Growing up, everything I knew about pet food I learned from commercials. We fed our cat Friskies and Whiskers dry food, because it was reasonably priced and he seemed to like it. When we got our new puppy a month and a half ago, I asked the people I work with what I should get. I work at the "#1" vet school in the country, after all. I was told I should give Libbey Iams or Eukanuba, so we started looking for a good price.
As I was searching, I started reading up on pet food and pet nutrition. Wow, what an eye-opener. Not only are Iams and Eukanuba way overpriced for what they are (mostly nutritionless filler that dogs can't digest), they also include preservatives that are known to cause cancer in dogs. Greeeeat.
However, they are better than a lot of the pet foods out there, like Alpo, Buckeye, Eagle Pack, Farm Pride, Joy, Command, Muenster, Ol' Roy, Purebred, Sport Mix, Tuffy's, Wayne, Pedigree, Kibble's n Bits, and most Purina brands. These contain "meat and bone meal" or "meat by-products", rather than "named" meats like chicken or beef.
So what exactly is nameless "meat" when it comes to pet food?
quote: At the rendering plant, slaughterhouse material, restaurant and supermarket refuse, dead stock, road kill, and euthanized companion animals are dumped into huge containers. A machine slowly grinds the entire mess. After it is chipped or shredded, it is cooked at temperatures of between 220 degrees F. and 270 degrees F. (104.4 to 132.2 degrees C.) for twenty minutes to one hour. The grease or tallow rises to the top, where it is removed from the mixture. This is the source of animal fat in most pet foods. The remaining material, the raw, is then put into a press where the moisture is squeezed out. We now have meat and bone meal.
The Association of American Feed Control Officials in its "Ingredient Definitions," describe meat meal as the rendered product from mammal tissue exclusive of blood, hair, hoof, hide, trimmings, manure, stomach, and rumen (the first stomach or the cud of a cud chewing animal) contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. In an article written by David C. Cooke, "Animal Disposal: Fact and Fiction," Cooke noted, "Can you imagine trying to remove the hair and stomach contents from 600,000 tons of dog and cats prior to cooking them?" It would seem that either the Association of American Feed Control Officials definition of meat meal or meat and bone meal should be redefined or it needs to include a better description of "good factory practices."
When 4-D animals are picked up and sent to these rendering facilities, you can be assured that the stomach contents are not removed. The blood is not drained nor are the horns and hooves removed. The only portion of the animal that might be removed is the hide and any meat that may be salvageable and not too diseased to be sold as raw pet food or livestock feed. The Minister of Agriculture in Quebec made it clear that companion animals are rendered completely.
Pet Food Industry magazine states that a pet food manufacturer might reject rendered material for various reasons, including the presence of foreign material (metals, hair, plastic, rubber, glass), off odor, excessive feathers, hair or hog bristles, bone chunks, mold, chemical analysis out of specification, added blood, leather, or calcium carbonate, heavy metals, pesticide contamination, improper grind or bulk density, and insect infestation.
Please note that this article states that the manufacturer might reject this material, not that it does reject this material.
quote:Rendering has long been considered one of the most environmentally friendly ways to dispose of animal carcasses, because it recycles them into useful fat and protein. By far the bulk of rendered material comes from slaughterhouses. But some plants also mix in road kill, the trimmings from supermarket delis, dead farm animals and euthanized pets from shelters. Los Angeles city and county shelters send more than 120,000 dead dogs and cats to be rendered in a typical year.
quote:The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said.
So if giving my dog Iams every day is the equivalent of eating nothing but french fries and corn dogs, feeding her "Ol' Roy" would be the equivalent of feeding her nothing but gristle and Soylent Green.
Posted by AvidReader (Member # 6007) on :
My puppy had organic, wheat free, lamb and rice puppy chow. I'm big on the organics.
I always heard it was old racehorses that went into the dog food. And inedible cow bits like hooves. I had no idea it was so much crap. Yuck!
