The USA currently is the greatest nation on Earth, but it seems to have lost some of it's greatness. Why?
It is due to the average Americans attitude, a lot of Americans expect the US to get everything that it wants from the international community just because Americans are Americans. The US never has, nor ever will get things for this reason. The USA used to get what it wanted because of the common mans ability and willingness to lay down their current life and serve their nations military when it needed them. The common man would have done this patriotic duty regardless of their personal opinions. They believed that maintaining the integrity of our nation was more important than arguing amongst ourselves.
Today many Americans wouldn't even dream of serving a single tour of duty for our armed forces. Some Americans believe that they are too high in the social hierarchy of America to need to risk their lives. Others believe that Bush is the devil incarnate and that he is fighting an unjust war for no other reason than to save the "big business's" money. Then there are those who either aren't up to military caliber physically, or have moral issues with war. Then there are those who serve when needed, and those who would serve if they believed they were needed. Finally there are those who do serve irregardless of the political climate.
Those Americans who believe they "are too good" to serve their nation don't deserve to walk on the soil that countless men and women have given their lives for. Men and women have died to make our nation what it is, both through military service and social revolutions. Those who hate bush for his favor of big business. The truth is, the bread basket of the US elected him in, not the industrialized states. Bush is in Iraq because he felt that Iraq was a potential danger and the US could better the world through it's presence there. For those Americans who aren't up to the physical caliber, get out, play some ball, and don't just shoot a few hoops, exercise is supposed to hurt, the pain is your body adapting to hard work. Those who have moral issues with the military. Americans should respect you for doing what the founders did, standing your ground, but hopefully you have learned to stand your ground while supporting the men and women who are in harms way for you. To those who would serve if they felt that their country needed them. The time has come, troops are being forced to stay in harms way longer than they should have, because of our military's small numbers, you can fix that. Those Americans who serve no matter the political climate, no matter the likely hood of being in harms way, you are the Americans that still resonate the attitudes of our heritage. You know the pain of doing a nations grunt work, the fear the world has towards Americans. You are America's only true diplomats, you help those in need, and defend what our nation stands for.
JT Stryker
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
This means you signed up, I take it?
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
I'm not an American, nor do I hate Americans. But I do laught at them on occasion. See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation. If you said "most powerful", that would be a whole other thing altogether. But greatest? Not to me. Not to a whole lot of other people. And it's that arrogance that causes me to just dismiss that whole argument as futile and silly.
Yeah, go ahead. Claim you're the king of the castle. What does it matter? No one else is playing with you. We're all over here on the monkey bars.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I will not join the military not because I am a coward, it's because I don't believe in wars. I don't think wars are effective. I think they mostly cause more problems then they solve. War is outmoded. Now we have the power to destroy the entire earth with just a press of a button. We can wreck the lives of so many people in just seconds. It's not to say that on some occasions wars are not nessasary. I fail to see, after research, examining the issue, how the war in Iraq was nessasary, especially with the evidence that has been unearthed. We are destroying the lives of these people, that is how I see it and it hurts. This is not what America should be about. We need to change. We need to be about taking care of humanity, looking out for people, not fighting wars with people who we can crush in seconds. I don't think that terrorism is a thing that can be fought with weapons. The problem is people have been trying the same way of doing things and in doing this they have created the climate for terrorism. The more people are oppressed, the angrier they get. The more they use the dirty and horrible tactics of terrorism. There has to be another way. Some sort of alternative. Something that is not as flashy as war, but is actually effective. It hurts knowing that so many soldiers and civilians are dying in this. It hurts that this keeps going on, endlessly. There has to be a better way and I don't think I am unpatriotic for thinking so. I want to live in a country that doesn't just say it's free and wonderful. I want it to live up to its ideals. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
No, I'm one of those Americans with moral issues I'm afraid. I am bound and determined to make a difference some how though. I wrote the original post as an article i submitted for the school news paper in response to a friends dad, who is more or less stuck in Iraq for a few more months then he's supposed to be.
Synestheia- It sounds to me like you fall under the Moral issues catagory too. But what you need to do, is stop thinking of the military as cold calculating killers. They truly are diplomats to the common man over there. They are doing ten times more public service to the Iraqi people then they are harm. The military does calculate every move it makes. The only reason the Iraqi people dislike our soldiers is because we take so much time calculating that we aren't helping them fast enough.
[ December 14, 2004, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
The context (that it's for the school paper) helps a little, I guess... but this sentence:
quote: Today many Americans wouldn't even dream of serving a single tour of duty for our armed forces.
among others, is a little hard to choke down from someone who hasn't and doesn't plan to serve.
quote:The common man would have done this patriotic duty regardless of their personal opinions. They believed that maintaining the integrity of our nation was more important than arguing amongst ourselves.
How are your moral objections different from a personal opinion? Why are these objections more important than maintaining the integrity of our nation? How can you comment on others arguing amongst ourselves when you're not putting your money where you mouth is?
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I think it's more complicated than that. Civilians have died in this. Women and children. If this keeps happening, even the people who supported the war in the beginning to overthrow Saddam Hussein will turn against the US if they begin to see this as an occupation. Not to mention Abu Gharib. There just seems to be so many things about this war that are wrong. It's not unpatriotic to point this out. But, I am biased. I believe war is one of the greatest evils.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Hey, JT, great topic.
quote: For those Americans who aren't up to the physical caliber, get out, play some ball, and don't just shoot a few hoops, exercise is supposed to hurt, the pain is your body adapting to hard work.
Hmmm, exercise as cure is not an option for some problems.
How do you feel about those who serve as non-combant conscientious objectors?
Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
quote:I'm not an American, nor do I hate Americans. But I do laught at them on occasion. See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
I have a Lebanese friend who essentially said the same thing about his country. Every nation has their enthusiastic patriots, and they are common among men of Stryker's age no matter where they're located on the globe.
As Neil Peart wrote in the song Territories:
"We see so many tribes -- overrun and undermined While their invaders dream of lands they've left behind Better people -- better food -- and better beer Why move around the world when Eden was so near?"
It's rare when people don't think the country they were born and raised in is the bestestest.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I came very close to putting my money where my mouth is, but due to my lack of the mental capability to end another human life.
The difference between moral issues and personal opinions is quite simply. By saying, "I can't live with myself if I end a human life." I'm having a moral problem with war. If I said, "This war is wrong because in 20/20 hindsight we didn't know enough to decide a course of action." is a personal opinion. Moral issues do not take away from your support of those who do serve, but some personal opinions do.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Let me also add that I believe in supporting soldiers by giving them the tools they need to complete their mission. And that when they return home they shouldn't have their benefits cut or limited. They need support in and out of the war. But, I don't believe in wars... I believe that war is morally wrong.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
You do not need an army to be a great country.
Posted by HollowEarth (Member # 2586) on :
quote:Civilians have died in this. Women and children.
Riiiight. Sure. Good to know that all of the men are expendable. And that just like the 1000th American casualty was a greater tragedy than the first 999, every death of women or child is worse than the death of one of the arrogent oppressive men.
Guess what, men can't dodge bullets.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Ralphie - you make a great point.
I'm that unusual one, then. I don't think Canada is the greatest nation in the world. It has a lot of problems. I think it's got a lot of good things going for it, and it's definitely better than arrogant USA, but the greatest? No. I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
But then, I have high standards for what I'll call great. And at this point in time in history, I don't believe there is a single country in this world that I would classify as GREAT.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
*Growls* It's tragic when soldiers die too! Young men who have families, connections and it's all gone because of this war! When people go to war they should make damn sure that it's worth losing anyone's life over!
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: How do you feel about those who serve as non-combant conscientious objectors?
I feel that they are doing their duty, they are standing for what they believe in and still supporting those in harms way. I would have tried to be a non-combatant, but I'm afraid i'd end up like the photographer in WE WERE SOLDIERS, and i'd never be able to live with myself.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
If I'm on Parliament Hill on Canada Day and someone with a news Camera asks me how I feel about Canada, that's what I'm going to say.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote:The difference between moral issues and personal opinions is quite simply. By saying, "I can't live with myself if I end a human life." I'm having a moral problem with war.
Is this unqualified? You wouldn't join the military if we were subject to an actual physical invasion? If you personally were attacked and one of the attackers dropped a gun, you wouldn't pick it up and shoot at another attacker pointing a gun at you? How about to defend your family?
I know I'm being difficult, but what I'm trying to ask is are you saying you can't live with yourself if you end a human life, period, and would rather die, or you can't live with yourself if you end a human life by following orders after having put yourself in a situation where there's a good possibility it will happen.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that, mind you. But I think if that's what you're saying, you shouldn't be critizing people who are saying "I think there are things I would fight for, and this is not one of them."
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Oh, and:
quote:I am bound and determined to make a difference some how though.
