quote:

---

In comparison to the Hatrack friends I have met, my non-Hatrack friends seem a little bit paler. All of the most brilliant, interesting, funny, knowledgeable people I know are here.

---

I'm interested in this (often repeated) perspective, especially as how it influences people's feelings and participation in Hatrack and just the general social dynamics.

Is it important to people that Hatrack has smarter, more interesting, funnier, compassionate, etc. people on it than they know in real life? Do people even agree with that statement?

Would a less general superiority be more in line with your opinion? Say that people here may be smarter but not necessarily funnier or compassionate or whatever? If so, is that reflected in what you come to Hatrack for? Say, if you think people are funnier, do you find yourself gravitating towards joke threads? And do you go to read those places where you think Hatrack is superior but find posting there intimidating, and tend to post in places where you think Hatrack is on a similar level to your real life experience?

Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions? Do you think that this perspective makes your Hatrack experience qualitatively different from the people who find it superior? What do you get out of Hatrack, if it's not the company of superior people?

I don't know. The web forum dynamic is very interesting to me. I'd be grateful for anything people wanted to say about this.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 
Wow. I don't share that perspective at all.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
I wouldn't say Hatrack people seem more or less real. I sure like meeting people I know from Hatrack, though. But I woudn't say they are more real than the people from Hatrack I haven't met.

P.S. I guess the concern I would have is that Hatrack allows me to remain a shut in. I mean, if I'm okay with that, is it okay?

[ December 29, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I love it here, and I enjoy the fact that I can almost always find someone here who knows something about what I need/want to discuss.

I find that a lot of my friends IRL are nice, and are smart in their own ways, but that I have very ecletic tastes sompared to them so I am constantly having to explain myself to them.

Here I don't have to do that most of the time.

I wouldn't say that all my friends here are smarter than my RL friends, but I DO know quite a few people here who are as smart (if nto smarter) than just about anyone I have met IRL, antwhere.
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
Maybe I'm blessed with awesome friends, but I find that interacting with my real-life friends is much more interesting than Hatrack, but I can't interact with my friends just by connecting to the internet. Forums in general are nice because of the massive numbers of viewpoints and different comments.

I come to Hatrack in particular because I haven't come across a better forum on the internet. The discussions are always interesting, and the people are more civil than other forums I have visited. The only more-polite forum I visit is one devoted to Wings3d, a freeware 3d modeling program. And it's only more polite because there's no discussion about "fuzzy" topics.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
My closest friends IRL tend to be bright, thoughtful, funny people. Many of them I think would make wonderful hatrackers.

So for me it's not that hatrackers are so much more intellegent and funny than my friends... it's that there are so many people here who I would like to be friends with. I'm sure it's because we all tend to have some common interests, especially reading. All of my close friends IRl are also avid readers.

So, I have 4 or 5 close friends, all of whom I'd call "hatrack-caliber" or above. I have a wider circle of 20 or so people I interact with regularly, also of hatrack caliber. I work in an office of about 220 people... most of whom are not hatrack caliber. And I crave almost constant metal stimulation.

I go out with my friends, I work, I read, I work on my hobbies... and I come here. Because if no one from my pool of 5 - 20 people IRL is available to chat with me and amuse me, there is a very good chance that several people from the much larger pool of hatrackers I enjoy and admire will be.

Edit: Reading this, I have no idea if it says what I meant or not.

[ December 29, 2004, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
ElJay,
I guess the idea of seeing people as "hatrack-caliber" is sort of what I'm getting at. How do you think this influences your interactions here and with other people, both of that caliber and not?

[ December 29, 2004, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: MrSquicky ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
It doesn't.


 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
One of the things I'm somewhat amazed by is how much time some people spend here and how high there post counts are. Obviously, Hatrack is a very important thing for them. I guess I'm wondering if this perception of superiorty factors into this.

Also, I have this recollection that there is actually a run of t-shirts out there that say something like "Hatrack: Like your real friends, only smarter." Do these shirts actually exist? What do people feel about them and in what circumstances do people wear them, if they do?
 

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Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
 
My best friend, William, is actually my yardstick for Jatraqueros, rather than the other way around. We have a very strong friendship because we're both well-versed in different things and have different viewpoints on things, but have a lot of common interests that allow us to hang out together. This forum has many people who serve the same role as he does, but with different fields of knowledge and different viewpoints.

I'd much rather spend an afternoon with him throwing dice in a game of Warmachine than on Hatrack.
 

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Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
 
I like being around people who are smarter than me. And I prefer being a follower rather than a leader.

I haven't got any RL friends that live in the same state that I do. Other than interacting with people at work, who tend to focus on medicine and are rather boring, I don't HAVE anyone to interact with.

Hatrack always gives me interesting things to think about. Hatrack tells me about important news events. Even during the days or weeks when I don't post much I look at hatrack all day long.
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 
*shrug* I've never actually thought of people in that way or not before... I broke people into those categories here because it seemed to be what you were driving at, if people saw the people they interacted with outside of hatrack as "above" or "below" the ones they interacted with here. When I thought about it, I have to put the people I choose to interact with IRL in the "equal or above" category, and some, although not all, of the people people I "have" to interact with in the "below" category.

In other words, I see most hatrackers as being people I choose to interact with. Obviously, or I wouldn't be here. And the ones I've met in real life have almost all been people I would enjoy hanging around with regularly if we lived in the same states.

Um, so I don't think it influences my interactions at all. I was answering "Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions?" from your initial post, and pretty much ignoring the rest. Sorry about that.

[ December 29, 2004, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: ElJay ]
 

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Posted by ElJay (Member # 6358) on :
 

quote:

---

Also, I have this recollection that there is actually a run of t-shirts out there that say something like "Hatrack: Like your real friends, only smarter." Do these shirts actually exist? What do people feel about them and in what circumstances do people wear them, if they do?

---

quote:

---

Are there people out there who find Hatrack to be on a comparable or even (as I do) a lower level than their real life interactions?

---

Just to reiterate: I have not said anywhere that my interactions online are on a higher level than my interactions in real life.