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
We feed our cats Wellness now, on the advice of a friend who's a pet-nutrition expert. I read the ingredients and they're nearly all "named meats" so I feel okay about it. But we've fed them Iams, Nutro, and (briefly) Eagle Pack in the past, and after reading what you posted I'm horrified. Soylent Green indeed Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
So, tell me why it's so bad to feed a dog meat scraps from the table, because I've always been told not to, and never told why. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Just to clarify, Iams and Nutro don't have "meat" or "meat by-products" in them, as far as I know, so they're probably free of companion animals. It doesn't mean they're necessarily good foods for your pets, though, especially when you can get a filler-free, human-grade-meat food for pennies more. We pay $3 more every month and a half for Canidae than we would for Iams or Eukanuba, and since she needs less of it to be full, we're probably saving money in the end.
The problem is that most people, including vets, only know what the big pet food companies tell them. If the packaging says it's nutritious, and the dog eats it, who's going to know if it's cancerous, nutritionless, or cannibalistic?
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I think it's bad to feed dogs from the table because of the training and behavior aspect, not the food. If they learn that begging and pestering will be rewarded with food and attention, they'll keep doing them and getting worse.
The cats and I have a deal for when I'm eating something they like, such as yogurt: if they behave themselves, keep a respectful distance, and don't pester me while I'm eating, then they get to lick the bowl after I'm done. But if they pester, they get nothing. It's worked pretty well, I get to eat in peace and they get a little treat afterwards.
Edit: I may have misunderstood your question, sarcasticmuppet; I thought you meant actually handing the dogs table scraps while you're eating. If you meant just scraping the plates into the dog dish after dinner, I guess the only issue I can think of would be bones--cooked bones will splinter into deadly shards when the dog chews them.
[ January 05, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Stray ]
Posted by Risuena (Member # 2924) on :
My friend who's a vet and shows Shelties cooks for her dogs. She feeds them lots of rice, eggs, other meats and vegetables. It takes some extra effort but at least she knows what they're eating and she can control their salt, sugar and fat intake.
quote: So, tell me why it's so bad to feed a dog meat scraps from the table, because I've always been told not to, and never told why.
I'd think a big reason not to feed them scraps is that encourages begging which can be a really annoying habit. As to nutritional reasons not to feed them, the seasonings or preparation of the meat may be harmful for them. Because dogs and cats are so much smaller than humans, they're much more sensitive to salt and other seasonings. Also, most people don't know that onions can be as leathal as chocolate for pets.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
sarcastic, I think it really depends on the scrap. If it's a small, plain piece of turkey, I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it's mixed in with a lot of other ingredients, and the dog eats a lot of it, then it might get an upset tummy. Dogs and cats are notoriously sensitive about changes in diet, and don't react well to new foods. But it's not like giving them a bowl of stew is going to kill them, it'll probably just make them vomit.
A lot of dog nuts, actually, are feeding their dogs what's called a "BARF" diet (ha), "Biologically Appropriate Raw Food". http://www.barfworld.com/ Basically you buy a bunch of meat scraps and veggies and grind them up for the dog.
The main reason we don't feed our dog any table scraps is because we don't want her begging. Little scamp is so smart, she'd never let us forget it if we gave her even one treat off our plates. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
So my dog could essentially be eating other dogs?
I didn't see anything about the Science Diet brand of dogfood. Anyone know anything about that?
space opera
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
This isn't actually news. This info has been out there for a long time. Some of it alarmist but a lot of it true. Lead over on http://www.sunshineband.org/forums has a list of dog foods with their ingreedients.
AJ
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Science Diet is sort of a vet-sponsored scam, unfortunately. It's marketed as a very healthy, scientific, vet-approved food, but it's just as full of undigestible corn, soy, and rice fillers as Iams. And it's really expensive, given the ingredients.
Science Diet 20lb bag of Canine Maintenance Adult: $21.49
1. Corn (undigestible filler) 2. Poultry By-Product Meal (chicken skin, feathers, beaks, organs, and blood) 3. Soybean Meal (very undigestible filler) 4. Animal Fat (this is mentioned in one of the articles I quoted above) 5. Natural Flavors 6. BHA, PPG, Citric Acid (BHA is a known carcinogen in dogs)
Canidae 20lb bag of Human-Grade All Life Stages: $19.99
1. Chicken Meal 2. Turkey Meal 3. Brown Rice 4. White Rice 5. Lamb Meal 6. Chicken Fat
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Hmm. Thanks, Zeugma. We might need to make the switch. I'll have to check around and make sure that Canidae is available in our area first.
space opera
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Chances are it's not too close... the only one I found in southern Indiana is at Choice Equine Supply in Newburgh.