How about joining Americorp? That's a nice, peaceful alternative that will allow you to do some good.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
I'm saying that if i were to take a human life I would sink into a deep depression and more than lily reason a life for a life. In the heat of the moment yes i would kill, but I would not be able to function as a normal human being once i realized what i'd done.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote:I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
JT, you can argue about it all you like - that's your choice. But I'm still of the opinion that that greatness is only in the eyes of Americans, past tense or present. I've never considered the US to be a great nation, and the way things are going, likely never will. And one of the things that irritates me the most about Americans and their attitudes towards their "Great Nation" is their arrogance, their self-centredness, their egocentricities. The sheer inability to see anything beyond themselves. Of course I'm talking about the nation as a whole and not every single individual, but that was your argument - about the nation. But whatever. Go ahead and believe whatever you like. Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
Quib. That is another thing that is wrong with alot of Americans. But that one is alot harder to fix than my issues with them...
Oh, and i've never herd of Americorps before, but there web site seems promising...
[ December 14, 2004, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
I was in Americorps I wish I was back in it. There I made more than I make now and I was helping children. If the country really wants to be great they would- Do more about poverty. It makes no sense that this is one of the richest nations and yet children still starve here or have inadequet education. Saying that the country is great doesn't make it so. Back in the days of segregation so many people talked about fighting for freedom in Vietnam when so many people did not have equal rights! I DESPISE hypocrasy!
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
J T, I suspect you either under- or over- estimate yourself, but I'm not sure which to call it. Humans are amazingly adaptable suckers. I don't know you, maybe you really are that sensitive.
Although I would never be happy about the idea of taking another human life (I feel bad enough about killing mice) there are things I would kill for, and things I would die for. This war does not encompass them.
To me, in my opinion, your milage may vary, it takes more integrity to say "This war is not right" and protest it than to say "I'm not mentally suited for war so I'm going to sit this out, but everyone else who doesn't have my little hang-ups should go." I'm not saying I personally fall in the first category... I do not actively protest the war, and in a lot of ways I'm pretty apathetic. But I don't go spouting off about how noble it is and how great our country is or could be, either.
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
quote:I agree with you quib. There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history. But the US was for a while arguably a great nation and I'm implying that it could still be...
When was this period, and would you mind outlining a few of the traits the US had during this period?
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
"Could never live with myself if I killed another human"? Well, in the first place, how do you know? Tried it, have you? In the second place, what comrade ElJay says is spot on. Humans are not only adaptable, we're also aggressive and good at rationalising. Men have killed men, women and children throughout history, and slept soundly afterwards. What makes you different? In all honesty, your statement strikes me as rather conceited. I am reminded of Asquith's daughter in 1915, recording in her diary that no-one in the lower classes could suffer as she did, they just didn't have the capacity for it. This at a time when men were dying by the thousands in the trenches.
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
Edited 'cause I thought better of it.
[ December 14, 2004, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: The USA currently is the greatest nation on Earth
quote: There is no nation that i'd consider to be great at this point in history.
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
ElJay: I would mind continuing this conversation via IM or E-mail
The Era I was referring to would be post WWI, during the booming 20's. I'm headed to bed now, but I'll elaborate more on the era later.
Greatest is of all the current nations. I do not think that the US is great as Rome once was.
[ December 14, 2004, 11:49 PM: Message edited by: J T Stryker ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Wow, sorry I arrived so late now I have a great deal of nonsense to shake about. This is going to take a bit of time. Sigh...
quote: It is due to the average Americans attitude, a lot of Americans expect the US to get everything that it wants from the international community just because Americans are Americans. The US never has, nor ever will get things for this reason. The USA used to get what it wanted because of the common mans ability and willingness to lay down their current life and serve their nations military when it needed them.
The USA became great for many reasons, but primarily it is our unique, yes I say unique! value of freedom, personal freedom perfectly balanced by personal responsibility. Part of this is indeed the personal choice to fight for freedom, but much of our greatness is the results of the many times many paths that people have followed in their personal freedom. Paths that have lead to wealth and prosperity and conquest of the entire vast area of the USA. Freedom to think and read, and build and marry. All these provide the world that is even worth fighting for.
quote: See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant.
quote: I don't think wars are effective. I think they mostly cause more problems then they solve.
War is the most effective way of creating social change ever conceived. In every measure of success the ability to beat your enemies into submission is number one.
quote: War is outmoded.
Out of fashion? Out of style, classics never go out of style. Being dead is the ultimate price, making the price high means making the conflict life and death.
quote: Now we have the power to destroy the entire earth with just a press of a button. We can wreck the lives of so many people in just seconds.
Half true, we can wreck our lives pretty well, but the Earth would barely notice. It is provincial to think so.
quote: We need to be about taking care of humanity, looking out for people, not fighting wars with people who we can crush in seconds.
We could Nuke the world in seconds but that is hardly an option, what justification do we have for it. Without that we are left with conventional military action. At that the rest of the world is much more even with us. Falluja was a marriage of skill and brilliance that cannot be given enough credit.
quote: I don't think that terrorism is a thing that can be fought with weapons.
Weapons can kill terrorists, dead terrorist are no longer terrorists who can commit terrorism!
quote:The problem is people have been trying the same way of doing things and in doing this they have created the climate for terrorism.
Yes they have, but who has created it? US? née! The climate is created by those with wealth and power in the Middle East. Those with privilege and power horde their wealth and point to us as scapegoats. We are the most generous nation on Earth, we have literally poured money into the Middle East in exchange for what was buried goo to the tribes that were there, money that could make every man woman and child in the region comfortable and help them live a life of opportunities. Instead one of a hundred sons of some Prince has enough wealth to personally buy a country to fight us from. They point to us and send the mob to keep the mob from counting their swiss bank accounts.
quote: The more people are oppressed, the angrier they get. The more they use the dirty and horrible tactics of terrorism. There has to be another way. Some sort of alternative. Something that is not as flashy as war, but is actually effective.
There is, it is called making democratic capitalist governments, holding them in place until they function and people get a taste of freedom, the thing that makes us great, and then remaining friends with them.
quote: It hurts knowing that so many soldiers and civilians are dying in this. It hurts that this keeps going on, endlessly.
Your mistake is the word endlessly, your perspective may make five years endless, to history it is a single chapter.
quote: There has to be a better way and I don't think I am unpatriotic for thinking so.
When you discover it, let everybody know, until then we should use the best we have.
quote: I want to live in a country that doesn't just say it's free and wonderful. I want it to live up to its ideals.
part of living up to ideals is trusting that they are universal, we are acting on our faith in freedom to make a better world, I would call that living our ideals.
quote: I'm that unusual one, then. I don't think Canada is the greatest nation in the world. It has a lot of problems. I think it's got a lot of good things going for it, and it's definitely better than arrogant USA, but the greatest? No. I think it's merely pretty good with reservations.
The only reason Canada is not a part of the US is that we do not want it. Half of Canada services us and the other half comes from us. It is something between our wife and our mistress, perhaps our whore would be the best analogy. But it is a great one!
quote: I'm saying that if i were to take a human life I would sink into a deep depression and more than lily reason a life for a life. In the heat of the moment yes i would kill, but I would not be able to function as a normal human being once i realized what i'd done.
You might think so but the odds are good that you would go on and not be much changed. It is certain that you descend from killers and have it in you.
That is enough for now. Please carry on.
BC
[ December 15, 2004, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Bean Counter ]
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
JK Striper, this is your new name until you can figure out how to spell mine properly.
Posted by rivka (Member # 4859) on :
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Sorry about the partial initial post, hit the wrong button.
BC
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
quote: The only reason Canada is not a part of the US is that we do not want it. Half of Canada services us and the other half comes from us. It is something between our wife and our mistress, perhaps our whore would be the best analogy. But it is a great one!
Pretend there are about 50 more of that smiley along with it.
[ December 15, 2004, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Rappin' Ronnie Reagan ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Those who hate bush for his favor of big business. The truth is, the bread basket of the US elected him in, not the industrialized states."
JT, I'm afraid you're committing a number of logical errors, here.
Your point in bringing up any opposition to Bush is to cast those people who would not support this war as opponents of Bush and his policies. You then casually dismiss their opposition by pretending as if their dislike of the man is rooted only in his big business background -- and then point out that the "breadbasket" of the country, rather than the industrialized states, elected him, as if this somehow disproves his big business connections and removes any reason for people to dislike Bush (and therefore to dislike this war).
That's five separate straw men in the space of two sentences.
I understand that you feel the need to do the "us vs. them" thing. But perhaps you should attempt to understand the "them" a bit better before you start generalizing about 'em.
Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
I think that we have lost a sense of unity, community, and that extends to our dignity as individuals and our quality of life. It's one thing when a draft is unreasonable, but there is a segment of the population who is even opposed to paying taxes for the war, and that's a little disturbing. Forget duty and responsibility, what kind of relationship do we have with each other? I don't know what great means, but I wouldn't mind a nation of a people who cared for each other.
[ December 15, 2004, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Hate to agree with Tom, he doesn't need the stroking, but we have factories in the midwest, and if you want to pit industry against agriculture you need to go back to the Civil War.
The core of your argument is much on my mind though, something the Marquis De Sade is supposed to have said, that a perversion, practiced dillegently becomes normal, then needful, so that much of the difference between the Rural and Urban to me seems to be related to a different set of normal experiences. One that from my point of view is the normalization and defense of much that is perverse and destructive in the Urban areas.
