I have had stomach acid like this in a long time. I admit, the power of self delusion is strong. I wanted to believe that my relationship with my parents was improving and that with me nearly 26 they were finally starting to accept my adult status. Hasn't happened. Here's my story. I guess my family overall is extremely good at self delusion.
My grandfather sent me a check that I received on Monday. I called my mother last night to tell her that it arrived. (She's the one who actually does the mailing since he lives with them.)
Somehow asking my mother what Granddaddy would like for Christmas turned into open season on the way I live my life. I got yelled at for having $400 on my credit card, (which I didn't think was all that bad) and she asked me why I paid all the bills and Steve didn't contribute anything. This is laughable considering the near entirety of his paychecks goes to pay our housepayment and as a result I pay all of the day to day expenses from my paycheck. It comes out of his cause his is reliably on the 10th and 25th each month while my paycheck is biweekly and therefore jumps from having the income skewed towards the beginning to the ends of months at times. But I shouldn't have to justify this to her to begin with.
Then I got the "when are you getting married" bit, and I said I don't know weddings cost money, we might not. There's really no reason to... I was told that marriage licenses were cheap in Vegas, and that they would have paid for my wedding had I done things the "right" way. I said, yeah right, my dad used to say that if I got married it would be in wetsuits on the beach cause that would be cheapest. My mother goes, "Can't you tell it was a joke?" And the answer is (though it didn't really get included in the conversation with her) is that my parents are extremely cheap, and there was an always undertone of seriousness behind the joke. As a result I would *never* have asked them to pay a dime for my wedding regardless of whether it took place under circumstances they approved of or not.
Then we moved on to my education. (I was trying to change the subject to my possible MBA plans) I was talking with my little brother Stephen, who is majoring in Chemical Engineering the same as I did. He's taken things far slower and isn't burned out as a result. I then got yelled at for taking so many classes and burning myself out, when the whole idea of getting two degrees in engineering simultaneously was largely the idea of my father. And why I did internships instead of coming "home" for summers.
At this point I'd had it. I said Mom, "I love you, but you and I don't get along. We are too alike on some things and too different on others. We get along much better far away from each other. I've gotten along better with you in this past year than I have in a long time. But in person we just don't get along well." She tried to say we didn't argue that much and that even if we did argue that she and my little brother Nate argue too. I first recalled a specific argument we had, before I could drive, that became infamous because it involved of a giant glass of red coolade being spilled all over my books as my mother rounded a corner while we were yelling at each other. And then I said, I don't want to argue. If we lived near each other that's all we'd do because we don't see eye to eye on anything.
Somewhere in the whole mess, but not necessarily in the wedding context, I think more in the context of me being an engineer, she told me that my father would rather have had me been a waitress! (tone dripping with condescension to all waitresses) than living with Steve. This did hurt. Because for all she says she loves me, there are strings attached. I will never be accepted for who I am, unless I "repent". And I refuse to live the lifestyle they want me to. (I really don't think it has anything to do with spiritual repentance, even though they think that is the biggest issue. The issue is really control and the fact that they don't have it anymore.)
The conversation went back to financial matters which I figured I was safer on. I wasn't getting mad through this whole thing, nor was the conversation actualy an argument. I was sad that we were having this disscussion and that she's still hurt and angry. But there isn't a lot I can do about it at this point.
Anyway I got told that we should have refinanced our house (which we purchased just over a year and a half ago) down to a lower interest rate. She told me this once before too. Both times I've tried to explain that we don't have enough equity to refinance, and how a no-down payment loan, like we have means that you are going to have a higher interest rate. (It's at 6.25%, which really isn't bad.) I should have also mentioned that the value of houses out here, while still a solid increasing investment aren't skyrocketing at the obscene rates of CA. There, because the values have risen so steeply, you probably would have enough equity to refinance every year. Of course logic doesn't actually come into play here anyway. I didn't do what she wanted me to do because she thought I *should* and that's the bottom line.
She kept trying to go back to the marriage thing, and was breaking down in tears. I calmly continued discussing the intracies of Home Equity loans and 80-20 mortgages because I refused to go into the other conversation like she wanted me to. She'd say something, and I'd talk about home equity loans and say something else and I'd talk more about home equity loans.
Then she busted out with that it's my fault that my little brother Nate hates Christmas. I said I can see that, I've been miserable on a lot of Christmases. But apparently he hates Christmas because he misses me and I'm not there anymore and that they'd pay if I came out to see them.
She just doesn't get why I don't want to come out there. You'd think the current conversation we were having, might have given her some clues....
Anyway she was in tears and she handed the phone to my brother Nate.
[ December 21, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(yes that's only the first half) Second installment on my conversation with my brother Nate coming later today. I had to get that much out of my system now though.
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh, Banna!!!
*hugs* Oh sweetie, I'm sorry. You handled it admirably, and did everything right. I'm so sorry it was a sucky conversation. I think you're so wonderful - that's a terrible conversation and thing to deal with. I'm sorry. Posted by Shan (Member # 4550) on :
(((AJ)))
Hang in there!
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
((AJ)) I'm so sorry things are going that way. It sounds like you're handling it really well though. Best of luck.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Stay strong, okay? The only immediate thing I can think of to suggest is to cut your mom out of all financial matters - it's none of her business how much money is on your credit cards.
As far as Steve goes, AJ you two have been in a committed relationship for quite awhile and it appears to be working well. I'm sorry your family can't see this. We're all here for you!
space opera
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
((AJ))
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
::sends Banna love::
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
$400 is NOT a lot to have on your cards. Your financial arrangements sound well-thought-out. I'm sorry your family is not more accepting of Steve.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
what kat said.
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Wow! That is amazing! <<<<<<hugs>>>>>> I know how upsetting this must be for you. By the way, how did you turn out so sane, AJ? <laughs> I would think you were adopted if you didn't look so much like your brothers and parents.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
addendum to my conversation with my mother: One of the more interesting things mentioned is that my father is still waiting for Steve to come out and talk to him like I told them he would. She's mentioned this in previous conversations. Now, I have honestly no reccollection of telling them this. There was a point after we had graduated, and before we had jobs, that we were talking about going out there to visit. But I didn't think the purpose was for Steve to talk to my father. It would have been more to scope out the employment situation and see them for as long as I could tolerate. Having Steve with me, is the only way I could have handled being in that close of proximity with them for any length of time.
I don't know what to do about this misconception. I must have said something at some point that led them to this skewed, but I'm not sure what. The fact is, after what I went through with them and the guy I was seeing *before* Steve, I had vowed to keep any significant other away from my family as much as possible, because of the destructive controlling stuff that goes on. It isn't that Steve isn't willing to go through it with me. It is that it is senseless and unnecessary.
Honestly, now, it would be entertaining, because I know that all of the little jabs that they make that would be extremely detrimental to a budding relationship, won't make any difference because Steve and I have such a solid relationship, and because the jabs don't actually hurt Steve. When he has to deal with them, he sees them clearly for what they are and he actually thinks the are pretty pathetic. In private he's able to put amusing spins on them to me that helps alleviate my own pain over what my family is doing.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Well in this case it is definitely easier to talk finances, than it is to discuss my lifestyle. She asked me what I was going to use the money from my grandfather. I told her I'd probably put $400 to pay my credit card and $400 towards our bedroom floor. (In reality I have a little more on my credit card, but still not an amount that is in anyway excessive, she assumed that it was the total amount on the card and I allowed it to sound like that.)
She asked why in the world I had allowed $400 on my credit card and I said "dog show entries" but in hindsight while that wasn't entirely it. The largest portion of it is still left over from July when I went to my friends wedding. But either way it doesn't matter. Obviously I'm irresponsible with money. AJ
Posted by blacwolve (Member # 2972) on :
((((AJ)))) I don't know what else to say.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"It is that it is senseless and unnecessary. Honestly, now, it would be entertaining..."