I haven't bought Chicken Soup before, so you might want to check on the price of it, but it comes highly recommended.
1. Chicken 2. turkey 3. chicken meal 4. turkey meal 5. whole grain brown rice 6. whole grain white rice
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Hey! Newburgh was my hometown!
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Well, it has excellent choice in pet supply stores.
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Well, I did check the link you provided for the Chicken Soup brand. There's a retailer just a few towns over. I think I'll call later today and check out the pricing.
space opera
Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
I'll swear by Flint River Ranch food. It's all human-grade, and very affordable. It's not full of filler, either. I spend about $20 every 4-5 weeks to feed my two cats (we have it the food out for them at all times, and the little one especially is a pig!), and shipping is free. I really recommend them. My vet even asked me once what I feed them, because she was so impressed with Valentine's coat!
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Cool!
I bet your dogs will loooove it. I hear the only potential problem with Chicken Soup is it being almost too rich for some dogs, so you'll definitely want to take your time in switching them over... but yeah, from everything I hear, it's pretty tasty.
We did get a friend of ours to try a piece of Libbey's Canidae... he said it tasted like burnt popcorn. Which probably explains why she likes it so much. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yeah, I've heard good things about Flint River, too, Vana! I like the look of those ingredients. Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Turns out it's very affordable; an 18 lb. bag is $15.99. But they don't make a large breed formula - just puppy, adult, and senior. Our vet has recommended a large breed formula. Guess I'll have to call them too now and ask about that.
space opera
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
I know the people who run it, and they use only the best ingredients. It's all made in human-food-grade kitchens with ingredients suitable for human consumption.
Dagonee
Posted by Space Opera (Member # 6504) on :
Ok, I guess large breed is no longer an issue. According to the vet I just spoke with, we should have switched Max to an adult formula at 6 months, precisely because he is a large breed.
space opera
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Hmm... you know, whenever I hear people talking about large breed foods, it's because they think it's a ripoff. Canidae, for example, only has two formulas... dog and senior. So puppies and adult dogs of all sizes eat the same food until they get really old. Maybe it makes a difference with feed-grade foods, but I think human-grade foods are good for the dog regardless of size.
Also, just to let you know... most veterinarians are not nutritionists (or behaviorists, but that's a whole different thread). Most of the time, the only education they get in pet foods is at conferences hosted by the companies that sell pet food. There's no "animal nutrition" course here, they can barely fit all of the other knowledge they need in to the four or five year program. In addition, a lot of vets get kickbacks for "prescribing" a certain brand of food, hence all of the Iams and Eukanuba stuff I see around here.
Edit: "here" being the Vet School, not Hatrack.
[ January 05, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Zeugma ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Wow, awesome, Dag, that food has broccoli and cantaloupe in it! Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
Our dogs love cantaloupe. Also watermelon, tomatoes, and zucchini. (Not sure about broccoli.)
They also love wasabi, especially the younger dog. I have no idea why.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
They have the hardest time finding kitchens to make the food, because they insist on only using kitchens dedicated to human-consumable foods, but many of them don't want to be known for making pet food.
Yet the pet food is actually human-consumable itself. They started not telling the kitchens what it was for, just giving them the recipe, and no one complained.
Dagonee
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
As crazy as I might be, I don't see much wrong with using rendered animals for feed, apart from the euthanization chemicals present in them. The level of processing reduces animal bodies into totally dissociated proteins. The proteins present in rendered dogs and cats aren't any different than the proteins in rendered pigs, which we have no problem eating ourselves.
Is it really so bad for animals to be "cannibalistic" in such a removed fashion? They're eating proteins that were once dogs, but the same thing happens daily in the food chain. Animals in the wild eat all kinds of meats. Chickens even eat each other.
I think I'm more concerned with the nutritional value of the food I'm giving my pets. Cats and dogs are carnivores - feeding them vegetarian diets is silly. As long as they're getting the proteins and nutrients they need and no carcignogenic chemicals, I don't really care where the protein came from. Heaven knows my cat doesn't.
Posted by Mike (Member # 55) on :
I'd be worried about BSE and the like. Anyone know if prions are destroyed in the rendering process?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Prions are not destroyed. I think thermal depolymerization is a better use for animal waste.
