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Should you stay at a church if their stated doctrine is no longer what you believe? Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member? Or is it only important for the leaders and church officers to adhere strictly to the doctrine, allowing a little more liberty in the beliefs of the congregation?

Yet, does that mean if you ever feel called by God to assume a leadership role in that church, you would then have to turn it down because you can't agree with the doctrine?

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My church has doctrines that I struggle to accept. I suppose the headship of the husband could be one. I mean, can't we go by ACT scores?

Is this doctrinal problem anti-biblical in your view? If so, you should leave the church. If it is biblical (0r in my case, canonical) I would consider it my opportunity to make room for it in my heart.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
Belle, this is a complex question.

If it's over doctrinal issues, I'd only feel right about leaving if I'd gone to the pastor and discussed it with him first. But truthfully, my criteria for a church isn't based in doctrine. It's based in leadership. Is the leadership genuinely humble before God and congregation? Is the purpose of their leadership to spread the love of Christ to any and all, in accordance with Scripture? If so, I could probably go to that church.

But I can't decide just for myself. My husband is less picky than I am and says he could go to any church and be happy as long as it was biblically based. But it's very important to me that my son like church, so I'd want one with a good youth ministry. If my son suddenly hated church, I'd probably start church shopping if I thought it would do any good.

Your situation doesn't sound like much fun. Changing leadership is bound to shake things up. I'm sorry to hear you're struggling with it.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 

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But truthfully, my criteria for a church isn't based in doctrine. It's based in leadership. Is the leadership genuinely humble before God and congregation? Is the purpose of their leadership to spread the love of Christ to any and all, in accordance with Scripture?

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I wouldn't consider attitude outside of the scope of doctrine, jen. It's pretty heavily stressed all the way through the New Testament. However, I think the New Testament also makes the point that the spirit of the law cannot stand without the letter of the law. I believe in both.

Reminds me of an urban legend about some people who felt that the true test of spirituality would be to sin (in particular, adultery) without having lust in their hearts.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Hmm, I'm a veteran of changing churches because my parents decided to leave their current church. All of the churches listed below were in the same geographic area. None of the departures were because we moved or anything. They are still in the same house that they were in there. I don't know how much the sequence below relates to my current stance on my parents churches or not, but I definitely think that the fact that my parents can't find a church they like for any length of time causes me to lose faith somewhat in the entire system, even if yes everyone in the system is human.

Church #1 My parents had moved to the area fairly recently and went there 4-5 years. They were very involved in bible studies childrens programs etc. Dad's boss at the time was going there, boss was on the board of trustees. Dad knew his boss was basically a crook and was in the process of changing jobs himself as a result. Dad told off the church leadership for being so blind to trust a crook and we left. 15+ years later the boss was indited on a bunch of felonies. Dad was just outside the statute of limitations so they didn't go interviewing him. I was too little to really know much of what was going on, but I remember crying because it was change and my parents were upset.

Church #2. This was the church I remember for most of my childhood. We went there 8 years. Dad was on the elder board, they kicked out the pastor (who had moved in across the street from us and whose daughter was my best friend) Duplicity with some marital counseling sessions which is what brought it to a head. Basically he was telling both sides of the quarreling couple what they wanted to hear, not realizing it was exact opposite advice to each party. This caused a massive church split. A lot of those people ended up going to church #1 but not really the ones that had left #1 for #2.

A bunch of people from Church #1 had started going to Church #2 in the mean time. There was a series of interm pastors, several quite good, and then they finally (after like 3 years) found a new pastor. The new pastor, though everything else checked out initially, got into a brand of Covenant theology that many people (my parent more than most) didn't agree with. The others really didn't realize that it was a departure in doctrine (though not really outside the doctrinal statment) and ate it up. Dad quietly stepped down from the leadership because he didn't want to cause another church split and eventually they stopped going to that church, though they continued helping with the weeknight youth program for a while.

From a kids perspective this church was one of the few places where I actually had social status. It was partly because of my father but partly because of me, I was the one who knew the answers and in this group that was encouraged. I was very grieved over the departure of my friend and blamed myself even though in hindsight it had nothing to do with me.

Then we went to church #3.(6ish years) They never actually joined church #3 because the doctrinal statement wasn't quite tight enough. It was a community church with more acceptance of varying doctrinal stands (probably one of the reasons they accepted my parents) We lived to far away (40 minutes) for me to become truly active in the youth program. Also I wasn't part of the area sub-community and as a result the only friends my own age I had were some people previously from church #1. And they were too caught up in their own lives and it was junior high. I made friends among the senior citizens who loved me. My brothers were more accepted than I ever was. The pastor at that church that my parents liked, retired, and there were once again a couple of interm pastors that were good. I went to college during this time. While I was gone my parents faded out of #3 and started attending Church #4. I always made at least a few trips to Church #3 while I was home. My parents didn't mind.

Church #4 in some ways is a repeat of Church #2. Most of the people from churches #1 and #2 that were friends of my parents have ended up at church #4. I have connections with those people, but not as much with the people who actualy had deeper historical roots at Church #4. They went to #4 both because of mostly sound doctrine and because of the solid youth program for my brothers who also had friends there.

They'll probably stay with #4 until that pastor retires, then who knows...

AJ

[ January 10, 2005, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Corwin (Member # 5705) on :
 
Well, I'm not married nor in a relantionship at the moment, so take my advice as "theory" only.

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Now, I'm not naive, no church is perfect, because it's made of people and people aren't perfect. I'm not looking for someplace that will be everything I want it to be. But we've been talking about what would constitute a good enough reason to leave. By we I mean my husband and I.

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If I understand this right, you have found a reason, and he hasn't. What does he think of your reason? Is it possible that it is only a temporary thing? I'm glad you're both giving it more thought instead of rushing into the decission.

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Should a church member be under the obligation to stay and work things out no matter what?

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Is that family member being selfish by insisting everybody else change churches? Can family members go to different churches?

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What would be the opposite?! If you believe your current church is not suitable for you - is not "the true church" - would it be better to go on as a part of what you think is a lie?! And I don't think that all the members of a family must go to the same church. And yes, it's selfish, and no different than insisting that all "remain" at the same church! Not being in a church doesn't mean you have no respect for it or for the people who think it suitable for them. It's a personal problem, that's all.

My ex-girlfriend is an Orthodox Christian, and I'm an agnostic atheist - or something. Before we were together we got to talk about God, church and things like this and she's not very comfortable with this kind of discussions, so naturally I tried to avoid them while we were together. Our break-up had nothing to do with this. How long have you been married? I'm asking this because I don't think the options are either go to the same church or break up the marriage. The moments you have shared this far surely count more than the religion each of you chooses to follow, don't they? Then again, being a non-believer I don't know exactly how important religion is in someone's life/relationships.

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Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member?

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I'm not looking for anyone here to tell me what to do

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Nobody will or CAN tell you what to do. You're a big girl, we know you'll figure it out!
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Note, the only churches my parents were 'members' of were #1 and #2.

I think everything else since they are in the 'regular attender' category. They've gotten pretty badly burned by "membership" though I don't think it is as big of a deal as it used to be. My understanding is that they split their tithe between private missions contributions and whatever church they were attending at the moment. If they were in transition over a church then the missionaries would get extra or they'd do specific donations to other causes.

AJ
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, I must confess that part of the struggle here is my personal feelings.

