Hatrack River Forum: Please Define Conservative and Liberal

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Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

When you think of a conservative, what do you think of? Ideologywise, issuewise, etc..

When you think of a liberal, what do you think of? The same as above.

I'm not asking for stereotypes here, I want what you seriously think each is. I'm just wondering if people are thinking of the same thing when they say liberal or conservative.

[ December 03, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :

quote:
LIBERAL: 2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL

quote:
CONSERVATIVE: TRADITIONAL b : marked by moderation or caution <a conservative estimate> c : marked by or relating to traditional norms of taste, elegance, style, or manners

Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :

The traditional--and not necessarily applicable--definition of liberal, as I understand it, is someone who believes people should be given ultimate choice in their own affairs. The Liberal movement happened before the industrial revolution, where self-determinism, self-actualization, and social darwinism were widely held beliefs. Hence the etymological connection between liberal and libertarian.

As I understand it, the traditional definition of conservative is someone who's relatively happy with the status quo, but would like a few more progressive things in government rolled back.

In modern America, those terms don't apply very well. Liberals tend to be progressives, and conservatives tend to be liberals. At least in a very general sense.

...

There needs to be a more-slanty italics to indicate more emphasis, so I can use it in the above sentance. [Razz]

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

I'm asking about modern america. I know Enlightenment and early 1800's Europe definitions of them. And I need more than just progressive. Becuase then you get the question: what the hell is a progressive?

I'm looking for in terms of personal beliefs, political issues. And for those of you who consider yourself one or the other, why?

Edit[to give an example]:

I consider myself a liberal generally.

What I think when I think of conservatives: A social conservative. A, or nearly a, religious fundamentalist, sometimes racist (in the south), anti-gay rights and often discriminitory or outright hateful of gays. In favor of making restrictive laws based on 'moral (often religiously moral) principles'. Pro-life (though I know several people who call themselves liberal who are pro-life, and who I would consider liberal).

What I think when I think of liberals: Social liberals, very tolerant and accepting of differences in people, even ideological ones, though very intolerant of intolerance. In favor of environmental protection.

Its quickly all getting confused however, and I myself can only give very restrictive definitions of both that leave out a lot of things. Which is why I'm asking. Mine idea's of both are quite clearly very limited to the small group of people I know, and my idea of conservatives quite obviously only includes a single extreme. My idea of liberals is based merely off myself and most of my outwardly political friends, who probably don't match the general 'liberal'.

So how does everyone else define them? What does everyone else think of when they think liberal or conservative? Why do you think of these things?

[ December 03, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Alcon ]

Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :

So why now do people see Liberals as those who favor government involvement in everything (tons of social programs, government handouts, etc.) and conservatives as those who believe in free enterprise, let-the-market-decide-who-survives, pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps kind of thing?

FG

Editted to clarify more

[ December 03, 2004, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]

Posted by sndrake (Member # 4941) on :

Here's a statement I made in an article about disability rights and "liberals" - FWIW:

quote:
Liberals say, 'we support the social programs that you depend on, that you agree with -- and because we do that, we should have your unqualified support, even when we support every 'better dead than disabled' cause that comes along.' Folks on the right say, 'Look, we're out there on the protest line in Florida; we're fighting for the lives of people like Terri Schiavo, so we should get your unqualified support, no matter how much we cut the social programs you need to function and even survive.

*Won't see me schmoozing much at functions for either major political party*

[ December 03, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: sndrake ]

Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :

I generally see it as liberals wanting to set up systems that do truly good things for people. Conservatives want to be truly good to themselves and others. Same ends, different means. *shrug*

How that gets mutated by politics, especially national politics, is competely different.

The best example I can think of is comparing my best freind with my dad. My best friend is a reasonably conservative person. He's against taxes, bureaucracies, and a great many social programs. He's vehemently dead-set against (almost) any kind of socialized health care, among other things. He believes that money and unchecked freedoms should be placed in the hands of average people so they may use for the betterment themselves or others how they see fit. He also votes solidly Republican, if it makes a difference.

My dad, on the other hand, is very liberal. He's for single-payer health care, he wants instant runoff voting, he's very pro-choice, and wants a much more progressive tax curve. He votes mostly Progressive (that's Vermont's large left-of-Democratic party). He has a cynical view of community as a support structure, and leans heavily toward government social programs as safety nets.

Both want the best for people, in general, but thier beliefs take them to different outlets for that desire.

Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :

Conservatives believe that by providing breaks for the wealthy and powerful they can help the rest of the nation as Good Things Trickle Down. This only works when the wealthy and powerful allow any Good Things to trickle anywhere.

Liberals believe that by providing breaks for the poor and powerless they can help the rest of the nation as the lower classes Pull Themselves Up the Economic Ladder and become Productive Citizens. This only works when the poor and powerless actually use the breaks and don't just spend their time finding ways to get more breaks without actually working.

And yup, that's horribly simplistic and rife with stereotypes.

Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :

There are many different uses of these terms, but here's the two biggest uses, as I see them:

Firstly, in the vague, theoretical sense:
liberal = someone who tends to base political beliefs on reason hypothesizing about how the world ought to be, questioning tradition and experience (the ideal for this might be an academic)
conservative = someone who bases their political beliefs on tradition and experience, questioning the practical workability of more liberal theories (the ideal for this might be a prominent experienced civic or religious community leader)

But then, the most common use is the political use:
Liberal = someone who believes in the general set of beliefs that supposedly corresponds to the previous theoretical idea of a liberal, but in actuality consists of a bunch of ideas that are only loosely related, and tend to emphasize big government responsibility, a high degree of individual and personal liberty, and an idealistic, compromising foreign policy.
Conservative = someone who believes in the general set of beliefs that supposedly corresponds to the above theoretical idea of a conservative, but in actualisty consists of a bunch of ideas that are only loosely related, and tend to emphasize small government, government regulation of social norms, and a pragmatic, nationalist foreign policy.

In the political sense, I don't think there's any way to completely define either of them, aside from just listing all the specific beliefs, because each side has beliefs that don't fit in with the others very well, no matter how you define it.

[ December 03, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Xaposert ]

Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :

Tres, I agree with your first definitions and think that's why it's a good thing we as a country are so diverse. We need that questioning of tradition, but we shouldn't go haring off in any direction that sounds good at the moment.

Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :

For me the words' bases tell me the basic definition, and then I add my own.

Conservative - Protect and conserve a certain way of living. Government more involved with social and moral issues- prevention. Economically less involvement, fewer social programs.

Liberal - Free. Freedom to choose; less governmental social moral involvement- allows choice. Economically more involvement, more social programs.

And then there are the biased ways of looking:

Liberal- open minded, ready to change.
Conservative- not so open-minded, not so open to risk.

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

*bump* I'd like more opinions on this if people could... unless everyone else agree's with what has already been posted...

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :

Ok I don't have one for conservative but when I hear liberal I think mr. combs

Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :

From HANNITY and colmes?

Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :

mr combs is a teacher at the high school I went to.

Posted by Alcon (Member # 6645) on :

quote:
but when I hear liberal I think mr. combs

He's a social studies teacher at the high school breyer went to, and that I'm a senior at. He's also the chairman (?) of the local democratic party.

Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :

I was wondering the same question....