BC
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
quote: It's one thing when a draft is unreasonable
It is not so much unreasonable as unworkable, the current law and rules of conduct in training soldiers would not work for drafties. Right now all a soldier has to do is refuse to train, and all that they can do is yell at him. Not too hard to bare really.
BC
Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
quote: ElJay: I would mind continuing this conversation via IM or E-mail
I'm assuming you meant wouldn't mind, if I'm wrong, please disregard the following.
Actually, I'm going to be mostly away from the internet for the next 5 days or so, so I will have to forgo the pleasure. But I do want to tell you that the post that I edited out was mostly just to make a smart-a** response to KoM. I see these things that I think are funny, and type before I think. Bad habit. I hit edit as soon as the post came up because up until that point I was trying to seriously respond to your posts, and switching to cheap humor in the middle didn't seem the way to go.
Anyway, if you're serious about wanting to make a difference, I do hope you consider Americorp or some other sort of service work for a year or two between high school and college. It sounds to me that you're looking for a rite-of-passage type experience, and if you try to wait until after college there will be a lot of pressure on you to jump right in to the labor market and the "real world," and it will be a lot harder to take some time off for some sort of service work at that point. Plus, you'll have the added benefit that random strangers will take you more seriously on internet message boards if you have some sacrifice of your own behind your words exhorting others. Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
quote: quote: See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation.
This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant.
Then I guess I must be pretty ignorant. Thank you, B. C., for pointing out what an idiot I must be because I have a different opinion than you do. Because of course, your opinion matters more than anyone else's. {/sarcasm}
Yes, some people want to be in the US. But many other countries also have people clamoring to get in. Then there are a great many who leave the US voluntarily, including all your American expats. If you think that it's that people want what you have - homeless people; people living in poverty; people addicted to drugs, alcohol, whatever; people with no medical care; people with dead end jobs; high taxes; high cost of living - just to start the list - then you're mistaking the perception with the reality. The US is not the land of milk and honey. It's perceived - by some, not all - as the land of milk and honey, sure, but there is a huge difference between that perception and reality.
As for the US being in the front stage of world politics - that doesn't make the US great. That makes the US powerful. And again, there's a huge difference between the two. Has it not occurred to you that the US, in this situation, is also seen by many as a bully? Does that make the US great? Not really. Powerful, sure. But great? Huge difference there. And not everyone want to be prominent in world affairs. Again, for you to assume that what you perceive yourself to have is what everyone else wants is a delusion.
If the only argument - and yes, I would call this an argument from you, not a discussion - you can give is "Every intelligent person knows that . . ." or "you are incredibly ignorant to believe. . ." then all you have is a weak argument at best.
I'm not so ignorant or so weak to believe what you say simply because you say it. Nor am I ignorant enough to change my opinion just because you yell the loudest.
Guess what? Other people in the world don't always agree with Americans. Shocking, isn't it?
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
quid
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
You know, as a non-American, I didn't really think the USA was the greatest country in the world.
But now I've read BeanCounter's post and boy was I wrong. Packing my bags and waiting for my green card as I type.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
And in the alternative, non-snarky version of the post above: Yeah, what quidscribis said.
BC I am not sure if you honestly believe what you typed. If you do than I suggest you sign up for a LOT of travelling in the next couple of years. Go to different countries (both developed and developing), mix with a heap of different people and try to understand what they really think, not what you think they do.
I would suggest that your opinion of how the rest of the world thinks about your nation would change slightly if you actually experienced it.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
*gack*
I just can't leave this alone.
quote: The USA became great for many reasons, but primarily it is our unique, yes I say unique! value of freedom, personal freedom perfectly balanced by personal responsibility
Bean Counter, there are plenty of countries who share these values. I would suggest there at some who, at this point in time, have the balance better than the US does.
***
The thing is, I *know* that most (I'd say pretty much all) American Hatrackers don't think like this. I *know* BC is either completely ignorant or fishing for a reaction (or maybe a mixture of both). But the attitude still riles me.
Hmmmph. I think I'll go join quidscribis on the monkey bars. I'll be hanging upside down if you need me.
Posted by Anna (Member # 2582) on :
What Quid and Imogen said. Yep. A lot of people have the will to live in France too, and it's not the best country at all. *sigh* *rejoins Imogen and Quidscribis on the monkey bars*
[ December 15, 2004, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Anna ]
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
Yes ! Welcome to France ! All who love freedom : expression freedom, opinion freedom, life freedom !! All people is welcome !
Excuse-me, I am a little too patriot, like you JT. About Bush, he isn't the devil. Because he is a man like you or me. He just looks Fox news too.
No, i am French and i like Americans for all they give to me. But as friend, I want to show you your error because you are too quick to act. I want just help you to go back for a step to look the global situation. This is not a will to make bad.
Boy ! A banana coktail please ! Posted by Eduardo_Sauron (Member # 5827) on :
quote: There is, it is called making democratic capitalist governments, holding them in place until they function and people get a taste of freedom, the thing that makes us great, and then remaining friends with them.
Hehe...I usually stay away from such threads, being a poor 3rd world denizen...but I found this, written by Bean counter, amusing. Why? Because I live in a country who was once on the other side of the stick. Because of policies like that, we had a brutal U.S. supported military dictatorship for 20 years. Way to go. Get over it. Many people here in Brazil resent your country because of it. Different times, maybe...but the thought pattern leading to such measures is still there.
Posted by ae (Member # 3291) on :
quote:To me, in my opinion, your milage may vary, it takes more integrity to say "This war is not right" and protest it than to say "I'm not mentally suited for war so I'm going to sit this out, but everyone else who doesn't have my little hang-ups should go."
Okay, how is it Stryker gets away with not addressing this killing point? I mean really, if the response to this belongs on AIM or in email, so does the original post on this topic.
Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
As an aside, this may be immoral and unpatriotic, but I'd much rather be alive than dead. I'm not sure if there is anything I'd fight in a war for. I also don't think I should serve my nation in any way. My family - yes. Nation? No.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
quote: If you think that it's that people want what you have - homeless people;
The number of American homeless is the most wildly exaggerated number in statistics, at the most one tenth of the number claimed most often can be found, and of those 90% are misclassified since they are mentally ill.
quote: people living in poverty;
The poverty line is an arbitrary and virtually meaningless number. People below it have more opportunities for school and health care then many just above it. Hard to feel sorry for them. A Sergent in the Army with a wife and three kids used to qualify for food stamps under Clinton.
quote:people addicted to drugs, alcohol, whatever;
There are fewer problems with this in the US then in Europe, in my experiences there this was a huge issue that people just lived with, a medicated society. In Asia and the Middle East of course drugs are also more prominent.
quote:people with no medical care; people with dead end jobs; high taxes; high cost of living - just to start the list
There is ample medical care in the United States, it just is expensive, what you mean to say is people who cannot afford routine medical care, since emergency medical care is automatic regardless of ability to pay.
Dead end job? We have more jobs here then any other country in the world! I do not know what makes you think they are dead ends, quit and find another, get a degree and get promoted. We have the most mobile workforce in the world!
Or income taxes are much less then those in Europe! All that socialism cost! Same with Canada! As for the cost of living, it varies wildly from place to place but is less then Japan, and Europe in general, except Eastern Europe of course since we have a much less dense population.
quote:then you're mistaking the perception with the reality. The US is not the land of milk and honey. It's perceived - by some, not all - as the land of milk and honey, sure, but there is a huge difference between that perception and reality.
Actually it is you who have mistaken the left wing media hype for reality. Hollywood loves to make us the villain, but it is simply the truth that they lie. Bad science (Day after Tomorrow) Bad Statistics (3,000,000 Homeless) and Bad History (Alexander!) all lay out a Hollywood and media agenda to push America toward socialism like all the joyous people in Europe and the Happy Russians. It is an elitist view shared by a few who, like much of the world, spout lip service to freedom and then increase government control on every aspect of life (for the good of the people). They value freedom to agree with their beliefs. Unfortunately you are not totally at fault, the foreign media is much more saturated by and in agreement with this group then our media here, we have a massive alternative media structure to compete with them. Hence their fall from power and favor.
This is why it is such a surprise overseas that Bush won, we over here have the full set of facts to push around! They just had CNN!
We have plenty of Milk and Honey!
Oh and about Brazil! Is it not bigger then the US? You have at least as many resources as we do, traditions dating back at least a century further and a vast number of people, you are saying that we push you around?
If you do not like your government blame your own Spanish land grant traditions and the Pope for giving you to Portugal, we just keep Imperialists out, what you do to yourselves is up to you, sorry but you are a big country time to act like it!
BC
[ December 15, 2004, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Bean Counter ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
The men who fought and died for the freedom of this country did so because they had to. I would never dreaming of volunteering for the military because I don't have to and have no reason to - there is no threat that merits me putting my life on the line.