I feel like I've been rejected by the leadership of this church more than once when I tried to serve. Over a period of five years I've tried very hard to get involved in some specific ministry opportunities and been rebuffed. Many times the excuse was that they just didn't think the timing was right, but twice they've allowed someone else to do the exact same things I was proposing. Which, if they didn't feel I was right for the project, that would be fine, but no one has ever said that to me. They've simply passed over me, ignored me, and given the responsibilities to someone else.

Other times I've expressed interest in something (like helping start up a drama team with the youth, and I'd even written a couple of plays and given them to the leadership) and been rejected - or ignored. Then, the church leadership allowed some people to get together and form a drama team without ever opening it up to let others interested, like me, get involved. That one particularly hurt, because three of the people who formed the drama team had spoken with me personally about how they wanted to do it "in the future" and I shared with them my visions and ideas and gave them plays that I'd written. But they didn't invite me to take part. They didn't invite anyone to take part, actually, and I know I wasn't the only person who felt a little left out. Including a young woman who is presently a theater major in college, and wanted to do this very badly, she too felt very hurt and rejected.

Now, that's a personal issue. It's between me and other people, not between me and God. But, I feel like I've done my best to get involved in many different things (I also wanted to re-do our church library, and was told to go ahead by our church leadership, yet when the time came to submit my plans for 2005, I turned them in only to have the acting pastor come and tell me that a library was just not something the church really needed after all.) In everything I've been rejected, and I've gotten to the point that I DO take it personally, it hurts. I've spent more than my share of nights crying myself to sleep over it lately. I'm really getting a bit tired of it actually, and as you can imagine it's very hard to get myself out of bed on Sunday mornings, when I have so many feelings of rejection and hurt associated with this church.

I feel like the leadership has some reason they don't want me involved in anything, and yet I feel that God does want me to branch out and be more involved in directly ministering to others, but my church isn't giving me the chance to do that.

If you're wondering if I've ever turned down anything they DID ask me to do, the answer is no. I've done things that I didn't feel called to do, things I didn't even enjoy, simply because I wanted to serve, and I know that sometimes God wants us to stretch outside our comfort zone.

But I do feel strongly that when a person has certain spiritual gifts, and God-given talents and abilities, that God intends those gifts and abilities to be used in serving Him. I don't feel like the church is giving me the opportunity to do so many of the things I feel led toward. I don't know if that means I should just find somewhere else, that God is leaning on me to take my gifts to another place he has planned for me to use them.

On the flip side - my husband is plugged into this church, he is heavily involved in foreign missions, and my children love it.

So what to do? I feel like if I pressure my husband to leave, I'm being selfish. But my husband says he's tired of seeing me come home from church and cry.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Well hierarchically, couldn't your husband act as your advocate and discuss the issues with the leadership? How you wish to help but feel like there is no place for you? It seems like he would be the proper intermediate rather than you going directly.

AJ
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Well, it seems to be a puzzle at this point in time, Belle, because your church itself looks like it is undecided about what it believes (you said your church leadership is divided itself over what the doctrinal statement says) and they don't currently have a strong head pastor to decide it one way or the other (since they are searching for a new pastor).

I would say wait it out and see which side of the fence everything falls when it all settles, then decide if you still feel you can serve in that setting with whoever the new pastor is.

In our sermon yesterday, we were beginning an in-depth study of the book of Romans, and the pastor mentioned that basically any question you have about your life can be answered through the book of Romans. Now, he didn't mean directly or specifically (like you can't go to Romans to ask "should I take that job in New Jersey"), but he was saying if we use the principles taught in Romans as our filter for making our decisions -- or read and study it when questions come to our lives, it will help guide us in making those decisions based on God's principles.

I think what you are doing right now is right, and that you may just need to be patient to see what happens making any decisions. Sometimes these things take time. Remember in I Corinthians 7, the church at Corinth was in an upheaval because of the societal environment, and the soon-coming persecution of the Christian church in that area, and that is why Paul at that time basically told them to hold fast and be content where they were, instead of wondering about greener grass. (totally my interpretation, so don't look for that as a quote there).

Farmgirl

edit: Belle - I wrote this before getting a chance to read your last post -- because I got interrupted while writing it. So it is only in response to your first post.

[ January 10, 2005, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Farmgirl ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
AJ,you're so wise.

Actually, he wants to do that, and I've been hesitant. Mainly because I've felt that it was unfair to put my husband on the spot.

I did go myself, directly to the acting pastor and talk about some of this, and was told that my problem was that I wasn't involved enough in Bible studies. The reason I'm not is a function of time, it's impossible to attend a weekly scheduled Bible study when my husband works a shift - there will be nights I just cannot go. Plus, there is the issue of me soon going back to school (this conversation took place before I started the semester).

Yet, because he laid it out as a requirement, I did join a Bible study group and yet nothing has changed. The change of heart about the library and the drama team incident both happened after I joined a regular study.

So I think it was an excuse. There is something else that I can't figure out, and no one appears to want to be forthcoming about. And, at this point, I'm starting to think it's just that they've made a decision based on something that I'm not worthy to serve in some way. That hurts - because I don't know what I've done wrong, and I don't know how to fix it.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 

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Basically he was telling both sides of the quarreling couple what they wanted to hear, not realizing it was exact opposite advice to each party.

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Belle, why don't you use your talents in volunteer capacities outside the church? If people didn't find a way to like the callings they got rather than insist on the callings they want, our church couldn't exist. Anway, our leadership is always advising us to offer service outside the scope of "church service".

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Trisha, that is excellent advice that I've tried very hard to follow. I posted a thread a while back about how I was thinking about offering some of my writings and plays online for other churches to use, free of charge.

That's a very reasonable way to look at it, but unfortunately I'm an unreasonable human being sometimes, whose emotions really affect how she looks at things.

I don't know if I can do that, and compeltely lay aside the feelings of hurt and rejection. I've tried, I really have.

I've also spent a not-inconsiderable period of time discussing this with my therapist, who is a Christian counselor associated with a church -based counselling service. She is advising me to pray that my husband may come to support me in my feelings, and that we can be united in looking for a new church.

I have a hard time though, feeling like I'm the "bad guy" and forcing my kids (my oldest daughter especially is plugged into this chuch and very happy there) and my husband to give up something they love.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Belle if he wants to do it, I think you should let him. If you were pressuring him into it, it would be a different matter. But if their truly is an *spiritual issue* that they aren't addressing with you, directly, (and yeah it sounds like it is) then they are failing in their spiritual leadership to you. Your husband as the direct spiritual leader, not to mention loving you the most, is the one who needs to address it.

I hate to say it but I'm betting you offended somone elses wife(s) without knowing it and she/they are indirectly influencing against you. Probably not even in a mean or petty way, but subconsciously without meaning to.

The only other thing I could think of is that it has something to do with your mental health issues. Dispite confidentiality agreements things can sometimes leak through "christian" organizations faster than the secular variety.(And perhaps they are being brought up as maybe you have enough on your plate with your kids and you aren't strong enough for a more difficult burden.) That would be the worst case scenario. It also could be that you aren't actually *safe* even though you *should* be in confiding your struggles in the church community. And if you are more open about your struggles than other people it is actually once again subconsiously held against you. It is stupid. Spiritual perfectionists should realize that they aren't perfect either, but that's life and we are all human.

Misjudging someone's spirituality in a church setting is extremely easy to do. If you show particular strengths or weaknesses you can be easily misjudged as more or less than you really are. I had it bite me in the butt on the strengths side, because how many bible verses you know or how well you can debate theology says nothing about a person's internal spiritual state.

