Personally, I really liked Phantom, and Andrew Lloyd Webber isn't the worst composer to ever live (I'd give that to whoever was responsible for Cabaret ).
And it was immensely popular at Provo Town Center Movie theatre. We couldn't even get tickets to the matinee, and had to wait in line outside the auditorium for a seat to the (packed) evening show. So to me, at least, the "limping" is a little unnoticable.
[ January 05, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: sarcasticmuppet ]
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I agree with much of what OSC said, but not at all to the same degree. He's right about a lot of what he said, the singing wasn't operatic, the deformity was more like scarring from a burn than a hideous deformity. There were many silly little things that made me go "yeah, right", or "oops".
However, I enjoyed the film. I enjoyed it in a state of suspended disbelief but I enjoyed it nevertheless.
Oh and the music? For worst music and lyrics I vote "Titanic: A New Musical"
[ January 05, 2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
I haven't seen it, but reading his reviews I know one thing...
OSC doesn't know much about music.
I have listened to all os Wicked, and it is good, but not better than POTO, or a lot of other musicals on Broadway.
And anyone OTHER than Crawford as Phantom is not an improvment.
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
Oh, c'mon, Kwea. You can't tell me that you're a fan of Crawford's ridiculously nasal squeaking?
Posted by Annie (Member # 295) on :
Andrew Lloyd Weber works for the KGB.
Posted by Kwea (Member # 2199) on :
lol....
Posted by WheatPuppet (Member # 5142) on :
If that's the case, stay away from his umbrella. KGB operatives have ricin pellet-shooting umbrellas. Not just some of them, all of them. Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
Did you know that in some cultures giving someone an umbrella means you love them?
Posted by Joldo (Member # 6991) on :
Did you know getting sent a carp means you're on a mafia hit list?
Anyways, I liked Phantom. I think OSC slipped into an incredibly culturally elitist mode here, which normally he seems to despise. Shameful, but his columns tend to follow that trend.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I wonder what happens if you send someone an umbrella with fish on it?
And I'd heard that though the actors who played Christine and Raoul had classical voice training before Phantom, Gerard Butler, aside from a high school rock band had none, and had voice lessons after being cast as the Phantom.
Common sense would dictate that this is a very stupid thing to do. But Hollywood's not known for it's intelligence, is it? Card is right that for PotO you need to sing, and sing very well. But I think Butler rose to the occasion quite well, and to sing as well as he did with as little training as he had he needed some serious raw talent.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
I enjoyed the singing a lot more than I thought I would. Something about it not being operatic made it go down easy, which is good cause a good 90% of the movie was the music. Plus, movies are more intimate than plays so the more subtle singing was fitting, I thought.
I also liked the Phantom's singing voice. I hated it in the trailer, but seeing it (hearing it?) in context made sense with the character, to me.
Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
Andrew Lloyd Webber can write catchy melodies but totally sucks at harmony. As a result even though the melodies are catchy they are also trite.
For example I love "Angel of Music", but on analysis it is predictable and much of his other stuff with crashing chords (that I've played as an accompanist) isn't that great).
AJ
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Usually I disagree with Card's more extreme opinions on movies, but here, I thought he was right on. I saw Phantom for the first time a couple weeks ago, and it really grated on me in a way that goes beyond a simple bad adaptation.
I mean, I'm a huge fan of Les Misérables, Man of La Mancha, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers ... so this isn't prejudice against musicals. The lyrics of the songs were way below par, as far as cleverness goes. The characters' choices often seemed bizarre or contradictory ... and now, thanks to you guys, I have "Masquerade" running through my head again. Thanks a LOT! Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I kinda liked Masquerade. I liked how this upbeat song had some pretty dark lyrics. And the guy in the movie with the two-toned mask had my eyes the entire scene.
Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Half the chorus were wearing two toned masks
I thought the masquerade scene was pretty darn cool.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
There was one guy in particular in front whose mask was white on the left side and black on the right, and when he turned you only saw one color. He was the coolest.
Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
Given that he didn't like the stage show, I don't see why he saw the movie. I griped about Phantom for years based on the fact that it was popular. But we were given tickets to the touring production. Better than an Alannis Morrissette concert, worse than a hockey game, in my very subjective opinion.