AJ, as much as I think your parents are highly unreasonable about most things, in this case I do not think it's senseless and unnecessary of them to expect to meet the man with whom you've been living for several years. I'm sure there are control issues involved -- I know many traditionalist fathers who, for example, would like to have to give their "permission" to suitors in such situations -- but I think there's genuine love and concern there, too.
I think you've handled things with your family fairly well over the years, especially given some of their particular hang-ups. Still, I think meeting Steve is pretty much the least they could expect from you at this point -- and I'm not saying that just out of some expected entertainment value, either.
To a lot of fathers, the "new man" is just that: the man who will be taking care of you now that he isn't given the chance anymore. Whether or not this is a particularly outdated way of looking at things isn't the issue, insofar as that consideration isn't even likely to cross their conscious minds.
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
With my dad, I started taking to telling them I was doing shocking things, and that made reality sound so much better.
Not have enough ready cash? That's because I spent $300 on a haircut, Dad. Not getting a real job (Boy Scouts doesn't count)? That's because I spend all my time watching Jane Austen movies and can't be bothered, Dad. Not batting my eyes at the accountants in my ward? That's because I'm bored and would be forced to run away or cut the brakes on his car, Daddy.
---
Our conversations got much better. For me, anyway. I worry sometimes that me being a bit of a bully isn't exactly a healthier situation that him being a bully, but something had to happen to shock us out of the pattern. I haven't done that for a while, but bring it back whenever I get criticized. On the happy side, I haven't been criticized in a while.
[ December 08, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well, Anna, I know exactly how you feel, and I have to say that you handled that call 100 times better than I would have. Or have. The line about continuing to talk about home equity loans almost had me rolling. Good job staying kind and mature!
The thing about the holidays... does your mom have the same attachment to Hallmark traditions (you know, the traditions we're supposed to adore and hold sacred because the TV tells us to) that mine does? So that, no matter how miserable and mean and bitter every family gathering is, it's the END OF THE WORLD if her little girl isn't there to help decorate the tree? It's excruciating, explaining during every one of these blow-ups that , holiday or not, her refusal to stop treating me with contempt and disrespect makes going home the last thing I'd ever want to do.
And ooooh, that using other members of the family against you.... Both my mother and grandmother do exactly the same thing with my brother and grandfather, and it just kills me.
Someone should write a brilliant self-help book about women who grow up with psychotic grandmothers and their ill-raised daughters. And how they eventually break the cycle and become wonderful, kind-hearted human beings. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tom, I understand your perspective. However you are assuming remotely reasonable people when you say that.
The question really wasn't Steve, it was me. It is only now, that *I* feel secure enough to handle the meeting. Steve probably could have dealt with it fine long ago. Like I said he could handle the barbs and jabs. Until recently however, I wouldn't have been able to handle the fact my family was throwing the horrible stuff they will at him.
In fact, we are planning to go out there in early June for my little brother's college graduation. There is already going to be a lot of conflict on the visit, because I am planning an itenerary that includes *not* staying overnight at my parents house and spending time with other friends and not my family the entire time.
More about this is coming in my post on the conversation with my little brother.
AJ
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
*hug* hang in there. Parents are impressive stress-inducers. They can punch your buttons like no one else can.
They might see the marriage thing as a bit of defiance at this point. It's grown and neither of you want to back down from your positions. The problem is, it's your life, not hers.
Honestly, this sort of yuckiness is why my parents know so little about my life. They would disapprove of anything that wasn't directly related to medical school or finding a successful korean husband. We've reached a compromise in terms of visiting home, though. I usually go home twice a year, for about 4 days a piece. The last time I flew home, my dad and I got in an argument in the car ride from the airport. Maybe this time I'll make it a whole day with no arguments. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Also Tom, I suspect that I may be more feminist in this regard than you are. I reject the notion that I need to be "taken care of" nearly completely. I am fully capable of living alone, without Steve. I *choose* to live with Steve because I like the guy. Yeah he's a better cook than I am, but I pay the bills cause I'm more anal retentive.
Yeah if one or the other of us is sick, we do attempt to make the person feel comfortable and each has taken the other to the ER once. Maybe our relationship is more eglitarian than I realized. We do support each other unconditionally, but that is still different than the patriarchial "taking care of" that you imply.
Yes, it may be what part my father has in mind, and maybe that is part of the reason it bothers me so much. However the "talk" with my father that I know Steve would be having, would be far more, if not entirely, a theological third degree grilling, and probably very little of the "do you love my daughter and value her for who she is" type of discussion.
AJ
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
I think there are a few clear solutions here. First off, go home for Christmas but insist on going to Christmas day Church at a Unitarian Church. Second, find religion, Hinduism is good, or maybe Zen Buddhism, and send your family letters about how it has changed you're life and why they should join it right now or their dharma is leading them straight to the Hindu/Buddhist version of Hell (namely, being re-incarnated as a dung beatle).
(((((AJ)))))
Hobbes
[ December 08, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs*
quote:Second, find religion, Hinduism is good, or maybe Zen Buddhism,
(You know I have to say it. ) They'd have a heart attack if you become Mormon.
[ December 08, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: katharina ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Loves me some Hobbesy.
Actually I did mention United Methodists *gasp* @dkw
AJ
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Actually, marriage licenses are expensive in Las Vegas – almost twice what they are here. Not that that was the point.
::hugs::
Do what's best for your relationship with Steve, and throw whatever crumbs you can to your family.
edit : right back atcha.
[ December 08, 2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Oh, that would just be hilarious! Convert to LDS and start proselytizing them! Endlessly! Nitpicking their choices in the process!
I love it.
Heck, I could pretty easily become all the things that terrify my mother and grandmother.... I could be Jewish, liberal, and vegetarian, and be loudly overbearing about it every time we spoke. Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Oh, yeah, Katie's strategy is great! When asked impertinent questions about your financial matters, marriage plans, and so on, respond with inventive or ridiculously exaggerated silliness.
<high fives Katie>
[ December 08, 2004, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
(((((Banna))))) Hang on, sweetie. You're a swell person, and you do what you can with your family. It must be very fcrustrating.
Posted by Megan (Member # 5290) on :
(((AJ)))
I'm afraid I have no good advice...but plenty of hugs. Good luck--holidays are so rough when it comes to family sometimes.
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
(((hugs))) I know what you're going through, I had a similar situation with my dad (except that I was getting married, and he didn't "give his permission", so he thought that should stop us?) My parents hate each other, and anything one is for, the other is usually against (and vice versa). Now I also have in-laws who have control issues. My life is very complicated. But I hope you figure out some way to stop the madness, or at least escape it without too much hurt.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
Or you could just tell them you're a lesbian, then they'd be begging you to go back to Steve.
Hobbes Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
Except that they'd never let you forget it, and you'd be getting questions from their church friends for the rest of your life...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote: Oh, that would just be hilarious! Convert to LDS and start proselytizing them! Endlessly! Nitpicking their choices in the process! [Big Grin]
But you'd have to get married before you can do that, and I don't know if you want to risk doing anything that might please your mom. Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:Except that they'd never let you forget it, and you'd be getting questions from their church friends for the rest of your life...
I think that'll stop when she starts coming onto to the wives of any inquisitive husbands.
Hobbes
[ December 08, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Hobbes ]
Posted by ketchupqueen (Member # 6877) on :
OooOOOOooo. I like.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Also Tom, I suspect that I may be more feminist in this regard than you are."