Dagonee
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
There's not much that will destroy prions. I'd bet there's a risk even after rendering, but I am not certain. [Er. what Dag said.]
Halo looks too cool, Dag.
I do pretty much agree with Annie. The specter of prion neuronal diseases does worry me, though. I think the risk is substantially decreased if what is fed to an animal is not from parts of the same species. Many diseases are species-limited.
[ January 05, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
I guess I just felt a pang over that because they were companion animals...they were someone's beloved pet at some point, at least hopefully. It seems sad to me that that's what happened to their bodies (at my parents' house we buried them in the backyard, since my husband and I aren't homeowners yet we have them cremated; we have a little memorial shelf with the urns and framed pictures of the ones who've passed). Then again, most of the rendered animals were euthanized in shelters, so I guess they didn't have anyone who loved them anymore. Intellectually I know there's no reason why the bodies shouldn't be put to some use, and it probably isn't hurting the animals who eat the food, but it just makes me a little sad. Perhaps it's hypocritical but for whatever reason I don't feel the same about livestock that were raised from day one with the intent of being killed and eaten someday.
[ January 05, 2005, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Stray ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
You know, Annie, I don't disagree with you in principle. The problem with the euthanized companion animals isn't that we're feeding them to our pets, it's that we're allowing so many to be born that we have to kill huge numbers of them every day. The LA Times article highlights the problem of what to do with all these carcasses... what do you do with all the bodies when one city or county produces 120,000 euthanized pets a year? You can't put them in a landfill, or they might contaminate the drinking water, and pet crematoriums are prohibitively expensive... we might as well put to good use these pets that we've created and then killed. The real solution to removing companion animals from the pet food chain is to spay and neuter the living pets that we have, so that shelters aren't left with more bodies than they can otherwise dispose of.
HOWEVER, given that, there are real health concerns for your pet if you use the kind of food that includes euthanized companion animals. As one of the articles I posted explained, rendering plants toss the animals in whole, including body bags, fur, teeth, flea collars, and the "lethal dose" of sodium phenobarbital. Not to mention the other sources of "meat" and "meat by-products" that go into the mix, like packages of spoiled supermarket meat (with the styrofoam!), spoiled slaughterhouse droppings, and restaurant garbage. So it's not exactly the same as if one dog ate another dog in the wild, it's far more polluted and toxic than that.
[ January 05, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Zeugma ]
Posted by Stray (Member # 4056) on :
Heh...guess I'm just a big softie, I responded to Annie's post on a purely emotional level, rather than Zeugma's much more rational reason for disapproving Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Heh, I'm truly a big softie at heart, but I've been working on a video project explaining, in every gory detail, how to anesthetize and spay a cat for the last several months. Nothing grosses me out any more.
Though I did come close to fainting when I had to video closeups of a brain removal procedure. Posted by Allegra (Member # 6773) on :
I ate dog food when I was 3. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Yet another good reason to buy human-grade dog food. Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
So why are corn, soybean, and rice 'fillers' undigestiable (Besides the cellulose, which we can't digest either).
from the first post
quote: The Food and Drug Administration has found "very, very low levels" of sodium pentobarbital--the chemical used to euthanize animals--in some brands of dog food, said Stephen Sundloff, director of the FDA's Center for Veterinary Medicine. The agency is investigating whether the traces are "of any significance at all," Sundloff said.
Until the levels are shown to be meaningful, this is as they said in the quote, meaningless. Have you checked the air quality near a busy road lately?
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
I feed my Basenji a kind of modified BARF diet. I use Sojourner Farms base when I don't have a lot of time, and add all sorts of yummy raw stuff for the little carnivore. Organs and bones and all. She seems to do okay. She also likes pizza and Doritos.
Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I feed all my dogs Pro Plan, made by Purina. Pointers are notorious for having skin problems, and since they are show dogs I have had to try a lot of different foods to keep their coats looking healthy. I've tried organic, human grade, everything...and nothing has come close to keeping them as healthy as Pro Plan. It's not cheap, but they seem to love the taste and also have beautiful shiny coats. It also uses primarily wheat and rice flours instead of corn, which can be harmful to a dog's digestive system.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
I just ordered a $5.00 dog food/treats sampler from the Flint River place. Free Shipping!!!
I have to say, they have the nicest website for ordering stuff I've ever seen.