But I have to agree with the dude in "Forget Paris" who said one of the major songs was lifted from "School days, school days, good old golden rule days."
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Having heard five ALW musicals and seen two live (one twice) I think I do like his music and I am annoyed when people dislike it- I mean I can understnd disliking The New Starlight Express because of the roller skating and Cats because the plot is *ahem* weak (but honestly that's SO not the point), and Joseph and the Technicolour Dreamcoat because it's a mixture of stuff, but Phantom of the Opera, as musicals with recitative go, is pretty good.
Jesus Christ Superstar is very good, although it's the only one of the five that I've never seen a staged/movied version of.
EDIT: The New Starlight Express I saw in London, England aged about seven and as far as I know, that was the best production. Cats was better in London (rotating stage) than on Broadway.
Oh wait- is Evita ALW, too? I know bits of Evita. That's also good.
[ January 05, 2005, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I like Evita. Joseph is pretty good. The only thing I know about JCSS is that we used it to open our HS band's religious halftime show.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
It's very powerful, at least music-wise.
Posted by Puppy (Member # 6721) on :
Cats is cool because a better writer wrote all the lyrics Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
I've seen PotO, Evita, and SLE on stage so far. I'm going to JCSS in a couple weeks.... at least I think I am, Mom says the tickets haven't arrived yet, but it's one of the season pass shows so I'm fairly sure.
Oh, and Puppy, TS Eliot didn't write ALL the "lyrics". We just returned Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats to the library before Christmas and Heather (my 11 year old) enjoyed identifying which songs didn't appear in the book. Naturally, at the moment I can't remember for sure which ones, I'm pretty sure that a couple of the Grizabella songs (there are 3 or 4 total with her name in the title, plus Memories, which Heather considers to be a Griz song), I think Journey and Bustopher, possibly a couple others. And several were changed from the original poetry, minor stuff like having them sung in first person (i.e. Rum Tum Tugger) Myabe we'll check it out again so I can compare again. =)
[ January 05, 2005, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Goody Scrivener ]
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Surprisingly, Trevor Nunn's wife's name is Imogen.
Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
Oh, you meant that writer. Never mind, then. Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
I was pleasantly suprised to find that elements of "Memory", although not from the Practical Cats book, are T.S. Eliot.
EDIT: Rhapsody on a Windy Night:
quote: ...
Half-past one, The street lamp sputtered, The street lamp muttered, The street lamp said, "Regard that woman Who hesitates towards you in the light of the door Which opens on her like a grin. You see the border of her dress Is torn and stained with sand, And you see the corner of her eye Twists like a crooked pin."
...
[ January 05, 2005, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Troubadour (Member # 83) on :
Teshi - Starlight Express has always been on skates - I don't see how using rollerblades somehow undermines the inherent dignity of singing crappy songs while doing a congo on wheels.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
When you're seven, it means a lot.
My first singing performance in public (in front of my year 3 or 4 class, acapella), was a rendition of "Crazy", with me singing Rusty's part. My classmates must have thought I was insane.
Starlight Express will always have a special place in my heart.
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
He is right about the lyrics though. If an ALW musical is good, it's usually good because of Tim Rice. (Joseph and the ATD, Evita, JCSS, Aspects of Love...)
His orchestrations are horrendously boring. He can't ever think of anything NEW to do...he's found a formula and sticks with it because...well I don't know why. Is it because he's been churning out musicals for way too long? Is it because he's not talented enough to try something new to do?
I think Phantom is all of the WORST ALW characteristics rolled into one....and Evita. Joseph and Cats have some beautiful music. Original and new and fresh music. Starlight express isn't even bad.....
Anyway, I'm on a tangent. Smack me!
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
*smacks Narnia with a herring*
Posted by Goody Scrivener (Member # 6742) on :
Teshi, my children will love you forever.... Rusty is their favorite song too!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Hee hee .
