Why are fathers in most sitcoms such morons? They always seem to be trying to escape from their kids. They'd rather go golfing than spend time with their children (Raymond, Yes, Dear, a ton of other shows) Most of them can't even change a diaper, let alone disapline a kid. What the hell? And if a man does get involved with his kids he's considered a wimp or something because he's not goofing off or watching sports with his dumb friends. One of the few shows that shows fatherhood in a favourable light is the Bernie Mac show. Those kids aren't his but he disiplines them, spends time with them and gets changed by them. Not like most of these moronic dads...
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
Idiot characters are entertaining, and it's more socially acceptable to be mean to men than women.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's not entertaining for me. One thing I hated about Baby Boom was just because she's some sort of lawyer or business person or whatever it automatically means she can't change a diaper. How hard is that? I was changing my cousin's diaper at 12! And in Three Men and a Baby, what's more cringe worthy than watching 3 Inept men with a kid? It's just not amusing. It's stupid and drives me nuts >.<
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
This is amazing. I was just reading a slate article on this two seconds ago:
quote:It's tempting to register a feminist complaint about the message these shows convey—that they perpetuate the view that women shouldn't expect autonomy or fulfillment in romance and marriage. They do, after all, play to a certain male fantasy: living the gluttonous, irresponsible, self-absorbed life of an infant and basking in the unconditional love of a good-looking woman. <vwiggin: God knows I love that fantasy. Shan are you reading this?>
But it's not just men watching these shows, and, as Alessandra Stanley suggested in a review of the country western sitcom Rodney, it's not just a male id they express. As the bitter, recent book The Bitch in the House and the extreme popularity of the delightful, tendentious Desperate Housewives seem to indicate, the war of the sexes has shifted from the workplace back to the household and the bedroom. In portraying husbands as lousy parents, marginal breadwinners, and repellant sexual partners, the fat-husband sitcoms convey a persecution fantasy that rises from the same swamp of resentments as these books do: "Yes, I'm supercompetent and I even look great, despite all the crap I have to deal with, and, yes, that's my husband over there, the fat, useless one scratching his nuts."
If family sitcoms really are a Rorschach blot for their male and female viewers, then we're either in really bad shape or coping surprisingly well—in the same scenarios in which women perhaps identify their own desperation and martyrdom, men seem to find sweet, elemental fulfillment.
[ January 09, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: vwiggin ]
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
OSC actually talks about this exact phenomenon in this article. Posted by raventh1 (Member # 3750) on :
Not to mention when they are good parents and clean and not slobs, they are made out to be gay.
Posted by SteveRogers (Member # 7130) on :
quote: I was changing my cousin's diaper at 12!
Does that mean you were twelve? Or was your cousin twelve? Or was it at twelve o' clock today?
[ January 09, 2005, 08:35 PM: Message edited by: SteveRogers ]
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
I haven't been impressed with men or women in sitcoms. I don't think it's a male-bashing phenomena at all. For every show you can list that has a dumb husband, I can throw in one that has a dumb wife. Some have both.
That was one of the big reasons Bill Cosby did The Cosby Show in the first place, to have at least one show where the parents were smarter than their kids.
Posted by mr_porteiro_head (Member # 4644) on :
I was also changing my sibling's diapers when I was 12 years old.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
This is why I hate family sitcoms so much. The smart mouthed kids, the incompetent parents. I don't know which is worse, the hyper sweet functional families or the disfunctional ones. Both are so annoying!
Posted by Foust (Member # 3043) on :
Then don't watch them.
But I will defend Everybody Loves Raymond. I think that show nails a lot of family relationships, especially between the males.
Posted by Fitz (Member # 4803) on :
Deleted because of redundancy.
[ January 09, 2005, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Fitz ]
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
If Raymond nails your relationship with your brothers/fathers. . . man, get a family counselor soon.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Posted by James Tiberius Kirk (Member # 2832) on :
Notable exception: Cliff Huxtable, The Cosby Show.
--j_k
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Yes, both him and Clair were cool parents. Smart, successful, except it always annoys me in shows when the kid wants to do something off the beaten path the parents just smother that. Like, why should they care if the oldest wants to start a wilderness store instead of becoming a lawyer like her mother? Or, in some other show where the kid wanted to be an actor, why not let him? Not everyone wants to get a normal sort of job. -_-
Posted by jexx (Member # 3450) on :
I think that The Cosby Show addressed that, though, the wanting unconventional jobs.