Reason why I left church #5 that I attended in college: I realized that I was a hypocrite because I wasn't in any way the person the church people thought I was, though I didn't set out to mislead anyone.

[ January 10, 2005, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Trisha the pastor was doing both individual and joint counseling with the couple. The one on one with each person was where the conflicting statments arose. They even taped him as I recall (and he knew the sessions were being taped) saying one thing to the wife, and then saying the opposite to the husband. It was like he was incapable of holding a single stance on the issue because he was empathizing so deeply with either party he'd agree with them. (In years of hindsight my father came to this conclusion rather than that the pastor was a pathological liar) This was only one of many instances where he'd say exactly what the person he was talking to, wanted to hear, even if he'd said the opposite to someone else shortly before.

I understand seeing both sides of an issue and try to see things from both points of view myself. However, the point is to work on the common ground at the center, not agree with the parts that are in diametric opposition.

AJ
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
OK, AJ now you have me crying (and I know you didn't mean to!) Because I'm so afraid that this is true:

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The only other thing I could think of is that it has something to do with your mental health issues. (And perhaps they are being brought up as maybe you have enough on your plate with your kids and you aren't strong enough for a more difficult burden.) That would be the worst case scenario. It also could be that you aren't actually *safe* even though you *should* be in confiding your struggles in the church community. And if you are more open about your struggles than other people it is actually once again subconsiously held against you.

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See, I AM open about the struggles I had with ADD and depression, and I am that way precisely because I think too many women, especially Christian women, don't seek help. I think we sometimes do people a disservice in the church - we sometimes lead women to believe that if they're struggling with home and work and children and their own feelings they "just aren't faithful enough"

One of the areas I feel strongly drawn toward is ministering to women, mothers in particular, that feel overwhelmed and need help.

And yet, I think the church has judged that because I have been one of those women in the past, I'm not reliable enough or strong enough to do that.

So who can minister to these women, if we don't want someone who has been on that road and faced her own struggles to do it? In our church, the answer is: We just don't minister to them at all.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
*hugs* I'm sorry Belle. I was analyzing dispassionately and wasn't thinking about how you'd feel about it. I do feel "removed" from the conservative Christian community, and maybe I'm more critical as a result.

But, I think the mental health issues *are* a systemic problem inside a large segment of the conservative Christian community. (Though California conservative Christian churches like #3 were a bit more touchy feely and ok with counselling etc.) You, however, aren't in a state that has as much of a culture of openness about mental health issues to begin with.

*sigh* In a way I'm dealing with this with my own mother at the moment. I need to write it out and post it here or on my LJ. Even in CA, my mother *wasn't* raised there, and it sounds like she's in severe depression and I can't think of a way to convince her to get help, because she's not *supposed* to have problems because she's supposed to trust in God to make it better. And I've become the focus of her misery because I'm in "rebellion". While I appreciate the fact that she loves and cares about me and disagrees with my life choices, I don't think the rational nor correct spiritual response is to weep every day for the past two years. Even King David didn't cry that long and his sons were dead.

*hugs*

AJ
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
You can minister to them in an unofficial capacity, providing succor and support. I think that is an admirable pursuit, but unfortunately one that can't really come from "on high" in the church leadership. Certainly it is all through the scriptures, but the nature of a church is often to train the young and provide validation for male participation in society.

Again, I think the key is to get involved in community ADD or Depression support groups. There are two ways to serve- to be a disorder survivor among the Christians or be a Christian among the Disorder survivors. If people need to go outside church resources to get that help, that's okay.

My novel I wrote is a lot about the issues of mental health recovery and spirituality. There is one list that does the sunday school class rounds, and the church has made multiple official statements that these things have no place in our classes but Satan is hard to fight. It's a list of how to know you have the Spirit and the first one says "If you're not happy you don't have the spirit."
 

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Posted by Shigosei (Member # 3831) on :
 
Belle, I don't think you should minimize the problems you've been having with the church leadership as "a personal issue." It's also a spiritual issue, since it sounds like you feel you are being called to do these things. When your church hinders you in using your gifts to serve others, especially when they make excuses about it, that is a serious problem, not just a personality conflict. At least, that's my opinion.

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See, I AM open about the struggles I had with ADD and depression, and I am that way precisely because I think too many women, especially Christian women, don't seek help. I think we sometimes do people a disservice in the church - we sometimes lead women to believe that if they're struggling with home and work and children and their own feelings they "just aren't faithful enough"

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I have a hard time though, feeling like I'm the "bad guy" and forcing my kids (my oldest daughter especially is plugged into this chuch and very happy there) and my husband to give up something they love.

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So who can minister to these women, if we don't want someone who has been on that road and faced her own struggles to do it? In our church, the answer is: We just don't minister to them at all.

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Does it make a difference that this is a church being discussed, and not a club of some other sort? If so, what?

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Tom, that's why I asked about whether she feels covenanted toward this congregation. It sounds like the attachments of other family members and the nature of the "club" being one that all the family wants to attend together is pretty important.

If the family all understands why, I think a solution where different folks to to different churches could possibly work. As long as the feelings are open enough for Belle to go back for special events.

Is church more like a club or is it an extension of family? This has a lot to do with Belle's original question.

[ January 10, 2005, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Spiritual lines of authority Tom, separating the Good that is God from the morass that humanity can sometimes make of God's institutions."

Then it seems to me, if this is the case, that Belle's husband -- whom she accepts as her spiritual authority -- should be praying for direction on this issue. If her church is a godly one, won't God make that clear?
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Notice that was my first suggestion, Tom, I didn't really specifically include praying cause it was kind of implicit but yes.

However if the causes are *human* and have everything to do with human frailty rather than the faith in God, there is a problem, that the "spiritual" way won't help. Possibly because the people that have the problem aren't willing to humble themselves and honestly consider what God may be saying about their preconcieved notions.*

AJ
*Note: This is theoretical. I personally haven't witnessed any major conflict where the humans in question have been able to get out of the way of themselves and actually resolve issues and come to unity. See the litany of churches changed above.

[ January 10, 2005, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
I concur with BannaOJ that there is not enough understanding about emotional and mental issues, and that that ignorance can be destructive.

For the current issue, though, I can't support the idea of changing churches because of not serving in the opportunities you'd like, not when the rest of your family is happy there. We have the same issue in our own. Church offices may or may not fulfill all current needs to serve, and it isn't the responsibility of a church to make sure that everyone's current needs to serve are being met. For a number of reasons, not everyone can serve in the way they would like. We don't choose how we are needed.

Since you asked, I would say that disagreeing with the core doctrines or else knowledge of corruption is a reason to leave a church, but that's about the end of the list.

[ January 10, 2005, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
The husband being the head doesn't mean he should or wants to make decisions alone. Just as the analogy goes that is originally in the NT (IIRC) that the husband heads the wife just as Christ heads the church. Christ doesn't want the church to obey him just because he said so, or even out of love for him. That which follows the head has its free will but the head strives to bring it into alignment with "right". That's why Christianity is so inefficient.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I wish I had something helpful to say, Belle. I'm really feeling for you...I know that this sort of stuff can strike right at the heart. My best friend is a bit disenchanted with our church for reasons similar to what you've shared. I love her so it hurts me that she's hurting over feeling left out and rejected.

I'd give you a big huge hug if I could.