Hey, I didn't say I agreed. I just said that one of the reasons meeting Steve would be so important to your father is that he's likely to be at least a little bit patriarchal about things. And since the meeting itself is unlikely to result in any actual physical harm, I think it's a "better sooner than later" thing, if only to indulge them a bit on a single issue that they're likely to be emotional about.
I'm not a big fan of digging in one's heels in all cases; they can't take a mile when you only give 'em an inch, even if they can whine endlessly about only getting an inch. In this case, I think meeting Steve is likely to be an inch more than a mile.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 433) on :
quote:I think meeting Steve is likely to be an inch more than a mile.
The first time I read that I thought you meant 5280'1"...
Hobbes Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I agree with Space Opera that it is really none of your parents' business how you and Steve handle finances. You are both adults, both supporting yourselves with jobs. And if they think $400 is a high credit card balance, they should see our monthly balances!
You have been with Steve long enough for it to be considered a stable relationship. Whether or not you want to get married is your business, not your parents. I do agree with Tom that it is time you introduced Steve to the family, but you said you are planning to do that.
You handled yourself well in the phone conversation. I understand so well how aggravating that family stuff can be. Kudos for keeping your cool on the phone and answering questions with grace.
*hugs*
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Well, it makes sense that Tom's now seeing family relations from a father's perspective. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Tom, I agree with Anna that you're assuming that she and Steve are dealing with rational, mature adults.
If you knew, for a fact (say you had a time machine!), that Anna and Steve's visit would be one big ball of misery for everyone involved, that it would only give her parents more ammunition to use against her for years down the road, that they would take the opportunity to whisper every cruel thing they could think of to try to either force Anna to leave him or otherwise fall back under their control... would you still think that it would be a good move on her part to go home for the holiday?
If getting together results in nothing but unhappiness for both parties, and indeed only fans the flames of resentment into a full-scale tire fire (est 1989).... what's the point? Why not let sleeping dogs lie, and let the instigators of the ill-will keep their misery to themselves?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"would you still think that it would be a good move on her part to go home for the holiday?"
I think there's a difference between a good move and a necessary move. I have done things that I knew with some surety would result in misery because familial duty demanded it of me.
IMO, introducing her father to the man with whom she intends to spend her life is one of those required behaviors. It's not unfair of her to impose restrictions and guidelines on that meeting, although such requests may easily (and rightly) be viewed as suspicious and/or uncharitable. But unless the familial contract itself has been previously broken in some way, I think an introduction is demanded -- to the point that refusing to make one is itself grounds for considering that contract broken.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Part II My conversation with Nate
First of all, Nate is my youngest brother. We have always had a special bond with each other. I still miss him, moreso than my middle brother, because we spend so much time together. We did crazy projects like build a luxury iguana cage together and make a quilt together had fun doing them.
So he gets on the phone. I said, I'm sorry Mom is crying, I don't know what to do.
There were a couple of issues discussed, and they were kind of mixed together. The first one, is that he is pretty ticked I haven't come out there to see him. I didn't know this until now. I got a lecture on how he knows lots of other people who make a lot less money than I do and they still find time to see their families and how he's had to come out and visit me twice and there isn't any reciprocity. I pointed out that there is a visit being planned for our other brother's college graduation. And the two times they have come out to visit it's been rarely inconvienent for me: A "We're coming!" with little warning. And I've had to work during the days every time they've visited, except for having like Christmas off.
I also explained once again, that which I have bemoaned here as well. Even though I like my job, for the first two years I had a grand *total* of two weeks of vacation. Plus in the first year I spent almost a month of time out sick due to operations and mono. And our sick leave policy was revised shortly thereafter by HR to be extroardinarily stringent (not triggered by me, there were people who were abusing it without major medical isssues.)
Yes, I took a week this year and went to St. Louis for a dog show. (I got to see Dan_Raven too!) I could have spent that time in California I guess. However my plans for that week at the Cardigan Corgi National Specialty had been made two years in advance.
I explained, also, that a lot of people paid hourly are *allowed* to take more leave from their jobs, however they also take a cut in pay to do so because they aren't working as many hours. And as a salaried employee, that isn't an option. I said I'm an engineer. I work like Dad. Don't you remember how much Dad worked when we were little? You have to pay your dues before you get the vacation time like he has now. The fact is he's 6 years younger than me and really doesn't remember.
My Dad took *one* non weekend-only family vacation in my childhood. That was to Colorado Springs for two weeks to visit my grandparents. Nate said "But dad always took vacation for our 3-day swim meets, and he went to your dog shows!" Which did nothing but prove my point. The dog shows I went to with my father were *always* on a weekend within driving distance. The 3-day swim meets he started attending later, were not ones I was in, and he'd changed jobs and started working for the government in civil service in order to get the increased vacation time. He always had at least 2 weeks vacation at the non-government jobs he worked at, but most of the time he'd take those two weeks when he turned in his resignation notice and would actually start employment at his next job and thus get double paid for those two weeks. I'm sure it helped them out financially.
Nate also doesn't know yet what it's like to graduate from college and realize you have to start a life of your own from scratch, with little or no savings. It is possible he will never actually face this since he is the baby of the family. But he doesn't understand the paradigm of being fresh out of college and struggling to stabilize your finances either. I did finally get the point home to him about the fact that I work "like Dad" and that he really didn't understand the obligations involved. He also acknowledged that my mother really doesn't understand this either. (I knew she didn't, I think I tried this approach with her once and it fell on deaf ears.)
The third issue was the "spiritual" issue. He prefaced it, which I respect him for, with the fact that he still wants a relationship with me regardless of our disagreements in this area. Then he asked me if I believed in God. I said, oh, probably 80% of the time I do. Which of course just floored him that I could say that.
He told me that my mother cries every day because of me. And that my lifestyle constantly hurts him too, especially when he explains to his friends that I'm living with a guy. I said, "Well it isn't really any of their business is it? And why do you feel you have to explain this to your friends to begin with?" He said, because they care about me. "And they pray for you, you've got over 100 people praying that you'll come back to God."
Basically he said that he's worried he won't see me in Heaven and that I'm going to Hell instead. I said, why not let God worry about that? Somewhere in this conversation I did say that I could never be a conservative fundamentalist again, and that if I *was* still a Christian I was a liberal one and if I went back to church I'd likely be United Methodist. (dkw's testimony is literally one of the reasons I believe in God the 80% of the time I do.) We also discussed my parents. My father doesn't teach sunday school anymore because he feels he is disqualified as a spiritual leader because he's failed spiritually in his own house because I'm in "spiritual rebellion."
I told Nate, that my parents aren't responsible for me. I'm responsible for my own spiritual choices. I'm sorry I'm hurting them but that is the way it is. He said, well if you were sorry, you wouldn't be hurting them. And this is where we did make progress: I said, "Nate, do you honestly think I'm living my life the way I am to *deliberately* hurt them??" Once it was phrased that way, it suddenly put it more into perspective for him. He said, well I kind of thought so until you just told me otherwise.
Obviously he's gotten this line as a result of my parents. Basically, my parents think I've made all of my life choices in the last several years, to deliberately spite them and cause them the maximum amount of pain. I was rather flabbergasted at the utter selfishness their own perspective. It makes it extremely easy to blame me for everything that way. It is my fault my mother grieves for me every day, and that my Dad doesn't teach Sunday School. I suppressed the snarky urge to say "well why isn't God comforting them?" I don't, I *can't* believe in a God that makes his followers miserable like they are making themselves miserable over this. And that is what it comes down to.
The conversation with my brother was far better than that with my mother. I am sorry about the resentment he has for not seeing him, and it is probably somewhat justified, though I don't regret my own actions either. I had to cut him off because I was driving into the backwoods of Illinois to drop my dog Ciara off with the handler and lose reception. And I forgot to turn my cell phone off when I got there and so my battery ran down with it constantly "searching" for signal. It was a relief actually. They couldn't call me back and try to continue the discussion. I handled this conversation far, far better than I used to handle similar conversations, but I still couldn't take more last night.