I didn't know how to change a baby's diaper until I was five months pregnant and left alone with a baby while his mother went to the store. I was sooo sure I could totally do it. I put the diaper on inside out and back-to-front (stupid disposables with no plastic outsides to indicate correct alignment ).
Thank goodness my husband took extra leave the first month and a half of our son's life!
Posted by Noemon (Member # 1115) on :
That's funny jexx!
I've never changed a diaper in my life. I don't think that Christine has either.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
It's completely revolting, but nessasary.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
Married...with Children had a moronic husband, wife, and children.
It was the best. Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
Noemon, I hadn't changed a diaper in my life until they taught me in the hospital a day or so after having my son. I never really liked kids until I had my own.
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
I changed a diaper for the first time the night we got the girls.
(But the original point stands, because I don't think any of us is saying we were incompetent at it or unable to pick it up.)
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
And another thing, why is it that in order for a man to be manly on television he has to act like a stupid immature jerk? If he doesn't he's either gay or weak. What the heck is up with that? And can't they have smart people on television without making them prissy and irratating and having whole episodes geared towards taking them down a notch?
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
The answer is this: Americans like to feel mildly superior to our comedic heroes. It's okay if our dramatic heroes are slightly superhuman, but our comedic protagonists have to be at least mildly worse-off than we are -- or than we perceive ourselves -- in order for us to find them funny. I don't know why.
Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
I miss Home Improvement.
Tim was a bumbling idiot at work, and with any home improvement stuff at home, but he loved his wife and kids, and was always trying to do better. His fence talks with Wilson, were always about how he could relate better to his wife or his kids.
One of the best episodes was when his son blew off a college entrance exam because he had to work, and he wanted to stay in this job instead of going to college. That's a real issue many parents face when their kids are older, and it was handled very well, IMO. I also loved the Christmas episode where the importance of sharing family time together at church was stressed.
Right now, I don't watch a single sitcom. I have no stomach for them.
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
Just because a family on television is portrayed to be quirky and just a little scatterbrained does not make them inaccurate portraits of the American family. Malcolm in the Middle has two parents who work relatively mediocre jobs to provide for their children, who range from brilliant - to 2 troubled youths. The youngest is just kinda there. The kids fear the discipline of Mom, and mom and dad both just want to make their family situation work while all the while paying the bills. While some may argue that this show is about a dysfuntional family (which it may very well be), it's not that inaccurate a portrayal of several suburban families.
Family Matters, as lame as a show that it was, also portrayed an ideal family image. Well meaning street smart father, heavy handed mother, also bickering but loving kids.
Boy Meets World also protrays hardworking parents, and healthy relationships between siblings, offspring, and parents.
the list goes on. But then it could be argued that people watch sitcoms to escape reality. Who wants to watch a show about themselves when they can watch the misadventures of a fictitious family, where there are no consequences for their actions or inactions and no harm is done.
that is all...
[ January 10, 2005, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: Ben ]
Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
"While some may argue that this show is about a dysfuntional family (which it may very well be), it's not that inaccurate a portrayal of several suburban families."
I have some experience with suburban families. And Malcolm in the Middle is, indeed, a very inaccurate portrayal of suburban families. It's no more realistic than The Simpsons -- and as the latter is a cartoon that has, for example, sent its main character on a moon mission, I'm not sure this is a point in its favor, realism-wise.
[ January 10, 2005, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
One of the things that always bugged me about The Cosby Show is that they have no domestic help. The mother is a partner in a Manhattan law firm, the father has a successful Ob/Gyn practice, they have 5 children and no maid or nanny? And they're the ones who fix supper every night? Completely unrealistic.
Of course, it's still the greatest sitcom of all time and always makes me laugh.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
Not sure what it means, but Roseanne is probably the closest show to our home life, at least in attitude.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
"It's okay if our dramatic heroes are slightly superhuman, but our comedic protagonists have to be at least mildly worse-off than we are -- or than we perceive ourselves -- in order for us to find them funny. I don't know why."
I (partially) disagree. I think we find sitcoms funny because we recognize a bit of ourselves in the characters. It is how "Seinfeld" became so popular. ("Oh my Gosh, I've done that/said that!")
However, as you say, it is OK to recognize ourselves in the characters as long as we can feel like we are better off then they are.
Posted by vwiggin (Member # 926) on :
Roseanne is probably my favorite family sitcom of all time. I just found out that Joss Whedon wrote quite a few episodes for that show. Is there no end to that man's genius?
I also just figured out that Glenn Quinn, who plays Mark on Roseanne, is Doyle in Angel.
Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
Duh, Roseanne. Totally forgot about that one. I think it's the most realistic portrayal of a typical American family. At least the ones that I know.