(And AJ, you're super. I've loved your posts on this thread.)
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
However in Belle's place her husband is willing to be her advocate. If anything it sounds to me he has been refraining out of deference to her. I think definitely that should be the first step. Hopefully if it is the mental health issues they will address them with him honestly. If he gets blown off too, then it really becomes obvious...

AJ
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
"Since you asked, I would say that disagreeing with the core doctrines or else knowledge of corruption is a reason to leave a church, but that's about the end of the list."

Which is why I asked if there were a difference between a church and a club.

Because I wouldn't choose to belong to a club that clearly disrespected me and undervalued my time and contributions.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
I wouldn't, either. I think it's different - clubs we pick and participate in for ourselves, on a casual and interest basis. Churches are about something higher.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Another note: It is interesting to me, that it often *is* the people with mental health issues (and I'm using that as a broadly generic term) that are the ones that end up doing some of the most valuable ministering to others, both secularly and religiously. However, ministering to sick people who don't think they are sick, (even if it might be abundantly clear to someone who has the insight of having been there) is generally fruitless. Jesus himself said he didn't come for the righteous but the sinners.

AJ
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
Tom, a preschool sunday school teacher is nearly *always* undervalued on a human scale. Hence the hope for spiritual reward.

AJ
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 

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Because I wouldn't choose to belong to a club that clearly disrespected me and undervalued my time and contributions.

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I was always under the impression that they did it because they considered that kind of charity to be visible evidence of their own faith.

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That's not fair, Tom.

I teach Hebrew School and I do get paid, but I certainly don't do it for the (very little) money or to make a show of my faith and/or charity. I do it because I think it's vital for the next generation of Jewish children to know Hebrew. My spiritual reward is knowing that I am helping to sustain my religion.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
What Mrs. M said too.

AJ
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Most of the Sunday School teachers I know do it because they think it’s important.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
I actually thought about going back and editing in exactly that motivation, but figured that someone would have posted it by the time I finished.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
(didn't mean to derail thread)

AJ
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I like teaching preschoolers at church. I frequently sub in the 2 year old's class.

I do it because it needs doing. That's how I got into children's ministry. They needed someone and I wasn't doing anything...was looking for someplace to fit in to in my new church in Denver, and they clearly needed a preschool mid-week service assistant. It was often a scary experience, but I learned to love it. There's nothing in the world better than having a child trust and love you. I don't always go with the best attitude, but I always *leave* with a better one. Service blesses just by itself.

But it's clear in scripture that there are rewards in heaven for faithful service. That's not why I do it -- as I said, it blesses just by itself -- but in a small way, that promise of reward makes death a little smaller, not so scary.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
I think the issues about opportunities to serve in the church need to be set aside until the doctrinal matter is settled. (For belle, not that the thread "shouldn't" continue to explore this area.)

On the subject of serving, I like to recall the scripture about "If he have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto Me."

[ January 10, 2005, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
 

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Posted by Paul Goldner (Member # 1910) on :
 
I know I'm jumping in late, but I'd like to input my own responses to Belle's initial questions.

"Should a church member be under the obligation to stay and work things out no matter what?"

No. Some problems with a congregation, spiritual leader, or doctrine, are too significant to overlook. In a temple a rabbi holds a fairly significant role, especially in a reform temple. If my rabbi did not value my membership in the congregation, and visibly demonstrated that, I would attempt to find a place where the leader welcomed me, and allowed me to participate fully in the temple and its works. Of course, judaism is a lot more "works" oriented then most sects of christianity, so not being able to participate in the works of a temple might be more significant then for a church. Doctrinally, if you believe the church is wrong on significant issues, then I would say you should most definetely leave. Significant issues, I would assert, are issues of salvation, the nature and role of god in life, and similar issues. In terms of congregation, if a person believes that he can only be in touch with god through loud, emotional, prayer, and belongs to a congregation that practices silent, solitary, prayer, the person does not belong in that congregation.

"What if one family member wants to leave but no one else does?"

I think this can be brutal. It depends on many issues. I live in massachusetts, where the primary church is the catholic church, and most people who were born here grew up catholics. There are also, especially recently because of teh scandal with the catholic church, a lot of lapsed catholics who are looking for new homes. I was raised, until my mother converted, in both judaism, and generic protestantism, so I have some personal experience.

I think every effort should be made to find a congregation the family is comfortable with, because religion, especially for you, Belle, more then many others, is a vital part of family life. However, its not always the case that family members can belong to the same congregation. The girl I took to my high school prom was raised catholic, by a catholic mother. But her father was methodist, and only attended mass for special events, such as her confirmation. The family was strong, despite this parental split. But, I think you, Belle, would feel this a devastating blow to your family. For that reason, I think you and your husband need to find a place, whether its this church or a new one, where you both belong.

" Is that family member being selfish by insisting everybody else change churches?"

Not necessarily. If you can meet your religious needs only a new church, and your husband could meet them either in your current or new church, then by all means find a new church. This, of course, depends upon seperating wants and needs. Do you NEED to be involved in the activities you can't be right now, or is it a want?

"Can family members go to different churches? I believe the answer to that is no"

As I said, the answer is yes, but for you likely no.

"Should you stay at a church if their stated doctrine is no longer what you believe?"

Depends on the doctrine. If the doctrine is that gay marriage is evil in the eyes of god, and you disagree, there's no reason to leave the church, unless you happen to be a gay person who wants to get married. This, obviously, is not the case in your situation. On the other hand, if doctrine is that god works through men, and you don't believe that, and thus believe the church should function differently then it does, this is an irreconcilable difference, in my opinion.

" Must you agree with all of the doctrinal statement to remain a member? Or is it only important for the leaders and church officers to adhere strictly to the doctrine, allowing a little more liberty in the beliefs of the congregation?"

I think you need to agree with the most important aspects of the doctrinal statements. The congregation usually should have a little more liberty of belief, then the leadership.

"Yet, does that mean if you ever feel called by God to assume a leadership role in that church, you would then have to turn it down because you can't agree with the doctrine?"

This, to me, is probably an irreconcileable differnce. Let me take this out a bit...

Lets assume I hear god call me to the cloth. Yet, I belong to a church that I am disqualified from being a clergy member, for some reason. God, obviously, has told me to BE a clergy member. But I can't within context of my church's doctrine. Either I need to work to change that doctrine, or find a church that will let me answer god's call.

I hope this helps in some way. I know I'm not a religious person, but that doesn't mean I don't have real answers to these questions.
 

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Posted by DocCoyote (Member # 5612) on :
 
Y'all have said some amazing things on this thread, and I don't think I can address even a bit of what's already been discussed.

The one point I wanted to make was how critically important it is for you to be able to derive spiritual satisfaction from your church. If you do not, it is time to look elsewhere. Church has to be a safe and loving place for you.

One of the biggest issues about the child molestation cases in the Catholic church (I know I shouldn't have brought it up, but it's really germaine) is how people in a position of trust (the priests) betrayed that trust. Your church needs to be a place where you feel you can trust the hierarchy. I guess I equate spiritual satisfaction with trust.

I know I'm not stating this with anything like the clarity the others (AJ, you're awesome)have shown. I hope it's another somewhat valuable point of view for you.

Lisa
 

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Posted by Sara Sasse (Member # 6804) on :
 
Belle, how would you counsel a woman who came to you with this problem?
 