Instead, the military is used by our government in such a way that it increases the chances of our freedom being lost and our security being compromised. Thus, aside from just selfish reasons, I think taking part in it would be unethical right now.
The only truly American responsibility to the nation is the responsibility to be a good citizen. That means obeying the law in word and spirit and taking part in democracy. If there is something that really harms the nation today it is that people do not do this - they pay little effort to partaking in democracy. They do not inform themselves about issues and they do not work to ensure we have a wise government. This is the true American heritage, and this is what is being lost - because it is Americans themselves that dictate the future of our nation, not our military.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
quote: Or income taxes are much less then those in Europe! All that socialism cost! Same with Canada! As for the cost of living, it varies wildly from place to place but is less then Japan, and Europe in general, except Eastern Europe of course since we have a much less dense population.
That's right. In France, we have a lot of taxes but it's not the socialism. It's our willness to help the poor people. Without that, I couldn't be Engineer from one of the best school in Europ, because i was too poor to pay the price of such a school (I had a social state financial help). And with this taxes, we have a totally free health system. This two things are just an exemple but we have other things. And know I welly earn my life with a good job, I am happy to return to the society a part of she has given to me.
I comment the next in []
quote: Actually it is you who have mistaken the left wing media hype for reality. Hollywood loves to make us the villain [Independence day, Armageddon, National treasure... I can quote many movies too ], but it is simply the truth that they lie. Bad science (Day after Tomorrow) [it concern all the world, not only USA.] Bad Statistics (3,000,000 Homeless) [this is a wrong number : it's more, because of restrictions of studies.]and Bad History (Alexander!) [Here is not your history ] all lay out a Hollywood and media agenda to push America toward socialism like all the joyous people in Europe [Yes, I am happy. And glad. And i love my country. A lot.] and the Happy Russians
Let me laugh ! What wonderful a priori you have. Just another point : The criminality rate in Western Europ or Canada, or Japan, is very very very lower than USA's criminality rate. Why ?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Yes ! Welcome to France ! All who love freedom : expression freedom, opinion freedom, life freedom !!
Except the freedom to where clothing that denotes ones religion, right?
I forgot, that's not a real freedom, is it?
quote:And one of the things that irritates me the most about Americans and their attitudes towards their "Great Nation" is their arrogance, their self-centredness, their egocentricities.
So you don't like BC calling you ignorant. He probably doesn't like being called arrogant, self-centered, and egocentric.
Dagonee
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Without that, I couldn't be Engineer from one of the best school in Europ, because i was too poor to pay the price of such a school (I had a social state financial help).
There's TONS of state and federal financial aid. It's clear that for all America's supposed self-centeredness, you don't know more about what really goes on in America than many Americans know about what goes on in France.
Dagonee
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
That other countries have problems doesn't make the US great. Of course other countries have problems. Where's the news in that? But so does the US. You seem to both acknowledge that and dismiss it utterly in the same sentence. And whether or not certain statistics have been exaggerated - since you didn't quote any in the first place, or prove that any were exaggerated in the second - how is that relevant? Have you said anything at all that has any merit? Nah. It's all sound and fury, signifying nothing.
Egocentricity bores me. Posted by Fahim (Member # 5482) on :
quote: The number of American homeless is the most wildly exaggerated number in statistics, at the most one tenth of the number claimed most often can be found, and of those 90% are misclassified since they are mentally ill.
So there are more mentally ill people in the US than there are homeless people - sounds about right to me
quote: The poverty line is an arbitrary and virtually meaningless number. People below it have more opportunities for school and health care then many just above it. Hard to feel sorry for them. A Sergent in the Army with a wife and three kids used to qualify for food stamps under Clinton.
The poverty line is always arbitrary and totally meaningless when you aren't the one who's poor - either you have really rotten army pay or you have a lot of poor people in the US
quote: quote:people addicted to drugs, alcohol, whatever;
There are fewer problems with this in the US then in Europe, in my experiences there this was a huge issue that people just lived with, a medicated society. In Asia and the Middle East of course drugs are also more prominent.
Of course, just because *you* say that you have fewer problems with drug addiction and that Europe has more (of course, those bohemian Europeans with their snooty ideas of socialism and what not have to be poor </sarcasm>), that immediately makes the fact true ... I believe you
quote: There is ample medical care in the United States, it just is expensive, what you mean to say is people who cannot afford routine medical care
Of course, what with the poverty line being arbitray and all, I'm sure that you can adjust for the expensive medical care in an arbitrary manner, right? And that ESP where you know what somebody else meant to say must come in pretty handy in treating illnesses
quote: Dead end job? We have more jobs here then any other country in the world!
Of course you do! You have so many that you lay off people and re-hire them so that you can keep on filling all those endless jobs that you've got
quote: get a degree and get promoted.
Considering that you have to hire IT workers from outside since most of your people are dropping out of school, let alone graduating, that should be what you are aiming for - good for you!
quote: We have the most mobile workforce in the world!
They are so mobile that they get a job, get laid off and have to go find another job a couple of days later
quote: Or income taxes are much less then those in Europe! All that socialism cost!
Ah, yes, as long as we keep our income tax lower than those Europeans and crummy commies, we're fine right? Isn't it always a numbers game anyway? What's with this socialism hang up anyway? I thought McCarthy was dead?
quote: except Eastern Europe of course since we have a much less dense population.
Oh I beg to differ, I've found a lot of Americans to be very dense - present company excluded of course
quote: Actually it is you who have mistaken the left wing media hype for reality. Hollywood loves to make us the villain, but it is simply the truth that they lie. Bad science (Day after Tomorrow) Bad Statistics (3,000,000 Homeless) and Bad History (Alexander!)
Oh how philosophical. America must be the greatest nation on earth after all - because you've just proven that your own movie industry is so great at bungling stuff up ... according to you that is. I haven't yet seen "Alexander" and so don't know what the bad history stuff is about - unless of course you mean that somebody besides an American conquering most of the known world is historically inaccurate
But all kidding aside, a citizen of a nation saying that his nation is the greatest does not make it so - it is when people of other nations say that a nation is the greatest nation that it actually becomes truth. Till then, it is all mere idle boasting and chest beating ...
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
I am just astounded at this thread. It looks so fun and lively. I would like to add my tow cents.
First.
quote:a lot of Americans expect the US to get everything that it wants from the international community just because Americans are Americans.
quote:The USA used to get what it wanted because of the common mans ability and willingness to lay down their current life and serve their nations military when it needed them.
I don't mean to be personal or mean, but that has got to be one of the worst articles (even for a school paper) I have ever read.
Am I to understand that your argument is that if Americans want to get everything they want from the international community, they need to join the military?
You argument is further invalidated by
quote:I came very close to putting my money where my mouth is, but due to my lack of the mental capability to end another human life.
and
quote: but I'm afraid i'd end up like the photographer in WE WERE SOLDIERS, and i'd never be able to live with myself.
There are at least four prices of war:
Getting Killed
Getting Wounded
Emotional Trauma of Seeing Comrades Killed
Emotional Trauma of Killing Someone--Particularly a Civilian
If you can not pay the price of War, then the war is not justified, or at the very least, you have no right to egg other people to join the ranks. It seems weak and selfish. As For BC.... I think America is great--Hell, I have a romantic view of America enough to think it is one of the greatest nations. I live in an affluent Mormon community and understand I do not appreciate the full spectrum of America's problems. I am happy, and that is enough for me.
quote: Actually it is you who have mistaken the left wing media hype for reality. Hollywood loves to make us the villain, but it is simply the truth that they lie. Bad science (Day after Tomorrow) Bad Statistics (3,000,000 Homeless) and Bad History (Alexander!) all lay out a Hollywood and media agenda to push America toward socialism like all the joyous people in Europe and the Happy Russians.
That just reeks of Rush Limbaugh. You can be proud of your country, but if you are using talk radio as your source of information and encouragement, and you parrot their words to talk down to anyone who is different and they *respond,* please don't use that experience as ammunition for your persecution complex.
Of course, I have ASS-U-ME-d that is what you are doing. I could be very wrong, in which case, I have shown my weakness that I think I have a skill at understanding context behind communication. I get called on it all the time.
[ December 15, 2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by Xaposert (Member # 1612) on :
quote:There are at least four prices of war:
Getting Killed Getting Wounded Emotional Trauma of Seeing Comrades Killed Emotional Trauma of Killing Someone--Particularly a Civilian
You've forgotten the most important costs: The moral costs of killing or wounding someone.
Posted by Choobak (Member # 7083) on :
about the low on clothes, I would like to explain the point of view of the french government.
Before, i am born in a bad suburb near Paris. many of my friends are muslim and want such a law. Why ? Because islamic scarf is a way for integrist muslim to reduce the freedom of girls in their familly. In school, I saw a "big brother" hit his sister because she untied his scarf for sport ! What must we do ? nothing ?
Another point is since 1905 and the law of separation between state and church, school are "laïque" (without religion or just in History to explain all religions). So, this law try to respect the 1905 law and want to protect this girl.
Moreover, the application of this law is just in public school (financed by the state) : out of school, Muslim girls may freedomly tie their scarf.