-o-

One effect I will say there is from this perspective is I am perhaps a bit more defensive than I ought to be from what I perceive to be trolls. Trollish behavior adds nothing to my enjoyment of the place, and makes it therefore more likely for me to leave. Trollish behavior has also led to people I like and value leaving, or simply posting less, and so it has decreased my enjoyment in this secondary manner as well. And so when insulting, rude, non-productive people come around, I don't ignore the bait like everyone says we should. I, perhaps unproductively, feel the need to confront it. But it stems from thinking that what makes Hatrack special is not intrinsic, or even rooted (necessarily) in anything the Cards have done, but rather that it's a serendipitous and fragile thing, and I get pissed when I feel that it is threatened.

Does that answer your question?
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I agree.

I think that there is such a large number of people here that you can find anything. That makes it attractive to people like me who sleep on a weird schedual.

also I am learning to actually type, rather than poke at the keys.

Since I bought the typing software my speed has tripled, and I get a huge amount of practice typing here. That directly applies to my marketability in the workplace.

Also, this is the only place on the web where I have felt comfortable enough to meet people IRL from a web site. The people I have met from here have all been worth knowing, even briefly. That just isn't true when I meet new people randomly IRL. If I meet Hatrackers IRL we already know we have a common base of interests that a stranger and I would probably not have.

And I am not your typical computer geek either...I didn't even have a computer of my own for the first 2 1/2 years I posted here.

I am most defiantly not shy about meeting people IRL...just ask Bob_S, or Mike, or Liz, or anyone here who has met me in person. I have a ton of friends IRL, but I know that most of them would not be interested in Hatrack so I mention it but I don't push it.

I do have a friend or two that I think would really like this place..they are smart, and funny, and like computers. They are literate, and most of them can type well enough, and are tolerant.

Oddly enough they already remind me of my favorite Hatrackers.

Kwea

[ December 29, 2004, 01:31 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
Pffft. You were totally shy when you met ME.
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
I see myself in so many people here. I guess Hatrack holds kind of a morbid fascination for me. Seriously, it's like watching a bunch of alternate universes interact with each other sometimes.

Hatrack is one place where most of my stupid humor doesn't work, so I tend to think of Jatraqueros as generally my superiors. Kind of a holy grail. There's a promise here somewhere that I've been chasing for the past 4 years. I still don't know what it is.

Hatrack is a good foil for work. Get tired writing about something, and come to Hatrack to find out all the random stuff everyone else is thinking about. When Hatrack goes through dry spells, it's excruciating. I don't have any other thoughtful spots on the Web.

I appreciate the fairly high average age around here as well. Not that I don't value the perspectives of the younger folk here, but it's nice to see eye to eye with others who have had some of the same experiences as I have so far.
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 

quote:

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But the fact is that I have met people who are brilliant, cool, and brilliant and cool.

---

Thanks, man, but you might want to cool it a little. Don't want Cor getting jealous.
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
I think on message boards like this you get the two extremes. You have the chance of forming deep friendships that are not tied to thinks just as popularity and looks...as well as the fact that you have a group of people that is likely to be more intelligent than the general population...and has at least one hobby in common. Then you have the people who like to stir up trouble...and feel free to do so because it is rather anonymous.

The good think is, it is relatively easily to ignore the bad type, and focus on the good type.

Of course some people will think you are odd for making close friends over the Internet. If I mention on line stuff to my mother when I am visiting my parents she refers to them as "imaginary people." When I was younger it used to annoy me, but now I mostly just roll my eyes.

And of course there is my younger sister that is mortified that I talk to strangers on line. She seems to find it "geeky" and warns me not to tell girls who I want to go out with about posting on message boards.

Personally, I think it is very interesting when people mix message board life with real life. On the board where I am an administrator (Terry Goodkind's board) there is a yearly meeting of a bunch of the members (Terry has been to a few of them). And of course there have been all kinds of meetings of hatrack people. Strangely, I have never met anyone I met on the internet in person...though I have had many phone conversations with people I have met online. The Gainesville meeting was to be my first...though the hurricane put an end to that (though I still think we should get together sometime in Jan).

I also find it interesting how message boards seem to have their own personalities at times. You ca just get a feeling for the overall tone of the board after just a little bit of time there. For example, the political tone of George RR Martin's board is rather far to the left. I tried to post there for a while, but just felt very out of place since just about everyone there had very different beliefs than me, and were very hostile about it. This place seems to be a bit left of center (which surprised me at first, due to Card's religious beliefs), but there are also people on the right so it does not feel lopsided or anything. Terry Goodkind's board leans a bit to the right, but not as far as you would expect based on his writing and beliefs. Like hatrack, it has plenty of diversity.
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
Picasso used to hang out with his weird artsy friends at the Lapin Agile. Voltaire and his pals hung out at that one coffee shop. The first abstract expressionists all ended up in New York in the 1950's.

People gravitate together based on common interests and stimulation; there's nothing forced or fake about the way communities create themselves. The internet may be a new forum, but so was the trans-atlantic travel that got Hans Hoffman to New York.

I'm not apologetic for enjoying my interactions here. I don't think having friends in one place affects your ability to have friends elsewhere. I'm a very social person and enjoy spending time with friends here in town, but I tend to find others who have a lot in common with me online too. I don't think it's very fair to decide who is smarter and who is more stimulating.* My friends are my friends.

--

*though, in the case of the infamous t-shirt (methinks it was a David Bowelsism from back in the day), it can be very funny, which was its intent.

[ December 29, 2004, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Annie ]
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Hatrack is exactly not like junior high, which is why I like Hatrack so much. In junior high, I had to have forced interactions with a lot of people I had very little in common with (and on an almost daily basis), in a pressure cooker sort of situation where the competition was laser-beam focused, where unhealthy behaviors and attitudes meant increased popularity, and where I not only didn't understand the rules, but was actively disliked by people with power.

Ugh. Hated junior high.

Hatrack is much more like college, which is why I like Hatrack so much. In college, I was free to pick and choose the environments (i.e., threads) that interest me, could move in and out of different groups as I saw fit, was in an environment where the competition was much more diffuse and diverse, where my own skills -- such as they may be -- were valued, and where I pretty much understood the rules.

That's cool.

I don't think it's that my Hatrack friends are necessarily smarter or better or extra-foamy, just that we have chosen the same classes, are relatively pretty adult, and could all drop the course if we wanted.