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Posted by Lupus (Member # 6516) on :
 
This is a tough situation, and was a decision that I had to make in high school

The pastor at my church left, and was replaced with an interim minister. At the time I was becoming very disillusioned with the church due to some things that had happened under the previous pastor. Unfortunately, the things that had happed were caused by some of the Elders that would be choosing the new pastor. As the search went on, I decided that I needed a split from the church. The rest of my family, while not happy with the situation, felt that it was best to stick around at least until the pastor was found.

I just felt that that church was not the right place for me, and was unlikely to become the right place for me even if they did find a new minister. This was a tough decision for multiple reasons. First of all, leaving your family’s church is a tough thing to do. Secondly, because I was leaving the church that I was born into. There were also many people who I cared about that I would be leaving behind. Regardless, I felt that it was the right decision (and the best decision for my relationship with God). I found a new church, where I stayed for a year. While I was happy there, the rest of my family did not feel that it was right for them. After about a year, the rest of my family decided to move to a new church and a new denomination (Methodist). After attending their church, I decided that I felt comfortable there, and so even though I was happy with my current church I would move to the church of my family so that we could once again be together. It was a tough call, but in the end I decided that a family should worship together if at all possible.

I no longer live in the same city as my parents, so I have found a church in my current location (Methodist as well) but I still go to my family church when I am visiting my parents.

I don't know if this helps you at all, but at least it shows that it is a tough decision that requires a lot of prayer and thought but it is a decision that a lot of people have had to make. I think that if you feel that you don't belong in a church, you should leave regardless of your family. When you find a new church, you should encourage your family to try it out to see if they feel that it fits them better as well. I do think it is good for a family to attend the same church, but sometimes that is simply not possible. You should not remain at a church where you don't feel at home. I feel that remaining at a church where you feel uncomfortable can be detrimental to your relationship with God. Church should be a place where you can feel comfortable worshiping God. If that is not the case, then perhaps God wants you to be somewhere else.

While I did not end up staying at the church that I went to after leaving my original church, I still think that it was the right decision to make. Even though I only spent a year there, I still believe that the year I was there strengthened my relationship with God.

[ January 10, 2005, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Lupus ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Sara, I would counsel her in many ways like the fantastic jatraqueros already have. Continue to pray and seek guidance, look for ways to minister in the way she feels led outside the church if the church won't let her, and try to be patient and see if the doctrinal issues are resolved and a new pastor is brought in that might be more open to explore the areas of ministry she feels drawn to.

However, I would also understand how hard it is to do, because emotions are not something you can just lay aside.

My husband has asked me (again) if I would let him call the assistant pastor and discuss some of the specific issues I've had trouble with. I told him that if he thought it would do some good, I have no objection.

In the meantime, he asked me to write down the reasons I feel like I should leave, and then write down the reasons I want to or feel like I should stay. He said that's for him, so he (my husband) can understand my feelings, and also for my benefit as it might help me sort things out.

So that's what I'm going to do.

I appreciate everybody, because most of this is emotional, not rational. It helps to see you guys offering rational solutions, and it really helps to hear from those of you who can offer some sympathy and understanding for the sheer burden of pain and rejection that I'm dealing with. When you're hurting, it can be hard to be rational, and that's one of my major struggles with making the decision.

When I finish writing everything out, I may post it or I'll email it to anyone that would be willing to read it and offer feedback.
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
Doc raises an excellent point. Spiritual needs are the foremost thing you go to church for. If there are social and intellectual needs that are also met, great but that is not the main reason you are there. It can be hard. My shoe shopping needs are not being met in my marriage, but I stay because of my emotional needs.
 

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Posted by amira tharani (Member # 182) on :
 
Belle, I can't offer any advice beyond what others have already said, but I am curious about what the alternatives would be for you. Would it be that there is another church of basically the same denomination near enough that you can get to it, or would you have to go further afield whether geographically or spiritually?
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
If you leave, does that make them right? Reminds me of when Kat tried to persuade me not to leave Hatrack.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
amira, there are others nearby, this is the Bible belt it's hard to turn a corner without tripping over a church. Granted, most of them are southern Baptist, which has a doctrine I don't completely subscribe to, but there are options.

There is one that is just as close as this one geographically that has a doctrine that completely lines up with ours...but has very few children and not much of a children's ministry. So we might have to go a little further afield geographically.
 

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Posted by gingerjam (Member # 7113) on :
 
I think the most important thing is that you are being spiritually uplifted, nurtured and feel guided by the Divine, in whatever church or religious community you belong to, otherwise it is hindering your family and therefore future generations, and hindering you soul...and it's your soul that matters because that's all you've got in the next stage of existence.

and if the doctrine of a particular church does not sit right with you, go back to the words of Christ and take it from there, anything else is human interpretation.

I'm a Baha'i, so i can't quote Bible verses, but this quote is a reminder for me at least that the most powerful things is to maintain your direct link with God, and always go back to the Words that were Spoken.

"...the healer of all thine ills is rememberance of Me, forget it not. Make My love thy treasure and cherish it even as thy very sight and life." Baha'u'llah
 

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Posted by The Rabbit (Member # 671) on :
 
When do you decide to leave a church? When you are confident that it is no longer where God wants you to be. Because, in the end belonging to the Church shouldn't be about whether or not you get along with the other members or like the pastor. It shouldn't be because you feel comfortable there are agree with everything that is said. Ultimately, belonging to a church is about the relationship between you and God. Maybe God wants you stay in your church because of what you have to contribute, or because of what you have to learn. Maybe he wants you to leave because he has more to offer you than you can get in the church you are attending and maybe there are reasons that I haven't thought of yet. But if you leave the church and God wanted you to stay or you stay when God wanted you to leave, then the whole point of attending church is lost. The most important point of attending any church is to worship God and if you are not following his will in attending how can you truly worship him?
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
So here's an update:

My husband spoke to the assistant pastor, who is our leader until we get hire a new pastor.

He basically told my husband that everything that I felt was a problem was my imagination, and gave out a ton of excuses. Most of them were pretty lame. Like, they didn't accept my offer of help to write a press release about the changing of our name (a big deal for a 125 year old church, and something the local newspaper had already said it would be interested in publishing an article about)because we hadn't changed the sign outside front yet. But, at the time, I was told they didn't need my help because someone else had already written it. To this date, no one has sent a press release at all and we changed the name months ago. *shrug*

My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed. So the sum result is my husband thinks it's all solved, and I should be glad everything is now cleared up, and I think the real problems still haven't been addressed, and probably won't be. So we still have a difference of opinion about whether or not we should be looking for a new congregation.
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
Belle, don't kill me, but I have an opinion (and you did ask).

I know that you like writing and books, and that you want to serve the Lord with the talents you have. That completely makes sense, and the incidents you have mentioned (press release, plays, library) fit in with what you said you wanted to do. However, your offers have been rebuffed, and that hurts. Perhaps part of that is that you feel that you could use your talents more than you are now, and that means looking for a new church.

I think church should not be a place for ambition or where you look for the place to use your talents. If you want to use those talents, it isn't your church's responsibility to provide you with a place to do it - what's important is serving where you are asked and where the Lord wants you to. You can use those talents in service of the Lord outside of the church your family attends.

[ January 12, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
At this point, though, I’m guessing it’s not even so much the not appreciating Belle’s talents as the lying (or at least sending seriously conflicting messages) about it that’s getting to her.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed.

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Belle, I didn't quite follow. Is this only what your mom thinks or do you think your husband has swept it under the rug, as well? I just caught up on this and read how he asked you to write everything down so he could understand your thoughts. I was going to post what a great guy he was, but then I read your last post.
 