Prices weren't too high if you're already spending the bucks to buy premium brands like Iams, Eukanuba or Science Diet.
I went to that stuff because the vet told me first dog (who was 17 when she finally got too old) had kidney failure due in part to the ash in the food I'd fed her as a puppy. I really thought that the premium stuff had to be the best for my new dog right from the start.
This thread is a real eye opener.
Thanks!
Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
Bob, I'm glad to hear that. I started out getting a sample, too, of the cat food, and Valentine loved it. And you're right, the website is very good. In fact, when I went to check on the price (I couldn't remember, but wanted to mention it), they noticed that I'd been there but not successfully placed an order, and sent me an e-mail to be sure that was correct. They're awesome. Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
Flint River looks awesome. I missed that before, Vana. Thanks for the heads-up, Bob.
Posted by Christy (Member # 4397) on :
Actually, after seeing my cat prefer beans and broccoli and devour my plants when I don't have some form of cat grass or veggie to give him, I disagree that cats and dogs are carnivores. That said, I have been trying to find foods with the first ingredients being poultry and/or fish rather than corn or rice (the beef ones are almost never really meat). I tried to feed my cat chicken and meat scraps (I'm a notoriously picky meat eater) and cottage cheese and egg for a while, but it was a bit too demanding. We use Iams currently, but you even have to be careful which type of Iams you buy.
Posted by Sharpie (Member # 482) on :
Yeah, I know they are more omnivorous than people realize, but Curie does love the meat! She will also eat asparagus, oatmeal, tacos (carefully avoiding the lettuce), sticks, paper, crayons, and cheerios. The BARF and Sojos type plans do use quite a lot of veggies. I try to keep her away from table scraps, but not because of the begging (Basenjis are world-class beggars). She just gets, um, gassy if she has too many table scraps.
Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
Here, we can get Whiskas and another brand that I can't remember at the moment. Only 2 choices. The vet advised that I feed Oberon, yon fat cat, fish on a regular basis because it will boost his immunse system. Hmm. Okay.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
quid...Flint River has free shipping. You could see if they'll send all the way to where you're at.
Posted by Highway to Hellen (Member # 6802) on :
I don't know what my pets are eating...but I know i am eating my pets.
Just funnin' Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Wow, y'all, I just can't tell you how happy it makes me to think of all these great Hatrack pets switching to nutritious, healthy human grade kibble.
I wish all pet owners had access to good, honest information about pet food ingredients and nutrition, rather than having to rely on advice from vets who believe whatever Nestle-Purina tells them. Heck, I know I was totally baffled when I looked at food ingredients pre-Libbey. Corn? Corn is good, right? Dogs like corn? What's the difference between "Chicken by-product", "Meat by-product", and "Chicken meal"??? It's so confusing.
For those of you switching from a filler-based food to a human-grade food, you might be in for some pleasant surprises... in addition to a smoother coat and generally healthier appearance, many dogs produce smaller stools on super-premium dog food, as they're able to digest more of it. And I know from experience that Libbey went from absolutely unholy gas problems to stink-free in the week it took us to gradually switch her from Science Diet to Canidae.
Cheaper, healthier, less stinky... one of life's few win-wins.
Unless you're a megacorp, I guess. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Smokey's Flint River sample pack arrived yesterday. I don't know how she knew the package was for her, but she accosted the UPS guy and danced around me while I brought the box to the table.
She's only had the fish & chips kibble so far -- used as treats, she LOVES it.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Ha, I wonder if she smelled it through all the packaging?
I'm glad she likes the taste of it! I don't know much about the positive effects of human-grade food on a big fluffy dog like Smokey, but on a bristly little stink-bomb like our Boxer, the change was amazing. Like with the gas. Did I mention the gas? Yeah, the gas was bad. Now it's not. End of story. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Oh, and her stools! I just have to mention how awesome her stools are. Nice and plump, very firm... heck, she's certainly got the finest stools I've ever had the pleasure of picking up. Boy howdy.
Though today they were green and looked a lot like mulch. I guess that's what happens when you feed them treats based primarily on chlorophyll. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I hereby declare page two of this thread to be The Poo Page. All poo-related posts are on-topic.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Sara, the answer is, in the following order if one method fails:
1. Air Horn 2. Hose 3. BB Gun
Aimed at the dog if unattended, the owner otherwise.