A lot of my friends in the 3-D world are like that, too. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately), I'm also forced into interactions with people and situations that don't suit me, too. Some work and family situations, for example, where I grit my teeth and bear up with as much grace as possible. (They are probably doing the same! ). But there's some growth to that, too, and there's growth to the sort of challenges I come across to my worldview and personality at Hatrack, as well.

Hatrack: like picking your own college courses in the stuff you are interested in, moderated by a counsellor to avoid hazing, and no tuition or grades.

Of course I like it. Doesn't mean I have to convince anyone or myself that it is unsurmountably the Best, just that the nature of the set-up makes it likely that I will be happiest here. College was much the same way.

[ December 29, 2004, 07:30 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I think I sort of look at it like ElJay. The people I generally choose to be friends with IRL would mostly do well at hatrack. The large majority of them actually have read OSC. I've even referred several of them to threads here that they've enjoyed and one has actually joined though she posts rarely.

But the people here at work for example... while I am "friends" with them it isn't by choice it's more actually like a family situation where you get along with them warts and all cause they aren't going anywhere and you will see them tomorrow too.

Hatrack keeps me sane while I'm at work.

AJ
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Geez, you guys sound more self-satisfied than a gang of felons or Bush's cabinet. I like the people in real life, but the virtue in hatrack is that the web-site-- and not necessarily the people who are on it-- is always there, always giving and never taking. You get the perk of unconditional love without any of the responsibility. It's a better emotional investment than a dog.

[ December 29, 2004, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
Dogs smell.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"The question I hear is, 'Are you such a friendless loser that you have to convince yourself that your circle of nerd-friends here is superior to the real-life people you don't know because you sit in front of a computer all day?'"

Yeah, that's the question I heard, too. And like Irami's most recent comment, it's a question that can really only come from someone who doesn't understand the appeal in the first place.

Anyone who thinks that Hatrack gives without taking has clearly never considered giving back. I don't claim to speak for everyone, but I can name over a dozen regulars who have devoted time, money, and serious emotional investment -- and I'm not just talking about the Cards, here -- to keep this place prosperous.

To be perfectly honest, I find the likely underpinning of Squicky's original question -- and Irami's followup above -- to be not only offensive but rather baseless; the comments betray, in my opinion, a certain lack of perception and understanding. It's like asking a Trekkie, "So, this whole space star shooty thing; do you like it because of the Wookies, or the lightsabers?"

[ December 29, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I had an experience in High School in my senior year that reminds me of this thread for a reason.

I was a strange kid, not strange as in watch your daughter, but just a bit off. I played flute, read books (particularly Fantasy) at an enormous rate, hated most sports. I was pretty smart but didn't do real well in a lot of classes because I hated the subject material...or I just didn't care. I was really, really into music, and took great pride in my musical skills.

Now in High School it always seemed to me that I was on the outside looking in that I never really fit into any of the neat little groups that the others did. I was as smart as most of the brainy kids, and a lot of them were my friends even though I hated math... ...and a lot of the kids in my music classes were more the popular types who just wanted an easier grade, and they thought my obsession with music was weird. I was on the Swim Team and the Tennis team....but most of the jocks looked down on those sports and didn't consider us one of them. At least not me, all 120 lbs of me.

I didn't even buy a yearbook, because I didn't care about that. I didn't want to walk up to a bunch of people who were wishy-washy about their friendship with me and ask them to write a bunch of bull about me just because we were graduating.

Then a funny thing happened. One of the girls I had know from elementary school came up and asked if she could sign my yearbook. She was really popular, and we had had a few classes together but we were far from friends. When I told her I didn't have a yearbook she got embarrassed and asked me to bring her mine if I changed my mind about buying one.

As she walked away she stopped, and steeled herself....then she told me why she wanted to sign it. About a year before I had been walking to class after a bell and I ran into her in a lobby. She had been crying, and I almost walked right by....she was no friend of mine, and had been rude to me in the past....but I stopped and asked if she was OK. She started bawling again, and I went over to her to see what was wrong. She was sobbing as she told me...her grandpa had just died the day before, and when she got to school her boyfriend of 3 years had broken up with her to date her friend.

I didn't know what to say, so I just listened. I remember thinking that it was a good thing I had a hall pass or I would get in trouble for being late, and I was a little resentful because she really had not been all that nice to me in the past. But what really mattered was that she was hurting, the same way I had been hurting when my Grandpa died years ago..so I did what I could.

The next day it was as if it had never happened. She wasn't ever mean to me, but we we not friends, nor did we ever really talk again....until the yearbook incident.

I had that happen over and over again. People I had not really ever known came u to me and wanted to sign my yearbook. I got a little defensive because I didn't have one, and the reasons people wanted me to sign there books amazed me.

The one thing that came up over and over again was the fact that I didn't belong to any one click, but that I had friends from all over the school. The Captain of the football team came over because he and I use to meet up to play video games at the local video game parlor all the time. Half the cheer leading squad came over...I had helped one of their friends pass English, and it turned out that one of them had had a crush on me for a year....not that I had ever known...lol...

All my really good friends came over, and they loved the fact that sometimes I would sit with my band friends, some of whom were popular, and sometimes I would sit with them..at the not so popular table.

And the whole time I felt weird because I didn't feel I had fit in at either table. What I felt was a weakness other people came up to me and praised as something worthwhile, and something that they had wished they had done.

When push comes to shove, we are all weird in our own way I guess....

Hatrack is like that to me...I can pun away with Bob, offer support and love to Mack and Nate, debate with TomD, ask (and answer) questions with Sara Sasse.......and here there are no tables that you HAVE to eat at, no click that you MUST be in to be cool. Rather there are a ton of clicks, and you can be in as many or as few of them as you wish.

Sure there are clicks, and people who have known each other a while often have a rapport with each other that can be difficult for a noob to breach... But after you take the time to get to know the place it feels like home. I have never had that experience on-line before, and it felt weird at first.

But now I wouldn't trade it for anything, or anywhere else I have been on the net. It isn't just a web site, I have made it part of MY click, My life, and it is every bit as real as my other non-Hatrack friends.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
I like Hatrack. I don't use it as a substitute for "real" life, but it's an awfully nice addition.

When the kids are in school, I'm home alone all day. I dislike talking on the phone. I've moved twice in the last 9 months. Most of my friends are an hour and a half away. Hatrack provides me with a ton of instant friends, most of whom are witty and fun.