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Posted by BannaOj (Member # 3206) on :
 
hmm, I don't know. Does your husband *really* not think the problem exists?

Did you write your list for him? I mean if there are as many little things as you say, surely he could see how they add up over time.

Now that he *has* talked to the assistant pastor, and the press release still hasn't been written, and the sign is up I assume. Why not write the press release, and submit it for approval and see what they do?

AJ
*grumble, stupid civil engineers like zgator beating me to my own thoughts*

[ January 12, 2005, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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I think church should not be a place for ambition or where you look for the place to use your talents.

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Maybe not ambition (and I don't think that describes Belle), but church is certainly a place to use your talents. I think the church does have some responsibility to helping its members develop and use their God given gifts. It's ministering to them by helping them minister to others.

AJ -
 

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Posted by Lady Jane (Member # 7249) on :
 
I see the people kind of as a bank - your talents at the disposal of church, but the church isn't required to use them. Like music - someone is musically talented but asked to teach Sunday School - that's fine. The musical person can find other ways to express themselves, but right now what's needed is a Sunday School teacher. Especially if there are several musical people in the congregation.

quote:

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I think the church does have some responsibility to helping its members develop and use their God given gifts.

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I think it's this statement that I disagree with. Church is there to bring us closer to Christ and to provide a warm place for spiritual growth, but things like developing individual talents are...bonuses if they happen at church, but ultimately up to the individual.

[ January 12, 2005, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
In a way, I kind of agree that God gives you your talents, and they should be available to the church, but one can't expect that they will be needed and used all the time. But considering that most of the things Belle listed were things that other people were allowed to do but not she, I think she has a right to be hurt. It isn't like they said, "We don't have a need for drama right now," but rather, "We don't want YOU to do our drama."
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Part of growing closer to Christ is growing in discipleship and service. In that sense it is part of the church's mission to help members discover, develop, and use, their particular gifts.

[ January 12, 2005, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: dkw ]
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
Maybe there is a reason your talents aren't being used. Maybe the Lord has another use for you or different lesson for you to learn. Maybe, instead of trying to help at church, you are there to learn patience and strengthen your faith in face of adversity, to learn to put the needs of your family/church ahead of your own needs. It could be that there is a reason you just don't know about yet.

Or I could be wrong.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
PSI and dkw posted while I was thinking and typing. You can just ignore me.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 

quote:

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I'm a Baha'i, so i can't quote Bible verses...

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quote:

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Remember LDS folks, this church doesn't run on the same sort of "callings" principle from the priesthood authority that yours does, generally the participation is more voluntary and most other churches are always shorthanded in some area.

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quote:

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It’s a “piling on” effect, one humiliation on top of another, until the sum result is I have to bolster myself, internally building up strength every time I cross the threshold. Instead of being a place where I can come to worship God and fellowship with other believers, it’s become a place that makes me feel like less of a person.

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quote:

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It bothers me when people go from church to church. I guess they have to do what works for them, but in that situation they are never going to be happy in one until they learn to be content in general.

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It bothers me too, which is why I've spent over five years trying to fit in here before getting to this point.

I don't know, I don't really think the realtionship between me and this church is salvageable. My husband though, says he thinks the talk with the assistant pastor was encouraging and thinks I should keep trying to make things work.

I'm so tired, though. I am having a hard time mustering up the willingness to stay with it.
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Oh Belle, that must be so difficult. Church should always be a haven.

I hope your husband reads that and understands. I'm sure it is hard for him to let go of the church if it is a community where he feels supported. But if you can help him see that it is such a different experience for you, then perhaps you can come to a concensus on this.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
Belle, have you considered showing Wes this thread? Maybe if he sees what people outside the situation have to say, it'll give him a new perspective.

I'm so sorry that you're going through this and I wish that there was something that I could do to help.
 

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Posted by Kayla (Member # 2403) on :
 
I'm sorry, why should church always be a haven?
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
Because we go to church for spiritual refreshment.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
I go to church to worship God.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 

quote:

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Correllary question: What do you say to someone in your church who verbalizes their disappointment in the church? I run into it all the time and always find myself tongue-tied. If it's just personality conflict, that's one thing, but when there's real disappointment and hurt, I never know what to say or do.

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Sometimes just listening can mean so much. Sometimes people just need to vent. But if they are saying something you feel you must openly disagree with, I think that can be done tactfully as well.
 

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Posted by beverly (Member # 6246) on :
 
Belle, it really does sound like something "fishy" is going on. I am sorry. I hope that your husband can come to understand your concerns better. I think it would be great if he read this thread.
 

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Posted by Alucard... (Member # 4924) on :
 
Not to sound too mysterious, but do you leave the Church or does Church leave you?

I was born and raised Catholic, and I go to mass occasionally, but not regularly. And there is no possible way I believe everything that the Catholic Church teaches, but I respect them for it. Then again, there is quite possibly no Church that I would believe everything that is taught as sacred or as doctrine.

I just hope you and your family could find solace in your Church.

To quote The Honda Motor Company:

Simplify.

(Life is complicated enough! )
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
Well, last night I went to church, and basically got mad and stomped out.

While eating supper (we have Weds. night dinner at the church) the asst. pastor came and asked my husband to stand up and tell everyone how positive this debate over the doctrine has been, because it's caused us to learn so much. I don't view this situation as positive in the least.

Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.

Now, let's keep in mind that Wes and I line up with the stated doctrine of the church, so the pastor is basically putting down the doctrine of the church he works for!

At any rate, it was upsetting and humiliating and it made me very angry, mainly because he wasn't even correct in the statements he made. You guys know me well enough to know that I won't back down from what I believe and I'm not afraid to be the only person in a room (or a forum) that believes something. I've had my beliefs ridiculed many times, here and elsewhere, and while it may upset me, (I won't lie,) it doesn't devastate me.

However, if you're going to make an example of me and put me up for public scorn for my beliefs, you'd better have your facts straight about what I believe. That wasn't the case last week - he said things that were not only common misconceptions that a seminary trained pastor should know better than to believe, but some things were just out and out wrong. And he did not give us a chance to correct the misconceptions, he told us that "You don't get the opportunity to rebut, maybe at another time I'll let you speak."

So, that was the "last straw" the one thing that made me really feel like I've had enough.

And he wanted my husband to tell everyone how much we appreciated him bringing it up, because it motivated us to study the scriptures more.

Yes, it did motivate me to study, but I didn't appreciate the circumstances in the least. So, when my husband basically said "sure, whatever you want" I got mad and decided it would be best if I weren't present for this particular service and I left, coming back when the service was over to pick my family up.

At that time, the asst. pastor cornered me and wanted to talk to me in his office, and I told him now was not a good time. I tend to be very vicious when I'm defensive, it's a character flaw, but I can lash out and be very nasty to people when I'm hurt by them. So, I reasoned it would be best not to talk to him while I felt this way, but do it another time when I was calmer.

So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh:

I responded by giving him the names of the top three churches I wanted to visit.

He still doesn't think we should leave though, feeling that we should wait and see what the new pastor, when he's hired, is like. Maybe things will get better.

Considering the asst. pastor is on the search committee and most of the members publicly have acknowledged that they line up with him doctrinally, I doubt the doctrinal issue will be fixed when a new pastor is hired.

In spite of making things better, hubby going to talk to the asst. pastor seems to have made things worse. I'm ready to throw in the towel, and my husband isn't. We're still where we started.
 