Dagonee *Note, options 1, 2, and 3 may not be legal in all states.
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
You would be so proud of me. Today I found the shop closest to me that carries Felidae and bought a small bag. We'll have to see what the kitties think of it. Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Wooo, Felidae!! I don't know a whole lot about cat food, but I have a friend who swears by it! Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
I love this thread!
We currently feed our cat Nutro. Flint river is only slightly more expensive, but is it that much better? I read the ingredients and they seem comparable. Does anyone have any experience with either cat food?
I suppose Flint River's advantage is that its food is supposedly "human grade". But what does that mean exactly? Is it really FDA approved for human consumption?
quote: Nutro: $15.99 8.5 lbs
Chicken meal, ground rice, corn gluten meal, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of natural vitamin E), dried beet pulp, natural flavors, rice flour, rice protein concentrate, lamb meal (source of lamb flavor), sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of natural vitamin E), dehydrated alfalfa meal, oat fiber, yeast culture, potassium chloride, menhaden fish oil, choline chloride, dried egg product, taurine, dl-methionine, vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, inositol, dried bacillus licheniformis fermentation extract, dried bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), dried chicory root, cranberry powder, niacin, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, biotin, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium iodate, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), vitamin D3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid.
[ January 14, 2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
vwiggin, I'm afraid I don't know much about cat food. I'd be nervous about seeing that much corn in a dog food, but maybe cats are okay with it?
How are the Hatrack pets who've been switched to human-grade foods doing? Do they like it? Does it like them? Can we talk about poo some more? Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Whew, I thought I killed this thread Zeugma.
I don't know if that much corn is good for cats. If anyone knows I'd be much obliged. Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
Smokey has only had the sample pack, but the big bag 'o food has been ordered. She loved the samples. When Bob mixed it with the old food she picked out the new stuff and ate it first.
She also, while we're eating dinner, will take a huge mouthful of food, bring it over to the table, set it down, and eat off the floor next to us. What's up with that?
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Ha, I don't know why exactly they do it, but I know a lot of them do. Some dogs prefer to be fed on cookie sheets or other flat surfaces, rather than in bowls. They'll let you know this by tipping their bowl over and eating it all off the floor. Libbey will occasionally grab a mouthful of food, dash over to her rug in the living room, and eat it there. She ate an entire meal that way last night when she knocked a bunch of water onto the floor near her bowls and didn't want to step in it. (Hey, after two months of mopping up pee off the floor, I can live with a little spilled water for a while!) Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: She also, while we're eating dinner, will take a huge mouthful of food, bring it over to the table, set it down, and eat off the floor next to us. What's up with that?
She wants to eat with her pack, of course. Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I echo the sentiments that this thread is very informative, by the way.
I, too, am curious about the best brands for cats.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Okay, vwiggin, I looked around on the web for info about cat food. Seems like it's basically the same as with dog food... you don't want to be feeding them "meat", "meat by-products" or cancer-causing "BHA/BHT" preservatives. As with dogs, corn is mostly a non-digestible filler for cats. So it seems like the Flint River cat food isn't really a good choice. However, there are lots of premium cat foods out there that look pretty good.
Felidae (We feed our dog the dog version of this, and it's fantastic. We have a friend who gives his cats Felidae, and they seem to do well on it.)
Wellness Super5Mix (I have to say, I love pet foods that list ingredients like "Cranberries, Blueberries, Flaxseed, Eggs, Peas, Taurine, Garlic, Alfalfa Leaf, Spirulina, Norwegian Kelp, Whole Apples, Zucchini, Sweet Potatoes, and Yucca Schidigera")
How easy these are to find depends on where you live. I can easily get any of these in our small town, the top three at a local pet store, and the fourth at our local hippie grocery store. Sometimes you can find good stuff at farm supply stores, or at boutique pet shops... you're definitely not going to find any of this at big-box pet stores or supermarkets. However, these four aren't the only good cat foods out there... I think a good rule of thumb would be to look for anything that has several sources of good, named protein like Chicken and Turkey in the top 6 ingredients, no unnamed meat or by-products, no corn or soy fillers, and no BHA/BHT. I'm also a little nervous about foods whose ingredients are more than half weird-sounding chemicals I've never heard of.
Good luck!