Not only have I moved a lot lately, but to be honest I completely suck at making friends in real life. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find a quirky, intelligent woman my age in a town of 600 people - half of which attend the local elementary school? I'll be scanning the ranks of the new PTO the next meeting, but I don't have any high hopes.

space opera
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 
CLIQUES!

Someone had to say it.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I heard all sorts of clicks and pops from the last child we roasted, Scott. But it smelled so good it was worth it....

I forgot...here you get to bait the grammer police.

Such fun...and it is free!

Kwea

[ December 29, 2004, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
BTW, I am one of those people TomD is talking about. I spent my own moey on the WMASS Picnic, and it was worth every penny.

Tell Sara there is no emotional investment here, or no investment in time.

That comment says a whole lot about you and your involment here, and very little about the rest of us.

Kwea
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

---

Dogs smell.

---

I didn't want to tell you before, Kama, but I can tell your stench from half-way across the world and ten time zones.

Tom,

I just don't think that what is done on hatrack is of the greatest importance or at the highest level. There is something to be said when the host doesn't post here because it's a waste of time.

Sure, maintaining a hatrack community is more virtuous than merely chatting, and it's more fulfilling than going to a superbowl party, but it's still a made for television hobby. It's at best, second best to real study and real community. But on the upside, it's always there, at night and in the morning.

Kwea,

I'm a snob. As much as I'm part of the community, I do think that there is something essentially mediocre about wading through everyone's partially informed and scantily thought opinion, and conferring some sense of dignity upon that opinion for no other reason than it's on hatrack. A community is a precious thing, but what seperates community for the sake of community, and a clan or a gang?

[ December 30, 2004, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 

 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

It's at best, second best to real study and real community.

---

quote:

---

Your limited is my rich.

---

quote:

---

I do think that there is something essentially mediocre about wading through everyone's partially informed and scantily thought opinion

---

I'm exposed to far more partially informed and scantily thought opinions in my day-to-day interactions than I am at Hatrack.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Dagonee,

There are some people think that the "The Da Vinci Code," is a wonderful compelling tale, I say it's fluff whose success degrades the entire literary genre and shows the poverty of the American reading public. I imagine that much of reality television is similarly blessed.

Maybe I'm an elitist.
Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors.

Kama,

The devil tempts in mysterious ways, first in the guise of a snake then a scandinavian.
 

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Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm exposed to far more partially informed and scantily thought opinions in my day-to-day interactions than I am at Hatrack

---

Duh-- you're a LAWYER!

Oh, come on. You expected the joke. I merely fulfilled your longing for it.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
But a lot of people here would tell you that it wasn't a good book....that is the cool part, that there are people here that hold all sorts of ideas and opinions that you might not see IRL because there is a higher diversity level here.

And not just about books.

Besides, without Hatrack I would have never met Kama, so .....

[ December 29, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Irami - Ugh. Your pride in your snobbery gets worse as you get older.

Tell me. In the world of self-improvement and personal growth that you wildly wish everyone would participate in, how does alienating those around you with your manner of presentation fit in? You must see that your snobbery is, at best, counterproductive for both those you hope to help, and for your own growth.

edit: Oh, and these kinds of comments, "Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors" are the height of emotional masturbation. Just FYI.

[ December 29, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Ralphie, don't hold back, say what you REALLY mean....



[ December 29, 2004, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
On one hand, I agree with Irami in that online-only communities will always lack at least four of the five senses, and therefore by definition even the best online communities cannot live up to the best MeatSpace communitities. (This is in fact a topic about which I've argued with Anne Kate; she does not believe the differences are meaningful, whereas I do.)

Of course, we're not always comparing the best online communities to the best offline communities. We're often comparing one of the best online communities to, say, the community available in a small town in Kansas, or to an unattractive person in an East Coast college town. And this is where Irami's assumption of "convenience" comes in; he believes that many people spend time here because they lack the drive to go out and form better communities for themselves. (This is also where Squicky's assumption comes in, as he sees in our smugness a certain amount of deliberate self-delusion designed to keep us happy with this community when compared to the "richer" alternatives.)

And those may very well be valid criticisms. Certainly some members of Hatrack do use this place as a crutch; we've had a number of people decide that Hatrack was cutting into their real life so much that they dropped off the forum for a time, often following a desperate intervention. Like any hobby, or any social group, it can be used as a substitute for "real" friendship.

But that's only a bad thing if it is NOT in fact a decent substitute for real friendship. Certainly, those people I consider friends in the real world would fit perfectly into Hatrack; most of the people I adore on Hatrack would -- and did, in my experience -- work perfectly well as friends in the real world. I'm attracted to the individuals, not the site; the only reason I didn't follow the "mass exodus" from Hatrack a while back was that enough people I liked stuck around here that I felt it was possible, by not following the fleeing crowds, to lure 'em back someday -- which, given how much more likely this site is to survive and to attract new blood than any individual poster's site, a preferable long-term solution. (Note: that appears to have worked, to some extent.)

Perhaps I've gotten lucky, living in a region fairly full of other Hatrackers that we manage to see pretty often -- but last I heard, neither Irami nor Squicky are particularly far from any of the MeatSpace clumps, either. So why do they consider Hatrackers to be "internet" acquaintances? I certainly, for example, do not consider Sara, Julie, or Dan to be "internet" friends.
 

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Posted by Kama (Member # 3022) on :
 
*wonders why Kwea always uses the devil smilie when speaking of her*
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

There are some people think that the "The Da Vinci Code," is a wonderful compelling tale, I say it's fluff whose success degrades the entire literary genre and shows the poverty of the American reading public. I imagine that much of reality television is similarly blessed.

Maybe I'm an elitist.
Maybe I'm a man who likes things just so, but there is a virtue in having discrimating tastes for worthwhile endeavors.

---

quote:

---

unattractive person in an East Coast college town.

---

Jerk. I'm MUCH better looking than. . . say. . . um. . .

:sniff:
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"And Tom, I am one of those people who comes to this site for reasons of finding intelligent discourse - and not much else."

Hey, no problem. You get what you put in. But keep in mind that you got a date or two out of all this "intelligent discourse," though. While it may not have turned out ideally, and while that was almost certainly not an underlying goal of yours, it's worth nothing that at least some community spirit snuck through.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 
That's all I originally came here for.

Luckily it didn't work out that way.