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Posted by Farmgirl (Member # 5567) on :
 
Is this the pastor that is leaving?

This is way out of line. I think finally your husband was able to see that.

I hope you do visit some other churches. I know it is very hard to uproot, though, from long-time friends, especially for your kids if they are involved in the church much.

(If you were down here, I would certainly invite you to my church) That would be great!

Farmgirl
 

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Posted by Derrell (Member # 6062) on :
 
(((Belle))) I hope you can find peace. I think the pastor should be more sensitive to your concerns. I thought a pastor was responsible for the spiritual welfare of all his parishoners, not just those who completely agree with him.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

quote:

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Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.

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quote:

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So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh

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Make sure Wes knows why you wouldn't talk to him. I've done stupid things like this with my wife before, as well, and always felt really bad afterwards for not trusting her instincts instead of thinking she was the bad guy.
 

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Posted by Tristan (Member # 1670) on :
 
If someone put me in front of an audience and criticized my beliefs without giving me a chance to rebut, I'd be mad as a wet hen. That's incredibly rude and, in my opinion, not something a congregation should tolerate in a pastor. Perhaps the next pastor will be an improvement, but to me it sounds as if the problem is larger than a single individual.

[ January 13, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Tristan ]
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
No, our pastor has been gone for some months. This is the asst. pastor that is currently leading us until we hire someone new.

Wes doesn't see the doctrine as being too big of an issue because we agree on so many more points than we disagree on. And truly, I hate to hear of congregations splitting over things that don't have much import in the grand scheme. I mean, if you're both evangelical protestant Christians, and you have a doctrinal issue, you already agree on so many other things, it's almost as if you're inventing things to disagree over.

Like most of my family is southern Baptist. I disagree with the southern baptists on certain points, but they are still Christian, and so am I. When you're disagreening over eschatological views, and debating amillennial covenant theology vs. premillennial dispensationalism, well, most of the congregation doesn't know the terms, or even cares. So, it's not enough of a reason in and of itself to leave a church over those types of doctrinal differences (at least, not to me, I admit congregations have split over such things many times in the past)and when you're interested enough to dig that deep, and take it to that level, you'd be hard pressed to find a church that lines up with you identically in every way anyway.

The doctrinal issues by themselves might not be reason to leave, but I feel like on top of my other problems with this church, they are. Unfortunately, my husband doesn't see it that way.
 

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Posted by dread pirate romany (Member # 6869) on :
 
Bellle, I don't blame you for stomping out. Singling you out that way is just so disrespectful.
 

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Posted by Vána (Member # 6593) on :
 
Belle, from your last post, I know that if it was me, I'd leave. I hope that you at least make Wes let the family visit those other churches a couple times each. Even if it's your church one week, visiting the next, etc., I think that the simple act of moving forward to visit other places will help you cope with waiting to actually leave and find a new congregation.

It's really tough that you and Wes aren't agreeing on this. I've been thinking about your situation for several days now, and it just makes me sad and frustrated for you. So I can just imagine how you're feeling. *sigh* I sure hope you two can work this out with minimal pain on either side.
 

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Posted by Mrs.M (Member # 2943) on :
 
Belle, I am so sorry that you are going through this. I want you to know that I am praying for you to find a church home where every member of your family is happy.
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
I just want to thank all of you for listening to my whining.

Like I said in the first post, none of you can really solve it for me, but just the fact that you care enough to read and offer advice and/or encouragement or hugs, well that makes me feel tons better.

I do appreciate you guys.
 

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Posted by PSI Teleport (Member # 5545) on :
 
Sometimes I think churches should have something like an Open Forum Nite or whatever where members can debate and hash out bits of doctrine, with the implicit understanding that not a bit of the outcome will affect the way the church does its business.
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 

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Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and then proceeded to tell everyone why we were wrong and why it was stupid to think the way we did.

. . .

And he did not give us a chance to correct the misconceptions, he told us that "You don't get the opportunity to rebut, maybe at another time I'll let you speak."

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He did what?!? *mind boggles*

Belle, I had to read that three times just to believe that I was reading what was really there. After I read the first sentence, I expected it to say, “Last week, he asked us to stand in front of the congregation, identified us as believers in a more conservative doctrine that he was, and explained that it was a strength of our congregation that we could disagree and still worship together.” Or something like that. When I read what you actually wrote, my jaw literally dropped.

I know your church is not denominationally affiliated, but is this guy credentialed with any larger body? That was so ridiculously inappropriate that . . . that . . . there just are no words.

“maybe at another time I’ll let you speak”?!?! What kind of a power trip is he on?
 

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Posted by Amka (Member # 690) on :
 
Do you think anyone else in that congregation is uncomfortable by this kind of behavior?
 

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Posted by Belle (Member # 2314) on :
 
dkw, I know. It was very disappointing.

He is a graduate from a Bible college, but no formal seminary training. I miss our old pastor so much. We had the same doctrinal disagreements with him, but he would never have done anything like this, he as you stated, liked the fact that we could worship together and belong to the same church body even if we disagreed on minor points.

Yes, there are others that were bothered by what happened, I've heard from a ton of members who called or stopped me in the hall to say they couldn't believe what happened. Some of them agree with us, doctrinally, some of them don't and just thought what happened that Weds. night was out of line.
 

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Posted by Zalmoxis (Member # 2327) on :
 
Belle:

I generally feel that it's not my place to make judgements about how other congregations and churches do things because I don't have the right frames of reference to do so.

BUT

I have to say that as I have read this thread, I've become completely riled up and want very much for you to find a place where you not only feel comfortable but also where your considerable talents and warm personality will be valued and put to good use.
 

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Posted by Olivetta (Member # 6456) on :
 
Could you visit other churches with a friend, or your mom? Just to see how you feel other places? If Wes wants to stay there and the kids do, too, let them.

Seriously, I have known people who were married happily to the end of their days who attened different churches. It shouldn't be that big a deal, though I am concerned by how obviously incomprehensible Wes seems to find your feelings. That's just troubling. As My beloved is fond of saying, "If mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy." Or, the same sentiment restated by another long-married man whose religious faith you guys share (since Ron and I don't) "Happy wife, happy life."
 

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Posted by dkw (Member # 3264) on :
 
Did I read it right that the associate pastor asked Wes to stand up in church the next week and say that he was glad to have been publicly criticized because it made him study more? The implication being that he now agrees with the associate pastor’s view of doctrine?

Does Wes interpret the events some other way?
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 
Belle, do you think any of the others who were also put off by his behaviour will say anything to him about it? Not necessarily about you in particular, but that his behaviour was unacceptable no matter who was on the stage.
 

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Posted by jeniwren (Member # 2002) on :
 
I know people who would not criticize a pastor or minister for anything. Not that they are idiots, but their respect for the position is so great that they find it difficult to criticize the person in the position. Even when the pastor does something that if done by anyone else, they would at least object if not get really hot about.

My husband is one such. He has lines in the sand certainly, but I don't think even this situation would be over it if it were our pastor. Excessive drinking, infidelity or illegal acts would do it though.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Belle, I read through this entire thread not really thinking I'd have anything to add, but copying down some statements of yours that I found particularly important and that illuminated the issue. I've been through this kind of thing and seen it happen to other congregations that I wasn't a part of. I decided to copy a few things back here and comment afterall. I'm not sure I should, so I hope you don't think I'm treading where I ought not.

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I feel like the leadership has some reason they don't want me involved in anything, and yet I feel that God does want me to branch out and be more involved in directly ministering to others, but my church isn't giving me the chance to do that.