Currently, majority of them respect this law without problem.
And you must understand this law is same for ALL religions
Posted by lem (Member # 6914) on :
quote: You've forgotten the most important costs: The moral costs of killing or wounding someone.
You are right, that is the most important one.
I should have been more clear. I lumped it with "Emotional Trauma of Killing Someone--Particularly a Civilian," but on hindsight, it is qualitatively different and deserves special consideration.
That was ignorant of me. Thanks for pointing it out.
[ December 15, 2004, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: lem ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:about the low on clothes, I would like to explain the point of view of the french government.
Before, i am born in a bad suburb near Paris. many of my friends are muslim and want such a law. Why ? Because islamic scarf is a way for integrist muslim to reduce the freedom of girls in their familly. In school, I saw a "big brother" hit his sister because she untied his scarf for sport ! What must we do ? nothing ?
Another point is since 1905 and the law of separation between state and church, school are "laïque" (without religion or just in History to explain all religions). So, this law try to respect the 1905 law and want to protect this girl.
Moreover, the application of this law is just in public school (financed by the state) : out of school, Muslim girls may freedomly tie their scarf.
Currently, majority of them respect this law without problem.
And you must understand this law is same for ALL religions
Here's my problem with that analysis. The state has decided to provide a lot of services. The state taxes the populace extensively to provide those services. That is fine - I might disagree with the exact ratios of taxes and services, but this is how France has chosen to run itself.
However, the choice to do that has made it impossible or very very costly for many people to acquire those services privately, both because of the reduced market for those services (because most people can get them free) and because the higher taxes leave a lesser percentage of income available to acquire them.
Again, this is fine, as it expresses the will of the people of France.
What is problematic is that these benefits are denied to certain people based on their unwillingness to flout their religious beliefs. The government, having created a situation where obtaining a service is difficult, are then using the fact that they are providing that service as a reason to interfere with religious practice that hurts no one.
As for the opression of girls theory, those facts are more likely to result in parents removing their children from school than in unoppressing the children.
Dagonee
Posted by Danzig avoiding landmarks (Member # 6792) on :
I have two reasons to not sign up. One, I am a coward.
More importantly, I will never serve a country that wants to put me in jail for following one of the principles in its own Declaration of Independence. Most of the year I am just an unwanted drain on society, except April 15th and whenever you need someone to die or kill for you. Fück that shit. When I can buy alcohol legally, when I can buy opium legally, when I can drink in public, inject in public, snort lines in public, and smoke outside, when I can run my own opium den, then I will have a reason to sign up. Not before. I have better things to do than die and kill so that your vision of the world you want your kids (and everyone else's kids, and everyone else) can be a little closer to reality.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
BC. You do not understand that it is not that simple. I graduated from college and I am STILL stuck in a dead end job. I have no car, no license, I don't make enough money to get a car. I am basically stuck. These days the best way to get a job is to know someone that can hook you up with a better one. Plus just about every job I look for requires more experience than I have. It's really not that easy...
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Wow.
This whole thread deserves this:
One poster is half of the ignorant obnoxiousness in this thread all by himself, but there is plenty of it to go around, on both sides.
This thread makes me ashamed of Hatrack.
Posted by Architraz Warden (Member # 4285) on :
Thank you Icarus.
Feyd Baron, DoC
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
I see Count Bean is up to his old tricks, claiming that anyone who disagrees with him is ignorant.
quote:See, it's only in the eyes of Americans that American is the greatest nation. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is utter bland stupidity. Not even spectacular stupidity, if you do not think people want to be here, to have what we have, to be as prominent in world affairs as we are, you are simply ignorant
US prominence in world affairs is not as great as it once was. China, Japan and the EU have all tried to upstage us to some extent.There is a huge difference between power and greatness. Just because we are have the most powerful nuclear arsenal and military doesn't make us great. Nor does having desperate Mexicans and S. Americans cross the border looking for work mean we are great--we just have more jobs that pay more than 3rd world countries. So what? So does the rest of the indusrialized world, immigrants looking for work are common.
quote:
The USA became great for many reasons, but primarily it is our unique, yes I say unique! value of freedom, personal freedom perfectly balanced by personal responsibility. Part of this is indeed the personal choice to fight for freedom, but much of our greatness is the results of the many times many paths that people have followed in their personal freedom. Paths that have lead to wealth and prosperity and conquest of the entire vast area of the USA. Freedom to think and read, and build and marry.
Unless you're an American Indian. They were either killed or their past and current paths were crushed to pave the way for America's glory during the "conquest of the entire vast area of the USA." Hardly a ringing endorsement of American personal freedoms and paths to prosperity. Or if you're gay, Americans have recently said resoundingly they have no freedom to marry. Our freedoms are hardly unique--many people enjoy more civil and political liberties than Americans.
quote: The number of American homeless is the most wildly exaggerated number in statistics, at the most one tenth of the number claimed most often can be found, and of those 90% are misclassified since they are mentally ill.
Homeless advocates would agree that many homeless are mentally ill. But it's not mutually exclusive--one can be both, you don't get a scarlet 'H' for homeless or a 'M' for mentally ill. There is no misclassifaction.
quote: The poverty line is an arbitrary and virtually meaningless number. People below it have more opportunities for school and health care then many just above it. Hard to feel sorry for them. A Sergent in the Army with a wife and three kids used to qualify for food stamps under Clinton.
Any income level is arbitrary and subjective to some extent. That doesn't make it meaningless. Are we to believe that there are no poor? I suspect you have rarely felt any empathy for anyone. And soldiers' families continue to qualify and get food stamps under Bush. Is this wrong somehow? Should the practice stop? What's your point?
quote: Oh and about Brazil! Is it not bigger then the US? You have at least as many resources as we do, traditions dating back at least a century further and a vast number of people, you are saying that we push you around?
If you do not like your government blame your own Spanish land grant traditions and the Pope for giving you to Portugal, we just keep Imperialists out, what you do to yourselves is up to you, sorry but you are a big country time to act like it!
The US has a long tradition of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries, especially in Central and South America. It's a lie to say "we just keep Imperialists out, what you do to yourselves is up to you," and it's churlish to tell them to shut up and "act like a big country." So should Brazil aid a military coup in America as we did in Argentine in 1973?
[ December 15, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Only half?
France, France used to be significant in the world, it used to have an empire and imperial ambition. At its height it wanted to rule all of Europe and then the world, creating one language and religion bending every conner of the world to its will.
We have no imperial ambition. Could we conquer Mexico? Yes, Canada? Yes, could we have kept Japan? Yes, The Philippines? Yes... Yet the French want to lecture us from cowardice masked as the moral high ground... fagh!
Do we begrudge the EU its success? Not at all, we are happy to see the source of the last two great world wars to tangled up together to try to exterminate each other.
What is our arrogance? A willingness to believe that what is true and right for us is true and right for all men? A belief that freedom is better then anything else for men and that it is the inheritance of all mankind that will deliver us into the best of all possible worlds?
Frankly I find it amusing that their is not a single country that would like to see our power in the hands of any country but us. Except themselves. That makes it simple jealousy. God help us if smoldering French resentment or smothered Hun ambition or Russian incompetence or Chinese ruthlessness or Middle Eastern fanaticism were married to our power, thank God that if they do get that power, we remain in place to check it!
BC
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
What jingoistic BS.
[ December 15, 2004, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Morbo ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
No country with the Gracie family and so many hot scantily clad babes needs to whine about what the United States does! Brazil has so many hot chicks!
BC
Posted by King of Men (Member # 6684) on :
Why the devil would anyone want to conquer Mexico? You got the good bit in 1848. As for Japan, certainly you could have continued to occupy it, but extracting any money? I think not.
The thing about US 'non-imperialism' is that it doesn't need to be, it was so aggressive in the ninetennth century that any further territory gains would be useless.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"We have no imperial ambition."
*polite cough*
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Free and Common Sockage would do Mexico so much good that it would become quite nice, its a fixer upper. As for getting money out of Japan, I think the Japanese are people who shine whatever the circumstances. The greatest followers in the world! They would have made wonderful Americans, they are good at whatever they set there minds too.
I think at times they feel insulted that we did not want them. Kinda like beating up the bully and then not sleeping with the girl. Makes her feel ugly.
I wish we had their drive to conquer space still. Perhaps after this war...
I tell you, waiting for someone to come up to my level here is like waiting for the Russians to resupply my food.
Come on I'll dance with the ugly girls too, don't be scared and timid!
BC
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
quote: I tell you, waiting for someone to come up to my level here is like waiting for the Russians to resupply my food
BC Oh, like you didn't bail faster than a French soldier out of wine on the "History of Guerilla Warfare and Iraq" thread.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Actually I forgot about it, I am sure I said what I had to say. Letting people have the last word is a thing I do. I love the little people that make all of this possible...
BC
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
If you have such contempt for the people you're talking to, why do you post here?
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Hey, RRR! Whatever, BC. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Love is contempt?