Dagonee
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
You originally came here for a date, Dag?
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
Yes. The legend of your beauty and wantonness has spread throughout the internet.
 

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Posted by Bob the Lawyer (Member # 3278) on :
 
I've always found it odd when people say that one of their friends would make a good Hatracker. I tend to take the opposite point of view, there are some Hatrackers that I think would make great friends.

For me, Hatrack is enjoyable because there are some funny, smart, polite, etc. people who are available to me whenever I want them and whenever it's convenient. I just turn on the computer and there they are. But lets face it, if I had to devote real time and travel to come to the Hatrack living room it wouldn't be worth it to me to do so.
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Some of them started as Internet friends, but now that I have met them there isn't a difference between them and RL friends.

Mack, Myr, Mike, Suneun.....those are just a few of the people I have met here at Hatrack that I consider friends....not that they are really close ones. I don't know them all that well compared to some of my other friends, but I know them a lot better than most people I have only seen face to face two or three times.

Suneun and Mike are really close, but they know each other IRL and do things together all the time IRL. Mack and Nate...well, you know.... so there IS a difference between knowing people on-line and knowing them only through Hatrack.

But I find that Hatrack enriches my life, makes it better. It is a place where I can "go" at night when I can't sleep...my wife can find me, I am still at home, but I don't have to sit there staring at the walls or the TV.

Like anything, too much Hatracking can cause problems...but then so can too much food, sex, beer, billiards (take my word on this one), and any number of things.

That is the beauty of Hatrack to me...I don't work today until 1 pm, so I sat here and got pratice typing, and writing, and now that I have to go to work I can stop....and pick up the same thread when I get home tonight...if I choose to do so that is...
So part of it IS the convienence of it, but it is more than that to me. It is my favorite web site, and I have made friends IRL from here that I will always remember.

When is the last time that happened watching TV, Irami?

[ December 29, 2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by advice for robots (Member # 2544) on :
 
I love how Hatrack helps make terms like "meatspace" and "IRL" meaningful.
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Ralphie,

There are all manners of sin and fetish accepted not because they are especially good, but because they aren't particularly bad for the people involved.

As an aside, I think this is rooted in my understanding that there is a body of morally arbitrary kinky habits that are okay for some people but are mistakes for others. The same goes the other way, equally amoral habits are unacceptable as a matter of culture, not of anything deeper or truer.

I'm not sure so sure that hatrack isn't one of them. I'm not so sure that hatrack is any different than tipping cows, trashcanning freshman, playing computer games, smoking pot, doing math, or watching football. That we have the luxury to engage in the board with impunity doesn't mean that we should exalt Hatrack to a status the board does not deserve.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
For what it's worth, I am looking forward to the possiblity of kwea and JenniK moving to my area. I think they would make great friends.
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

You originally came here for a date, Dag?

---

quote:

---

I knew before I posted someone would interpret it that way. Nah, I was engaged before I came to Hatrack.

It was the intelligent discourse thing.

---

Harsh! Eve isn't the sharpest tack in the box, eh?
 

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Posted by FlyingCow (Member # 2150) on :
 
And actually, Tom, that drove me away from the website for nearly three months. I was *this close* to making my 1000 landmark be a "leave me the hell alone" thread, but instead, I just left - and got lumped in with the mass exodus that happened at the same time.

More and more people were calling me by my real name and IMing me out of the blue. I was so overrun by community that I couldn't take it anymore, even after the relationship ended (which, incidentally, was essentially set in motion by Olivia, who I knew pre-hatrack in real life). The community had spoiled my interest in the site, and I left long enough for it to cool down.

So far, so good.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
And the wantonness, man. Don't forget the wantonness.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"The legend of your beauty and wantonness has spread throughout the internet."

Bah! Beauty, perhaps -- but her wantonness is vastly overrated. Toni promised me a hug and a butt pat four years ago and still hasn't delivered. Some wench she is.
 

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Posted by Megachirops (Member # 4325) on :
 
You know, that was a response to Dag, but it seems to fit in pretty well anywhere. In fact, I think I'm going to start inserting it in random threads . . .
 

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Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
 

quote:

---

Harsh! Eve isn't the sharpest tack in the box, eh?

---

Eve is frighteningly smart and perceptive.

She was also 106.25 miles away most of the time.

Dagonee
 

---

Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
I think we already are, Icky...

You are right, though...I would really like to get to meet you IRL as well.

so, Irami, let me get this right....you equate tipping cows, math, and Hatrack as equal pursuits??



I think you get out of it what you put into it. SO it doesn't surprise me that a self-described snob doesn't feel we are worthwhile.

Nor does it make me change my opinion, either of him or of Hatrack.

If all you put into it is snobbery and disdain then why would any of us care Irami?

I'd rather watch tv....at least I can choose the programming, and turn it off when it begins to annoy me.

Wait, I can do that to a computer too.

See you later.



Kwea

[ December 29, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
Irami - Your point is that not all things lawful are necessarily advantageous. If you notice, I didn't disagree with your point. But from where I'm sitting your manner of expressing your point has become, over time, that much more unpalatable.

As in competition, I believe you mean to help everyone achieve their own level of excellence simply by trying to exude your own excellence. You take pride in your 'snobbery'. (Which I don't think, deep down, you are. Unless it's a reverse snobbery.) You refer to your own elitism. You trash things that are well accepted as entertainment because they do not meet your rigid standards of movie eugenics. EVERYTHING must have a defined purpose and message and it MUST be for the betterment of everyone and everything. And probably because of this device, lately when I read your words they lack the same passion and conviction I know you are intending them to have. From my perspective they seem almost contrived, because the agenda is clear: make everyone think you're REALLY REALLY smart and inspire them to find their inner REALLY REALLY smart guy.

You are highly intelligent, articulate, introspective, and frequently have a solid handle on the big picture. But you're never going to inspire people if you just keep reestablishing those facts, and especially if you do so in an off-putting manner. Elitism is always off-putting, plain and simple. It will never inspire, it will always be unattractive. And, at the end of the day, you're just a snob.

I admit that I could be completely off base here, but that is how I perceive it.

[ December 29, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Ralphie ]
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 

quote:

---

I knew before I posted someone would interpret it that way. Nah, I was engaged before I came to Hatrack.

It was the intelligent discourse thing.