Posted by Ryuko (Member # 5125) on :
I still want to be Claire Huxtable when I grow up. She's so pretty and smart and calm... (sigh)
That said, I don't watch much comedy TV anymore.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Malcolm in the Middle drives me nuts. Malcolm is constantly whining, his mother yells and screams all the time. The father is dopily co-dependent and the kids are always beating the crap out of each other every second. Plus, they have no money and a half a ton of kids! That always drives me insane instead of amusing me. Roseanne, I liked when I was younger, but I started watching the reruns of it and got a bit annoyed at how controlling she was. All the time she had to be in everyone's business, telling everyone what to do, but I'd take her over the mother in Malcolm. But, her voice is just a bit grating sometimes. And, it depressed me that Darlene ended up living with her parents instead of pursuing art. Probably because the thought of having to live with relatives again makes me want to scream. Tim's immaturity with his wife's sensibility drove me up a tree...
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
D.J.: I just had some questions about God and stuff. Roseanne: Well why didn't you come to us if you had questions? There are no two better people to answer your questions than me and your dad. D.J.: Okay. what religion are we? Roseanne: I have no idea. Dan? Dan: Well, my mom's mom was Pentacostal and Baptist on the side of my dad. Your mom's mom was Lutheran and her dad was Jewish. D.J.: So what do we believe? Roseanne: Well... we believe in... being good. So basically, we're good people. Dan: Yeah, but we're not practicing.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
quote:I also just figured out that Glenn Quinn, who plays Mark on Roseanne, is Doyle in Angel.
Hey! You're right!
*astonished
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
No way.
*Checks IMDB*
Wow! I had no idea.
Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
He looked familiar in that "gee, something smells like Cheetos" kind of way, but you're pretty sure nobody is eating Cheetos at a Mediterranean restaurant. Still, your nose is twitching, y'know?
Posted by Dagonee (Member # 5818) on :
He had bad hair in both shows, but it was very different bad hair.
Posted by Storm Saxon (Member # 3101) on :
quote: He looked familiar in that "gee, something smells like Cheetos" kind of way, but you're pretty sure nobody is eating Cheetos at a Mediterranean restaurant. Still, your nose is twitching, y'know?
Clever. Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i wish to clarify that i never said Malcolm in The Middle epitomizes Suburban America, but rather it is an accurate portrayel of MANY (not all, or the majority even) families.
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
Dang. That gives me so much hope for the state of the family.
Posted by Daring Rooster (Member # 7252) on :
It wouldn't be a funny show in our culture if someone wasn't an idiot...
I guess that's part of why I don't watch a lot of TV.
Someone mentioned the Cosby show earlier - I think a lot of sitcoms in the 80's had similar parental types - Silver Spoons, Different Strokes, etc.
Posted by Chris Bridges (Member # 1138) on :
This is why I prefer to model my married life after The Addams Family. Intelligent, loving parents. Well-educated kids. Strong family togetherness. And a husband and wife who truly supported each other with terrifying enthusiasm and who clearly loved each other, often inappropriately.
Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
If people think that TV is somehow biased against men, they are seeing what they want to see,
How many good mothers and wives do you see on TV?
In fact, in most of these sitcoms the wives and mother's are just supporting characters. We don't really know that much about them, it's the man who is the star of the show and the women are only half characters at best.
Posted by Scott R (Member # 567) on :
quote:Plus, they have no money and a half a ton of kids! That always drives me insane instead of amusing me.
They have 4 kids. That's not half a ton, really-- I'd be suprised if they even rate a quarter ton altogether. That Dewey's pretty scrawny.
Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
Those four imaginary children are well fed, well clothed, well educated, and well loved, like many real life families I know with four children and not a ton of money.
[ January 11, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
Posted by Synesthesia (Member # 4774) on :
But they treat them horribly a lot of the time...
Posted by Ben (Member # 6117) on :
i don't see them as being treated horribly. i see the kids as pushing their limits and getting into mischief which tries the parents patience and often frustrates the parents. i don't think the kids are horribly mistreated except at the hands of their fellow siblings...
Posted by Icarus (Member # 3162) on :
quote:This is why I prefer to model my married life after The Addams Family. Intelligent, loving parents. Well-educated kids. Strong family togetherness. And a husband and wife who truly supported each other with terrifying enthusiasm and who clearly loved each other, often inappropriately.
Awesome post! Posted by Yozhik (Member # 89) on :
quote:Those four imaginary children are...well clothed
Didn't Dewey have a speech that went something like "I am the fourth person to wear this underwear!"
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