If you're wondering if I've ever turned down anything they DID ask me to do, the answer is no. I've done things that I didn't feel called to do, things I didn't even enjoy, simply because I wanted to serve, and I know that sometimes God wants us to stretch outside our comfort zone.

But I do feel strongly that when a person has certain spiritual gifts, and God-given talents and abilities, that God intends those gifts and abilities to be used in serving Him. I don't feel like the church is giving me the opportunity to do so many of the things I feel led toward. I don't know if that means I should just find somewhere else, that God is leaning on me to take my gifts to another place he has planned for me to use them.

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On the flip side - my husband is plugged into this church, he is heavily involved in foreign missions, and my children love it.

So what to do? I feel like if I pressure my husband to leave, I'm being selfish. But my husband says he's tired of seeing me come home from church and cry.

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My mom asked me what did I expect? Two men were trying to solve a problem neither one believed existed.

. . .

He thinks there is always a good excuse for what happened, and that it's just my abominable luck or something that they always seem to coincidentally happen to me.

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It’s a “piling on” effect, one humiliation on top of another, until the sum result is I have to bolster myself, internally building up strength every time I cross the threshold. Instead of being a place where I can come to worship God and fellowship with other believers, it’s become a place that makes me feel like less of a person.

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At that time, the asst. pastor cornered me and wanted to talk to me in his office, and I told him now was not a good time. I tend to be very vicious when I'm defensive, it's a character flaw, but I can lash out and be very nasty to people when I'm hurt by them. So, I reasoned it would be best not to talk to him while I felt this way, but do it another time when I was calmer.

So my husband says if I'm not even willing to want to try and make this work, we may as well go ahead and leave. :sigh:

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So, it's not enough of a reason in and of itself to leave a church over those types of doctrinal differences (at least, not to me, I admit congregations have split over such things many times in the past)and when you're interested enough to dig that deep, and take it to that level, you'd be hard pressed to find a church that lines up with you identically in every way anyway.

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What is the doctrinal difference? Could you explain that a little more? You give some examples of doctrinal things, but don't say exactly what is going on. I understand it may be something you don't want to "put to Hatrack" for debate.

I'm thinking now of your husband's involvement in foreign missions. That is a big thing to ask someone else to give up. So if you want to move churches, I'd say you have to be willing to do it alone, or take a middle road- leave for now so the A.P. knows he's gone too far, but leave open the possibility that you'll give the new pastor a chance when he arrives.
 

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Posted by ctm (Member # 6525) on :
 
You know, Belle, I hate to say this but I kinda get the feeling your AP would like it if you left, like he's trying to push you out-- not just you, your whole family. To criticize you in front of the congregastion, then to ask your husband to stand up and say how helpful it was i unbelievable! Could he possibly be that clueless about how inappropriate that is?

I'm currently reading a devotional to help with my divorce, and the author talks over and over about how a church family should be a supportive and healing one. He says if your church isn't then it's time to find a new one. I think that's good advice in general...
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
OMG!!!

I couldn't resist linking to this:

Christian Hanky Code

This could really solve some problems.
 

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Posted by Primal Curve (Member # 3587) on :
 
Belle,

I can only thing of one instance where my parents left a church they were actively involed in (apart from the many times they've moved).

We were going to a Baptist church in Racine, WI. One of my Mother's long-time friends' husband was the Associate Pastor there. My Dad was never a big fan of the church (he likes contemporary worship and a more casual dress code), but my Mom really liked it because it was a lot like the churches her Father pastored.

Well, one day, the head Pastor called our friend into his office to tell him something. It turns out that the head Pastor felt that the church needed to attract a younger crowd and that he needed to bring in a new Associate Pastor to head up the changes he felt were necessary. So, he effectively fired the Associate Pastor because he was old. Idiotic.

So, we left and found a church where we were all happy. They had contemporary and traditional worship. They had a vibrant youth program and a strong base in the 50+ crowd. I still miss that church (it's too far for me to go every Sunday).
 

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Posted by Trisha the Severe Hottie (Member # 6000) on :
 
bob Imagines the humorous disasters that could ensue after accidentally washing in hot rather than cold water.
 

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Posted by Bob_Scopatz (Member # 1227) on :
 
Yeah, you know...that site could've been a lot funnier if the guy doing it hadn't had such a snarky attitude about Christianity in general.

It's really a clever idea.

Oh well. Still kind of funny and I think it's sort of appropriate to Belle's situation.

Belle -- thanks for the kind words. I really hope I haven't said anything too intrusive. I view these things as VERY delicate situations (despite my just having posted the hanky code).
 

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Posted by Elizabeth (Member # 5218) on :
 
Belle, I have not read the whole thread, I'm sorry.(sometimes they move so fast!)

However, it sounds almost like the guy is creating a cult, not a church.

I hope you can find peace in this matter. How difficult it must be. our church is in upheaval right now, and many "pillars" have left. it makes me so very sad.
 

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Posted by zgator (Member # 3833) on :
 

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I know people who would not criticize a pastor or minister for anything. Not that they are idiots, but their respect for the position is so great that they find it difficult to criticize the person in the position. Even when the pastor does something that if done by anyone else, they would at least object if not get really hot about.

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I'm a Baha'i, so i can't quote Bible verses...

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Since when? Baha'is can quote the Bible all they want, gingerjam; the Bible is considered part of scripture.

It's not like the Kitab-i-Aqdas has REPLACED the Bible for Baha'is; it supplements it.
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Sorry TomDavidson i didn't mean that I'm not allowed to quote the Bible, i meant that I myself don't trust my memory or can't bring to mind appropriate Bible verses, and do them justice.
 

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Posted by TomDavidson (Member # 124) on :
 
No problem. I'm hardly the guy to be citing you on Baha'i orthodoxy, anyway.
 

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Posted by gingerjam (Member # 7113) on :
 
Belle, there's really nothing much more i can think of to add to what others have said, but I really feel for you and wish i could give you a great big hug.
 

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Posted by quidscribis (Member # 5124) on :
 
Belle, ain't much I can add, either. And yet, somehow, I'm going to anyway.

What you said about speaking up about depression and challenges and all that - I am so completely and totally on your side on this. It is vitally important. Too many people - women in particular it seems to me, but perhaps that's only because I have closer relationships with women - are caught up in trying to be perfect or the appearance of perfect without realizing that it's enough to be better than you were before. Too many get depressed and worn out and think they aren't doing enough, and they spread themselves too thin. And to top that off with histories of abuse or mental illnesses or problems of whatever nature you want to throw in, and they feel unworthy . . . Yes, you DO have to speak up. You're absolutely right. I'm vocal about my history, and while it was a hindrance in church in Canada (although it was probably more my singleness than anything else - they had no idea what to do with a single woman in her thirties, so they just ignored me), I didn't care. I had a lot of women tell me their history and say that they'd never talked to anyone else about it before because they were too scared. It gave them hope and strength.

You are valuable. You are important. You are helping other people. Whether the ministry at your church recognizes it or not, you are doing what's right. It's unfortunate that you have to go through this with them, and it's even more unfortunate that they don't understand. Just know that there are those who recognize your value.

I think your decision to meet with assistant pastor with hubby in hand and list of things to talk about is a good idea. I wish you the best of luck and hope that you get something resolved. Good luck!
 

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Posted by mackillian (Member # 586) on :
 
I hope you get enough strength as you need to get through this.
 

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