---

Oh, so now I'M the predictable one. (Banter, baby. Banter.)

Regarding the wantonness: I told Icarus in parachat last night that the trick is to show just that... much... leg.

It's really the key to the whole operation.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Actually Ralphie, I guess I'm a reverse snob when it comes to Irami. I'm glad I don't live in his insipid rigidly defined world and I pity him that he does.

AJ

(hee hee, this post was #69 in the thread, I do get a wicked bit of glee every time that happens)

[ December 29, 2004, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
Tease.
 

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Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
 
AJ, you're so silly.

On the other hand, my anniversary is 6/9.

space opera
 

---

Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 

quote:

---

Actually Ralphie, I guess I'm a reverse snob when it comes to Irami. I'm glad I don't live in his insipid rigidly defined world and I pity him that he does.

---

quote:

---

you equate tipping cows, math, and Hatrack as equal pursuits??

---

quote:

---

When unskilled inarticulate white businessmen are propelled by the laws of economy, they are somehow seen as virtuous in their pursuit of money-- in a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, sort of way, how am I going to tell unskilled inarticulate black kids not to sell drugs, as there is good money to be made selling happiness is in these times of woe and want?

---

quote:

---

More and more people were calling me by my real name and IMing me out of the blue. I was so overrun by community that I couldn't take it anymore

---

*removes from AIM buddy list*
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I think that's our fundamental disagreement then Irami. I believe there *is* dignity inherent to hard [physical] work. I think the migrant farm workers picking strawberries in the fields of CA, have more dignity than I do in my cushy office at my computer. *shrug* It's just what I believe, I guess it is faith even if non-theological in nature.

AJ

I also think you will see this same dignity displayed in the often highly educated, but monetarily poor farmers, in the midwest as well. (My primary acquaintance is with Okies, but I know some Kansans too )

[ December 29, 2004, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
I'm not well versed in authors, and I've never read "Franny" but my first thought was Whitman working his butt off in the medical tents during the Civil War. I don't think without that experience with hard work he could have ever heard America singing.

AJ

(My primary beef with the DaVinci Code is its ending which is wholly unsatisfying and trite even for light reading; I'd contrast it with the movie National Treasure which was equally fluffy but had a more coherent wrapped up ending, IMO.)

[ December 29, 2004, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 
Tom,

I like him as a short story writer.

BannaJ,

HOw do you square:

quote:

---

I believe there *is* dignity inherent to hard work. I think the migrant farm workers picking strawberries in the fields of CA, have more dignity than I do in my cushy office at my computer.

---

quote:

---

In the corporate climates that I work in, a minority or female with an engineer or MBA is worth their weight in gold, because the companies *want* to be inclusive but don't have people to include!

---

I'm sure that's true, but question is, and this is a big one, so what? It's always been laughable that integration in the United States means that, to a large degree, everyone is supposed to accept the cultural priorities of anglophones. It's as if deep down, we are all texans. Though when Clinton was President, I think he thought that if we did enough scrubbing, everyone would be from Indiana. (I know he was from Arkansas, but I got the feeling he thought everyone else was from Indiana.) We are still waiting for the Iraqies to become Texans, but it may take a while.

Why should these kids want to be corporate VPs? I'm not so sure there is a dignity in that, and I don't think I'm alone in seeing the discrepancy. It's a crazy assumption, rich with implications.

[ December 29, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Well getting *through* engineering school IS hard work, even if it means the rest of your life is easier.

I don't really see the contradiction. There is dignity in hard physical work. There is dignity in mental work. Both can yield honest livings entirely outside of the "white mans world" stuff. I'm not saying you have to aspire to the *white* way of living your life. I'm saying you have earned an honest day's wage, and can provide a roof over your head and food on the table. I think that is the beginning in *any* culture.

I'm not entirely into Maslow's hierarchy but kind of that direction. Even the migrant farm workers have longer lifespans than when we were in the plains of Africa as hunter/gatherers. The migrant farm workers are to a person sending money back to their families in Mexico. There is dignity and worth in that, knowing they are helping other people.

Though if you truly don't believe you can succeed honestly in life, then yes, all you have to offer to your ghetto kids is despair. I believe you can suceed without buying into the anglophone culture, I'm sorry you don't.

AJ
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Whatever.
 

---

Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Also, why wouldn't you want these kids to become corporate VP's? Isn't it possible they could bring more humanity and de-anglicize the corporate culture? Humanity is nothing without hope. I think even Tom Davidson would agree with me there. Why can't you give these kids hope of a better life without being drug dealers?

AJ
 

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Posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong (Member # 2229) on :
 

quote:

---

I believe you can succeed without buying into the anglophone culture, I'm sorry you don't.

---

I think you can to, if you understand success as only loosely, indirectly, and accidentally, linked to money and capital.

Corporate VPs. *shrugs* I want them to make something worth making of their lives. And I'm not sure that being a VP is something worth being.

[ December 29, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Irami Osei-Frimpong ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Quid, was the "whatever" directed at me or Irami? I think that even though it is awful and messy the people that are helping with the cleanup efforts are also to be admired and *are* heroes, even if they haven't done all the prerequisite thinking that Irami requires of his heros.

AJ
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Yeah there are two definitions of sucess here. I believe *both* are true, but the sucess of someone having dignity (not pride) is larger than the monetary sucess. However I believe honest monetary sucess is possible as well.

AJ
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Sorry, Banna. You must have posted mere microseconds before me. That *whatever* was directed at Irami. The whole pseudo-intellectual discourse is boring me. And it's pointless.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
All right then have them be a corporate President and an honest one! The good people *do* exist out there. But they aren't necessarily pushing themselves into the limelight either. You're always going to see more of the crappy ones like Michael Powell cause they are the ones who are hungry for the publicity.

AJ

(It's like Dagonee, proving that there are good and honest lawyers out there, and probably more that are than aren't. You just don't hear about them cause the honest ones are too busy doing their job!)

[ December 29, 2004, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by saxon75 (Member # 4589) on :
 
"This is trash."

"Why are you such a snob?"

"Trash might be fun, but it's still trash."

"Granted, but do you think being snobby like that is helping things?"

"We should be into wholesome things, not trash."


 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"And I'm not sure that being a VP is something worth being."

The great thing -- and I am completely serious about this -- about being American is that every single schoolkid in this country gets to decide whether they agree with you on this topic, Irami.