AJ
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Familial contract? Would you mind explaining?
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Wow. That's an interesting conversation.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
AnnaJo, I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. Sounds like Steve -- like you -- has a good head on his shoulders, and I know how well you two suit each other.
I hope it gets easier.
(((AJ)))
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tom, as I said, now I feel far more ready to cope with the stressful situation that Steve meeting my parents will bring about. As I said, plans were already in the works to go out and visit them now that the timing feels appropriate. I agree that them getting to know him isn't unreasonable. However what their idea of "getting to know" entails is pretty extreme.
If could have been sure that even the possible "talk" between my father and Steve would have been conducted in a polite and respectful manner (to me, "polite and respectful" is my parents responsibility as part of any "familial contract") I'm sure this would have happened long ago.
AJ
As far as "familial contract" goes, I think they voided their end a long time ago by the way I was treated, long before Steve was on the radar. I was fighting with them even when I was leading their "approved" lifestyle. That lifestyle, which proclaims itself giving meaning and joy to one's life became increasingly hollow empty and meaningless and I felt more and more disenfranchised, as I realized there was no place for a woman like me, in that brand of Christianity. I either had to change fundamental aspects of my god-given personality (hide my intelligence in order to get a man and get married and submit to him in spiritual matters even if I was better at the brand of theology I was taught than any guy I knew) or gradually drift away once I realized that I was becoming a hypocrite because I was teaching childern things I didn't necessarily believe myself.
AJ
[ December 08, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Tom, I have to admit, I'm totally floored by your post. I'd love it if you explained further. Why is it so important for her father, specifically, to meet Steve? Has her mother already met Steve? And what is this "contract" that she's under? Is there a list of rules that she is bound by, having been born to them? If so, what do they have to do to "break" this contract? What does she have to do? What are the consequences of breaking it?
Posted by dabbler (Member # 6443) on :
oh darling. I don't know what I'd do in your position.
Your decisions are not bad decisions. They're trying to manipulate and guilt you into living their lifestyle, but it's not worth giving up your sense of self, independence, and happiness.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(see edits above, sorry my editing got longwinded)
AJ
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
Oh, Banna-bean, what a rotten family you've got to contend with. Even worse that they use religion as an excuse for their own selfishness and small-mindedness. *hugs*
I say, go visit them, but laugh loudly and pointedly directly into their faces every time a mention of you living situation comes up.
on a side note, do i remember that they live in PA? Another reason for you to go! Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*thinks* Hobbes, right? Hobbes talked about the social contract?
Poly, the theory is that civilization is only possible when we operate under a social contract. In a family, the parents provide certain things, and the children in return provide certain things. Meeting the SO is one of the things a child should provide, and so unless the parents have broken their end of the bargain, it is not unreasonable to expect to meet him.
-------
<off topic>In my family, there IS no social contract anymore, except with my little brother. It was interesting - my dad and stepmother know it. When I told them I was getting married three weeks after I got home from my mission, my stepmother's response was "I guess we are lucky we were invited." I'm not excatly sure when it was broken, but it was broken before I came home from my mission, and I didn't completely realize it was broken until my brother got married, didn't invite me, and no one else had a problem with that. </off topic>
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
kat:
quote:I worry sometimes that me being a bit of a bully isn't exactly a healthier situation that him being a bully, but something had to happen to shock us out of the pattern.
Nah...what you did was prove you weren't bullyable (is that a word?), not that you were a bully. I love what you did! You weren't mean, you just refused to answer questions and suggestions that were none of his business and rather than be rude, you made it funny -- even if you didn't really think it was funny.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Leonide it is pschcyoGrandma that lives in PA. My parents live in CA. There is a reason why I split the difference and now live in the Chicago area. If I ever do come out that direction though I'm going to look you up!
AJ
Posted by Leonide (Member # 4157) on :
ugh. I couldn't possibly ask you to visit psychoGrammy for little old me.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Anna, I want to stress that my statements aren't meant to be pointed criticisms of your approach; I think you're doing what can be expected of you, and I think you've handled things fairly well. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't think your parents' expectations of meeting Steve were silly or onerous or unreasonable -- because I don't think they are -- and wouldn't want you to bring that kind of attitude into such a meeting, since I believe it'd poison the atmosphere even farther. I don't think you will, though. I'm mainly explaining further for Poly's sake.
---
"Is there a list of rules that she is bound by, having been born to them? If so, what do they have to do to 'break' this contract? What does she have to do? What are the consequences of breaking it?"
I think there are certain societal rules that you're bound to, simply by virtue of being born into that family, and part of not being a psychopath is being able to figure out what those rules are without having to have them laid out. They're not rules laid down by a specific family, either; they're not things like "all daughters of ours will be good Hindus." One of the most universal, as far as I can tell, is "when you marry or the equivalent, your family gets to meet the person you picked."
And, yes, the contract can be broken through neglect or hatred or abuse. And I'd imagine a lot of little things could add up to constitute such "breakage" -- but it normally would take a lot of little things, because the true consequence of such a broken contract is that you no longer think of the person in breach of contract as a member of your family. You don't think of them. You don't call them. You stop wasting effort on them. (Note that this can, in extreme cases, be reciprocal, and merely an acknowledgement of the status quo; a child who was neglected for years may find that, after decades, they're finally able to cut their neglectful parents out of their thoughts -- even though their parents did it years ago.)
[ December 08, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
(response to Jeniwren and kat) The problem I have, unfortunately, is that I'm too genuine in a lot of ways. I'm not good at making preposterous stuff up. Particularly at thinking it up "on my feet" as it were. Reverting to cold logical finances, "math" as it were, was the only tactic I could think of at that stressful moment. And I was doing it pretty brutally. There was no flow in the conversation because I woudn't respond to her, I'd jump back to the home equity loan situation.
AJ
[ December 08, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
You know Tom along with that, statment above, that "social contract breaking" is exactly what I would have done if I'd *deliberately* set out to hurt my parents. I would have cut them out completely. I cut them out to a point because I couldn't take the pain, but I have been trying to make overtures and keep the channels of communications open, rather than cut them off completely. I think they have truly been trying to keep the communication channels open as well, and that is the one healthy thing going on in all of this.
As it is, with Steve, I don't think I've truly "broken" the social contract. I may have deliberately delayed the fulfillment of it, until the contract can be on more favorable terms, but it hasn't been my intent to "break" it.
AJ
[ December 08, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. I know this doesn't solve things, but maybe it could be a bit of a help just to get through conversations. If I were you, I'd seriously make a list on paper of topics to switch to when mom pokes her feet into things that don't need to be discussed or responded to. That way you don't find yourself accidently retreating into another hot spot. I really am sorry about this; it almost makes me glad I don't speak to my parents at all. (((AJ)))
space opera
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yeah I should space opera. The problem is I don't think there are any "safe" topics. The finances were kind of it for me this time. But if Mom wants to go there, she's going to get there no matter where we start from.
Earlier in the conversation we were discussing houseplants and whether her dog would eat one or not. Lol, funny thing is now with my current dogs I'm definitely much more of a disciplinarian. In my family, the dogs always got away with murder comparedt to the strictness of the children's upbringing (both of the dogs, Splash and this one, Crouton, get away with walking on top of the dining room table.) I actually have told my mom she should smack his little nose, that it's no different then disciplining a kid... but it doesn't get through! <Grin>
AJ
[ December 08, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
The problem with using the loan as your conversational re-set is that it’s a topic she was giving you grief about, so it still comes across as you defending your life to her, which I think you want to avoid. Maybe you should try talking about the dogs, or the re-decorating project, or even the weather.