BC
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
No Canadian has the right to bash the USA, our frendship with your country makes it unassailable by anyone in the world. You shelter in the palm of our hand. I think that the original post was kind of apologizing. 'beating the drum' instead of 'picking up a sword.'
I know for a fact that Bean Counter is a soldier like I was, I think that those of you that are talking instead of walking are pathetic. His heads on straight, he is going to fight for the USA and for the freedom of yet another country (no need to thank us again Frenchy) and he is tall and proud and full of beans! You people trying to bring him down are plugging the barrel, blunting the sword and poking holes in the boots of an american weapon. You make me sick!
Someone mentioned American Ex Pats, well most are rich guys looking to stretch their money in foreign parts, but those who do not love this county, don't let the door hit you in the ass! I've said it before and I will always say it, we can do without you.
We bleed every time someone decides he is going to bring down the big dog, take him down a peg, get a lick in. Then this country of fat stupid baffoons who cannot read or talk right or spell good or whatever your local stereotype says kicks the ever living dog snot out of those responsible.
Give aid to terrorists! Preach hate of us! Attack us! We got some for you too!
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Wow I am a weapon! Quit plugging my Barrel! ouch, quit trying to plug that... okay you can plug that one, ahhh.... BC
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Hey Jar Head, BC's being a soldier doesn't make his nonsense less nonsensical or magically correct his factual errors.
Dagonee
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
I've got you for that! I am pleased as Ian Mckellem in trailer full of hobbits that I can count on it!
BC
[ December 15, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Bean Counter ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
His patriotism is BS huh? Good to know where you stand. Defending America here is out of fashion, well I guess I do not belong because there is nothing else in this world I believe in more. Is that the way it is here? I think the host, who seems to be pretty darn patriotic to me would be ashamed of you Americans afraid to stand up for our country when all it costs you are words, not blood. You sell your love of country too cheaply for me.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Hey Morbo! Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
While I can't happily beat the drum as loud or as fast as BC and JH, I do believe in the greatness of America and worry a bit about the way we view ourselves today.
Honestly, why do we want to be more like Europe? I'm not sure that they've been very good role models for us. As a nation, we've had to divorce our motherlands and fatherlands forcibly. Over the last century or so, we've had to pay them alimony and have had to step in again and again to stop the domestic violence between themselves.
Now, here of late, they tend to sit there, our disavowed parents, swaying lightly in their straight-backed chairs, toying with the swoon of yesterday's stale, cheap red wine, and tell us how we should be better, be more like them, responsible citizens of the world.
It does kind of make me sick. Every thirty or forty years, we've basically got to pick mom or dad up from the bar or the drunk tank after they've picked a fight or made a mess of themselves.
And, like a dutiful child, we'll sit there and listen to their drunken ramblings about how we should live. And somewhere, down deep inside, like any child of a dysfunctional family, we'll think to ourselves that our parents must be right, no matter what we have accomplished on our own.
But don't get me wrong, I don't think we're doing things right or even very well right now, but it's something that I feel we're better equipped to hash out among ourselves than by listening to the chatterings of the European press and diplomatic corps.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
For Jar Head. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
200 punks what you gonna do got two six shooters gonna see me through thats 12 dead and 188 paul bearers
Hey Poor People what you wanna do Rappin Ron Reagan got cheese for you love the needy love them dearly love to read graffiti if they would print it clearly Got an open mind on civil rights my youngest son grew up in tights
Dah Hah Dah, Dah Hah Hah Hah Hah Hah
BC
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
There's a big difference between patriotism and jingoism. Patriotism at the expense of another person, party, or nation is completely indefensable. Why can't America be great by virtue of its greatness and not by virtue of it being "better" than everyone else?
I love my nation, but not because I think Europe has it wrong or because I think America hasn't done anything wrong. America has done some pretty awful stuff in the past, but unlike some posters, I refuse to throw stones becuase I know every nation on earth has done (and is doing) things wrong.
An intelligent discussion on the point-by-points of who is doing what wrong is fine, but I'm not seeing that here.
quote: And with this taxes, we have a totally free health system.
As a point of sematics, your health care system isn't free, it's paid for by taxes. Your country has developed the social contract that people need health care, and everyone has a responsibility towards the welfare of the individual.
[ December 15, 2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Like a shot of ice cold Jack Daniels Lost Ashes! I need a smoke after that!
BC
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
If you don't think your wife is the prettiest girl at the dance then you are pretty messed up. Jingoist, what the hell is that anyway? Some fancy word that makes you cool like Latte or something. Ashes... I am glad you are out there, I guess I will stick around.
Tell me to chill out? I plan to die of stroke screaming on the CB while working and drive my truck through your house. Chill out...
[ December 15, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Jar Head ]
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
I think my girlfriend is the prettiest girl at the dance because I love her and she loves me. I don't have to attack anyone else for dancing wrong, or having plain dance partners.
If you don't know a word, look it up, FFS! Don't attack me for using it. EDIT: I drink coffee like every college student I know. I don't get off on hot milk (i.e. latte).
Jingoism: (1) Extreme nationalism characterized especially by a belligerent foreign policy; (2) chauvinistic patriotism. (from dictionary.reference.com)
[ December 15, 2004, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
quote:Free and Common Sockage would do Mexico so much good that it would become quite nice, its a fixer upper. As for getting money out of Japan, I think the Japanese are people who shine whatever the circumstances. The greatest followers in the world! They would have made wonderful Americans, they are good at whatever they set there minds too.
I think at times they feel insulted that we did not want them. Kinda like beating up the bully and then not sleeping with the girl. Makes her feel ugly.
This is probably one of the most insulting posts I have ever read on Hatrack.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Are you too much of wuss to punch the guy in the nose who calls her an ugly slut? Cause you won't keep her if you are, they always cheat on the sensitive crying type. (pushing an analogy here, not calling anybody a slut!)
[ December 15, 2004, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Jar Head ]
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
vwiggin, this whole thread is full of the most insulting posts I have ever seen at Hatrack.
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
Are you implying that countries should go to war over words, or that the citizens should get into a brawl for insulting each other's countries? I'm not following the analogy properly.
/agrees with Icarus and vwiggin
[ December 15, 2004, 08:36 PM: Message edited by: WheatPuppet ]
Posted by Lost Ashes (Member # 6745) on :
Before this goes too much farther... please watch as I move across the room from Bean Counter and Jar Head. Our stances aren't really that similar and I'd hate to be mistaken for an ally of either's trollishly expressed views. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
You guys must have missed the ones where the Catholic Church was called a brothel and the Pope a pimp.
These don't come close.
Dagonee
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Really? That is a stunner Dag.
I think its time for Hatrack RSS so I don't miss any of this exciting developments.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
The most insulting? Likely I topped myself to achieve that. It is good to be the best at something, so many people just resort to name calling and smarmy icons. It is nice to be appreciated. However it is strange how much insulting of our country gets swallowed without a single gag.
"Lets hear it for the Dogs! The real hero's." Toast to the first successful South Polar mission from the guys who arrived to find the flag.
BC
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Wow, Dag. I did miss that. Was that from the same people in this thread?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Wow, Dag. I did miss that. Was that from the same people in this thread?
No. It lasted about 30 seconds - one of two posts I've ever reported.
I've got imagine I've missed far worse - our mods are pretty good.
Dagonee
[ December 15, 2004, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:However it is strange how much insulting of our country gets swallowed without a single gag.
It's hard to defend our country when there's a couple people providing a perfect example of their criticisms.
Dagonee
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Okay, then I guess I take it back. I have seen out and out spamming from people who are non-members--posts on how to rape kids and such, iirc. I just mean this is the worst I've seen from regular posters--people who claim (implicitly at least) to want to belong to a community, but are being quite destructive of that community.
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
Why in the world would I call the Pope a Pimp? I do not know about the rest of the world but Troll must mean willing to stand up for what I believe in here. Straight talk must not be the norm.
If you want to have forceful opinions, real opinions that you believe in and will fight for then you should practice grabbing your sack and saying it proud. If you want to whine and ask for a consensus, good luck to you.
The analogy: I guess it is that if you will not take it to the next level, the guy pushing your buttons will. Willingness to push it on up will keep your woman safe.
[ December 15, 2004, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Jar Head ]
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
You know Icarus, I'm not sure if you are referring to any of my posts at all.
But I didn't (and didn't meant to) insult America.
Just to say that other people in other countries may not, and often do not, agree with the view that America is the greatest country in the world, and the only one which offers freedom to its people.
I'm not suggesting my country is the greatest either. Heck, there's a lot of things I'd like to change here as well. But there's also a lot of good things, and the US does not have a monopoly on such virtues.
Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: Willingness to push it on up will keep your woman safe
But I don't have a woman to keep safe...
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
But it's hard to "grab sack" and type at the same time though.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:If you want to have forceful opinions, real opinions that you believe in and will fight for then you should practice grabbing your sack and saying it proud.
Can I please take lessons in how to have real opinions from you. I don't know how.
Dagonee
Icarus, it was a regular poster - one who's been here a lot longer than I.
[ December 15, 2004, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Dagonee ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:But it's hard to "grab sack" and type at the same time though.