Some will conclude that being a VP is something worth being, regardless of their skin color. And some will not, again regardless of their skin color. And since not everyone wants to be a VP, not everyone will be a VP, and that will be okay. But as long as the ones who want to be VPs have the opportunity to become VPs, we're doing all right.

[ December 29, 2004, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
I worry that the decisions about what one can be do have distinctions that fall along lines of color, though, even if some buck the trend.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
These distinctions are generally de facto, though, and not de jure. And they can be overcome. In the same way that little girls can grow up to be engineers and doctors, black boys can grow up to be nurses or stockbrokers. There are more obstacles along these less-traveled lines, but they're not impossible to transcend.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
They may not be impossible to transcend, but the de facto nature of the thing points to systemic problems. If most Black kids do not consider being VP to be one of their realistic options, then there is either something genetically about them which causes them to believe this, or it is because of their environment, or some combination.

Whatever part is secondary to the environment (and I tend to think it is all environment) is something which needs to be acknowledged and addressed. Seeing a majority of a given population behave in a certain way tends to make me consider systemic influences to be more (or, at least, as) influential as individual choices.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
And here we reach an impasse: at what point do systemic remedies become preferable to individual ones? Sadly, this answer is often modified not per specific case but by general ideological assumptions.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
See I think there *are* positive role black models out there. Aside from my bf, I know quite a few myself, where I work. A lot of them have been the most understanding to *me* specifically because as a woman in engineering I am in an minority just as small if not smaller than their minority.

I think by showing the kids those people who *have* suceeded, and not branding the sucesses as Uncle Toms and turncoats (especially when they clearly aren't and you have no right to apply or imply indirectly as Irami has a sweeping hurtful lable like that) is how we will start to change the systemic condition. There are more professional and college educated blacks today then there were 40 years ago.

Yeah there is the good and the bad in every group, an interesting example that Steve and I noted recently, is a boy on the OU football team, Adrian Peterson. His father is in jail. The coach when recruiting him used his one visit to visit the father rather than the son. What is worth noting, is that both his father and his mother are college educated. The mother is quite successful in her own right though I forget the profession. But the most interesting thing of all, is the crime the father is in jail for: Money Laundering. A traditionally *white-collar* crime that takes a lot of intelligence. However, this father has stayed involved with his son's life even from jail and been able to influence his son's character for good. I'm not saying that it is good, but I'm saying that even at the worst case, upgrading to white-collar crime because of increased education increases the level of parenting involvement, and produces outstanding children like Adrian (who has immense amounts of character on top of being an oustanding athlete) then the outcome is actually a net positive.

AJ
(Note: I'm not saying the ends justify the means, I'm saying that the worst case scenario is still improved from what it was before.)

[ December 30, 2004, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
 
I like to think that the concept and the goal of real democracy end in a community where people are more concerned with what they are giving to their society than what they are receiving.
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 

quote:

---

Not many people in real life share the interests I have. I spend a lot of my time censoring what I say so others will understand, or sniggering at comments that no one else knows or cares about.

---

As an aside: I don't have to do that with my close RL friends, but I definitely have to censor practically everything I post here. My situation is the complete reverse of yours, Teshi.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Grin, I think I like the uncensored twinky better.

AJ
 

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Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
 
I don't mean censor in a "oops can't say that not appropriate" way, I mean as in a, "can't mention that because no one will get it," type of way. I rarely say anything that needs to be censored in a "can't say it" way anyway.

Of course, there are lots of things that would mean nothing to Jatraqueros, too.

It's a totally different community from my real life, and that's what I enjoy.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Can you add a comma in that sentence somewhere Sara, I had to read it three times before it made sense...

I worry too. But, in addition to the general humanity issues though, I have a personal worry for Steve. What happens if he ends up working construction in a seedier Chicago neigborhood where his skin is too light or too dark or he's the wrong ethnicity altogether...

AJ
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Which sentence? Where would you add an appropriate comma?

*will be as helpful as my OCPD allows me to be
 

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Posted by twinky (Member # 693) on :
 

quote:

---

Grin, I think I like the uncensored twinky better

---

The fact that there are several different ways to interpret this amuses me.

Aside: My NZ passport arrived by courier just now!
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
OCPD= Obsessive Compulsive Post Deletion? You know it is an interesting trait that you and Theca share. I'm chalking it up to an MD quirk. Maybe it's because since you are typing your handwriting is legible?


AJ
 

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Posted by MrSquicky (Member # 1802) on :
 
You know, I really didn't intend this as a bash either against Icarus or against Hatrack in general. I'm sorry that it was taken that way and was taken up by others as a place to bash Hatrack.

I really am very interested in the dynamics of this forum. I see web interactions as an important new way that people can communicate and the formation and maintainence of communities like this forum are fascinating to me. In this context, it would be counterproductive for me to judge either the community or the people in it.

The idea that Hatrack contains superior (usually more intelligent) people than those the posters know in real life - I just realized, is it my use of "real life" that makes this sound like an attack? I didn't mean it that way. It was just supposed to be a description of non-internet relations and I really don't like using MeatSpace or any of the other terms that I could think of for this. Certainly, while I see internet interactions as being different from non-internet ones (with some significant things missing but also some added), I think it'd be a mistake to designate them as "not real". - seems to me to be a common thing for people to say. I don't share this perspective, but then I'm also not exactly prominent in the community nor am I engaged in it anyway near the same degree as many of the people here. So I was looking for people's thoughts on this idea and how it affected their relationship to the community.

There's myriad ways to figure out if something is "important" to a person's conceptions. Two ways I think would be useful here are how high it would be on a list of ways you think about or would describe Hatrack and how agitated you would be in the face of contradiction (maybe broken down into subcategories of more superficial contradictions like someone saying that people here aren't really all that smart or funny and more substantive ones like being shown reliable evidence that Hatrackers aren't really superior in these things).