Edit: Yeah, what Space Opera said.
[ December 08, 2004, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"I may have deliberately delayed the fulfillment of it, until the contract can be on more favorable terms, but it hasn't been my intent to "break" it."
I believe you, and I'd never think that you'd mean to. But unless you've told that to your parents, they might not know that. It's highly unlikely, after all, that they're self-aware enough to know how offensive they've been, and so all they can see is what you've "done" to them. You know that you're just waiting for a more favorable time to hold up your end, but they're like birds on a wire about the whole thing because they just don't understand.
Believe it or not, I know exactly where you're coming from -- and I'm impressed with how well you're handling it. If you'd like, I'll give you a few more details on my own situation over E-mail.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Yes, but it was the *least* grief. I was going to get grief regardless. And I had logical numbers and cents that I could use as almost a mantra to keep me from responding emotionally.
Discussing something as inane as the weather, can and has turned into a discussion on how cheap airplane tickets are and that I should come see them... "So there is no fixed land."
AJ
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
AJ, part of why I liked what kat did is that it is a technique recommended for kids dealing with bullies. Part of the technique is that they practice their responses so that in the stress of the moment, they have something to come back with. In the stress of the moment is not a good time to try to think up funny comebacks. I can't do that either. I'm guessing that kat gave some thought to how to counter some of what her dad routinely said to her and thought of possible comebacks, then practiced them mentally. It might have been somewhat subconscious for her.
You know your mom, so you probably have a good mental list of Things She Will Probably Criticize You For That Are Really None Of Her Business. You might try writing a list of what these are, then talk with your friends or post them up here so you can get suggestions for snappy comebacks. Not mean or outright rude comebacks, just stuff that sends the message that you aren't going to answer the question, take the suggestion, and you're not going to be cowed or bullied into it either.
That said, I think anyone who deals effectively with controlling parents who can't let their children grow up deserves serious kudos. You've done well.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well, by those definitions, I'd have to say that the "contract" with all but my little brother was broken years ago. I believe they started it (naturally) by refusing to treat me as anything other than a malfunctioning piece of property, and my reaction was to gradually, painfully, and regretfully cut them out of my life. When I think of my grandmother now, it's with calm disinterest... did she move to Arizona? did she ever follow through on those threats to write me out of the will? does she ever think about me, or have I been tossed out of her memory? I'm torn about my mother. I haven't spoken with her since her guilt-trip after my wedding, and I don't look forward to speaking to her again, but I'll always pity her for being dealt such a lousy mother.
I really admire Anna's ability to continue to try to keep communication open. Part of me wishes I'd found a way to do that. I'm certainly not happy about how things have turned out with my family. But I do think I'm much happier than I was when I was crying myself to sleep after every phone call, or going catatonic for hours. And I like to think that my Mom is better off with me as a distant villain she can bitch about with her friends than she was when I was a constant reminder of how depressing she finds her own life.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Tom I agree to a point, but at the same time, they wouldn't understand my "delaying till more favorable conditions occur" either. And explaining that, given what has happened already would likely make things worse rather than better. In otherwords the delayed fufillment technique won't actually work if they are aware of it.
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
jeni, let me get a bit of distance on this last go round, and that sounds like an excellent idea.
whether the role playing will work, I'm not sure but it's definitely worth a try. I definitely think Mom has a radar for my vulnerable moments that I don't have for hers.
AJ
Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Absolutely, (((AJ)))
This is tough stuff. I feel for you.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
And, just to share...
When Mark and I had been dating and living together for over a year, I acquiesced to demands to come home for Christmas, and bring him. I was nervous, obviously, Mark is Jewish, his birthday is Christmas Eve, and my family, especially my grandparents, do not think kindly of "those people". Or any people who aren't exactly like them, but anyhow...
Mom managed to pick a fight on the drive home from the airport, a new record. And it went downhill from there. Though Mark was supremely polite and understanding (he just doesn't have a mean bone in him), my family continued to pick fights and make sarcastic comments the entire trip. They'd compare him, to his face, to the good Christian girl my brother was dating (for all of 2 weeks, never mind he was a total player and I was in a committed relationship...), they asked him all sorts of embarrassing questions, make disparaging comments about him being vegetarian (poor guy only got to eat one dish at Christmas dinner), bring up and then attack his political beliefs... you name it. When we finally got out of there, my Mom made a point to write me and let me know that she was "revolted" that we had shared a bed, and that she could "no longer stand to go into that room".
The next year, after another year of them telling me I was an idiot and a selfish bitch, I let them know we were going to Mark's parents for the holidays. They cried and cajoled and guilt-tripped and berated me.
I just don't get it.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I agree with the things Tom has said here.
FWIW, I consider my mother to have broken that contract in my case, and how Tom described is precisely how I think of her. I haven't spoken with her more than a couple of times since I got married (and she did not attend my wedding--her choice), and I don't think I've spoken with her at all since I've had kids. To the best of my knowledge, she does not know that I have kids, or where (as in, in what city) I live. I do not know if she is still alive, where she lives, or anything else about her life. I don't know of any easy way to contact her if I wanted to. As far as I am concerned, she is not family. That's what breaking the contract, from either end, entails. :-\
(((Poly))) (((AnnaJo))) (((Tom)))
[ December 08, 2004, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Icarus ]
Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
AJ, I just wanted to say it's crap, it sucks, and let me know if there's anything I can do.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*hugs mack*
Man, I'm overwhelmed. I've vented here before, but the e-mails and notes of support I've gotten from ya'll today has me teary eyed.
*Hugs Hatrack*
AJ
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
(((((AJ)))))
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
(((AJ))) Hang in there dear, you're doing wonderfully! Family politics are so.....difficult. Sticky. Uncomfortable.
I can't think of the right word, but you get my drift.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
I prefer blech myself.
(((AJ)))
Families can really screw you around, huh?
You sound like you're doing well. Stay strong. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
BannaOJ, family sucks sometimes. I feel for you. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will tell you what worked for me.
My parents criticized absolutely every single thing I ever did in my entire life. They guilted me, and it worked for a long time. Finally, though, I realized that enough was enough. A five minute phone conversation with my mother would upset me for three weeks.
I set certain topics as absolutely off limits. I'd refuse to discuss them in any way. If I did discuss them, it wouldn't matter what I said, good or bad, they'd find a way to use it against me. So I refused to play. I'd either change the topic, not talk, or tell them I wasn't going to discuss that topic with them. I even went so far as to explain to them what appropriate conversation was and what kind of treatment I would accept from them and what treatment I would not.
They refused to change. I refused to give in. I refused to allow them to continue to damage me. I ended up having to write them off completely. Cut off all contact.
I'm not saying that you'll have to go as far as I did. But I am saying that it would probably do you some good to look at the situatin and carefully examine what you do get out of your relationship with them that's positive. And then deal with them - as much as possible - only on those terms. Refuse to discuss things that are none of their business that you know they'll use against you later. You're an adult, and you're entitled to live a happy life on your terms.
Having said that, I think you've done terric thus far. Good luck. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
A few things. Another good friend of mine, pointed out that this flareup has happened around the holidays and that maybe under it all, what they are trying to say is that they miss me, but this is the only way they can articulate it. Which I think has a point. The problem is that they want me back full-time to be "theirs". And that's not going to happen, even if Steve and I ever broke up.
Secondly, my family has a very different internal paradigm over forms of acceptable communication. I don't think that they realize how different it is. My mother spoke of "butting heads" with Nate. And said they've been fighting more recently, but that's just "what they do". I participated in this sort of activity when I lived at home, because it was how you survived. (Understand that during these yelling conflicts the language stays completely clean of obscenity though Bible verses are allowed as weapons.) But, I didn't like it.