Edit: Oh, and regarding the difference between "Meat" and "Meal", as in "Chicken Meat" vs. "Chicken Meal"... "meal" is simply meat that's had all of the water pressed out of it. It's actually better to see "X meal" high on the ingredient list than "X meat", because the ingredients are listed by weight, and a lot of the "X meat" is going to be water weight. So if you're looking at one food that lists "Chicken Meat, Corn Gluten Meal, Fish Meat" as the top 3 ingredients, it's entirely possible that there's way more Corn Gluten Meal in the food than there is actual Chicken protein. "Chicken (or turkey, beef, lamb, etc) Meat" isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if everything after it is also a good ingredient, but be aware that it's often a trick to make you think you're feeding more animal protein than you actually are. "Meal" is not a bad thing at all.
[ January 24, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Zeugma ]
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
You know, that article does bring up an interesting question of what animal pounds do with their animals once they euthanize them. I had always assumed that they cremated them after killing them through some kind of lethal injection.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Honestly, SS, it probably makes some sense to at least "use" the poor things after we kill them. Unfortunately, they're not a particularly healthy source of food for our pets. Cremation would seem to be a much better alternative to disposing of the corpses, but I do sympathize with the prohibitive cost of building animal crematoriums.
Again, the real solution is to prevent pet over-population in the first place by spaying and neutering our pets.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
I don't know if making a profit off of it is really encouraging the local government to look into alternatives....
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
I don't think they're making a profit off of it... the guy they interviewed in that article I posted said that he was surprised that people were angry at his rendering factory for processing the animals, because he thought he was doing the community a favor by processing them for free. I think that, if anything, the local governments lose a lot of money on the whole pet euthanasia system.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
quote:So it seems like the Flint River cat food isn't really a good choice. However, there are lots of premium cat foods out there that look pretty good.
They’re dogs. They eat dirt on their own. They eat dead rotting things on their own. I think they’ll be fine.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
Hey, and kids like to eat paste and boogers, so you're a moron if you think they should be eating anything better.
Paste and boogers for everyone!
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I found the information in it to be fascinating. Are there any updates from the people using the human-grade pet foods? I have a working dog, so I try to feed him the best I can afford. So far that has been Iams, but I can pay a bit more if the quality is really so much better.
And speaking of brainwashing by large pet food corporations, not too long ago I went to a goat seminar that was partly hosted by Purina. Apparently they now make goat feed, and they claim it's wonderful. Personally, I didn't like the looks of it and decided to stick with my local brand of goat feed plus hay, but I bet they got a lot of new customers that day. The seminar was packed.
--Mel
Posted by aiua (Member # 7825) on :
I read out to my sister (11) what was in the Science Diet stuff and she went, "Eeew! I'm not eating their food ever again!"
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
So far I've looked at two of the brands recommended: Canidae and Flint River. Unfortunately, Flint River is more than twice the cost of Iams, so it is right out. Canidae is only a few dollars more per 40-lb bag, and there are several feed stores here that carry it.
The Halo Pets website kept breaking my internet connection, so I never actually was able to look at their products. Perhaps I'll try again later.
I'll probably try the Canidae, unless there are any other suggestions.
--Mel
Posted by ludosti (Member # 1772) on :
I've been very pleased with the Felidae we've been using for our cats.
Long anecdote that is a little gross: Our tiniest kitten (that we got last December) seems to have a sensitive system and is susceptible to diahrea (and what we call poopy bum syndrome - she gets a dirty bum and then ends up making it all sore by cleaning it too much, so she ends up with a little bald red bum). Earlier this summer, we ran out of food. The closest store we can buy it at is about 35 miles from our house, but is close to one of the customers I visit frequently, so I'm the one that buys the food. There was some miscommunication between my husband (who feeds the kitties) and myself and the kitties ran out of food. So, hubby picked up a bag of normal stuff at the grocery store. Our poor little kitten's poopy bum syndrome got worse during this time. As soon as we got her back on Felidae, it cleared right up and she has been much better since. Posted by Avadaru (Member # 3026) on :
I work at a pet store, and we sell Eukanuba, Science Diet, Nutro (both Max and Natural Choice), and Wellness. Our biggest seller is Science Diet, followed by Nutro. I convert people all the time to feeding Wellness simply by pointing out the difference in the ingredients. Science Diet is just a crappy food, period. Wellness uses all human-grade ingredients, and doesn't put in anything that shouldn't be there. My dog has skin allergies so I have him on the fish and sweet potato diet, and his coat is healthier than it has ever been.