Well, it's easier if you haven't had a hand bitten off by a giant wolf while holding a glowing jewel.
Dagonee
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
But I had to do it Dag. I needed to "push it up" and keep my woman safe. Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
I love it.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
There you go referencing literature I know nothing about! Well okay I do know the Lay of Beren and Luthien, but I only read it expecting some hard-core action!
Imogen, you are free to love your country and praise it to high heaven, it is a fine distinction that was once summed up in the musical Oklahoma, 'I ain't saying I'm no better then anybody body else, but I'll be damned if I ain't just as good!'
Your country does not need me to defend it or praise it, it has you. I will praise and defend mine, like that girl at the dance, yours has you. If you have a poverty of love for your place in the world, then you should move.
Posted by Beren One Hand (Member # 3403) on :
There's not a lot of laying going on in Tolkien. But the Sam/Frodo fanfic is pretty hardcore though. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Tearing the community apart! This is a discussion board not a discussion bored. I have to say Dag that while you are at times worth paying attention too, you seem to be way off base on this one, sarcasm directed at JH comes off as vanity on your part. He is clearly speaking from the heart, and doing so with half the words and twice the color and clarity you generally show.
You remind me of the two old guys from the Muppet Show. They used to crack me up! Did you see the Mark Hamal episode?
BC
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Go slow Sam or you'll tear the one ring...Oh the things that pop into my head.
BC Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I don't see you doing any discussing.
Posted by Rappin' Ronnie Reagan (Member # 5626) on :
Why do Bean Counter and Jar Head sound so much alike?
Posted by Uhleeuh (Member # 6803) on :
I've wondered the same thing. I've decided they're the same person; if not in reality, they seem to be in post content.
[ December 15, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Uhleeuh ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
We game together! If you must know... I got him interested in this forum. Him and three others, watch and see if you can spot the BC posse! I wanted to make sure some of my wisdom remained behind to delight and intrigue after I am gone!
Jar Head carry the torch brother! BC
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Guys like that make me so ashamed to be an American. It isn't insulting your country when you hold them accountable. Wrong is wrong. Patriotism should not be about spewing out venom every five seconds when one points out certain uncomfortable facts. *wonders why I bother*
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Still waiting for a explanation of why the US was the greatest in the 20s. Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
quote: I have to say Dag that while you are at times worth paying attention too, you seem to be way off base on this one, sarcasm directed at JH comes off as vanity on your part. He is clearly speaking from the heart, and doing so with half the words and twice the color and clarity you generally show.
Dag is rarely unclear, uninteresting, or unnecessarily wordy. However, a few years writings briefs for Kirkland & Ellis may change that though. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
K&E didn't give me a callback. Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
We are completely different, he is Army Infantry and I am Marine MP, They do not even qualify in the standing unsupported! Some of us are going to Iraq! Others will stay to insure that there are no gaps in coverage for Hatrack.
I like Sara so I am staying!
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Well, K&E = Wolfram & Hart IMO. Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Discussing... well the topic started as a those who really support this country should serve it. As one who is doing so with actions, I feel little need to bandy crooked words with those who are not.
As for those who think they live in a better place, well they have never been a young man in Iowa! I do not need faith to know God, I have fact, I do not need to go to heaven, I'll just go home.
I hope to get published while deployed Dag, any advice will be welcome. Of course I will still have to GM for morale reasons so we will see how much I can write.
PS Anybody know a good game in Central Illinois for my Stay-Behind pals in the rear with the gear?
BC
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
quote: As for the US being in the front stage of world politics - that doesn't make the US great. That makes the US powerful.
Some would argue that greatness is power.
quote: I'm assuming you meant wouldn't mind, if I'm wrong, please disregard the following
You assumed correctly.... too bad your gone.
quote: But now I've read BeanCounter's post and boy was I wrong. Packing my bags and waiting for my green card as I type.
Hmm it sounds like someone took BC seriously... Who would have thought...
quote: To me, in my opinion, your milage may vary, it takes more integrity to say "This war is not right" and protest it than to say "I'm not mentally suited for war so I'm going to sit this out, but everyone else who doesn't have my little hang-ups should go."
Okay, how is it Stryker gets away with not addressing this killing point? I mean really, if the response to this belongs on AIM or in email, so does the original post on this topic.
The response doesn't belong on Aim or in an e-mail, I just thought that the conversation had become more of a "why Styrker is a hypocrite" than a "why the US is going down hill". The response is that I have had an experience that has left me guilt ridden. I wrestled for years and years and one of my last matches left an athlete paralyzed. I know only how that event effected me, and I can only imagine how taking a life would.
I also want to clarify, a moral issue is saying, "I believe killing is wrong." A personal issue is saying, "I believe this war is wrong."
quote: As an aside, this may be immoral and unpatriotic, but I'd much rather be alive than dead. I'm not sure if there is anything I'd fight in a war for. I also don't think I should serve my nation in any way. My family - yes. Nation? No.
Immoral, no. Unpatriotic, maybe.
quote: The men who fought and died for the freedom of this country did so because they had to.
The draft didn't come into play until the civil war.
quote: Considering that you have to hire IT workers from outside since most of your people are dropping out of school, let alone graduating, that should be what you are aiming for - good for you!
Our drop out rate is rather low compared to what it has been in the past
quote: Am I to understand that your argument is that if Americans want to get everything they want from the international community, they need to join the military?
No, my argument is that Americans don't understand the concept of doing something for their country, just to do something for their country. Military service was just the example.
quote: If you can not pay the price of War, then the war is not justified, or at the very least, you have no right to egg other people to join the ranks. It seems weak and selfish.
I will not argue the weak point, but I'd only be selfish if I never did anything for my country. I will do something, Im just still looking for the means by which I'm going to do it (This Americor thing looks interesting).
quote: No Canadian has the right to bash the USA, our friendship with your country makes it unassailable by anyone in the world. You shelter in the palm of our hand. I think that the original post was kind of apologizing. 'beating the drum' instead of 'picking up a sword.'
It was, but I'm a fool to think that I could give an opinion without living my life to the most extreme end of that opinion.
quote: His patriotism is BS huh? Good to know where you stand.
His Patriotism is one of his few redeeming qualities. Now if he'd just learn to tread softly and carry a stick instead of a twig.
quote: Before this goes too much farther... please watch as I move across the room from Bean Counter and Jar Head. Our stances aren't really that similar and I'd hate to be mistaken for an ally of either's trollishly expressed views.
I'm with him...
quote: Still waiting for a explanation of why the US was the greatest in the 20s.
In the 20's, the US was at it's highest point (in my opinion). We had no real international issues, our economy was good, and we'd just proven our militaries abilities in WWI.
Now that i've caught up. I'd like to thank those of you who have discussed on this thread. I probably won't post on it again unless some one directs a question at me. Oh and I'm sorry Quid... Can I have my name back now? Posted by imogen (Member # 5485) on :
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But now I've read BeanCounter's post and boy was I wrong. Packing my bags and waiting for my green card as I type.
Hmm it sounds like someone took BC seriously... Who would have thought...
I'm seriously considering starting to use j/k.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"Icarus, it was a regular poster - one who's been here a lot longer than I."
*blink* Seriously? A regular called the Pope a pimp?
BTW, Jar Head, where are you in Central Illinois? I know a few good gamers in Champaign, but they might take some exception to your politics.
------
"As one who is doing so with actions, I feel little need to bandy crooked words with those who are not."
Do you believe that it is possible to serve one's country through actions that do not involve killing other people? If so, which ones?
[ December 16, 2004, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
quote: I wrestled for years and years and one of my last matches left an athlete paralyzed. I know only how that event effected me, and I can only imagine how taking a life would.
As you may know I am a wrestler too, one of the best young wrestlers I have ever seen, a young man named Tim Aschrel was on our team, wrestling varsity over another amazing wrestler named Vance Light. The two were within a point in OT in challenge matches. Matches that ended 2-1 after fifteen minutes of wrestling. (119)
Aschrel was one of those cocky pain in the ass wrestlers that makes my arrogance seem humble. But his whole life was the sport. He once jumped out of single leg I had him in, just leaped up over me and out and away, rolled and got up laughing at me. I was caught by surprise or it would never have worked, and I said, "Anybody who has seen you do that will be ready for it." Angry at his taunts I told a friend that "That shit might work in high school but it won't fly in College." My friend agreed but it still stung to get juked by a guy forty pounds lighter!
At Oklahoma Aschrel tried the move on a wrestler who had watched him on tape. Ready, the wrester caught the leg and as Tim tried to tuck his head and roll away, he got stuffed and ended up paralyzed from the neck down. Vance, a slightly less talented wrestler but more solid went on to be the greatest in our school history and now coaches a winning team in Iowa. I think that shows what Tim's arrogance cost him. It was not justice, it was the price of feeling invulnerable. Like driving drunk.
If the guy you wrestled was qualified to be out there then it is certain that unless what you did was illegal (in wrestling terms) then it was likely his fault for zigging when he should have zagged. Do not let the sympathy become guilt. You were nothing more then tree he drove into, or a cliff he jumped off of...
quote: Do you believe that it is possible to serve one's country through actions that do not involve killing other people? If so, which ones?