In my life now, I have basically rejected that form of communication. Of course Steve and I have conflicts from time to time, but they are always resolved in a much more civilized manner. (I'm actually glad he doesn't let me get away with the bad behavior my family exhibits because it *always* escalates the conflict rather than solving anything.)
However this puts me at a fundamental disconnect from my family because I'm not playing by what they think the "rules" are. My idea of "home" and the home I've created, is not coming home after a day of work or school and arguing for the next 2-4 hours until bed. The home that I've made with Steve is a place of refuge and calmness. Well it might still be a mess <grin> but it is my refuge.
Thirdly, I think my mother is probably clinically depressed and needs medication. Though in order to get medicated she would have to admit crying daily over a daughter that is young, alive and in good health is pretty rediculous and the problem might partially lie with her. And that won't happen, unfortunately.
AJ
[ December 09, 2004, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Tatiana (Member # 6776) on :
Wow, how incredibly stressful that must have been growing up!
I made a rule for myself last year that I am never again going to sit still and listen to someone I love yelling at me. That I will just excuse myself and leave or hang up whenever that happens. <laughs> Once they raise their voices, there's nothing constructive that's happening anyway. It's only venting and name calling at that point. So I just made it a rule that talking to me requires polite and respectful discourse. It's such a great decision to have made. It's such a good feeling, to know that I don't have to endure that ever again.
Now, though, I'm trying to figure out how to maintain this and still make sure my mom is taken care of while she's sick. I can't really leave and stay gone a week or two now so easily, because I'm worried that she won't have food or clean clothes or bedding in the meantime. So I'm having to learn how never to mention anything about me to give her an opening.
My worst fear is that the dysfunctional habits of my own family are engrained in me so deeply that they will always pop out in times of highest stress. AJ, do you have this concern too? I wish I could learn better responses and somehow embed them deeply enough into my psyche that I could feel confident that the worst in me won't always reappear as if by instinct at the very times that matter most.
[ December 09, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Tatiana ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I know exactly what you mean Tatiana. I don't know if I reflex back to that in times of stress. I think the other thing though is that the way my family deals with each other internally is completely different from they way they deal with others externally. And most of my stress in dealing with people is "external" stress.
Those who are near and dear to me now, like Steve and a couple of other really close friends, don't engage in the same behavior patterns to begin with, so the likelihood of seting me off and falling back into those patterns is fortunately very low. I also think from my perspective I normally didn't initiate the fights when I was with my parents. Most of the time it was self-defense for getting picked on about something again and again and again. It wasn't so much that I was seeking the conflict, as I was seeking away to alleviate the pain I was feeling as a result of their behaviors. So as long as I keep myself removed from their day-to-day life I won't fall back into it either.
Going back to CA this coming June is actually a really big step for me. It feels like the timing is right and I can handle it. But I'm still not completely sure. Hopefully Steve can get the vacation time off to come with me. I However there is some question and we won't know until after the first of the year. Vacations are strongly discouraged during summer at his job, because that is the height of the construction season. But if he tells them in January the odds are good he can get at least a week.
AJ
Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
quote: One of the more interesting things mentioned is that my father is still waiting for Steve to come out and talk to him like I told them he would. She's mentioned this in previous conversations. Now, I have honestly no reccollection of telling them this.
My dad is a pro at misunderstanding. He regularly "forgets" what I said or "thought I meant" things that I never said. The last time he visited I told him he would have to get a hotel room next time because my family needs to be able to stick to our schedule. The guy's loaded so I didn't feel bad about it. Anyway, when I asked him what hotel he was staying in at Christmas he said, "Oh, somehow I got the impression that you didn't want me to stay in a hotel. Anyway, it's too late to get one now, so..." Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
But wait, there's more!
Sigh, Tom I've got quite a collection for you of late. I've comforted myself in the past that at least I haven't gotten any Chick tracts from Grandma even though I've come close. Well, in my christmas/birthday card, I was told that my formerly renegade uncle who is now 'saved' purchased several hundred of them...
*sigh*
AJ
Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
quote:When we finally got out of there, my Mom made a point to write me and let me know that she was "revolted" that we had shared a bed, and that she could "no longer stand to go into that room".
If you shared a bed with someone you weren't married to under your parents' roof against their wishes, then your mother is perfectly entitled to be upset by that. I would be.
While I'm not excusing her other behavior, nor her choice of words, I certainly support her being upset by it. If you knew that would upset her, then it was petty and selfish of you to do it, while you were a guest in her home.
Posted by Brian J. Hill (Member # 5346) on :
I'm not sure I'll ever truly understand the worldview of the fundamentalist evangelical. I consider myself a faithful, believing Christian and I can't even see how some evangelicals can claim to believe in the same God that I profess to believe in.
p.s. I somehow missed this post before, lurker extraordinaire though I may be. So I missed the opportunity to do this: ((AJ)) I also loved Megan's line:
quote: I'm afraid I have no good advice...but plenty of hugs
Those are words to live by.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Belle, it sounds as if the brother has done that and more and nothing has been said sinc his significant other(s) weren't Jewish.
As far as my own family goes I never plan on spending another night under their roof, even if I visit without Steve because of that exact reason.
AJ
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Jack Chick I wonder why I still have that pamphlet..
Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
AJ,
I'm very sorry it has to be like that for you. That really does suck.
One comment I might put in a different light, of course it could have the poor connotations to it as well. But I always try to take statements in the best possible way.
She said she'd rather have you as a waitress than have you living your lifestyle. I think she was expressing her own priorities. Obedience to God has a higher priority in her life than career. She expressed it horribly, and I fear that some of the nobler aspect of her priorities were certainly lost in the concept that she probably conciders waitresses to be low class.
I think you are slowly learning this, but I think it is important to understand that she will never be the mother you needed before or want now. She will not get help for her mental state because she probably thinks it is a righteous state to be in, and not a signal of mental instability. I wish there were magic words that could open her eyes. You wish that more than I do, but there isn't.
Take care, you are handling it well. Take your comfort in Steve. It is fantastic you have such a great guy there.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
*hugs amka*
Wow, while I respect you a lot, I know we don't always see eye to eye. I realize we have drastically different morality standards. You have no idea how much that means to me coming from you specifically.
I know that I need to let go of things that I can not control. I'm doing my best to move on. However one of my little mental crutches "atleast the don't stoop to Jack Chick" was pulled out from under me. Now I've got to move to "at least they don't carry "God Hates Fags" signs.
AJ
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The problem with "at least they don'ts" is exactly what we've experienced here: often, those become "at least they don't yets."
It's probably better to try to justify their existences by looking at examples of positive and/or loving behavior from them, if any, than in trying to find examples of negative behavior in which they haven't yet participated. (If you can't come up with any examples of positive, loving behavior, that's another conversation.)
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I realize there are problems with "at least they haven'ts" yet at the same time when there isn't a lot of positive that I can find in the situation, it sometimes seems to be the most positive spin I can put on it.
With Grandma it's pretty hard since even most "kind" sentences usually have jabs in them unless they are discussing the weather or family news, and even those often are barbed. Of late, I've seriously considered telling them that I want nothing to do with them. But once the words are out it would cause even more chaos than already exists. My mother is already depressed enough. Maybe stirring the pot would make her get treatment, but I'm not willing to go there yet.
It's much easier to find positives with my parents, though I'm becoming increasingly worried about my mother. Talked to a friend of my mother's, X, who is also my friend last night. X is one of the few people that I trust that knows them and lives in CA. X said my mother is crying non-stop too. X is of my mother's generation and has children my age. She doesn't always agree with me and my decisions nor do I always agree with her but we can still communicate and see the others point.