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
Not generally a fan of ALW. Joseph can be a WONDERFUL show, but much of that is in spite of trite music that is so very harmonically uninteresting, borderline juvenile. I accompanied for Joseph one summer (the entire summer) and the first time I started playing through the score I was seriously disappointed -- although I think it does have a couple of real musical gems in it. I've seen the PotO stage production three times and haven't hated it, although the things that I like work IN SPITE of the music, not because of it.
Am I being too opinionated? Feel free to chalk this up to what I have affectionately termed "snotty-music-major syndrome," of which I must admit I'm terribly afflicted. I've realized that I may very well be the stupid one and I'm just too bullheaded to recognize it. Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
I liked the phantom, and the actor has some talent in singing... the problem is what OSC said as well, he couldn't quite... hit his notes properly.
But I loved the movie and disagree with OSC in general on this one...
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
JemmyGrove, you can't be too opinionated on this board.
I still haven't seen the movie version. My high school girls are all swooning over it and they've been bugging me to go see it for a week now...I suppose I'll have to suck it up and go one of these days. It does look like it's visually a stunning movie, so it shouldn't be too big of a loss.
oh and muppet, thanks for the smack. I needed that! Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
But is that kid from Phantom going to play Ender?
Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
No no no!! The kid from charlie and the chocolate factory is CLEARLY the right choice for Ender. ( )
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
How about we have Oompa Loompas play the students of the battle school. Posted by Narnia (Member # 1071) on :
Hey YEAH!! And Jonny Depp could play....Bean.
Posted by JemmyGrove (Member # 6707) on :
WARNING! There is some language. But funny stuff, there is also.
quote: [Il Muto seems to be about a giant pink poodle-lady who may or may not be having an affair with a page boy who may or may not be an actual boy, played by an actual girl (Christine). People watching the movie who have never seen a real opera make a note not to start going now. We know that the Phantom is going to wreak havoc on the show because we have seen him playing with his Opera Dollhouse of Crazy.]
CARLOTTA [shoving Christine]: Outta mah way, toad!
THE PHANTOM [backstage]: GRUMBLE GRUMBLE TOAD RASSAFRASSIN’ GRUMBLE…
CARLOTTA: I am so gladda to have my throata spritz!
[The Phantom has switched Carlotta’s throat spray with something a**-nasty. Let’s see if she notices.]
CARLOTTA: *spritz spritz* It taste-a little different tonighta, but—AHHHHOOOOAAAAACKKKKUUUUUGHHHHHHHHHA!
CAST OF IL MUTO: Flee the stage! Run for your lives!
Posted by gingerjam (Member # 7113) on :
Les Miserables is definately my favourite musical, i think it's because it has such a idealistic and tragic story but also heaps of meaning and purpose...and i've seen it a bunch of times. I like Evita too, but that's the only one ALW musical i can handle, his music really all sounds very the same to me. Kinda flashy typical stereotype 'musical' to me. Give me Boubil and Schonberg any day!
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: BUQUET THE STAGEHAND: …And in the book, he’s got a hole where his nose ought to be, and his hands are cold and he’s like a cadaver all over!
SOME DANCER: But what about in the movie?
BUQUET: In the movie? He’s got a terrible… third degree… SUNBURN!
THE DANCERS: *scream and faint dead away*
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
quote: THE PHANTOM: NO ONE EVER EXPECTS ME!
*dies laughing*
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
quote: FIRMIN: Whoa, check out the blonde with the headlights.
MADAME GIRY: Zat ees mah DOTTAIR.
FIRMIN: Oh. Well, what about the hot brunette?
MADAME GIRY: Zhe es LAIK mah dottair.
ANDRE: Hey, we’re all French, right?
FIRMIN: Last time I checked, yes.
ANDRE: Well, then why is she the only one with a French accent?
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oh, and question I've been meaning to ask. What is with the hand at the level of your eye thing? I don't understand it.
Posted by sarcasticmuppet (Member # 5035) on :
I had to ask too, and my roommate was able to tell me. Keeping your hand at the level of your eye means the Phantom can't strangle you with his noose. Your hand is in the way, see.
It's explained only slightly when Mdm. Giry says it to Boqet, who then puts his hand at his neck to stop the oncoming noose. I only picked it up the second time I saw it.
Posted by Teshi (Member # 5024) on :
Oooooooooooooooooooooooh.