The question of superiority seems to me to be a very important one because membership and participation here are the pretty much solely the result of people's choice to do this as opposed to other things. I'm very interested both in this choice and in the conceptual causes and effects of this choice. I was hoping to get people talking about it from the angle of perceieved superiorty, not to judge, but to explore.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
OCPD

(Just to warn you, I might delete this post at any time. )
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
I didn't so much think your intent was to insult me or make me look bad, and I'm sorry if I overreacted. What annoyed me, though, was that that quote was taken out of context, and I thought that the context was crucial to the meaning of it. This was from a thread where a poster had humbly admitted to a somewhat provincial outlook before beginning a contentious thread, and I was being sympathetic/understanding about that, and pointing out why it was worth it to move past that. The very sentence before the one you quoted is, I think, key:

quote:

---

It can be pretty eye-opening, but once you get over thinking you have to out-knowledge or out-smart everybody, it can make for some pretty rewarding interaction.

---

quote:

---

It's worth getting used to.

---

The sentences you quoted, therefore, were less about superiority than they were about what I find rewarding about being here at all.

So again, my response to you is that I believe it's the opposite: rather than it being important to me to believe anything in particular about hatrack, it is the diversity of good stuff here that keeps me coming back. And that's why I've never gotten hooked on a forum that didn't have some connection to the people I know from here.

The other thing is that the internet makes it possible for people who are outside the norm to find more people like them. That can be a negative: pedophiles creating networks, or merely socially inadequate people finding a substitute for getting out of doors. It can also be, if not positive, then at least neutral. In Hatrack, I find people who understand without my explaining things that other people could not, no matter how hard I tried to explain.

Which seems contradictory. I am simultaneously claiming that I find greater diversity in Hatrack, and people who are like me. Paradoxically, both are true.
 

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Posted by Lisha-princess (Member # 6966) on :
 
What I like about Hatrack (and I say this as a new member) is the type of people I find here. I have a fair amount of friends and I wouldn't qualify another of them as being "dumb" or "average"...I go to a good school and there are lots of smart people there. But the majority of the people that I know are not readers. They don't read for pleasure, they don't own books, and they don't appreciate such things. That's something that I have always wanted more in my friends. It's not to say that I don't enjoy the friends I have, because I do. I dearly love them. I also really enjoy being able to discuss books and writing, and I don't have converstions about such things with IRL friends, except for...well, Hobbes. :-) I also really enjoy the kinds of conversations about other things that tend to sprout among book-lovers that are not book-related. It's not at all that I don't enjoy my other friends; they're great. I like them for who they are, and I like interactions with Hatrackers, and I don't think either is necessarily better than the other. Just different.
 

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Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
 
Sara, can you help me understand the distinction between OCD and OCPD?
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
You know, there are a number of things I love about Hatrack. I love that it brings me into contact with intelligent, articulate people who hold opinions that are diametrically opposed to my own. My friends in real life are as on par, intelligence-wise, with the brightest people here, but there is much less diversity of opinion among them--all of them, in terms of their politics and stances on religion, are one flavor or another of Tom Davidson, more or less. Here I'm brought into contact with people, equally intelligent and articulate, that hold a much broader spectrum of opinions/worldviews/etc.

I love the warmth of this place, the community. I typically don't wade into the hug threads and such, but I have come to care deeply about a large number of people here, and feel richer for having known them.

I love the range of ages that are present, and wish that it were broader.

I'm sure there's more, but I want to go and do something else now.
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
How detailed do you want, Icarus? Very briefly, I'd contrast them as follows:

OCD is a mental disorder in which thoughts become fixated (i.e., obsessions) and rituals are devised to ameliorate the stress associated with the obsessions (i.e., compulsions). People with OCD generally understand that the obsessions are not rational, are troubled by them, and may have perfectly normal interpersonal behavior outside of the disorder itself.

In contrast, OCPD is a personality disorder, which means it permeates the entirity of how those affected relate to other people and the world at large. There is no "normal interpersonal behavior outside of the disorder itself," because there is no "outside of the disorder." People with OCPD are generally rigid, inflexible, autocratic, self-righteous, and not at all troubled by their behavior or beliefs, as these seem perfectly correct to them.

With OCD, it is the person affected who is troubled by it. With OCPD, it's everyone else that has to deal with the person affected that is troubled by it.

There's more at the link above, but that is the basics.

[ December 30, 2004, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"are one flavor or another of Tom Davidson, more or less"

Nowadays, I come in X-Treme Cherry and Razzberry Lime.
 

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Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
 
Man, I hated it when they discontinued the Strawberry-Kiwi TomDavidsons. Those were the best!
 

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Posted by Ralphie (Member # 1565) on :
 
I've been waiting for Sour Melon Tom Davidson. Word on the street is, they're coming out with it REALLY soon!

ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease...
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
I know the conversation has moved on, but I wanted to say that I think of Hatrack as my water cooler conversation. I have an office at home and an office at church, and either way there's no one else in the building (or there wasn't until Bob moved and set up his office at my house.) If I saw people during the day, it's because I was doing home, nursing home, or hospital visits, or counseling. None of which compare AT ALL to discussions with friends or colleagues. So I come here. It's not as good as going out with friends, but it's a lifesaver when you work mainly alone.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
I totally understand that one, dkw. I was a self-employed accountant for nine years, and now I'm a stay at home writer/lazy person who plays on the internet all day.
 

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Posted by Da_Goat (Member # 5529) on :
 
You know, I can't recall ever having a rasberry lime anything...
 

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Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
 
Mr Squicky, I think that is what people thought, that you were implying that Hatrack was only superior to some people because of failings in their RL...that Hatrack was somehow "less real" than off-line, which belittled those of us who HAVE met other Hatrackers IRL. I have never felt comfortable meeting anyone other than Hatrackers from on-line...and there are a few Hatrackers that I have no desire to meet. I don't like them, and don't really want to meet them.

I do think that I find a lot more people here that I can relate to than in a bar somewhere, or even in my college classes. There are some idiots (IMO), but that is fine....I can always ignore them, like I usually do IRL. On average though I think that a lot of Hatrackers ARE above average, and I enjoy the fact that I don't have to stop every 5 seconds to explain what I mean, or to justify my interest in some things. I do that a lot IRL, because most people just don't "get" it.

I keep weird hours so Hatrack suits me to a T, for some of the very reasons that Irami mentioned. I DO find it funny that on one hand he is denigrating us by saying that Hatrack is the intellectual equalivilent of cow tipping, and on the other hand he claims to enjoy posting here and getting any sort of response to it.

So much for being a snob....his boots are as full of cow patties as anyones are....

If not more so.

Kwea

[ December 31, 2004, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Kwea ]
 

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