So it was a bit of a shocker when X basically said that this was rediculous that my mother was still dragging this out after 2-3 years and needed to accept that she couldn't change things and move on. She was saying that maybe an alanon-type group would help. I'm not sure but it's an interesting idea. X is the one person who might be able to get away with telling my mother to get help so that my mother *might* listen. I don't know if she will or not.
I wish there was something I could actually do to help my mother. Life is too short to be as misrable as she sounds. The snarky side of me occasionally thinks "Why isn't her God comforting her?" But the part of me that does believe in God says that comfort can be found, she's just not choosing to accept it. And that's really the root of the problem at this point, and why I'm seriously wondering if she needs a therapist. The snarky side of me also wants me to tell her to grow up and get over herself already because this is a petulant display of childishness that she would have *never* let me get away with when she was raising me. But since I haven't figured out how to say any of that nicely I'm simply biting my tounge and not saying anything.
AJ
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
Family's so funny around the holidays. As for breaking the family contract, can I break it with my father in law? He's been demanding for months now that we come home for Christmas. It's on a Saturday so we don't have an excuse this time. (I work at the bank, Chet works retail. We're working everything but Christmas Day. Deal. And we were there the weekend after, it's not like we blew him off.)
What made things complicated was that Mary and Al (Chet's mom and stepdad) suddenly got uninvited to visit Al's son's family for Christmas up here in Tally. My SIL left them a message on their answering machine asking them not to come because they'd decided to just do Christmas with the four of them. Classy, huh? The worst part is that it's almost guaranteed to be a blantant lie. SIL just doesn't like them. Why she wants to hang out with the guilt tripping control freaks instead of the happy hippies, I have no idea. I love Mary and Al.
So Monday we're trying to rearrange our plans for Friday. Then my grandmother calls. Don't I realize my mother is heart broken that Christy and I won't be there for Christmas? Christy's at boot camp and can't help it, but I should be there to support my mother. Now, my mom was practically dancing in the streets at not having to do anything for Thanksgiving this year for the first time ever. There's no way she had a problem with us showing up Christmas afternoon. But my Grandmother still refers to the year my mom did that as "the year we skipped Christmas." So I assured my Grandmother that we would see her that weekend. She lamented that we wouldn't get to see her before she left - on Monday.
Fortunately, I expect this sort of thing from her and find it somewhat amusing. But as I'm relating the story to Chet, he starts getting all pissed off and telling me how one of these days he's going to get in an argument with my Grandma and I'd better be prepared for it. Wha?
I finally decided it's transferance. He gets mad at his dad for being a control freak but doesn't want to be mad at him. So he gets mad at my Grandma for doing the same kinds of things. He's probably also a bit pissed that I don't let it bug me while he generally tries to keep daddy happy. So I assured him that Grandma is not an issue. I'm not placating her, we're still doing things the way we intended. I think he's ok with it, but we'll see this weekend.
Good luck, AJ, and all the Rackers. We must find a way to be happy - if only to spite our families. Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
*hugs AJ* I love you, sweetie. I think you are handling this wonderfully.
There's something so incredibly sad about realizing that your parents will never be the kind of parents you need and want them to be. It's very freeing (I've managed to do it only in the past year), but it's so sad. It's giving up, and it's necessary for your own mental health, but it does feel like there is something lost then.
On the other hand, my relationship with my dad has improved about fifty times ever since I gave up, yelled, and laid out the conditions for our continued talking. I HATED doing it - I don't approve of such bullying behavior - but it worked. Go figure. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I think I have given up in the area you are talking about. There is a vast difference between my mother and my grandmother and I've realized I've conflated the two in this thread.
My grandmother I'd given up on long ago, as far as ever having a relationship with her other than the obligatory Christmas present. I had a hard time dealing with the pain even after I'd techically given up. I couldn't make it not hurt anymore, though repeating the silliness and having other people see it for what it is, is one of my best coping mechanisms. It is still depressing when she reaches new lows though. In this latest note was also something saying that she doesn't have my phone number. I believe that to be untrue, since my mother gave it to her quite a while ago and it hasn't changed since last Christmas. She included her own phone number and I got the underlined 'Call us sometime' bit. Also asked if the coat she gave me last year for christmas fit because they still have the post office insurance documentation on it. I remember quite clearly thanking her for it over the phone *last* christmas and telling her it fit perfectly because it did. It's all a ploy to make me feel guilty enough to call.
I also got a Christmas card from one of my aunts, my mother's sister saying and I quote: 'I think you are wonderful (heartshape) Here's my phone number call me sometime.' Why? I just don't get it. We have nothing to talk about. (Actually there is one health issue that we appear to share, Reynaud's syndrome, which I guess I could ask her about sometime.) But, I highly doubt she actually wants a relationship with me on my terms. I'm extremely suspicous that she just wants to start talking to me so that she can try to lead me back to "righteousness" and make me feel guilty for "hurting my mother so".
AJ
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
With my mother, I really *would* like a relationshp with her. But it will never be the relationship she wants. I can accept that it will never be the relationship that I would want, and try to work with what is, but she can't. To work with what *is* is basically acknowledging that she isn't going to change me and she can't do that. And therein lies the main problem.
I think she honestly thought she was "close" with me throughout my childhood and adolescence, when she wasn't at all. I mean she'd tell people how close we were all the time when I was growing up, and what was I going to do? Stand there and argue with her about it, in front of other people considering how much we argued anyway? I've told her plainly that as adults we clearly do not get along in person and have a better relationship from far away but I think the root of this does lie back to her earlier self-delusions, that I let go uncontested then cause it wasn't worth the fight. Plus she had the position of power in the relationship then, because I *wasn't* independent.
AJ
[ December 22, 2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
I didn't know you have Reynaud's, AJ. One of my nieces has that. Does it bother you much? (I know degrees of affectedness vary a lot.)
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Well I haven't had an *official* diagnosis because it hasn't been worth it. But even out in CA I would have appendages get cold and turn white because the blood flow would stop which is a pretty good indication. And knowing it already *is* in my family as well. How much it affects me actually has a lot to do with my general health. If I'm completly healthy then it the blood flow shut off only happens if I ignore the fact I'm getting cold (like while sitting at the computer). In general my appendages are always cold.
If I do get chilled suddenly with even a few degree sudden temperature change. Steve has wittnesed my convulsive shivering attacks that happen. If I'm not in perfect health, though all symptomes become markedly more severe.
So overall pretty mild, I don't like it when even though I'm bundled up as much as I can and wearing gloves my hands hurt and ache when I walk outside. I can ignore the pain and generally my body functions. I know my Aunt has it much more severely but it escalated with her age as well. This is why I'm moving to a warmer climate in my 15-20 year plan.
AJ
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense! Before she was diagnosed and my SIL learned how important it was to dress her in warm socks and mittens when it was so much as cool, it was a big problem -- even here in sunny SoCal! Now, it's just something that she has to keep in mind, and rarely a big deal. But that's largely because it rarely gets all that cold here.
The way life works though, she'll end up living somewhere cold when she grows up. Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
Wow, that's probably terrible for you right now. I don't know how cold it is down there, but the lows up here are around -11... And my parents haven't been keeping the heat on... :/
But enough small talk...
quote: But the part of me that does believe in God says that comfort can be found, she's just not choosing to accept it.
From what I know of the situation, I totally agree with this statement. IMO, regardless of what you believe about God, it's apparent that your mother is dragging this out. I can understand her feeling pain over what she considers a betrayal, but there comes a point at which one should move on, at least somewhat.