Cool. Thanks sm .
EDIT: She could have said something like, "do it so the phantom can't strange you." he might have remembered better!
[ January 10, 2005, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Teshi ]
Posted by Vadon (Member # 4561) on :
That's what I figured, then again, I watched an episode of an anime where the basic same thing happened. ^_^
Posted by Eaquae Legit (Member # 3063) on :
I still like colm Wilkinson best as Phantom. And despite the negativity, I want to see the movie anyway.
Posted by Carrie (Member # 394) on :
Movie Spoiler (kinda), in case anyone cares at this point...
The Point of No Return scene was awesome. I wasn't a fan of the Phantom's voice up until that part, and the transformation Christine undergoes is just downright impressive to watch.
Other than that, I thought the guys were pansies who sometimes decided to sing properly and Minnie Driver badly overacted a part which calls for bad overacting.
I liked it.
Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
Saw Phantom over the weekend. OSC is absolutely right about it. Although I like ALW's songs more than OSC does, the comments he made about the movie are dead on.
The possibilities of film were not explored at all in this retelling. Every change they made was for the worse in comparison to a live production.
What I didn't see him comment on was the absolutely bizarre failure to synch the overdubbed vocal track with the lip movements during MOST of the songs. Now, it should be possible to do that correctly if one is working on as high a budget film as this had to have been. I mean, the actors go into a booth, they watch the thing on screen and sing it like they did during shooting.
But sometimes the lyrics had changed (again...why?) and sometimes they just couldn't sing along with themselves. It was awful.
It was like watching a foreign filmed dubbed in English. Except it was an English film dubbed in English.
Very disconcerting.
Okay. They guy playing the Phantom -- his first and last songs are the same thing, but he should sing them differently. The emotion is completely different. I think they used the same recording twice. It was so bad the first time through and fit so perfectly at the end.
I wanted to like this one. Really I did. But I now must go back to see the stage performance again to purge this disaster from my memory. I really think that a high-school production would've been better.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
quote:It was like watching a foreign filmed dubbed in English. Except it was an English film dubbed in English.
Is that the one where they dubbed over Arnold's voice? Funniest movie ever.
[ January 18, 2005, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: PSI Teleport ]
Posted by Ela (Member # 1365) on :
I saw Phantom today, and while I enjoyed it, I also have to say that many of OSC's comments were right on target. I especially agreed with him about the quality of the voices - they were not operatic voices, for the most part.
Bob, JaneX and I noticed the lip-synching, too, it was way too obvious.
I enjoyed the music, though, and didn't notice any particular problems with the harmonies, to tell the truth.
OSC has a good point, as well, when he states that many of the characters' actions make no sense.
The costumes were fabulous.
But I wondered whether Christine wasn't getting a little cold standing outside with snow falling in all those low cut dresses. Posted by MyrddinFyre (Member # 2576) on :
Hehehe.
Wow, I didn't even notice the lip-synching trouble. But then again, I'm way too easily impressed by quality costumes and sets and I spent many of the scenes just examening the trimmings of a dress or suit the entire time...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Yup, that's the movie where they cast Arnold as Hercules, but decided that American audiences wouldn't be able to understand him. They dubbed somebody else's voice over all his lines. It is *sooo* weird watching the Arnold but not hearing the Arnold.
Posted by Theca (Member # 1629) on :
I saw it Sunday. I liked it, although I liked the stage version three years ago better. The phantom did not feel ...tortured enough. He was too human. Perhaps that was just the natural result of the cameras and lighting, or maybe he just didn't act or sing the way I would have liked, I'm not sure which. I didn't feel any of the rather painful emotions I am used to feeling when I watch the Phantom.
I thought the women all did just fine, Christine's voice didn't bother me at all and I thought she looked perfect. The scenes and outfits looked amazing too.
I knew that everyone except Carlotta did their own singing so I didn't notice any sync problems. I noticed that there was not enough explanation of the hand at the level of the eyes thing and there were a few other changes that should have been left alone. I finally understood how Carlotta was made to sound like a toad, though. I never understood that part before. And I understood a bit more about Christine's father and how his words affected her relationship with Phantom.
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