret in the Church, and things in their archives that no one not ordained will even see....and even most ordained priests won't ever see them.
Lets approach this from the other angle for a second.....just because your group does charitable work for the community does your group relinquish all rights to privacy? Does everyone has a right to know where you spend all your monies and what you do in the privacy of your own Lodge?
Also, when Christians were being prosecuted and everyone in the Roman Empire thought they were a cult and distrusted them, were Christians open and inviting then? Not too likely....
In this thread, filled with fairly intelligent people in a very modern age, how many people have mentioned dangerous secret rites and devil worship?
If anyone thinks that religions are the only groups that people discriminate against they are crazy.
One last thing....the Shriners run private hospitals, so they have to be VERY careful about the operations they do...I am sure that wavier was required by their insurance company, and they can't violate their policy or the whole hospital would be shut down. I am sure they would have tried to avoid a transfusion if at all possible, but they have regulations in place for a reason.
They had no obligation to operate at all, even though the child needed help. I am glad that the insurance caved in and all is well....but there wasn't anything they could do, unless they were willing to risk the whole hospital to help them.
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