The fact that you have a plan about your finances, and the type of person that you are makes me confident that you know what you're doing. But I can tell you, as a person that doesn't have a very good abstract grasp of finance, that it's sometimes hard for people who don't deal with that kind of thing (which it seems like your mother would be, considering the POV she's advocating.) to understand it.
As for taking Steve to meet them, it seems like it would be all about comfort level. Though I can understand their wanting to meet him, I wouldn't consider it some sort of inalienable right. If it would cause more hurt than help for all involved, I don't advise it. But if you think that they'd behave the same way even now, maybe somehow making it clear to them that they aren't going to meet him unless they're willing to be civil could be in order. They'll have to weigh their desire to meet him against their desire to make things uncomfortable for you. But even that, considering the control aspect of the matter, might not help.
I guess what it all comes down to is that I don't know what the best path should be. But you have my support, for what it's worth. (((((AJ))))) also, (((((Steve)))))
I also wanted to apologize to you, now that I have a chance, Anna. I remember making some unthinking comments or jokes about your family situation while we were all at Kamacon that I don't think you thought were very funny. I still feel bad about it, and I wanted you to know that I didn't mean to hurt or offend you. It's really hard for me to tell where the line is in situations like this, since I am emotionally divorced from them. I have the same problems with my other friends, and I know them a lot better. I'm still sorry about that, I hope you don't think too much worse of me because of it. :/
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Ryuko, you never said anything that hurt my feelings. I'm scratching my head to remember what you said and I honestly can't even remember the incident you are talking about.
I don't take offense easily, and I highly doubt you said anything anywhere near that line, much less over, but thank you for being so compassionate and concerned!
*hugs*
Hearing other people say my family is nuts actually helps me. Because if other rational people think this is rediculous then it means I'm *not* the crazy one (or as crazy <grin>), no matter how much they try to tell me I am.
AJ (and how are the anime curtains working out?)
[ December 23, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
Holy moly!
AJ! I love you!
((((AJ))))
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I love them! I had them hanging up until my OCD roommate was adjusting them and the curtain rod holder fell down. We still haven't found it... :/ Hehehe. Maybe I should ask Res Life for a replacement.
edit: Also, I'm glad you weren't offended. I'm a little bit embarrassed that I was still all worried about it, though.. >_>;;
[ December 23, 2004, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Ryuko ]
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
AJ, they are crazy.
And you can't live your life for your mother, much less lead her life for her. Sometimes people in the midst of terrible situations aren't there for the change. Sometimes they just want you to bear witness.
Hard on you, though, especially with your practical mindset. I think you're a real trouper for hanging in there.
[ December 23, 2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
"But what does it do?" "Nothing that's the beauty of it."
Yeah, Sara you're right. I would be the one *asking* the question. While my definiton of practicality is probably no one else's I am extremely practical in my own way, and I *hate* not being able to "fix things".
Telpy thanks for the hugs.
Ryuko you would have shuddered if you had seen the curtain rod those curtains came on. But the curtains were washed and disinfected before I gave them to you, so they are safe now.
AJ
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
found it...
AJ
Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Hopefully it isn't because of another strike Posted by Rakeesh (Member # 2001) on :
Oh, and I'd just like to add that I wish there was something I can do, and just reading the difficulties you have makes me frustrated with them, so you have my respect for handling it so well-I can only imagine at how much deeper the feelings must go to you living them!
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm going to say it again. You're family's nuts. Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Actually I've been seeing a counsellor, and she asked me what would happen if I said my peice. I remembered this incident with my mother but not in detail... I'm probably going to print this out and give it to her...
AJ
Posted by katharina (Member # 827) on :
Oh gosh - the letters are amazing. Not so much in a good way.
Posted by imenimok (Member # 7679) on :
AJ, check your email later.
If a counselor had asked me that (about my mother), I now know how I would reply: absolutely nothing. She's so deeply rooted in her own delusions, nothing logical can get in.
Posted by Jenny Gardener (Member # 903) on :
AJ, I wish I could hug you and hang out with you more. My family is much the same way. I just don't talk about my beliefs with them at all. And that hurts, because I've always wanted them to know me for who I am, and to like me. But it's not going to happen. I'm okay with that now, I can accept that. I still respect and love my family. But I know that they will never truly get the chance to love me, because there are things they don't really want to know.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
--- Edit: Didn't realize this thread was nearly 6 months old. If it's fixed or something ignore this post. Thx. ---
Advice from me follows:
Sounds like you're locked into a fairly powerful unity of opposites.
A compromise is in order. Your parents are not going to change their lifestyle, and unfortunately their religious beliefs are so interwoven into the fabric of their identities that it is impossible for them not to be hurt that you are not following their path. The hurt is real, but they are also using it to try to manipulate you into doing what they want. That has to be very painful for you. But what you have to understand is that even though it seems like they don't, they love you. They love you more than anything in this world; which is precisely WHY they have this NEED for you to live their way, instead of your way: They are locked into this dogmatic belief that if you don't follow their way, you will be lost. And they don't want to lose you. And they love you so much they are willing to do anything not to lose you, including hurt you with the constant guilt and the barbs and the manipulation. Of course this won't work, but they haven't consciously thought of it as a *plan*. They're doing it without having thought it through to the logical end result: which is that eventually (like, years from now) you will break off all ties with your family to avoid the pain they cause you.
What you have to do is identify some common ground. They are your family, and they want to be part of your life. And you love them, and you want to be part of their lives. That is what you can build upon.
Perhaps you can find the time to visit them soon. If so, take Steve. (This is important.) During this visit, pick your battles. For instance, if you stay with them, they will certainly not want you guys sleeping together. Don't get upset over this. Set it up so Steve gets a little "alone" time with your brother and your Mom and Dad. Whether this is just a trip to the grocery store -- whatever. They all need a chance to form an impression of him. Prepare him for the theological third-degree, but not with negativity. If he is a gentleman, he will treat their beliefs with the respect they deserve. And hopefully he will receive that respect in return.
The ultimate trip of this visit is to come to an agreement with your parents. This cannot happen without conflict; but be wise and understanding and know that their unwavering pig-headedness comes from a place of love. For instance, your Mom was propably crushed, and I mean absolutely devastated, when you told her that you preferred being away from her because you can't get along with her. (This is her interpretation, guaranteed.) The agreement (even if unspoken) you need to get to with your family is this ...
You: Quit pestering me about my lifestyle. I'm not saying I won't ever "come back to God," but if I do, it will be on my own terms in my own time. And if I don't, I need your love anyway. I need you to support my decisions even if you disagree with them. We have some different ideas but you are still my family and I love you. Please make an effort to understand me and appreciate me for what I am, don't guilt-trip me for what I am not.
Them: Don't be afraid of us. We're not saying you have to agree with our beliefs but please respect them and understand that they are part of our lives. Be more forgiving of the mistakes we have made with you. We want you to be more involved with the family. Talk to us. Open up to us. Don't be so shut down and afraid you're going to be hurt when you interact with us. From now on we will focus on the things that make us the same.
Posted by TL (Member # 8124) on :
Uh, wrote that after reading the first page and not realizing this thread was from December.
However it's still good advice as long as you haven't accomplished anything in the last six months
LOL
Posted by Telperion the Silver (Member # 6074) on :
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For me, anyway. I worry sometimes that me being a bit of a bully isn't exactly a healthier situation that him being a bully, but something had to happen to shock us out of the pattern. I haven't done that for a while, but bring it back whenever I get criticized. On the happy side, I haven't been criticized in a while. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
The line about continuing to talk about home equity loans almost had me rolling. Good job staying kind and mature! ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
Both my mother and grandmother do exactly the same thing with my brother and grandfather, and it just kills me. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
) They'd have a heart attack if you become Mormon. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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