Posted by breyerchic04 (Member # 6423) on :
We feed both our dogs and our cat Sensible Choice, their respective foods (older dog, adult, and adult cat).
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
tCW:
Smokey is totally loving the Flint River stuff. She gets it exclusively and self-regulates her intake. I order about 10 lbs every 7 or 8 weeks, if I'm tracking correctly. They've been doing free shipping and it just doesn't seem to be that big an expense to me over the "premium" brands I used to buy.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
I'm actually trying Canidae for the first time. It was used to put weight on one of the puppies in my litter with good sucess and my own is a bit on the thin side, so I'm trying her on it. I feed Costco, which is basically relabelled Nutro at the moment, and Ciara is on Iams weight control, because she needs the filler for volume to make her feel full without getting fat.
AJ
Posted by theCrowsWife (Member # 8302) on :
Bob, I should mention that my dog is very, very large. He's an Anatolian Shepherd/Great Pyrenees cross that's a little over a year old. He'll be well over 100 lbs when he's full grown. When he was a bit younger he would go through a 40-lb bag of Iams in about a month. Now that his growth has slowed down his appetite has dropped a bit, so I'm guessing that the 40 lbs will now last about a month and a half or so.
Even if I figure that he will eat a little bit less of the super premium dog food, Flint River is still out of our price range for him. It's too bad, it looks like good stuff.
--Mel
Posted by xnera (Member # 187) on :
I ordered some sample kits of Flint River last week as Raina's Christmas present this year.
Here's a photoshoot of Raina I did some time ago.
Posted by Zeugma (Member # 6636) on :
We've still got our (now over a year old) pup on human-grade food, though not the Canidae anymore, because like many Boxers, she's got some food allergies. Lamb doesn't seem to cause any problems, so we tried California Natural Lamb and Rice for a couple of months, but that gave her consistently runny stools (yay poo!). So the great folks at our local pet food store recommended Solid Gold Lamb and Rice, with less oil and more fiber, and she's been on it for probably 8 or 9 months now.
She's a very healthy dog, no signs of food-related problems (very little gas, wonderful little stools, very few "eye-boogers", and her coat is gorgeous), and she's incredibly strong, energetic, and muscular. I don't think she has any fat on her. That's one thing I've noticed about these human-grade foods she's been on... there's no "junk food" in them, like the sprayed-on grease that big food manufacturers add for "palatability", so she doesn't go crazy for it. We fill her bowl whenever it's empty, and she eats when she's hungry, but it's nothing exciting for her. But her food is for nutrition, not fun, she gets lots of BBQ lamb jerky and vanilla yogurt drops when it's time for treats, so she seems pretty happy with the arrangement.
She's a 50lb dog, and a 33 pound bag of her food costs about $40 and lasts a month and a half to two months, so we're pretty happy about the cost. I don't think it'd be much cheaper to feed her a lower-quality food, and the peace of mind is a nice bonus. Posted by Lynx (Member # 8760) on :
I got the Flint River sample pack... two actually and my cats HATE it! *sigh* I was so excited about it being all good for them and my one cat just wouldn't eat! She followed me all over the house and cried and cried. I even tried mixing it with her old food and she wouldn't eat any of it, she didn't even pick out the old food she just cried so I dumped it out today and gave her old food back and she ate and ate. It's too bad, seems like a great company and good food.
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
Try Halo pet. Posted by Samuel Bush (Member # 460) on :
Zeugma, I read through your first post on this thread and kind of quickly scanned through the rest. I plan to go back and read it all later, but for now I just want to say that the first thing that crossed my mind was, “Hey, that sounds an awful lot like what I’ve heard that they put in hot dogs.”
At any rate, your point is well taken, it’s all quite yukky to contemplate. (Although . . . when my dog was alive, considering some of the stuff I saw him eat and the garbage cans he raided when he got the chance, I doubt he was too worried about what they put in his dog food.)
Dang, I guess now I’ll have to stop serving my buddies kibble snacks when they come over to watch football.
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So my dog could essentially be eating other dogs?![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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