The United States of America is going to be destroyed in time by one or a combination of two or three natural catastrophes that are inevitable. YellowStone , a Mega Tsunami or the Caldera/Fault system on the West Coast. This is not certainty but very high likelihood. Not this week, but in time...
Things like demographics and population growth make it certain that without global birth control, resource management, and alternative renewable energy sources the window narrows because of social calamity. However narrow or wide, Malthus or nature, the most critical activity of our time is the exploration of space, the engineering, drive, and financing of it for the salvation of the human race and life as we know it.
I feel that the United States is the best country with the will and resources and experience to begin the grind upward to the stars. However we cannot begin to be about the task of saving the human species with buildings falling down around us. I see the task I am doing as clearing the ground as the Japanese would say, preparing the way for the construction that must follow, buying a window of time between storms to allow for conquest of high orbit, lunar mining and an eventual space elevator.
I will contribute by writing about it as I imagine it. In fiction. And by fighting to stabilize Iraq and the region most likely to blow up our work as we try to build a new Tower too Heaven.
What work is worthy? All science is worthy and part of the project, anything that helps the third world slow its birth rate and starvation rate. Anything that encourages space travel, and anything that brings about a time of peace and extends it. Specifically, alternatives to oil, electrical generation with solar, and nuclear and fusion power, new materials and composites, super conductors, AI and robotics.
Remember it is possible that we could solve the whole range of human issues and still we will become extinct or end up back at square one if we do not colonize space. These are not the end times, they are the crux times, when mankind lives or dies by its remaining will and courage.
Mankind has the time Since Toba until Yellowstone to get its butt off this volatile planet to the relatively infinite resources and energy of the solar system. If we start now we can have a hundred million people and thousands of one gee habitats off the planet in a few centuries. Habitats which could in turn reconstruct a disaster torn Earth in the event of a catastrophe.
Those working for these goals and reaching for them are my people, they have my love and admiration, and are engaged in the true work of man in this time.
BC
[ December 16, 2004, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Bean Counter ]
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:Well, K&E = Wolfram & Hart IMO.
Hehe. Speaking of W&H, I got the first 3 seasons of Angel as an early birthday present.
quote:"Icarus, it was a regular poster - one who's been here a lot longer than I."
*blink* Seriously? A regular called the Pope a pimp?
Yes. I swear I'm not making it up. I know at least 4 other people saw it - several commented, although I never saw the comments.
I won't out them here. Unless they ever deny it.
Dagonee
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
Was this the drunken one? I remember a thread like that, which I never saw in all its glory.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
That's what I was told, but I have no evidence either way.
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Sorry about the split there Dag, I hit the wrong back botton and ended up posting, please go back and read your answer!
BC
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
BC, It was out at freestyle nationals. He started down, I was up, and the whistle blew. He shot up to his feet like you would in folk-style, I caught him, lifted, and suplexed. It was perfectly legal (and for you none wrestlers, it's the most valuable move), but it's considered to be an unethical move by some wrestlers. This is due to the fact that if the other guy comes down too hard, or tilts his head in the wrong way, he ends up as my opponent did. So yes it was legal, but unless trees really do jump at drunk drivers, I can't just write it off...
But I do see your point, i mean by the 3rd day of nationals you've only got the best of the best left...
And as much as I hate to agree with BC, he does kinda have a point, a point that is well said and I tend to agree with...
*moves to the middle of the room*
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: Discussing... well the topic started as a those who really support this country should serve it
Having served in rear support Army, I can tell you without reservation that the country is far better served by someone going to college than by someone going into the military, spending their time basically doing nothing to improve themselves but getting drunk/high and throwing each paycheck away on frivolous bs.
A country is best served by people being the best they can be, and collectively helping the country to be a better country. Unfortunately, the military, the culture of the military, doesn't push people to better themselves in any meaningful way. PT tests are a joke. All the tests I took while in the military to test my competency were a joke. They basically gave you the answers and held any person's hand that couldn't answer a question until they could.
The military is rife with people like me who went in for one thing, but were basically either lied to and caused to go into another MOS, or never get a chance to work in the MOS they're trained in. Saw that a lot in the medical batallion I was in. Only a few slots for soldiers in the hospital to actually perform medicine, so few people could keep up their competencies. Meanwhile, endless days of busy work in the motor pool, yard details, parade and review. I *never* worked in the MOS I was trained in after I got out of that school (AM radio) because the military basically phased out that piece of equipment the year I graduated. Oops!
The military did two things for me: payed me to live in Germany for two years, and gave me the G.I. Bill. It didn't give me the drive to do well in school. It didn't teach me to be kind to my fellow man.
Now, of course, your mileage may vary. I am well aware that combat arms is the better part of the military. I've said so before on this forum. I'm aware that I was in what basically amounts to the non-military portion of the military. However, please don't hold up the military as the only way, or the best way for someone to 'serve' their country. That's just bullshit. The military is just one organ in the body of the country. It is no more or less importan than, say, the legal, education, or spiritual bodies of our country that make our country a great country.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Look. Until America has cleaned up all the garbage in its yard and fixed its own fences it has no right to go to other countries and try to fix theirs. That's all there is to it. We need to sit down and devote ourselves to figuring out how to REALLY make this country shine...
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Gee synesthesia, I wish I could meet you, I bet you are a sweet kid!
The Sup is dangerous no doubt, Illegeal in folk style, famous in Greco and Freestyle, in many ways it is the wrestling move. At that level he was in it to win it. It just happened man. Tense instead of relaxed and instead of rolling through for what three? five? and bang. I hope you went on to win, or was that the final match?
I am with you about the Concerns in Germany, hell I was a guard there, of course I am a guardsman, I have a life outside the military. Many of the support groups are simply overworked. Like a civilian job where you work sixteen hour days and get paid minimum wage, I think civilian companies could handle much of it better and cheaper, but hey, I never claimed it was the only game in town, do what you do man, I will do what I do. The tip of the spear is useless without the handle.
There will be no drinking and brawling and such in Iraq. Morally clean and upright is the standard, and never scoff at fitness though what I saw in Germany was pretty funny. (280 running in flack vest trying to lose weight after six months of driving and no PT)
BC
[ December 16, 2004, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: Bean Counter ]
Posted by Jar Head (Member # 7018) on :
I am in Mattoon IL and if your friends are a bunch of liberal whiners like certain unmentionables around here then I would just steal their dice and leave. BC has me kind of spoiled, I never pay too much attention to all his history and intrigue and background, but when it is gone I miss it. Like the fan I run to help me sleep! Plus he has the best gore and sex in his games as well. He has a gift for it. I quit playing after high school until BC saw my old books and we started a game. Now I am as hooked as I was then!
Oh Well, Sixteen months of boredom and worry. Then game on! I was marreid for four years, I can do sixteen months without D&D easy enough!
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
Dude... don't give away our position like that. Might as well smoke on guard duty, sheesh! Glad I do all that background for nothing, well at least you appreciate the gore, I use the old ICE crit charts as a starting place. E crit!
BC
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
no, unfortunately i didn't go on to win, I wrestled 2 more matches and then had to withdraw with several broken ribs and a stress fracture to my spinal column. I took 8th, the first place guy... was from my state though, he and i went back and forth during the hIgh school season. we ended up rotating practices between our two clubs so we could drill. I could have done it... but i was in such bad shape, both physically and mentally, there is no way i could have beaten him on that day... ok, enough wrestling....
Posted by Bean Counter (Member # 6001) on :
You cannot be great without the Freestyle, but given the length of the Folkstyle season, it is a hard choice to keep going year round hard on the body. Some of my friends did less strenuous sports in the summer, like Rodeo and Motocross!
I liked swimming and biking. Never did too well at Freestyle. I was usually too hung over after the Friday weigh in parties!
BC
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
hmm my hang over usually hit on sunday... I'd got to tournament, win, go home, ice my injuries and drink...
Posted by J T Stryker (Member # 6300) on :
And I wrestled year round...
Posted by Morbo (Member # 5309) on :
Wheatpuppet defined jingoism well, no need for me to reiterate that. BC, Jarhead and others, I or others can love America without being blind to her faults. Which you two seem to be, for whatever reasons.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Pretend there are about 50 more of that smiley along with it.![[Hail]](graemlins/hail.gif)
quid
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All who love freedom : expression freedom, opinion freedom, life freedom !! ![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
All people is welcome !![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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], but it is simply the truth that they lie. Bad science (Day after Tomorrow) [it concern all the world, not only USA.] Bad Statistics (3,000,000 Homeless) [this is a wrong number : it's more, because of restrictions of studies.]and Bad History (Alexander!) [Here is not your history ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
] all lay out a Hollywood and media agenda to push America toward socialism like all the joyous people in Europe [Yes, I am happy. And glad. And i love my country. A lot.] and the Happy Russians ![[Sleep]](graemlins/sleep.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
![[Wave]](graemlins/wave.gif)
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